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lamboguy
07-02-2015, 06:55 AM
my horse bucked his shin on monday after working at the track, he is also pretty studdish when he is in his stall. he is looking around for other horses and tries to jump the web.

so today my trainer is going to cut him and pinfire both shins. usually when i pinfire them on the farm we go all the way in and scrape the shins. usually after a couple of days we can take the horse back to the track and jog him and start back in with full training about a month after the procedure. on this one my trainer tells me that he won't have to go all the way and he will be back training in 2 weeks.

you never want to stop on a young horse when they are doing great like mine has been doing, hopefully my horse comes back even better after he goes through all this today.

nearco
07-02-2015, 07:39 AM
Wow.
People still pinfire in the year of our lord two thousand and fifteen?

barbaric.

chadk66
07-02-2015, 08:17 AM
I'm sure it's still done. Some chronic cases need it for sure. It's not nearly as barbaric as some think. It's more ugly than anything. I think I pin fired two horses the whole time I trained.

Ruffian1
07-02-2015, 08:23 AM
Pinfire 3 days after he bucks??

Cut him at the same time ?

I guess you learn something new everyday. Never heard of either of these from a timing point of view.

nijinski
07-02-2015, 08:54 AM
my horse bucked his shin on monday after working at the track, he is also pretty studdish when he is in his stall. he is looking around for other horses and tries to jump the web.

so today my trainer is going to cut him and pinfire both shins. usually when i pinfire them on the farm we go all the way in and scrape the shins. usually after a couple of days we can take the horse back to the track and jog him and start back in with full training about a month after the procedure. on this one my trainer tells me that he won't have to go all the way and he will be back training in 2 weeks.

you never want to stop on a young horse when they are doing great like mine has been doing, hopefully my horse comes back even better after he goes through all this today.

Your last paragraph is very concerning . If you have been an owner
as you say for a while , what has changed that a young horse can get
back this fast with bucked shins ? Trainers always stop on them .
Some vets still say the pin firing doesn't work ,that' they suggest the
turnout and time and some jogging to get them back . .

Fager Fan
07-02-2015, 10:13 AM
Unless this horse I chronic and it doesn't take much at all to make him shin sore, then he shouldn't be pinfired. From the limited info given, it sounds like your trainer is overloading the horse (that's why he bucked). Also I'm gathering he's very young, and he's already being studdish? Maybe he doesn't have the pedigree to make keeping him intact makes sense, but I'm getting the impression that your trainer's making things easy on himself instead of doing what's right for the horse.

Ruffian1
07-02-2015, 10:19 AM
Unless this horse I chronic and it doesn't take much at all to make him shin sore, then he shouldn't be pinfired. From the limited info given, it sounds like your trainer is overloading the horse (that's why he bucked). Also I'm gathering he's very young, and he's already being studdish? Maybe he doesn't have the pedigree to make keeping him intact makes sense, but I'm getting the impression that your trainer's making things easy on himself instead of doing what's right for the horse.

Great point.
Is this horse 2?
Or 3 or 4?

chadk66
07-02-2015, 11:37 AM
I'm a firm believe that bucked shins, in the majority of the cases, is due to speed work before the horse has enough base under them. It takes a hell of a long time at a mile or a mile and a half galloping to get enough base under them. I routinely galloped my babies two to three miles a day. One year I had twenty two year olds. eighteen of them raced. zero bucked shins. However, we trained them all winter on a high speed tread mill. The university of MN did a study (we actually used their treadmill) on two year olds. They determined that the treadmill actually built better bone density on the front of the cannon bone (where horses buck shins) than galloping on a track did. I took that with a grain of salt. But then that winter's results pretty much support their findings. But I never really had much problem with shin bucking anyway. I actually had a couple three year olds that were unraced as two year olds shin buck.

Tall One
07-02-2015, 01:05 PM
Somewhat along the same line, chad, but would aqua therapy add to the 2yo's base as well, or is that strictly for rehab purposes? Thanks.

lamboguy
07-02-2015, 01:21 PM
this is the 2nd one that i have had that bucked this year. so far we have 5 msw 2 yo winners in Gulfstream, there is 1 in today in Belmont's 4th race that should run well, HOOSIER SCOUT. she can run, but have no idea about the rest of the field and i have no idea how she has been training since she has been up north, i don't own the horse.

my horse was has trained with this one and all the others that have won already in Ocala. he has either stayed with them all or finished in front of them and he started about 6 weeks behind them.

its always a fine line when you attempt to lean on a young horse. you want them to stay sound, but you don't want them to get bored. my horse probably did go to fast, he worked in 48.1 on monday with a very expensive horse that he finished 2 lengths in front of.

chadk66
07-02-2015, 09:23 PM
Somewhat along the same line, chad, but would aqua therapy add to the 2yo's base as well, or is that strictly for rehab purposes? Thanks.I'd say rehab basically. swimming doesn't build bone density.

magwell
07-02-2015, 09:58 PM
When a 2 yr old starts getting sore shins it's natures way of telling you your doing too much too soon and should stop, if you catch it early and you can, by just feeling those shins every day before they go to the track, the first time the horse shows a little tenderness stop. Pinfiring is barbaric, it just forces you wait which you should anyway, the horse just isn't ready for the amount of training your doing if you catch it early may only need couple weeks to cool it down but once they "buck out" its 2 3 months or more to heal and than the horse relates training to pain (they don't forget)......

CryingForTheHorses
07-04-2015, 01:24 PM
my horse bucked his shin on monday after working at the track, he is also pretty studdish when he is in his stall. he is looking around for other horses and tries to jump the web.

so today my trainer is going to cut him and pinfire both shins. usually when i pinfire them on the farm we go all the way in and scrape the shins. usually after a couple of days we can take the horse back to the track and jog him and start back in with full training about a month after the procedure. on this one my trainer tells me that he won't have to go all the way and he will be back training in 2 weeks.

you never want to stop on a young horse when they are doing great like mine has been doing, hopefully my horse comes back even better after he goes through all this today.



Sounds like you need to stop on this one Lambo or you wont have a 3yo .Ive never heard of scraping the shins when you pinfire ,Thats a different procedure. Castrating and pinfiring at the same time can lead to some problems,If you cant jog or walk the horse,He can swell up badly in behind,Giving the horse Penicillin may help him but if his shins are pinfired,You will get a false healing in front.I wouldnt do both,Id cut him first,Let them shins cool out and go from there..JMO

lamboguy
07-04-2015, 02:31 PM
Sounds like you need to stop on this one Lambo or you wont have a 3yo .Ive never heard of scraping the shins when you pinfire ,Thats a different procedure. Castrating and pinfiring at the same time can lead to some problems,If you cant jog or walk the horse,He can swell up badly in behind,Giving the horse Penicillin may help him but if his shins are pinfired,You will get a false healing in front.I wouldnt do both,Id cut him first,Let them shins cool out and go from there..JMOhe got cut tuesday, and pinfired friday. he walked around the shed row today for about 20 minutes and is doing well so far.

lamboguy
08-23-2015, 10:32 PM
this guy finally got his first race under his belt. he ran in sunday's 6th race at Monmouth. he wind up running third and might have won with a different ride in that race. he went off at 30-1 and beat about $1.5 million worth of horse that finished behind him, i only paid $5000 for him and i think i probably would have won any MSW New York bred race this year at Saratoga with him. i guess i better learn how to read a condition book better!

smokinjoe@bp
08-24-2015, 06:35 PM
amazing,bucked shins in july and debuts 6 weeks later,i am impressed.

Brogan
08-25-2015, 03:17 PM
amazing,bucked shins in july and debuts 6 weeks later,i am impressed.
Did a pinfire get confused with a blister?

lamboguy
08-25-2015, 05:52 PM
Did a pinfire get confused with a blister?nope

green80
08-25-2015, 06:14 PM
this guy finally got his first race under his belt. he ran in sunday's 6th race at Monmouth. he wind up running third and might have won with a different ride in that race. he went off at 30-1 and beat about $1.5 million worth of horse that finished behind him, i only paid $5000 for him and i think i probably would have won any MSW New York bred race this year at Saratoga with him. i guess i better learn how to read a condition book better!

yes, you could run with state-breds for over twice the purse, no brainer.

eqitec
08-26-2015, 07:25 AM
Perhaps the attached info graphic of this horse's training schedule from my research can add value to this discussion.

Assuming accuracy of the workout reporting for this horse, is it being suggested that the string of 3F works so close together was too much too soon for this 2YO, leading to the bucked shins?

chadk66
08-26-2015, 05:47 PM
gate works are really hard on two year old shins.

forced89
08-27-2015, 09:34 AM
Maybe I have been lucky but I have probably only had one, maybe two 2 yo's shin buck in over 25 years. What I do is break and train Feb - May; turn out Jun - Aug; put back in training in Sep. The disadvantage is obviously that I don't get to race my 2 yo's until Dec - Jan.

chadk66
08-27-2015, 09:46 AM
Maybe I have been lucky but I have probably only had one, maybe two 2 yo's shin buck in over 25 years. What I do is break and train Feb - May; turn out Jun - Aug; put back in training in Sep. The disadvantage is obviously that I don't get to race my 2 yo's until Dec - Jan.that's an excellent program. And no doubt why you have so few issues.

Brogan
08-27-2015, 01:41 PM
that's an excellent program. And no doubt why you have so few issues.
Every backsider refers to 2yo's as "babies," and for the best long term results you need to treat them gently.

chadk66
08-27-2015, 03:01 PM
Every backsider refers to 2yo's as "babies," and for the best long term results you need to treat them gently.you would be correct

lamboguy
08-27-2015, 03:38 PM
Perhaps the attached info graphic of this horse's training schedule from my research can add value to this discussion.

Assuming accuracy of the workout reporting for this horse, is it being suggested that the string of 3F works so close together was too much too soon for this 2YO, leading to the bucked shins?
throw in the fact that this is not a real big horse and that would probably be the reason for him to buck. he held up remarkably well in the training center in ocala, he just did everything you asked of him and kept going forward every day.

after his race he has ate up real good but has not yet attacked his feed tub. he went back to the track today after 3 days of walking and jogged. tomorrow he will strong gallop a mile and go from there.

my race came as a real slow one, from what looked before the race to be a real tough one. my horse ran real good and should make an improvement next time out. as of now i have no idea where he is going to show up.

yesterday i wound up buying his sister at OBS for $3000. she is also a small horse but a later foal than this one. she was hip 417.

i never spent any big money at sales, i have never scoped or payed for x-rays either.

chadk66
08-27-2015, 05:39 PM
it surprises me how many scope and xray yearlings at sales. puzzles me actually. but last year in the MN yearling sale, what appeared on paper to easily be the sales topper, failed both scope and xrays. so what do I know

lamboguy
08-27-2015, 06:03 PM
it surprises me how many scope and xray yearlings at sales. puzzles me actually. but last year in the MN yearling sale, what appeared on paper to easily be the sales topper, failed both scope and xrays. so what do I knowi have bought lots of horses, so to me its not worth paying $75 for a scope and today most of the sales have the xrays in their repository's. i have bought horses that have had breathing problems that everyone else has passed on and have done well with them. but i understand its not for everyone.

i stopped buying horses the last few years, i only buy 1 a year just to be in the game in a very small way these days.

chadk66
08-27-2015, 08:00 PM
now days it seems like more people want to disqualify a horse rather than qualify it. it's like it's easier for them to disqualify than qualify.

magwell
08-27-2015, 10:42 PM
now days it seems like more people want to disqualify a horse rather than qualify it. it's like it's easier for them to disqualify than qualify.The vets get paid no matter if they OK the horse or not.....;)

lamboguy
08-28-2015, 12:01 AM
its always easier to give a negative report because there is less chance of getting sued.

when you go to sales today you have these guys running around the place with instruments that measure the size of the horse's heart's. they charge pretty good for this. anyone spending big money on horses are never going to trust someone else's scope. its also pretty easy for the winning bidder to kick the sale these days once they have done their own examination.

chadk66
08-28-2015, 08:38 AM
well they usually save the scope video and the xrays are clearly marked. I'm not sure why nobody trusts somebody elses scope job. Isn't it Keeneland that has a rule if you buy a yearling you have 48 hours to return if it doesn't clear the vet.

tholl
08-28-2015, 09:32 AM
In the chart he is still listed as a colt??

CryingForTheHorses
08-28-2015, 07:39 PM
The way they have these sales set up,They have a undertack day and you would think you were at Hialeah watching the quarter horses,Babies breezing in 34,Thats just crazy..I like to buy the ones who havent breezed or just gallop..Funny thing is,If your 2yo didnt breeze,He automatically has something wrong with him!..Also very iffy buying these breezed babies as they are treated just like they are going to the races..Yes Chad ,If something is amiss within 48 hour of any sale..The baby goes back.Scoping and re-scoping and re scoping is what they do,I used to think running your 2yo in Oct or Nov was too early,Now they are running 2yo's in Apr..No wonder we dont have any horses!

chadk66
08-28-2015, 07:50 PM
they have been running two years olds very early for many years. which is actually quite puzzling. Now days owners/trainers fret over running back in less than three weeks with older horses. some every four to six weeks. Like they are the most fragile things on earth. Yet they will grind the hell out of a baby and think nothing of it. It baffles me to no end. Running babies in June/July is pushing it unless you have a pile of foundation under them. I always had a lot of babies and had good success with them. I had always considered being very persistent on not running two year olds until late summer or fall. But I then came to the conclusion that these owners would just give them to somebody else. I figured they were safer with me. So I continued with them. And I really enjoyed them the majority of the time.