Met Mile

[Valuist]

Maybe I'm biased because I liked Bowman's Band but I really thought he was the best horse in the race today. The early fractions weren't that hot; he had to close into the soft pace then he got shut off a bit between the 3/16 and 1/8th pole. He had to alter course a bit then really got rolling again. Pico Central is a pretty tough miler. I wonder if they will go to the BC Mile; he blew Hard Buck away on the turf in S. America and Hard Buck is a graded stakes winner on the turf in the US.

Ironic how De Soreux babied Azeri and then Lukas just throws the kitchen sink at her; first sprinting, then miling against Grade 1 males. What's next? Maybe DWL can enter her in the Red Smith Cap going long on the grass.:confused:

Funny Cide?? It looks like Gander will have some competition in those NY bred route races with Funny Cide and Friends Lake likely to join the mix of the Empire State races.

[PaceAdvantage]

Jeez. How many people (when Azeri was up for Horse Of The Year honors) were complaining how she DID NOT beat males or even RACE against them, thus she didn't DESERVE the award? I'll answer my own question...


ALOT OF PEOPLE


Now that she runs against males, you knock the connections for trying....I DON'T GET IT!

[SAL]

Dang PA, you've been a strong supporter of DWL.

But I said it prior to the race and I'll say it now. It was a mistake to run her there. She's not good enough. Period.

Back to females and 2 turns. And grass may not be a bad idea either.

[PaceAdvantage]

Lukas has nothing to do with this. And I would further add that the main reason Azeri was in the Met Mile was not Lukas, but Paulson, not that there is anything wrong with that...but you should remember that Lukas is only the trainer, not the owner.

This does not negate the point that people were clamoring for her to run against the boys not too long ago, but now, for whatever reason, it's a bad thing?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by SAL
Back to females and 2 turns. And grass may not be a bad idea either.

Females and Grass got me in lots of trouble when I was young....

Be careful! !!

[cj]

Not blaming DW, but this was a bad spot. One turn mile with much faster speed types signed on was a poor placement. I had her as a complete non-contender in the race, and she ran just like one. When she couldn't beat a very suspect F & M field around one bend, shouldn't a light have went off?

[SAL]

Lukas has everything to do with this. One of the trainer's main duties is to place the horses in their proper spot.

If Lukas is such a puppet and ran Azeri in a race he didn't want her in, then I've lost what little respect I have for him.

I am not one of the people that ever thought she should race against males. And I have bet females against males (Soviet Problem in the BC sprint comes to mind). She maybe should have tried a Grade 3 race against males to see where she stood abilitywise before tackling as tough a race as the Met Mile

[cj]

Sal,

Not just that, but how about a second turn at least? If you are going to throw her in, make it at her best game, which is two turn routes!

[WINMANWIN]

Word has it owner Allan Paulson only wants to run her in Grade 1
races period. If its not a GRADE ONE RACE she will not RUN.

[Tom]

Paulson is an idiot if that's what he thinks. And if it was his decsion to run her in the MEt, the I am sure he is one.
To me, it is painfully obvious that Azeri is well past her prime. Running her in the Met was like Willie Mays in his last WS-yeah, once great, but there he was, falling down like an old man.
Her race jsut befreo the Met showed she was not herself.

[Valuist]

PA-

There's a big difference re: those who said she should've faced males in other years. When she was a legitimate Horse of the Year candidate, it was a must that she take on males. After losing to Nafzger's second best mare in his barn, nobody considered her a Horse of the Year candidate; thus, no need to run in a spot where she basically had zero chance. But thanks to Paulson, the payoffs in the race yesterday got a bit juiced up.

BTW, how on earth could NYRA call that surface "fast"?? Kind of reminds me of Belmont day last year when Belmont got hit by torrential rains and was listed as good for a decent portion of the card.

[PaceAdvantage]

Did she or did she not run ONE OF HER CAREER BEST SPEED FIGURES in her return race this year? Past her prime? I don't think so.....poorly spotted in her last, yes, but that was only proven with 20/20 hindsight.

They took a shot. Move on.

Do we bash every owner/trainer who tries their horse on turf but is proven wrong with a poor performance? No. Taking shots is part of the game, and I wish more would have the balls to do it.

[delayjf]

I'd have to agree with PA, Lukas did what he was told. If he had a choice as to what Grade I race against males to run against, then he does share some blame. Listening to him in the pre race interviews sounds like he had a lot of second thoughts.

From Lukas's perspective, and I think this is Key. Lukas is not having a great year, and he's lost some big owners (Overbrook Farms or Padula, I'm not sure which) and he's probably thinking of the future with Paulson as his new deep pocket owner.

[WINMANWIN]

Originally posted by delayjf
I'd have to agree with PA, Lukas did what he was told. If he had a choice as to what Grade I race against males to run against, then he does share some blame. Listening to him in the pre race interviews sounds like he had a lot of second thoughts.

From Lukas's perspective, and I think this is Key. Lukas is not having a great year, and he's lost some big owners (Overbrook Farms or Padula, I'm not sure which) and he's probably thinking of the future with Paulson as his new deep pocket owner.

Lukas was quoted "we took a shot to be great " When you do it, you calculate the ups and downs of it, and I dont think we hurt
anything. Barcly Tagg also said people keep telling me funny cide is a true miler Tagg said HE'S NOT A MILER, sometimes you have to prove it to everyboday........Seems like the Sackatoga Owners were telling Tagg he's a Miler.......BTW, William T Young who was Lukas main client for years, passed on recently or mths ago, and
Padau dumped him 2 or 3 years ago.............
:eek:

[Valuist]

PA-

You can't compare Azeri to everyday horses. When you are at the top (or formerly were) everything gets scrutinized more. Nobody would've faulted the connections for trying the Met 2 years ago. That last race against Mayo On the Side should've been enough for the connections to stick to 2 turns.

BTW, how do we know that it was "all up to the owners"? So they let Laura De Seroux call ALL the shots before, give the horse to the megalomaniac Lukas and don't give him any say? I don't believe it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I never said it was all up to the owners. Where did I say this?

What I said was, if you are going to bash the connections, you have to remember that the owner has a big say in what happens to their horse. I think this was the point I was trying to get across.

I think the main reason Azeri ran against males is because Paulson has been saying he wanted to do this for quite some time, even before Lukas came onto the scene. In this case, I think you have to look to the owner more than the trainer for this spot.

And if for some reason I confused you with the "Lukas has nothing to do with this" line from a few posts back, let me explain:

What I meant was that at that point in the discussion, I was only talking about the race and the spot in terms of the horse, Azeri, and whether or not she "deserved" to be in the race. SAL had said I'd been a strong supporter of Lukas in the past, and in my reply, I wanted it to be known that I was supported Azeri being in the Met Mile, and that I thought it was a good spot for her considering the field she was facing. I wasn't basing my support for Azeri's spot in the Met Mile on my support of Lukas as a trainer. That's what I meant by "Lukas has nothing to do with this" I did not mean to imply that I thought Lukas had nothing to do with the decision to run her. I'm sure he had some input.

[Valuist]

The comment about being "all up to the owners" wasn't directed at you specifically. It was mentioned earlier in the thread. All I'm saying is that is seems funny De Sereux had total say in where the horse ran and then a high profile big time trainer like Lukas has to let Paulson tell him what to do. Possible? Sure. Likely? I doubt it.

[cj]

Sometimes you have to shake your head and wonder what the hell the connections are thinking. Funny Cide's two big wins are at 9.5 and 10 furlongs. This makes him a mile horse how? Funny Cide is still capable of winning some pretty darn good races by my numbers, but he has to be put in the right spot. A one turn mile is not that spot!

[SAL]

PA, you're right, I misunderstood your post. I now understand what you were trying get across.

And in my opinion, a one-turn mile is more like an elongated sprint, very often with sprinter's fractions. A lot of the time sprinters dominate this type of race. Both Funny Cide and Azeri are true routers. They were at a disadvantage in this race.

I think Azeri will return to what she does best and compete with the best females in the US. Funny Cide may indeed need G3 or statebred competition to return to the winner's circle.

[WINMANWIN]

Lets read between the lines :rolleyes: When Paulson publicly or privately said he wants AZERI only to run in GRADE 1 RACES
Lukas is not calling the shots, Granted, SHOTS IN GRADE 1'S
Lukas would probably agree with Paulson as this is a Special Filly, and if she has to run in Grade 2's or 3's its time to go to the breeding shed. Plus, hes looking at Paulson for the future Hopefully, He doesn't want to rattle a prominent Owner, that
possibly can put him on tha map again.So, if AZERI cant WIN in Grade 1's this year, its breeding time !

[cj]

She's already won a G1 this year, around two turns against her own sex. No reason she can't keep doing that.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Do we bash every owner/trainer who tries their horse on turf but is proven wrong with a poor performance?

I don't bash em........... I am usually betting on them.........

[PaceAdvantage]

I think we can all agree that Azeri in the Met Mile was a poor idea in hindsight....for a myriad of reasons, some we will never know.

All I was trying to say was it was mighty sporting of them to give it a go, and for that, they should be commended.

I'm not really looking for people to agree with me, just understand where I am coming from....

[cj]

I have no problem with them running her against males, but sometimes, handicappers know more than the connections about placement. This, as I said in foresight, was a very poor choice. Speed horses who can't make the lead or pressers who have to go faster than usual to stay in touch with the pace are the worst bets in racing. Funny Cide and Azeri both fit the bill.

Why not the Pimlico Special? The Mass Cap would have been even better. The Iselin at Mth in August has been pretty weak lately. Best, all are around two turns. Either Funny Cide or Azeri could compete in those races in my opinion. But the Met, no way in hell. I'm not blaming them for trying, just saying they aren't very good handicappers.

[JustRalph]

Amen CJ! I see this all the time. And make some money with it too. But on the flip side of the coin we have Jerkins..........
He knows how to place them.........when they are ready and sitting on a good race.

[azibuck]

This was mainly about Azeri before so I just posted the "Fire Barclay Tagg" thread before I saw this one started mentioning FC.

I disagree that it was the wrong spot. What PA just said about Azeri, that it looks like a bad idea in hindsight, could be true of FC too -- but it would have been more true if the pace was hotter.

I won't repeat my whole thread, but if FC can't finish strong laying off 23.2/46 fractions, whether it's one turn or five turns, something's not right. Bottom line is he didn't fire and I don't think it had anything to do with the "spot".

Look at it this way, going in to the race did you think FC could run a mile (against anyone, anywhere) in 1:35? I don't see how you couldn't.

[WINMANWIN]

CAPPING TIDBIT at Belmont, I heard that Belmont just recently
changed run-ups for 1 mile & other distance races below a mile I believe. Another words, the times will be different, On the ny otb show, Drew Molica- Richard Migliore's agent said 6 furls was like 30 to 50 yards different and the mile was also altered, I believe it was dangerous for the jocks, if they kept it the same way, You would think it would be published somewhere, or like Dave Johnson said, He's on the Monday show also, Possibly the racing form could have an asterisk to let us know.....:mad:

[cj]

Originally posted by azibuck
...

I won't repeat my whole thread, but if FC can't finish strong laying off 23.2/46 fractions, whether it's one turn or five turns, something's not right...

...going in to the race did you think FC could run a mile (against anyone, anywhere) in 1:35? I don't see how you couldn't.

I never, ever look at raw times, so I can't answer your question until I get a chance to do the figures for the race.

This I will say, a presser at longer distances is seldom able to stay close to the pace in a one turn mile without being pushed hard and wearing itself out. Congaree was one exception, but then again, he wasn't really that good of a router, so maybe not.

[cj]

Originally posted by WINMANWIN
CAPPING TIDBIT at Belmont, I heard that Belmont just recently
changed run-ups for 1 mile & other distance races below a mile I believe. Another words, the times will be different, On the ny otb show, Drew Molica- Richard Migliore's agent said 6 furls was like 30 to 50 yards different and the mile was also altered, I believe it was dangerous for the jocks, if they kept it the same way, You would think it would be published somewhere, or like Dave Johnson said, He's on the Monday show also, Possibly the racing form could have an asterisk to let us know.....:mad:

It used to be 60 feet, now its 5 feet...wasn't really too interested in sharing this tidbit though ;) Thanks WIN :p

[WINMANWIN]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
It used to be 60 feet, now its 5 feet...wasn't really too interested in sharing this tidbit though ;) Thanks WIN :p

C.J. ball park figure, the races are gonna come up SLOWER now,
with the mile, its only 5 feet, no biggie,but the shorter distances
can reflect 1 second or more slower, I would think the pp's will
adjust for this shortly....will see......:confused: If they dont It's another blemish on the game.....

[cj]

Actually WIN, a 55 foot difference is pretty big in the runup. It doesn't change final times much, but it changes the early fractions for sure.

[Valuist]

That might help explain that :23 2/5 opener.

Surprised there hasn't been any talk of NYRA calling the track fast for the last few races on Monday. At best it was "wet fast". Like I said earlier, the track on Belmont day last year looked like a monsoon hit it and several races run over puddles were called "good". This wasn't quite as bad but still a very misleading track condition.

[OTM Al]

I can't recall NYRA using the Wet Fast designation in the past couple years.