NBA Hot Stove

[lansdale]

Spurs have traded Splitter to Hawks for as yet, unspecified player(s)? - deal seems to be still in progress. Have to agree with speculation that they wouldn't have pulled the trigger unless they thought LMA was in the bag - he seems to have blown off L.A.. Also Danny Green re-signed for $45 million/4 yr.. If Splitter's calf injury no longer a question-mark, looks like a good deal for Hawks, even with Millsap to Orlando but, who knows? Spurs don't make bad deals. If, indeed, LMA to Spurs will be a hella late-round West playoffs.

[Robert Fischer]

Seems to be an exciting Free-Agent period. Some really good ones are true free agents. A few stand to re-shape teams/conferences, and a few stand to be really overpaid :).

[Stillriledup]

Seems likely LMA to Spurs. They're going to be a tough team to beat once again.

[lansdale]

Seems to be an exciting Free-Agent period. Some really good ones are true free agents. A few stand to re-shape teams/conferences, and a few stand to be really overpaid :).

Seems like about 100 FA out there not, and while most probably stay with their teams, some interesting movement/shifting already. BTW, how overpaid? Does Johnny Depp deserve $25 million for two months work, but LBJ not deserve $17 for 6 mos.? ;-).

[lansdale]

Seems likely LMA to Spurs. They're going to be a tough team to beat once again.

Since Blazers say he's definitely not coming back, does look like a done deal. With Stephenson and now Pierce to Clips, (and unless DJ switches L.A. teams) both teams will be stronger next year.

[Robert Fischer]

Greg Monroe just signed a 3 year, $50 Million max-contract w/ the Bucks.

These are the type of signings that seem to make zero sense.

Here's a guy who is a Big Man in a league dominated by guards and scoring forwards.
He averaged 16pts 10rebounds on a Detroit team that went 32-50 in the east.



How in the world is this guy a "max" contract guy?

He's a fringe all-star at best.

it's nice that he's a solid Big Man, but a solid Big Man is supposed to be your 4th or 5th best player on a championship contender.
How in the world can you give a solid Big Man a "max" contract and hope to build any kind of team?

[cj]

Greg Monroe just signed a 3 year, $50 Million max-contract w/ the Bucks.

These are the type of signings that seem to make zero sense.

Here's a guy who is a Big Man in a league dominated by guards and scoring forwards.
He averaged 16pts 10rebounds on a Detroit team that went 32-50 in the east.



How in the world is this guy a "max" contract guy?

He's a fringe all-star at best.

it's nice that he's a solid Big Man, but a solid Big Man is supposed to be your 4th or 5th best player on a championship contender.
How in the world can you give a solid Big Man a "max" contract and hope to build any kind of team?

"Max" contracts are what make these things look silly. Lebron is probably worth 200 million a year to a team, while Monroe probably is worth the max he got. But it is all skewed by the "max" number.

[Robert Fischer]

"Max" contracts are what make these things look silly. Lebron is probably worth 200 million a year to a team, while Monroe probably is worth the max he got. But it is all skewed by the "max" number.

That's probably true. Less than a 'handful' of guys (LeBron, healthyDurant, ...) are worth far more than the "max" and the contrast between them and the 'mere all-stars' makes it look worse than it is.

The thing that gets teams from that point, is when you start maxing-out on the fringe all-stars and then the salary cap limits you from building the rest of a contending team.

[cj]

That's probably true. Less than a 'handful' of guys (LeBron, healthyDurant, ...) are worth far more than the "max" and the contrast between them and the 'mere all-stars' makes it look worse than it is.

The thing that gets teams from that point, is when you start maxing-out on the fringe all-stars and then the salary cap limits you from building the rest of a contending team.

All the contracts this year are taking into account a big rise in the cap next year.

[Robert Fischer]

Jordan to the Mavs...


I've already made my case here, against interior bigs.

However, a strong season by Dirk and we could see Jordan finding more room to make impact than even with Chris Paul. Dirk Nowitzki's health/production will be key IMO.

[Stillriledup]

Jordan to the Mavs...


I've already made my case here, against interior bigs.

However, a strong season by Dirk and we could see Jordan finding more room to make impact than even with Chris Paul. Dirk Nowitzki's health/production will be key IMO.

This guy got soft and quit on the clippers, he sulked when he was taken out of the game because of the Hack a stuff. Clippers should have known this guys demeanor and desire and got rid of him when they could have gotten something for him. Cips FT percentage just went up. When you collapse like that in the playoffs you need some changes, they need a little more than Stephenson at this point.

Is LMA still available? :D

[cj]

This guy got soft and quit on the clippers, he sulked when he was taken out of the game because of the Hack a stuff. Clippers should have known this guys demeanor and desire and got rid of him when they could have gotten something for him. Cips FT percentage just went up. When you collapse like that in the playoffs you need some changes, they need a little more than Stephenson at this point.

Is LMA still available? :D

Nope, Spurs.

I get all the soft spots about Jordan, but it is still a big loss for the Clippers. Prevailing wisdom had been they could get Tyson Chandler, but they waited too long. Now what?

I sense a first round exit coming up unless they pull a rabbit out of the free agency hat.

[cj]

Jordan to the Mavs...


I've already made my case here, against interior bigs.

However, a strong season by Dirk and we could see Jordan finding more room to make impact than even with Chris Paul. Dirk Nowitzki's health/production will be key IMO.

Of course Dallas will be better, but they aren't going anywhere.

It will come down to Spurs, Warriors, Thunder (if KD is healthy) in the West as it looks right now. I still think the Spurs are declining. They are weak at the point with Parker unless he has a major health revival.

[Robert Fischer]

West has several teams that could be champion caliber if they happen to fire on all cylinders. (no real surprise there)


Clips look amazing when they are on a role, but there are a ton of questions regarding their 'substance'.

Perhaps parting with Jordan will see them finally embracing 'small ball' full time? Could have interesting implications. Still an outsider.

[PressThePace]

Of course Dallas will be better, but they aren't going anywhere.

It will come down to Spurs, Warriors, Thunder (if KD is healthy) in the West as it looks right now. I still think the Spurs are declining. They are weak at the point with Parker unless he has a major health revival.


I agree, especially concerning the Spurs. Aldridge is a great pickup, but he mostly a pick-n-pop guy...not so much PNR. With him and Duncan on the floor at the same time, I see this being an issue. I just don't think the Baynes kid can be as effective as Splitter was. Parker is a little rickety at the point, but who knows? I'll never underestimate Pop.

As for the Thunder, they better be able to keep the ball in front of them. None of the guys they've picked up play above-par defense, especially Kanter.

I still like a healthy Golden State, but hoping that OKC finds their mojo with Donavan.

[cj]

West has several teams that could be champion caliber if they happen to fire on all cylinders. (no real surprise there)


Clips look amazing when they are on a role, but there are a ton of questions regarding their 'substance'.

Perhaps parting with Jordan will see them finally embracing 'small ball' full time? Could have interesting implications. Still an outsider.

Small ball is good, but you still need some interior defense.

[cj]

I agree, especially concerning the Spurs. Aldridge is a great pickup, but he mostly a pick-n-pop guy...not so much PNR. With him and Duncan on the floor at the same time, I see this being an issue. I just don't think the Baynes kid can be as effective as Splitter was. Parker is a little rickety at the point, but who knows? I'll never underestimate Pop.

As for the Thunder, they better be able to keep the ball in front of them. None of the guys they've picked up play above-par defense, especially Kanter.

I still like a healthy Golden State, but hoping that OKC finds their mojo with Donavan.

Thunder defense is pretty good when it needs to be. Kanter is the exception. Westbrook, Roberson, Adams, Ibaka and Durant are all solid on D. When healthy and playing together, they have always rated highly on defensive efficiency. No doubt about Kanter though, he needs to get to at least mediocre. He is awful right now on that end.

One thing he can do though is prevent other teams from going small because he has that rare commodity of being able to score in the post and on the boards. Most teams can't do that when the other goes small because they don't have skilled big men on offense.

[Robert Fischer]

IIRC I may have had some reservations about Aldridge.

He's a great player in terms of skill and level of difficulty, but he takes an awful lot of "long twos".

Yes, I know that isn't exactly the popular way to view a player, but that can at times work against the efficiency of a team's offense.

[cj]

Clippers are courting Javale McGee. Wow.

[Tee]

I'm all for more Shaqtin' A Fool material. :)

Clippers are courting Javale McGee. Wow.

[cj]

I'm all for more Shaqtin' A Fool material. :)

He is the King.

[Robert Fischer]

He is the King.

wow

Forget small-ball, the Clippers may feature a lineup that includes Javale McGee, Lance Stephenson, and the coach's son Austin Rivers.

[cj]

The Lakers are trading for Roy Hibbert? Is all of Los Angeles basketball falling into the San Andreas fault?

[Robert Fischer]

NBA has a hot stove, the Lakers and Knicks have a George Foreman grill

[Stillriledup]

The Lakers are trading for Roy Hibbert? Is all of Los Angeles basketball falling into the San Andreas fault?

No doubt, it's awful, the Clippers are clowning it up, getting rid of a first round pick to get Doc so he could sigh Big Baby and the truth, and the lakers wow, as long as they have clowns running the team nobody will respect them.

[Robert Goren]

The coming season is a lost season. Next year, there will be a massive infusion of money for salaries. Teams and player agents have planning for next summer's free agency for several years now.

[lansdale]

Greg Monroe just signed a 3 year, $50 Million max-contract w/ the Bucks.

These are the type of signings that seem to make zero sense.

Here's a guy who is a Big Man in a league dominated by guards and scoring forwards.
He averaged 16pts 10rebounds on a Detroit team that went 32-50 in the east.



How in the world is this guy a "max" contract guy?

He's a fringe all-star at best.

it's nice that he's a solid Big Man, but a solid Big Man is supposed to be your 4th or 5th best player on a championship contender.
How in the world can you give a solid Big Man a "max" contract and hope to build any kind of team?

RF,

I've seen you describe players like this - better than average NBA players as 'solid' - but they're actually better than that. The average NBA players is a guy like Matt Barnes - guy of absolutely average skills who shows up and does the job. Monroe is a good player - he's 11th in the league in rebounding - top 2% and 40th in scoring - top 10%. In fact, by the measure of metastats, he's now the best player Detroit has. The assumption that any team can aspire to a championship without HOF caliber players, of whom there may be about 15 in the league, is crazy. The most that the majority of teams can hope for, and Detriot surely falls in this group, is to put a watchable enough product on the floor that fans are willing to pay the cable bill. In this context, the deal makes perfect sense.

[lansdale]

I agree, especially concerning the Spurs. Aldridge is a great pickup, but he mostly a pick-n-pop guy...not so much PNR. With him and Duncan on the floor at the same time, I see this being an issue. I just don't think the Baynes kid can be as effective as Splitter was. Parker is a little rickety at the point, but who knows? I'll never underestimate Pop.

As for the Thunder, they better be able to keep the ball in front of them. None of the guys they've picked up play above-par defense, especially Kanter.

I still like a healthy Golden State, but hoping that OKC finds their mojo with Donavan.

Agree that Clips are now out of it after departure of DJ, and it comes down to GSW, Spurs, OKC, with GSW well in the lead. Take your point re Aldridge, but think Pop will try to work him into the system if it's at all possible. Parker can only play 20 minutes at this point - they need to fill out the rest, and especially another guard beside Green who can defend.

Re OKC, I don't think they're either better or worse since the trades - their defense will be worse, but they'll score more, so will be a wash. As I've said, I think Donovan will be the stumbling block. The team will win ca. 60 games but go out in the second or third round when BD loses the X&O battle with an opposing coach with more NBA experience.

[Robert Fischer]

RF,

I've seen you describe players like this - better than average NBA players as 'solid' - but they're actually better than that. The average NBA players is a guy like Matt Barnes - guy of absolutely average skills who shows up and does the job. Monroe is a good player - he's 11th in the league in rebounding - top 2% and 40th in scoring - top 10%. In fact, by the measure of metastats, he's now the best player Detroit has. The assumption that any team can aspire to a championship without HOF caliber players, of whom there may be about 15 in the league, is crazy. The most that the majority of teams can hope for, and Detriot surely falls in this group, is to put a watchable enough product on the floor that fans are willing to pay the cable bill. In this context, the deal makes perfect sense.

He's a skilled post player.

But 16pts on that Pistons team doesn't make him a great scorer.

I feel you have to save the "max" contracts for guys that can change game outcomes.
In today's NBA that means very few big men should be "max" players.

Regardless of the upcoming changes, they signed the guy to what is currently referred to as a max contract.

I don't agree with Monroe being in that category.

I think he's their franchise's top paid player now.

Monroe would be a nice 4th best player on a top team, or debatably a 3rd best starter on a deep outsider.

Maybe the Bucks signed him because they have a theory that is different, maybe they signed him because they felt pressure to bring in someone, anyone with all-star like numbers to try to sell a few season tickets packages.

[cj]

Re OKC, I don't think they're either better or worse since the trades - their defense will be worse, but they'll score more, so will be a wash. As I've said, I think Donovan will be the stumbling block. The team will win ca. 60 games but go out in the second or third round when BD loses the X&O battle with an opposing coach with more NBA experience.

I think you are dead wrong on Donovan, but we'll see. Presti didn't hire another Brooks. He was the worst X and Os guy in the NBA, or in the bottom three at best. Donovan might have some learning to do, but he also has a very good staff around him now.

[lansdale]

He's a skilled post player.

But 16pts on that Pistons team doesn't make him a great scorer.

I feel you have to save the "max" contracts for guys that can change game outcomes.
In today's NBA that means very few big men should be "max" players.

Regardless of the upcoming changes, they signed the guy to what is currently referred to as a max contract.

I don't agree with Monroe being in that category.

I think he's their franchise's top paid player now.

Monroe would be a nice 4th best player on a top team, or debatably a 3rd best starter on a deep outsider.

Maybe the Bucks signed him because they have a theory that is different, maybe they signed him because they felt pressure to bring in someone, anyone with all-star like numbers to try to sell a few season tickets packages.

Okay, I understand you object to the relative salary squeezing of the absolute top players and those in the next tier, but this is what (of course) the players voted for and got in negotiations. The max formula is complex but 'years in' or seniority is obviously a key factor. Like most 'real' unions actually.

The stuff about 'building a winner' is for the fantasy GMs of talk radio - I can't believe you buy this stuff. That was what my previous post about the huge variance of the draft was about. You can only win with a handful of players in the NBA. Most teams will not get them. Luck is a huge factor. It's not just the luck of the draft and literally getting in the lottery. If McHale doesn't decide to cut his friend Ainge a break and send K. Garnett to Boston, no title for Paul Pierce and Garnett. If Kerr doesn't take the GSW job, maybe no title for Steph Curry and Andre Iguodala.

All most teams do is try to grab the best players available and try to make the playoffs. So to say Monroe should get less so the Bucks (not Pistons, sorry) can save something for some fantasy 'game-changer' doesn't work. *The game-changers are already taken* and nobody's giving them up.

I've linked an interesting piece by Nate Silver which speaks to your issue though - that these second tier players are either borderline or unprofitable in terms of their yield to ownership. If this is your point, I don't understand why you take their side. I'm with the players. If you were negotiating as a player, would you vote more money for the owners?

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/when-to-sign-an-nba-player-to-the-max/

[lansdale]

I think you are dead wrong on Donovan, but we'll see. Presti didn't hire another Brooks. He was the worst X and Os guy in the NBA, or in the bottom three at best. Donovan might have some learning to do, but he also has a very good staff around him now.

I hope Donovan is much better than I think, but there is no precedent for a coach moving from college to the NBA and winning it. As I've said here a few time, the OKC Big Three should be in the mix for the title every year - and win a few. If they don't win at least one, the front office is responsible for the greatest mismanagement of talent (due to cheapness in the opinion of many) in the history of the NBA. I have to say that if any if the Big Three were my clients, I'd get them out of there.

[Robert Fischer]

Okay, I understand you object to the relative salary squeezing of the absolute top players and those in the next tier, but this is what (of course) the players voted for and got in negotiations. The max formula is complex but 'years in' or seniority is obviously a key factor. Like most 'real' unions actually.

The stuff about 'building a winner' is for the fantasy GMs of talk radio - I can't believe you buy this stuff. That was what my previous post about the huge variance of the draft was about. You can only win with a handful of players in the NBA. Most teams will not get them. Luck is a huge factor. It's not just the luck of the draft and literally getting in the lottery. If McHale doesn't decide to cut his friend Ainge a break and send K. Garnett to Boston, no title for Paul Pierce and Garnett. If Kerr doesn't take the GSW job, maybe no title for Steph Curry and Andre Iguodala.

All most teams do is try to grab the best players available and try to make the playoffs. So to say Monroe should get less so the Bucks (not Pistons, sorry) can save something for some fantasy 'game-changer' doesn't work. *The game-changers are already taken* and nobody's giving them up.

I've linked an interesting piece by Nate Silver which speaks to your issue though - that these second tier players are either borderline or unprofitable in terms of their yield to ownership. If this is your point, I don't understand why you take their side. I'm with the players. If you were negotiating as a player, would you vote more money for the owners?

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/when-to-sign-an-nba-player-to-the-max/

Good points.

There's a lot of truth to your stance here. More so than mine. :ThmbUp:

[lansdale]

Even with the year West had, this still seems like a pretty big deal. Left 12 million on the table to sign for $1 million vet min. in SA - he wants a ring. How would you like to take the ball to cup vs. a front line of Kawhi, West, and Duncan?

[cj]

I have to say that if any if the Big Three were my clients, I'd get them out of there.

Why? The Thunder are paying, well into luxury tax, and being in OKC certainly hasn't inhibited Durant or Westbrook from getting major endorsement deals. The days of needing to be in a big market are long gone. Look at the free agent signings this year. Guys want to win, not be in LA or NY or Miami.

[cj]

Even with the year West had, this still seems like a pretty big deal. Left 12 million on the table to sign for $1 million vet min. in SA - he wants a ring. How would you like to take the ball to cup vs. a front line of Kawhi, West, and Duncan?

This was a steal, certainly helps their depth. The backcourt will make or break the Spurs this year, the rest is stacked.

[Valuist]

I'm curious to see how much Duncan, Parker & Ginobli have left in the tank. No question Aldredge is a big time signing. I see the Spurs and Warriors as heavy chalk for the West. Maybe both 9-5 with OKC at around 5-1, the Clippers 15-1 and everyone else 20-1.

[Canarsie]

Why? The Thunder are paying, well into luxury tax, and being in OKC certainly hasn't inhibited Durant or Westbrook from getting major endorsement deals. The days of needing to be in a big market are long gone. Look at the free agent signings this year. Guys want to win, not be in LA or NY or Miami.

They were drafted and became stars. Both have been brilliant at marketing themselves they should write a book together. But name one stud that OKC has signed as a free agent. While they are a well run team people aren't lining up to sign and play for them at a discount or level salary.

[cj]

They were drafted and became stars. Both have been brilliant at marketing themselves they should write a book together. But name one stud that OKC has signed as a free agent. While they are a well run team people aren't lining up to sign and play for them at a discount or level salary.

OKC hasn't really been in position to need to sign any big name guys. About the biggest guy they "missed" on was Mike Miller. They wound up with Anthony Morrow instead and he was much better. Oh yeah, and Pau Gasol. But the Thunder couldn't match the offer the Bulls gave, they weren't allowed. He went with the money.

For the record, how many guys are really signing at a discount other than David West? I'm not really seeing that outside of guys signing to stay with their own team like Duncan.

[Robert Goren]

for OKC same song umpth teen verse. If their stars are healthy at playoff time, then they are the favorites. GS is worth watching if for no other reason to see if this "Sports Science" approach to injury prevention works. The Eagles are using the same approach in the NFL. Both teams have tried really hard to get players who buy into it. I have my doubts about it, but we shall see. In the NBA, if a star or even a very good role player goes down, you are toast in the playoffs.
Last for the first time, trades made after the season started mattered. This could be the start of a trend.

[cj]

Clips trying to persuade Jordan to change his mind and stay instead of going to Dallas.

[Robert Fischer]

West gets paid off-the-books, and now LAC tampers with Jordan...

NBA stove is heating up!

[cj]

West gets paid off-the-books, and now LAC tampers with Jordan...

NBA stove is heating up!

I seriously doubt West is getting paid off the books.

[Robert Fischer]

I seriously doubt West is getting paid off the books.

Love of the game? Wants a ring? Loyalty and honor?

[cj]

Love of the game? Wants a ring? Loyalty and honor?


Wants a ring obviously. You can only spend so much money. If he has been good with his he doesn't need it.

[lansdale]

Clips trying to persuade Jordan to change his mind and stay instead of going to Dallas.

I don't remember anything like this ever happening in the NBA. Paul and Griffin are flying to DJ's place in Houston to try to persuade him to return. Both must realize their shot at a title vanishes without him. OTOH Cuban is flying from Dallas to try to guarantee he's really signing with Mavs. Wouldn't be surprised if everybody showed up on Oprah with her demanding they hug it out.

[Robert Fischer]

Wants a ring obviously. You can only spend so much money. If he has been good with his he doesn't need it.

I bet the Spurs wish they knew that before they paid him off! :lol:

I'm just giving you some shit, CJ. Maybe you are right.

[cj]

I don't remember anything like this ever happening in the NBA. Paul and Griffin are flying to DJ's place in Houston to try to persuade him to return. Both must realize their shot at a title vanishes without him. OTOH Cuban is flying from Dallas to try to guarantee he's really signing with Mavs. Wouldn't be surprised if everybody showed up on Oprah with her demanding they hug it out.

This is considered a pretty big no no in the NBA, to tamper after a deal has been reached but before the signing. I'm not surprised though, the Clippers owner is new. He probably doesn't care about unwritten rules.

[Robert Fischer]

For some reason, if Jordan reneges here, it will be very easy to root against him and LAC...

[lansdale]

This is considered a pretty big no no in the NBA, to tamper after a deal has been reached but before the signing. I'm not surprised though, the Clippers owner is new. He probably doesn't care about unwritten rules.

No doubt it's bad form and will cause DJ problems going forward no matter what he does - but why have a moratorium at all if it's impossible ever to use it? He still has to Thursday to rescind. Most contracts have similar clauses.

Re the owner, like Hollywood stars, these guys live in a hothouse world where their immense egos can roam free - they rarely hear the word 'no'. This time, one will have to swallow it. But who?

Ballmer: $24 billion.
Cuban: $5.7 billion

My guess - Ballmer makes DJ an offer he can't refuse and he goes back - the rest of the league refuses to deal with Ballmer again.

[Robert Goren]

DeAndre Jordon has future in politics.

[Canarsie]

OKC hasn't really been in position to need to sign any big name guys. About the biggest guy they "missed" on was Mike Miller. They wound up with Anthony Morrow instead and he was much better. Oh yeah, and Pau Gasol. But the Thunder couldn't match the offer the Bulls gave, they weren't allowed. He went with the money.

For the record, how many guys are really signing at a discount other than David West? I'm not really seeing that outside of guys signing to stay with their own team like Duncan.

Not many at all. But even if there was cap space available there wouldn't be a long line at all with a rookie coach and the two star players who might be leaving. The gm keeps on trading for exemptions (a good move) knowing that's the best he can do.


Your not serious about Mike Miller? At best he's a piece or a cheerleader on the Cavaliers. He was sensational for Miami ( I loved watching him play) but those days are long gone.

So if Kanter gets a near max deal what does Ibacka get? Nobody has played harder for OKC he even went on the court with an injury that could have become severe in order to help his team. Surely his salary should start at 20 mil. Then you have Adams who should command ten mil bare minimum when his contract expires.

I'm interested in seeing if OKC stays in the luxury tax long enough to be a repeater with severe financial repercussions. With the money he is spending now if he kept Harden it would have been cheaper in the long run and a title or two could have been a possibility.

[cj]

Not many at all. But even if there was cap space available there wouldn't be a long line at all with a rookie coach and the two star players who might be leaving. The gm keeps on trading for exemptions (a good move) knowing that's the best he can do.


Your not serious about Mike Miller? At best he's a piece or a cheerleader on the Cavaliers. He was sensational for Miami ( I loved watching him play) but those days are long gone.

So if Kanter gets a near max deal what does Ibacka get? Nobody has played harder for OKC he even went on the court with an injury that could have become severe in order to help his team. Surely his salary should start at 20 mil. Then you have Adams who should command ten mil bare minimum when his contract expires.

I'm interested in seeing if OKC stays in the luxury tax long enough to be a repeater with severe financial repercussions. With the money he is spending now if he kept Harden it would have been cheaper in the long run and a title or two could have been a possibility.

Ibaka will get paid. The cap is going way up so the penalties won't be as bad as they seem now. Of course it will all hinge on KD staying and being healthy. I think he'll stay, but anything is possible.

I personally don't think they would have won a title with Harden yet. There is only one ball and both he and Westbrook have to dominate the ball.

[cj]

No doubt it's bad form and will cause DJ problems going forward no matter what he does - but why have a moratorium at all if it's impossible ever to use it? He still has to Thursday to rescind. Most contracts have similar clauses.

Re the owner, like Hollywood stars, these guys live in a hothouse world where their immense egos can roam free - they rarely hear the word 'no'. This time, one will have to swallow it. But who?

Ballmer: $24 billion.
Cuban: $5.7 billion

My guess - Ballmer makes DJ an offer he can't refuse and he goes back - the rest of the league refuses to deal with Ballmer again.

Sounds like he went back, so the Clips are going to be a 4/5 seed again and get bounced by the second round. I think this will be a big negative going forward for the Clippers, but it will help this season.

[Robert Fischer]

jordan reneged

[lansdale]

Why? The Thunder are paying, well into luxury tax, and being in OKC certainly hasn't inhibited Durant or Westbrook from getting major endorsement deals. The days of needing to be in a big market are long gone. Look at the free agent signings this year. Guys want to win, not be in LA or NY or Miami.

I did mention money, but only 'in the opionion of many' - I think it's only a minor issue. I agree with you that the money thing re Harden is irrelevant - he and WB are too similar to co-exist and be optimally effective. Agree also that market-size now irrelevant. As I've said, I think that the main stumbling block for OKC has been Brooks, and I don't believe Donovan is much of an improvement (even with Mo Cheeks, one of my favorite players, on staff). I think, overall the OKC management knows how to identify and acquire talent, but doesn't understand, in the way the best organizations do, how to develop talent and integrate it into a cohesive unit. I think this is possibly why they've cycled so many players through the roster in the past few years without notable improvement. I, at the least, question how much the injuries of the Big Three are related to the combination of intensity and minutes they're required to play to keep the team competitive. Regardless, I could really be wrong about BD, so I'll suspend judgement on all this until the end of next season.

[lansdale]

Sounds like he went back, so the Clips are going to be a 4/5 seed again and get bounced by the second round. I think this will be a big negative going forward for the Clippers, but it will help this season.

Ugly how this whole thing went down, but may set up an Us vs. Them dynamic which will make the Clips tougher and more unified. Without question, a better move for DJ. Makes playoffs more interesting.

Talk that Fegan should be 86ed from league- apparently he's got a record of stuff like this. Not to let DJ off the hook altogether, but wonder how much he was simply following Fegan's lead.

[cj]

Ugly how this whole thing went down, but may set up an Us vs. Them dynamic which will make the Clips tougher and more unified. Without question, a better move for DJ. Makes playoffs more interesting.

Talk that Fegan should be 86ed from league- apparently he's got a record of stuff like this. Not to let DJ off the hook altogether, but wonder how much he was simply following Fegan's lead.


Rumor is his agent was against this. I think it shows a lot about Jordan's character that he hasn't even had the nerve to call the Mavs yet.

[cj]

I did mention money, but only 'in the opionion of many' - I think it's only a minor issue. I agree with you that the money thing re Harden is irrelevant - he and WB are too similar to co-exist and be optimally effective. Agree also that market-size now irrelevant. As I've said, I think that the main stumbling block for OKC has been Brooks, and I don't believe Donovan is much of an improvement (even with Mo Cheeks, one of my favorite players, on staff). I think, overall the OKC management knows how to identify and acquire talent, but doesn't understand, in the way the best organizations do, how to develop talent and integrate it into a cohesive unit. I think this is possibly why they've cycled so many players through the roster in the past few years without notable improvement. I, at the least, question how much the injuries of the Big Three are related to the combination of intensity and minutes they're required to play to keep the team competitive. Regardless, I could really be wrong about BD, so I'll suspend judgement on all this until the end of next season.

I'm willing to give Donovan a chance. I'd rather him than one of the coaching retreads that were available.

The main reason the Thunder haven't improved is pretty simple...it is injuries. The Thunder have developed players just fine. Westbrook, Durant, Ibaka, Harden, Adams, Reggie, etc. all improved a bunch in a short time. The minutes may have been an issue for Durant. We'll never know. I don't buy that for Westbrook or Ibaka. Westbrook was a fluke thing on a stupid play by a nobody, and Ibaka has never been a big minute guy.

[Stillriledup]

Rumor is his agent was against this. I think it shows a lot about Jordan's character that he hasn't even had the nerve to call the Mavs yet.

He's a high character guy, not sure about his agent though.

[cj]

He's a high character guy, not sure about his agent though.

The reports going around now are the opposite. We'll see. He hasn't called the Mavs. That has nothing to do with his agent.

[cj]

Kanter offered max by Portland, up to OKC to match now.

[Robert Fischer]

Kanter offered max by Portland, up to OKC to match now.

If I skimmed the article correctly, OKC can sign Kanter, but they will have to pay a tax.

[Stillriledup]

Kanter offered max by Portland, up to OKC to match now.
Max contract for who?

[Canarsie]

Ibaka will get paid. The cap is going way up so the penalties won't be as bad as they seem now. Of course it will all hinge on KD staying and being healthy. I think he'll stay, but anything is possible.

I personally don't think they would have won a title with Harden yet. There is only one ball and both he and Westbrook have to dominate the ball.

Even with one ball they let Harden go for peanuts because the owner is a cheapskate. He's getting killed on twitter for not keeping Harden who he didn't even have to trade at that point in time. They probably would have gotten two high number ones for him bare minimum probably more. How many finals have they reached without him? You can't use injury because then it would be one ball with Harden.

If Kanter stays in OKC I'll up my starting salary prediction for Adams at 12 mil bare minimum. The starting five as of now will earn 100 million combined no matter where they play.

I haven't read one thing about Durant positive or negative. To me this isn't a good sign but since I hate seeing any player injured I hope my analysis is 100% wrong.

[Stillriledup]

Even with one ball they let Harden go for peanuts because the owner is a cheapskate. He's getting killed on twitter for not keeping Harden who he didn't even have to trade at that point in time. They probably would have gotten two high number ones for him bare minimum probably more. How many finals have they reached without him? You can't use injury because then it would be one ball with Harden.

If Kanter stays in OKC I'll up my starting salary prediction for Adams at 12 mil bare minimum. The starting five as of now will earn 100 million combined no matter where they play.

I haven't read one thing about Durant positive or negative. To me this isn't a good sign but since I hate seeing any player injured I hope my analysis is 100% wrong.

I saw KD dunk on a commercial recently advertising 'fizzy lifting drinks' so all seems well.

[lansdale]

Even with one ball they let Harden go for peanuts because the owner is a cheapskate. He's getting killed on twitter for not keeping Harden who he didn't even have to trade at that point in time. They probably would have gotten two high number ones for him bare minimum probably more. How many finals have they reached without him? You can't use injury because then it would be one ball with Harden.

If Kanter stays in OKC I'll up my starting salary prediction for Adams at 12 mil bare minimum. The starting five as of now will earn 100 million combined no matter where they play.

I haven't read one thing about Durant positive or negative. To me this isn't a good sign but since I hate seeing any player injured I hope my analysis is 100% wrong.

The current NBA championship future odds list OKC at 7-1, behind only GSW and Cavs - this tells me somebody knows that Durant is OK.

[Robert Fischer]

Mavs signed Deron Williams to a 2 year deal.

This guy used to be an all-star and used to deserve a cool nickname ("D-Will").

Deron Williams has declined to a guy who shot 39% from the field last year. He still is automatic from the foul line, and he is a very solid 3pt shooter and assist man. Some chance his stock could bounce back a little this year.

[PressThePace]

Mavs signed Deron Williams to a 2 year deal.

This guy used to be an all-star and used to deserve a cool nickname ("D-Will").

Deron Williams has declined to a guy who shot 39% from the field last year. He still is automatic from the foul line, and he is a very solid 3pt shooter and assist man. Some chance his stock could bounce back a little this year.

He also had to be physically restrained from going after his coach this past year, not to mention KG stating that Williams was lazy and didn't want to prepare. Carlisle should have fun with him. I used to think Williams was a top tier guard, but his decline has been drastic.

[Robert Fischer]

He also had to be physically restrained from going after his coach this past year, not to mention KG stating that Williams was lazy and didn't want to prepare. Carlisle should have fun with him. I used to think Williams was a top tier guard, but his decline has been drastic.

I don't know the guy, but the book on him says he has a delicate ego, and he's satisfied with mediocre results.

New environment could go good or bad for him.

[Canarsie]

The current NBA championship future odds list OKC at 7-1, behind only GSW and Cavs - this tells me somebody knows that Durant is OK.

The Thunder are lower odds than San Antonio? I find that hard to believe unless someone made a humongous wager on OKC.

[cj]

Even with one ball they let Harden go for peanuts because the owner is a cheapskate. He's getting killed on twitter for not keeping Harden who he didn't even have to trade at that point in time. They probably would have gotten two high number ones for him bare minimum probably more. How many finals have they reached without him? You can't use injury because then it would be one ball with Harden.

If Kanter stays in OKC I'll up my starting salary prediction for Adams at 12 mil bare minimum. The starting five as of now will earn 100 million combined no matter where they play.

I haven't read one thing about Durant positive or negative. To me this isn't a good sign but since I hate seeing any player injured I hope my analysis is 100% wrong.

People killing the owner about Harden really don't know what they are talking about. The Thunder were a better team the next year without him. The Westbrook injury is what hurt them, not trading Harden. If you are running a fantasy team, keeping Harden was a must. But on the court it is a team game.

[cj]

http://espn.go.com/blog/okc-thunder/post/_/id/606/is-enes-kanter-really-worth-70-million

[Canarsie]

People killing the owner about Harden really don't know what they are talking about. The Thunder were a better team the next year without him. The Westbrook injury is what hurt them, not trading Harden. If you are running a fantasy team, keeping Harden was a must. But on the court it is a team game.

They're OKC fans on twitter ( search engines think I'm one) and as a group they are ostracizing the owner. Maybe since the OKC taxpayers are footing the bill for the teams practice facility.

Ever since Harden was traded Presti still looks like a smart guy but not brilliant. They really got nothing for him and he stayed in the same conference. If the owner isn't handcuffing him they should have at least one title opportunity during the next three years. It's right NOW go time for OKC lets see if all the "haters" give LJ title to Westbrook or Durant. On paper their starting five is pretty damn good imo. In fact really, really, DAMN, good.

They were a better team on paper than the Rockets this year that didn't get them very far. They were also a 1/2 or a game ahead of the Pelicans late in the season and choked it up. I was also shocked to hear somewhere in the media that the Thunder was ranked as the worst defensive team in the conference.

The other thing I was reading (doesn't mean its true) is that they might start shredding some of the lower cost contracts to save some cash with the repeater tax looming. Since he probably (not definitely) spends $1 for arena naming rights he can reduce it significantly by putting it on the open market.

Basketball is definitely a team game yet there was almost no chatter about Jackson's hogging the ball until he got froze out and eventually was traded. To me when your best players don't speak up before an event happens the locker room is lost. Somebody has to get a grip on things for the final hurdle to be overcome.

[cj]

They're OKC fans on twitter ( search engines think I'm one) and as a group they are ostracizing the owner. Maybe since the OKC taxpayers are footing the bill for the teams practice facility.

Ever since Harden was traded Presti still looks like a smart guy but not brilliant. They really got nothing for him and he stayed in the same conference. If the owner isn't handcuffing him they should have at least one title opportunity during the next three years. It's right NOW go time for OKC lets see if all the "haters" give LJ title to Westbrook or Durant. On paper their starting five is pretty damn good imo. In fact really, really, DAMN, good.

They were a better team on paper than the Rockets this year that didn't get them very far. They were also a 1/2 or a game ahead of the Pelicans late in the season and choked it up. I was also shocked to hear somewhere in the media that the Thunder was ranked as the worst defensive team in the conference.

The other thing I was reading (doesn't mean its true) is that they might start shredding some of the lower cost contracts to save some cash with the repeater tax looming. Since he probably (not definitely) spends $1 for arena naming rights he can reduce it significantly by putting it on the open market.

Basketball is definitely a team game yet there was almost no chatter about Jackson's hogging the ball until he got froze out and eventually was traded. To me when your best players don't speak up before an event happens the locker room is lost. Somebody has to get a grip on things for the final hurdle to be overcome.

Twitter fans? Um, ok.

The Thunder did not get nothing. They got Steven Adams, a guy teams will be lining up to pay in two years. You can bank on that. It can be argued he has been the best player from that draft. He isn't James Harden, but he filled a need and is a lot cheaper. They also have a very promising Euro-stash (Abrines) that is playing in Spain.

How can you say "if the owner isn't handcuffing" him? The team is WAY in the luxury tax. I believe currently they are 4th in overall salary and in the smallest market in the NBA.

What does last year have to do with anything? They were without two of their best three players most of the year. Durant missed all of it, and Westbrook and Ibaka missed big stretches at times. They were far from the only guys hurt as well. They had to scrape and added Waiters and Kanter mid season. I'm not sure what you would expect from a team with that many injuries in the West. It is a miracle they came close to making the playoffs. I don't know if they were worst statistically, but when you have a patchwork team that keeps changing, I wouldn't be surprised.

As far as the repeater tax, all the teams want to avoid it when possible. I have no problem getting rid of guys like Steve Novak and Perry Jones if that will help. If you wind up needing your 11-12-13-14-15 guys in the NBA you aren't going anywhere. May as well fill those spots with cheap guys.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Jackson. Everyone knew what was going on with Jackson and Durant and Westbrook made it known. There isn't a lot you can do when you aren't playing, but they certainly weren't quiet about it. There is plenty to that story that you will never read in the national media. They dealt with him and got Kanter and Singler...I'm fine with that. I also am pretty sure that has a lot to do with Brooks being gone. He is the guy that didn't deal with it well, not the players.

[Canarsie]

Twitter fans? Um, ok.

The Thunder did not get nothing. They got Steven Adams, a guy teams will be lining up to pay in two years. You can bank on that. It can be argued he has been the best player from that draft. He isn't James Harden, but he filled a need and is a lot cheaper. They also have a very promising Euro-stash (Abrines) that is playing in Spain.

How can you say "if the owner isn't handcuffing" him? The team is WAY in the luxury tax. I believe currently they are 4th in overall salary and in the smallest market in the NBA.

What does last year have to do with anything? They were without two of their best three players most of the year. Durant missed all of it, and Westbrook and Ibaka missed big stretches at times. They were far from the only guys hurt as well. They had to scrape and added Waiters and Kanter mid season. I'm not sure what you would expect from a team with that many injuries in the West. It is a miracle they came close to making the playoffs. I don't know if they were worst statistically, but when you have a patchwork team that keeps changing, I wouldn't be surprised.

As far as the repeater tax, all the teams want to avoid it when possible. I have no problem getting rid of guys like Steve Novak and Perry Jones if that will help. If you wind up needing your 11-12-13-14-15 guys in the NBA you aren't going anywhere. May as well fill those spots with cheap guys.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Jackson. Everyone knew what was going on with Jackson and Durant and Westbrook made it known. There isn't a lot you can do when you aren't playing, but they certainly weren't quiet about it. There is plenty to that story that you will never read in the national media. They dealt with him and got Kanter and Singler...I'm fine with that. I also am pretty sure that has a lot to do with Brooks being gone. He is the guy that didn't deal with it well, not the players.

Twitter, basketball boards related to OKC, I even got to see the Moore basketball courts on periscope. :eek: It was a small sample but those guys were awful and need a serious coach. Just busting your chops on that one but I really did see the courts.

Both you and I both know the only reason he is going over the cap is the same reason that Cleveland is. They have star players who can just pick up and leave without compensation. Essentially both owners who scream about small market teams are being held hostage even though the CBA is seriously tilted to the owners. Both probably pay $1 in arena rights and could get a nice sum of money putting it up for bid. Instead they choose to screw the NBA players but the lady running the show now is no idiot. I can't wait for the books of six teams to be opened (they're not doing OKC) and get to see all the different ways the players get screwed.

I think he handcuffed the residents of OKC by making them pay for their practice arena. If they were even breaking even I wouldn't have an issue with it but the owner is reaping a nice chunk of money in yearly profit. He could have signed Harden and renamed the arena. You can say what you want being a fan but if you think Adams is going to put you over the top compared to Harden your the first person on my speed dial list for making trades.

You can argue about Adams being the best in the draft but not many people would be listening. Maybe Presti will say it so Adams agent could use it as ammunition.

Ask one gm today if they would trade Harden for Adams and a european no name. If he was just an average player why wouldn't he come over here and play with the big boys?

Every guy who OKC drafts or trade for usually gets very high praise for you.

Durant is better this year, numbers don't lie.

For some reason? You can't be this clueless, have to be trolling. They've actually been better without Harden, FYI, but I guess you advocate paying your 3rd best player max money so he can average 16 a game. They'd have no money to pay anyone else.

Thunder 9-2 against the Spurs, no way I give the Spurs even a slight edge. I'm actually not too worried about the Thunder, they are going through a tough time, which all teams do, but I also remember they went 8-8 to end the season before making the finals. They aren't a young team any more, they know when the games matter. I could be wrong of course, but I doubt it. ;)

Well we all know what happened with the underdog inferior Spurs playing against OKC. The Spurs shocked the world winning that series.


I think this year, Brooks will get better. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but he is going to be forced to play the younger guys. Perry Jones is a freak athlete that I think will break out this year, McGary looks great so far, and Lamb has already shown he can score in the league. There are no more Fisher and Butler old guy crutches. The Thunder are actually going to implement at least some semblance of an offensive structure as well. You could see some of that in the summer league.

I also think Perkins playing time is about over. Adams is better on both ends of the floor. Perkins is way too bad on offense to play with the second unit, I think Collison soaks up his minutes. People seem to have written him off, but he actually played very well until the end of the year when it is now obvious his knee was a problem. He had surgery right after the season and I think he'll be back to what he was.

This is the same Perry Jones that you were raving about being a future star and now say no biggie if they cut him? Same deal with McGary? Lamb was traded for Luke Ridnour a guy who has been cut or traded around five times in a month.

Even though we engage in debates I respect your basketball knowledge you just go way over the top for OKC. But when it pertains to the entire NBA about other players, management, rules, etc. you bring a lot to the table and enjoy reading your posts along with a bunch of others. You don't have to post on pure basketball sites to be knowledgeable about the game.

[cj]

Twitter, basketball boards related to OKC, I even got to see the Moore basketball courts on periscope. :eek: It was a small sample but those guys were awful and need a serious coach. Just busting your chops on that one but I really did see the courts.

Both you and I both know the only reason he is going over the cap is the same reason that Cleveland is. They have star players who can just pick up and leave without compensation. Essentially both owners who scream about small market teams are being held hostage even though the CBA is seriously tilted to the owners. Both probably pay $1 in arena rights and could get a nice sum of money putting it up for bid. Instead they choose to screw the NBA players but the lady running the show now is no idiot. I can't wait for the books of six teams to be opened (they're not doing OKC) and get to see all the different ways the players get screwed.

I think he handcuffed the residents of OKC by making them pay for their practice arena. If they were even breaking even I wouldn't have an issue with it but the owner is reaping a nice chunk of money in yearly profit. He could have signed Harden and renamed the arena. You can say what you want being a fan but if you think Adams is going to put you over the top compared to Harden your the first person on my speed dial list for making trades.

You can argue about Adams being the best in the draft but not many people would be listening. Maybe Presti will say it so Adams agent could use it as ammunition.

Ask one gm today if they would trade Harden for Adams and a european no name. If he was just an average player why wouldn't he come over here and play with the big boys?

Every guy who OKC drafts or trade for usually gets very high praise for you.





Well we all know what happened with the underdog inferior Spurs playing against OKC. The Spurs shocked the world winning that series.




This is the same Perry Jones that you were raving about being a future star and now say no biggie if they cut him? Same deal with McGary? Lamb was traded for Luke Ridnour a guy who has been cut or traded around five times in a month.

Even though we engage in debates I respect your basketball knowledge you just go way over the top for OKC. But when it pertains to the entire NBA about other players, management, rules, etc. you bring a lot to the table and enjoy reading your posts along with a bunch of others. You don't have to post on pure basketball sites to be knowledgeable about the game.

Of course I'm biased!

But still, that stuff above needs to be taken in context. Adams probably is the best player from that draft. It wasn't a very good draft though, obviously. The Euro guy is very young still. You never get fair value trading a superstar.

Things are a lot different with the CBA these days. I've said all along I wish the Thunder had kept Harden and traded him after the season if they didn't want to match, but they didn't. I think they could have gotten just as good a deal after. Westbrook probably doesn't get hurt either since Houston and Beverly never would have sniffed the playoffs, but no way anybody could predict that.

The Thunder were a better team the next year without Harden record wise and statistically on both ends of the floor. Yes, they lost to San Antonio when Ibaka played games 3-6 on one leg after missing the first two. Again, nobody can predict Chris Paul will make a dirty play (actually that probably could be predited) and injure him.

Perry Jones actually played three very good games before getting hurt. But really anything that happened last year means nothing. I was talking about the bench being better and not loaded with old guys. But what happened was most of those guys were thrust into roles as starters and/or got hurt themselves.

Any team can get derailed by injuries. The Thunder had about 10 teams worth of injuries last year. If that happens again, they won't be very good, just like every other team in the NBA. If they stay healthy, they'll contend for the title. What more can a fan ask?

[cj]

Just heard Josh Smith to the Clippers, that is even better than Javale McGee!

[Stillriledup]

Just heard Josh Smith to the Clippers, that is even better than Javale McGee!
YOU WORRIED??? :D

[Robert Fischer]

Just heard Josh Smith to the Clippers, that is even better than Javale McGee!


Could be value as a mentor to Lance Stephenson.

[cj]

YOU WORRIED??? :D

Clippers are certainly better with Jordan coming back. But worried about them winning anything, no.

[lansdale]

In the last couple of weeks, things seemed to have turned around dramatically for the Clips. DJ isn't leaving and they've added Stephenson, Pierce, and Josh Smith. Some are disparaging them already as an all-headcase team - maybe something there. But if they actually mesh, I think they have at least an outside shot at a trip to the finals.

If think there's general agreement that GSW still looks a cut above everybody else - I think the questions are about what appear to be the next three teams - Spurs, OKC, Clips - not necessarily in that order. Right now, I see the Spurs as second to Dubs, but I'm not sure about exactly where Clips and OKC should be - all have weaknesses.

Spurs have little backcourt D - four out of their five guards couldn't cover me - that's not good. Thompson and Curry would easily torch these guys right now - could the top heavy front line of the Spurs make up the difference? I don't think so. OKC has a strong group of starters, but I think that second unit is still weak - scoring yes, but not enough D, even assuming Adams is coming off the bench - I don't see these guys beating the Spurs, let alone Dubs. Clips are the real question mark. They could now be better than OKC and about on par with Spurs - or maybe better. If Stephenson demonstrates any interest in playing, the starters could average 95 ppg. and then they now have Pierce and JS coming off the bench. That's a strong group by any measure. All four teams could conceivably win 60 games. We'll see.

[cj]

In the last couple of weeks, things seemed to have turned around dramatically for the Clips. DJ isn't leaving and they've added Stephenson, Pierce, and Josh Smith. Some are disparaging them already as an all-headcase team - maybe something there. But if they actually mesh, I think they have at least an outside shot at a trip to the finals.

If think there's general agreement that GSW still looks a cut above everybody else - I think the questions are about what appear to be the next three teams - Spurs, OKC, Clips - not necessarily in that order. Right now, I see the Spurs as second to Dubs, but I'm not sure about exactly where Clips and OKC should be - all have weaknesses.

Spurs have little backcourt D - four out of their five guards couldn't cover me - that's not good. Thompson and Curry would easily torch these guys right now - could the top heavy front line of the Spurs make up the difference? I don't think so. OKC has a strong group of starters, but I think that second unit is still weak - scoring yes, but not enough D, even assuming Adams is coming off the bench - I don't see these guys beating the Spurs, let alone Dubs. Clips are the real question mark. They could now be better than OKC and about on par with Spurs - or maybe better. If Stephenson demonstrates any interest in playing, the starters could average 95 ppg. and then they now have Pierce and JS coming off the bench. That's a strong group by any measure. All four teams could conceivably win 60 games. We'll see.


OKC bench is weak? Really?

It is all going to come down to Durant being healthy for OKC in my opinion. If he is 100%, they'll be as good as anyone. If not, they'll be midpack. But this is by far the best bench they have ever had since I've been a fan.

I actually think Kanter will be 6th man. It will be him, Collison, Waiters, McGary, Singler, Augustin, Morrow, and Payne. That is as deep a bench as you will find in the NBA.

[lansdale]

OKC bench is weak? Really?

It is all going to come down to Durant being healthy for OKC in my opinion. If he is 100%, they'll be as good as anyone. If not, they'll be midpack. But this is by far the best bench they have ever had since I've been a fan.

I actually think Kanter will be 6th man. It will be him, Collison, Waiters, McGary, Singler, Augustin, Morrow, and Payne. That is as deep a bench as you will find in the NBA.

You did see that I said I thought this team will win 60 games - no question that they'll be among the best teams. And it does appear from the odds that KD will be back in his usual form. But you have to admit that except for McGary, this is a group of one-way players - good shooters, weak D. Collison was a solid player, but he's 35 and had a huge drop-off in his offensive numbers last year. As a rookie, Payne looks like a nice prospect, but I'll doubt we see much of him. I think GSW, Atlanta, the Spurs, and possibly even the Clips have a better bench.

But as I said in the previous post, all this is still tenative - speculation. All of the teams I was discussing (except Dubs) will be trying to absorb a lot of new players and we don't yet know what the chemistry will be like yet.

[cj]

You did see that I said I thought this team will win 60 games - no question that they'll be among the best teams. And it does appear from the odds that KD will be back in his usual form. But you have to admit that except for McGary, this is a group of one-way players - good shooters, weak D. Collison was a solid player, but he's 35 and had a huge drop-off in his offensive numbers last year. As a rookie, Payne looks like a nice prospect, but I'll doubt we see much of him. I think GSW, Atlanta, the Spurs, and possibly even the Clips have a better bench.

But as I said in the previous post, all this is still tenative - speculation. All of the teams I was discussing (except Dubs) will be trying to absorb a lot of new players and we don't yet know what the chemistry will be like yet.

McGary actually isn't very good on defense either! :) The thing with bench players though is that they usually are specialist or one way guys. If they weren't, they'd be starters. Most teams play 9 guys. The Thunder have 13 to pick from that are proven NBA players or have shown a lot of potential. There aren't many teams that can say that.

In any case, it is going to be a great season. Win, lose or draw I'll get my money's worth going to Thunder games I'm sure. That is good enough for me.

[lansdale]

McGary actually isn't very good on defense either! :) The thing with bench players though is that they usually are specialist or one way guys. If they weren't, they'd be starters. Most teams play 9 guys. The Thunder have 13 to pick from that are proven NBA players or have shown a lot of potential. There aren't many teams that can say that.

In any case, it is going to be a great season. Win, lose or draw I'll get my money's worth going to Thunder games I'm sure. That is good enough for me.

We can have a better debate about this subject after a couple of months of the coming season. As you say, the games between these teams should be spectacular, and you're very lucky to be able to be watching KD and WB live during the prime of their careers.

[Robert Fischer]

Kristaps Porzingis could actually turn out to be a 2nd or 3rd option type of team contributor. In 2-3 years he could be scoring between 15-20 and making a real impact overall.
The key appears to be The Knicks and leaders like Carmelo, Jackson embracing him and building his confidence.

He's a legit 7feet tall (may be 7'1 or so). He moves and has stamina like an NBA stretch-4. Yea, he'll be playing stretch-4, but the legs and motor aren't always part of that physical package.
He's got a jumper and he's got a quick release. He makes his own space for the jumper and gets it off quick.
He can't post up starters. He's foul prone. He's probably injury prone. The Knicks strength coach has to be thinking of a way to pack 20lbs of muscle on his frame. He can hit the 3pt shot, but he'll have to have confidence and the blessing of Melo and co.
He's a surprisingly good post defender (they played Okafor and Philly, and Okafor used his elite post moves to cut through the backup like a hot knife through butter, while Okafor struggled vs. Porzingis. Lots of length and quickness and instincts.

The vegas summer league is a joke, and any decent ballplayer could put up numbers, but he showed me enough that I was surprised by some of his abilities and skills. He's not a stiff. He'll need acceptance, confidence building and perhaps some bodybuilding.

check some of the tape:

1DgUPE58YPY

[Stillriledup]

Clippers are certainly better with Jordan coming back. But worried about them winning anything, no.

They made the playoffs last year though, that's gotta count for something?

[Canarsie]

Of course I'm biased!

But still, that stuff above needs to be taken in context. Adams probably is the best player from that draft. It wasn't a very good draft though, obviously. The Euro guy is very young still. You never get fair value trading a superstar.

Things are a lot different with the CBA these days. I've said all along I wish the Thunder had kept Harden and traded him after the season if they didn't want to match, but they didn't. I think they could have gotten just as good a deal after. Westbrook probably doesn't get hurt either since Houston and Beverly never would have sniffed the playoffs, but no way anybody could predict that.

The Thunder were a better team the next year without Harden record wise and statistically on both ends of the floor. Yes, they lost to San Antonio when Ibaka played games 3-6 on one leg after missing the first two. Again, nobody can predict Chris Paul will make a dirty play (actually that probably could be predited) and injure him.

Perry Jones actually played three very good games before getting hurt. But really anything that happened last year means nothing. I was talking about the bench being better and not loaded with old guys. But what happened was most of those guys were thrust into roles as starters and/or got hurt themselves.

Any team can get derailed by injuries. The Thunder had about 10 teams worth of injuries last year. If that happens again, they won't be very good, just like every other team in the NBA. If they stay healthy, they'll contend for the title. What more can a fan ask?

1. Don't raise ticket prices the team didn't make the playoffs last year. Take the financial hit as a matter of good faith the financial windfall comes the next year.

2. That's a big problem OKC has they have become a last resort for a bench player. They won't get the ball much and there is no guarantee how much playing time they will get.

3. Just like my beloved Red Sox with Babe Ruth it can be a lengthy period just getting back to the finals. That's the reason I'm so hard on the owner and I have no team in basketball. He has a very smart gm sign Harden to the max and take your time getting a much better deal. He makes money every year and the franchise valuation has (a guess) to be much higher now. It's a mistake that may live with the team (I hope not for your sake) an extended period of time.

4. I always wondered why the Thunder don't play chippy against The paper clips. I'm sure Mark Cuban would throw in as many legal incentives as he could.

5. Even though Harden isn't a superstar when the playoffs start it would have been much better to have him the following year. One never knows when the light bulb turns on. JJ Barea lit up the Heat and the whole team fed off of his energy.

I'll say this again that I truly hope Durant is ok. Any serious injury to a team's star player (s) is devastating. While everyone says he's ok it always scares me when they come out of the operating room and declare it was successful surgery. I can't recall once in my life that an athlete came out of surgery and there were different words used after the procedure. I don't have a team so watching everyone is a treat for me. If I usually say to myself "wow" at least 15-20 times during a game it was a great one to watch. I once saw Deandre Jordon sky about 2 feet over the rim and my jaw dropped. I could only dunk in a non contact situation and that was incredible I was really jealous.

[Stillriledup]

OKC bench is weak? Really?

It is all going to come down to Durant being healthy for OKC in my opinion. If he is 100%, they'll be as good as anyone. If not, they'll be midpack. But this is by far the best bench they have ever had since I've been a fan.

I actually think Kanter will be 6th man. It will be him, Collison, Waiters, McGary, Singler, Augustin, Morrow, and Payne. That is as deep a bench as you will find in the NBA.

So if OKC has a good bench and a healthy RW, even if KD can't play at all you still think they're mid pack? Who's the 3rd best player in the team?

[cj]

So if OKC has a good bench and a healthy RW, even if KD can't play at all you still think they're mid pack? Who's the 3rd best player in the team?

Yes, because the west is super deep. Third best player on the team is Ibaka I would say.

[cj]

1. Don't raise ticket prices the team didn't make the playoffs last year. Take the financial hit as a matter of good faith the financial windfall comes the next year.

2. That's a big problem OKC has they have become a last resort for a bench player. They won't get the ball much and there is no guarantee how much playing time they will get.

3. Just like my beloved Red Sox with Babe Ruth it can be a lengthy period just getting back to the finals. That's the reason I'm so hard on the owner and I have no team in basketball. He has a very smart gm sign Harden to the max and take your time getting a much better deal. He makes money every year and the franchise valuation has (a guess) to be much higher now. It's a mistake that may live with the team (I hope not for your sake) an extended period of time.

4. I always wondered why the Thunder don't play chippy against The paper clips. I'm sure Mark Cuban would throw in as many legal incentives as he could.

5. Even though Harden isn't a superstar when the playoffs start it would have been much better to have him the following year. One never knows when the light bulb turns on. JJ Barea lit up the Heat and the whole team fed off of his energy.

I'll say this again that I truly hope Durant is ok. Any serious injury to a team's star player (s) is devastating. While everyone says he's ok it always scares me when they come out of the operating room and declare it was successful surgery. I can't recall once in my life that an athlete came out of surgery and there were different words used after the procedure. I don't have a team so watching everyone is a treat for me. If I usually say to myself "wow" at least 15-20 times during a game it was a great one to watch. I once saw Deandre Jordon sky about 2 feet over the rim and my jaw dropped. I could only dunk in a non contact situation and that was incredible I was really jealous.


1) OKC ticket prices are ridiculously cheap comparatively and have been since the inception. If they went up this year, it was like a dollar a ticket, and I sit in good seats.

2) The bench looks pretty darn good to me. Like I said, easily the best they've had since arriving in OKC. The bench they had the year they made the finals was horrible. This one is light years better. Harden and Collison and a bunch of stiffs.

3) James Harden is no Babe Ruth. I have no problem with the trade other than I wish they had waited until after the season that year, not before it. Harden did not want to be in OKC as the third best player on the team and coming off the bench. The GM did the best he could and moved on. There is also plenty I know about Harden off the court that led to his trade, particularly his behavior in Miami during the finals that year. Let's just say he isn't a team first guy and was never going to accept the third wheel role going forward.

4) I have no idea what this means. If you are talking about the Clippers, the Thunder have done fine against them.

5) I agree, I've said this before. I also noted that trade indirectly led to Westbrook getting hurt.

I hear KD is progressing fine, but you never know. The good news is that this isn't the Yao Ming type of injury, it is a different part of the foot, and no player has ever had a career ruined because of this injury. But I also doubt there were many 6'11 guys that play like guards that had it, so who knows? Only time will tell.

[Poindexter]

They made the playoffs last year though, that's gotta count for something?


SRU, don't let these guys get you down. Clippers making incredible off season moves. First Stephenson, then Pierce(how big will he be in the playoffs when they need to hit the money shot-he only has to play about 5 minutes a game during the season), now Josh Smith. They went from having no bench to being absolutely loaded right now. In my book, they are favorites to win it all next year.

[cj]

SRU, don't let these guys get you down. Clippers making incredible off season moves. First Stephenson, then Pierce(how big will he be in the playoffs when they need to hit the money shot-he only has to play about 5 minutes a game during the season), now Josh Smith. They went from having no bench to being absolutely loaded right now. In my book, they are favorites to win it all next year.

You should fly to Vegas and get all the action you want, they are a juicy price. I'm sure SRU is all over it.

[Stillriledup]

Yes, because the west is super deep. Third best player on the team is Ibaka I would say.

Ok, I agree, without KD at full power or close to it, it's not likely they'll be a top 4 team. They should be able to make the playoffs even without KD, hopefully that guy will come back gunsa blazing.

[Stillriledup]

You should fly to Vegas and get all the action you want, they are a juicy price. I'm sure SRU is all over it.

Is that what you learned from my selecting style over the last season, that i blindly bet the Clippers? :D

I know, you were just kidding. ;)

[Stillriledup]

SRU, don't let these guys get you down. Clippers making incredible off season moves. First Stephenson, then Pierce(how big will he be in the playoffs when they need to hit the money shot-he only has to play about 5 minutes a game during the season), now Josh Smith. They went from having no bench to being absolutely loaded right now. In my book, they are favorites to win it all next year.

Clips need to have Jordan and griffin get nasty, they lost a character guy and tough defender in Barnes, I don't know if any of these new guys can defend. Are the Clippers going to win games 119-118?

Jordan is, I guess, their best defender but he's a bit of a softie with a big smile. He needs to come with an edge.

[cj]

Clips need to have Jordan and griffin get nasty, they lost a character guy and tough defender in Barnes, I don't know if any of these new guys can defend. Are the Clippers going to win games 119-118?

Jordan is, I guess, their best defender but he's a bit of a softie with a big smile. He needs to come with an edge.

Where is the incentive for that? He just signed for the max and is set for life. I just don't think he has that desire. Some do, some don't. He'll have to get it from Blake and Chris Paul.

[Poindexter]

Clips need to have Jordan and griffin get nasty, they lost a character guy and tough defender in Barnes, I don't know if any of these new guys can defend. Are the Clippers going to win games 119-118?

Jordan is, I guess, their best defender but he's a bit of a softie with a big smile. He needs to come with an edge.

Jumping ship just when it is about to set sail. Say it isn't so. They are loaded. The defense they lose with Barnes is more than made up with a much better offensive team. I respect Barnes' game to a point, but he is what I consider a feeder. He feeds off of the team. When things are going good he hits 3 pointers like they are layups, but when they are on the verge of blowing a 19 point lead or a 3-2 series lead, you can't find him with a high powered telescope. Losing those types of players are not a loss when it comes to winning a championship. Either you can hit big shots and come up with big plays in big games(as a role player) or your are sort of useless. All 3 guys joining the Clips have hit big shots and made big plays in big games. When it comes to winning championships that is what matters. If you watch the Wizzards in the playoffs. Paul Pierce was unbelievable. Almost led a team that was mediocre all season long to the conference finals. I know he is old, but he is exactly what the Clippers need. There is no reason why this team cannot develop the defensive skills needed to win the championship. It is not one player. It is a team effort and it is much easier when your key guys do not have to play 46 minutes a game. Now if only Jordan will practice free throws enough to get to 55 or 60% life will be all good. Otherwise we have to deal with this hack a Jordan crap again which just screws up all the rhythm in the game.

Cj, I plan to bet them plenty. Don't worry.

[Robert Fischer]

Clips look like champs when they are hot, and chumps when they aren't.

The roster additions only make it sound like more of the same.

Stephenson? - Can't shoot, Headcase. They are hoping he'll be an energy guy and a defense guy and a transition guy.

Josh Smith? - King o' the 'long twos'. He has nights when some shots fall, but he also has nights where he ruins his rotation by shooting a lot of terrible shots.

Paul Pierce? - 100 years old, smart, leader, big 3pt weapon. Potentially their biggest addition, and he's running on fumes.

Clips will have to stay healthy again, get hot in the playoffs, and stay hot.

[lansdale]

For me, there's no doubt that this Clipper teams is the strongest they've ever had, one that certainly would have beaten Houston and made the Finals last year. The most important aspect of this round of new additions, is that it will allow the Big 3 to cut down on their minutes - this will be huge in the postseason.

Re Stephenson, assuming he can regain his form of two years ago, it's obvious he's not there to score - they already have more than enough scoring - but for his defense, playingmaking, and all-around versatility. And Pierce, despite his age, is a huge improvement coming off the bench - although maybe this is not obvious, even at this point in his career, he's also still a better defender than the departed Barnes has ever been. Here's a link to last year's stats for Barnes and Pierce, and the 2013-14 stats of Stephenson. Take a look, especially at the difference between Barnes and Pierce in the post-season - as a previous poster pointed out, Barnes shrinks against stronger competition, Pierce gets better.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=barnema02&y2=2015&p2=piercpa01&y3=2014&p3=stephla01&p4=&p5=&p6=

[Canarsie]

1) OKC ticket prices are ridiculously cheap comparatively and have been since the inception. If they went up this year, it was like a dollar a ticket, and I sit in good seats.

2) The bench looks pretty darn good to me. Like I said, easily the best they've had since arriving in OKC. The bench they had the year they made the finals was horrible. This one is light years better. Harden and Collison and a bunch of stiffs.

3) James Harden is no Babe Ruth. I have no problem with the trade other than I wish they had waited until after the season that year, not before it. Harden did not want to be in OKC as the third best player on the team and coming off the bench. The GM did the best he could and moved on. There is also plenty I know about Harden off the court that led to his trade, particularly his behavior in Miami during the finals that year. Let's just say he isn't a team first guy and was never going to accept the third wheel role going forward.

4) I have no idea what this means. If you are talking about the Clippers, the Thunder have done fine against them.

5) I agree, I've said this before. I also noted that trade indirectly led to Westbrook getting hurt.

I hear KD is progressing fine, but you never know. The good news is that this isn't the Yao Ming type of injury, it is a different part of the foot, and no player has ever had a career ruined because of this injury. But I also doubt there were many 6'11 guys that play like guards that had it, so who knows? Only time will tell.

A buck is very reasonable even five would be ok for the good seats. That's less than you leave a person performing valet service.

Only time will tell on the bench. I respect your opinion and watched and rewatched Morrow and wasn't really impressed. But subs can be spectacular one year and decline dramatically the next. The same deal goes for an underachiever he can become sixth man of the year quickly. Waiters is a nice player who will last at least ten seasons in the NBA and play for twelve teams. I stole that comment from a gm or similar don't want to be known as a plagiarizer

The problem with the trade was they had nobody at any position to replace Harden and to be fair his awful defense. His energy was off the charts and players feed off of that. You can see it with the Thunder when Westbrook gets rolling turning the ball over goes down and setting screens and picks become a priority to keep the momentum going.


By playing chippy I mean an accidental flying elbow or something similar directed at the "dirty" player yet getting away with just a plain hard common foul or flagrant one. Sort of what Dellavedova should expect next year from a bunch of teams the NBA is a "brotherhood". If he did that to an OKC player I'm pretty sure other teams players wouldn't mind contributing to playing hard in a scrum or loose ball. Chris Paul is also a dirty sorry SRU.

To be honest I never posted it but thought Dellavedova was a bottom ten percent player in the NBA. He made me look like a jackass for most of the playoffs but when your not "great" your form usually reverts to what your deserved playing minutes should be.

[Valuist]

NBA players vote Harden Player of the Year? What a joke. Great offensive player, but a cardboard cutout on the defensive end. Apparently the players in the league DON'T know more than those who cover it.

[Canarsie]

NBA players vote Harden Player of the Year? What a joke. Great offensive player, but a cardboard cutout on the defensive end. Apparently the players in the league DON'T know more than those who cover it.

While I think it was Curry hands down they are entitled to have their own awards if it makes them happy. The mere fact that it was taped a few days before airing shows how much anticipation these awards matter.

We as fans get to see many more games than the players and can form strong opinions on what we see. An eastern conference foe only sees Harden twice and might see Curry much less since Golden States win margin was around 15 (not 100% sure of this) and Curry could rest most of the 4th quarter because the outcome of the game was already decided. The Rockets didn't have that luxury and kept their starters in games longer.

[cj]

Harden took a team that didn't have much at all to the conference finals. They were the #2 seed in the very difficult west. I think Curry deserved MVP, but Harden wasn't much behind at all. Look at the roster and injuries the Rockets dealt with this season.

[Robert Goren]

Harden took a team that didn't have much at all to the conference finals. They were the #2 seed in the very difficult west. I think Curry deserved MVP, but Harden wasn't much behind at all. Look at the roster and injuries the Rockets dealt with this season.For a guy that is suppose to have a ton of holes in his game, he carried his team a long way.

[cj]

For a guy that is suppose to have a ton of holes in his game, he carried his team a long way.

Exactly. Everyone praised Lebron in the Finals for doing basically the same thing Harden did all season long.

[ronsmac]

If I did that lower my arms then raise them real quick into a players face like Harden when I was hooping in the mean streets of bmore, I'd have been in 3 fights a day. Good player , and he always gets the call but it is lame as hell.

[Robert Fischer]

Harden is a good ballplayer and sometimes he is able to play up to the level of a LeBron or Durant.


- also saw the early nba odds the other day post FA and draft, and OKC was fairly low. Could be some indication that Durant is expected by many to recover.

[cj]

If I did that lower my arms then raise them real quick into a players face like Harden when I was hooping in the mean streets of bmore, I'd have been in 3 fights a day. Good player , and he always gets the call but it is lame as hell.

As opposed to LeFlop James? LOLOL.

[ronsmac]

As opposed to LeFlop James? LOLOL.That's your best comeback? Reminds me of an Andrew Dice Clay reboot. Like when some of my coworkers at my shitty job get mad at the man for reprimanding them and then get mad at me for not joining in their fight for "justice". " No the boss doesn't hate you because , it's because you suck at you're job. " LeBron flopped so that excuses Harden? Plus dude needs to shave that f-ing beard. Nobody wants to get close to him.

[cj]

That's your best comeback? Reminds me of an Andrew Dice Clay reboot. Like when some of my coworkers at my shitty job get mad at the man for reprimanding them and then get mad at me for not joining in their fight for "justice". " No the boss doesn't hate you because , it's because you suck at you're job. " LeBron flopped so that excuses Harden? Plus dude needs to shave that f-ing beard. Nobody wants to get close to him.

I hate flopping. I just found it odd that a guy that has Lebron as his favorite player would rip another guy for flopping. I can't even blame them for doing it. The NBA needs to stop it, otherwise the players will continue.

[Canarsie]

Exactly. Everyone praised Lebron in the Finals for doing basically the same thing Harden did all season long.

The regular season is just a placing for the run to the title games which matters approximately 100%. Lots of great players come up small especially in their debut. OKC was favored over Miami and most thought they would win especially after the Dallas final the year before. But Harden and others came up small giving LJ his first title. NOBODY can anticipate how certain players will perform in a nationally televised series Westbrook was heavily blasted one game and praised the next. If they can they should be on a fantasy commercial stating they won a million bucks.


In the finals Kerr basically said Lebron you can score your points but the others aren't beating us. It was absolutely brilliant especially from a rookie coach whose ability I "stupidly" questioned.

I also didn't see everyone praising Lebron lots pointed out how many shots he was taking and his shooting percentage. Even when the Cavaliers were up 2-1 many stuck to their guns staying with GS.

[cj]

The regular season is just a placing for the run to the title games which matters approximately 100%. Lots of great players come up small especially in their debut. OKC was favored over Miami and most thought they would win especially after the Dallas final the year before. But Harden and others came up small giving LJ his first title. NOBODY can anticipate how certain players will perform in a nationally televised series Westbrook was heavily blasted one game and praised the next. If they can they should be on a fantasy commercial stating they won a million bucks.


In the finals Kerr basically said Lebron you can score your points but the others aren't beating us. It was absolutely brilliant especially from a rookie coach whose ability I "stupidly" questioned.

I also didn't see everyone praising Lebron lots pointed out how many shots he was taking and his shooting percentage. Even when the Cavaliers were up 2-1 many stuck to their guns staying with GS.

There was a huge clamoring for giving Lebron the series MVP. It cooled the last couple games when he shot poorly. But this was about MVP, which is a regular season award. Maybe the award given by the players is all encompassing, I really don't know. I can't imagine it would be if Curry didn't win it.

[Canarsie]

There was a huge clamoring for giving Lebron the series MVP. It cooled the last couple games when he shot poorly. But this was about MVP, which is a regular season award. Maybe the award given by the players is all encompassing, I really don't know. I can't imagine it would be if Curry didn't win it.

A player's award can also be a vote for my friend contest. Just look at the vacation photos of LJ, CP, and I can't even remember the others that's how important it was to me. Again it was taped Sunday for a Wednesday showing the channel knew it wasn't going to produce solid numbers.

Since its a player's award I really would be interested to find out who finished second my gut tells me LJ instead of Curry.

While it doesn't matter my opinion is the NBA has surpassed MLB in off season coverage today is July 25. Say what you want against Adam Silver but at least to me he is looking into the future progressively and keeping NBA talk alive first tipoff