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dragon49
06-30-2015, 06:42 PM
I was watching a live video feed of Mountaineer last night, and there was at least 1 inquiry in one of the races. I don't remember the race # or name of the horses involved.

After the announcer mentioned an inquiry, the feed showed multiple replays of the incident. It was very clear that at the beginning of the stretch, a horse on the outside clearly went sideways and collided with the horse just to the inside of him. The outside horse then cut in front of the other horse, taking his lane and finishing ahead of the horse that he cut off.

The inquiry was disallowed and the results stood. I have no idea whether this was the fault of the Jockey, but how can this be allowed? Can somebody who witnessed the race and is a more experienced horse racing fan please comment on this. I didn't have any wagers on the race, so the outcome didn't hurt me financially, but it offended my sense of justice.

I watch Mountaineer and some other feeds on and off, and have NEVER seen an inquiry upheld, despite lots of bumping and obvious interference.

I have 3 questions?

1 - What constitutes a foul?
2 - For Mountaineer and other tracks, does anybody keep track of the percentage of inquiries upheld?
3 - Were standards once different, or is horse racing considered a "tough" sport, with almost anything allowed?

no breathalyzer
06-30-2015, 07:21 PM
1. depends whatever the stewards bet :lol:
honestly i think mountaineer has the worst stewards since i been watching racing.. seen more explainable dq's non dq's there then any other racetrack by far..

for the record i didn't see the race you are talking about

EMD4ME
06-30-2015, 07:23 PM
I was watching a live video feed of Mountaineer last night, and there was at least 1 inquiry in one of the races. I don't remember the race # or name of the horses involved.

After the announcer mentioned an inquiry, the feed showed multiple replays of the incident. It was very clear that at the beginning of the stretch, a horse on the outside clearly went sideways and collided with the horse just to the inside of him. The outside horse then cut in front of the other horse, taking his lane and finishing ahead of the horse that he cut off.

The inquiry was disallowed and the results stood. I have no idea whether this was the fault of the Jockey, but how can this be allowed? Can somebody who witnessed the race and is a more experienced horse racing fan please comment on this. I didn't have any wagers on the race, so the outcome didn't hurt me financially, but it offended my sense of justice.

I watch Mountaineer and some other feeds on and off, and have NEVER seen an inquiry upheld, despite lots of bumping and obvious interference.

I have 3 questions?

1 - What constitutes a foul?
2 - For Mountaineer and other tracks, does anybody keep track of the percentage of inquiries upheld?
3 - Were standards once different, or is horse racing considered a "tough" sport, with almost anything allowed?

See the DQ (or Non DQ) thread. Many words were spoken about this race in the last 36 hours. That will help a bit.

dragon49
06-30-2015, 08:36 PM
See the DQ (or Non DQ) thread. Many words were spoken about this race in the last 36 hours. That will help a bit.



Thanks - I'll take a look at the thread—I hope we are talking about the same race, as the one I was talking about happened 24-27 hours ago.

dragon49
06-30-2015, 08:52 PM
Something about forum time stamps are off, but the race I was referring to was mentioned about in the thread:

tonights 7th at MTN. coming into the stretch bug rider on the 2 horse about causes a 3 horse pile up after coming 3 deep. He goes to a hard right stick, horse ducks in causing the 5 to check up sharply. He finishes third, stays up. No blood no foul.

I had no dog in the fight but these MTN stewards are something else. Check the replay if you would like.

I replied there.

EMD4ME
06-30-2015, 09:17 PM
Thanks - I'll take a look at the thread—I hope we are talking about the same race, as the one I was talking about happened 24-27 hours ago.

Hey Dragon, you're welcome. PA and CJ moved all DQ discussions to that thread, makes it easier.

I hear what your saying. I am from the school that a foul is a foul but I have adapted to the newer school (in some states) that a foul is not a foul if it didn't effect the outcome of the race. IMHO, the 5 was fried, the 2 was getting 3rd anyway.

I got screwed for thousands in Sunday's last Emerald. HOWEVER, I understood and can agree with the decision, despite it being a foul as long as they are consistent with it.

My horse was on the lead turning for home, the 2 wide stalker was getting by (90%) and as he got by, he crushed me.

Stewards said it was a foul but they think the 2 wide presser was getting by so no change.

They gave the jock 2 days (which is 2/3 of a week there).

Hope that helps.

dragon49
06-30-2015, 09:59 PM
Hey Dragon, you're welcome. PA and CJ moved all DQ discussions to that thread, makes it easier.

I hear what your saying. I am from the school that a foul is a foul but I have adapted to the newer school (in some states) that a foul is not a foul if it didn't effect the outcome of the race. IMHO, the 5 was fried, the 2 was getting 3rd anyway.

I got screwed for thousands in Sunday's last Emerald. HOWEVER, I understood and can agree with the decision, despite it being a foul as long as they are consistent with it.

My horse was on the lead turning for home, the 2 wide stalker was getting by (90%) and as he got by, he crushed me.

Stewards said it was a foul but they think the 2 wide presser was getting by so no change.

They gave the jock 2 days (which is 2/3 of a week there).

Hope that helps.

I appreciate the clarification. I've been a fan and occasional bettor for the last 4 or 5 years, but still consider myself a newbie. I can understand "no calls" when multiple horses are turning at the same time and they bump into each other (A saw a funny example of this in a recent 2 furlong race at Mountaineer) but the "no call" from yesterday's race really floored me.

I do see the point in not changing the outcome of a race, if it is 100% clear that the foul didn't influence the outcome, but the offending jockey needs to be punished to set an example. I certainly hope that the jockey who rode the #2 horse in the trace we are talking about,(Euclyn Prentice, Jr) receives some sort of fine or suspension. A suspension may not have any value, if the jockey doesn't have any races coming up.

EMD4ME
06-30-2015, 10:07 PM
I appreciate the clarification. I've been a fan and occasional bettor for the last 4 or 5 years, but still consider myself a newbie. I can understand "no calls" when multiple horses are turning at the same time and they bump into each other (A saw a funny example of this in a recent 2 furlong race at Mountaineer) but the "no call" from yesterday's race really floored me.

I do see the point in not changing the outcome of a race, if it is 100% clear that the foul didn't influence the outcome, but the offending jockey needs to be punished to set an example. I certainly hope that the jockey who rode the #2 horse in the trace we are talking about,(Euclyn Prentice, Jr) receives some sort of fine or suspension. A suspension may not have any value, if the jockey doesn't have any races coming up.

Well then welcome aboard! In no other sport will your intellectual side EVER be turned on as it is in this game.

I have no idea if the MNR jock will get days....I would give him some.

You're right, if he doesn't have mounts it won't punish him much. As an apprentice (I think he is, didn't check) they might go light on him LOL.

thespaah
06-30-2015, 11:46 PM
I was watching a live video feed of Mountaineer last night, and there was at least 1 inquiry in one of the races. I don't remember the race # or name of the horses involved.

After the announcer mentioned an inquiry, the feed showed multiple replays of the incident. It was very clear that at the beginning of the stretch, a horse on the outside clearly went sideways and collided with the horse just to the inside of him. The outside horse then cut in front of the other horse, taking his lane and finishing ahead of the horse that he cut off.

The inquiry was disallowed and the results stood. I have no idea whether this was the fault of the Jockey, but how can this be allowed? Can somebody who witnessed the race and is a more experienced horse racing fan please comment on this. I didn't have any wagers on the race, so the outcome didn't hurt me financially, but it offended my sense of justice.

I watch Mountaineer and some other feeds on and off, and have NEVER seen an inquiry upheld, despite lots of bumping and obvious interference.

I have 3 questions?

1 - What constitutes a foul?
2 - For Mountaineer and other tracks, does anybody keep track of the percentage of inquiries upheld?
3 - Were standards once different, or is horse racing considered a "tough" sport, with almost anything allowed?
My understanding of the rules.
1. a horse must lose his action
2. contact causes the rider to lose his stirrups
3. contact causes the rider to pull up and lose all chance
4. contact causes a horse to lose significant ground
5. a jockey deliberately or by careless or reckless riding, allows or causes his mount to cross over or "cut off" the path of a contending horse
For a disqualification the rider or fouling horse must finish ahead of the horse or horses fouled
Other issues.
1. a jockey that strikes another horse or rider of another horse with his whip.
2 a jockey removes his foot from stirrup to kick another horse or rider.
3 deliberately by rising action intimidates another rider or horse.
There could be more.
Paging Vic S......

v j stauffer
07-01-2015, 03:35 AM
My understanding of the rules.
1. a horse must lose his action
2. contact causes the rider to lose his stirrups
3. contact causes the rider to pull up and lose all chance
4. contact causes a horse to lose significant ground
5. a jockey deliberately or by careless or reckless riding, allows or causes his mount to cross over or "cut off" the path of a contending horse
For a disqualification the rider or fouling horse must finish ahead of the horse or horses fouled
Other issues.
1. a jockey that strikes another horse or rider of another horse with his whip.
2 a jockey removes his foot from stirrup to kick another horse or rider.
3 deliberately by rising action intimidates another rider or horse.
There could be more.
Paging Vic S......

I'd like to look at the tapes of this inquiry at Mountaineer. Can somebody please post a link?

As for the examples. All are correct. Remember though in California and most other states those actions must have in the opinion of the stewards cost the fouled or offended horse the opportunity of a better placing. Did the offender cost the rival a chance at finishing where he would be reasonably expected to.

PaceAdvantage
07-01-2015, 11:25 AM
Something about forum time stamps are off, but the race I was referring to was mentioned about in the thread:If your forum time stamps are off, click the UserCP (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/usercp.php?) and then click EDIT OPTIONS on the left, scroll to the Date & Time Options section and make sure your time zone is correct and also fool around with the DST Correction option. One of those three options will display the forum time correctly. I'm still dealing with an ancient version of this message board and I'm sure when I get around to updating this kind of thing will be automated.

My apologies.

EMD4ME
07-01-2015, 12:50 PM
I'd like to look at the tapes of this inquiry at Mountaineer. Can somebody please post a link?

As for the examples. All are correct. Remember though in California and most other states those actions must have in the opinion of the stewards cost the fouled or offended horse the opportunity of a better placing. Did the offender cost the rival a chance at finishing where he would be reasonably expected to.
http://www.calracing.com/live-video/replays/

Just pop in "Golden Shiner" in the horse search field. It's June 29th, race 7.

v j stauffer
07-01-2015, 01:34 PM
http://www.calracing.com/live-video/replays/

Just pop in "Golden Shiner" in the horse search field. It's June 29th, race 7.

EMD4ME thanks for the link!

WOW. You talk about much ado over NOTHING.

Three horses involved. #2 rallies up three wide. Bug boy who clearly needs a lot of work tries to do something even experienced riders struggle with. Finish a turn, hope to get his mount to switch leads, keep him straight and whip right handed. A recipe for completely disaster. When he feebly uncocks his whip trying to get in a few smacks right handed the inevitable happens. Both he and his mount are exhausted and there's ZERO chance they'll continue on a straight path. All things being equal I thought he did an OK job of taking hold and straightening after he sideswiped the #5. He probably barely knew those two were in there until he felt contact and the two riders yelled " hey idiot! What the F are you doing? Where the F are you going. Rest assured this conversation continued back in the room when the jocks watched the replay. Typical bug boy stuff. Pretty bad but IMO far from considering pulling his license. Which BTW stewards can do in situations like this.

As far as a potential DQ. Watch the riders on the #5 and #4 well before the bug boy on the #2 arrives. They had thrown in the towel. They knew they were getting nothing and saw no reason to abuse their mounts with whipping that would be futile. Both had taken a solid hold and were hand riding. They were both going to finish FAR back. If the bug rider had circled 10 wide and never got close to them both were still going to be beaten multiple lengths. Nothing was going to change that. So why would the stewards? In fact the guy on the #4 in the yellow saw it coming long before it happened. He deftly got the hell out of there before he got dropped. That's how young, good, experienced riders become old, good experienced riders. Also you can be sure all the other riders in this race knew exactly where the 10lb bug was at all times.

DAYS? I very sure he received a suspension and was strongly admonished he'd have to do much better. He was also reminded to use the resources of the veteran riders in the room to learn and improve. The self policing that happens in the jocks room is 100 times more effective than sitting in the stewards office for 20 minutes.

Rookie mistake by a rookie that must get better.

BTW the worst, most dangerous apprentice I've ever seen was Patrick Valenzuela. He was just as likely to go over the outside fence or drop someone than win the race.

He turned out to be a decent rider. :)

EMD4ME
07-01-2015, 02:51 PM
EMD4ME thanks for the link!

WOW. You talk about much ado over NOTHING.

Three horses involved. #2 rallies up three wide. Bug boy who clearly needs a lot of work tries to do something even experienced riders struggle with. Finish a turn, hope to get his mount to switch leads, keep him straight and whip right handed. A recipe for completely disaster. When he feebly uncocks his whip trying to get in a few smacks right handed the inevitable happens. Both he and his mount are exhausted and there's ZERO chance they'll continue on a straight path. All things being equal I thought he did an OK job of taking hold and straightening after he sideswiped the #5. He probably barely knew those two were in there until he felt contact and the two riders yelled " hey idiot! What the F are you doing? Where the F are you going. Rest assured this conversation continued back in the room when the jocks watched the replay. Typical bug boy stuff. Pretty bad but IMO far from considering pulling his license. Which BTW stewards can do in situations like this.

As far as a potential DQ. Watch the riders on the #5 and #4 well before the bug boy on the #2 arrives. They had thrown in the towel. They knew they were getting nothing and saw no reason to abuse their mounts with whipping that would be futile. Both had taken a solid hold and were hand riding. They were both going to finish FAR back. If the bug rider had circled 10 wide and never got close to them both were still going to be beaten multiple lengths. Nothing was going to change that. So why would the stewards? In fact the guy on the #4 in the yellow saw it coming long before it happened. He deftly got the hell out of there before he got dropped. That's how young, good, experienced riders become old, good experienced riders. Also you can be sure all the other riders in this race knew exactly where the 10lb bug was at all times.

DAYS? I very sure he received a suspension and was strongly admonished he'd have to do much better. He was also reminded to use the resources of the veteran riders in the room to learn and improve. The self policing that happens in the jocks room is 100 times more effective than sitting in the stewards office for 20 minutes.

Rookie mistake by a rookie that must get better.

BTW the worst, most dangerous apprentice I've ever seen was Patrick Valenzuela. He was just as likely to go over the outside fence or drop someone than win the race.

He turned out to be a decent rider. :)

You're welcome.

I'm usually the first to say what the heck were they thinking but in this case, it was an easy call. No DQ as the result wasn't impacted at all.