South Carolina Church Shootings

[cj's dad]

Reports that 9 have been murdered in a random shooting in a Columbia S.C.
Others injured. A suspect is on the loose.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/us/church-attacked-in-charleston-south-carolina.html

[Marshall Bennett]

Suspect still on the run. I can hear black leaders now. Had the suspect been black he would have been immediately apprehended. Because he's white, he's been given a head start. :cool:
A true tragedy none the less.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm having a bit of a confused moment. They say they are looking for a white man as the suspect. Yet the NYT article that is linked in this thread shows a picture of the suspect...he doesn't look white to me...what am I missing?

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/06/19/world/10charleston11-web/10charleston11-web-master675.jpg
Charleston police released a photograph taken from surveillance footage of the man who is believed to be the gunman. Credit Charleston Police Department, via Reuters

[Robert Goren]

The pictures they are showing on TV has skin tone a lot lighter. For what that is worth.

[Clocker]

I'm having a bit of a confused moment. They say they are looking for a white man as the suspect. Yet the NYT article that is linked in this thread shows a picture of the suspect...he doesn't look white to me...what am I missing?

Bad picture.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/charleston-shooter-identified.jpg


Previous arrest for drug charges.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/dylann-roof-370x463.jpg

[Mystic]

Hopefully he will put a gun to his head at some point today and be done with it.

[ReplayRandall]

I'm having a bit of a confused moment. They say they are looking for a white man as the suspect. Yet the NYT article that is linked in this thread shows a picture of the suspect...he doesn't look white to me...what am I missing?

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/06/19/world/10charleston11-web/10charleston11-web-master675.jpg
Charleston police released a photograph taken from surveillance footage of the man who is believed to be the gunman. Credit Charleston Police Department, via Reuters

Skin tone in picture has that "Dolezal" look, doesn't it?

[Clocker]

Everything is under control. Al Sharpton is on the way to SC to insure everyone remains calm and orderly.

[Grits]

Can someone explain? Why is it, the shooters in the majority of mass killings are pissant size guys?

You take their guns away from them, not only could they not kill anyone, they couldn't defend themselves. They couldn't slap, much less fight, their own way out of a wet paper bag. What a punk, this one is.

Prayers for the people he murdered.

[Tom]

Everything is under control. Al Sharpton is on the way to SC to insure everyone remains calm and orderly.
Like a fly to dog poop.

[Inner Dirt]

Anyone notice how lately a good amount of mass shooters are young, white, slightly built social misfit, nerd types? Hope he kills himself or better yet tries to hide out in a residential area of Baltimore.

[Inner Dirt]

Can someone explain? Why is it, the shooters in the majority of mass killings are pissant size guys?

You take their guns away from them, not only could they not kill anyone, they couldn't defend themselves. They couldn't slap, much less fight, their own way out of a wet paper bag. What a punk, this one is.

Prayers for the people he murdered.

We were typing at the same time, you beat me to it.

[ReplayRandall]

Just caught him in Shelby, NC, half-hour west of Charlotte...

[PaceAdvantage]

Bad picture.Clearly...it's almost as if he has something on his skin to make it darker...

I wish Darwinism would take care of these types of people a lot sooner...before they're able to spread their particular kind of crazy to the rest of us...

[Grits]

I always wonder which attribute precedes the other. The hate. Or, the crazy. One thing that is known.. this little fella ain't gonna do well in prison.

[Clocker]

I wish Darwinism would take care of these types of people a lot sooner...before they're able to spread their particular kind of crazy to the rest of us...

I await the comments from friends and family about what a quiet, polite young man he was, and how this is totally unexpected and out of character.

[Marshall Bennett]

One thing that is known.. this little fella ain't gonna do well in prison.
In a more perfect world, they'd take his type and throw him in with the prison general population, preferably a cell block full of black child molesters.
Putting a gun to his head is too easy and painless. :)

[TJDave]

One thing that is known.. this little fella ain't gonna do well in prison.

South Carolina has the death penalty.

[Clocker]

South Carolina has the death penalty.

They also have the insanity defense. This is likely to turn into another public spectacle.

This is also going to turn into another crusade for stricter gun controls. The weapon is said to be a .45 semi auto that his father gave him for his birthday.

In the most recent push in Congress for more gun controls, the proposed bill pushed by Chuck Schumer and others included very strict background check requirements, to the point that a gift from a father to a son would require a check. As far as I know, SC has no requirement for a background check on any private party transfer.

If the kid has nothing on his record other than a drug bust, he probably would have passed a federal check anyway. So of course now the federal check has to be made harder.

[Clocker]

And so it begins:

In a press briefing early Thursday afternoon, Obama said the massacre should spark national introspection about the availability of guns. That it took place in a black church also “raises questions about a dark part of history, he said.

Sounds like it is time for two more national dialogues, this time about guns and race.

Also, the Justice Department has already started an investigation into this as a possible hate crime. :rolleyes:

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150618/PC16/150619404

[FantasticDan]

http://thismodernworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/TMW2011-01-12acolorlowres-copy.jpg

[Tom]

The kid got away in a CAR.
We have to outlaw cars.

And the door to the Church was unlocked!
We need to outlaw open doors.

[JustRalph]

A 19 yr old introvert without a drivers license, no social life etc, taking psychotropic drugs.......and some idiot gives him a .45 for his birthday.

I know who should be going to prison...........

[fast4522]

You can blame it on sins of the father, but I think this kid would have killed even if he did not have a gun. In a few days you will be able to profile this nutcase better. I could be wrong but I think pure hate is on the rise all over (not just the US), race, religion, what have you.

[TJDave]

A 19 yr old introvert without a drivers license, no social life etc, taking psychotropic drugs.......and some idiot gives him a .45 for his birthday.

I know who should be going to prison...........

Accessory to murder.

Second amendment be damned but stupid careless people shouldn't own guns. I've had friends try and hand me a loaded weapon. They got an earful.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why do some people continue to live under the delusion that a perfect world can be manufactured by imperfect human beings?

No matter how many laws you pass or how many implements of death you outlaw, you'll never stop one human being from killing another...or lots of others.

[tucker6]

And so it begins:



Sounds like it is time for two more national dialogues, this time about guns and race.

Also, the Justice Department has already started an investigation into this as a possible hate crime. :rolleyes:

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150618/PC16/150619404
Did that quote from Obama occur before or after he spoke out against black on black crime?

Also, do we really need an investigation into whether he hates blacks after going out of his way to kill nine of them in a church?

[JustRalph]

Why do some people continue to live under the delusion that a perfect world can be manufactured by imperfect human beings?

No matter how many laws you pass or how many implements of death you outlaw, you'll never stop one human being from killing another...or lots of others.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

[whodoyoulike]

Can someone explain? Why is it, the shooters in the majority of mass killings are pissant size guys?

You take their guns away from them, not only could they not kill anyone, they couldn't defend themselves. They couldn't slap, much less fight, their own way out of a wet paper bag. What a punk, this one is.

Prayers for the people he murdered.

I always felt these people are just BULLIES who think they're always better than someone else when they're really just PUSSIES when confronted.

I've seen enough people who act this way over the years. They're really brave when they have a weapon and the victims are just going about their own business and never expecting someone to act out in this manner.

[Tom]

Did that quote from Obama occur before or after he spoke out against black on black crime?

Also, do we really need an investigation into whether he hates blacks after going out of his way to kill nine of them in a church?

Would he be better person if he didn't hate them, just picked them at random?

[TJDave]

Why do some people continue to live under the delusion that a perfect world can be manufactured by imperfect human beings?

No matter how many laws you pass or how many implements of death you outlaw, you'll never stop one human being from killing another...or lots of others.

A more perfect world should be the goal.

I am a responsible gun owner but know several who aren't. I believe that could be echoed by every owner.

More restrictions are needed on how guns are sold and to whom.

[tucker6]

Would he be better person if he didn't hate them, just picked them at random?
Exactly.

How much have we spent on all these DOJ hate crime investigations? I certainly don't condone racism of any kind, but I think the govt wastes entirely too much money investigating the obvious, such as this case. Whether they find that he was a racist or not, what is the point? How will they use this info to prevent the next nut from killing?

[tucker6]

More restrictions are needed on how guns are sold and to whom.
How would your statement have prevented the church killings specifically? You cannot pass enough laws preventing stupidity on the part of the father.

[PaceAdvantage]

A more perfect world should be the goal.

I am a responsible gun owner but know several who aren't. I believe that could be echoed by every owner.

More restrictions are needed on how guns are sold and to whom.Yes, we can micromanage ad infinitum, creating new laws whenever something that doesn't fit into the system pops up, until we account for every possible way to obtain a weapon and kill people with said weapon...what fun...

At what point do we say, "hey, we have plenty of laws and regulations on the books...we're doing the best we can."

Or will we not rest until Americans are completely legislated out of each and every freedom they once possessed?

[tucker6]

Or will we not rest until Americans are completely legislated out of each and every freedom they once possessed?
There are many in this country that will not rest until this happens.

[TJDave]

How would your statement have prevented the church killings specifically? You cannot pass enough laws preventing stupidity on the part of the father.

Laws do not prevent specific events, they make them less likely to occur. More restrictions on family weapon transfers would do exactly that.

[TJDave]

Or will we not rest until Americans are completely legislated out of each and every freedom they once possessed?

What specific freedoms are we being legislated out of?

[Tom]

More restrictions are needed on how guns are sold and to whom.

Gun ownership is a basic human right in our constitution.
That same document provide exactly what the control freaks whine about - the legal method to change that.

The Constitution can be amended.
The second amendment can be changed or eliminated.

Stop whining, libs, and tryingt o pass illegal laws.
FOLLOW THE PLAN, MAN.

Or are you too stinking lazy?

[Clocker]

Why do some people continue to live under the delusion that a perfect world can be manufactured by imperfect human beings?


It is called blind faith.

Thomas Sowell talks about this in his book, A Conflict of Vision. He says that your vision of human nature shapes your politics.

Some people have what he calls an unconstrained vision of human nature. They believe that society is ultimately perfectible with the leadership and guidance of those further along the road of moral development. Which is to say, themselves. The self-anointed. These people tend to be big government liberals.

Other have a constrained vision of human nature. They believe that human nature is unchangeable and inherently focused on self-interest. They believe that through rule of law and empirical experience, people can cooperate and compromise in their own self-interest to build a workable society. These people tend to be small government conservatives.

[Clocker]

More restrictions are needed on how guns are sold and to whom.

Two of the most restrictive jurisdictions for gun control in this country are Chicago and Maryland. How's that working out?

[Clocker]

More restrictions on family weapon transfers would do exactly that.

That's the ticket. We need more government interference with how adults raise their children. Let's just take the kids away when they are old enough to walk and talk, put them in education camps, and give them back when they are 21. Otherwise the kids might eat something bad for them, or play outside unsupervised.

Oops, that wouldn't work. This kid was 21 when his father gave him a gun. Maybe 25 would be better.

[JustRalph]

Don Lemon gets harassed on CNN

She gives it to Obama too.........

https://youtu.be/WWFNpb17o1o?t=69

[Robert Goren]

Gun ownership is a basic human right in our constitution.
That same document provide exactly what the control freaks whine about - the legal method to change that.

The Constitution can be amended.
The second amendment can be changed or eliminated.

Stop whining, libs, and tryingt o pass illegal laws.
FOLLOW THE PLAN, MAN.

Or are you too stinking lazy?The second amendment has not always been interpreted that way. During about the 100 years after the amendment was not interpreted that way. You will not find any writings by the forefathers who wrote and who were instrumental the bill of rights that support that view. As far as I can determine, it was not until after the Civil War that the idea was even advanced by anyone of prominence. The Supreme Court has now accepted this idea and we must live and die by it until it is either amended or the court changes its mind once again. I do not see either happening any time soon.
I have no idea if there is a place in the United States where the laws would have stopped the father from giving his son a gun, but I guessing there isn't. I am not sure there should be. I think it is safe to say that the father did not have clue that his son would commit this crime(s) or he would have never gave him a gun. I a firm believer that we should do everything possible to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people. As of right now, I have not heard anything that even suggests that anyone thought he was mentally ill before the shooting. He does appear to at this time to be like Jared Loughner who almost everybody can in contact with him thought he was crazy as a loon.

[whodoyoulike]

Gun ownership is a basic human right in our constitution.
That same document provide exactly what the control freaks whine about - the legal method to change that.

The Constitution can be amended.
The second amendment can be changed or eliminated.

Stop whining, libs, and tryingt o pass illegal laws.
FOLLOW THE PLAN, MAN.

Or are you too stinking lazy?

I have no problem with these thoughts or arguments as long as the guns you're only allowed to own and use are similar to the ones which were available at the time the constitution was written.

I know the writers never envisioned the types of weapons which are currently available and accessible today.

[Clocker]

I know the writers never envisioned the types of weapons which are currently available and accessible today.

They never envisioned the internet either. Does that mean that the first amendment should not apply to electronic media?

[whodoyoulike]

They never envisioned the internet either. Does that mean that the first amendment should not apply to electronic media?


I thought he was discussing the right to bear arms which is the subject of the 2nd amendment.

[classhandicapper]

Liberals have some very good points on guns. The problem is that I don't trust liberals to implement any laws restricting guns. They would do so many cockamamie things, by the time it was over they'd just give me another reason to want to leave the country.

[Marshall Bennett]

This has turned into just another gun control thread.
Gun control has little to do with this shooting. The brat could have just as easily thrown gasoline on the group and set the place ablaze. He would have found another avenue to orchestrate his hatred.
Until moral values cease from nose-diving in this country, matters will only get worse. Race relations are worse than ever. They too will never improve as long as black leaders continue to blame whites for all their problems and stir shit with all their public performances.
Liberals want to take charge and be the moral authority. As long as they rip at the moral fiber that supports family values, we'll never stand a chance.
People for the most part are blind to the destruction. as long as their ipads smartphones and cyber network is up and running, nothing else matters.

[JustRalph]

This has turned into just another gun control thread.
Gun control has little to do with this shooting. The brat could have just as easily thrown gasoline on the group and set the place ablaze. He would have found another avenue to orchestrate his hatred.
Until moral values cease from nose-diving in this country, matters will only get worse. Race relations are worse than ever. They too will never improve as long as black leaders continue to blame whites for all their problems and stir shit with all their public performances.
Liberals want to take charge and be the moral authority. As long as they rip at the moral fiber that supports family values, we'll never stand a chance.
People for the most part are blind to the destruction. as long as their ipads smartphones and cyber network is up and running, nothing else matters.


Amen! :ThmbUp:

[FantasticDan]

Race relations are worse than ever. They too will never improve as long as black leaders continue to blame whites for all their problems and stir shit with all their public performances.Worse than ever, huh? Okay, say you're a black man living in Mississippi, which of the following years would you choose to live there:

1860
1960
2015

That last year is an obvious throw away.. :lol:

It should also be noted that your criticism of black leaders was the same that racists and segregationists levied against MLK..

[JustRalph]

Worse than ever, huh? Okay, say you're a black man living in Mississippi, which of the following years would you choose to live there:

1860
1960
2015

That last year is an obvious throw away.. :lol:

It should also be noted that your criticism of black leaders was the same that racists and segregationists levied against MLK..

you know he wasn't referring to 2 hundred years ago. The context was obvious. Not even 50 yrs ago. come on Dan........ ?

[FantasticDan]

Oh okay, by worse than ever he meant 1984. Or 1998. My bad. :rolleyes:

[MONEY]

Oh okay, by worse than ever he meant 1984. Or 1998. My bad. :rolleyes:

No. He meant since Jan. 20, 2009.

[cj's dad]

No. He meant since Jan. 20, 2009.

Can I ditto that remark ?

Obama = Racist

He is the let's have a beer POTUS

[Tom]

I have no problem with these thoughts or arguments as long as the guns you're only allowed to own and use are similar to the ones which were available at the time the constitution was written.

I know the writers never envisioned the types of weapons which are currently available and accessible today.

That is not how the amendment reads.
They provided a way to change the constitution and that is the only way is should be done. If anyone thinks we should only be allowed anything less needs to get off their ass and start the legal process.

And please do not use the work "allow." The government has no power to "allow" us to do anything. The constitution is only to ensure right we already have and to state what WE will allow the government to do.

Stop looking at government as a ruling body - it is not and never had been. WE, the people......screw the friggin' government and the horse it rode in on. We will always have guns, all the government will ever do is give us more reason to use them. Government must fear the people.

[Stillriledup]

How about tossing the father in jail for accessory to murder.

[Clocker]

How about tossing the father in jail for accessory to murder.

How about some facts and a trial first? There are at least three entirely different stories floating around about where the kid got the gun.

[Stillriledup]

How about some facts and a trial first? There are at least three entirely different stories floating around about where the kid got the gun.

I say indict him for a crime.

But maybe that's just me

[Clocker]

I say indict him for a crime.

But maybe that's just me

What crime? His parents claim that they gave the kid some money for his birthday, and that he said he was going to buy a gun with it.

This whole thing is hear-say right now. There are no facts.

[Dahoss2002]

Just wish some of the people at the church were armed. https://youtu.be/NXhfJ4LNgIs

[Robert Fischer]

I blame the liberals and the conservatives, for turning this into a gun issue.

[fast4522]

Can someone explain? Why is it, the shooters in the majority of mass killings are pissant size guys?

You take their guns away from them, not only could they not kill anyone, they couldn't defend themselves. They couldn't slap, much less fight, their own way out of a wet paper bag. What a punk, this one is.

Prayers for the people he murdered.

A complex question that few can adequately respond to, I am sure to draw fire with my comments. In a different thread "wives/gf's with bad anxiety" I linked to music and suggested understanding. Try to understand if there was PMS firearms we would not see lady's all over the news with hair triggers, the quantity of females with LTC's in this country has never been higher. Moving on to try to answer the question, I do not think pissant size guys are the fat rabbit. There are far more sociopaths who are more intelligent who do not intend on getting caught, this is the Andy Warhol 15 minutes of fame variety. There lays the connection to the "pissant". But the real connection is is to the liberal inside the pissant, I have made this assertion before.

[Robert Goren]

I blame the liberals and the conservatives, for turning this into a gun issue. It is a gun issue only if you buy into the argument that Roof is so crazy that he will be found "not guilty by reason of insanity". Then issue is how did such a lunatic get a gun and how do we prevent other lunatics from getting their hands on a gun without violating the current interpretation of the second amendment. I am not buying the insanity argument for even one second. Roof is no more insane than Dzhokhar Tsarnaev(the Boston Marathon Bomber). He is a man with a cause and was willing to resort to mass murder to advance his cause.

[JustRalph]

I blame the liberals and the conservatives, for turning this into a gun issue.

Exactly right. It's not a gun issue.

I don't see conservatives making it a gun issue unless you count trying to disrupt the lefts machine.

Either way, it's an issue where a lost and useless person was ignored in the same exact manner as Adam Lanza et al. And people died.

[Robert Fischer]

Either way, it's an issue where a lost and useless person was ignored in the same exact manner as Adam Lanza et al. And people died.

My best guess is that this is pretty close to the truth.

[Clocker]

Bill Maher says Fox News and Drudge made the shooter twisted and racist.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/19/bill-maher-blames-right-wing-media-for-charleston-they-present-a-really-twisted-view.html

[Tom]

Bill Maher says Fox News and Drudge made the shooter twisted and racist.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/19/bill-maher-blames-right-wing-media-for-charleston-they-present-a-really-twisted-view.html

Bill Maher has the IQ of a turd.
If anything, the destruction of morality by the left is the bottom line here.
Or maybe he just snapped seeing some many senseless riots and burning and looting this past year, and race baiters like Obama and Sharpton spewing their venom over the airwaves. That make far more sense than stinky. Maybe some chickens have come home to roost.

[JustRalph]

The new pics and website findings show he was a just another run of the mill White Supremacist. I find that easier to understand than what we have been going through the last few days. They are out there. They are in Europe too. In fact the Internet has rekindled them and others due to the fact that it's easy to communicate. Not much different than radicalized Muslims and that ilk.

This one just decided to push it past the standard level of hate. Whether he was bold and acted due to being drugged up, young and stupid, whatever. He was obviously ignored. Another young guy with no life, no support, something missing.

[Marshall Bennett]

Bill Maher says Fox News and Drudge made the shooter twisted and racist.

Bill Maher, like Rosie O'Donnell and a host of other left-wing communist shitheads, get their audiences by making absurd comical remarks to degrade their country. They also claimed Bush and the government was behind 911. They probably don't believe, or would try and get you to disbelieve, that the moon landings ever occurred either.
They are lunatics that hate their country and should be tossed out of any serious discussion of any kind.

[Tom]

Rosie....remember when she indignantly proclaimed that steel would not melt?

She must have been thinking of her cellulite. :D

[FantasticDan]

If anything, the destruction of morality by the left is the bottom line here. Or maybe he just snapped seeing some many senseless riots and burning and looting this past year, and race baiters like Obama and Sharpton spewing their venom over the airwaves. That make far more sense than stinky. Maybe some chickens have come home to roost.As I said in a post a couple days, these are some of the same rationalizations racists and segregationists used to defend the racial violence of the '60s.

But you got the chickens coming home to roost part right.. :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

So you think the Turd is right here, Dan?
No one is rationalizing anything here. I offer a counter point the Turd.
One that is much more likely. People in the bully pulpit need to have a brain when they open their mouths. Obama has never shown anything resembling professional behavior.

Glad to see you agree with me that Obama is a racist, though.

[lamboguy]

the worst part of this rotten episode is that the people that were killed all had big hearts and were sincerely nice people, the kind that this world should admire and miss and people that we all could have learned from.

their whole lives involved following the teachings of the bible, praying and raising strong family.

this was one+++++++ terrible loss.

in my next life i would love to be just like these people were.

[Tom]

They were better people than me.
They are asking for God to have mercy on him.

I say GD him.
Kill this POS in a painfully, slow way.

[Clocker]

Well, that explains a lot.

Here is Daddy is all his glory, nipple rings and all. And allegedly a wife beater.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3131858/Charleston-killer-Dylann-Roof-grew-fractured-home-violent-father-beat-stepmother-hired-private-detective-follow-split-claims-court-papers.html


http://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2015/06/29C9ECA000000578-3131858-FIRST_PICTURE_Franklin_Bennett_Roof_52_father_of_D ylann_Roof_is_-m-56_1434741442466.jpg

[JustRalph]

speaks volumes

[Clocker]

speaks volumes

But that can't be a factor. It has to be Fox News or the Confederate flag or guns that made him do it. :rolleyes:

[horses4courses]

The trial for this kid is going to be a complete circus.
It's sad that he may actually have supporters through all of this.

The only way he escapes the death penalty is via
a predominantly white jury who buy an insanity defense.

It's doubtful, though, that there are strong grounds for pleading insanity.
His thought process leading up to, and following, the murders
appears to be clear and calculated. At least, at this early stage.

Roof seems to be a product of the hatred that the racist culture breeds.
Whether the majority of his exposure to this was through
friends and family, or surfing the internet, I don't know.
Whichever way it came about, it's pretty damned sad.

[Clocker]

It's doubtful, though, that there are strong grounds for pleading insanity.
His thought process leading up to, and following, the murders
appears to be clear and calculated.

Thank you, doctor, for your professional opinion. Will you be testifying as an expert witness at the trial? :D

[tucker6]

The trial for this kid is going to be a complete circus.
It's sad that he may actually have supporters through all of this.

The only way he escapes the death penalty is via
a predominantly white jury who buy an insanity defense.

It's doubtful, though, that there are strong grounds for pleading insanity.
His thought process leading up to, and following, the murders
appears to be clear and calculated. At least, at this early stage.

Roof seems to be a product of the hatred that the racist culture breeds.
Whether the majority of his exposure to this was through
friends and family, or surfing the internet, I don't know.
Whichever way it came about, it's pretty damned sad.
You are in full tilt mode. :faint:

[cj's dad]

Why is it that the only discussions EVER are when it pertains to a white person? This guy is clearly a racist and mentally deranged. What about the blacks that participate in the "knockout punch" of women, whites, Jews (Brooklyn), etc... I have yet to see an assailant who was not black; not once. I have yet to see a black victim. So while these are definitely race based crimes and are clearly racist by nature, no mention is made of the race of the perpetrator/victim by the mainstream media.

This is not to mean that Roof should not be executed for what is clearly a race based hate crime. I hope he dies a miserable death, whether by electrocution or in jail of old age.

The point is racism is not exclusive to whites.

[TJDave]

Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag near the state Capitol...

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/245714-south-carolina-governor-expected-to-call-for-removal-of

[Tom]

Nice to see the gov is right on top of things.
Like that flag had anything at all to do with this.
Typical liberal - rather feel good than actually accomplish anything.

[Robert Goren]

Nice to see the gov is right on top of things.
Like that flag had anything at all to do with this.
Typical liberal - rather feel good than actually accomplish anything.
Roof was waving on his web site. I think I can safely say he was not doing it to show his "southern pride". Although the more I hear southerners talk about the more it sounds like out and out racism to me.

[Tom]

Well now, you should move if you are offended.
Oh, wait, you don't live there, do you.
So it is really none of your business, is it?

Weren't you talking about state's right yesterday?

[Marshall Bennett]

Anything and everything that is offensive to blacks should be removed. Anything and everything offensive to all other races including whites should be removed. It's all relative, and it's all painfully stupid!!
Keep up the good work pissing off more and more white people by trying to control what everyone looks at and believes in.
Yeah, racism is alive and well. Who's fault do you believe it is?

[reckless]

Gov. Haley to call for removal of Confederate flag near the state Capitol...

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/245714-south-carolina-governor-expected-to-call-for-removal-of

WTG Nikki Haley.

She is about to take a phony Democrat Party left wing issue off the table!

Those GOP candidates running for president should pay homage to this smart, brave and practical woman every chance they get.

What has happened these past few days coming out of South Carolina should tell each and every voter in this country who the real leaders are and who the real haters and losers are.

We have Republican Gov. Nikki Haley, a white woman, and Republican Sen. Tim Scott, a black man, telling the world all about right and wrong, compassion and civility amidst a horrible tragedy.

On the other side is one US President Barry Obama, who uses the vulgar, horrible and racist N-word liberally in discussing the same tragedy.

The N-word is very much more a symbol of racism and hatred than the Confederate flag is, so once again Barry Obama shows his true 'color'.

[Tom]

Obama used the N word????

[TJDave]

Lindsey Graham to join in.

I guess someone did a poll. :rolleyes:

[Robert Goren]

WTG Nikki Haley.

She is about to take a phony Democrat Party left wing issue off the table!

Those GOP candidates running for president should pay homage to this smart, brave and practical woman every chance they get.

What has happened these past few days coming out of South Carolina should tell each and every voter in this country who the real leaders are and who the real haters and losers are.

We have Republican Gov. Nikki Haley, a white woman, and Republican Sen. Tim Scott, a black man, telling the world all about right and wrong, compassion and civility amidst a horrible tragedy.

On the other side is one US President Barry Obama, who uses the vulgar, horrible and racist N-word liberally in discussing the same tragedy.

The N-word is very much more a symbol of racism and hatred than the Confederate flag is, so once again Barry Obama shows his true 'color'.You are wrong! There is not two cent worth of difference between the Confederate flag and the "N" word if you want express a racist belief.
If Nikki Haley had half a clue, She would done what she did today last week. I think the only reason she has sudden got so brave is that several businesses explained the facts of life to her. South Carolina has a lot of work to do if it wants to get rid of its racist image. Right now any company that a number of valuable Black employees is not going to move there.

[reckless]

Obama used the N word????

Yes, the Creep in Chief, did use the N-word.

Here's the link. You may have noticed but this link is not just one of the far right wing web sites that just hates Obama and makes things up.

Some of the left wingers here have ignored it so far, but that doesn't surprise me.


http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/obama-n-word-marc-maron-interview-119272.html

[reckless]

You are wrong! There is not two cent worth of difference between the Confederate flag and the "N" word if you want express a racist belief.

If Nikki Haley had half a clue, She would done what she did today last week. I think the only reason she has sudden got so brave is that several businesses explained the facts of life to her. South Carolina has a lot of work to do if it wants to get rid of its racist image. Right now any company that a number of valuable Black employees is not going to move there.

Nice going Robert, protecting the left wing talking-points-default position.

As I have repeatedly reminded everyone on PA over the years, it is the Democrat Party that is the bastion of hatred and racism.

What the wonderful Nikki Haley did in calling for the Confederate Flag to be taken down was an act of courage, common sense and common decency. She also took away the phony talking points of the Democrats. And she did it out of respect and understanding for Black Americans in South Carolina and throughout the USA. She did not act by taking phone calls from businesses around the country. :lol:

This is unlike the POS you call President Obama who continues to prove to all Americans how hateful, stupid and class-less he is. To use the N-word is a disgrace to all Americans and the office of the Presidency of the USA.

One last reminder, below is a post I posted at another thread here. The last line that I highlighted deserves a comment. The leading contender for the Democrats in 2016, Hillary Rodham Clinton, said in both 2008 and throughout her tenure as Arkansas first lady, that she supports the Confederate Flag flying over the state house buildings. You go girl, Hillary!

Maybe you should pose these concerns of yours to the proper authorities, such as liberal icon and a favorite of the left wing lunatics on this board, Bill Jefferson Clinton, aka BJ. Before you do that, was it you that once objected to me when I called BJ a racist?

Per the website, gateway pundit:

Bill Clinton had a Confederate flag-like issue of his own. Arkansas Code Annotated, Section 1-5-107, provides as follows:

“(a) The Saturday immediately preceding Easter Sunday of each year is designated as ‘Confederate Flag Day’ in this state.

"(b) No person, firm, or corporation shall display an Confederate flag or replica thereof in connection with any advertisement of any commercial enterprise, or in any manner for any purpose except to honor the Confederate States of America. [Emphasis added.]

"(c) Any person, firm, or corporation violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be fined not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000)."

Bill Clinton took no steps during his twelve years as Governor to repeal this law.

[Marshall Bennett]

You are wrong! There is not two cent worth of difference between the Confederate flag and the "N" word if you want express a racist belief.

If that's the case, smart guy, then why have they waited over a hundred years to take it down?
This isn't over. Mississippi's state flag has the Confederate flag embedded on it. I suppose a new flag is in order? I suppose had they been flying a flag with the "N" word written on it would be the same thing.

[Robert Fischer]

Now going back in Dukes of Hazzard reruns and blurring the car.

I don't believe it!

[classhandicapper]

You are wrong! There is not two cent worth of difference between the Confederate flag and the "N" word if you want express a racist belief.


Robert,

This is where you are and all the rest of the liberals are wrong.

For the racist, there is no difference between displaying the Confederate flag and using the "N" word. That flag IS USED by the worst elements of society.

However, for some southerners (who obviously were not slave owners and whose families may not have even immigrated to the US at that time) it means something else.

It's currently about a sense of pride in being a conservative southerner as opposed to a northern liberal.

The way people in blue states feel a sense of pride in what they believe are more enlightened views on religion, abortion, evolution vs creationism, the size of government, states rights, health care, taxes, military, guns, etc.... people from red states feel a sense of pride in their opposing views on those same subjects.

This great divide between blue and red states on a lot of issues prompts some people from the south to use that flag to express southern pride.

I am a southerner.

I believe in God.

I believe God created man.

I am pro life.

I believe the US is the greatest country in the world and we need a strong military to defend it.

I believe in low taxes and small government.

I believe in states rights.

I believe you can never own too many guns.

I'm not sure how you bridge that because people have every right to be offended by a flag that represented a group of states that seceded primarily (but not exclusively) over slavery. Yet other people (who may not be racist) have a right to wave a flag that historically ties them together on a set of values that differentiates them from the north and liberals.

You sort of wish they would just abandon that flag and replace it in some way out of sensitivity. There has to be a better way to express it. This is one of the rare times I think just going along with "political correctness" would be a good idea.

[Tall One]

In 2001, the state of Mississippi put it on the ballot whether or not to remove the Southern Cross from their state flag. It didn't pass, but apparently one of their Repub Senators is trying to get it removed again.

Georgia changed their flag only to accommodate the Summer Olympics back in '96.

But, if what Robert Fischer is posting is correct, for them to blur the image on the General Lee's roof is borderline ridiculous.

[Tall One]

Interesting. Wal Mart will stop selling items related to the battle flag.


Wal Mart (http://www.wafb.com/story/29381593/walmart-to-discontinue-confederate-flag-merchandise)

[JustRalph]

These campaign buttons are going to be collectables

[Tom]

Damn racists, those two hooligans.
Right, Bobby?

[Tom]

Interesting. Wal Mart will stop selling items related to the battle flag.

But they will continue to sell guns. Talk about hypocrites!


http://www.walmart.com/search/?query=rifles&cat_id=4125_546956_1107532_1225336_1225338

[lamboguy]

there really is no good that has come out of this black eye in American history, but it has woke me up to the real meaning of how precious life really is by watching these fine people from the family and community of Charlestown, S.C. come together spiritually and helped one another. i have never seen anything like this in my life.

because of their spirituality these people have not let stress rule their lives. its a great way to live and stay healthy. if this had happened to me i know i would have been a complete wreck.

[Clocker]

there really is no good that has come out of this black eye in American history, but it has woke me up to the real meaning of how precious life really is by watching these fine people from the family and community of Charlestown, S.C. come together spiritually and helped one another. i have never seen anything like this in my life.



If I wanted to take a cheap shot, I might suggest a linkage between this outcome and the fact that Al Sharpton doesn't seem to have showed up down there.

But nah, that would be too easy. :p

[Robert Goren]

If that's the case, smart guy, then why have they waited over a hundred years to take it down?
This isn't over. Mississippi's state flag has the Confederate flag embedded on it. I suppose a new flag is in order? I suppose had they been flying a flag with the "N" word written on it would be the same thing.You can hear a Black person say the "N" word from time to time, But I have never even heard of a Black person flying the Confederate flag. Not once in my 67 years on this earth. The "Southern Pride" that supposedly that flag represents is only a White person thing.

[Robert Goren]

Nice going Robert, protecting the left wing talking-points-default position.

As I have repeatedly reminded everyone on PA over the years, it is the Democrat Party that is the bastion of hatred and racism.

What the wonderful Nikki Haley did in calling for the Confederate Flag to be taken down was an act of courage, common sense and common decency. She also took away the phony talking points of the Democrats. And she did it out of respect and understanding for Black Americans in South Carolina and throughout the USA. She did not act by taking phone calls from businesses around the country. :lol:

This is unlike the POS you call President Obama who continues to prove to all Americans how hateful, stupid and class-less he is. To use the N-word is a disgrace to all Americans and the office of the Presidency of the USA.

One last reminder, below is a post I posted at another thread here. The last line that I highlighted deserves a comment. The leading contender for the Democrats in 2016, Hillary Rodham Clinton, said in both 2008 and throughout her tenure as Arkansas first lady, that she supports the Confederate Flag flying over the state house buildings. You go girl, Hillary! It is being widely reported that business groups such as the Chamber of Commerce had asked Haley to remove the Flag.

[lamboguy]

If I wanted to take a cheap shot, I might suggest a linkage between this outcome and the fact that Al Sharpton doesn't seem to have showed up down there.

But nah, that would be too easy. :pgive me a break, that guys an insult to humanity, the people in South Carolina would throw him out like a Tom Brady inflated football.

[Robert Fischer]

Damn racists, those two hooligans.
Right, Bobby?

I'm strongly in favor of censoring everything that could possibly be offensive.
We ought to give the gov't even more power to decide what we can see, say, or even know. 'Symbols' are long over-do... :rolleyes:

[Tom]

Well, when your president is low-class enough to use the N word, I guess anything goes.

Not enough lipstick to put on that pig.

[classhandicapper]

These campaign buttons are going to be collectables


Assuming that Clinton/Gore button is legit, it made my case better than anything I've said on the subject. There is a 0% chance Clinton/Gore were expressing a racist view by using the Confederate flag on a campaign button. They were expressing the fact that they are both proud southerners.

[Robert Goren]

Well, when your president is low-class enough to use the N word, I guess anything goes.

Not enough lipstick to put on that pig.Did you hear Obama speak? Do you have any idea the context he used it in? Just in case you don't, he used the real word instead saying something like the "N word" to describe something that was racist.

[horses4courses]

Well, when your president is low-class enough to use the N word, I guess anything goes.

Not enough lipstick to put on that pig.

Typical response.
Simply no understanding of the context in which the word was used.

Maybe, I have a hard time listening to Fox News and getting
my facts straight about their news anchors.
You might actually try listening to what someone says before commenting.

[TJDave]

There is a 0% chance Clinton/Gore were expressing a racist view by using the Confederate flag on a campaign button.

What percent chance would there be of a black Clinton-Gore supporter wearing that button?

[Tom]

Did you hear Obama speak? Do you have any idea the context he used it in? Just in case you don't, he used the real word instead saying something like the "N word" to describe something that was racist.

There is no acceptable context for the POTUS to use that word.

[Robert Goren]

There is no acceptable context for the POTUS to use that word.Just as there is no acceptable context to ever fly the Stars and Bars?

[Clocker]

Just as there is no acceptable context to ever fly the Stars and Bars?

The Governor of SC would disagree with you. She said today that it is time to move the display of the flag from the state house grounds to an appropriate location. Sounds like a rational compromise to me.

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sc-gov-nikki-haley-time-move-confederate-flag

[Tom]

Just as there is no acceptable context to ever fly the Stars and Bars?

That is not by any stretch the same thing.

[Tom]

The Governor of SC would disagree with you. She said today that it is time to move the display of the flag from the state house grounds to an appropriate location. Sounds like a rational compromise to me.

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sc-gov-nikki-haley-time-move-confederate-flag

As soon as that happens, all mass killings will cease, right?

[Rookies]

As soon as that happens, all mass killings will cease, right?

No.

400 MILLION less guns would do that!

[Clocker]

As soon as that happens, all mass killings will cease, right?

As soon as that happens, the left will have to come up with some other irrational, irrelevant scapegoat to blame it on.

Maybe they can find a causal relation between global warming and mass murder.

[dartman51]

No.

400 MILLION less guns would do that!


Just like banning drugs cleaned up our streets, right? :rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

No.

400 MILLION less guns would do that!

Well, where do we start? Because I will be last.......

[Clocker]

Just like banning drugs cleaned up our streets, right? :rolleyes:

But it did work well for Prohibition, right?

[Marshall Bennett]

Did you hear Obama speak? Do you have any idea the context he used it in? Just in case you don't, he used the real word instead saying something like the "N word" to describe something that was racist.
Personally I have no problem with it, however, had Bush used it in any context his career and presidency would blown up in his face.
Flags and words aren't the problem with race relations. It's simply a tool to get leverage by blacks. The words and flags have been around forever. Get over it.

[classhandicapper]

What percent chance would there be of a black Clinton-Gore supporter wearing that button?


I couldn't tell you, but probably minimal.

That's not my point though. I haven't been arguing that some people don't or shouldn't take offense to it. They obviously do and have good reason to or we wouldn't be having this discussion. I've simply been arguing that displaying the Confederate flag is not always a racist action as the left would have you believe.

[Tom]

Some people see racism everywhere they look.
To not do so would force them into a reality they are not prepared to live in; one without built in excuses.

Instead of rallying around removing a flag, why not do something productive and rally outside a Wal Mart that dropped the flags but still sells guns? Lack of conviction on the left is rampant.

[Clocker]

Instead of rallying around removing a flag, why not do something productive and rally outside a Wal Mart that dropped the flags but still sells guns? Lack of conviction on the left is rampant.

Seems to me WalMart was selling rebel flags and guns all the years that Hillary was on the Board of Directors. :eek:

[TJDave]

That's not my point though. I haven't been arguing that some people don't or shouldn't take offense to it. They obviously do and have good reason to or we wouldn't be having this discussion. I've simply been arguing that displaying the Confederate flag is not always a racist action as the left would have you believe.

This isn't a left vs. right issue.

ELKabong says it better.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1837981&postcount=31

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1838033&postcount=33

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1838083&postcount=36

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1838312&postcount=56

[FocusWiz]

Honestly, there were black southerners who supported the confederacy and the southern cross, but they were few.

http://www.confederateamericanpride.com/blackconfederates.html

The flag used to stand for more than racism, but has, as many symbols have, changed its meaning over time.

Few alive today can understand the civilization of the South that was threatened by the industrialized North. For all intents and purposes, they have lost the war for their lifestyle and civilization despite their attempts to keep it alive.

Racism is alive and well in America. Eliminating a flag will not change that, but since the flag has been adopted as a symbol of hate, it no longer stands for the Old South as it once did and it is time for this once great symbol to be relegated to museum pieces.

[Tom]

Racism is alive and well in America. Eliminating a flag will not change that, but since the flag has been adopted as a symbol of hate, it no longer stands for the Old South as it once did and it is time for this once great symbol to be relegated to museum pieces.

I don't think it stands for anything different to the people who line in the South than it ever has. Outsiders who seek to prevent unity and propagate division may be using it to symbolize their warped lives.

But is easier to attack a dormant flag than it is to face reality and actually do something.

[FocusWiz]

Yes, just as not saying certain words doesn't change biases, neither will taking down the flag.

Both just create certain politically correct environments.

Years ago, I attended the diversity training classes required by a major New York City bank. My comment on the course review was that it appeared that the goal of the course was not to change perspectives or improve acceptance of diverse population elements, but to teach managers how to hide their bigotry better.

[PaceAdvantage]

These campaign buttons are going to be collectablesI'd be pretty shocked if that was an officially sanctioned piece of campaign propaganda. I'd be willing to bet that some southern supporters of Clinton invented that button on their own and the national campaign had nothing to do with it...

[Tom]

If I remember correctly, all the official Clinton buttons had boobs on them somewhere.

[JustRalph]

I'd be pretty shocked if that was an officially sanctioned piece of campaign propaganda. I'd be willing to bet that some southern supporters of Clinton invented that button on their own and the national campaign had nothing to do with it...

How about the video of Bill Clinton embracing Orval Faubus on stage at his first inauguration ?

You might see that in a campaign ad.

[TJDave]

How about the video of Bill Clinton embracing Orval Faubus on stage at his first inauguration ?

Bill embraced everyone.

[classhandicapper]

This isn't a left vs. right issue.



Racism is not a left vs right issue.

The meanings of the flag (plural) to different people is a left vs. right issue.

[TJDave]

Racism is not a left vs right issue.

The meanings of the flag (plural) to different people is a left vs. right issue.

No, it's not. I've seen support for removal from both sides. I'm also confident that R.E. Lee would be a supporter.

[FocusWiz]

Racism is not a left vs right issue.

The meanings of the flag (plural) to different people is a left vs. right issue.While I generally agree with you, I think it is more a north vs south issue. The North has never wanted that flag flown again after the war but it once meant something near and dear to the nationalistic South (and still does to "true" southerners).

Idiots have adopted it as a symbol of white supremacy and I would not equate them with the political right nor the left.

[TJDave]

Idiots have adopted it as a symbol of white supremacy and I would not equate them with the political right nor the left.

Why not?

Which way do you think they vote?

[Clocker]

If I remember correctly, all the official Clinton buttons had boobs on them somewhere.

You mean Bill and Al?

[FocusWiz]

No, it's not. I've seen support for removal from both sides. I'm also confident that R.E. Lee would be a supporter.I agree and I think both Bill Clinton and Mike Huckabee understand what that flag represents and politically they are not on the same side.

We seem to play a lot of games.

We invent words that you cannot say and then try to see who says them, we create symbols and gestures that you should not use, to see who uses them. We change the rules periodically to test to see if the rest of us are paying attention to the new rules.

Right now, as a symbol of support for the fallen victims, the country is denouncing the symbol the perpetrator embraced as a symbol of racism. Both sides (left and right) are trying to figure out the new rules.

[FocusWiz]

Why not?

Which way do you think they vote?When George Wallace was around, they voted for him. I doubt they would vote for Mitt Romney. Who do you think they would vote for and do you think that just because a bunch of idiots support a candidate that it means that everyone on that side of the political spectrum agrees with the idiots.

Seriously, if you were to rate every "group" solely by the worst members associated with that group, would there be any group that is any good?

[TJDave]

Seriously, if you were to rate every "group" solely by the worst members associated with that group, would there be any group that is any good?

Excellent point, however I don't see evidence that these groups make any effort to condemn these outliers...right or left. They'll pander and take votes from whomever, wherever.

[FocusWiz]

I don't see evidence that these groups make any effort to condemn these outliers...right or left. They'll pander and take votes from whomever, wherever.I wish I could disagree with you, even a little bit.

[classhandicapper]

No, it's not. I've seen support for removal from both sides. I'm also confident that R.E. Lee would be a supporter.

You are not paying attention to what I am saying.

The flag means different things to different people, but it has been defined as a symbol of hate and racism (primarily by northern liberals), in part because a small percentage of people that actually are still hateful racists have adopted it to represent their cause.

That does not mean that all people that display the flag are hateful racists. They are often displaying it for benign reasons. The campaign button of Clinton and Gore demonstrates that.

That also does not mean that all people that identify more with the politics of the south on issues like the size of government, religious values, guns, states rights etc... think it's OK for the flag to be displayed.

I was born and raised in NY, but I agree with the conservative south on way more things than the liberal north. You can trust that I don't have an ounce of hate in me. I would not display the Confederate flag because I am sensitive enough to understand that some people would be offended and hurt by it. However, I also recognize that some of the people that do display it are not evil hate mongers the way the left tries to portray them. And that last sentence has been my point.

[Robert Goren]

When George Wallace was around, they voted for him. I doubt they would vote for Mitt Romney. Who do you think they would vote for and do you think that just because a bunch of idiots support a candidate that it means that everyone on that side of the political spectrum agrees with the idiots.

Seriously, if you were to rate every "group" solely by the worst members associated with that group, would there be any group that is any good? Not all political groups act that way, C-PAC gave the racist Council for Conservative Citizens the boot over 15 years ago. Unfortunately several of the current crop of GOP presidential hopefuls have not done the same and have taken money from the CCC.

[Robert Goren]

You are not paying attention to what I am saying.

The flag means different things to different people, but it has been defined as a symbol of hate and racism (primarily by northern liberals), in part because a small percentage of people that actually are still hateful racists have adopted it to represent their cause.

That does not mean that all people that display the flag are hateful racists. They are often displaying it for benign reasons. The campaign button of Clinton and Gore demonstrates that.

That also does not mean that all people that identify more with the politics of the south on issues like the size of government, religious values, guns, states rights etc... think it's OK for the flag to be displayed.

I was born and raised in NY, but I agree with the conservative south on way more things than the liberal north. You can trust that I don't have an ounce of hate in me. I would not display the Confederate flag because I am sensitive enough to understand that some people would be offended and hurt by it. However, I also recognize that some of the people that do display it are not evil hate mongers the way the left tries to portray them. And that last sentence has been my point. I wish somebody would explain by what perverted logic how that flag could represent a anything good. Because when it was in use, it was the flag of an army who was to a man fighting to preserve slavery. I think it is safe to there was not an Abolitionist who fought under it. Today it supposed today represents "Southern Pride". How can you be proud of slave owners? Or people fighting to keep the slave owners in business? It is like the people who served in the German army during WWII claiming they were fighting for Germany and not Hitler and the NAZIs. I am not buying it.

[Clocker]

Because when it was in use, it was the flag of an army who was to a man fighting to preserve slavery.

If you think the grunts on the ground in the Army of Northern Virginia were fighting for slavery, you need some remedial history lessons. They considered themselves to be citizens of Virginia first, and of the USA second. They were fighting against what they saw as an invasion of their homeland by an enemy force.

[Tall One]

In the capital rotunda building over in Frankfort stands a statue of Kentucky native, and POTCSA, Jefferson Davis. Next week, a petition will be circulated by a former state treasurer to have it removed.

His idea for the replacement? Mohammed Ali.


Edit--Clocker is 100% correct. In fact, if Virginia hadn't went with the South, Lee would've commanded for the North.

[dartman51]

It's really sad to see the total ignorance of our nation's history displayed, not only here, but by a lot of our elected officials. :(

[Clocker]

In fact, if Virginia hadn't went with the South, Lee would've commanded for the North.

Yep. When war appeared inevitable, Lincoln promoted Lee, former Superintendent of West Point, to Major General and offered him command of the Union army. When Virginia seceded, Lee resigned his commission and returned home.

[Tall One]

It's really sad to see the total ignorance of our nation's history displayed, not only here, but by a lot of our elected officials. :(


Sad commentary indeed, Dart. News reported earlier that McConnell and Bevin have already voiced their approvals( :rolleyes: ). I guess there'll be a petition soon to take down the statue of General John Hunt Morgan, and his mare Black Bess, from in front of the old court house here in Lexington.

Fun fact of sorts: Lincoln stands beside Davis in the rotunda.

[Clocker]

Sad commentary indeed, Dart. News reported earlier that McConnell and Bevin have already voiced their approvals( :rolleyes: ). I guess there'll be a petition soon to take down the statue of General John Hunt Morgan, and his mare Black Bess, from in front of the old court house here in Lexington.

Fun fact of sorts: Lincoln stands beside Davis in the rotunda.

It is so convenient to be able to rewrite history when the past becomes politically incorrect. It sounds like Jeff Davis and friends are soon to become non-persons.

Shades of "1984" and the old Soviet Union.

[Steve 'StatMan']

If I remember correctly, all the official Clinton buttons had boobs on them somewhere.

They were underneath them!

[Marshall Bennett]

I wish somebody would explain by what perverted logic how that flag could represent a anything good.
For most, it's become a symbol of southern pride, totally disconnected from slavery and the civil war. The deep south, much like Cajun country, likes to consider itself in many ways independent of the rest of this screwed up world we live in. There will always be extremist that go further, but they are a minority and shouldn't be showcased as the rule as is being done now.

[reckless]

. . .

Fun fact of sorts: Lincoln stands beside Davis in the rotunda.

And both men were born in Kentucky less than 100 miles from one another.

[reckless]

. . . In fact, if Virginia hadn't went with the South, Lee would've commanded for the North.

Yep. When war appeared inevitable, Lincoln promoted Lee, former Superintendent of West Point, to Major General and offered him command of the Union army. When Virginia seceded, Lee resigned his commission and returned home.


If you think the grunts on the ground in the Army of Northern Virginia were fighting for slavery, you need some remedial history lessons. They considered themselves to be citizens of Virginia first, and of the USA second. They were fighting against what they saw as an invasion of their homeland by an enemy force.

Thanks to both of you in reminding us, in part, the historical significance of both the symbolic Confederate Flag and the South's most favored son, General Robert E. Lee.

The citizens of the South indeed looked upon the North as being invaders who were forcing their radical way of life over their genteel traditions. Lee was present at the riot in Harper's Ferry, Va., which was led by abolitionist nut job John Brown from New England in an attack against the US Army.

A couple of thoughts to share: before and following the Civil War, Robert E. Lee was more of an anti-slavery advocate than Abraham Lincoln. Running for the US Senate and later for president, Lincoln never called for the abolition of slavery. But, thankfully, Lincoln eventually realized the moral aspect of the evils of slavery and his Emancipation Proclamation, may well have been the single most important executive order in the history of the USA.

After the Civil War, the federal US government confiscated (stole in less polite terms) Lee's farm and other properties, in addition to taking from him his right to vote.

[Ocala Mike]

For most, it's become a symbol of southern pride, totally disconnected from slavery and the civil war.



Disconnecting it from slavery and the civil war and displaying it as a symbol of southern pride is a leap that's hard for me to believe. I like Lowenbrau beer, but I'm not gonna fly a swastika.

[Tall One]

And both men were born in Kentucky less than 100 miles from one another.


Yessir. Kentucky's involvement in the war was very "unique" to say the least. Both men knew the importance of which side Kentucky landed, but nobody moreso than Lincoln.

[classhandicapper]

I wish somebody would explain by what perverted logic how that flag could represent a anything good. Because when it was in use, it was the flag of an army who was to a man fighting to preserve slavery. I think it is safe to there was not an Abolitionist who fought under it. Today it supposed today represents "Southern Pride". How can you be proud of slave owners? Or people fighting to keep the slave owners in business? It is like the people who served in the German army during WWII claiming they were fighting for Germany and not Hitler and the NAZIs. I am not buying it.

What you are really arguing is that you do not understand why someone would choose that flag as their symbol. That's a reasonable question.

But what it actually does represent to some people is NOT all the things YOU PERSONALLY associate it with. That's the REALITY.

[classhandicapper]

If you think the grunts on the ground in the Army of Northern Virginia were fighting for slavery, you need some remedial history lessons. They considered themselves to be citizens of Virginia first, and of the USA second. They were fighting against what they saw as an invasion of their homeland by an enemy force.

Texas seceded to some extent because the people felt they weren't getting enough support from Washington against Indians and Mexicans and they were better off going at it alone.

[Robert Goren]

What you are really arguing is that you do not understand why someone would choose that flag as their symbol. That's a reasonable question.

But what it actually does represent to some people is NOT all the things YOU PERSONALLY associate it with. That's the REALITY.I know what they claim it means to them. What I need is an explanation is how they made the leap from it was originally (a symbol for an army that was trying to preserve slavery) to what they claim it means to them today. I just don't see how anyone can get there. But I am willing to listen, but just don't try say it represents "southern pride" (actually "southern white pride") without explaining why and why it doesn't represent racism.

[Tom]

Disconnecting it from slavery and the civil war and displaying it as a symbol of southern pride is a leap that's hard for me to believe. I like Lowenbrau beer, but I'm not gonna fly a swastika.

Your belief is not required.
That is why we call it freedom of speech (expression)

But everyone is doing a stellar job of totally ignoring the real problems and doing a lot of warm and fuzzy stuff. Wal Mart will stoop selling the flag but still sell guns. That is all I need to hear to know which side I am on.

[Robert Goren]

Thanks to both of you in reminding us, in part, the historical significance of both the symbolic Confederate Flag and the South's most favored son, General Robert E. Lee.

The citizens of the South indeed looked upon the North as being invaders who were forcing their radical way of life over their genteel traditions. Lee was present at the riot in Harper's Ferry, Va., which was led by abolitionist nut job John Brown from New England in an attack against the US Army.

A couple of thoughts to share: before and following the Civil War, Robert E. Lee was more of an anti-slavery advocate than Abraham Lincoln. Running for the US Senate and later for president, Lincoln never called for the abolition of slavery. But, thankfully, Lincoln eventually realized the moral aspect of the evils of slavery and his Emancipation Proclamation, may well have been the single most important executive order in the history of the USA.

After the Civil War, the federal US government confiscated (stole in less polite terms) Lee's farm and other properties, in addition to taking from him his right to vote. The southern states did not succeed from the union because they thought Lincoln was going to keep slavery. They succeed because they saw what they thought was the "hand writing on the wall". That hand writing they thought they saw said " Lincoln is going to abolish slavery". To state otherwise is just plain not true.

[PaceAdvantage]

I wish somebody would explain by what perverted logic how that flag could represent a anything good. Because when it was in use, it was the flag of an army who was to a man fighting to preserve slavery. I think it is safe to there was not an Abolitionist who fought under it. Today it supposed today represents "Southern Pride". How can you be proud of slave owners? Or people fighting to keep the slave owners in business? It is like the people who served in the German army during WWII claiming they were fighting for Germany and not Hitler and the NAZIs. I am not buying it.Of course you're not buying it...you're a black and white kind of guy, immune to shades of grey...

[PaceAdvantage]

Disconnecting it from slavery and the civil war and displaying it as a symbol of southern pride is a leap that's hard for me to believe. I like Lowenbrau beer, but I'm not gonna fly a swastika.Keep equating the Nazis to the Confederates...I'm about to vomit...maybe you can push me over the edge.

[Mystic]

Keep equating the Nazis to the Confederates...I'm about to vomit...maybe you can push me over the edge.
I don't think that's what he was doing. Merely using it as an example. I don't take it the way you are.

[PaceAdvantage]

Ten other states would eventually follow South Carolina in secession, forming the Confederate States of America. However, of the three flags the Confederacy would go on to adopt, none are the Confederate flag that is traditionally recognized today. The "Stars and Bars" flag, currently the subject of controversy, was actually the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.I don't really give a rats ass about the Confederate flag, as it's known today. I was never a southerner...I have no "southern pride" whatever that is...

I think people will never stop finding windmills to tilt at...invented controversies...things that constantly offend someone/EVERYONE...whatever...just another in a long line of manufactured crises...

Let's just kill this flag and get the inevitable over with and move onto the next thing that offends...

[Robert Fischer]

Nazis and confederates have pretty much nothing in common in this context, other than as a footnote of each having mostly-ruined a symbol, for modern society.

[Rookies]

Keep equating the Nazis to the Confederates...I'm about to vomit...maybe you can push me over the edge.

I'm not about to, Mike. I would say though, that EVERY human society that advances the concept, mission and purpose of themselves as being to posit one race superior to others and to enforce that belief with subjugation, enslavement, imprisonment, murder and mayhem is certainly on the continuum.

To be fair, this includes virtually all prior 'civilized 'societies including the ancient Romans and Greeks and certainly every one of the imperialists: England, France, Spain and Germany, leading up to the atrocities of the 20th Century. It then becomes a question of at what point is enough and time to move forward, rather than keeping the old icons of more barbaric times?

Full disclosure. Canada had slavery in the 1800s, as well, due to its founding Brit & French parents. In the 1930s, down on the beautiful Beach Boardwalk, I stroll daily, there were signs posted: " No Jews or dogs allowed." Up to the mid 70s, there were clauses in my own standard home purchase of sale agreement, where one needed "Approval by the Residents' Association." :rolleyes: Those have all been struck down, disposed of and relegated to the dustbin of historical disgrace.

It is amusing to see the non sequitur and red & white herring of Robert E. Lee thrown into the mix here. Nobody has ever had an issue with Lee, who graduated from West Point with flying colours and was a superb tactician and military standard of excellence with the South. If he was coupled with any Civil War victor in standing, it was always Grant. And to use the above argument, if he was linked up with American military foes, it would be the superb Erwin Rommel, not some barbaric General heading the Waffen SS!

Certainly, if you examine the historical pictures of the Klan, U.S. Neo Nazis, a George Wallace rally in the 60s, nobody is holding up pix of Lee on his noble steed; but there are always, always, multiple shots of Confederate Flags. There is absolutely no accident in that symbolism. It is being used as its founders desired it to be- the superiority of a white race society.

Tom is correct about the real issue, in any case- the elimination of the gun. The Flag is simply a sidebar that should have been relegated to historical museums, generations ago.

[PaceAdvantage]

I say we get rid of ALL flags...flags do nothing but segregate the peoples of the world...making some feel superior to others...there are plenty of people in the world (and in the US) that are offended by the stars and stripes and what it represents.

Who are we to continue to offend these people. I think I'll start a petition to ban the American Flag from all public places.

Who's with me?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not about to, Mike. I would say though, that EVERY human society that advances the concept, mission and purpose of themselves as being to posit one race superior to others and to enforce that belief with subjugation, enslavement, imprisonment, murder and mayhem is certainly on the continuum.

To be fair, this includes virtually all prior 'civilized 'societies including the ancient Romans and Greeks and certainly every one of the imperialists: England, France, Spain and Germany, leading up to the atrocities of the 20th Century. It then becomes a question of at what point is enough and time to move forward, rather than keeping the old icons of more barbaric times?

Full disclosure. Canada had slavery in the 1800s, as well, due to its founding Brit & French parents. In the 1930s, down on the beautiful Beach Boardwalk, I stroll daily, there were signs posted: " No Jews or dogs allowed." Up to the mid 70s, there were clauses in my own standard home purchase of sale agreement, where one needed "Approval by the Residents' Association." :rolleyes: Those have all been struck down, disposed of and relegated to the dustbin of historical disgrace.

It is amusing to see the non sequitur and red & white herring of Robert E. Lee thrown into the mix here. Nobody has ever had an issue with Lee, who graduated from West Point with flying colours and was a superb tactician and military standard of excellence with the South. If he was coupled with any Civil War victor in standing, it was always Grant. And to use the above argument, if he was linked up with American military foes, it would be the superb Erwin Rommel, not some barbaric General heading the Waffen SS!

Certainly, if you examine the historical pictures of the Klan, U.S. Neo Nazis, a George Wallace rally in the 60s, nobody is holding up pix of Lee on his noble steed; but there are always, always, multiple shots of Confederate Flags. There is absolutely no accident in that symbolism. It is being used as its founders desired it to be- the superiority of a white race society.

Tom is correct about the real issue, in any case- the elimination of the gun. The Flag is simply a sidebar that should have been relegated to historical museums, generations ago.Again, that flag was the battle flag of Robert E. Lee's army, not a flag adopted by any of the states of the confederacy. So, by your own words "Lee on his noble steed" is held up in some sort of regard, but the flag he used is to be flushed down the toilet because it has been perverted by the Klan and neo-nazis?

Like I said, I don't really care if it stays or goes...no sweat off my back. I just think it's kind of interesting how nobody really gave a crap until some nutjob goes and shoots up a church. And since this is primarily a liberal, left-wing crusade, it's also interesting how disrespectful the liberal, left-leaners are to the kind of people who were killed in that massacre...devout Christians...

[Clocker]

Let's just kill this flag and get the inevitable over with and move onto the next thing that offends...

That would be the statue of Jeff Davis in the Kentucky state house. I wonder how many mass murders that has inspired. Mitch McConnell is calling for its removal.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/mitch-mcconnell-to-kentucky-capitol-lose-the-jefferson-davis-statue-20150623

I have a shelf full of history books I better hide before the Thought Police show up at the door to replace them with sanitized, politically correct versions.

[Clocker]

It is amusing to see the non sequitur and red & white herring of Robert E. Lee thrown into the mix here. Nobody has ever had an issue with Lee, who graduated from West Point with flying colours and was a superb tactician and military standard of excellence with the South.

The issue was raised by those on the left claiming that the sole motivation of every participant fighting for the South was the preservation of slavery, and that therefore the only motivation of anyone today displaying the Confederate flag is racism.

[Tom]

I say we get rid of ALL flags...flags do nothing but segregate the peoples of the world...making some feel superior to others...there are plenty of people in the world (and in the US) that are offended by the stars and stripes and what it represents.

Who are we to continue to offend these people. I think I'll start a petition to ban the American Flag from all public places.

Who's with me?

I find that some are offended by Old Glory to be comforting.
You might as try to pull the S of off Superman.

[Rookies]

Again, that flag was the battle flag of Robert E. Lee's army, not a flag adopted by any of the states of the confederacy. So, by your own words "Lee on his noble steed" is held up in some sort of regard, but the flag he used is to be flushed down the toilet because it has been perverted by the Klan and neo-nazis?

Like I said, I don't really care if it stays or goes...no sweat off my back. I just think it's kind of interesting how nobody really gave a crap until some nutjob goes and shoots up a church. And since this is primarily a liberal, left-wing crusade, it's also interesting how disrespectful the liberal, left-leaners are to the kind of people who were killed in that massacre...devout Christians...

The flag was changed because the South's military Generals (including Lee, no doubt) had concerns that the larger, white section (denoting the superiority of the White Race by its maker), could be mistaken in battle for 'Surrender/ Truce'. So, they simply eliminated that section, but NOBODY said: " Well, let's go back to the drawing board and reconfigure a flag that does not represent slavery and racial superiority- nobody. That, was the clear intended purpose, as previously passed and continued on for the next 150+ years as a symbol of same, morphing into non military battles of enfranchisement and segregation.

On those Christian families, I confess they are better persons than me, in that I (like many here) could never forgive the murderer of their families. I find the entire Church the most composed and respectful of all, during this terrible aftermath. :ThmbUp: With respect to their beliefs, yes I disagree with some of them and would debate them on that- which I have done with people like Boxie previously. We agree to disagree. What's wrong with that?

[PaceAdvantage]

We agree to disagree. What's wrong with that?Nothing, but if you think that's how the majority of those with your political leanings feel towards them, you are living in a dream world.

Liberals and hardcore left-leaners hold devout Christians in contempt. They think of them as backward...unintelligent...not all that different from how the slave owners of the south thought about their slaves...

[Clocker]

Time to sanitize the military. The left is now offended by the names of certain US military bases which honor Confederate officers, such as Fort Bragg and Fort Hood, and wants them changed.

Wow, no one ever made the connection between the mass shooting at Fort Hood and the fact that the name of the place was politically incorrect. That had to be a contributing factor. :rolleyes:

[classhandicapper]

I know what they claim it means to them. What I need is an explanation is how they made the leap from it was originally (a symbol for an army that was trying to preserve slavery) to what they claim it means to them today.

You keep implying the war was 100% about slavery. The war was about secession. Lincoln was determined to keep the union whole. There was more than one reason for secession even if complaints related to slavery were the primary ones.

I think to a large extent the conservative south still resents the liberal north and obviously disagrees with it on a large list of issues. So even though all southerners are way past slavery and most are way past segregation and racism, the flag is still the unifying symbol of the values of the south vs the values of the north.

[PaceAdvantage]

The war was about slavery...let's not kid ourselves here...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

[Marshall Bennett]

It's all bullshit with the same theme. As soon as the flag dilemma settles, another demand will surface over something else found to be offensive.
Perhaps not in our lifetime, but eventually a breaking point will be reached and another civil war will ensue.
What happens after that? Perhaps more flags....:)

[classhandicapper]

The war was about slavery...let's not kid ourselves here...

It was not only about slavery.

Each of the states that seceded wrote a document explaining their reason for secession. These are documents that are not muddied by post war politics, the winner getting to write the history and place blame, the loser trying to make itself look better etc...

Unquestionably, the dominant reason for each state was slavery or issues related to slavery (like the north was not returning escaped slaves to their rightful owners in the south and things like that).

However, some of the states listed several reasons.

For example, a lot of what Texas complained about was related to not getting support from Washington to help fight Indians still in the territory and Mexicans coming across the border (which is kind of ironic :lol: ). So they concluded they would be better off being independent of the north to deal with those issues on their own as they saw fit.

There were some procedural issues that the south felt were not legal (some of which may have been related to slavery and some not).

There were a few other reasons, though clearly WAY smaller than slavery.

Lincoln himself was quoted as approximately saying he was more motivated to keep the union whole than he was to end slavery. He's seen as some great anti slavery icon, but that came later. He had some very racist views early on. One of the reasons he didn't want any new states to be slave states was because slave labor was undercutting the labor of whites and costing them jobs.

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't say it was ONLY about slavery...let's go with an 80/20 split...might be too low...but we'll settle on 80/20, even though it's probably more like 95/5

Did you read the historical quotes from that Atlantic article?

[Robert Goren]

It was not only about slavery.

Each of the states that seceded wrote a document explaining their reason for secession. The dominant reason for each state was slavery or issues related to slavery (like the north was not returning escaped slaves to their rightful owners in the south and things like that).

However, some of the states listed several reasons.

For example, a lot of what Texas complained about was related to not getting support from Washington to help fight Indians still in the territory and Mexicans coming across the border (which is kind of ironic :lol: ). So they concluded they would be better off being independent of the north to deal with those issues on their own as they saw fit.

There were some procedural issues that the south felt were not legal (some of which may have been related to slavery and some not).

Lincoln himself was quoted as approximately saying he was more motivated to keep the union whole than he was to end slavery. He's seen as some great anti slavery icon, but that came later. He had some very racist views early on. One of the reasons he didn't want any new states to be slave states was because slave labor was undercutting the labor of whites and costing them jobs.He had some very racist views at the time of his death, too. His views on the Black race were not all that different than those of Jefferson Davis. At least at the end, he did come around on the issue of the enslavement of the Black race.

[FocusWiz]

It was at least partly about the economic differences between the slavery of the South (where even the worker doing the most mundane job had to be provided with food, clothing and shelter) and the oppressive factories of the North (which realized that workers could be paid barely enough for food, giving rise to the trade unions of the time and leading to today's call for a "living" wage for even the most menial task).

Most Northerners, myself included, were taught that this was about slavery and the good guys won. No war is that simple, including this one. There is a reason why we call it the Civil War as opposed to the War for Southern Independence. The winners get to write the history books. Slavery would have died out eventually even had the South successfully seceded as it has in the rest of the world.

Yes, there are ties in the South to a better past and what could have been, but that better past is not focused on having slaves.

[Clocker]

Most Northerners, myself included, were taught that this was about slavery and the good guys won. No war is that simple, including this one. There is a reason why we call it the Civil War as opposed to the War for Southern Independence. The winners get to write the history books. Slavery would have died out eventually even had the South successfully seceded as it has in the rest of the world.

In the South it was called the War of Northern Aggression.

[Tom]

So now the left, particularly the Black Wing of it has a conundrum.
They love to whine about how slavery was built into the constitution, but now they have backed themselves into a corner because the have to acknowledge that we fought a war, and won it, to end slavery.

What to do.....

[classhandicapper]

I didn't say it was ONLY about slavery...let's go with an 80/20 split...might be too low...but we'll settle on 80/20, even though it's probably more like 95/5

Did you read the historical quotes from that Atlantic article?

I'm not even a history or civil war buff, but I'd say 85-15 is reasonable.

I am discounting historical quotes, newspaper analysis, historian analysis etc.. because people with a political agenda can always find individuals, quotes, articles etc.. that make their case. That's what the winners do. On the flip side, whole books have been written about what a terrible racist Lincoln was and how he was breaking all sorts of laws as president that justified secession. Those are also supported by quotes.

That why I trust the documents I spoke of. They tell you exactly what each state claimed was the reason for secession.

[classhandicapper]

In the South it was called the War of Northern Aggression.

As I understand it, people have it backwards.

People have been taught it was a war over slavery. It was not. It was a war over secession. The north invaded the south because it seceded (which the south deemed as perfectly legal)

Then you have to analyze the reason for secession (which was primarily slavery related).

Then you have to decide whether it was worth losing all those people and destroying the south to keep the union together when ending slavery was not Lincoln's primary motivation for war.

[Clocker]

Then you have to decide whether it was worth losing all those people and destroying the south to keep the union together when ending slavery was not Lincoln's primary motivation for war.

People also conveniently forget that the Emancipation Proclamation was a war tactic, it was not about slavery. It only applied to slaves in states that had seceded. Slavery remained legal in border slave states that had remained in the Union.

[PaceAdvantage]

People also conveniently forget that the Emancipation Proclamation was a war tactic, it was not about slavery. It only applied to slaves in states that had seceded. Slavery remained legal in border slave states that had remained in the Union.Which is why I don't understand why there isn't more of an uproar over the U.S. Flag...

Why stop at Lee's battle flag?

[FocusWiz]

Which is why I don't understand why there isn't more of an uproar over the U.S. Flag...

Why stop at Lee's battle flag?Exactly, although it has changed (as the Confederate flag also would have), it has stood for slavery and black (and women and other minority) oppression for years.

Perhaps some white supremacist organization needs to adopt the American Flag as their symbol of hatred to confuse the issue further.

[JustRalph]

Damn, I'm glad racism is over. Got rid of the root cause. The flag.

Walmart and the rest of the cowardly bastards ran straight into the herd.

I predict a backlash. You won't see the flag at the Statehouse anymore. But it is going to be everywhere else. Amazon had 2000% percent increase in Confederate flag sales yesterday.

Just as with guns, this will be the greatest marketing bonanza ever for Confederate flags........ :bang: ****ing idiots............

There were several Confederate flag domains sold yesterday. Several online stores are going to fill the gap. Once again.... the opposite of the liberal desire will occur.

[Clocker]

Just as with guns, this will be the greatest marketing bonanza ever for Confederate flags........ :bang: ****ing idiots............



Most of which are currently made in Taiwan.

[Robert Goren]

Damn, I'm glad racism is over. Got rid of the root cause. The flag.

Walmart and the rest of the cowardly bastards ran straight into the herd.

I predict a backlash. You won't see the flag at the Statehouse anymore. But it is going to be everywhere else. Amazon had 2000% percent increase in Confederate flag sales yesterday.

Just as with guns, this will be the greatest marketing bonanza ever for Confederate flags........ :bang: ****ing idiots............

There were several Confederate flag domains sold yesterday. Several online stores are going to fill the gap. Once again.... the opposite of the liberal desire will occur.Amazon is among the many who have stopped selling that flag.

[Clocker]

Amazon is among the many who have stopped selling that flag.

And we will remember this as the day the oceans stopped rising and the earth began to heal.

[Tom]

I...I can walk!
I can walk!

Oh, I could before, but now I have a swagger in my step.
Life is good again, and we all will live happily ever after.

Until reality bites us again.

[Clocker]

Life is good again, and we all will live happily ever after.



We will live happily ever after, as soon as we erase all artifacts reminding us of the evils of our history. We actually remain so barbaric and politically incorrect as to have public monuments to slave owners in our national capital. How can this great nation honor men like Washington and Jefferson that engaged in such despicable, inhumane practices?

[Mystic]

Ben Jones - Actor on Dukes of Hazard - Defends Confederate flag, saying it's a symbol of the spirit of Independence.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/dukes-of-hazzard-actor-defends-confederate-flag-our-beloved-symbol-is-now-being-attacked/ar-AAc3lwb

[Ocala Mike]

Keep equating the Nazis to the Confederates...I'm about to vomit...maybe you can push me over the edge.



Or maybe the Governor of Alabama can; you do know that he equated the confederate flag to the swastika today, right?

[Tom]

I want the danged Declaration of Independence taken away and scrapped - it was writen by a slave owner! :eek:

In fact, we should ask England to take us back because obviously we should never have seceded.

btw, the Gov of Alabama is an idiot.
I equate his brain to pudding.

[elysiantraveller]

My 2 cents. I really don't understand what a flag has to do with racism and acts of terror. Does the flag invoke racial thoughts absolutely yes, but to shoehorn it into the shooting is a helluva leap.

Now the flag. I don't really want to get into this debate about what the flag means to "you." The flag represents a short lived nation that's entire economy survived on the back of slave labor. We can discuss the the motives for war all the way back to the Mason-Dixon Line if you want but the above statement is true. That flag represented a country that couldn't survive without slave labor.

If you find some other meaning in it and feel the need to fly it are you entitled to do so? Certainly! No less entitled than I am to think you are ****ing ignorant for it.

[Rookies]

"I want the danged Declaration of Independence taken away and scrapped - it was writen by a slave owner! "

Well, there was that to follow, inconsequential, who would ever notice, 60% thingee...

[Show Me the Wire]

Or maybe the Governor of Alabama can; you do know that he equated the confederate flag to the swastika today, right?

What about the eagle? The eagle was the symbol of the Nazi party too.

[Robert Goren]

I want the danged Declaration of Independence taken away and scrapped - it was writen by a slave owner! :eek:

In fact, we should ask England to take us back because obviously we should never have seceded.

btw, the Gov of Alabama is an idiot.
I equate his brain to pudding.He is a right wing republican, so what would you expect? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tall One]

Obviously not enforced anymore, but maybe the Guvnor of Alabama should get that law they have against integrated schools off the books first.

[Tom]

Obviously not enforced anymore, but maybe the Guvnor of Alabama should get that law they have against integrated schools off the books first.

Style over substance.
And Bobby, stupid knows no party.

[Tom]

What about the eagle? The eagle was the symbol of the Nazi party too.

And lightening bolts for the SS.
Ban the FLASH!

[Marshall Bennett]

People living in any American city who's racist name is tied to the Confederacy should expect a name change in the near future. All sports franchises must follow suit. All racist street names nationwide with any ties to the Confederacy must be changed. Any and all maps carrying these racist names will have to be changed as well.
Everyone (no exceptions) who's name in anyway can be tied to the Confederacy must have their racist names changed.
Stay tuned for further changes due to racism. :)

[ArlJim78]

Words, symbols, flags, cartoons, are to be banned if the busybodies so choose.
The Taliban have fewer social demands than today's western progressives.
Toe the line or face public shaming, gov compulsion or worse.

[Tall One]

People living in any American city who's racist name is tied to the Confederacy should expect a name change in the near future. All sports franchises must follow suit. All racist street names nationwide with any ties to the Confederacy must be changed. Any and all maps carrying these racist names will have to be changed as well.
Everyone (no exceptions) who's name in anyway can be tied to the Confederacy must have their racist names changed.
Stay tuned for further changes due to racism. :)



I know, lets just pretend like it never happened. Hundreds of years of history down the crapper. In fact, I'm looking forward to celebrating the first year of our new Country on July 4th!

Oh wait...does the 4th offend anybody? Is there a petition being passed around?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[RunForTheRoses]

Ann Coulter knocks it out of the park:

http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2015/06/24/theres-a-reason-we-mostly-hear-about-white-microaggressions-n2017031

[JustRalph]

Ann Coulter knocks it out of the park:

http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2015/06/24/theres-a-reason-we-mostly-hear-about-white-microaggressions-n2017031

Hard to get around some things........the numbers don't lie. The FBI has been keeping these numbers for years......


"The FBI's crime victimization surveys tell a very different story, one more in line with a normal person's life experience.

In 2008, the most recent year for which such data seems to have been collected, FBI surveys show that, out of 520,161 interracial violent crimes, blacks committed 429,444 of them against whites, while whites committed 90,717 of them against blacks.

In other words, blacks commit more than 80 percent of all interracial violent crime."

[reckless]

Hard to get around some things........the numbers don't lie. The FBI has been keeping these numbers for years......

The reality and numbers don't lie but the media does lie, plus the Democrats and their sycophants lie all the time, Just Ralph.

[FocusWiz]

Not disagreeing with anything said, but wouldn't it to be expected that the news coverage ratio would not match real world statistics. The more commonplace an occurrence, the less "newsworthy" it would be. The aphorism is often stated as, "You never read about a plane that did not crash".

[Tom]

Time to close Win Dixie stores.
Cotton, of course is now banned.

[Mystic]

"Confederate flag burning doesn’t actually do anything to stop racism. It’s a complete sideshow. And once we’ve blown up every confederate statue and smashed every tombstone with Confederate marks and erased all evidence of the Confederacy from our roads, we’ll still have the scourge of racism and every other sin with us."

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/23/congratulations-you-oppose-the-confederate-flag-now-what/

[JustRalph]

Time to close Win Dixie stores.
Cotton, of course is now banned.


You're killing me :lol:

[dartman51]

"Confederate flag burning doesn’t actually do anything to stop racism. It’s a complete sideshow. And once we’ve blown up every confederate statue and smashed every tombstone with Confederate marks and erased all evidence of the Confederacy from our roads, we’ll still have the scourge of racism and every other sin with us."

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/23/congratulations-you-oppose-the-confederate-flag-now-what/

The LEFT and SOME on the right have become ISIS, without the beheadings. Destroying statues they don't like, or they feel, stands for something they don't like. They are destroying the country right before our eyes. :faint:

[Rookies]

The LEFT and SOME on the right have become ISIS, without the beheadings. Destroying statues they don't like, or they feel, stands for something they don't like. They are destroying the country right before our eyes. :faint:

And there you have it. A member of the Walking Dead appears before us. You can't make these buffoons up!

[Clocker]

The LEFT and SOME on the right have become ISIS, without the beheadings.

Not a good analogy. Unlike the left, ISIS is forthright and honest about its intentions and motivations.

[Tom]

I don't really give a rats ass about the Confederate flag, as it's known today. I was never a southerner...I have no "southern pride" whatever that is...

I think people will never stop finding windmills to tilt at...invented controversies...things that constantly offend someone/EVERYONE...whatever...just another in a long line of manufactured crises...

Let's just kill this flag and get the inevitable over with and move onto the next thing that offends...

Calypso Louise Farrakhan is now calling to put down the American flag.

[Mystic]

Calypso Louise Farrakhan is now calling to put down the American flag.

This whole thing has become absurd.

[Robert Goren]

This whole thing has become absurd.The whole became absurd in 1962 when Southern states drug out the flag after nearly a century in moth balls to protest the federal government trying forcing them to start treating its Black citizens the same as its White citizens.

[classhandicapper]

Ann Coulter knocks it out of the park:

http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2015/06/24/theres-a-reason-we-mostly-hear-about-white-microaggressions-n2017031

She almost always knocks it out of the park because she's at least trying to get at the truth and is not afraid to tell it even when it's politically incorrect. Like everyone else, she can be wrong. She also purposely "trolls' the left and hands red meat to the right to create controversy. But she doesn't allow idealism to make her delusional or hide uncomfortable truths, she's not a God hating Satan worshipper, and she's not "weapons grade" stupid.

[GaryG]

Watch out all of you slavemasters out there. This clown is comin for you!


http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/06/24/black-panther-chairman-complete-charlestons-slave-rebellions-plan-to-kill-all-the-slave-masters/

[reckless]

The whole became absurd in 1962 when Southern states drug out the flag after nearly a century in moth balls to protest the federal government trying forcing them to start treating its Black citizens the same as its White citizens.

Yes, when Democrat senators Al Gore Sr., Robert Byrd, J.W. Fulbright, Richard Russell, John Stennis, and others filibusted the 1964 Civil Rights Act vote for 57 days, they supported racism, hatred and segregation. They all waved the Confederate Flag, and their Confederate Flag represented hatred, racism and divide.

Yes, when Democrat senator Robert Byrd held his KKK meetings while handing out white sheets, match sticks and hangman's nooses, he stood in front of the Confederate Flag and the Confederate Flag that he waved represented hatred, racism and divide.

Yes, when Democrat county commissioner Bull Connor of Selma, Alabama, turned the dogs out and opened the fire hoses against black American citizens, he too waved the Confederate Flag and Bull Connors' Confederate Flag represented hatred, racism and divide.

Yet, when citizens of the South cheered wildly for Bo Jackson, George Rogers, Herschel Walker and 100s of others, they waved the Confederate Flag and the Confederate Flag they waved represented tradition, honor, sportsmanship and achievement.

And, finally, the Confederate Flag seen around and about at colleges such as The Citadel and VMI that Confederate Flag represents country, honor, commitment, duty, and history.

If this country has issues with hatred, racism and divide we could 'thank' Democrats, left wing totalitarians and liberalism for all this discord.

[Tom]

This clown is comin for you!

Do we now ban all things Africa?
Funny how when the hatred and vitriol com efrom the left, there is no outrage and call to ban things.

Racism exist.....ad there it is.

[Tom]

Would this guy not fit the description of the obviously mentally deranged people that we should spotting BEFORE they commit violence?

Would you libs be opposed to having this guy arrested and investigated for mental capabilities based on his violent words? Or should be just ban something, or pass tougher laws about something?

I think he should be placed under 72 hour observation.

[TJDave]

The whole became absurd in 1962 when Southern states drug out the flag after nearly a century in moth balls to protest the federal government trying forcing them to start treating its Black citizens the same as its White citizens.

That's about as right as you can get it.

[elysiantraveller]

...

:confused:

So are you using examples of when it's been used as a symbol of racism and discrimination to defend it or just attempting to be partisan?... :confused:

[Clocker]

Apple has removed all Civil War games from the App Store because they display the Confederate flag in "offensive and mean-spirited ways..." :rolleyes:

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/

[Robert Fischer]

The local waffle-diner has removed their James Earl Ray posters stating it could be offensive to some.

This is getting to be absurd. Expect a push-back.

[PaceAdvantage]

That's pretty insane, but not unexpected coming from Apple.

Next, all WWII video games and all WWII movies will be scrubbed of the Nazi flag...

You idiots out there...and you know who you are...you are NOT creating a better world through censorship...you're just not.

[GaryG]

Gone With the Wind is next on the hit list. This is almost funny....shit, it IS funny!

http://nypost.com/2015/06/24/gone-with-the-wind-should-go-the-way-of-the-confederate-flag/

[Tom]

Shirley Temple......out of here!

[Inner Dirt]

I have only lived in the South for 4 of my 54 years. There are so many civil war era monuments and plaques here in Central Virginia it would blow your mind. By looking at everything you would think the South won the war, not lost it. I think for many the confederate flag represents telling the federal government to shove it, that state's rights are important and has nothing to do with racism.

On the other hand when it does represent racism why would anyone want to stop that expression? If I am a black guy whose car breaks down and my cell phone is dead, I sure would not want to knock on a house's door in the middle of the night that has a confederate flag flying in the yard. If I am the same guy and some dude with a swastika tattoo offers me a lift I think I would pass. If people want to advertise their beliefs, let them do it. It is better for us all to find out sooner than later.

[ronsmac]

I have only lived in the South for 4 of my 54 years. There are so many civil war era monuments and plaques here in Central Virginia it would blow your mind. By looking at everything you would think the South won the war, not lost it. I think for many the confederate flag represents telling the federal government to shove it, that state's rights are important and has nothing to do with racism.

On the other hand when it does represent racism why would anyone want to stop that expression? If I am a black guy whose car breaks down and my cell phone is dead, I sure would not want to knock on a house's door in the middle of the night that has a confederate flag flying in the yard. If I am the same guy and some dude with a swastika tattoo offers me a lift I think I would pass. If people want to advertise their beliefs, let them do it. It is better for us all to find out sooner than later.Virginia's nothing. I had an ex gf from Tennessee and she used to go to Bedford Forrest National Park.

[Robert Goren]

The local waffle-diner has removed their James Earl Ray posters stating it could be offensive to some.

This is getting to be absurd. Expect a push-back. Sarcastic post of the year to date. :lol: :lol:

[reckless]

:confused:

So are you using examples of when it's been used as a symbol of racism and discrimination to defend it or just attempting to be partisan?... :confused:

What I am saying is that the racism, hatred, segregation, brutality against blacks in our country is the responsibility of the Democrat Party and in its DNA.

These Democratic political 'heroes' and their decendents were proven to be racist, vulgar people and the liberal ideology that exists today, right here and right now, is what's behind the lie that says the Confederate Flag is the cause of all this.

I am saying all that and additionally saying that same Confederate Flag was proudly waved cheering on black athletes such as Herschel Walker, George Rogers and others.

Sorry if you can't see the same things I see but to me it's very clear.

[Marshall Bennett]

You idiots out there...and you know who you are...you are NOT creating a better world through censorship...you're just not.
That's the keynote that liberals, particularly black leaders fail to grasp. Perhaps they do, but creating havoc outweighs their true sentiment in dealing with race issues. I have had several friends over the past several years that used to argue with me tooth & nail on the subject. Slowly they've changed their positions and are now as prejudice if not more so than me (admitting I'm prejudice should be no breaking news at PA).
As prejudice as I may seem, the truth is I don't want to be. What a wonderful productive country it would be if racism didn't exist. Unfortunately it's only getting much worse. Unfortunately we've likely sank to a level beyond repair.
This here at home along with our dire situation abroad trying to fight terrorism equates to really bad news down the road. I'd hate to be able to look into the future. What an ugly scene.

[elysiantraveller]

What I am saying is that the racism, hatred, segregation, brutality against blacks in our country is the responsibility of the Democrat Party and in its DNA.

These Democratic political 'heroes' and their decendents were proven to be racist, vulgar people and the liberal ideology that exists today, right here and right now, is what's behind the lie that says the Confederate Flag is the cause of all this.

I am saying all that and additionally saying that same Confederate Flag was proudly waved cheering on black athletes such as Herschel Walker, George Rogers and others.

Sorry if you can't see the same things I see but to me it's very clear.

Racism in this country has been institutionalized to some extent since its inception. What good does trying to draw up political lines accomplish? Is it just so you can breathe a sigh of relief that you aren't the culprit? I know of racists that are liberal, conservative, communist, anarchist, totalitarian, and everywhere in between. We can go tit for tat with people from across the spectrum that are racists... But what does that really have to do with anything?

A cursory glance would draw the conclusion that one party exploits blacks while the other disenfranchises them... It might also conclude that 70 years ago those roles were reversed but who really gives a shit? Racism is bad whether it's a donkey or elephant committing it no?

[JustRalph]

How in hell does the Repub party disenfranchise them? Minorities are more than welcome as Repubs

Ever heard of

Jindal
Haley
West
Scott
Cruz
Love

I could go on.......in S Carolina one of the Senators is black for Christ Sake!

[elysiantraveller]

That's pretty insane, but not unexpected coming from Apple.

Next, all WWII video games and all WWII movies will be scrubbed of the Nazi flag...

You idiots out there...and you know who you are...you are NOT creating a better world through censorship...you're just not.

This is a total two-way street. No one likes it when the first amendment pisses them off.

[elysiantraveller]

How in hell does the Repub party disenfranchise them? Minorities are more than welcome as Repubs

Ever heard of

Jindal
Haley
West
Scott
Cruz
Love

I could go on.......in S Carolina one of the Senators is black for Christ Sake!

Really Ralph? The "I Have Black Friends" defense?

The Republican party's last major urban reform plan was the War on Drugs. Democrats attempt to buy votes with promises and handouts, Republicans, let's be real, just don't give a shit. Are these sweeping generalizations? Sure. Is there some honesty in them? I think so.

The point I was attempting to make is no one is innocent when it comes to social injustice in America. To sit up on an ivory tower and point fingers like the OP is completely pointless.

[Tall One]

Would this guy not fit the description of the obviously mentally deranged people that we should spotting BEFORE they commit violence?

Would you libs be opposed to having this guy arrested and investigated for mental capabilities based on his violent words? Or should be just ban something, or pass tougher laws about something?

I think he should be placed under 72 hour observation.


Roof is 1000000% bat shit crazy.

But, if they'd took the flag down last Monday, this would be all for naught. Right?

:rolleyes:

[Inner Dirt]

Would this guy not fit the description of the obviously mentally deranged people that we should spotting BEFORE they commit violence?

Would you libs be opposed to having this guy arrested and investigated for mental capabilities based on his violent words? Or should be just ban something, or pass tougher laws about something?

I think he should be placed under 72 hour observation.

That is the only thing that would be effective, but liberals would say that violated his civil rights.

[Tom]

They are pretty quiet on this one......

[burnsy]

I have only lived in the South for 4 of my 54 years. There are so many civil war era monuments and plaques here in Central Virginia it would blow your mind. By looking at everything you would think the South won the war, not lost it. I think for many the confederate flag represents telling the federal government to shove it, that state's rights are important and has nothing to do with racism.

On the other hand when it does represent racism why would anyone want to stop that expression? If I am a black guy whose car breaks down and my cell phone is dead, I sure would not want to knock on a house's door in the middle of the night that has a confederate flag flying in the yard. If I am the same guy and some dude with a swastika tattoo offers me a lift I think I would pass. If people want to advertise their beliefs, let them do it. It is better for us all to find out sooner than later.

I can see where the black folks don't like it. But as a white guy I have a different take on why I think it should be gone. No one ever mentions the 600,000 mostly white folks that died over that war. Or when I was 19 years old and stationed in Charleston SC some of the other people (southern) called me a "Yankee" because I'm from NY, at the time I didn't even get it. Some of these chumps actually still live this crap. Then they attempt to portray themselves as Great Americans that support the real flag....but guess what? If they had actually won the war there would probably be an attempt to "moth ball" the Stars and Stripes. The point is, forget about the racial issue of it, that flag itself was nothing short of an act of treason on this country. It put the entire Republic at peril and pretty much stands for an attempt to subvert and ruin this country....and, oh, by the way, also cost 600,000 mostly white folks and a president their lives. That's some real heritage to be proud of? :bang:

News flash, you morons lost the war over 150 years ago and waving that thing next to the real thing is an absolute joke........besides WW2, its probably the worst thing the country ever went through and it was self inflicted to boot. Do people even read history books any more? Oh yeah, I forgot Charleston county had the highest illiteracy rate in the country when I lived there....serving the US NAVY in a port where they tried to sink Union ships....give me a freaking break..... :ThmbDown:

[Track Collector]

People living in any American city who's racist name is tied to the Confederacy should expect a name change in the near future. All sports franchises must follow suit. All racist street names nationwide with any ties to the Confederacy must be changed. Any and all maps carrying these racist names will have to be changed as well.
Everyone (no exceptions) who's name in anyway can be tied to the Confederacy must have their racist names changed.
Stay tuned for further changes due to racism. :)

Holy smokes. I live in a development where the streets are named after confederate generals. Who knew I was exhibiting so much racist behavior?! :faint:

[Tom]

I am beginning to understand the Uni Bomber.

[Robert Goren]

How in hell does the Repub party disenfranchise them? Minorities are more than welcome as Repubs

Ever heard of

Jindal
Haley
West
Scott
Cruz
Love

I could go on.......in S Carolina one of the Senators is black for Christ Sake!In post #87 of this thread, reckless said Haley was White.