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nads1420
06-15-2015, 12:43 PM
Piss poor management of the horse this year. Perry Martin is a damn fool. Ends up keeping him in a foreign country, to run of a foreign surface, in the opposite direction to only scratch from the race. They should just let Art Sherman make all the calls from here on out with the horse... The horse could be the top 4 year old in America right now with shared belief sidelined. What a bunch of fools.

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Update: now its up in the air whether he will be scratched or not. If hes hurt scratch him and bring him back here. Did you not see what just ahppened to Danzig Moon?

Bad decision #1 - Run the horse on turf in England.

Bad decision #2 - run an injured California Chrome on turf in England.

Bring him back to the USA in one piece and just let Art make the calls going forward. Perry Martin has proven to be a poor decision maker.

RXB
06-15-2015, 01:19 PM
In order to equal or surpass the purse money that they got just for finishing second in Dubai, those "fools" would've had to have won the Santa Anita Handicap (good luck with a fit Shared Belief in there), the Charles Town Classic and the Met Mile. So much for "total disaster."

He has a foot abscess, apparently. Bayern had a foot abscess over the winter, got it without leaving his home base. Shared Belief has had foot trouble in the past, again without travelling. There's nothing that guarantees that California Chrome would've stayed perfectly healthy if he'd just stayed in his regular stall.

nads1420
06-15-2015, 01:22 PM
In order to equal or surpass the purse money that they got just for finishing second in Dubai, those "fools" would've had to have won the Santa Anita Handicap (good luck with a fit Shared Belief in there), the Charles Town Classic and the Met Mile. So much for "total disaster."

He has a foot abscess, apparently. Bayern had a foot abscess over the winter, got it without leaving his home base. Shared Belief has had foot trouble in the past, again without travelling. There's nothing that guarantees that California Chrome would've stayed perfectly healthy if he'd just stayed in his regular stall.

Nothing wrong with going to the Dubai World Cup. but the england race was idiotic... Just ask Art Sherman what he thinks...

thaskalos
06-15-2015, 01:24 PM
Sometimes...the needs of the owners and the needs of the horse clash.

RXB
06-15-2015, 01:32 PM
Nothing wrong with going to the Dubai World Cup. but the england race was idiotic... Just ask Art Sherman what he thinks...

Art Sherman didn't want to send the horse to Dubai, either. Was it really about the well-being of the horse, or was it just inconvenient to the personal preferences of Art and Alan Sherman?

letswastemoney
06-15-2015, 01:34 PM
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Update: now its up in the air whether he will be scratched or not. If hes hurt scratch him and bring him back here. Did you not see what just ahppened to Danzig Moon?
Danzig Moon has nothing to do with California Chrome's situation. What an overblown post.

letswastemoney
06-15-2015, 01:35 PM
Chrome is still entered in the Coral Eclipse on July 4.

They can run him in that spot if he misses Royal Ascot.

alydar
06-15-2015, 01:50 PM
2nd place in the biggest purse offered in the world, so far I would say it has gone pretty well. Chrome's biggest problem is his owner's mouth. Had he not made a fool of himself after the Belmont, I think there would be a lot fewer critics.

This English experiment may or may not go well. As long as the horse stays healthy I do not see the harm.

Tom
06-15-2015, 03:10 PM
Second in the world's richest race.

That slackard!

RunDustyRun
06-15-2015, 04:47 PM
Seems as if Graham Motion received much less criticism when he took the same route with Animal Kingdom, granted his last race was a disaster but at least the connections put him up against the best...not sure why Chrome's owners are receiving so much heat...I would argue that Chrome made Sherman and not the other way around...he wasn't complaining when he was running the horse every month and benefiting from the purses...

nads1420
06-15-2015, 06:59 PM
hes raced twice since the breeders cup. would of liked to see this special horse a little more none the less here in america.. Although i really like the Dubai World Cup, obviously that was a must considering the purse and i thought he ran great with a terrible trip. But England? who gives a crap.. keep the horse on dirt and running in one direction...


Off topic but man would it be cool if American Pharoah ran his last race in the Dubai World Cup next year....

dilanesp
06-15-2015, 07:14 PM
Seems as if Graham Motion received much less criticism when he took the same route with Animal Kingdom, granted his last race was a disaster but at least the connections put him up against the best...not sure why Chrome's owners are receiving so much heat...I would argue that Chrome made Sherman and not the other way around...he wasn't complaining when he was running the horse every month and benefiting from the purses...

One big difference with Animal Kingdom is he clearly loved the synthetic, so anyone with a brain would have shipped him to Dubai (it was on tapeta that year).

But in general, I do agree with the consensus here-- going to Dubai with Chrome made perfect sense, and the horse ran fine there and picked up a big check. England? We shall see.

Just hope he makes it back in one piece and we get a showdown with American Pharoah in the fall.

nads1420
06-15-2015, 07:34 PM
One big difference with Animal Kingdom is he clearly loved the synthetic, so anyone with a brain would have shipped him to Dubai (it was on tapeta that year).

But in general, I do agree with the consensus here-- going to Dubai with Chrome made perfect sense, and the horse ran fine there and picked up a big check. England? We shall see.

Just hope he makes it back in one piece and we get a showdown with American Pharoah in the fall.

Chrome vs Pharoah is great TV

NY BRED
06-15-2015, 08:45 PM
Can't understand the logic of parlaying Dubai into England
with hills etc

These owners deserve their name, placing a game Tbred at
risk for only one reason: money :mad:

Think about it; you won the won millions after spending about 40k for
the horse and training expense.

Your horse needs to be turned out, but you elect to go to Dubai,
and point the horse to the Ascot as you won a worthless race on the turf.

Truly, these morons deserve their ownership name; Perhaps
PETA will take notice.

Art Sherman, unless he has turned senile or desperate(or both)
should distance himself with these a**holes asap.

:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

VeryOldMan
06-15-2015, 09:06 PM
But in general, I do agree with the consensus here-- going to Dubai with Chrome made perfect sense, and the horse ran fine there and picked up a big check. England? We shall see.

Just hope he makes it back in one piece and we get a showdown with American Pharoah in the fall.
Count me in - hard to knock picking up a $2 million paycheck; let's hope he shows up big in the fall and we see some replication of the glory days of older v. younger like Seattle Slew v. Affirmed, Riva Ridge v. Secretariat, etc. That sure couldn't hurt the sport.

Tom
06-15-2015, 09:16 PM
These owners deserve their name, placing a game Tbred at
risk for only one reason: money

So the horses running at Ascot are all at risk?
Is the Queen aware of this?

Redboard
06-16-2015, 12:19 PM
Since most of them lose their shirts, I would never rip an owner for taking the money(as long as the horse is healthy). But that’s not the case here. The only reason CC is running at Ascot is because Coburn wants to meet the Queen, visit Big Ben, and dress in a tux. Fine. People enter their horse in the Kentucky Derby because they want to drink mint juleps and wear funny hats. Fine, even though their horse has no shot. I don’t have a problem with that.
But then saying he wants to run at Ascot to increase CC’s breeding value, is like Michael Jordon saying he wants to play baseball to up his Nike contract. The horse never had a shot and I’d be real surprised if they didn’t call the whole thing off and come home because they don’t have the guts to see him finish up the track. I must admit I’m a little biased. Coburn’s rants about people being cowards still sticks in my craw, a little. Thank God this idiot didn’t win the triple crown.

Rex Phinney
06-16-2015, 12:34 PM
Since most of them lose their shirts, I would never rip an owner for taking the money(as long as the horse is healthy). But that’s not the case here. The only reason CC is running at Ascot is because Coburn wants to meet the Queen, visit Big Ben, and dress in a tux. Fine. People enter their horse in the Kentucky Derby because they want to drink mint juleps and wear funny hats. Fine, even though their horse has no shot. I don’t have a problem with that.
But then saying he wants to run at Ascot to increase CC’s breeding value, is like Michael Jordon saying he wants to play baseball to up his Nike contract. The horse never had a shot and I’d be real surprised if they didn’t call the whole thing off and come home because they don’t have the guts to see him finish up the track. I must admit I’m a little biased. Coburn’s rants about people being cowards still sticks in my craw, a little. Thank God this idiot didn’t win the triple crown.

Steve Coburn wanted no part of going to England or Dubai to run. All of this international running is totally on Perry Martin's shoulders. IMO if you read between the lines, Martin did not even want to run in the San Antonio against Shared Belief, he would have had Chrome in Dubai a few months earlier.

SandyLoam
06-16-2015, 01:07 PM
What made them think he's a turf horse, or master of surfaces? Really, I'm asking. And I'm not sure he can get 10 furlongs anymore. He's not going to come home the American expatriate and conquer the Breeders Cup Classic.

clocker7
06-16-2015, 01:49 PM
Fact is, CC doesn't have anything left to prove in a traditional sense, when it comes to dirt racing excellence.

Won 2 legs of a TC. Then came close at 12f with an injury. After coming off a layoff, was the best looking horse at the finish of the 2014 BC Classic, just needing a few more yards. Ran creditably in Dubai.

He's pretty much demonstrated his excellence under the norms of the modern racing culture. Maybe he could be tested under 138 pounds somewhere, if that could complete the traditional picture of excellence, I guess.

I dunno. For centuries, American turfites sending their champions overseas to stretch the abilities of their charges were applauded. Nowadays, it's abuse, cupidity or stupidity? How mean-spirited.

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 01:50 PM
Chrome vs Pharoah is great TVChrome is yesterday's news...and boring news at that.

Let the horse actually WIN a race against some of the better horses in the US before we start thinking how great a race against AP would be...

The last race he won was against a bunch of 3yo turf horses in California...not exactly elite company...

Until further notice, this horse is on the FAR outside looking in, and his connections better actually do something to make Chrome worthy of a race against AP...

Grits
06-16-2015, 02:15 PM
Chrome is yesterday's news...and boring news at that.

Let the horse actually WIN a race against some of the better horses in the US before we start thinking how great a race against AP would be...

The last race he won was against a bunch of 3yo turf horses in California...not exactly elite company...

Until further notice, this horse is on the FAR outside looking in, and his connections better actually do something to make Chrome worthy of a race against AP...

This is a crummy thing to say about the horse. I get your "let's live in the here and now" and that you picked him to win the Triple Crown and all that, still, c'mon. This is necessary? :faint:

Given all the whining, all the time, about horses being retired, none of us, can tell owners what to do with their horses and you know this.

You speak of doing something here at home. Ok, if he wants to be the big star of turfdom, let him try the Arlington Million. So what. Why not?

If California Chrome is yesterday's news and boring news.. what, exactly, would you call Bayern--your Classic winner whom it would take a search warrant to find at this point.

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 02:20 PM
This is a crummy thing to say about the horse. I get your "let's live in the here and now" and that you picked him to win the Triple Crown and all that, still, c'mon. This is necessary? :faint:

Given all the whining, all the time, about horses being retired, none of us, can tell owners what to do with their horses and you know this.

You speak of doing something here at home. Ok, if he wants to be the big star of turfdom, let him try the Arlington Million. So what. Why not?

If California Chrome is yesterday's news and boring news.. what, exactly, would you call Bayern--your Classic winner whom it would take a search warrant to find at this point.I'm tired of people bringing up Chrome into the AP conversation...as if he's even worthy of such talk at this point. Let him actually WIN a race again before we all start dreaming of a Chrome vs. AP matchup...

It's ridiculous...people keep talking about Chrome as if he's actually relevant. He's been made irrelevant by his connections.

And I won't even dignify the Bayern comment. If I were clamoring for a Bayern vs. AP matchup, you might actually have a point. :p

Grits
06-16-2015, 02:24 PM
I didn't compare the horse to American Pharoah! Have no desire to do so. You're writing in a manner that's cheapening California Chrome, and that isn't necessary, not now, or at any time last year. The horse has shown up at every location he has run.

castaway01
06-16-2015, 02:31 PM
Fact is, CC doesn't have anything left to prove in a traditional sense, when it comes to dirt racing excellence.

Won 2 legs of a TC. Then came close at 12f with an injury. After coming off a layoff, was the best looking horse at the finish of the 2014 BC Classic, just needing a few more yards. Ran creditably in Dubai.

He's pretty much demonstrated his excellence under the norms of the modern racing culture. Maybe he could be tested under 138 pounds somewhere, if that could complete the traditional picture of excellence, I guess.

I dunno. For centuries, American turfites sending their champions overseas to stretch the abilities of their charges were applauded. Nowadays, it's abuse, cupidity or stupidity? How mean-spirited.

Before he wins with 138 pounds (haha), how about winning a race against older horses? Is that too tough of a standard to hold Chrome to to prove his "greatness", especially since he is an older horse himself.

Tell us about all of the great turf champions who were shipped to Europe and proved their greatness. Well, before that tell us how California Chrome is a turf champion. I must have missed that. Oh wait, he did beat Lexie Lou in a deep field of six.

And yes, the only word for this Royal Ascot move is, was, and continues to be stupidity. Extreme stupidity, pissing away the last few months of this great "champion's" career in an effort to avoid facing anyone who can run in this country.

clocker7
06-16-2015, 02:34 PM
I guess that don't understand the angst over a poster considering CC and AP meeting somewhere ... especially on a thread devoted to CC. :lol: :lol:

I sorta recall Seattle Slew being called yesterday's news in 1978, after the long layoff post-flop in CA, his ownership dysfunction and sanction, his illness, his training setbacks, his loss in a G3, and all the talk about beating bums the year before. Didn't look promising.

Racing has a funny way of taking care of hubris, though. You just never know until races are actually run.

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 02:37 PM
I guess that don't understand the angst over a poster considering CC and AP meeting somewhere ... especially on a thread devoted to CC. :lol: :lol: It hasn't only been mentioned here. It's been mentioned in a number of threads.

clocker7
06-16-2015, 02:38 PM
Before he wins with 138 pounds (haha), how about winning a race against older horses? Is that too tough of a standard to hold Chrome to to prove his "greatness", especially since he is an older horse himself.

Tell us about all of the great turf champions who were shipped to Europe and proved their greatness. Well, before that tell us how California Chrome is a turf champion. I must have missed that. Oh wait, he did beat Lexie Lou in a deep field of six.

And yes, the only word for this Royal Ascot move is, was, and continues to be stupidity. Extreme stupidity, pissing away the last few months of this great "champion's" career in an effort to avoid facing anyone who can run in this country.
"Turf" champions sent to Europe? You must have misinterpreted "turfite."

The list of (human) turfites sending dirt champions to Europe is very long, even in a time when it took ocean vessels to do so. And some of the results were very impressive.

Rex Phinney
06-16-2015, 02:38 PM
I didn't compare the horse to American Pharoah! Have no desire to do so. You're writing in a manner that's cheapening California Chrome, and that isn't necessary, not now, or at any time last year. The horse has shown up at every location he has run.

The dumb thing is, I think CC has the potential to still win races, maybe even some big ones. But his owners have to get their head out of their asses. The horse clearly took a step forward from Pennsylvania to the BCC. Since then they have mapped out a path that is so dumb noone could take them serious.

The horse is popular and could be drawing nice crowds to see him run here at home. You know running at the same tracks where his owners won all that money.....

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 02:40 PM
I didn't compare the horse to American Pharoah! Have no desire to do so. You're writing in a manner that's cheapening California Chrome, and that isn't necessary, not now, or at any time last year. The horse has shown up at every location he has run.I didn't compare them either, nor did I think you were comparing them. How can I compare something where I think there is no comparison? :lol:

What I'm saying is, Chrome hasn't earned the right for anyone to be considering a Chrome vs. AP matchup, as if AP has something to prove by beating Chrome. It's quite frankly far and away the other way around.

I was never a Chrome fan...even while he was winning, I never had much positive to say about him. He never impressed me. And I relished every chance I could betting against him.

I guess I was the EMD4ME of chromedom... :lol:

I also think it was a sham that he won HOY over Bayern. And as far as Bayern is concerned, he has turned out to be about the same as Chrome... :lol:

Yeah, yeah, I know...Chrome finished 2nd in the DWC...good for him...how about wining a race for a change.

clocker7
06-16-2015, 02:40 PM
It hasn't only been mentioned here. It's been mentioned in a number of threads.So? This is a Chrome thread, and a proper one to consider it in, no?

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 02:41 PM
I didn't bring up Chrome vs. AP, did I? That makes my comments fair game in this thread.

Grits
06-16-2015, 02:43 PM
BINGO.... :)

horses4courses
06-16-2015, 02:59 PM
Yeah, yeah, I know...Chrome finished 2nd in the DWC...good for him...how about wining a race for a change.

So, you would rather see him win some lousy stakes race here
than run second in the richest race in the world?

Last I knew, purse money is the best way for owners to keep score.
If I owned a horse of that caliber, I would wish there was a Dubai WC
every month, or two, to run second in. Never needs to win again.

tucker6
06-16-2015, 03:01 PM
I guess that don't understand the angst over a poster considering CC and AP meeting somewhere ... especially on a thread devoted to CC. :lol: :lol:

I sorta recall Seattle Slew being called yesterday's news in 1978, after the long layoff post-flop in CA, his ownership dysfunction and sanction, his illness, his training setbacks, his loss in a G3, and all the talk about beating bums the year before. Didn't look promising.

Racing has a funny way of taking care of hubris, though. You just never know until races are actually run.
So now CC is being compared to Seattle Slew?? C'mon man. At this stage of his life (mid 4th year), CC hasn't done squat to ever be mentioned in the same sentence with Seattle Slew. CC won the KD and the Preakness. Other than that, there is NOTHING else to hang your hat on. He has yet to beat older horses on dirt. Are the owners partially to blame? You bet. But some of this is on the horse's ability too. He's good, not great.

tucker6
06-16-2015, 03:04 PM
So, you would rather see him win some lousy stakes race here
than run second in the richest race in the world?

Last I knew, purse money is the best way for owners to keep score.
If I owned a horse of that caliber, I would wish there was a Dubai WC
every month, or two, to run second in. Never needs to win again.
Certainly you are correct. However, I would like to see Chrome win and beat horses at his age and talent level here at home before conquering the world stage. He's not all that. He has found a way to be second much too much.

nads1420
06-16-2015, 03:07 PM
Chrome bashers... ZZZZZZZZZ :sleeping:

Wake up people anyone who wouldnt enjoy AP vs CC needs to get their head checked. When was the last time we saw two Derby winners race vs each other? I think that would be fantastic.

i dont know who said it but someone said something like " even when he was winning 2 legs of the triple crown i wasnt impressed" - thats just a preposterous statement.


Chrome bashers :ThmbDown: - snap out of it already I wish every big time horse like that would run at 4. You should be embarrassed at the crap your all spewing if you are fans of the sport. :blush: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

ZZZ :sleeping:

clocker7
06-16-2015, 03:08 PM
Since when did CChrome's last few dirt races become so unimpressive? Granted, he hasn't beaten a monster like Frosted yet. But he DID run decently against Shared Belief, even though one being only a tuneup, right?

I don't understand this "unworthiness" nonsense. Or the necessity to run a methodical, tunnel-vision Game On Dude type schedule in order to please "concerned" optimalists. Why not sit back and enjoy the free-spiritedness of it all, rather than being so anal? Unpucker ... AP will get his chance to humiliate the bum.

nads1420
06-16-2015, 03:09 PM
Since when did CChrome's last few dirt races become so unimpressive? Granted, he hasn't beaten a monster like Frosted yet. But he DID run decently against Shared Belief, even though one being only a tuneup, right?

I don't understand this "unworthiness" nonsense. Or the necessity to run a methodical, tunnel-vision Game On Dude type schedule in order to please "concerned" optimalists. Why not sit back and enjoy the free-spiritedness of it all, rather than being so anal? Unpucker ... AP will get his chance to humiliate the bum.


well said... DOWN WITH CHROME BASHERS
:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

clocker7
06-16-2015, 03:11 PM
So now CC is being compared to Seattle Slew?? C'mon man. At this stage of his life (mid 4th year), CC hasn't done squat to ever be mentioned in the same sentence with Seattle Slew. CC won the KD and the Preakness. Other than that, there is NOTHING else to hang your hat on. He has yet to beat older horses on dirt. Are the owners partially to blame? You bet. But some of this is on the horse's ability too. He's good, not great.

I never said that CC was in the same league as SS. I was making a point about human idiots who write off danger foolishly, especially those who get wound up by the shiniest new toy.

Let the horses do the talking, I say,

castaway01
06-16-2015, 03:13 PM
Chrome bashers... ZZZZZZZZZ :sleeping:

Wake up people anyone who wouldnt enjoy AP vs CC needs to get their head checked. When was the last time we saw two Derby winners race vs each other? I think that would be fantastic.

i dont know who said it but someone said something like " even when he was winning 2 legs of the triple crown i wasnt impressed" - thats just a preposterous statement.


Chrome bashers :ThmbDown: - snap out of it already I wish every big time horse like that would run at 4. You should be embarrassed at the crap your all spewing if you are fans of the sport. :blush: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

ZZZ :sleeping:

Show us where he's running...all I see is messing around in Europe and scratching with injuries. Will he run another race?

Getting all upset because we're complaining about the horse's campaign...you've got Dubai. Will he race again? How can say how great it is to see a 4-year-old running when the horse can't even get on the track?
You acting like Chrome has run some glorious 4-year-old campaign is the only delusion.

The rest of your post is just incoherent fanboy babbling.

castaway01
06-16-2015, 03:14 PM
I never said that CC was in the same league as SS. I was making a point about human idiots who write off danger foolishly, especially those who get wound up by the shiniest new toy.

Let the horses do the talking, I say,

That's been the point---Chrome's campaign is steering him far from having to do any "talking" against Pharoah or anyone else. Right now it looks like it's steering him closer to retirement than anything else. That's the frustration for those of us who like to see the horses actually do the talking.

castaway01
06-16-2015, 03:18 PM
well said... DOWN WITH CHROME BASHERS
:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

That's hilarious since you started this thread with the title "California Chrome 4YO campaign total disaster". Guess you're the head basher, or you're bipolar. Perhaps a little from each column.

horses4courses
06-16-2015, 03:18 PM
Certainly you are correct. However, I would like to see Chrome win and beat horses at his age and talent level here at home before conquering the world stage. He's not all that. He has found a way to be second much too much.

I agree with you.
He peaked in the first half of 2014, and I don't see him duplicating that.
However, he is still a very good horse who could still win nice races.

He's had two runs this year.
Got thumped by Shared Belief in the San Antonio, but he ran his race.
SB put in a huge performance that day.
Then in Dubai, he runs big again to pick up $2 million.
That, I believe, makes him the highest earning US older horse, so far.

The plan to bring him to England was stupid, really.
There is no allowing for a bruised foot - can happen anywhere at anytime.
The Arlington Mil would have been a better turf target, but that's old news.

Hopefully, they can right the ship, and get CC back on track.
The prestige, and lure of Ascot, may have been a factor.
That's over and done with, unless he races at 5.
With a bit of luck, his next race will be in the US.

mostpost
06-16-2015, 03:19 PM
Nothing wrong with going to the Dubai World Cup. but the england race was idiotic... Just ask Art Sherman what he thinks...
How is it that Art Sherman has suddenly turned into a god. Before California Chrome, I never heard of Art Sherman. Now, suddenly, he is the ultimate authority on everything.

The Shermans are comfortable in California. They are not comfortable anywhere else. That is why they object to sending him overseas.

nads1420
06-16-2015, 03:21 PM
Show us where he's running...all I see is messing around in Europe and scratching with injuries. Will he run another race?

Getting all upset because we're complaining about the horse's campaign...you've got Dubai. Will he race again? How can say how great it is to see a 4-year-old running when the horse can't even get on the track?
You acting like Chrome has run some glorious 4-year-old campaign is the only delusion.

The rest of your post is just incoherent fanboy babbling.

the people calling the shots are the people to bash not the horses ability. thats all im saying. Dubai was a fine call but he should of come back to the USA after that. fanboy? ok buddy, im just a fan of the sport in general. i like watching the superstar horses.... how many frosted threads are there or whatever momo you like. Chrome's a star and i like watching star horses... its good for the sport

nads1420
06-16-2015, 03:22 PM
That's hilarious since you started this thread with the title "California Chrome 4YO campaign total disaster". Guess you're the head basher, or you're bipolar. Perhaps a little from each column.

again bashing the decision makers, not the horses ability... nice attempted spin though.. kudos :ThmbUp:

clocker7
06-16-2015, 03:25 PM
That's been the point---Chrome's campaign is steering him far from having to do any "talking" against Pharoah or anyone else. Right now it looks like it's steering him closer to retirement than anything else. That's the frustration for those of us who like to see the horses actually do the talking.
Well, retirement might be the near-term goal ... who knows.

But what is the point of message-board lobbying at this point? Or disparagement, other than Coburn being a permanent squatter in the brains of the haters?

Chrome has been an excellent race horse. The owners parlayed a cheapo homebred into a moneybags HOY, with some impressive trophies on the shelf to boot. Let them play with their horsey, it's all gravy from here on out.

horses4courses
06-16-2015, 03:29 PM
How is it that Art Sherman has suddenly turned into a god. Before California Chrome, I never heard of Art Sherman. Now, suddenly, he is the ultimate authority on everything.

The Shermans are comfortable in California. They are not comfortable anywhere else. That is why they object to sending him overseas.

If you followed Calif racing, mostpost, you would know him.
Outside of here, he was never a household name.

He is a very affable guy. A god, or racing guru? Never.
That would be the last thing he would ever aspire to.

I'm friends with a guy here in Tahoe who goes back a long way with Art.
Back to his days as a jockey. They still talk on the phone from time to time.
Some great stories, too. :ThmbUp:

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 03:31 PM
So, you would rather see him win some lousy stakes race here
than run second in the richest race in the world?

Last I knew, purse money is the best way for owners to keep score.
If I owned a horse of that caliber, I would wish there was a Dubai WC
every month, or two, to run second in. Never needs to win again.Lousy stakes race? From where I sit, the Dubai World Cup wasn't that stellar of a field...I wouldn't deem our Grade 1s lousy by comparison...

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 03:32 PM
Chrome bashers... ZZZZZZZZZ :sleeping:

Wake up people anyone who wouldnt enjoy AP vs CC needs to get their head checked. When was the last time we saw two Derby winners race vs each other? I think that would be fantastic.

i dont know who said it but someone said something like " even when he was winning 2 legs of the triple crown i wasnt impressed" - thats just a preposterous statement.


Chrome bashers :ThmbDown: - snap out of it already I wish every big time horse like that would run at 4. You should be embarrassed at the crap your all spewing if you are fans of the sport. :blush: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

ZZZ :sleeping:Yeah...I should be the embarrassed one...

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 03:33 PM
Since when did CChrome's last few dirt races become so unimpressive? Granted, he hasn't beaten a monster like Frosted yet. But he DID run decently against Shared Belief, even though one being only a tuneup, right?

I don't understand this "unworthiness" nonsense. Or the necessity to run a methodical, tunnel-vision Game On Dude type schedule in order to please "concerned" optimalists. Why not sit back and enjoy the free-spiritedness of it all, rather than being so anal? Unpucker ... AP will get his chance to humiliate the bum.Just win baby.

What he did last year should only carry him so far with his backers...now it's getting just downright sad.

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 03:33 PM
well said... DOWN WITH CHROME BASHERS
:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:The more emoticons, the truer the statement.

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 03:35 PM
Let the horses do the talking, I say,I completely agree...and Chrome has been as silent as a church mouse (in terms of winning). One win in the past 13 months I believe...I could be wrong though.

Tom
06-16-2015, 03:39 PM
Wake up people anyone who wouldnt enjoy AP vs CC needs to get their head checked. When was the last time we saw two Derby winners race vs each other? I think that would be fantastic.

Affirmed vs Seattle Slew.
Neither of them won it.

Rex Phinney
06-16-2015, 03:41 PM
Since when did CChrome's last few dirt races become so unimpressive? Granted, he hasn't beaten a monster like Frosted yet. But he DID run decently against Shared Belief, even though one being only a tuneup, right?

I don't understand this "unworthiness" nonsense. Or the necessity to run a methodical, tunnel-vision Game On Dude type schedule in order to please "concerned" optimalists. Why not sit back and enjoy the free-spiritedness of it all, rather than being so anal? Unpucker ... AP will get his chance to humiliate the bum.

You consider races like the Big Cap, Met Mile, Stephen Foster or Gold Cup to be "tunnel vision" picks? He could have ran a couple of those and still be looking at the Pac Classic or Woodward, then the JCGC.

The only time the horse has actually been raced enough to be third off a layoff in the last year they ran a glorified county fair race at Del Mar. They then waited 10 weeks to run him again (against Shared Belief, who came in on a 5 week break having run his last over dirt, and subsequently handled CC easily). Another 7 week break before a race in Dubai. They managed to take a horse who seemed to be improving again in the fall and space his races out in a way that he wasn't going to be at his best, and that once it was over he would be wiped out again from the trip to Dubai. (At which point they lined him up for the biggest challenge of his life LOL)

Noone is "hating" on the horse, quite the contrary, I think his connections have been the only thing holding him back, they are picking races like a bunch of 3rd graders playing pin the tail on the donkey. The horse looked good enough in the BCC and the DWC, but you don't win races like that unless you are firing on all cylinders, and IMO the dipsh!ts picking his races don't have him firing on all cylinders.

Tom
06-16-2015, 03:42 PM
If anyone's 4 yo year is a bust it if Bayern.
Beat his shadow once, and then dead heated it the next time.
They should rename him....Seymour Butts.

Rex Phinney
06-16-2015, 03:43 PM
I completely agree...and Chrome has been as silent as a church mouse (in terms of winning). One win in the past 13 months I believe...I could be wrong though.

Hey now, you're not counting all the ones he won in our hearts. LOL

horses4courses
06-16-2015, 03:46 PM
Lousy stakes race? From where I sit, the Dubai World Cup wasn't that stellar of a field...I wouldn't deem our Grade 1s lousy by comparison...

No, the Dubai WC was not a stellar field.
That makes it an even smarter decision by the connections.

The horse would have had to run in, and win, at least several G1s
here in order to pull in that kind of purse money. They did good.

He wasn't going to beat SB in the SA H'cap.
They did the right thing.
Shame that Perry Martin lost his senses soon afterwards.

Grits
06-16-2015, 03:47 PM
the title "California Chrome 4YO campaign total disaster". Guess you're the head basher, or you're bipolar. Perhaps a little from each column.

Castaway, you having a bad day? This is unlike you. The name calling is suggestive of psychosis. Please don't throw out ugliness like this to others. Not anything Nads has said warrants it. This is mean. :(

DeltaLover
06-16-2015, 03:48 PM
If I can count correct, CC has only won a race out of his last six..

I really think he did not deserved to be named horse of the year and without a doubt, his best days belong in his pre-Belmont Stakes races.

CC is one of the most over rated horses of the last years and I doubt if he will ever win again against top level competition..

horses4courses
06-16-2015, 03:51 PM
If I can count correct, CC has only won a race out of his last six..

I really think he did not deserved to be named horse of the year and without a doubt, his best days belong in his pre-Belmont Stakes races.

CC is one of the most over rated horses of the last years and I doubt if he will ever win again against top level competition..

Regardless of what he ever does in the future, he is reigning HOY,
and deservedly so. What he did in the early part of the year was enough.

clocker7
06-16-2015, 03:52 PM
Some of these experts should compile their lists of competitive American dirt horses. (Throw in all the Met Mile runners to their hearts' content.) Even allow for some successful rehabs. Make a list of the "worthy" ones.

Knock yourselves out. You've piqued my curiosity.

Rex Phinney
06-16-2015, 03:53 PM
Regardless of what he ever does in the future, he is reigning HOY,
and deservedly so. What he did in the early part of the year was enough.

I'll agree with this and add that the way Bayern has looked in his last 2, noone should be drudging up the 2014 HOTY debate again....

DeltaLover
06-16-2015, 03:54 PM
Regardless of what he ever does in the future, he is reigning HOY,
and deservedly so. What he did in the early part of the year was enough.

What was that he did in the early part of the year? As far as I know, he simply ran two seconds.. Is this what you expect from a reigning HOY ?

PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 03:58 PM
I'll agree with this and add that the way Bayern has looked in his last 2, noone should be drudging up the 2014 HOTY debate again....We should be clamoring for Bayern vs. CC rather than AP vs. CC... :lol:

horses4courses
06-16-2015, 03:58 PM
What was that he did in the early part of the year? As far as I know, he simply ran two seconds.. Is this what you expect from a reigning HOY ?

He won 2014 HOY....he had a pretty good run until the Belmont.
2015 has nothing to do with it.

DeltaLover
06-16-2015, 04:07 PM
He won 2014 HOY....he had a pretty good run until the Belmont.
2015 has nothing to do with it.

I do not disagree.. My take is, that CC was a more precautions horse than his main rivals within his crop, as time went by, his superiority simply evaporated something that is clearly reflected in his past performances..

horses4courses
06-16-2015, 04:19 PM
his superiority simply evaporated something that is clearly reflected in his past performances..

You're right.
It would be long odds against him ever recapturing his best form.
Let's hope he gets the chance to attempt it, though.

DeltaLover
06-16-2015, 04:24 PM
It would be long odds against him ever recapturing his best form.
Let's hope he gets the chance to attempt it, though.

I agree that him getting back to top shape, confirming his class by a BCC win, will be a very remarkable accomplishment. I also think the odds are clearly against it.

Some_One
06-16-2015, 04:25 PM
I'll agree with this and add that the way Bayern has looked in his last 2, noone should be drudging up the 2014 HOTY debate again....

I'm sure the Main Sequence camp would like to.

horses4courses
06-16-2015, 04:30 PM
I'm sure the Main Sequence camp would like to.

The horse that would be hard pressed to make the top-10 in Europe.
He will probably collect some big checks again here this summer.

Rex Phinney
06-16-2015, 04:39 PM
I'm sure the Main Sequence camp would like to.

I'm sure they would, but it's hard to win HOTY when you can count all the races you ran on one hand.

burnsy
06-16-2015, 06:50 PM
I would never bash Chrome...he's a good race horse. But the management does seem questionable for how good this horse is. Someone wrote he's showed up every time he runs.....yeah, all of 5 times in 13 months. Dubai was a good placing, ran great, keep him on the surface and clean up here. SB is out, it is clear sailing with older and when this horse gets fit he's formidable vs. any dirt horse. Bashing this 3 ring circus is easy if one just looks at the record and the results since last year. I believe this horse could beat just about anyone here......with the right leadership. The older division is wide open and they are fiddling around in England where if he even hits the track, it will most likely be as an "also ran". If he comes back here with his tail between his legs proving nothing........its pretty sad for a horse that is this good. Maybe Dumb Ass will prove me wrong but I am really doubting that one. If you question anyone its called "bashing"???? The horse doesn't talk or make decisions but there's no way in hell anyone can convince me that they have done right by this horse since last June. There is absolutely no excuses for this horse not winning more than once in a year, when healthy. Instead he runs like every three months like that will get him anywhere? If you think other connections could not do better for this horse, you are lying to yourself.........

delsully
06-16-2015, 07:17 PM
Hey now, you're not counting all the ones he won in our hearts. LOL

This makes reading this thread worthwhile, well played Sir!

BIGTKLO
06-16-2015, 07:38 PM
I agree that the venture to England seems strange, but Perry believes he is a turf horse. I have heard that The Arlington Million is a major goal, and that Chicago is where all the horses go into quarantine. He didn't attract much, if any, attention from American breeders, so who can fault his connections. California Chrome is a real good dirt horse, and now that Shared Belief is out with his year ending injury, hopefully he will be back this fall for the Classic.

DeltaLover
06-16-2015, 07:41 PM
I agree that the venture to England seems strange, but Perry believes he is a turf horse. I have heard that The Arlington Million is a major goal, and that Chicago is where all the horses go into quarantine. He didn't attract much, if any, attention from American breeders, so who can fault his connections. California Chrome is a real good dirt horse, and now that Shared Belief is out with his year ending injury, hopefully he will be back this fall for the Classic.

I do not think he was beaten by SB in last year's BCC!

BIGTKLO
06-16-2015, 07:45 PM
CC went to Dubai to AVOID SB in the Big Cap.

Lemon Drop Husker
06-16-2015, 08:10 PM
Personally, I think California Chrome and their owners had a lot to gain by going international, be it synthetic or turf.

Chrome's pedigree in the states will never be respected. Unless he had won the Triple Crown and or Breeder's Cup last year, his numbers were what they were after his Preakness victory.

And those aren't going to be all that fantastic given his breeding lines.

Soo...., if you own the horse, what will be your main objective?

Winning money? Likely, and also putting your horse on an international stage to impress international breeders along with even impressing those state-side with wins on multiple continents, multiple surfaces, and against some of the world's best.

I haven't been CC's biggest fan (heck, actually no fan at all), but I have no problem with what the connections have done with him. I thought the Dubai trip was a bit aggressive, but a 2nd place finish there shows it worthy.

Ascot? We'll see.

In the end...; #BringChromeHome

biggestal99
06-17-2015, 06:27 AM
How is it that Art Sherman has suddenly turned into a god. Before California Chrome, I never heard of Art Sherman. Now, suddenly, he is the ultimate authority on everything.

The Shermans are comfortable in California. They are not comfortable anywhere else. That is why they object to sending him overseas.

Well i am a horseplayer and i heard of art sherman before cc, decent trainer, no stock
That he took cc with that pedigree to train, pletcher would have laughed messers colburn and perry outta the barn, speaks volumes.

Sherman is an old fashioned trainer with old fashioned ideas.

The game is played internationally these days.

Same with hollendorfer. You'll never see one of his horses racing internationally.

Give me a trainer like wesley ward everytime over these old phogies

Allan

nijinski
06-17-2015, 08:22 AM
[QUOTE=biggestal99]Well i am a horseplayer and i heard of art sherman before cc, decent trainer, no stock
That he took cc with that pedigree to train, pletcher would have laughed messers colburn and perry outta the barn, speaks volumes.

Sherman is an old fashioned trainer with old fashioned ideas.

The game is played internationally these days.

Same with hollendorfer. You'll never see one of his horses racing internationally.

Give me a trainer like wesley ward everytime over these old phogies

Allan[/Q

Lost some respect for him when " Strike The Tiger " was dropped into
a 10,000 claimer .
This horse gave him headlines . His very first Ascot winner ! co bred
by him. Could have bought him from the owners at that point .





"

Fager Fan
06-17-2015, 11:28 AM
Personally, I think California Chrome and their owners had a lot to gain by going international, be it synthetic or turf.

Chrome's pedigree in the states will never be respected. Unless he had won the Triple Crown and or Breeder's Cup last year, his numbers were what they were after his Preakness victory.

And those aren't going to be all that fantastic given his breeding lines.

Soo...., if you own the horse, what will be your main objective?

Winning money? Likely, and also putting your horse on an international stage to impress international breeders along with even impressing those state-side with wins on multiple continents, multiple surfaces, and against some of the world's best.

I haven't been CC's biggest fan (heck, actually no fan at all), but I have no problem with what the connections have done with him. I thought the Dubai trip was a bit aggressive, but a 2nd place finish there shows it worthy.

Ascot? We'll see.

In the end...; #BringChromeHome

Martin is misguided. It doesn't matter what the horse does in Europe. His pedigree and looks will never make him into a big time stallion prospect. He clearly doesn't understand that with good management, the horse could win more on the track than he could ever earn by an increase his stallion value. It's really just that simple.

Fager Fan
06-17-2015, 11:32 AM
Well i am a horseplayer and i heard of art sherman before cc, decent trainer, no stock
That he took cc with that pedigree to train, pletcher would have laughed messers colburn and perry outta the barn, speaks volumes.

Sherman is an old fashioned trainer with old fashioned ideas.

The game is played internationally these days.

Same with hollendorfer. You'll never see one of his horses racing internationally.

Give me a trainer like wesley ward everytime over these old phogies

Allan

What's so great about racing a horse in Europe? Have you seen the purses over there? They're attrocious. So unless it's worth the purse difference just for the experience (of which will cost the owner many more thousands in shipping and travel expenses for all the connections), I don't see the value.

castaway01
06-17-2015, 01:20 PM
Martin is misguided. It doesn't matter what the horse does in Europe. His pedigree and looks will never make him into a big time stallion prospect. He clearly doesn't understand that with good management, the horse could win more on the track than he could ever earn by an increase his stallion value. It's really just that simple.

Well, that's not true at all. Even an increase of $10,000 in his stud fee, if he's with 100 mares a year, is $1 million a year. A conservative 15 years at stud, that's $15 million. Which he obviously isn't winning on the track.

The crazy move was Ascot because I don't believe he's good enough to beat a Group I field there. That's what he'd have to beat to really change breeders' view of him as a stud. Now we'll see if he even races again. A waste of time and effort and money all around.

Fager Fan
06-17-2015, 01:34 PM
Well, that's not true at all. Even an increase of $10,000 in his stud fee, if he's with 100 mares a year, is $1 million a year. A conservative 15 years at stud, that's $15 million. Which he obviously isn't winning on the track.


That's not how it works. It's about his stallion prospect value and how much someone will pay to purchase him. The stallion either makes it or doesn't in the first four years (they may even give less time). The popularity of the stallion determines the stud fee they think they can get multiplied by the number of paying mares they think they can get over that time frame. The farm isn't paying the owners for what the horse could generate in years 5-15 because that's the income THEY hope to finally be making on the horse. In addition, the horse could be worth zero by that time as well.

Winning a turf race at Ascot isn't going to raise the horse's value a nickle in my opinion, but let's say it raised it by a million. He could more easily raise a million by running here, on dirt, in races over this year and next. There should be no timeline on this horse retiring (Perry is ill-advised again) as he has more to gain on the track than he will in the shed as long as he's healthy and running at the top level. Remember, he is by a dud stallion by a giveaway mare with mediocre looks at best.

biggestal99
06-18-2015, 06:27 AM
What's so great about racing a horse in Europe? Have you seen the purses over there? They're attrocious. So unless it's worth the purse difference just for the experience (of which will cost the owner many more thousands in shipping and travel expenses for all the connections), I don't see the value.

The big races in europe, asia, mideast all carry great purses, they pay the owners/connections money to race good horses, now if you talk everyday purses in the uk, well they are terrible, but big races, nice purses.

Allan

Fager Fan
06-18-2015, 07:22 AM
The big races in europe, asia, mideast all carry great purses, they pay the owners/connections money to race good horses, now if you talk everyday purses in the uk, well they are terrible, but big races, nice purses.

Allan

W have nice purses here too, and without all the expenses of traveling for the horse and connections. The only races with any real upside normally are the DWC due to the huge purses.

nads1420
06-18-2015, 09:46 AM
CC went to Dubai to AVOID SB in the Big Cap.


:rolleyes:

GaryG
06-18-2015, 10:03 AM
If he ever does run in Europe I seriously doubt that he will enhance his reputation. Then he comes home to face AP? The fat lady is in the wings. Just a shame to see a good horse managed like that.

Mystic
06-18-2015, 11:24 AM
I wonder if they will still run him in the Arlington Million if he loses the next "planned" race, the Coral Eclipse on July 4th.

nearco
06-18-2015, 01:42 PM
I wonder if they will still run him in the Arlington Million if he loses the next "planned" race, the Coral Eclipse on July 4th.

If he were to lose but run respectably, then I would think they would be emboldened to run in the Million, as the field in the Million would likely be lower quality that what he will face in the Coral Eclipse.
If he runs up the track at Sandown, then who knows, maybe they will just pull the pull on his Grasscapades and go back to Dirt.

But keep in mind that there were Australian and Japanese G1 winners running in the Prince of Wales Stakes yesterday, and they finished down the field (5th and 6th respectively). Chrome has his work cut out to win a G1 in Europe, doesn't mean he couldn't still come home and win a G1 like the Million in the US.

Rex Phinney
06-18-2015, 05:41 PM
Maybe they could wait to pick a race until they see that the horse is healed....

Just a thought.

These guys put the cart before the horse an awful lot. For example why did they even mention the Arlington Million? Wouldn't anyone with half a brain want to see how the horse does in a true G1 field over turf before proclaiming any more racing on turf?

SandyW
06-18-2015, 07:37 PM
Seems as if Graham Motion received much less criticism when he took the same route with Animal Kingdom, granted his last race was a disaster but at least the connections put him up against the best...not sure why Chrome's owners are receiving so much heat...I would argue that Chrome made Sherman and not the other way around...he wasn't complaining when he was running the horse every month and benefiting from the purses...

I have never heard of a horse making a trainer, but I have always heard of a trainer making the horse.
The trainer is the one who makes the decisons, not the horse.

NY BRED
06-19-2015, 07:47 AM
N SUMMATION(ironically one of my favorite tbreds):

CC in now managed and "trained" by DAP.

DAP called all of these wonderful moves going to Dubai and the Ascot
which, to my knowledge ,is a maneuver no American trainer has ever
elected to pursue.

DAP has effectively fired their trainer and Jockey, and placed the horse at risk.

I previously stated these moves are motivated by money, WITHOUT
regards to this wonderful horse. Richard Migliore recently commented
on Belmont Insider these moves are based on their ego without regards
to the horse.

Hopefully this garbage crew retires the horse before he breaks down and
destroys the great karma with AP whose racing career will end
after the Classic.

forced89
06-19-2015, 09:45 AM
Name of Partnership says it all!

nearco
06-19-2015, 10:09 AM
N SUMMATION(ironically one of my favorite tbreds):

CC in now managed and "trained" by DAP.

DAP called all of these wonderful moves going to Dubai and the Ascot
which, to my knowledge ,is a maneuver no American trainer has ever
elected to pursue.

DAP has effectively fired their trainer and Jockey, and placed the horse at risk.

I previously stated these moves are motivated by money, WITHOUT
regards to this wonderful horse. Richard Migliore recently commented
on Belmont Insider these moves are based on their ego without regards
to the horse.

Hopefully this garbage crew retires the horse before he breaks down and
destroys the great karma with AP whose racing career will end
after the Classic.

Why would he break down? and how are they destroying him?
Please help me understand this line of thinking.

I follow international racing, a lot. I see horses flying all over the world to race. I don't understand why people find this so weird and bizarre that Chrome should try a race in England.
In the very race that he was supposed to run in at Ascot, there was an Australian runner and a Japanese runner. Neither was a factor in the race. There was no uproar about the fact that they flew half way around the world (much farther than Chrome did) to run.
The Ramsay's ran one of their Kitten horses in the Prince of Wales Stakes a few years back. Don't remember the uproar back then. I think he finished last.

The horse's welfare is not at risk. In fact he is in a much more horse friendly environment than the dusty backside at Los Al.
Whether you think the decision to race against Europe's best middle distance horses is ill advised from a racing POV, that's a personal opinion. Perry Martin is paying the bills, he gets to make those calls. If he flops, he flops, big deal.

Coolmore sent Dylan Thomas to run in the JC Gold Cup at Belmont about 8 or 9 or so years ago. He finished last, by what 30+ lengths or something outrageous? People laughed their asses off and thought Coolmore were some dumbasses. Dylan Thomas came out the next year and ran off a string of G1 wins, including winning the Arc. The dirt experiment didn't work, major flop. They gave it shot. Didn't hurt the horse any though.

burnsy
06-19-2015, 10:30 AM
I don't know where people get this, "putting the horse at risk" crap from or something might happen to him. My opinion is they are just dullards at managing a very good race horse. One win in 13 months for a horse like this is inexcusable. Plus, the careers are usually so short why would you monkey around with something like this? Off of one "good" turf race vs. sub par competition you want to take on Free Eagle and The Grey Gatsby? At their game?

I've heard all the crappy theories about his breeding and impressing European investors and all the other nonsense. Meanwhile, this horse has 1 win and 5 races in 13 months and the clock is ticking. At this point he looks like a real world beater (lol), compared to what? ..... Back here, the waters are wide open in the older division with money flying all over the place this horse could grab and all the attention he could bring to the venues he races at......it has nothing to do with him being put at some ill conceived risk and everything to do with making money, a name and maximizing this horses small window of opportunity. There are all kinds of turf races too, if they wanted to try it. Its early still, the season can be salvaged but as every month goes by and this horse doesn't win another meaningful race the title of this thread becomes truer and truer. He hasn't won a dirt race since the Preakness for crying out loud, oh, they are managing him just wonderfully and any potential breeder is thoroughly impressed with his last year of work............. give me a break...at this point they would of gotten more if he retired after the Belmont. This is not health risk....its career decision risk....

Redboard
06-19-2015, 10:56 AM
After the BC Classic, the connections knew they didn’t have HOY locked up, so their plan was to run another race before the end of the year. Their options were three G1s : face the 3yr olds in the Hollywood Derby on turf, or face the elders on dirt in either the Clark Handicap(CD), or the Cigar Mile(AQU). Winning any of these races would probably clinch HOY. Usually those in this position opt for the Clark, it being the easiest to win if you don’t want to switch surfaces. Also, by that time they hadn’t received a big offer from either a U.S. or overseas breeder. They figured that the Hollywood Derby would kill two birds with one stone: clinch HOY and improve CC’s turf breeding prospects. They opted for the Hollywood Derby, which was a gutsy move that worked out. You have to hand it to them. They got HOY and waited for a breeding offer to come in, which didn’t happen. OK, what to do now? If they really thought that they needed more turf wins to improve the breeding payday, then keep him on turf – send him to Dubai(or wherever) but race him on turf. If that worked out, then try Europe. But unless you’re Dr Fager, trying to win G1s on dirt, then G1s on turf, in the same year is virtually impossible. Especially without an extended rest in between. Can anybody give me an example?


Still no word from their camp in the last few days, I don’t believe. Horse has already been scratched from his last two. Training him up to the Eclipse Stakes and running him there, on another track, is something people do with 10k claimers(skipping races, no workouts, run em).

tucker6
06-19-2015, 12:23 PM
But unless you’re Dr Fager, trying to win G1s on dirt, then G1s on turf, in the same year is virtually impossible. Especially without an extended rest in between. Can anybody give me an example?

Secretariat comes to mind. Won the G1 Man O' War on turf 9 days after placing second in the G1 Woodward on dirt. Both 12f races. 2:25.8 (Prove Out) in the Woodward followed by 2:24.8 in the Man O' War. On NINE days rest!!!

I'll ask a question in return. What other horse in history could have run two spectacular 12f races 9 days apart?

nearco
06-19-2015, 04:14 PM
Maybe Diva, won 10f Cox Plate and 10 days later won 2m Melbourne Cup.
So You Think won 10f Cox Plate, 7 days later won 10f MacKinnon and 4 days after that finished 3rd in 2m Melbourne Cup carrying top weight and giving away like 8 or 10lbs to the winner.
That was all in the last 10 years or so.

nearco
06-19-2015, 04:20 PM
Maybe Diva, won 10f Cox Plate and 10 days later won 2m Melbourne Cup.
So You Think won 10f Cox Plate, 7 days later won 10f MacKinnon and 4 days after that finished 3rd in 2m Melbourne Cup carrying top weight and giving away like 8 or 10lbs to the winner.
That was all in the last 10 years or so.

Actually So You Think was only giving away 3lbs to the winner, but winner was an older horse. He gave away 11lvs to runner up, also an older horse.

tucker6
06-19-2015, 04:26 PM
Maybe Diva, won 10f Cox Plate and 10 days later won 2m Melbourne Cup.
So You Think won 10f Cox Plate, 7 days later won 10f MacKinnon and 4 days after that finished 3rd in 2m Melbourne Cup carrying top weight and giving away like 8 or 10lbs to the winner.
That was all in the last 10 years or so.
impressive accomplishments as well. :ThmbUp:

RXB
06-19-2015, 04:34 PM
But unless you’re Dr Fager, trying to win G1s on dirt, then G1s on turf, in the same year is virtually impossible. Especially without an extended rest in between. Can anybody give me an example?


Off of the top of my head: Secretariat. Exceller. Lemhi Gold. John Henry. Lava Man. Wise Dan came within a whisker a few years ago. It's not all that common, but of course a lot of horses are never tried on both, they specialize on one surface or the other.

clocker7
06-20-2015, 05:04 PM
I don't know where people get this, "putting the horse at risk" crap from or something might happen to him. My opinion is they are just dullards at managing a very good race horse. One win in 13 months for a horse like this is inexcusable. Plus, the careers are usually so short why would you monkey around with something like this? Off of one "good" turf race vs. sub par competition you want to take on Free Eagle and The Grey Gatsby? At their game?

I've heard all the crappy theories about his breeding and impressing European investors and all the other nonsense. Meanwhile, this horse has 1 win and 5 races in 13 months and the clock is ticking. At this point he looks like a real world beater (lol), compared to what? ..... Back here, the waters are wide open in the older division with money flying all over the place this horse could grab and all the attention he could bring to the venues he races at......it has nothing to do with him being put at some ill conceived risk and everything to do with making money, a name and maximizing this horses small window of opportunity. There are all kinds of turf races too, if they wanted to try it. Its early still, the season can be salvaged but as every month goes by and this horse doesn't win another meaningful race the title of this thread becomes truer and truer. He hasn't won a dirt race since the Preakness for crying out loud, oh, they are managing him just wonderfully and any potential breeder is thoroughly impressed with his last year of work............. give me a break...at this point they would of gotten more if he retired after the Belmont. This is not health risk....its career decision risk....
What's with this mismanagement nonsense? Since his loss in the Belmont, this horse has been pointed toward the two biggest dirt races out there. He was in decent shape for both and ran as honestly and competitively as any dirt horse in the world. Like these keyboard trainers could have done any better, maybe eking out a win in the Classic instead of the barest of misses?

I don't know what DAP's objectives are, or in the order they sequence them. Purely economical ones? It doesn't look like they are the be-all and end-all. From afar, it looks like they are still having fun with him, treating him well, trying to determine his ultimate racing potential, paying expenses, and maybe winning a Breeders Cup race this year. And who know what for 2016.

I'm an older guy these days, and what motivated me 20-30 years ago has receded over time. Guys getting up in years have a much different outlook on life, and it wouldn't surprise me that the DAP boyz have less-than-conventional approach when it comes to their pet project. They're the ones with trophies and millions, not the knuckleheads on chat sites.

nads1420
06-22-2015, 10:27 AM
https://twitter.com/KentuckyDerbyCJ/status/612735714694926337

OTM Al
06-22-2015, 12:30 PM
Off of the top of my head: Secretariat. Exceller. Lemhi Gold. John Henry. Lava Man. Wise Dan came within a whisker a few years ago. It's not all that common, but of course a lot of horses are never tried on both, they specialize on one surface or the other.

Curlin finished 2nd sandwiched between two BC Turf winners in, I believe, the Man o' War during his 4yo campaign. Was in the paddock for that one. He looked so different than the turf runners but still gave it a good shot.

ultracapper
06-22-2015, 12:53 PM
Donald Warren's Acclimation, piloted by none other than Patrick Valenzuela. Brought a nice turf route winning streak into the Pacific Classic and took that one down too.

Steve R
06-22-2015, 01:04 PM
Secretariat comes to mind. Won the G1 Man O' War on turf 9 days after placing second in the G1 Woodward on dirt. Both 12f races. 2:25.8 (Prove Out) in the Woodward followed by 2:24.8 in the Man O' War. On NINE days rest!!!

I'll ask a question in return. What other horse in history could have run two spectacular 12f races 9 days apart?
Kelso won the 2-mile JCGC breaking the Belmont track record by three ticks and SEVEN days later ran a close second to Beau Purple in the mile-and-a-half Man o' War on soft turf while both broke the course record.

horses4courses
06-22-2015, 01:35 PM
The Eclipse Stakes is now out, and they're sending
CC home for the Arlington Million. :ThmbUp:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92663/chrome-to-skip-eclipse-and-head-home?&utm_source=DailyNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20150622

classhandicapper
06-22-2015, 01:39 PM
The Eclipse Stakes is now out, and they're sending
CC home for the Arlington Million. :ThmbUp:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92663/chrome-to-skip-eclipse-and-head-home?&utm_source=DailyNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20150622

That's what I said they should have done right from the start if they were going to insist on trying the turf to improve his value.

dilanesp
06-22-2015, 02:56 PM
Kelso won the 2-mile JCGC breaking the Belmont track record by three ticks and SEVEN days later ran a close second to Beau Purple in the mile-and-a-half Man o' War on soft turf while both broke the course record.

Kelso might be the greatest example of the horse who didn't care about surface. He was a beast on both dirt and turf. (Interestingly, one of his main rivals, Gun Bow, was as well.)

dilanesp
06-22-2015, 03:14 PM
Another one, BTW, was Round Table.

Cratos
06-22-2015, 06:17 PM
Another one, BTW, was Round Table.
And so was Big Red

dilanesp
06-22-2015, 07:22 PM
And so was Big Red

Man O' War never ran on grass.

tucker6
06-22-2015, 08:29 PM
Man O' War never ran on grass.
makes him inferior to the other Big Red, now doesn't it? :cool:

ILovetheInner
06-22-2015, 08:48 PM
makes him inferior to the other Big Red, now doesn't it? :cool:

There is very little I will say in racing that I know in my bones. One of them is that Man O'War was way more the best horse of his generation than anything I have seen. Including Secretariat. Obviously a different time and I cannot say if we had time machines and pitted the two together what might have happened with a half century more of breeding and progress, but no one put up the numbers Man O'War did. He could barely attract competitors by the time his year ended. He had 100 lengths....I assume a guess, lol! Forego is my fave but goodness gracious....giving away a 30 lb advantage? Breaking a track record by SIX seconds?

dilanesp
06-22-2015, 10:11 PM
makes him inferior to the other Big Red, now doesn't it? :cool:

There's only one "Big Red". Secretariat was called "Red" by his connections, not "Big Red".

And I agree with Ilovetheinner about the comparison between the two.

handyman1968
06-22-2015, 10:58 PM
The Eclipse Stakes is now out, and they're sending
CC home for the Arlington Million. :ThmbUp:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92663/chrome-to-skip-eclipse-and-head-home?&utm_source=DailyNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20150622

He's not gonna be ready for the Arlington Million...if the connections insisting on running I'll be more than happy to reload all my empty accounts and bet against him.

nijinski
06-30-2015, 03:13 PM
He's not gonna be ready for the Arlington Million...if the connections insisting on running I'll be more than happy to reload all my empty accounts and bet against him.

Hopefully if he's not ready they won't push him , he hasn't even left England yet . Courier journal reports he's wearing Bar Shoes right now to help .

It's unknown how long Art Sherman will keep bar shoes on California Chrome, who for now remains in England, still with a month and a half to train up to his next race.

nads1420
07-08-2015, 07:28 AM
https://twitter.com/DRFHersh/status/618622484452089856


So sad we will never get to see how good a 4 year old this horse could of been. Hes basically ruined at this point. Perry Martin is a damn fool.

Horribly underweight with a dull coat. Poor Art has his hands full...

PaceAdvantage
07-08-2015, 11:31 AM
At least they'll have more excuses for not actually winning a race...

cj
07-08-2015, 11:39 AM
At least they'll have more excuses for not actually winning a race...

He ran well in Dubai, but this whole England thing was ill conceived and turned into the disaster many expected.

Show Me the Wire
07-08-2015, 11:42 AM
California Chrome is not the only horse knocked on his ass from a trip and a race in Dubai.

lamboguy
07-08-2015, 01:05 PM
just saw him on television getting off a van. that horse looks like he has lost 250 pounds. how can that horse possibly be ready to run in a month in the Arlington Millions?

nads1420
07-08-2015, 02:05 PM
At least they'll have more excuses for not actually winning a race...


sucking at managing a horse is not an excuse its actual suckage thus they have no excuse... maybe the horse will have an excuse but horses cant speak so he wont have an excuse... Art has an excuse... but who cant root for art? poor guy, i remember when he found out the horse was going to england he look like he lost his best friend. now he comes back to art and boy does art have his hands full...

perry martin.. ugh guy dont know dick

classhandicapper
07-08-2015, 02:26 PM
If he's really still underweight and not looking good, the right move is to stop on him for a few weeks, get the weight back on, and start all over. They could still get a prep race into him sometime in September and shoot for the Classic against American Pharoah to salvage the year.

castaway01
07-08-2015, 07:33 PM
California Chrome is not the only horse knocked on his ass from a trip and a race in Dubai.

Most of them actually come home and rest up for a few months though, rather than leave their trainer and go to yet another foreign country on a waste of time pipe dream.

castaway01
07-08-2015, 07:35 PM
If he's really still underweight and not looking good, the right move is to stop on him for a few weeks, get the weight back on, and start all over. They could still get a prep race into him sometime in September and shoot for the Classic against American Pharoah to salvage the year.

Not.
Gonna.
Happen.

clocker7
07-09-2015, 09:06 AM
Is this the first instance in racing history in which a top horse had health issues that interrupted a schedule?

Some of these comments sound like that they are coming from the greenest of newbies.

clocker7
07-09-2015, 10:01 AM
He ran well in Dubai, but this whole England thing was ill conceived and turned into the disaster many expected.

Why do you say that it was ill-conceived? Do you run anything other than a fantasy stable, or have any insights about ownership from experience?

I'm sorry, I'm not getting anything other than sniping from people with zero experience in the ownership game, let alone training expertise. Now, if you can convince me that you have any hands-on background whatsoever in horse management, or knowledge about the special downside of keeping a horse in England and its perils, then I'll be all ears. Otherwise, it's all the lamest of BS and shallow regurgitation of what is posted by other dimwits on the internet.

PaceAdvantage
07-09-2015, 10:04 AM
Why do you say that it was ill-conceived? Do you run anything other than a fantasy stable, or have any insights about ownership from experience?

I'm sorry, I'm not getting anything other than sniping from people with zero experience in the ownership game, let alone training expertise. Now, if you can convince me that you have any hands-on background whatsoever in horse management, or knowledge about the special downside of keeping a horse in England and its perils, then I'll be all ears. Otherwise, it's all the lamest of BS and shallow regurgitation of what is posted by other dimwits on the internet.Why in the world would they go to the toughest turf racing on the planet? Europe?

If they wanted to go turf, why not try him here first against a salty group of turf runners? The Hollywood Derby obviously doesn't count...

mowens33
07-09-2015, 10:07 AM
Chrome was a 3 year old star in the states, and I think it would have made perfect since to stay in the states and promote North American racing. With Chrome racing in the states it would have a much better chance to be in the national headlines. If we what to promote the sport and attract new people to this game (business) we love to play we need the stars to come out here at home.
Just on man’s opinion!
Mike

clocker7
07-09-2015, 10:13 AM
Why in the world would they go to the toughest turf racing on the planet? Europe?

If they wanted to go turf, why not try him here first against a salty group of turf runners? The Hollywood Gold Cup obviously doesn't count...
From what I can tell, they figured that running Chrome against American turf runners wouldn't have established much of anything in the minds of people with international expectations--their target audience.

You yourself denigrated his sole turf win. Remember?

PaceAdvantage
07-09-2015, 10:18 AM
From what I can tell, they figured that running Chrome against American turf runners wouldn't have established much of anything in the minds of people with international expectations--their target audience.

You yourself denigrated his sole turf win. Remember?And rightly so.

Which is why I ask why they wouldn't want to run first against a saltier group of American turf runners before heading over the pond.

clocker7
07-09-2015, 10:20 AM
And rightly so.

Which is why I ask why they wouldn't want to run first against a saltier group of American turf runners before heading over the pond.
The naysayers make it sound like they sent Chrome to Mars in the hands of tranny animal-abusing vegan trainer looking for his/her first win.

cj
07-09-2015, 10:23 AM
Why do you say that it was ill-conceived? Do you run anything other than a fantasy stable, or have any insights about ownership from experience?

I'm sorry, I'm not getting anything other than sniping from people with zero experience in the ownership game, let alone training expertise. Now, if you can convince me that you have any hands-on background whatsoever in horse management, or knowledge about the special downside of keeping a horse in England and its perils, then I'll be all ears. Otherwise, it's all the lamest of BS and shallow regurgitation of what is posted by other dimwits on the internet.

I don't run any fantasy stable.

It was ill conceived because he was never going to win in England. I don't have to run a stable to know that. If money was no object, then I guess it was a good idea.

clocker7
07-09-2015, 10:25 AM
I don't run any fantasy stable.

It was ill conceived because he was never going to win in England. I don't have to run a stable to know that. If money was no object, then I guess it was a good idea.
Your opinion is noted. I'll take it for what it's worth, along with the rest of the others.

cj
07-09-2015, 10:41 AM
Your opinion is noted. I'll take it for what it's worth, along with the rest of the others.

As I will yours that it was a great idea.

Mystic
07-09-2015, 10:47 AM
He might be a decent trainer, but the horse never looked in good shape when he had him. Every picture I saw of Chrome while he was there he looked to be on the gaunt side. I can understand that happening after Dubai, but he didn't appear to me to be putting any weigh back on.

clocker7
07-09-2015, 10:49 AM
As I will yours that it was a great idea.
I never said it was a "great" idea ... I wouldn't pretend to be an expert willing to propound on the ups/downs of testing the abilities of a potential stallion, or what I would do with a Kentucky Derby and Preakness trophy replica on the mantel, etc.

All I do is salute the idea of being a little creative in this SPORT, and not restrict oneself to a button-down wealth management approach to the GAME. Imo, that outlook is more suitable for numbers-crunching anal-ists bent on maximizing their returns on Wall Street or looking to better their real estate portfolios.

nearco
07-09-2015, 10:55 AM
Saying the English adventure was ill-conceived is a bit harsh. Do I think he would have held his own against Free Eagle/Grey Gatsby/Golden Horn? No, probably not. But then again, you don't know till you try. I respect and admire the decision to give it a shot.

Look at the reverse.... plenty of Euro horses have taken a shot at big American dirt races. Many have come up short, some embarrassingly so (remember Dylan Thomas in the JCGC?... btw, that didn't affect his subsequent turf form, he went on to win 5-6 G1s including the Arc afterwards). Others have gone way beyond expections... Arcangues, Jolypha, Swain, Sahkee.
You don't know till you try.

clocker7
07-09-2015, 11:03 AM
Saying the English adventure was ill-conceived is a bit harsh. Do I think he would have held his own against Free Eagle/Grey Gatsby/Golden Horn? No, probably not. But then again, you don't know till you try. I respect and admire the decision to give it a shot.

Look at the reverse.... plenty of Euro horses have taken a shot at big American dirt races. Many have come up short, some embarrassingly so (remember Dylan Thomas in the JCGC?... btw, that didn't affect his subsequent turf form, he went on to win 5-6 G1s including the Arc afterwards). Others have gone way beyond expections... Arcangues, Jolypha, Swain, Sahkee.
You don't know till you try.
You are being too logical and reasonable here.

No, to be a self-appointed expert, one must be ultra-conservative with a horse, despite the fact that it has been successful and already established a glowing dirt resume.

IOW, Chrome should have never been sent to Dubai, let alone sent to animal-unfriendly England. No, he should have been safely entered in American events, either in CA or in turf races against 3rd tier competition, in the hope that he might have fooled potential breeders of his worth.

Those stupid owners ... what were they thinking ... the wealth of wisdom that they overlooked :lol: :lol: :lol:

cj
07-09-2015, 11:10 AM
I never said it was a "great" idea ... I wouldn't pretend to be an expert willing to propound on the ups/downs of testing the abilities of a potential stallion, or what I would do with a Kentucky Derby and Preakness trophy replica on the mantel, etc.

All I do is salute the idea of being a little creative in this SPORT, and not restrict oneself to a button-down wealth management approach to the GAME. Imo, that outlook is more suitable for numbers-crunching anal-ists bent on maximizing their returns on Wall Street or looking to better their real estate portfolios.

This is a far different argument than just mocking people for saying it was a bad idea. For the record, I said this would not turn out well when the trip was announced, not afterwards.

I'm all for sporting. I just think you can be sporting and still be wise. I didn't see that here.

chenoa
07-09-2015, 11:12 AM
You are being too logical and reasonable here.

No, to be a self-appointed expert, one must be ultra-conservative with a horse, despite the fact that it has been successful and already established a glowing dirt resume.

IOW, Chrome should have never been sent to Dubai, let alone sent to animal-unfriendly England. No, he should have been safely entered in American events, either in CA or in turf races against 3rd tier competition, in the hope that he might have fooled potential breeders of his worth.

Those stupid owners ... what were they thinking ... the wealth of wisdom that they overlooked :lol: :lol: :lol:

When Chrome is about 15 lengths behind at the 1/4 pole in Arlington just pull him up Victor and save the embarrassment. :lol: :lol: :lol:

clocker7
07-09-2015, 11:12 AM
This is a far different argument than just mocking people for saying it was a bad idea. For the record, I said this would not turn out well when the trip was announced, not afterwards.

I'm all for sporting. I just think you can be sporting and still be wise. I didn't see that here.
So you foresaw the hoof bruise, too? Wow. Nostradamus.

clocker7
07-09-2015, 11:17 AM
When Chrome is about 15 lengths behind at the 1/4 pole in Arlington just pull him up Victor and save the embarrassment. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Horse Racing 101: ownership is an excercise in self-flagellation. Unless one is in it for fun reasons, it is money pit like no other. IIRC, the ROI is about 50 cents to the dollar, tops.

Bash DAP all you want, but they have outperformed a lot of other business-savvy guys that thought that they could beat the game. Not to mention online yo-yos that whizz away their minimum-wage checks in frustration.

SandyW
07-09-2015, 11:41 AM
Horse Racing 101:
Bash DAP all you want, but they have outperformed a lot of other business-savvy guys that thought that they could beat the game. Not to mention online yo-yos that whizz away their minimum-wage checks in frustration.

Yes, but when you are lucky enough to hit a home run with a horse, don't turn it into a single by sticking your no knowledge head into the mix.
Leave your trainer alone, he made your horse what he was.
DAP is a perfect name for these two.

cj
07-09-2015, 11:45 AM
Yes, but when you are lucky enough to hit a home run with a horse, don't turn it into a single by sticking your no knowledge head into the mix.

This is the perfect analogy.

raybo
07-09-2015, 02:28 PM
Agree, Sherman didn't even really want to go to Dubai in the first place, and he sure didn't want CC to remain overseas after Dubai. They accomplished something in Dubai, a 2nd place and a couple million dollars. I suppose their next thing was to show the Europeans that CC could beat their best turf horses, on their own turf (yeah right) hoping to increase his worldwide appeal regarding future breeding profits, and maybe garner a substantial breeding contract from among the non-US breeders(?). I honestly have no idea what they had in their minds after the Dubai race.

Rex Phinney
07-09-2015, 06:34 PM
Horse Racing 101: ownership is an excercise in self-flagellation. Unless one is in it for fun reasons, it is money pit like no other. IIRC, the ROI is about 50 cents to the dollar, tops.

Bash DAP all you want, but they have outperformed a lot of other business-savvy guys that thought that they could beat the game. Not to mention online yo-yos that whizz away their minimum-wage checks in frustration.

They haven't "outperformed" anyone, they hit the lottery. They got a one in a million horse. Then much like people that hit the lottery, they managed to screw it up royally. They started making decisions like they knew anything at all about horse racing.

Somehow taking a horse that was talented and seems to have some good running ahead of him and managed only 5 starts in the last 13 months. The single move of running him off the layoff in Pennsylvania when only a total Dumbass would put him there, says all you need to know about them.

Funny as it is I don't think Coburn has anything todo with the race selection, his only error was drinking too much one day at Belmont and going on camera, other than that I think Martin is calling all the shots, he wants to prove he is smarter than everyone else instead of just admitting he hit the lottery and being grateful to the game for it.

tucker6
07-09-2015, 06:41 PM
Rex with the post of the day. :ThmbUp:

nads1420
07-09-2015, 10:21 PM
Funny as it is I don't think Coburn has anything todo with the race selection, his only error was drinking too much one day at Belmont and going on camera, other than that I think Martin is calling all the shots, he wants to prove he is smarter than everyone else instead of just admitting he hit the lottery and being grateful to the game for it.



:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

couldnt say it better myself. nothing wrong with Coburn, Art, or the Horse.. Perry Martin is cancer

clocker7
07-10-2015, 04:41 PM
They haven't "outperformed" anyone, they hit the lottery. They got a one in a million horse. Then much like people that hit the lottery, they managed to screw it up royally. They started making decisions like they knew anything at all about horse racing.

Somehow taking a horse that was talented and seems to have some good running ahead of him and managed only 5 starts in the last 13 months. The single move of running him off the layoff in Pennsylvania when only a total Dumbass would put him there, says all you need to know about them.

Funny as it is I don't think Coburn has anything todo with the race selection, his only error was drinking too much one day at Belmont and going on camera, other than that I think Martin is calling all the shots, he wants to prove he is smarter than everyone else instead of just admitting he hit the lottery and being grateful to the game for it.
Martin is a business guy whose acumen allowed him to enter the game on the ownership level. Something that is lacking in 99% of the nincompoops that are ragging on him today.

He has objectives that sail over your head. Sure, he could have stayed at home in CA, racking up a few hundred K at a time, adding lesser trophies to his resume. And so? Martin has two classic ones, along with a HOY. Like staying stateside would have pacified the haters? All they would have done is ragged anyway, blathering about Shared Belief's absence blah blah blah.

letswastemoney
07-10-2015, 04:46 PM
I get the feeling Love the Chase is going to be one of those dams that pumps out winner after winner.

It's usually not an accident. Giacomo's family was probably laughed at when he won, but then Set Them Free pumped out Tiago and Stanwyck among others.

Mining My Own had Dullahan after Mine That Bird.

California Chrome's little sister Hope's Love ran 2nd in her career debut. I think she will win a few races before she's done. Maybe some stakes races.

clocker7
07-10-2015, 04:51 PM
DAP guys have a champion that was the goal of every true horseman: a homebred. Not some yearling purchase that any jillionaire could purchase with enough of a bankroll.

It was a bragging point, regardless of the century. Anybody with a sense of history about the sport would appreciate. Kudos to them.

Rex Phinney
07-10-2015, 05:40 PM
He has objectives that sail over your head.

You don't know the first thing about me so I'm not entirely sure why you decided to make such a personal statement there.

Perry Martin hit the lottery plain and simple, His absolute refusal to admit this fact and instead claim he is smarter than those who have bred and owned horses for eons is what makes people dislike him so much.

He did nothing but spew garbage about Del Mar and their management last summer when he (publicly :() chose to try and force them to pay to parade his horse. He belittled them by saying they wouldn't have any races big enough for his horse to run in until the Breeders Cup was there. Then 4 months later he ran his horse there. What a genius this guy is......

What have they done to invest in any new horses? How have they used the success of their homebred to parlay it into more involvement in racing? What have they done to in any way better racing besides try at every turn to squeeze every drop of money out of their colt?

Perry Martin started out so proud that he bred a Kentucky Derby winner for $12,000, he ended up scratching and clawing at pipe dream races so he could get the same crazy high breeding prices he once scoffed at. He should have been running in the Big Cap and the Met Mile, maybe the Pacific Classic or the Woodward. He should be grateful to the racing gods for the colt they gifted him and to the fans for all those dollar bills in his pockets.

Fager Fan
07-10-2015, 08:08 PM
Martin is a business guy whose acumen allowed him to enter the game on the ownership level. Something that is lacking in 99% of the nincompoops that are ragging on him today.

He has objectives that sail over your head. Sure, he could have stayed at home in CA, racking up a few hundred K at a time, adding lesser trophies to his resume. And so? Martin has two classic ones, along with a HOY. Like staying stateside would have pacified the haters? All they would have done is ragged anyway, blathering about Shared Belief's absence blah blah blah.

He took a cheap mare, bred it to a cheap stallion, and got seriously lucky. No great business acumen allowed him to afford that low level of ownership with a partner.

He has no concept whatsoever about making a stallion. No turf win is going to make this horse more valuable as a stallion prospect. America likes dirt, and Japan likes dirt. He has ZERO appeal with that pedigree as a stallion in Europe. He has been on a fool's errand ever since he sent the horse to Europe.

burnsy
07-11-2015, 09:21 AM
Martin is a business guy whose acumen allowed him to enter the game on the ownership level. Something that is lacking in 99% of the nincompoops that are ragging on him today.

He has objectives that sail over your head. Sure, he could have stayed at home in CA, racking up a few hundred K at a time, adding lesser trophies to his resume. And so? Martin has two classic ones, along with a HOY. Like staying stateside would have pacified the haters? All they would have done is ragged anyway, blathering about Shared Belief's absence blah blah blah.

I kind of like the horse. He's good enough to win at a rate way more than he does. Great acumen, this horse is under performing at a remarkable rate. HOY, great objectives, over peoples head? What are they exactly? A race every 6 months? You gotta be kidding me. From where I'm sitting the title of this thread becomes more accurate by the day. He can redeem himself by winning some races.....any races. I'll admit there are some haters, I've heard it too, but some of the supporters (like you) are just as much out to lunch on this.....because this horse has barely touched the surface on what he could really do.......he needs to rack up a few hundred k at a time, that's what good horses do.

If he does all those things you claim......I'll admit I'm wrong......I know at this point the odds are in my favor because this horse has run two good races in 14 months. Hey, I heard Baffert and Zayat were shipping American Pharoah to England, they don't want the Haskell's money its not glamorous enough.......... :lol: What's a few hundred thousand at a time? Give me a break.

nads1420
07-12-2015, 06:29 PM
California Chrome out of Arlington Million with Cannon Bone inflammation. my guess he never runs again....

ArlJim78
07-12-2015, 06:30 PM
per tvg on twitter,
inflamed cannon bone, out of the Million, out for the year and likely won't race again.

Show Me the Wire
07-12-2015, 06:31 PM
California Chrome out of Arlington Million with Cannon Bone inflammation. my guess he never runs again....

Heard the breaking news on tvg, explains a lot about his 4YO campaign.

Rex Phinney
07-12-2015, 07:15 PM
Never once had a pimple on him in two years of training with Art & Alan.

Maybe now Perry Martin can go back to mouth breathing and spending all that money he made on Twinkies and Cupcakes

nads1420
07-12-2015, 07:16 PM
Thanks for the memories Chrome. Pounded his Derby win and made a killing. One of the great 3 year old seasons this millennium. Sucks his 4 year old season went to shit...

nads1420
07-12-2015, 07:17 PM
Never once had a pimple on him in two years of training with Art & Alan.

Maybe now Perry Martin can go back to mouth breathing and spending all that money he made on Twinkies and Cupcakes

or what he said ... lol

nads1420
07-12-2015, 07:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2j1jfCuNOs

Psychotic Parakeet
07-12-2015, 07:38 PM
I have a feeling Karma struck out the owners on this one. First strike was making them look foolish when they said they'll never be another Triple Crown winner - and then along came American Pharoah. Second strike was finding a problem right before debuting in England. Third strike... injury. If you want to count being beat by a lesser-known horse in Dubai, and then getting beat easily by Shared Belief earlier in the year, add that on too.

Art knew what he had and what was best for the horse. Too bad the owners' didn't listen to him. There is a reason why they are called Dumbass Partners.

letswastemoney
07-12-2015, 07:52 PM
Heard the breaking news on tvg, explains a lot about his 4YO campaign.Explains what? He ran 2nd to the horse many considered best in America and then ran 2nd in the Dubai World Cup. It's like he wasn't allowed to lose or else people would question if something was wrong.

I've never seen a horse criticized so much for finishing 2nd in races since Rachel Alexandra in 2010.

Show Me the Wire
07-12-2015, 08:13 PM
Explains what? He ran 2nd to the horse many considered best in America and then ran 2nd in the Dubai World Cup. It's like he wasn't allowed to lose or else people would question if something was wrong.

I've never seen a horse criticized so much for finishing 2nd in races since Rachel Alexandra in 2010.


Explains the debacle England turned out to be, the weight loss etc. I have not criticized California Chrome in any thread or knocked his connections. You either have me confused with someone else or you are being overly sensitive to benign comments.

letswastemoney
07-12-2015, 08:34 PM
Explains the debacle England turned out to be, the weight loss etc. I have not criticized California Chrome in any thread or knocked his connections. You either have me confused with someone else or you are being overly sensitive to benign comments.
Except it wasn't a debacle. Horses get injured no matter where they are.

Most racing fans in general were overly sensitive and critical about his Europe trip and why? Other Americans do it every year and no one mentions a word.

castaway01
07-12-2015, 08:50 PM
Explains what? He ran 2nd to the horse many considered best in America and then ran 2nd in the Dubai World Cup. It's like he wasn't allowed to lose or else people would question if something was wrong.

I've never seen a horse criticized so much for finishing 2nd in races since Rachel Alexandra in 2010.

Oh please---it was the total mismanagement and ruination of the horse's career SINCE then that we've rightfully criticized. Now he's done so there's nothing left to criticize. Pathetic ownership and training, just pathetic.

castaway01
07-12-2015, 08:51 PM
Except it wasn't a debacle. Horses get injured no matter where they are.

Most racing fans in general were overly sensitive and critical about his Europe trip and why? Other Americans do it every year and no one mentions a word.

Because he left his trainer to run in a race he had no chance of winning, for no reason, got hurt, got hurt again, lost weight, plans got vague, and it was clear the horse would never run again. Other than that, it was brilliant stuff.

And tell us about all the Derby winners who were sent over to Royal Ascot to give turf a shot...acting like this was a normal situation in racing is just clueless on your part.

castaway01
07-12-2015, 08:54 PM
Thanks for the memories Chrome. Pounded his Derby win and made a killing. One of the great 3 year old seasons this millennium. Sucks his 4 year old season went to shit...

Got a redboard and ridiculous exaggeration in the same post...great work on your part.

castaway01
07-12-2015, 08:57 PM
I never said it was a "great" idea ... I wouldn't pretend to be an expert willing to propound on the ups/downs of testing the abilities of a potential stallion, or what I would do with a Kentucky Derby and Preakness trophy replica on the mantel, etc.

All I do is salute the idea of being a little creative in this SPORT, and not restrict oneself to a button-down wealth management approach to the GAME. Imo, that outlook is more suitable for numbers-crunching anal-ists bent on maximizing their returns on Wall Street or looking to better their real estate portfolios.

So "pissing away a great horse's few remaining races" and then, you know, not actually running them is "creative" to you? The rest of your gibberish post aside, what wisdom was there in any of these actions?

letswastemoney
07-12-2015, 09:06 PM
Because he left his trainer to run in a race he had no chance of winning, for no reason, got hurt, got hurt again, lost weight, plans got vague, and it was clear the horse would never run again. Other than that, it was brilliant stuff.

And tell us about all the Derby winners who were sent over to Royal Ascot to give turf a shot...acting like this was a normal situation in racing is just clueless on your part.
I don't see what difference it makes if he's a Derby winner or not.

I only wrote other Americans have gone over. Verrazano even ran well in most of his Europe starts and he wasn't the best American. Whether Chrome would have run well or not was a guess. No one can say for sure because he didn't run.

I wouldn't call people and their ideas clueless for having a different opinion, but thanks for suggesting I'm being clueless.

westny
07-12-2015, 09:18 PM
Never once had a pimple on him in two years of training with Art & Alan.

Maybe now Perry Martin can go back to mouth breathing and spending all that money he made on Twinkies and Cupcakes

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

lamboguy
07-12-2015, 09:48 PM
the only thing i can say is that the horse deserved better

Stillriledup
07-12-2015, 09:52 PM
Never once had a pimple on him in two years of training with Art & Alan.

Maybe now Perry Martin can go back to mouth breathing and spending all that money he made on Twinkies and Cupcakes

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mouthbreather

tucker6
07-12-2015, 09:55 PM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mouthbreather
20 WORDS RELATED TO MOUTHBREATHER
dumbass

cannot make this stuff up...

chadk66
07-12-2015, 09:58 PM
that's the beauty of boards like this. we can all play arm chair quarterback. but when we own a horse like that and are paying the bills we can decide what the right route for a horse is. they chose a different route than normal. I give them credit for going against the norm. When you win a derby and the preakness that gives you the right to do whatever the hell you want with the horse in regards where and when to race. none of us will have that pleasure. that horse has nothing to prove to anybody nor do the owners.

chadk66
07-12-2015, 10:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2j1jfCuNOsthese guys are complete idiots

horses4courses
07-12-2015, 10:19 PM
that's the beauty of boards like this. we can all play arm chair quarterback. but when we own a horse like that and are paying the bills we can decide what the right route for a horse is. they chose a different route than normal. I give them credit for going against the norm. When you win a derby and the preakness that gives you the right to do whatever the hell you want with the horse in regards where and when to race. none of us will have that pleasure. that horse has nothing to prove to anybody nor do the owners.

This :ThmbUp:

Stillriledup
07-12-2015, 10:53 PM
that's the beauty of boards like this. we can all play arm chair quarterback. but when we own a horse like that and are paying the bills we can decide what the right route for a horse is. they chose a different route than normal. I give them credit for going against the norm. When you win a derby and the preakness that gives you the right to do whatever the hell you want with the horse in regards where and when to race. none of us will have that pleasure. that horse has nothing to prove to anybody nor do the owners.

But isn't the right route to actually race?

JustRalph
07-12-2015, 11:08 PM
Sherman's comments are key, if you read between the lines. I think what occurred was tantamount to firing him.

I really liked these guys early on. They ended living up to their name, unfortunately

mostpost
07-12-2015, 11:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2j1jfCuNOs
Loved this quote, "It's possible he does not race again, if he is retired to stud"
well, duh!! I think that is true of every horse whether injured or not. If they are retired to stud, they don't race.

It seems as if this is an injury which can be overcome with rest and treatment. I would hope they do not make a hasty decision on retirement.

raybo
07-12-2015, 11:15 PM
All I can say is that they were warned. Art Sherman knew the horse and what was best for him and was ignored, basically. Now, look what they have. Sure hindsight is 20/20 but there was a lot of foresight expressed before the trip to Dubai, too. You take a horse out of its comfort zone for too long and nothing good can come from it. That is just common sense, IMO. It's a shame, I was not much of a CC fan, but he definitely had some talent, and I would have loved to see him continue racing here in the States. What a waste.

ultracapper
07-12-2015, 11:31 PM
How many times have we heard over the years about owners that get the taste of the real big success for the first time, like the CC connections, and all the sudden they are smarter than their trainer. It's the Jerry Jones affliction.

Robert Fischer
07-12-2015, 11:37 PM
Hope the injury is not painful to the horse. Looked like he came home in poor physical condition. Glad to see he gets a rest, rather than an ill-advised start.

westny
07-12-2015, 11:42 PM
All I can say is that they were warned. Art Sherman knew the horse and what was best for him and was ignored, basically. Now, look what they have. Sure hindsight is 20/20 but there was a lot of foresight expressed before the trip to Dubai, too. You take a horse out of its comfort zone for too long and nothing good can come from it. That is just common sense, IMO. It's a shame, I was not much of a CC fan, but he definitely had some talent, and I would have loved to see him continue racing here in the States. What a waste.

Sums up the CC saga perfectly :ThmbUp:

And that "pending" stud deal...down the drain. Horse lost value as a stud.
Apropos name PAD. Dissed Sherman in the process of ruining CC's career since Sheman was the key reason for CC's success in the first place.

menifee
07-12-2015, 11:49 PM
Sherman's comments are key, if you read between the lines. I think what occurred was tantamount to firing him.

I really liked these guys early on. They ended living up to their name, unfortunately

I don't really think you need to read between the lines with Sherman's comments. Pretty clear what he thinks.

These owners overplayed their hand - that is for sure. I don't know why they were so focused on racing him to increase his stud value. Did they really think winning those races in Europe or the Arlington Million was going to overcome his pedigree issues?

With that being said, I do appreciate that they continued to run him after the Belmont last year. Most Derby horses just disappear. They kept going with him and it led to some thrilling races. His race against Shared Belief this year was awesome even though I think they and the trainer knew he was not as good as Shared Belief. They could have ducked him, but did not. They certainly made mistakes, but I would rather have owners like these than those that wrap them in bubble wrap after the Triple Crown series.

mostpost
07-13-2015, 12:06 AM
Because he left his trainer to run in a race he had no chance of winning,
How do you know he had no chance of winning? Are you clairvoyant? Did they run the race in secret?

for no reason,
Except the best reason of all; to test the horse against the best.



got hurt, got hurt again, lost weight, plans got vague, and it was clear the horse would never run again. Other than that, it was brilliant stuff.
Well, you got that part right. Except you didn't. The horse could have gotten hurt anywhere. It had nothing to do with him being in England. Unless you think horses only get bruised feet in England.

And tell us about all the Derby winners who were sent over to Royal Ascot to give turf a shot...acting like this was a normal situation in racing is just clueless on your part.

Omaha. The horse, not the city. Went to England in the thirties. Ran four times and won twice. Finished second by a nose in the Gold Cup at Ascot. But so what if it isn't normal. The owners made a sporting decision to do something different. It didn't work out through no fault of theirs, but I give them high marks for trying something out of the ordinary.

SuperPickle
07-13-2015, 12:57 AM
I'm sorry but Perry Martin is the literal definition of a bad owner.

When his horse was a nobody running against no bodies he listened to Art Sherman. Art Sherman crafted this horse from a cal bred going 5 furlongs to a derby winner. This wasn't a horse who broke his maiden by 10 in 1:09. This was a horse a guy developed.

On top of it Sherman convinces them to run in the Hollywood Derby to get the HOF award and it works. Coburn and Martin had already decided to end his year.

Then in his four year old year Martin decides he will personally make all decisions. He overrules Coburn. Fires Sherman. And crafts a plan around not what's best for the horse but what maximizes his breeding rights. At 4 the horse became a business not a racehorse.

Oh not only is Perry Martin a crappy owner, he's dumb. Even if he won in England or won the Million the Blue Bloods aren't sending their Mares to a poorly bred horse owned by two guys from CA. He was trying to do something that was impossible. He was never going to get some $50,000 stud fee not matter what the horse did.

SmartyParty
07-13-2015, 01:12 AM
I'm sorry but Perry Martin is the literal definition of a bad owner.

When his horse was a nobody running against no bodies he listened to Art Sherman. Art Sherman crafted this horse from a cal bred going 5 furlongs to a derby winner. This wasn't a horse who broke his maiden by 10 in 1:09. This was a horse a guy developed.

On top of it Sherman convinces them to run in the Hollywood Derby to get the HOF award and it works. Coburn and Martin had already decided to end his year.

Then in his four year old year Martin decides he will personally make all decisions. He overrules Coburn. Fires Sherman. And crafts a plan around not what's best for the horse but what maximizes his breeding rights. At 4 the horse became a business not a racehorse.

Oh not only is Perry Martin a crappy owner, he's dumb. Even if he won in England or won the Million the Blue Bloods aren't sending their Mares to a poorly bred horse owned by two guys from CA. He was trying to do something that was impossible. He was never going to get some $50,000 stud fee not matter what the horse did.


Agreed!

Fager Fan
07-13-2015, 07:15 AM
Why would anyone agree to running him in Europe in the biggest races when he had not been tested prior to determine that he would be competitive?

It would've made sense for Wise Dan, but not CC.

It was a bad decision, and then the new trainer overloaded his bone trying to get him to the race and now he's out the rest of the year.

It's sad for the horse. Once Perry involved himself, the horse never won another race.

SuperPickle
07-13-2015, 08:21 AM
Here's the most fascinating part about yesterday's news. They announced he's done for 2015 and "might" be retired. They can't even retire him because they have no stallion deal in place. To retire him you have to announce where he's going.

The reality is there's simply no market for this horse's bloodline. Lucky Pulpit still stands in CA for $10,000. CC's success only moved the fee up to $10,000 and no KY farm went after him.

Lucky Pulpit hasn't even sired another millionaire. His second best son is probably Rousing Sermon.

Frost king
07-13-2015, 09:07 AM
Like I said earlier, they are going to have to do what Ramsey did with Kitten's Joy, and create their own market. Even then, they don't have the deep pockets that Ramsey has. Plus the only Kitten Joy's that run are his own.

Fager Fan
07-13-2015, 09:16 AM
Here's the most fascinating part about yesterday's news. They announced he's done for 2015 and "might" be retired. They can't even retire him because they have no stallion deal in place. To retire him you have to announce where he's going.

The reality is there's simply no market for this horse's bloodline. Lucky Pulpit still stands in CA for $10,000. CC's success only moved the fee up to $10,000 and no KY farm went after him.

Lucky Pulpit hasn't even sired another millionaire. His second best son is probably Rousing Sermon.

Perry never understood that the horse was worth more on the track than in the shed. He needed to have accepted that his horse would retire to a modest stud deal, then go out and win as many trophies and purses as possible.

I understand that even the best and wisest intentions could result in an injured horse, but when the horse has been mismanaged this way, it's impossible to not lay the blame on the manager. This was a very sound horse until he was put in a foreign country running miles over turf trying to make a race.

forced89
07-13-2015, 09:23 AM
I couldn't have said it better!

burnsy
07-13-2015, 10:27 AM
So "pissing away a great horse's few remaining races" and then, you know, not actually running them is "creative" to you? The rest of your gibberish post aside, what wisdom was there in any of these actions?

No wisdom at all.......but some will defend bad judgment just to stir the pot, especially on the internet. Even after the entire episode ends in the debacle many pretty much knew it would. I'm not saying I knew this horse would get hurt, no one ever knows, but the writing was on the wall where this was going to end up. It never sounded like the real trainer was onboard.....hell, why listen to him? He's only got more experience than all those knuckle heads put together.

Plus, your point about his few remaining races is just common sense and I called it his "window of opportunity" in another post. These horses now experience very finite careers. If someone has a good one, they better make it count because these horses are lucky to run 20 races to 25 races....that's if they race at 4.....which many do not even make that. This horse was not Verrazano, he actually won big time races here. This whole "crusade" was a big time gamble with a star race horse. They might as well hit the bottle like it was Belmont day all over again........because their 20/20 "creative vision" just got a real good race horse burned........maybe, he'll be back if they are lucky enough to race him again....I highly doubt that, but if it happens. They should really consider listening to the real trainer. People can say what they want, I kind of go by what actually happens......and many, many people saw this one coming. Then you got others that live in dream land....... Chrome is fine, he came in second twice as a 4 yo and all you criticizers are foolish....That's great! Whens his next start??????? :bang: Good call by the original poster...Total Disaster!

RacingFan1992
07-13-2015, 11:33 AM
Do you think that had Chrome not lost the Belmont and won the Triple Crown do you think they would have taken him on this crazy ass campaign all across the world? He raced on dirt 4 times and turf once since the Belmont yet he only won on turf in the Hollywood Derby. Since he won on turf, is that the reason they seemed to push more in that direction rather than dirt since he last raced after the Belmont?

cj
07-13-2015, 11:34 AM
Perry never understood that the horse was worth more on the track than in the shed.

Bingo!

Fingal
07-13-2015, 11:55 AM
Do you think that had Chrome not lost the Belmont and won the Triple Crown do you think they would have taken him on this crazy ass campaign all across the world? He raced on dirt 4 times and turf once since the Belmont yet he only won on turf in the Hollywood Derby. Since he won on turf, is that the reason they seemed to push more in that direction rather than dirt since he last raced after the Belmont?

Of course they would have. You have to consider that majority owner Perry Martin- the horse has already proved he can win at classic distances on the dirt, now I need to prove he can do it on turf too. He thought this turf campaign would make him more desirable to European breeders.

RacingFan1992
07-13-2015, 11:58 AM
Of course they would have. You have to consider that majority owner Perry Martin- the horse has already proved he can win at classic distances on the dirt, now I need to prove he can do it on turf too. He thought this turf campaign would make him more desirable to European breeders.

Ah ok. Now I see why they were doing it. The Dirt breeders might not be biting at their bait but if he won on turf maybe connections from overseas might take interest. It all is clear now.

burnsy
07-13-2015, 12:13 PM
Who knows...he won zero dirt races since then and he's a superior dirt horse. So, he's been mishandled for months even before the "Europe experiment". That's why the more experienced people listen to their trainers and take a couple easy routes along the way, get a win or two under the belt and build confidence/stamina. They played like this horse was "too good" for that, big mistake. Do people think AP is taking the Haskell because its the most difficult, glamorous race to come back in? Hell no, they are using good judgment and building him back up for the tough stuff. Winning a stakes race doesn't have to be a "derby" or some "classic" every start.

With the shortage of good older horses and the injury to Shared Belief....the US stakes map was wide open for CC to conquer. He could of cleaned up on either coast with either the Whitney, Woodward or the Pacific Classic in his sights......and the JGC or the Awesome Again (if that's what its still called) ....this country was his oyster this year and they pissed it away......I'll give their plan an "A" for creativity and an "F" for racing reality.....because in reality this horse had very few starts left for all the glory (marbles) and type he could gotten. Instead its the "goose egg" for 2015........because as one of their "kooky fans" posted on here....."Who wants to win a few hundred thousand here and there along the way?" Any one that builds up a good race horse to the bigger races, especially after he traveled to Dubai....that's who. You know, like the most experienced handlers usually do and its only worked that way for 150 years......... :rolleyes:

Frost king
07-13-2015, 12:34 PM
These guys were just simply too GREEDY! Instead of taking small bites of the apple and going slow, they decided to shove the whole thing in their mouths and choke on it. This horse could have been another Skip Away. Modestly bred, that won a whole whack of races and money, and then retired to a modest stud career. But no, they wanted to make sure they got Big Money for the Cal-bred. There is a reason why his Sire stands in California. They were delusional enough to believe, if it wasn't for the system, and the Blue-bloods, they were denied their Triple Crown. So in their own little world, Chrome won the Triple Crown. That is the way they have been acting ever since the Belmont loss. In fact, they forced NYRA to change their own rules about nasal strips, otherwise they weren't going to show up at the Belmont. Some once told me, that great horses have great names. They should have also said, that owners with stupid names, will do exactly what they call themselves!

classhandicapper
07-13-2015, 12:47 PM
It's a shame. The horse was very good, but some bad luck in the Belmont and mishandling after that sort of diminished his stature. I thought he ran a terrific race in Dubai. He would have been the best older dirt horse in America once Shared Belief went down and he probably would have tested him well had they met a few more times.

Fager Fan
07-13-2015, 01:04 PM
It's a shame. The horse was very good, but some bad luck in the Belmont and mishandling after that sort of diminished his stature. I thought he ran a terrific race in Dubai. He would have been the best older dirt horse in America once Shared Belief went down and he probably would have tested him well had they met a few more times.

When you think about it, he didn't really run that well in Dubai. Prince Bishop is a horse who has won a single G3 and G2 outside of Dubai. At 8, he should also be beyond his prime. Would we be saying it was a good race by CC had he lost a G1 to an 8yo who to that point had only won a G2?

There was a time where our second-stringers would beat whoever showed up on dirt in Dubai. CC is a first-stringer, yet he didn't win. The time didn't seem to be anything to write home about either.

Stillriledup
07-13-2015, 01:40 PM
It 'wasn't broke' and yet he fixed it anyway to show you how smart he is.

nads1420
07-13-2015, 02:37 PM
When you think about it, he didn't really run that well in Dubai. Prince Bishop is a horse who has won a single G3 and G2 outside of Dubai. At 8, he should also be beyond his prime. Would we be saying it was a good race by CC had he lost a G1 to an 8yo who to that point had only won a G2?

There was a time where our second-stringers would beat whoever showed up on dirt in Dubai. CC is a first-stringer, yet he didn't win. The time didn't seem to be anything to write home about either.

he had a brutal trip if he runs the same trip as the winner he wins by 5

SuperPickle
07-13-2015, 02:42 PM
I'm curious how this ends. Again they're hedging on retirement because they don't have a stud deal.

On top of that the offers have to be going south. I'm sure every offer since last June last been smaller. AP winning the TC did them no favors. Everyone's forgot about him. You do what they did with Smarty Jones and strike while the iron is hottest. These guys stayed too long at the poker table. I would not be shocked if they raced him at 5 because no one wanted him.

The saddest part it is what Rae Guest said about when he got him. He stepped off van exhausted from the Dubai race and travel and then refused to leave the back of his stall for the first two weeks because he didn't know anyone. Everything he had been around for two years was taken away.

Remember that when you think of Perry Martin.

nads1420
07-13-2015, 02:52 PM
The saddest part it is what Rae Guest said about when he got him. He stepped off van exhausted from the Dubai race and travel and then refused to leave the back of his stall for the first two weeks because he didn't know anyone. Everything he had been around for two years was taken away.

Remember that when you think of Perry Martin.


Really, he ruined this horse... Perry Martin is the worst.. Remember that pompous statement he released after Dubai.... boy was he wrong... If i remember correctly he apologized for listening to Art and Coburn for wanted to race in America.... What he a fool he looks like now... Couldnt of looked like a bigger idiot if he had "idiot" written across his forehead with red lipstick

Perry Martin took something beautiful and amazing, and destroyed it. Shame on him. Chrome deserved better.

Stillriledup
07-13-2015, 03:37 PM
Martin and Coburn will go down as probably the biggest buffoons in the history of the game. Once this horse got good they put themselves first. They didnt put the horse first.

Rex Phinney
07-13-2015, 03:43 PM
Call me crazy but I have long thought that the best thing todo is initially stand him in California. I think alot of owners out here would send their mares to him, he could be the biggest fish in a small pond instead of trying to compete with the big stud farms and stud names in Kentucky.

They aren't going to get paid much different standing him in California than they would in Kentucky anyway.Maybe actually give back to the game and the folks at Harris Farms who have done so much for them.

Fager Fan
07-13-2015, 03:47 PM
Call me crazy but I have long thought that the best thing todo is initially stand him in California. I think alot of owners out here would send their mares to him, he could be the biggest fish in a small pond instead of trying to compete with the big stud farms and stud names in Kentucky.

They aren't going to get paid much different standing him in California than they would in Kentucky anyway.Maybe actually give back to the game and the folks at Harris Farms who have done so much for them.

I don't know about that. Maybe there are cases I don't know about, but when a stallion is worth $1m or more, it's the KY farms who have the cash and resources to come up with that. The farms in other states usually can only offer much smaller amounts or other creative deals (like standing the horse for them for a percentage of the horse, etc.).

nads1420
07-13-2015, 04:57 PM
was really looking forward to the BCC Chrome vs Pharoah... Never get to see 2 Derby winners face each other...

SuperPickle
07-13-2015, 05:17 PM
In theory it totally makes sense for them to stand him in CA but here's the issue. No CA farm is going to write them a big check for him because the state of CA racing is so unpredictable. You need a lot of stability to have a strong breeding program. Only three stallions in CA stand for more than $10K and one of them is his sire.

No one can stand a horse for any real money outside of Kentucky. I think Not For Love stood for $25,000 at his peak in Maryland and that's probably the most expensive stud fee ever recorded in the U.S. outside of Kentucky.

Fager Fan
07-13-2015, 06:02 PM
In theory it totally makes sense for them to stand him in CA but here's the issue. No CA farm is going to write them a big check for him because the state of CA racing is so unpredictable. You need a lot of stability to have a strong breeding program. Only three stallions in CA stand for more than $10K and one of them is his sire.

No one can stand a horse for any real money outside of Kentucky. I think Not For Love stood for $25,000 at his peak in Maryland and that's probably the most expensive stud fee ever recorded in the U.S. outside of Kentucky.

Just thought it ironic to note that the most expensive stallion in history never stood in KY but first in Canada and then in Maryland - Northern Dancer.

Tall One
07-13-2015, 06:22 PM
Breeding season doesn't begin for awhile still. If he can recover from his injury 100%, is able to cover(obviously), and if they can syndicate him for a decent price, then he could possibly stand in Kentucky. But, I don't see him commanding a huge fee here, imo.

You never know, though. Since Calumet has started gearing their breeding operations around successful TC performers, he could possibly end up down the road from me.

Just a thought. ;)

Tall One
07-13-2015, 06:46 PM
Just read that Main Sequence was retired today from an injury also.

chadk66
07-13-2015, 06:49 PM
=But isn't the right route to actually race?you of all people know you don't race a horse with physical ailments.

Stillriledup
07-13-2015, 06:53 PM
=you of all people know you don't race a horse with physical ailments.
That's not what I'm saying or suggesting.

nads1420
07-13-2015, 06:56 PM
Would they save face if they ran him at 5? .... in america.. maybe another shot at dubai...

chadk66
07-13-2015, 06:58 PM
That's not what I'm saying or suggesting.you said the right route was to race him. They have tried to race him since DWC and he has not been sound. Look, these guys are not different than 95% of the owners in the country. Have no clue and never listen to the trainer. They own the horse they can do whatever they want. Whether it's right or wrong. Only they will suffer from piss poor decisions. I went round and round that merry go round for far too long.

Stillriledup
07-13-2015, 07:23 PM
you said the right route was to race him. They have tried to race him since DWC and he has not been sound. Look, these guys are not different than 95% of the owners in the country. Have no clue and never listen to the trainer. They own the horse they can do whatever they want. Whether it's right or wrong. Only they will suffer from piss poor decisions. I went round and round that merry go round for far too long.

Sorry for the confusion, i didnt mean they should race the horse unsound or as is thats why i didnt type "the horse" after the word race. Poor wording on my part. I meant that my opinion is that the first and foremost thing should to be to keep the horse in fine fettle so that you CAN race, i didnt think they put themselves in the best possible position to do that, they tried a risky plan that backfired.

As far as them being able to do whatever they want, youre right in the spirit of the law, its not illegal to be stupid with your investments, its not good for the game though. Guys get lucky and get a good horse and all of a sudden they become experts in how to manage a champion. Too bad for the horse these People got their hands on them, they risked this horses health and well being, i could never defend that.

RacingFan1992
07-13-2015, 09:08 PM
=you of all people know you don't race a horse with physical ailments.

Two Lea. Ring Bone.

theiman
07-13-2015, 09:56 PM
Just curious was Arcangues mismanaged when he came to the USA to run in the 1993 BCC? What were the French saying about Andre Fabre and Daniel Wildenstein for sending there horse to run, on dirt, against the best dirt horses in the world. I mean he went off at 133/1, he had no chance. Was he doing it to get a better stud fee down the road? He was sold to Japanese interests at the end of his career and stood stud in Japan.

So were these both bad moves by Wildenstein and the DAP? Or do sometimes taking what appears to be a difficult risk pay out?

Wonder what would have happened if Christopher Columbus decided to not sail off from Spain. After all most told him him he was going to fall off the "Flat" earth.

clocker7
07-14-2015, 12:22 AM
Main Sequence's 2015 is proof positive that his connections were a bunch of morons. A miscalculation of the highest order. WHAT were they thinking, the doofuses? A paltry $3.4 million in lifetime earnings shouldn't shield these clowns from their underlying stupidity.

Chrome's connections should retire him likewise, to spare themselves from the same humiliation.

/sarc

clocker7
07-14-2015, 12:31 AM
I kind of like the horse. He's good enough to win at a rate way more than he does. Great acumen, this horse is under performing at a remarkable rate. HOY, great objectives, over peoples head? What are they exactly? A race every 6 months? You gotta be kidding me. From where I'm sitting the title of this thread becomes more accurate by the day. He can redeem himself by winning some races.....any races. I'll admit there are some haters, I've heard it too, but some of the supporters (like you) are just as much out to lunch on this.....because this horse has barely touched the surface on what he could really do.......he needs to rack up a few hundred k at a time, that's what good horses do.

If he does all those things you claim......I'll admit I'm wrong......I know at this point the odds are in my favor because this horse has run two good races in 14 months. Hey, I heard Baffert and Zayat were shipping American Pharoah to England, they don't want the Haskell's money its not glamorous enough.......... :lol: What's a few hundred thousand at a time? Give me a break.
To someone with his pockets turned inside out, maybe a hundred grand is life-changing money. I doubt that Perry Martin has had those same concerns for a few years now.

Why don't you write him to provide your insight. You can't lose in that regard. If he even bothers to reply, you can consider it a huge victory for the little guy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stillriledup
07-14-2015, 01:52 AM
Just curious was Arcangues mismanaged when he came to the USA to run in the 1993 BCC? What were the French saying about Andre Fabre and Daniel Wildenstein for sending there horse to run, on dirt, against the best dirt horses in the world. I mean he went off at 133/1, he had no chance. Was he doing it to get a better stud fee down the road? He was sold to Japanese interests at the end of his career and stood stud in Japan.

So were these both bad moves by Wildenstein and the DAP? Or do sometimes taking what appears to be a difficult risk pay out?

Wonder what would have happened if Christopher Columbus decided to not sail off from Spain. After all most told him him he was going to fall off the "Flat" earth.

It's more of a risk if your decisions are rooted in not putting the horse first. We know CC was not put first, do we know that Fabre and Wildenstein have had a history of mismanaging horses and putting themselves before the welfare of the horse?

nearco
07-14-2015, 02:04 AM
he had a brutal trip if he runs the same trip as the winner he wins by 5

?
Why do people keep saying this? CC ran a whole 2 meters more than than the winner. Prince Bishop covered more ground than every other horse in the race besides CC.


PRINCE BISHOP (IRE)
2:03.241 2042 Meters

CALIFORNIA CHROME (USA)
2:03.746 2044 meters

LEA (USA)
2:03.973 2027

CANDY BOY (USA)
2:04.980 2034

HOKKO TARUMAE (JPN)
2:05.002 2025

AFRICAN STORY (GB)
2:05.745 2033

LONG RIVER (USA)
2:08.523 2038

SIDE GLANCE (GB)
2:10.130 2028

EPIPHANEIA (JPN)
2:11.480 2040

nearco
07-14-2015, 02:09 AM
The saddest part it is what Rae Guest said about when he got him. He stepped off van exhausted from the Dubai race and travel and then refused to leave the back of his stall for the first two weeks because he didn't know anyone. Everything he had been around for two years was taken away.

Remember that when you think of Perry Martin.

You think Main Sequence sulked when the Niarchos family sent him across the big broad Atlantic to train with Graham Motion? How about every other imported horse? Did Invasor pine for his Uruguayan connections? What about Toast of New York last year when he ran at Del Mar and Santa Anita, did he cry in his oats all night long?

nearco
07-14-2015, 02:10 AM
Just thought it ironic to note that the most expensive stallion in history never stood in KY but first in Canada and then in Maryland - Northern Dancer.

That was pretty funny alright.

OTM Al
07-14-2015, 07:22 AM
Just curious was Arcangues mismanaged when he came to the USA to run in the 1993 BCC? What were the French saying about Andre Fabre and Daniel Wildenstein for sending there horse to run, on dirt, against the best dirt horses in the world. I mean he went off at 133/1, he had no chance. Was he doing it to get a better stud fee down the road? He was sold to Japanese interests at the end of his career and stood stud in Japan.

So were these both bad moves by Wildenstein and the DAP? Or do sometimes taking what appears to be a difficult risk pay out?

Wonder what would have happened if Christopher Columbus decided to not sail off from Spain. After all most told him him he was going to fall off the "Flat" earth.

Stick with your original point about Arcangues. It is good and factual. The Columbus thing not so much.

theiman
07-14-2015, 10:09 AM
Stick with your original point about Arcangues. It is good and factual. The Columbus thing not so much.

My point is that taking a risk is not the worst thing in the world. It is basically how our country has developed and our economy has survived. How many times have you heard "a person isnt a failure if they tried and didnt succeed. It is better to try and fail them to never try at all."

The Columbus analogy fits right in, thats why it was included.

theiman
07-14-2015, 10:19 AM
It's more of a risk if your decisions are rooted in not putting the horse first. We know CC was not put first, do we know that Fabre and Wildenstein have had a history of mismanaging horses and putting themselves before the welfare of the horse?

Do the DAP have a track record/history of putting themselves first with any of their other racing stock?

Horses are bred to race and face challenges. The racing secretary doesnt card "Walk Over" races and you dont get paid for workouts. Grade 1 type horses are expected to face challenges(different surfaces, distances, countries, travel, etc.) plus top competition.

Nobody expected an injury, and as we can see by Lady Eli, SB, MS, and others injuries can happen in various ways, including stepping on a nail.

I believe CC has over $2M in the bank this year between the SA and the Dubai race. Can someone show me a plan where CC stayed in the USA and earned at least that amount. Dont forget SB just beat him fair and square at SA. Where was CC going to race and earn the money he has earned so far.

Fager Fan
07-14-2015, 12:18 PM
Do the DAP have a track record/history of putting themselves first with any of their other racing stock?

Horses are bred to race and face challenges. The racing secretary doesnt card "Walk Over" races and you dont get paid for workouts. Grade 1 type horses are expected to face challenges(different surfaces, distances, countries, travel, etc.) plus top competition.

Nobody expected an injury, and as we can see by Lady Eli, SB, MS, and others injuries can happen in various ways, including stepping on a nail.

I believe CC has over $2M in the bank this year between the SA and the Dubai race. Can someone show me a plan where CC stayed in the USA and earned at least that amount. Dont forget SB just beat him fair and square at SA. Where was CC going to race and earn the money he has earned so far.

The issue is sending him to Europe after Dubai. Had he come home and rested as Sherman wanted, he wouldn't have the abscess or the bruised bones and could've hopefully finished out the Summer and Fall here in races like the Pacific Classic, Woodward, JCGC, BC Classic, etc.

OTM Al
07-14-2015, 12:23 PM
My point is that taking a risk is not the worst thing in the world. It is basically how our country has developed and our economy has survived. How many times have you heard "a person isnt a failure if they tried and didnt succeed. It is better to try and fail them to never try at all."

The Columbus analogy fits right in, thats why it was included.

You miss the point. The Columbus thing is not true. Never happened. Invention of Washington Irving passed off as actual history. That's why it is a bad analogy as it is a falsehood.

I do agree though. Dubai race was worth it. And even though I thought he would likely get smoked in England, I wish more of our trainers and owners would try it. I'm sure his surroundings in England were far nicer than the backside at Santa Anita for a horse.

Tom
07-14-2015, 12:35 PM
Yeah, I was wondering just how those bad people could stick the horse at Ascot, that horrible place. Why would anyone not thing that place would destroy him? :rolleyes::lol:

OTM Al
07-14-2015, 12:41 PM
Yeah, I was wondering just how those bad people could stick the horse at Ascot, that horrible place. Why would anyone not thing that place would destroy him? :rolleyes::lol:

Newmarket actually. I wouldn't mind being stuck there for a few weeks myself.

Stillriledup
07-14-2015, 12:50 PM
Do the DAP have a track record/history of putting themselves first with any of their other racing stock?

Horses are bred to race and face challenges. The racing secretary doesnt card "Walk Over" races and you dont get paid for workouts. Grade 1 type horses are expected to face challenges(different surfaces, distances, countries, travel, etc.) plus top competition.

Nobody expected an injury, and as we can see by Lady Eli, SB, MS, and others injuries can happen in various ways, including stepping on a nail.

I believe CC has over $2M in the bank this year between the SA and the Dubai race. Can someone show me a plan where CC stayed in the USA and earned at least that amount. Dont forget SB just beat him fair and square at SA. Where was CC going to race and earn the money he has earned so far.

just remember though the horse himself would prefer to stay in his comfortable surroundings, all this shipping and nonsense is for the owners fame, ego and hopefully for them, bank accounts. They're not shipping this horse all over the glove because CC whispered in the ears 'I'd love to see the world'

Mystic
07-14-2015, 02:37 PM
Martin and Coburn will go down as probably the biggest buffoons in the history of the game. Once this horse got good they put themselves first. They didnt put the horse first.

Jim MacInvale "Mattress Mack" of Gallery Furniture was a pretty big buffon too.
Although he did try to get Zenyatta and Rachael to hook up for $2 Milllion at Sam Houston.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/thoroughbred-racing/texas-two-step/

Sues Baffert and Bloodstock agents in 2006:http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2006-09-09-baffert-sued_x.htm

OTM Al
07-14-2015, 03:01 PM
just remember though the horse himself would prefer to stay in his comfortable surroundings, all this shipping and nonsense is for the owners fame, ego and hopefully for them, bank accounts. They're not shipping this horse all over the glove because CC whispered in the ears 'I'd love to see the world'

Then he should have never left California in the first place. Must have been just awful for him going to Kentucky, Maryland, New York, etc.

Show Me the Wire
07-14-2015, 03:05 PM
Then he should have never left California in the first place. Must have been just awful for him going to Kentucky, Maryland, New York, etc.

Yes, because people breed and buy race horses out of benevolence for the horse and not for ego, fame or hopes of making money :)

OTM Al
07-14-2015, 03:10 PM
Yes, because people breed and buy race horses out of benevolence for the horse and not for ego, fame or hopes of making money :)

Why of course they do. The horse always comes first you know. It was a crime to even make him race I think. Terrible, terrible. Where are the cries that he's done enough by the way?

Stillriledup
07-14-2015, 03:14 PM
Then he should have never left California in the first place. Must have been just awful for him going to Kentucky, Maryland, New York, etc.

I'm no aviation expert, but I think those were shorter flights. Also, different stresses traveling overseas, there's a reason people say long flights knock horses out, never heard someone saying calif to ky was too grueling to undertake.

I didn't see Zenyatta travel much, they treated that horse like royalty, she wasn't shipping all over the place running on all these different tracks, she made a shipload of money, won HOY and got worldwide fame and is now living happily ever after. No reason these guys couldn't have taken the Z route. After the triple crown the could have stayed in Calif, there was really no reason to leave.

OTM Al
07-14-2015, 03:22 PM
I'm no aviation expert, but I think those were shorter flights. Also, different stresses traveling overseas, there's a reason people say long flights knock horses out, never heard someone saying calif to ky was too grueling to undertake.

I didn't see Zenyatta travel much, they treated that horse like royalty, she wasn't shipping all over the place running on all these different tracks, she made a shipload of money, won HOY and got worldwide fame and is now living happily ever after. No reason these guys couldn't have taken the Z route. After the triple crown the could have stayed in Calif, there was really no reason to leave.
You are right. He'd done enough. Why not stay in California and beat up on the same bunch of tomato cans race after race. No point in trying to do something more. Why he was already the greatest horse that ever lived so he should just live out his life in fields of clover.

Show Me the Wire
07-14-2015, 03:23 PM
I'm no aviation expert, but I think those were shorter flights. Also, different stresses traveling overseas, there's a reason people say long flights knock horses out, never heard someone saying calif to ky was too grueling to undertake.

I didn't see Zenyatta travel much, they treated that horse like royalty, she wasn't shipping all over the place running on all these different tracks, she made a shipload of money, won HOY and got worldwide fame and is now living happily ever after. No reason these guys couldn't have taken the Z route. After the triple crown the could have stayed in Calif, there was really no reason to leave.

Because they were thinking about the best interest of the horse. They didn't want Chrome's reputation tarnished and his feelings hurt by the naysayers regarding Zenyatta's lack of travel outside of California.

OTM Al
07-14-2015, 03:25 PM
Because they were thinking about the best interest of the horse. They didn't want Chrome's reputation tarnished and his feelings hurt by the naysayers regarding Zenyatta's lack of travel outside of California.
It would have just broken Chrome's heart to know a bunch of people on the internet thought such things of him.

Fager Fan
07-14-2015, 03:31 PM
This is a weird turn in the discussion. No one's said he shouldn't have traveled. He should've traveled to where it made logical sense to travel. Europe wasn't logical. The horse hadn't proven to be capable of tackling that kind of competition on turf. In addition, the horse needed a rest after Dubai. Martin was clueless about the condition of the horse but his trainer stated at the time that he needed a rest. The horse goes to Europe instead, isn't feeling well to the point of having his head to the back of the stall for two weeks, and then is pushed to make a race. The end result was a horse who was 150-200 pounds underweight and had bone bruising due to overload of the bone. Now he misses the rest of the year when there were and are a ton of top dirt races ripe for the picking. Brilliant idea.

Anyone who thinks horses give a sh** how pretty their surroundings are doesn't know anything about horses.

tucker6
07-14-2015, 03:46 PM
I'm no aviation expert, but I think those were shorter flights. Also, different stresses traveling overseas, there's a reason people say long flights knock horses out, never heard someone saying calif to ky was too grueling to undertake.

I didn't see Zenyatta travel much, they treated that horse like royalty, she wasn't shipping all over the place running on all these different tracks, she made a shipload of money, won HOY and got worldwide fame and is now living happily ever after. No reason these guys couldn't have taken the Z route. After the triple crown the could have stayed in Calif, there was really no reason to leave.
remember hearing something like that from "friends of Zenyatta" quite a bit. Zenyatta was used exactly as California Chrome, just in the opposite direction. CC was shipped worldwide to satisfy the owner's ego. Zenyatta was kept close to home and managed tightly to satisfy the owner's ego. Same book different chapter.

theiman
07-14-2015, 03:50 PM
This is a weird turn in the discussion. No one's said he shouldn't have traveled. He should've traveled to where it made logical sense to travel. Europe wasn't logical. The horse hadn't proven to be capable of tackling that kind of competition on turf. In addition, the horse needed a rest after Dubai. Martin was clueless about the condition of the horse but his trainer stated at the time that he needed a rest. The horse goes to Europe instead, isn't feeling well to the point of having his head to the back of the stall for two weeks, and then is pushed to make a race. The end result was a horse who was 150-200 pounds underweight and had bone bruising due to overload of the bone. Now he misses the rest of the year when there were and are a ton of top dirt races ripe for the picking. Brilliant idea.

Anyone who thinks horses give a sh** how pretty their surroundings are doesn't know anything about horses.

Based on your post, if CC came back to first rest and then race in the USA, where would you have raced him? Remember SB beat him fairly easily at SA in the winter and wasnt injured at that time. What would be CC's path to riches. I think he most likely avoids a healthy SB until the BCC at Keeneland.

Just curious what would he have earned in the 3-4 races he would have left in his 4 year old season, and most likely his career.