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FlintAtTheFetlock
06-14-2015, 12:28 PM
Hello,

Is there a recent rule explanation for so many scratches at the NY tracks. I've basically given up out from frustration as I handicap the day or morning before prior to prerace change/scratch announcements. Some fields like yesterday were down to 3 horses. Are there any actions tracks could take to mitigate this like having more runners on stand by or something? I have to think this could do great damage to the circuit if it continues unabated. Do you expect this affliction to carryover to Saratoga in the summer? That would be a shame. Why do FL tracks keep changes to minimum but NY overflows? I wish to understand dynamics.

Thanks

Kash$
06-14-2015, 12:49 PM
It's been happening the entire meet I'm sure some PA nyra insider could explain.

therussmeister
06-14-2015, 03:24 PM
When I care to look, which is not often, there seems to be a high number of vet scratches.

Stillriledup
06-14-2015, 06:34 PM
The good thing about NYRAs greatest trainer David Jacobson is that he rarely enters horses he has no plan on racing, if he enters, he races.

He's good like that.

grimm7
06-14-2015, 07:32 PM
Agree! High number of vet scratches. I wonder if these scratched horses really intend to run?

FlintAtTheFetlock
06-20-2015, 04:52 PM
Another brutal scratch heavy day (6/20) on a prime Saturday at Belmont. This is discouraging to say the least. WTF?

cj
06-20-2015, 05:04 PM
Put a stat out on Twitter today, Linda Rice has scratched 20.5% of the horses she has entered to run in her career. How is that tolerated? She scratched two out of the Bed O Roses today.

The average for all horses is 6.11%, so she is WWWAAAYYY above the norm.

Tom
06-20-2015, 05:08 PM
I can't imagine a legitimate reason to HAVE to scratch two horses out of the same race. Isn't it time for NYRA to look for someone else to fill her stalls?
Belmont has become a total waste of time to even look at this year.

cj
06-20-2015, 05:13 PM
I can't imagine a legitimate reason to HAVE to scratch two horses out of the same race. Isn't it time for NYRA to look for someone else to fill her stalls?
Belmont has become a total waste of time to even look at this year.

The horsemen, especially Pletcher, are loving it. Races aren't for gamblers any more, they are for trainers and jockeys.

outofthebox
06-20-2015, 05:23 PM
Sometimes it's part of the game. I had to scratch two horses in the last 24 hours who on paper had a pretty good shot. Unfortunately both scoped pretty dirty and are coughing a bit. They have both been on antibiotics for four days and could have run as long as i pulled the antibiotics 24 hours out. It would not have been fair to the horse or the betting public to have run them, although they seem back to normal on race day. I don't know the reasoning behind Rices' scratching two out of the stake. The owners had to put up a few grand to pass the entries....

cj
06-20-2015, 05:43 PM
Sometimes it's part of the game. I had to scratch two horses in the last 24 hours who on paper had a pretty good shot. Unfortunately both scoped pretty dirty and are coughing a bit. They have both been on antibiotics for four days and could have run as long as i pulled the antibiotics 24 hours out. It would not have been fair to the horse or the betting public to have run them, although they seem back to normal on race day. I don't know the reasoning behind Rices' scratching two out of the stake. The owners had to put up a few grand to pass the entries....

When you scratch 20.5% of the time, there is zero chance reasons like this are usually the cause. I have no doubt it happens to her occasionally, but 20.5% is insane.

lamboguy
06-20-2015, 05:52 PM
Put a stat out on Twitter today, Linda Rice has scratched 20.5% of the horses she has entered to run in her career. How is that tolerated? She scratched two out of the Bed O Roses today.

The average for all horses is 6.11%, so she is WWWAAAYYY above the norm.
sometimes they let her get away without the 10 day penalty. if you don't like the field you are in, wouldn't you like to scratch with no penalty? she is one of the examples why you need to send your horses to larger trainer's, they get away with plenty and like i said in the other thread they own the condition book.

i can remember 3 years ago i entered a horse in a race for turf only, the clerk in New York claimed i didn't. i immediately got penalized the 10 days, that meant i was not allowed to enter the very next day for turf. the horse sat in the barn for a month and got injured and i had to send the horse back to florida. if you are a small guy, the racing office is very strict, if you are a big boy you get away with murder.

JustRalph
06-20-2015, 07:46 PM
The horsemen, especially Pletcher, are loving it. Races aren't for gamblers any more, they are for trainers and jockeys.

Amen! Drove me away......moving to Texas doesn't even matter to me anymore. A few trips to the track a year will suffice

Tom
06-20-2015, 07:48 PM
Gee, Ralph.
You don't miss short fields and shows of extraordinary riding skills as top NY riders imitate rodeo stars and herd horses, or their feats of strength as they wrestle speed horses into submission?

JustRalph
06-20-2015, 07:55 PM
Gee, Ralph.
You don't miss short fields and shows of extraordinary riding skills as top NY riders imitate rodeo stars and herd horses, or their feats of strength as they wrestle speed horses into submission?

Perfect description......

thespaah
06-20-2015, 11:05 PM
I have always maintained that is seems much too simple a process to remove a horse from a race.
One the standardbred side, if a trainer wants to scratch, he had better have a very good reason. The rules are different. Hence one of the reasons fields are always full.
CJ says 'races are written for trainers and riders'.....I used to pooh pooh that notion.
I am not in agreement.
If they keep it up, 10-15 years from now, this game won't exist...

therussmeister
06-20-2015, 11:13 PM
Way back in the early days of simulcasting there was, on the track feed, an interview with a high percentage trainer (in those days 25% was high percentage). He was asked how he maintained a high win percentage, he said if his horse is not one of the top three on the morning line he scratched.

I forget who that trainer was.

thaskalos
06-20-2015, 11:31 PM
Reduce the purse of the race by 15% for every late scratch...and then see if this doesn't cure the problem.

EMD4ME
06-20-2015, 11:47 PM
Reduce the purse of the race by 15% for every late scratch...and then see if this doesn't cure the problem.

I LOVE that idea.

thespaah
06-20-2015, 11:59 PM
Reduce the purse of the race by 15% for every late scratch...and then see if this doesn't cure the problem.
a few years ago, NYRA tried to entice trainers to make sure fields were as full as possible.
NYRA increased the purse in some races by $10k if the number of starters was 8 or more. Gate scratches did not count.

andtheyreoff
06-21-2015, 12:04 AM
a few years ago, NYRA tried to entice trainers to make sure fields were as full as possible.
NYRA increased the purse in some races by $10k if the number of starters was 8 or more. Gate scratches did not count.

It was a great idea, too. The wording of it was, if I recall correctly, "purse will be increased by $10,000 provided eight or more betting interests leave the paddock".

It's a brilliant idea, and I wish tracks would adopt it full-time. Any extra money given out in purses will be made up for in extra handle over time.

thespaah
06-21-2015, 12:05 AM
Reduce the purse of the race by 15% for every late scratch...and then see if this doesn't cure the problem.
Excellent idea.....

thespaah
06-21-2015, 12:06 AM
It was a great idea, too. The wording of it was, if I recall correctly, "purse will be increased by $10,000 provided eight or more betting interests leave the paddock".

It's a brilliant idea, and I wish tracks would adopt it full-time. Any extra money given out in purses will be made up for in extra handle over time.
:ThmbUp:

Tom
06-21-2015, 10:16 AM
I have always maintained that is seems much too simple a process to remove a horse from a race.
One the standardbred side, if a trainer wants to scratch, he had better have a very good reason. The rules are different. Hence one of the reasons fields are always full.
CJ says 'races are written for trainers and riders'.....I used to pooh pooh that notion.
I am not in agreement.
If they keep it up, 10-15 years from now, this game won't exist...

Racing has never really embraced that the bettors are the customers. Most tracks cannot eve spell customer. they will jump all over you if you dare question them, but actions speak louder than words. It is not the horse that make a track minor league - not by a long shot.

Great ideas are not what tracks are looking for.

Tom
06-21-2015, 02:18 PM
Belmont continues to dazzle today - 3 scratches out a 7 horse third race.
Maybe purses need to severely CUT to make racing more a need than a luxury.

castaway01
06-21-2015, 02:30 PM
Reduce the purse of the race by 15% for every late scratch...and then see if this doesn't cure the problem.

So you punish the trainers who stay IN the race by cutting their purse, but don't penalize the trainer who scratches?

cj
06-21-2015, 02:35 PM
So you punish the trainers who stay IN the race by cutting their purse, but don't penalize the trainer who scratches?

I agree with this. You have to punish those that scratch. I understand there is a shortage of horses. You don't want to alienate those that control them. But in the end, how much worse could the racing product be?

You want to race for big NYRA purses, you run when you enter barring injury or illness. And I mean real, certified injury or illness. They don't like it, tough. Let them go to Parx and PID and Delaware and see how they like it competing in the Wild West of horse racing.

JimG
06-21-2015, 02:37 PM
Gee, Ralph.
You don't miss short fields and shows of extraordinary riding skills as top NY riders imitate rodeo stars and herd horses, or their feats of strength as they wrestle speed horses into submission?

Cornelio would be the wrestling world champion if that was a sport.

thaskalos
06-21-2015, 03:14 PM
I agree with this. You have to punish those that scratch. I understand there is a shortage of horses. You don't want to alienate those that control them. But in the end, how much worse could the racing product be?

You want to race for big NYRA purses, you run when you enter barring injury or illness. And I mean real, certified injury or illness. They don't like it, tough. Let them go to Parx and PID and Delaware and see how they like it competing in the Wild West of horse racing.
The trainers run the game...no one can tell them what to do. Trim the purses in accordance to the late scratches...and the trainers will apply enough pressure among themselves to alleviate the late scratch problem. The small fields abound only because the big purses have remained intact. Realign the purses according to field size...and the full fields will return, IMO.

cj
06-21-2015, 03:15 PM
The trainers run the game...no one can tell them what to do. Trim the purses in accordance to the late scratches...and the trainers will apply enough pressure among themselves to alleviate the late scratch problem. The small fields abound only because the big purses have remained intact. Realign the purses according to field size...and the full fields will return, IMO.

I don't think it would work, but hey, it is worth a shot. Anything is worth trying given the racing we get these days.

thaskalos
06-21-2015, 03:26 PM
I don't think it would work, but hey, it is worth a shot. Anything is worth trying given the racing we get these days.
The problem is that it takes BALLS to bring forth real change...and the racing "industry" is ball-less.

Ruffian1
06-21-2015, 03:38 PM
I don't think it would work, but hey, it is worth a shot. Anything is worth trying given the racing we get these days.

Here is one that would absolutely work.

Instead of the old 5 days in jail that maybe meant something 50 years ago, give the scratched horse 21 days. That would fix plenty of it.
The only unfair part of this is the horse with the tendon or suspensory that catches a muddy track. Would need to think about that scenario for a bit.
But as for the scratch parade on a typical day, 21 days on the bench would cool it off.

cj
06-21-2015, 03:44 PM
Here is one that would absolutely work.

Instead of the old 5 days in jail that maybe meant something 50 years ago, give the scratched horse 21 days. That would fix plenty of it.
The only unfair part of this is the horse with the tendon or suspensory that catches a muddy track. Would need to think about that scenario for a bit.
But as for the scratch parade on a typical day, 21 days on the bench would cool it off.

100% agree. But here is what tracks would say. We don't have enough horses. We can't afford to lose a horse from not only today's race, but for three more weeks.

Nobody in the industry has any tolerance for pain.

Chaka26
06-21-2015, 03:50 PM
Here is one that would absolutely work.

Instead of the old 5 days in jail that maybe meant something 50 years ago, give the scratched horse 21 days. That would fix plenty of it.
The only unfair part of this is the horse with the tendon or suspensory that catches a muddy track. Would need to think about that scenario for a bit.
But as for the scratch parade on a typical day, 21 days on the bench would cool it off.

The trainers need to be held responsible -once you start mandating. 21 days now,you are affecting owners as you just added 3 more weeks of expense with no chance to offset with race earnings. Which is paid to the trainer in question
Where is the penalty?

Also as a very minority owner we had a cheap,claimer that moved from arlington to canterbury park and it took 8 entries to get into a race...several over night races were never brought back it was like 6-7 weeks between starts and now you want to toss 3 more weeks on

Only Trainer fines or forfeiting trainer share of purses or suspending their licenses penalize the responsible party

thaskalos
06-21-2015, 03:51 PM
Here is one that would absolutely work.

Instead of the old 5 days in jail that maybe meant something 50 years ago, give the scratched horse 21 days. That would fix plenty of it.
The only unfair part of this is the horse with the tendon or suspensory that catches a muddy track. Would need to think about that scenario for a bit.
But as for the scratch parade on a typical day, 21 days on the bench would cool it off.
I like your idea...but I still think that the size of the race purse should be somehow related to the size of the field.

A somewhat unrelated question...if I may:

A 12-horse turf race with a purse of $65,000 is (understandably) reduced to a field of 4 because of heavy rain. Should these 4 horses still be running for a $65,000 purse?

Ruffian1
06-21-2015, 04:04 PM
100% agree. But here is what tracks would say. We don't have enough horses. We can't afford to lose a horse from not only today's race, but for three more weeks.

Nobody in the industry has any tolerance for pain.

So true.
But you could try and turn the tables on the horsemen and say it looks like we need to cut dates if we can't fill races. Big fight over that of course and when it all settles down, the 5 horse fields ( or less ) keep coming.
The whole world knows that there are too many dates. But nobody has the balls to say it and mean it. That would require states to work in conjunction with one another and good luck there.
Greedy horsemen and greedy management= same old game. It is mind blowing that they can't see that large fields and smaller takeout would bring in soooo much more because of the product it produced.
The customers need a stronger lobby. Man, are they taken for granted. Many a meeting I went to when they were not even a consideration in any discussion. Other trainers as well as some , not all management , would say "who", and laugh if I mentioned them.

Ruffian1
06-21-2015, 04:08 PM
I like your idea...but I still think that the size of the race purse should be somehow related to the size of the field.

A somewhat unrelated question...if I may:

A 12-horse turf race with a purse of $65,000 is (understandably) reduced to a field of 4 because of heavy rain. Should these 4 horses still be running for a $65,000 purse?

Common sense would say , no way, wouldn't it.
I do hate penalizing the people that do support the game though. And some might consider scratching the heavy favorite if the purse got too small, especially a condition race that is a one time thing, to get the best purse possible next time thinking that they have the best horse no matter the size of the field.

Ruffian1
06-21-2015, 04:10 PM
The trainers need to be held responsible -once you start mandating. 21 days now,you are affecting owners as you just added 3 more weeks of expense with no chance to offset with race earnings. Which is paid to the trainer in question
Where is the penalty?

Also as a very minority owner we had a cheap,claimer that moved from arlington to canterbury park and it took 8 entries to get into a race...several over night races were never brought back it was like 6-7 weeks between starts and now you want to toss 3 more weeks on

Only Trainer fines or forfeiting trainer share of purses or suspending their licenses penalize the responsible party

I think the owners would help police this for exactly your thoughts. One thing I am sure of. Way back in the day, when you entered, it was to run. Today, you enter and take a look at the race and then decide. THAT, is the problem that needs to be fixed.

therussmeister
06-21-2015, 04:38 PM
So you punish the trainers who stay IN the race by cutting their purse, but don't penalize the trainer who scratches?
Instead, when a horse scratches, reduce that horse's purse in its next race.

Stillriledup
06-21-2015, 06:05 PM
I agree with this. You have to punish those that scratch. I understand there is a shortage of horses. You don't want to alienate those that control them. But in the end, how much worse could the racing product be?

You want to race for big NYRA purses, you run when you enter barring injury or illness. And I mean real, certified injury or illness. They don't like it, tough. Let them go to Parx and PID and Delaware and see how they like it competing in the Wild West of horse racing.

They need to just write into the conditions of the race what the purse is for 12 entrants, 11 entrants, etc that way nobody is punushing anyone who stays in the race because the connections know in advance that the purse goes lower for every defection.

Tom
06-21-2015, 06:17 PM
Instead, when a horse scratches, reduce that horse's purse in its next race.
Or, write into the conditions...horse who have scratched in the last 60 days, +3 lbs, 30 days, +6 lbs. etc,

ultracapper
06-21-2015, 06:56 PM
Why has the horse population dropped so dramatically. Are farms being sold for development? On one hand we say that track closures negatively effect horse population. We saw that here in Washington when Longacres closed. But on the other hand, we say we have too many race dates. With all the race dates and the large purses in Cal, NY, FLA, and other places, along with slot enhanced purses at 2nd and 3rd tier tracks, why are there not breeders coming out of the woodwork?

I'm a handicapper, not a student of the industry. My knowledge of the industry as a whole is limited to what I learn here for the most part, so bear with what may have been an elementary inquiry on my part. Doug Salvatore once compared me to an Elmo doll when I made a ridiculous statement about pinhooking, so don't be afraid to pop me if you have to.

HoofedInTheChest
06-21-2015, 06:59 PM
Didn't i just read last week that Belmont is the "Premier Track in North America"?

What gives?

Ruffian1
06-21-2015, 07:33 PM
Why has the horse population dropped so dramatically. Are farms being sold for development? On one hand we say that track closures negatively effect horse population. We saw that here in Washington when Longacres closed. But on the other hand, we say we have too many race dates. With all the race dates and the large purses in Cal, NY, FLA, and other places, along with slot enhanced purses at 2nd and 3rd tier tracks, why are there not breeders coming out of the woodwork?

I'm a handicapper, not a student of the industry. My knowledge of the industry as a whole is limited to what I learn here for the most part, so bear with what may have been an elementary inquiry on my part. Doug Salvatore once compared me to an Elmo doll when I made a ridiculous statement about pinhooking, so don't be afraid to pop me if you have to.

No popping necessary. The breeding industry went south 30-35 years ago. Sure, the best of the best brought a great return but a multitude of well bred horse flesh went for pennies on the dollar. This lasted for over a decade and the breeding business went way south during that period. In Md.'s case, that along with the real estate values going way up created an imbalance for the breeder. All of the sudden, owning a breeding farm on prime real estate was a luxury and many were forced to abandon their breeding operation and sell their all of the sudden, more valuable land. I speak for Md. because I know for sure what I speak too. Can't be sure of other jurisdictions. But the breeding industry as a whole was brutal for years and years around the decade of the 80's and well into the 90's . It never really recovered on the lower end. Just the best of the best. Maybe it has somewhat today, I just don't know, having left the game about 15 years ago.
Hope that helps answer your question.

ultracapper
06-21-2015, 08:35 PM
Yes sir, it does. Longacres itself was sold because the land itself became just too valuable for the Gottsteins/Alhadaffs to operate a race track when Boeing put millions of dollars of stock and cash on their table. No different than the Hollywood Park story. In Washington, Emerald Downs is situated on property that is between nothing and more of nothing. The breeding farms that I know of are located in some very nice areas that suburbia is slowly intruding on. Soon, breeding operations are going to have to set up in the Cascade foothills or the racing in this state, which is already in extreme peril, will go away forever. No Ron Crockett to save it. No acceptable land within shouting distance of Seattle to accommodate the spread necessary to operate this sport. The loss of Longacres wiped out horse racing east of the Cascades, where there is plenty of acceptable land to operate both race track and breeding operations, but a population of potential horse players that are spread out thinly with very little population concentration anywhere.

Secondbest
06-21-2015, 10:22 PM
Didn't the tax law change so that there was less write offs in the industry?

thespaah
06-22-2015, 10:42 PM
Racing has never really embraced that the bettors are the customers. Most tracks cannot eve spell customer. they will jump all over you if you dare question them, but actions speak louder than words. It is not the horse that make a track minor league - not by a long shot.

Great ideas are not what tracks are looking for.
Oh.. I would just relish the opportunity to go nose to nose with a member of racetrack management. And no, I would not be intimidated one iota.
What's the guy gonna, do?....Throw a punch?

thespaah
06-22-2015, 10:48 PM
The trainers run the game...no one can tell them what to do. Trim the purses in accordance to the late scratches...and the trainers will apply enough pressure among themselves to alleviate the late scratch problem. The small fields abound only because the big purses have remained intact. Realign the purses according to field size...and the full fields will return, IMO.
I agree. If the track can't police the trainers, let the peer pressure do it.
It might just wind up that the bigger barns will finally realize that their game has been exposed and will go to other trainers and let them know they don't like it when fields are reduced and with that the purses.
It would go like..."hey, what did that guy just do? He scratched and now the purse went from $50k to $42.5k....What a jerk!"

thespaah
06-22-2015, 11:02 PM
Here is one that would absolutely work.

Instead of the old 5 days in jail that maybe meant something 50 years ago, give the scratched horse 21 days. That would fix plenty of it.
The only unfair part of this is the horse with the tendon or suspensory that catches a muddy track. Would need to think about that scenario for a bit.
But as for the scratch parade on a typical day, 21 days on the bench would cool it off.
There would have to be a provision made for horses that are healing from an injury and able to race but an off track would have the potential to aggravate the injury. That would be a legit reason for a scratch....But this " my horse farted and it smelled bad" or it "might rain , so I'm gonna scratch" or " The jock I normally use went to another horse, so I'm gonna scratch" has go to stop.
The conspiracy theorist( which rarely comes out) in me wonders if some trainers are paying other trainers to scratch. Or there is some back scratching going on.....

Stillriledup
06-23-2015, 02:31 AM
There would have to be a provision made for horses that are healing from an injury and able to race but an off track would have the potential to aggravate the injury. That would be a legit reason for a scratch....But this " my horse farted and it smelled bad" or it "might rain , so I'm gonna scratch" or " The jock I normally use went to another horse, so I'm gonna scratch" has go to stop.
The conspiracy theorist( which rarely comes out) in me wonders if some trainers are paying other trainers to scratch. Or there is some back scratching going on.....

CJ mentioned Linda Rices scratch rate which is 4 times the national average, my guess would be that she's just entering and then handicapping the spot and if it looks tough, or the field is too big, or she has post 1, she may pick another spot, if there's no downside for scratching, you may as well handicap the race and make the decision at that point.

Ruffian1
06-23-2015, 07:50 AM
There would have to be a provision made for horses that are healing from an injury and able to race but an off track would have the potential to aggravate the injury. That would be a legit reason for a scratch....But this " my horse farted and it smelled bad" or it "might rain , so I'm gonna scratch" or " The jock I normally use went to another horse, so I'm gonna scratch" has go to stop.
The conspiracy theorist( which rarely comes out) in me wonders if some trainers are paying other trainers to scratch. Or there is some back scratching going on.....

Can only speak for myself but in my experience, no, nobody ever hinted for me to scratch nor did I to them. I ran thousands. The deep bond some might think exists between trainers is nonexistent. Sure, you have your count them on one hand group of friends, but the rest are acquaintances. Some you flat out can't stand. Trainers don't trust many other trainers. Many trainers are just as paranoid about other trainers as customers are about collusion between trainers.
When a very popular active trainer in Md. died in the late 70's, everyone was "sad". His funeral was at 11 AM to accommodate everyone's work schedule and about 5 miles from the track in Md. that as running. When I went I was floored to see that 2 other trainers and myself were the only ones there. I learned a lot about the trainers on my backside that day. Never forgot it.

Ruffian1
06-23-2015, 10:04 AM
CJ mentioned Linda Rices scratch rate which is 4 times the national average, my guess would be that she's just entering and then handicapping the spot and if it looks tough, or the field is too big, or she has post 1, she may pick another spot, if there's no downside for scratching, you may as well handicap the race and make the decision at that point.

Great guess. So would I. Trainers that are doing this are obviously abusing the privilege. In most cases they see nothing wrong with it and that is because they don't even consider the customer. Sad but true.

Robert Goren
06-23-2015, 10:52 AM
Great guess. So would I. Trainers that are doing this are obviously abusing the privilege. In most cases they see nothing wrong with it and that is because they don't even consider the customer. Sad but true.I used to believe they won't as long as money from the slots is allowed in the game. But not anymore. Even places like Nebraska where there is 0 chance of the tracks ever getting slot money and everybody knows it, they still pull the same crap.

Ruffian1
06-23-2015, 11:01 AM
I used to believe they won't as long as money from the slots is allowed in the game. But not anymore. Even places like Nebraska where there is 0 chance of the tracks ever getting slot money and everybody knows it, they still pull the same crap.

I agree. And it was going on long before slots ever came around. It's a damn shame and it only ends when customers can have a representation and a strong allegiance to that representative.
Management and horsemen only respect power. Until customers can show cause for concern, there will not be any.
I hope you do someday. The day that happens is the day things start to change. Because THE CUSTOMER can absolutely control a portion of the game if they want to. But, because of slots, they must now also control the slots customers, at least in some jurisdictions.

Robert Goren
06-23-2015, 11:12 AM
I agree. And it was going on long before slots ever came around. It's a damn shame and it only ends when customers can have a representation and a strong allegiance to that representative.
Management and horsemen only respect power. Until customers can show cause for concern, there will not be any.
I hope you do someday. The day that happens is the day things start to change. Because THE CUSTOMER can absolutely control a portion of the game if they want to. But, because of slots, they must now also control the slots customers, at least in some jurisdictions.The customers of horse racing have been the sport in droves for 30 years. The powers that be in horse racing know what has to be done to stop the exodus , but are unwilling to do it. It is much easier to go crying to the state legislatures asking for slot money.

Ruffian1
06-23-2015, 11:17 AM
The customers of horse racing have been the sport in droves for 30 years. The powers that be in horse racing know what has to be done to stop the exodus , but are unwilling to do it. It is much easier to go crying to the state legislatures asking for slot money.

So true. And all those trainers and "horsemen" that come in to show strength to Annapolis or the State Legislature,were bused there by a charter bus that left the track kitchen at 8AM and with a head count to see WHO was in attendance and WHO was not. The stall list was always up for adjustment be it up or down. It was go or else.
Been there, done that.

thespaah
06-23-2015, 01:56 PM
Can only speak for myself but in my experience, no, nobody ever hinted for me to scratch nor did I to them. I ran thousands. The deep bond some might think exists between trainers is nonexistent. Sure, you have your count them on one hand group of friends, but the rest are acquaintances. Some you flat out can't stand. Trainers don't trust many other trainers. Many trainers are just as paranoid about other trainers as customers are about collusion between trainers.
When a very popular active trainer in Md. died in the late 70's, everyone was "sad". His funeral was at 11 AM to accommodate everyone's work schedule and about 5 miles from the track in Md. that as running. When I went I was floored to see that 2 other trainers and myself were the only ones there. I learned a lot about the trainers on my backside that day. Never forgot it.
I cannot say I am surprised. During my short tenure in the harness side, a trainer who was not my boss sorta became like a mentor. I was just out of high school and while I did a lot of reading, in the real world, I didn't know horseflesh from horsepower. Anyway, he and I were chatting one evening( I worked on a training farm) after I had fed my two horses and he told me to watch out for myself, because "there are a lot of scumbags in this business". He also said, as opposed to "out there" pointing his finger toward RT 33, "these guys will let you know right away they don't like you. They don't like anybody"...One thing I discovered was these guys, trainers I mean, were always so nervous. Like they lived on Maalox and Pepto Bismol.
Oh there were a few guys that always seemed to commiserating. Whether they were friendly enough to pull off some funny business, i didn't know.
But it did not seem unlikely given the amount of 'information' which ran through the barns of the farm.
Let's put it this way. I made more money on 'tips' than I made working every day.

thespaah
06-26-2015, 03:57 PM
todays 3rd...
Started with 8...Three went ....Terrible

Stillriledup
06-26-2015, 04:04 PM
todays 3rd...
Started with 8...Three went ....Terrible

And the guy on the 8 moves out of the way to boot :D

EMD4ME
06-26-2015, 04:10 PM
And the guy on the 8 moves out of the way to boot :D

The day that supposed Hall Of Famer puts his life at risk is the day hell will freeze over. JV's #1 mission on the track is always stay alive and take zero risks. Not saying he should risk his life but his preference is to always get out of the way, stay 5 wide as much as possible. He follows as few horses as possible. He always helps cancel racing if a butterfly sneezes 16 miles away (and might cause some wind) & if the roof leaks at AQU and the drips might fall on the track, Johnny is the first to vote for a cancellation :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stillriledup
06-26-2015, 05:12 PM
The day that supposed Hall Of Famer puts his life at risk is the day hell will freeze over. JV's #1 mission on the track is always stay alive and take zero risks. Not saying he should risk his life but his preference is to always get out of the way, stay 5 wide as much as possible. He follows as few horses as possible. He always helps cancel racing if a butterfly sneezes 16 miles away (and might cause some wind) & if the roof leaks at AQU and the drips might fall on the track, Johnny is the first to vote for a cancellation :lol: :lol: :lol:

He sounds like a little bit of a fraud. Take away Pletcher and the guy has many less wins and much less money. He was even the guy who didn't scratch LAT and then refused to ride her one inch in a premeditated move out of the gate. He never gave her the shot. He knew in advance he was going to wrap up as soon as the gate opened. Was he suspended or fined for lack of effort on life at ten, I don't remember if he was.

Stillriledup
07-16-2015, 12:54 PM
Whats With the first race today? :bang:

EMD4ME
07-16-2015, 12:56 PM
Whats With the first race today? :bang:
NYRA wanted to help increase the SRU post count ???? :rolleyes: :lol: :lol:

Just kidding pal. I didn't look at the entries yet so I don't know why half the field scratched. Any thoughts? Holding horses out for Saratoga, hoping for rain etc. ?

Valuist
07-16-2015, 01:00 PM
Put a stat out on Twitter today, Linda Rice has scratched 20.5% of the horses she has entered to run in her career. How is that tolerated? She scratched two out of the Bed O Roses today.

The average for all horses is 6.11%, so she is WWWAAAYYY above the norm.

She seems to run a lot of entries and a lot of MTOs and turf sprinters. Not to justify it, as it does seem to be unreasonable, but it might help to explain it. I wonder what Jacobsen's number is; he seems to run a ton of entries.

Stillriledup
07-16-2015, 01:07 PM
NYRA wanted to help increase the SRU post count ???? :rolleyes: :lol: :lol:

Just kidding pal. I didn't look at the entries yet so I don't know why half the field scratched. Any thoughts? Holding horses out for Saratoga, hoping for rain etc. ?

Exactly lol

I know there are some MTOs but not sure why the 8 isnt running.

cj
07-16-2015, 01:09 PM
Whats With the first race today? :bang:


Three are MTOs. No idea why they stopped grouping them at the end in outside post, very horse player unfriendly in my opinion.

cj
07-16-2015, 01:10 PM
Exactly lol

I know there are some MTOs but not sure why the 8 isnt running.

The other two are vet scratches. All this is available at Equibase as I'm sure you know.

Stillriledup
07-16-2015, 01:28 PM
The other two are vet scratches. All this is available at Equibase as I'm sure you know.

Vet scratches? :D

Ok.

cj
07-16-2015, 01:32 PM
Vet scratches? :D

Ok.

Well, that is about all you are going to get as I'm also sure you know. Believe it or not some vet scratches are actually vet scratches. Until real punishments are handed out for scratching things will continue as is.

Stillriledup
07-16-2015, 01:44 PM
Well, that is about all you are going to get as I'm also sure you know. Believe it or not some vet scratches are actually vet scratches. Until real punishments are handed out for scratching things will continue as is.

True. Nothing will change.

Thomas Roulston
07-17-2015, 12:50 PM
Here are a few things that can be done to reduce scratches:

1. If the official track condition for a carded dirt race is muddy or sloppy, give any horse who runs a "star"; at present this is only done for runners in carded turf races that get moved to the main track.

2. Bring back the Aqueduct summer meet, most recently contested in 1976 - and also move the dirt that is now on the Inner Dirt Track to the Outer Dirt Track, make the present Inner Dirt Track a turf course, as it was originally, then remove the rail that separates the current Inner Dirt Track and Turf Course, transforming what would then be a new super-wide turf course into a multi-lane turf course like the ones at Gulfstream, Arlington etc. The point being that if this is done, the Stewards could afford to let more soft-turf races remain on the grass at both the pre-Saratoga Belmont and Aqueduct meetings, leading to far fewer scratch-riddled off-the-turf races.

3. Tweak the purse distribution to ensure a mandatory minimum of 0.5% to all starters; at present a 6th-or-worse finisher in a 12-horse field receives just 0.28%, sometimes not even covering the losing jockey-mount fee (this most recently happened in the 9th race at Aqueduct on March 28). Ideally, separate descending shares can be created for every finisher; example, 60% to 1st, 19% to 2nd, 10% to 3rd, 5% to 4th, 2.5% to 5th, 1.5% to 6th, 1.1% to 7th and 0.9% to 8th in an 8-horse field.

cj
07-18-2015, 02:56 PM
Just tuned in for the fourth, first thing I see is both halves of the uncoupled Rice entry were scratched. You can't make this stuff up.

Thomas Roulston
07-24-2015, 07:45 PM
As if on cue, the unplaced horses in today's 10th race at Saratoga didn't even earn enough purse money to cover the losing jockey mount fee of $100: The 6th through 13th-place finishers - it was a 14-horse field - brought back just $72 for their connections, while Northern Call, who finished last, made $64.

Stillriledup
07-24-2015, 10:59 PM
As if on cue, the unplaced horses in today's 10th race at Saratoga didn't even earn enough purse money to cover the losing jockey mount fee of $100: The 6th through 13th-place finishers - it was a 14-horse field - brought back just $72 for their connections, while Northern Call, who finished last, made $64.

So owners gotta pay these little weasels a C note out of their pockets even if their horse makes 0 dollars? Is the 100 standard at all tracks?

EMD4ME
07-24-2015, 11:16 PM
So owners gotta pay these little weasels a C note out of their pockets even if their horse makes 0 dollars? Is the 100 standard at all tracks?

Jocks should pay for the right to earn the 10% and if they don't hit the top whatever that gets paid, in my sick brain, they should pay the owner $100 for losing :lol: :lol: :lol:

ronsmac
07-24-2015, 11:26 PM
As if on cue, the unplaced horses in today's 10th race at Saratoga didn't even earn enough purse money to cover the losing jockey mount fee of $100: The 6th through 13th-place finishers - it was a 14-horse field - brought back just $72 for their connections, while Northern Call, who finished last, made $64.Back in the day n.y. paid zero dollars if you weren't in the top four. I guess 72 bucks is better than zero. I believe mount fees were 35 bucks back then.

cj
10-23-2015, 03:42 PM
In true Linda Rice fashion, both La Verdad and Palace are likely to run at Belmont on NY Bred day and scratch from the Breeder's Cup next week :)

Spiderman
10-23-2015, 03:55 PM
The most irksome scratches are those announced between the time of the post parade and loading into the starting gate. I would be confident in betting that these type of scratches, especially at AQ, occur more frequently than at any other track.

Spiderman
10-23-2015, 04:01 PM
In true Linda Rice fashion, both La Verdad and Palace are likely to run at Belmont on NY Bred day and scratch from the Breeder's Cup next week :)

I noticed in the La Verdad race another Rice entrant, a 3-yr filly who is also a need-to-lead type. Same ownership. My guess is that La Verdad is scratched and goes to the BC. That would open the race for value plays.

cj
10-23-2015, 04:10 PM
I noticed in the La Verdad race another Rice entrant, a 3-yr filly who is also a need-to-lead type. Same ownership. My guess is that La Verdad is scratched and goes to the BC. That would open the race for value plays.


It was reported she is likely to run Saturday and not in the BC. She'll probably scratch the 3yo.

cj
10-23-2015, 04:10 PM
The most irksome scratches are those announced between the time of the post parade and loading into the starting gate. I would be confident in betting that these type of scratches, especially at AQ, occur more frequently than at any other track.

Aren't these vet scratches though? I can live with those over a breakdown any time.

Spiderman
10-23-2015, 04:15 PM
Aren't these vet scratches though? I can live with those over a breakdown any time.

They would most likely be vet scratches. But why are they happening more at NYRA than other tracks? Good intel from jockeys, discerning eyes of stewards and track vets who are stationed near the starting gate?

cj
10-23-2015, 04:16 PM
They would most likely be vet scratches. But why are they happening more at NYRA than other tracks? Good intel from jockeys, discerning eyes of vets who are stationed near the starting gate?

Definitely better scrutiny after a rash of breakdowns a couple years ago.

Spiderman
10-23-2015, 04:19 PM
Definitely better scrutiny after a rash of breakdowns a couple years ago.
It's all good to have that scrutiny. It should occur much earlier in the day.

cj
10-23-2015, 04:33 PM
It's all good to have that scrutiny. It should occur much earlier in the day.

You going to have them out jogging before the card for a vet inspection?

Spiderman
10-23-2015, 04:39 PM
You going to have them out jogging before the card for a vet inspection?
Are you suggesting that problem can only be detected by warm-up? How about assessing fines to trainers after the third time one of their entries scratches between the time frame of the post parade and post time?

cj
10-23-2015, 04:53 PM
Are you suggesting that problem can only be detected by warm-up? How about assessing fines to trainers after the third time one of their entries scratches between the time frame of the post parade and post time?

I'm hardly the person to ask why things are done the way they are at the track. I do know a lot comes out in the warm up that can't be detected otherwise. How could you know if it is a new issue or the trainer's fault? I have no idea personally.

Spiderman
10-23-2015, 05:05 PM
I'm hardly the person to ask why things are done the way they are at the track. I do know a lot comes out in the warm up that can't be detected otherwise. How could you know if it is a new issue or the trainer's fault? I have no idea personally.

Track management will maintain the status quo. They will get to keep their slice of the pie for bets on horizontal wagers when a horse in the last leg is scratched at the gate. One of several reasons why I have reduced betting at NYRA tracks.

EMD4ME
11-28-2015, 10:35 AM
What is up with today's 8th race (on the grass)???

8 scratches.

Don't mind the 2 MTO. That's normal.

3 VET scratches. 1 Steward Scratch.

Why are the 2 Also Eligibles scratched?

Talk about killing a full field, smack in the middle of CIGAR MILE day's late pick 4.