View Full Version : 2015 BC CLASSIC:THE ULTIMATE SHOWDOWN
NY BRED
06-12-2015, 08:59 AM
SUDDENLY, I HAVE A VISION FOR THE CLASSIC THAT WOULD CERTAINLY
BE A GRAND SLAM TO DRAW NEWBIES INTO THE GAME;
A SHOWDOWN BETWEEN AMERICAN PHAROAH, ANY OTHER
COMPETITION THAT WIL FIT INTO IN THE GATE, AND
A NEW "INTERNATIONAL" VISITOR NAMED :
CALIFORNIA CHROME!!
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :e
Robert Fischer
06-12-2015, 09:58 AM
that would be fun
burnsy
06-12-2015, 10:19 AM
Throw in Shared Belief (if possible) and Moreno in there and a couple others and that's a Classic! But here's the problem with your "newbie" theory. Horse racing has to be competitive on TV and they are not. Everything today hinges on TV media and some internet. The NFL is the best at it that's why it is so popular, its not just a game, its a TV show always, even off season. They try to put goofy, "fashionable" ice skaters on there (for racing) just to get the "newbies"....it doesn't work. Move on, try something better.
It used to be easy, a Triple Crown winner, one or two channels covering sports on Saturday and they would follow that horse all summer long........that will happen.....but there will be at least 15 other channels covering various other sporting events....that makes it hard and that means the "show" must be entertaining or there is no spotlight. The NFL and NBA have people that figured that out....many other sports have not and horse racing is near the bottom of it. Many times horse racing lacks the "players" but even when they have them, they have not figured out how to make it compelling TV. People make fun of Roger Goodell and criticize Adam Silver but they are not old fuddy dud dies behind the times, they understand the goofy drama is gold. Horse racing needs to get off their "high horse" and make stories (or ideas) that don't concern cheating or some Olympic skater in drag...........
I criticize a lot of things because I feel like most people have become sheep in this country. If you speak up, you are told you are negative. No, not correct, the ones that speak up are usually the ones with balls to care enough. This country started because of a revolt against taxes on tea for God sakes. Look at the crap people will take today, and if you say something against it.....somehow that's being negative?????? Meanwhile things are failing and sucking........oh that takes guts...? Its not going to get better by saying "don't be negative" .....go with the flow. Ignoring problems 99.9% of the time never makes them go away with anything in life. "shut up and everything will get better.".........is the biggest lie a man/woman can tell when things are not working...........been around long enough to figure this out.
Robert Fischer
06-12-2015, 10:52 AM
Throw in Shared Belief (if possible) and Moreno in there and a couple others and that's a Classic! But here's the problem with your "newbie" theory. Horse racing has to be competitive on TV and they are not. Everything today hinges on TV media and some internet. The NFL is the best at it that's why it is so popular, its not just a game, its a TV show always, even off season. They try to put goofy, "fashionable" ice skaters on there (for racing) just to get the "newbies"....it doesn't work. Move on, try something better.
It used to be easy, a Triple Crown winner, one or two channels covering sports on Saturday and they would follow that horse all summer long........that will happen.....but there will be at least 15 other channels covering various other sporting events....that makes it hard and that means the "show" must be entertaining or there is no spotlight. The NFL and NBA have people that figured that out....many other sports have not and horse racing is near the bottom of it. Many times horse racing lacks the "players" but even when they have them, they have not figured out how to make it compelling TV. People make fun of Roger Goodell and criticize Adam Silver but they are not old fuddy dud dies behind the times, they understand the goofy drama is gold. Horse racing needs to get off their "high horse" and make stories (or ideas) that don't concern cheating or some Olympic skater in drag...........
I criticize a lot of things because I feel like most people have become sheep in this country. If you speak up, you are told you are negative. No, not correct, the ones that speak up are usually the ones with balls to care enough. This country started because of a revolt against taxes on tea for God sakes. Look at the crap people will take today, and if you say something against it.....somehow that's being negative?????? Meanwhile things are failing and sucking........oh that takes guts...? Its not going to get better by saying "don't be negative" .....go with the flow. Ignoring problems 99.9% of the time never makes them go away with anything in life. "shut up and everything will get better.".........is the biggest lie a man/woman can tell when things are not working...........been around long enough to figure this out.
If AP is truly racing in the BCC and not going to be retired to injury soon, this is the perfect opportunity to advertise and expand sign-up bonuses prior to this race.
Bet $150 , get $150 in rebates
send some certain customers a free $10 on an ADW account number with instructions on how to deposit more.
The next step = get those new fans involved.
tucker6
06-12-2015, 11:30 AM
Why would Chrome be the ultimate test for AP? He hasn't won in 13 months. There are at least a half dozen better challengers for AP.
biggestal99
06-12-2015, 12:13 PM
Why would Chrome be the ultimate test for AP? He hasn't won in 13 months. There are at least a half dozen better challengers for AP.
Seems to me, he did okay as a 3 year old in the classic last year, with more experience
One should expect an improved performance at keeneland as a 4 year old.
Allan
DeltaLover
06-12-2015, 12:22 PM
I do not think anyone (except himself) can challenge AP for the BCC. If he gets there, chances are that BCC will be a one horse race.
Secondbest
06-12-2015, 12:32 PM
You never know.Another 3 year old could all of a sudden "get good". Or an older horse we all forgot about could hit his stride later on.Either way it will be the most anticipated BC in years if AP goes
RacingFan1992
06-12-2015, 12:37 PM
This is my dream field.
California Chrome
Tonalist
Bayern
American Pharoah
Moreno
Honor Code
Wise Dan
I would love to see Wise Dan win the Breeders' Cup Classic. I know the odds are stacked against him going a 1 1/4 mile on dirt since he is a grass sprinter. To see Honor Code and Wise Dan dueling in the stretch while American Pharoah and California Chrome can't catch a break would be amazing.
PaceAdvantage
06-12-2015, 01:25 PM
I know the odds are stacked against him going a 1 1/4 mile on dirt since he is a grass sprinter.Sprinter?
RacingFan1992
06-12-2015, 01:30 PM
Sprinter?
Isn't he? What is the longest distance he has run and won?
Grits
06-12-2015, 01:35 PM
This is my dream field.
California Chrome
Tonalist
Bayern
American Pharoah
Moreno
Honor Code
Wise Dan.
Maybe 3rd off the layoff will be the charm for him. He's raced twice this year, once Derby Day, once Belmont Day. He's finished last both times, beaten a combined 40 lengths.
PaceAdvantage
06-12-2015, 01:46 PM
Isn't he? What is the longest distance he has run and won?Last time I checked, the Grade 1 Woodford Reserve is 1 1/8 miles and he won that race twice.
He hasn't raced under a mile since 2011.
RacingFan1992
06-12-2015, 01:48 PM
I was so happy when Honor Code was running down the field in the Met Mile and Bayern finished dead last. Lol. Honor Code will always be my favorite horse.
RacingFan1992
06-12-2015, 01:49 PM
Last time I checked, the Grade 1 Woodford Reserve is 1 1/8 miles and he won that race twice.
He hasn't raced under a mile since 2011.
Oh okay. Yeah I thought a sprinter was 1 1/8 and less.
PaceAdvantage
06-12-2015, 01:52 PM
Oh okay. Yeah I thought a sprinter was 1 1/8 and less.That's an interesting thought.
Grits
06-12-2015, 01:54 PM
I do not think anyone (except himself) can challenge AP for the BCC. If he gets there, chances are that BCC will be a one horse race.
:lol: DL, c'mon. Seriously. If you're going to continue, at least, get your own material. You're a bit too close on this one. Decades ago, DRF writer and historian, Charles Hatton stated this, many years, now famous quote.
http://www.drf.com/news/hatton-provides-window-racings-golden-age
Secretariat galloped right into Hatton’s top five – at number one. After Secretariat’s Belmont victory, he decreed him the Horse of the Century. “His only point of reference is himself,” he wrote. Fittingly, Secretariat became Hatton’s last American Racing Manual subject. A stream of reflection meanders through the masterpiece.
wisconsin
06-12-2015, 02:11 PM
Oh okay. Yeah I thought a sprinter was 1 1/8 and less.
My smart alec response is that in today's age, anything over 6 1/2 furlongs is a route race :lol:
RacingFan1992
06-12-2015, 02:15 PM
My smart alec response is that in today's age, anything over 6 1/2 furlongs is a route race :lol:
Yeah it seems like it.
castaway01
06-12-2015, 02:15 PM
I do not think anyone (except himself) can challenge AP for the BCC. If he gets there, chances are that BCC will be a one horse race.
It's never that simple. Horses improve, decline, have bad days, preferred surfaces....virtually everyone gets beaten at some point, usually more than once.
California Chrome certainly won't be the horse that beats AP though.
NY BRED
06-12-2015, 04:46 PM
FRANKLY, I WAS TRYING TO STEER THIS COMMUNITY FROM THE
SECRETARIAT VS AMERICAN PHARAOH COMPARISON,
AND GET INTO REAL TIME COMPETITON
I CERTAINLY AGREE WITH THE OTHER MENTIONED ENTRIES.
THIS WOULD BE A HECK OF A RACE AND CERTAINLY
CREATE A RECORD WAGERING POOL.
THE REAL QUESTION, WHICH WE DON'T KNOW, IS
THE BENEFIT OR LOSS TO ZAYAT BASED UPON
THE FINAL PERFORMANCE(S) OF AP FROM NOW
UNTIL 12/31/15.
LATER..
dilanesp
06-12-2015, 05:00 PM
I think a lot of non-horse racing fans know who American Pharoah is. He's very marketable. I am skeptical that he makes the BC Classic, but if he did, it would be a big deal-- just like it was a big deal when 60 Minutes profiled Zenyatta before the BC.
He'd get publicity and NBC would get a decent rating.
whodoyoulike
06-12-2015, 06:02 PM
Isn't he? What is the longest distance he has run and won?
FYI, from Equibase....
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=7999682®istry=T
Fager Fan
06-12-2015, 06:54 PM
I do not think anyone (except himself) can challenge AP for the BCC. If he gets there, chances are that BCC will be a one horse race.
Because no other out there can run as fast as a 105 and 3 3/4. <sarcasm >
tanner12oz
06-12-2015, 07:43 PM
Oh okay. Yeah I thought a sprinter was 1 1/8 and less.
hmmm no
Cratos
06-12-2015, 08:12 PM
SUDDENLY, I HAVE A VISION FOR THE CLASSIC THAT WOULD CERTAINLY
BE A GRAND SLAM TO DRAW NEWBIES INTO THE GAME;
A SHOWDOWN BETWEEN AMERICAN PHAROAH, ANY OTHER
COMPETITION THAT WIL FIT INTO IN THE GATE, AND
A NEW "INTERNATIONAL" VISITOR NAMED :
CALIFORNIA CHROME!!
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :e
I don't believe the BCC have the impact intended by its founders.
Last year's BCC had a very good group of horses and won in a very good final time; yet the Ky Derby winner, California Chrome won HOTY with ease.
Grits
06-12-2015, 08:21 PM
I think a lot of non-horse racing fans know who American Pharoah is. He's very marketable. I am skeptical that he makes the BC Classic
Every right to be skeptical...the insurance premiums from last Saturday afternoon until he crosses the finish line for the last time are going to be nothing like experienced thus far.
Mr Zayat may, presently, be saying "we're going to do this because he's America's horse", still, no amount of winning from now thru BC is going to offset the insurance cost involved in keeping him racing--its going to, instead, pale by comparison.
When thinking back on Baffert's close ones....all were duds in the shed. Real Quiet, Silver Charm, War Emblem, Point Given. Hopefully, American Pharoah will perform much better.
From a bloodstock agent's page, interesting reading about fertility and death claims paid out.
http://www.gaylevanleer.com/ownership/insurance_apxA.htm
RacingFan1992
06-12-2015, 08:35 PM
hmmm no
What would you constitute as a sprinter? A mile or less, correct? When I think of a sprinter I thought of Bold Ruler who had distance limitations. People believed he could only handle 1 1/8 or less even though he won the Preakness.
Fager Fan
06-12-2015, 08:38 PM
What would you constitute as a sprinter?
A sprint is defined as anything under a mile, and a route is 1 mile and over.
Fager Fan
06-12-2015, 08:51 PM
Every right to be skeptical...the insurance premiums from last Saturday afternoon until he crosses the finish line for the last time are going to be nothing like experienced thus far.
Mr Zayat may, presently, be saying "we're going to do this because he's America's horse", still, no amount of winning from now thru BC is going to offset the insurance cost involved in keeping him racing--its going to, instead, pale by comparison.
Not true. Let's say the horse is valued at $30m, and let's also say Zayat doesn't qualify for a lower rate so has to pay 5%. That's $1.5m for a year's worth of coverage. He'll be retired, however, within 5 months, so ultimately he'll pay $625k in insurance if he races through the BC. Clearly, he can earn more than that if he wins a couple of races and much more if he wins the BC.
There's also the possibility that Coolmoore has already closed on and paid for the horse. There is a rumor that Zayat sold the breeding rights in January to make the balloon payment on his bankruptcy schedule. If this is true, then it's Coolmoore who'd be paying the insurance, as they're the ones who'd be out the money if he dies.
olddaddy
06-12-2015, 08:57 PM
This is my dream field.
California Chrome
Tonalist
Bayern
American Pharoah
Moreno
Honor Code
Wise Dan
I would love to see Wise Dan win the Breeders' Cup Classic. I know the odds are stacked against him going a 1 1/4 mile on dirt since he is a grass sprinter. To see Honor Code and Wise Dan dueling in the stretch while American Pharoah and California Chrome can't catch a break would be amazing.
Toast of New York also if he is able.
ronsmac
06-12-2015, 09:00 PM
Why would Chrome be the ultimate test for AP? He hasn't won in 13 months. There are at least a half dozen better challengers for AP.If you believe the Beyers, which are dicey at best. Chrome has a few numbers that are better than AP, so based on that he's a major threat I guess.
Grits
06-12-2015, 09:07 PM
Not true. Let's say the horse is valued at $30m, and let's also say Zayat doesn't qualify for a lower rate so has to pay 5%. That's $1.5m for a year's worth of coverage. He'll be retired, however, within 5 months, so ultimately he'll pay $625k in insurance if he races through the BC. Clearly, he can earn more than that if he wins a couple of races and much more if he wins the BC.
There's also the possibility that Coolmoore has already closed on and paid for the horse. There is a rumor that Zayat sold the breeding rights in January to make the balloon payment on his bankruptcy schedule. If this is true, then it's Coolmoore who'd be paying the insurance, as they're the ones who'd be out the money if he dies.
OK, Fager. Gotcha. The rumor has been noted, I heard the same. But how, a few days ago, right after the win, was Zayat able to say he has complete control, from now, up until the time of retirement.. if Coolmore is, indeed, paying the premiums? .... This man talks a lot!
Fager Fan
06-12-2015, 09:17 PM
OK, Fager. Gotcha. The rumor has been noted, I heard the same. But how, a few days ago, right after the win, was Zayat able to say he has complete control, from now, up until the time of retirement.. if Coolmore is, indeed, paying the premiums? .... This man talks a lot!
It's not entirely unusual for some contracts to pay before taking possession of the horse. It's most common when someone needs money now, or if receiving the money now entices someone to go ahead and sign a deal. It's also not entirely unusual to contract that the owner maintains management and pays all the training and associated costs until date of possession.
It's almost a bit comical that so many stories exist regarding the sale of this horse. I've seen everything from $8m in January to $20m before the Belmont. Oppenheimer in the TDN recently seemed sure it's the former.
Grits
06-12-2015, 09:20 PM
;) Thanks, Fager. We may never know, but then again, they may tell it on Twitter. They do, everything else. :lol:
Fager Fan
06-12-2015, 10:13 PM
;) Thanks, Fager. We may never know, but then again, they may tell it on Twitter. They do, everything else. :lol:
That's exactly why I find it funny. I'm thinking the confusion is due to the Zayats telling various stories like they did with the naming of the colt, Zayat's education, etc. :lol:
Redboard
06-12-2015, 10:46 PM
Article on Forbes estimating that AP is worth $50 million.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2015/06/06/american-pharoah-becomes-the-first-horse-to-win-the-triple-crown-in-37-years/?utm_campaign=Forbes&utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social&utm_channel=Investing&linkId=14761254
Both Coolmore and Zayat are being mum about the details, but, apparently it’s complicated with “incentives” or “kickers” that would come into play and increase the price if American Pharoah were to win additional Grade 1 races like the Haskell, Travers and Breeders’ Cup Classic, or be voted Horse of the Year. Plus Zayat, apparently, retains a percentage of AP’s breeding rights, so I would think that they both will be paying the insurance(on $50 million, you insure your house for what it’s worth, not what you paid for it, right?)
Fager Fan
06-13-2015, 12:04 AM
Article on Forbes estimating that AP is worth $50 million.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2015/06/06/american-pharoah-becomes-the-first-horse-to-win-the-triple-crown-in-37-years/?utm_campaign=Forbes&utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social&utm_channel=Investing&linkId=14761254
Both Coolmore and Zayat are being mum about the details, but, apparently it’s complicated with “incentives” or “kickers” that would come into play and increase the price if American Pharoah were to win additional Grade 1 races like the Haskell, Travers and Breeders’ Cup Classic, or be voted Horse of the Year. Plus Zayat, apparently, retains a percentage of AP’s breeding rights, so I would think that they both will be paying the insurance(on $50 million, you insure your house for what it’s worth, not what you paid for it, right?)
I guess we'll find out, but I heard he sold the whole horse and didn't keep an interest. In that case, he could've contracted for a handful of breeding rights for the owner, trainer, and perhaps the jockey and agent. That's pretty standard.
It's all interesting speculation and we'll see what happens when they start booking mares. His pedigree is ok but not outstanding. He's not by a sure of sires. Take out AP, and POTN doesn't really have any other runners of note and he drops out of the top 50 sires. And finally, based on his yearling photo, he's an ok individual but not outstanding (and I don't buy for a second that he was told the colt would bring a million and some minor scrape was why they couldn't even get a bidder at $300k on a supposed million dollar yearling).
So once the fanfare dies down a little and they look at this stallion prospect the same way they do others, what will be the actual clamor for him and thus his price? I can think of several others more attractive physically and on paper who will stand for less (and maybe far less) like Honor Code.
NY BRED
06-13-2015, 09:56 AM
HOLDS ON, JUST HAD ANOTHER "INTERESTING" THOUGHT.
IF (99-1) AP &CC HAPPENED TO GO IN THE BC CLASSIC,
WHO WOULD RIDE CC?
BETTER YET, WOULD ART STILL BE THE TRAINER?
:eek:
RacingFan1992
06-13-2015, 10:06 AM
HOLDS ON, JUST HAD ANOTHER "INTERESTING" THOUGHT.
IF (99-1) AP &CC HAPPENED TO GO IN THE BC CLASSIC,
WHO WOULD RIDE CC?
BETTER YET, WOULD ART STILL BE THE TRAINER?
:eek:
Oh that would be awesome. I wonder who Victor would chose. I never thought of that. Be pretty weird if it did happen.
elhelmete
06-13-2015, 11:01 AM
If AP is truly racing in the BCC and not going to be retired to injury soon, this is the perfect opportunity to advertise and expand sign-up bonuses prior to this race.
Bet $150 , get $150 in rebates
send some certain customers a free $10 on an ADW account number with instructions on how to deposit more.
The next step = get those new fans involved.
These sorts of promotions are available often...
Valuist
06-13-2015, 11:29 AM
Oh okay. Yeah I thought a sprinter was 1 1/8 and less.
He actually ran in the Breeders Cup Sprint one year; I believe it was either 2009 or 2010; he was beaten about 2 lengths.
He almost won the Foster a few years back on dirt. This horse is a lot more versatile than most believe.
Robert Fischer
06-13-2015, 11:41 AM
These sorts of promotions are available often...
Thanks buddy.
So, I'm suggesting that we capitalize on AP's TV-time, actively recruiting players, and not just run human interest stories.
infrontby1
06-13-2015, 02:29 PM
This is my dream field.
California Chrome
Tonalist
Bayern
American Pharoah
Moreno
Honor Code
Wise Dan
I would love to see Wise Dan win the Breeders' Cup Classic. I know the odds are stacked against him going a 1 1/4 mile on dirt since he is a grass sprinter. To see Honor Code and Wise Dan dueling in the stretch while American Pharoah and California Chrome can't catch a break would be amazing.
Keep an eye out for Kentuckian also if he makes it fine through the summer.
This developing 3 year old means business
iceknight
06-13-2015, 03:19 PM
Oh that would be awesome. I wonder who Victor would chose. I never thought of that. Be pretty weird if it did happen. There's not much doubt on who he would choose. I am willing to bet that he would choose AP -(merely) the prestige of riding a horse that is a TC winner is greater. But besides that, AP's wins (against the 'weakest group of 3 yr olds) has been better than CC's wins in KY, Preakness over (the "weakest" group of 3 yr olds that year)
Also, on Wise Dan, he has won the gr 1 Clark H on dirt (1 1/8 mi) and had a head loss to Ron the Greek in the Stephen Foster Gr 1. he did nt win the Foster, only the Clark. Yes, he is very versatile, Valuist!
RacingFan1992
06-13-2015, 03:32 PM
I just want to see Wise Dan whip the shit out of everyone in the BCC. He is a classic and I hope for a speedy comeback.
davew
06-13-2015, 04:50 PM
I checked around and found these futures - realizing 3/4's probably won't start and all bets action ...
American Pharoah +200
California Chrome +1000
Palace Malice +1000
Honor Code +1400
Tonalist +1400
Lea +1800
Bayern +2000
Constitution +2000
Dortmund +2000
Firing Line +2000
Frosted +2000
Toast of New York +2000
Wicked Strong +2500
Commissioner +3000
Materiality +3000
Moreno +3000
Texas Red +3000
Carpe Diem +4000
Hoppertunity +4000
Red Rifle +5000
Upstart +5000
Competitive Edge +7500
Tapiture +7500
Untapable +10000
what is the deal with all of the 'win and you are in' races being held, are they for the classic?
PaceAdvantage
06-16-2015, 02:48 PM
I just want to see Wise Dan whip the shit out of everyone in the BCC. He is a classic and I hope for a speedy comeback.Sprinter finally stretching out...tough angle in the BCC...
castaway01
06-16-2015, 03:07 PM
I just want to see Wise Dan whip the shit out of everyone in the BCC. He is a classic and I hope for a speedy comeback.
Wise Dan has had an awesome career, but if that happens it will be (to steal a line from Durkin) the greatest comeback since Lazarus.
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