Stupidest question ever...about PP's.

[Laminarman]

New to this. I don't have ready access to a track so use Twinspires. I'm more familiar with DRF than Bris...sooooo...for those folks who wager on line, do you purchase a DRF for each track you play each day? If I want to wager at three to four tracks in a day, at 3 bucks a pop that eats into profits (which I'm not producing now anyways!!) I'm "stepping back" and betting wins and exactas for a long time to learn what I don't know and to keep records. I have ZERO success without a PP of some sort or so it seems. If I'm paying $30 a week for DRF's that's a lot to spend on a steep learning curve that may last years. Am I missing something or is some of this info available for free? I have looked at Equibase but I like a printed DRF to mark up and carry around. Also, what's the best free site to watch race replays? Thanks folks.

[thespaah]

New to this. I don't have ready access to a track so use Twinspires. I'm more familiar with DRF than Bris...sooooo...for those folks who wager on line, do you purchase a DRF for each track you play each day? If I want to wager at three to four tracks in a day, at 3 bucks a pop that eats into profits (which I'm not producing now anyways!!) I'm "stepping back" and betting wins and exactas for a long time to learn what I don't know and to keep records. I have ZERO success without a PP of some sort or so it seems. If I'm paying $30 a week for DRF's that's a lot to spend on a steep learning curve that may last years. Am I missing something or is some of this info available for free? I have looked at Equibase but I like a printed DRF to mark up and carry around. Also, what's the best free site to watch race replays? Thanks folks.
Perhaps as you increase your frequency( in days) that you wager, you could look into purchasing PP's on a monthly or other bulk time basis...
There is a member here who is an everyday player.
Dave Schwartz.....That's his username. Do a member search and PM him...He may have some advice...Tell him "thespaah" sent you....

[Laminarman]

Perhaps as you increase your frequency( in days) that you wager, you could look into purchasing PP's on a monthly or other bulk time basis...
There is a member here who is an everyday player.
Dave Schwartz.....That's his username. Do a member search and PM him...He may have some advice...Tell him "thespaah" sent you....

Thank you!

[whodoyoulike]

Check out these websites which offers free BRIS pp's. One presents pp's by trainer and in date order and the other in date and track order.

Good luck and have fun.

http://www.horse-races.net/library/links-pastperformances.htm#free

http://www.trks2day.com/wedday.html

[Clocker]

New to this. I don't have ready access to a track so use Twinspires. I'm more familiar with DRF than Bris...sooooo...for those folks who wager on line, do you purchase a DRF for each track you play each day? If I want to wager at three to four tracks in a day, at 3 bucks a pop that eats into profits


Also, what's the best free site to watch race replays? Thanks folks.

Basic BRIS PPs are $1 per card. The big thing they don't have are Beyers. I and many others prefer them. It is just a matter of getting use to them. They have good documentation on line.

Many tracks offer free replays at their web sites. The NY tracks are all at NYRA.com. The California tracks are at calracing.com. The latter requires free registration.

[thaskalos]

New to this. I don't have ready access to a track so use Twinspires. I'm more familiar with DRF than Bris...sooooo...for those folks who wager on line, do you purchase a DRF for each track you play each day? If I want to wager at three to four tracks in a day, at 3 bucks a pop that eats into profits (which I'm not producing now anyways!!) I'm "stepping back" and betting wins and exactas for a long time to learn what I don't know and to keep records. I have ZERO success without a PP of some sort or so it seems. If I'm paying $30 a week for DRF's that's a lot to spend on a steep learning curve that may last years. Am I missing something or is some of this info available for free? I have looked at Equibase but I like a printed DRF to mark up and carry around. Also, what's the best free site to watch race replays? Thanks folks.
If you want to cut costs during your educational years...keep the DRF, and slow down on your betting. Betting 3 to 4 tracks right from the start is guaranteed to cost you much more than $30 a day.

[Poindexter]

New to this. I don't have ready access to a track so use Twinspires. I'm more familiar with DRF than Bris...sooooo...for those folks who wager on line, do you purchase a DRF for each track you play each day? If I want to wager at three to four tracks in a day, at 3 bucks a pop that eats into profits (which I'm not producing now anyways!!) I'm "stepping back" and betting wins and exactas for a long time to learn what I don't know and to keep records. I have ZERO success without a PP of some sort or so it seems. If I'm paying $30 a week for DRF's that's a lot to spend on a steep learning curve that may last years. Am I missing something or is some of this info available for free? I have looked at Equibase but I like a printed DRF to mark up and carry around. Also, what's the best free site to watch race replays? Thanks folks.

If you want a free daily racing form, I thing you just ave to open account with drf bets and bet to receive one. Twinspires gets you a free bris ultimate pp's when you bet with them(they also have free replays for most tracks on their site). TVG I believe gets you free TimeformUSA when you bet with them. Just buy a cheap laser printer, some generic replacement cartridges, some paper and print away. After about 4 weeks your printer will be paid for and you will start saving 30 bucks a week. Or you can do like the modern players and mark of some kind of ipad. Personally I use Twinspires and Bris. I like to print out my past performances. Haven't missed the Beyers a bit.

[Laminarman]

If you want to cut costs during your educational years...keep the DRF, and slow down on your betting. Betting 3 to 4 tracks right from the start is guaranteed to cost you much more than $30 a day.

Thank you Thaskalos, I enjoy your posts. The only reason I would do more than one track is I pretty much have zero success with maiden races and the lack of PP data I think is hurting me at this stage. So I search for races that I have a better chance of success at. I am somewhat dependent on Beyer figures to help with my "toss out" selections (on maidens I keep tossing out the dang winners...) I am basically stepping back and doing just win bets and maybe an exacta or two here and there. Can't seem to break about a 30% win rate and I ain't buying a house in Hawaii anytime soon with what I'm bringing in.

[Laminarman]

If you want a free daily racing form, I thing you just ave to open account with drf bets and bet to receive one. Twinspires gets you a free bris ultimate pp's when you bet with them(they also have free replays for most tracks on their site). TVG I believe gets you free TimeformUSA when you bet with them. Just buy a cheap laser printer, some generic replacement cartridges, some paper and print away. After about 4 weeks your printer will be paid for and you will start saving 30 bucks a week. Or you can do like the modern players and mark of some kind of ipad. Personally I use Twinspires and Bris. I like to print out my past performances. Haven't missed the Beyers a bit.

Thank you as well Pointdexter. I have gotten used to DRF PP's and the Bris are nice, but it seems to be muddying the water so to say. I feel I need to spend time with the DRF then time with the Bris and see if either one is better for me.

[duncan04]

If you want a free daily racing form, I thing you just ave to open account with drf bets and bet to receive one. Twinspires gets you a free bris ultimate pp's when you bet with them(they also have free replays for most tracks on their site). TVG I believe gets you free TimeformUSA when you bet with them. Just buy a cheap laser printer, some generic replacement cartridges, some paper and print away. After about 4 weeks your printer will be paid for and you will start saving 30 bucks a week. Or you can do like the modern players and mark of some kind of ipad. Personally I use Twinspires and Bris. I like to print out my past performances. Haven't missed the Beyers a bit.

Just a heads up. If you want the "free" DRF form you have to bet $25. If you want the DRF program, you need to bet $2. With the program you don't get Beyer figures or anything you get in the printed form.


this is what you get with a $2 wager. http://static.drf.com/PDFs/sample/BELDRPPPSample.pdf

[arw629]

Do yourself a favor and never use a drf again...bris is the way to go

[Ray2000]

Laminarman

Just a idea for a new comer considering "Betting the Horses"

Don't overlook (or laugh off) the option of "learning the game" by playing the Harness Tracks.

The race distance is almost always one mile, the raceway horses get in a race almost once a week compared to once a month in T-bred, which makes it easier to establish form cycles, the 2 biggest factors after current form are driver ability and post position, and FREE programs are available for Canadian tracks and special USTA promotions on Pick 4 races at the biggest tracks in USA.

Since a newcomer needs to learn bankroll management rather than "pickin' winners", Harness offers a great starting point. Hell, you may even stay with the Dark-Side instead of going to the flats... :)


Good Luck with your journey .... :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

Laminarman

Just a idea for a new comer considering "Betting the Horses"

Don't overlook (or laugh off) the option of "learning the game" by playing the Harness Tracks.

The race distance is almost always one mile, the raceway horses get in a race almost once a week compared to once a month in T-bred, which makes it easier to establish form cycles, the 2 biggest factors after current form are driver ability and post position, and FREE programs are available for Canadian tracks and special USTA promotions on Pick 4 races at the biggest tracks in USA.

Since a newcomer needs to learn bankroll management rather than "pickin' winners", Harness offers a great starting point. Hell, you may even stay with the Dark-Side instead of going to the flats... :)


Good Luck with your journey .... :ThmbUp:

God forbid! :)

[cj]

Laminarman

Just a idea for a new comer considering "Betting the Horses"

Don't overlook (or laugh off) the option of "learning the game" by playing the Harness Tracks.

The race distance is almost always one mile, the raceway horses get in a race almost once a week compared to once a month in T-bred, which makes it easier to establish form cycles, the 2 biggest factors after current form are driver ability and post position, and FREE programs are available for Canadian tracks and special USTA promotions on Pick 4 races at the biggest tracks in USA.

Since a newcomer needs to learn bankroll management rather than "pickin' winners", Harness offers a great starting point. Hell, you may even stay with the Dark-Side instead of going to the flats... :)


Good Luck with your journey .... :ThmbUp:

Too much depends on humans for me, particularly the drivers.

[cnollfan]

Bris and TwinSpires have an arrangement. If you download a track's Bris pp's and place at least one bet from that track that day on TwinSpires, your Bris pp's are paid for.

I believe that TimeformUS has a similar agreement with TVG but I am not sure about that. I am a yearly subscriber to TimeformUS so it doesn't matter to me, and TVG is not offered in my state anyway.

Bris also has a maximum per-day charge no matter how many tracks you download. As far as I know DRF does not offer this unlimited feature.

FWIW I use both TimeformUS and Bris in tandem and don't anticipate a time when I would rely on just one. Each product has strengths and weaknesses.

[Laminarman]

Why is it that I think DRF is "the Bible" and am not real willing to change? Maybe because when I was a teen I remember my father using them the few times we went up to Finger Lakes. Or maybe because they're more ubiquitous.

I am totally shitty at this handicapping thing by the way. I do my best and then BAM some horse with the slowest Beyers and no established form comes out of nowhere to win. Or some middle of the pack horse with nothing in particular wins. I do a "post mortem" trying to figure what I over looked and I find nothing. My basic attempt is this:

*Eliminate any horses based on very poor speed figure
*Highlight those with the highest recent speeds and figure out if there are anomalies with recent race speeds- watch replays
*Highlight those horses with good performance at todays race distance and surface and condition
*Look for change in class up or down
*Look at trainer success, jockey success
*Look at the chart for races that might tell me something about my "horses of interest"
*Do not pay attention to weight
*Do not pay attention to morning line or live odds, but use that to affect my betting to look for value
*Skip betting if there's no value or I am totally unsure
*Make my bet (usually a $2 win or place bet to track my success and learn)
* &@^@!!! LOSE

*Rinse, repeat....

This is getting very frustrating. I'm wondering if I'm just better off using Twinspires Profit line rank and betting the top horse each time to win or place. Thanks for your help guys. Maybe I'll try Bris for a while and see if that takes away some suckage.

[whodoyoulike]

Why is it that I think DRF is "the Bible" and am not real willing to change? Maybe because when I was a teen I remember my father using them the few times we went up to Finger Lakes. Or maybe because they're more ubiquitous. .. Maybe I'll try Bris for a while and see if that takes away some suckage.


Because it was only until a few years ago DRF was considered "the Bible" by everyone who bet on the races then when DRF realized this, they kept raising their prices every couple years (they may have even raised it twice one year). Money (cost) will change people's beliefs very quickly.

[whodoyoulike]

...

I am totally shitty at this handicapping thing by the way. I do my best and then BAM some horse with the slowest Beyers and no established form comes out of nowhere to win. Or some middle of the pack horse with nothing in particular wins. I do a "post mortem" trying to figure what I over looked and I find nothing. My basic attempt is this: ...

I re-read your list.

Have you ever read a book on pace handicapping?

I have no idea why PA gave his site this name but take this moment to think about it ....

There are several good pace books out there, you should pick one of the more popular ones. I'm not pushing any one in particular. The one I chose was pretty good but I adapted only some of the concepts to what made sense to me.

[DeltaLover]

My advice to the OP is not completely ignore the DRF and focus on creating his own historical data base and start using electronic bris pps. With an expense of a less than a thousand, you can jump start your setup downloading a year of past results for the main tracks of interest and start playing with the data.. You should also build a sense about track variant and cross distance and track time comparisons and develop a system to measure the impact of basic handicapping factors.. By doing so, you should quickly develop a good sense of handicapping that combined with the sufficient bankroll and betting approach will allow you to improve a a horse player and possibly even become a local hero among your fellow horse bettors!

[Laminarman]

I re-read your list.

Have you ever read a book on pace handicapping?

I have no idea why PA gave his site this name but take this moment to think about it ....

There are several good pace books out there, you should pick one of the more popular ones. I'm not pushing any one in particular. The one I chose was pretty good but I adapted only some of the concepts to what made sense to me.

I have read (don't laugh...) Horse Race Betting for Dummies and now am about to start the section on Beyers "Speed" book on Pace, funny you mention that. I have not paid attention to pace and I'm not even sure what it is. Now I'm embarrassed : )

[Laminarman]

My advice to the OP is not completely ignore the DRF and focus on creating his own historical data base and start using electronic bris pps. With an expense of a less than a thousand, you can jump start your setup downloading a year of past results for the main tracks of interest and start playing with the data.. You should also build a sense about track variant and cross distance and track time comparisons and develop a system to measure the impact of basic handicapping factors.. By doing so, you should quickly develop a good sense of handicapping that combined with the sufficient bankroll and betting approach will allow you to improve a a horse player and possibly even become a local hero among your fellow horse bettors!

I'm getting the feeling there is a LOT more to this than I realize. I think I need more books and more reading. I'm willing to do that because I find the whole thing fascinating. I like casinos but I never yearn to plop money down on a number or pull a handle and hope the house is kind. I am only trying to be smarter than you guys but for the time being I'm wearing a dunce cap.

[DeltaLover]

I'm getting the feeling there is a LOT more to this than I realize. I think I need more books and more reading. I'm willing to do that because I find the whole thing fascinating. I like casinos but I never yearn to plop money down on a number or pull a handle and hope the house is kind. I am only trying to be smarter than you guys but for the time being I'm wearing a dunce cap.

Forget casinos.. Horse racing is the most sophisticated form of gambling and it simply cannot be compared with any (YES I MEAN ANY INCLUDING BLACK JACK AND POKER) casino game... Casinos are good, when you have a new girlfriend and you want to impress her a little and spend some time having fun, nothing more...

As far as books are going, don't expect to find a lot of help on them.. Some of them that you might want to study are all the Beyer's books, Modern Pace Handicapping, The Handicapper's Condition Book .. Some readings about breeding might also be helpful although a little intangible for a novice handicapper.

After learning the basics (which even the weakest bettors are aware about) the rest needs to be your personal research using your data bases and more importantly constantly thinking about the game and how you can beat it.

[thaskalos]

I have read (don't laugh...) Horse Race Betting for Dummies and now am about to start the section on Beyers "Speed" book on Pace, funny you mention that. I have not paid attention to pace and I'm not even sure what it is. Now I'm embarrassed : )

Here you go. This will bring you up to par:

http://www.amazon.com/Pace-makes-race-Tom-Hambleton/dp/B0006PH0UM/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1433806584&sr=1-4&keywords=pace+handicapping

[Laminarman]

Here you go. This will bring you up to par:

http://www.amazon.com/Pace-makes-race-Tom-Hambleton/dp/B0006PH0UM/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1433806584&sr=1-4&keywords=pace+handicapping

That was too easy. I have an Amazon Prime membership. It's on it's way. Thank you.

[pondman]

Most online wagering sites refund your money on basic DRF and Brisnet, if you make a $2 wager.

[Laminarman]

I found this out, thank you. I use Twinspires, they'll refund Brisnet if I bet. That's a no brainer.

[Tall One]

That was too easy. I have an Amazon Prime membership. It's on it's way. Thank you.



Thanks for the recommendation, thask. Clicked the link, and I just bought the last one in stock. eighth_pole_press is probably wondering what the hell is going on.. :)

Laminarman, we're in the same boat, bud. I'm back to the basics trying to pinpoint strengths and weaknesses in my wagering and 'cappin. Pace is an aspect I know I need to spend a lot of time studying and comprehending.

Best of luck that way. :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

I hope you guys bought the paperback and not the hardcover.

[pondman]

I continually think in this order:

How is the trainer going to make money in this race? Is the trainer got the horse in the right spot? Is he a flim-flam man, shipping a ringer? Have they got the right surface?

How is this jockey going to make money in this race? Does he have a horse that can either move early or move late? This is a pace consideration, and a strategy consideration. You will find a number of counter intuitive spots for your money. In other words the crowds looking for horses on a turf route to close. And the crowd generally doesn't like a horse with early pace on a turf route. But you find there are a number of plays per week, where the horses have a nice early break and enough to stay on the lead, and you get 10-1 or 20-1. They might night win but 35% or so percent of the time. But when you do the math, there might be enough of these scenarios to make this your long term bet of choice, every time. You've got to look for something special and study it. Look for those spots.

When it comes to speed, it something that I consider to be of very little importance. Except when you see a horse all of a sudden come to life. It done nothing, a new jockey gets on, and gets the horse going in the right direction. You sometime can make a little money out of the next race.

Everyone is going to play the game a little different. I know excellent horizontal players, that hit routinely. The can fill their pocket with money. That isn't may game. I'm looking for a spot that I can load up on, and make enough to buy a car when it wins. There are more of these in the game, if you throw away what you read about, and find them.

I also think new people should avoid the grind. I hate to see them sit down with a bunch of old time exacta boxers and start boxing a bunch of speed ratings in every race. You'll waste your time and money doing that.

[whodoyoulike]

I have read (don't laugh...) Horse Race Betting for Dummies and now am about to start the section on Beyers "Speed" book on Pace, funny you mention that. I have not paid attention to pace and I'm not even sure what it is. Now I'm embarrassed : )

I read Beyer's Speed book a long time ago and I don't remember his comments regarding Pace at the moment. I was referring to one of the dedicated books written on Pace probably in the last 20 - 25 years because I think the concepts have changed. When you read about Pace, hopefully you'll realize that there is a lot of strategy involved with both the horse and jockeys. It will actually make handicapping fun which is why I always hope people have fun. If you're not having fun, just find something else which is.

[whodoyoulike]

Hello Pondman, you don't know me but I'm glad to see you posting again. I hope everything is okay.

[Tall One]

I hope you guys bought the paperback and not the hardcover.



Definitely..but I had to double check after your post. :)

For that asking price, that had to be the safe copy original.

[pondman]

Hello Pondman, you don't know me but I'm glad to see you posting again. I hope everything is okay.

And Hello to you whodoyoulike. Things are fine. I've picked up a few more tricks in the last couple years. And am hoping to talk turf.

[Laminarman]

Thanks for the recommendation, thask. Clicked the link, and I just bought the last one in stock. eighth_pole_press is probably wondering what the hell is going on.. :)

Laminarman, we're in the same boat, bud. I'm back to the basics trying to pinpoint strengths and weaknesses in my wagering and 'cappin. Pace is an aspect I know I need to spend a lot of time studying and comprehending.

Best of luck that way. :ThmbUp:

Best of luck to you too!!! I got the paperback version. I think Beyer's book "Speed" reads pretty easy, packed with information. Assimilating it all is a tall order.

[DeltaLover]

Best of luck to you too!!! I got the paperback version. I think Beyer's book "Speed" reads pretty easy, packed with information. Assimilating it all is a tall order.


One of the Beyer's books you absolutely need to read is the following:

http://i59.tinypic.com/2cnz9qq.jpg

[Laminarman]

I also think new people should avoid the grind. I hate to see them sit down with a bunch of old time exacta boxers and start boxing a bunch of speed ratings in every race. You'll waste your time and money doing that.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the great reply. I can see how grinding to win a buck here and there can get old since it's not exactly a two minute job to find a winner. I'm not sure using speed ratings are helping me at all, but I'm sure I don't weight them as heavily as others do.

[Laminarman]

I read Beyer's Speed book a long time ago and I don't remember his comments regarding Pace at the moment. I was referring to one of the dedicated books written on Pace probably in the last 20 - 25 years because I think the concepts have changed. When you read about Pace, hopefully you'll realize that there is a lot of strategy involved with both the horse and jockeys. It will actually make handicapping fun which is why I always hope people have fun. If you're not having fun, just find something else which is.

Fun sounds good right about now to be honest.

[whodoyoulike]

I'm getting the feeling there is a LOT more to this than I realize. I think I need more books and more reading. I'm willing to do that because I find the whole thing fascinating. I like casinos but I never yearn to plop money down on a number or pull a handle and hope the house is kind. I am only trying to be smarter than you guys but for the time being I'm wearing a dunce cap.


Another thing while you're reading these books since it will take some time to digest ---- build a nice bank roll. Then whenever you're ready, start small and slowly increase as your confidence builds because you will lose at the start. This game takes a while to get comfortable and you'll probably have to find your betting comfort level as in any gambling game.

[Robert Goren]

Why is it that I think DRF is "the Bible" and am not real willing to change? Maybe because when I was a teen I remember my father using them the few times we went up to Finger Lakes. Or maybe because they're more ubiquitous.

I am totally shitty at this handicapping thing by the way. I do my best and then BAM some horse with the slowest Beyers and no established form comes out of nowhere to win. Or some middle of the pack horse with nothing in particular wins. I do a "post mortem" trying to figure what I over looked and I find nothing. My basic attempt is this:

*Eliminate any horses based on very poor speed figure
*Highlight those with the highest recent speeds and figure out if there are anomalies with recent race speeds- watch replays
*Highlight those horses with good performance at todays race distance and surface and condition
*Look for change in class up or down
*Look at trainer success, jockey success
*Look at the chart for races that might tell me something about my "horses of interest"
*Do not pay attention to weight
*Do not pay attention to morning line or live odds, but use that to affect my betting to look for value
*Skip betting if there's no value or I am totally unsure
*Make my bet (usually a $2 win or place bet to track my success and learn)
* &@^@!!! LOSE

*Rinse, repeat....

This is getting very frustrating. I'm wondering if I'm just better off using Twinspires Profit line rank and betting the top horse each time to win or place. Thanks for your help guys. Maybe I'll try Bris for a while and see if that takes away some suckage.You can not pay $7 or $8 for a hard copy of the DRF and only bet $2 a race. You are getting eaten alive. There are all sorts of printers out there and you could with a little effort find one that will print the same size as a form. There are currently at least 5 providers of past performances. They all use equibase information as the basis for there PPs. I do not believe there is anybody using Trakus yet, but it just a matter of time before somebody does. The problem for the $2 bettor is that you can a pretty good Brisnet PP by betting at twinspires or a 1980s style DRF at xpressbet. but if you want a hard copy you have to print them yourself and ink is not cheap. Even so printing cheaper than buying a hard copy of the DRF. Here they a booklet which sells for $3 at the track which has basic PPs for the track the simulcast. Almost everybody at the track goes that route. I know a guy who has a tablet which he uses only for PPs and bets through his desktop which he has hooked up to a 50 TV for a monitor. I think that is a fairly common way of handling it. Some may even have a 3rd computer which has some sort of handicapping program on it. I myself just settle for jumping back and forth from different windows I have open on my desktop.

[Robert Goren]

There is only book I can recommend and then only to the relative new bettor.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Best-Thoroughbred-Handicapping-Leading/dp/0970014775
Just be sure to get the 2003 edition. There is an earlier addition. You read up on the most common ideas and then pick one or two you want to with and buy books on them.

[whodoyoulike]

You can not pay $7 or $8 for a hard copy of the DRF and only bet $2 a race. You are getting eaten alive. There are all sorts of printers out there and you could with a little effort find one that will print the same size as a form...

The problem for the $2 bettor is that you can a pretty good Brisnet PP by betting at twinspires or a 1980s style DRF at xpressbet. but if you want a hard copy you have to print them yourself and ink is not cheap. Even so printing cheaper than buying a hard copy of the DRF...

Robert, printing pp's from on-line sources were expensive for me when I had an ink jet printer (ink cart were $80 per) but, when I bought a cheap laser printer which automatically printed both sides, the costs decreased dramatically for me. You can mark it up all you want and even print a second copy just because you can (actually I forgot I already printed it).

[Laminarman]

You can not pay $7 or $8 for a hard copy of the DRF and only bet $2 a race. You are getting eaten alive. Even so printing cheaper than buying a hard copy of the DRF. Here they a booklet which sells for $3 at the track which has basic PPs for the track the simulcast.

Thanks Robert. I do print out my PP's. I have my own business and about 15 laser printers and that's not my obstacle. It's managing my bankroll and learning how to win that's the obstacle. You're right though, if I set a budget of, say, $100 a day and spend ten percent of that on handicapping products I'm losing out of the gate. I read somewhere that it's better to be a good bettor than a good handicapper and I really think I'm not good at crafting winning tickets when I feel confident.

This forum is amazing, thank you, everyone.

[Clocker]

A potential issue to be aware of with the "Pace Makes the Race" book is that they calculate early and late pace figures, but then they combine the two to get a "total pace rating". Michael Pizzolla was a co-author of the first version of the book, but apparently "uninvited" to participate in the rewrite of the current edition. He and others say that when you combine two pace figures, you don't end up with another pace figure, you end up with a modified speed figure.

Coincidentally, pandy's new thread in this forum, "Advanced Pace Handicapping", addresses this issue. I found "Pace Makes the Race" to be a good introduction to pace figures, and to using them to understand the pace and shape of the race. I did not find the total pace rating to be useful. The discussion in pandy's thread will help in the application of those figures.

[thaskalos]

Thanks Robert. I do print out my PP's. I have my own business and about 15 laser printers and that's not my obstacle. It's managing my bankroll and learning how to win that's the obstacle. You're right though, if I set a budget of, say, $100 a day and spend ten percent of that on handicapping products I'm losing out of the gate. I read somewhere that it's better to be a good bettor than a good handicapper and I really think I'm not good at crafting winning tickets when I feel confident.

This forum is amazing, thank you, everyone.

Don't believe it. It is only through "good handicapping" that you can determine which are the "good bets". You can't survive in this game if you aren't a very good handicapper.

[whodoyoulike]

... It's managing my bankroll and learning how to win that's the obstacle ...

When and if you figure out proper bankroll management ...... Please let us know.

Btw, there are many ways to win in this game and your list is good but, I like to have some type of control in my methodology. I prefer one which is highly predictive not that I ever have absolute certainty but enough of a high probability that the race will play out as I see it (a pace scenario).

A good example of pace handicapping with the pace scenario in mind is Randy Moss and Jerry Bailey's descriptions of how they see the races they are featuring on TV horse racing shows. They aren't always correct because a lot of unknown variables occur during a race.

And btw, I think Randy Moss is currently one of the best pace handicappers.

[DeltaLover]

It's managing my bankroll and learning how to win that's the obstacle. You're right though, if I set a budget of, say, $100 a day and spend ten percent of that on handicapping products I'm losing out of the gate.

At this stage, you should not care too much about managing your bankroll.. If you have something like $100 available for betting, I advice you to find the best horse of the day base on your handicapping and just bet the whole amount to win...

Stay far from spreading and any kind of a protective approach like betting for show or place.. Also it is very important to be able to pass many races until you find your bet and then be very aggressive.

[thaskalos]

At this stage, you should not care too much about managing your bankroll.. If you have something like $100 available for betting, I advice you to find the best horse of the day base on your handicapping and just bet the whole amount to win...

Stay far from spreading and any kind of a protective approach like betting for show or place.. Also it is very important to be able to pass many races until you find your bet and then be very aggressive.

:D

Sure. YOU can afford to do that...because you got the banker EMD4ME as a friend.

[DeltaLover]

:D

Sure. YOU can afford to do that...because you got the banker EMD4ME as a friend.


Nice posting!

What makes you to believe that spreading and betting many small bets is preferable from a tight aggressive approach?

[thaskalos]

Nice posting!

What makes you to believe that spreading and betting many small bets is preferable from a tight aggressive approach?
Well...if the beginning player loses his $100 bet, which he probably will...then what does he do next? Does he go find another $100...and bet it all on his NEXT horse?

[DeltaLover]

Well...if the beginning player loses his $100 bet, which he probably will...then what does he do next? Does he go find another $100...and bet it all on his NEXT horse?

You mean that this is all of his available cash and he will not be able to replace it next week or next day? If this is the case he should not gamble at all..

Betting smaller amounts and more combos do not mean that he is facing less or more risk of ruin.

[thaskalos]

You mean that this is all of his available cash and he will not be able to replace it next week or next day? If this is the case he should not gamble at all..

Betting smaller amounts and more combos do not mean that he is facing less or more risk of ruin.

No...let's assume that he DOES have more money at his disposal, NOW. Is it your opinion that he should wager it $100 at a time?

[DeltaLover]

No...let's assume that he DOES have more money at his disposal, NOW. Is it your opinion that he should wager it $100 at a time?

Of course no.. I meant that as a rookie who is willing to risk a small amount in a per day basis, he will do better if he concentrates to a single bet per day, exercising his patience and physiology along with his handicapping skils

[thaskalos]

Of course no.. I meant that as a rookie who is willing to risk a small amount in a per day basis, he will do better if he concentrates to a single bet per day, exercising his patience and physiology along with his handicapping skils

IMO...a rookie lacks the necessary skill to determine which one of his bets deserves the $100 wager that you recommended he place. IMO...you have to first engage in some sort of "general practice" before you can become an effective "specialist"...otherwise your education in the game will be woefully incomplete.

Of course...I could be wrong.

[Show Me the Wire]

At a min. the bet should be $20. $2. is too little to make an impact if your method is not exactly a winning one to change. $20. wagers will give you something to think about.

[DeltaLover]

IMO...a rookie lacks the necessary skill to determine which one of his bets deserves the $100 wager that you recommended he place. IMO...you have to first engage in some sort of "general practice" before you can become an effective "specialist"...otherwise your education in the game will be woefully incomplete.

Of course...I could be wrong.

NO PAIN NO GAIN

[Laminarman]

You guys kill me. In my list I forgot to mention that one of the first things I do is try to assign a pace profile to each horse: speed, presser/stalker..etc. Of course, that's all fine and dandy except it NEVER plays out like I think it will.

I will happily wager $100 per bet WHEN I can hit a little better than 20% which is where I've regressed to on simple win bets. I still think simply picking a winner has value and that seems to me to be a basic stepping stone. I think I can probably do this good just picking the best horse according to the experts don't you?

And I will admit a weakness. I'm somewhat limited for time, so for example if I have Thursday I can do this for a few hours, it's tough to pass up a race. Now, when you guys pass up a race, do you pass it because the costs are too high or because you have no freaking clue who's likely to win? I don't pass for value at this stage, I pass because I just can't get a read on who might be the best horse. This past week I've tried paying more attention to the trainer/jockey angle. That didn't turn out so well. Last week weighted the speed figures more prominently. That didn't turn out so well. Week before looked at "bounces" and patterns and weighed that angle. That didn't turn out so well. Today, I picked a horse with a cool name and the bastard won (Felonious Fred, Finger Lakes). Go figure.

[thaskalos]

You guys kill me. In my list I forgot to mention that one of the first things I do is try to assign a pace profile to each horse: speed, presser/stalker..etc. Of course, that's all fine and dandy except it NEVER plays out like I think it will.

I will happily wager $100 per bet WHEN I can hit a little better than 20% which is where I've regressed to on simple win bets. I still think simply picking a winner has value and that seems to me to be a basic stepping stone. I think I can probably do this good just picking the best horse according to the experts don't you?

And I will admit a weakness. I'm somewhat limited for time, so for example if I have Thursday I can do this for a few hours, it's tough to pass up a race. Now, when you guys pass up a race, do you pass it because the costs are too high or because you have no freaking clue who's likely to win? I don't pass for value at this stage, I pass because I just can't get a read on who might be the best horse. This past week I've tried paying more attention to the trainer/jockey angle. That didn't turn out so well. Last week weighted the speed figures more prominently. That didn't turn out so well. Week before looked at "bounces" and patterns and weighed that angle. That didn't turn out so well. Today, I picked a horse with a cool name and the bastard won (Felonious Fred, Finger Lakes). Go figure.

I have a friend who used to own his own business, just like you own yours. He started betting big money on the horses before he was really ready...and he is now living in his mother's basement...and eating ravioli out of a can.

One of my close friends went the same route...and went from being the proud owner and operator of two successful bakeries...to spending his days on the corner of Belmont and Milwaukee in Chicago, screaming through a bullhorn at the motorists and the pedestrians...trying to convert them to Fundamentalist Christianity.

This is dynamite you are playing with here...it isn't to be taken lightly. :)

[DeltaLover]

I have a friend who used to own his own business, just like you own yours. He started betting big money on the horses before he was really ready...and he is now living in his mother's basement...and eating ravioli out of a can.

One of my close friends went the same route...and went from being the proud owner and operator of two successful bakeries...to spending his days on the corner of Belmont and Milwaukee in Chicago, screaming through a bullhorn at the motorists and the pedestrians...trying to convert them to Fundamentalist Christianity.

This is dynamite you are playing with here...it isn't to be taken lightly. :)

Betting a single Lincoln once a while is not the same as betting big money...

I do not think anyone suggested to the OP the bet big money.. What I have told him, is to avoid the trap of trying to secure a payout by spreading his opinion a lot and trying many races per day... Instead he should be able to risk his small daily bankroll in as few as possible wagers, something that will improve him in all the aspects of horse betting.

The worst horse gamblers, are those who end up their day loosing a few hundred while the largest amount the invested during the day is a two buck exacta...

[thaskalos]

Betting a single Lincoln once a while is not the same as betting big money...

I do not think anyone suggested to the OP the bet big money.. What I have told him, is to avoid the trap of trying to secure a payout by spreading his opinion a lot and trying many races per day... Instead he should be able to risk his small daily bankroll in as few as possible wagers, something that will improve him in all the aspects of horse betting.

The worst horse gamblers, are those who end up their day loosing a few hundred while the largest amount the invested during the day is a two buck exacta...

We either have different philosophies...or we've traveled in different circles.

To me...the worst gamblers aren't the ones who lose a few hundred while making small bets. I know guys who are afraid to go to work because they are being hunted down by loan sharks.

[DeltaLover]

We either have different philosophies...or we've traveled in different circles.

To me...the worst gamblers aren't the ones who lose a few hundred while making small bets. I know guys who are afraid to go to work because they are being hunted down by loan sharks.


They both belong to the same sinking ship..

[thaskalos]

They both belong to the same sinking ship..

We are all on a sinking ship...IMO. Few things are sadder than spending years and years, to master a dying game.

[DeltaLover]

We are all on a sinking ship...IMO. Few things are sadder than spending years and years, to master a dying game.

Of course I completely disagree.. The game is not dying and the lifestyle of a horse bettor is very attractive to some of us..

[thaskalos]

Of course I completely disagree.. The game is not dying and the lifestyle of a horse bettor is very attractive to some of us..

I only like the lifestyle of the horse bettor, if he is WINNING. If he is DREAMING...then I worry about him.

[DeltaLover]

I only like the lifestyle of the horse bettor, if he is WINNING. If he is DREAMING...then I worry about him.

Winning or losing, it does not matter too much, as far you keep yourself in action, always having the hope for a something big to happen..

[barn32]

At a min. the bet should be $20. $2. is too little to make an impact if your method is not exactly a winning one to change. $20. wagers will give you something to think about.The amount of the bet is relative. Instead of $20, why not $200?

$2 is fine for the learning process.

[thaskalos]

Of course I completely disagree.. The game is not dying and the lifestyle of a horse bettor is very attractive to some of us..

What does the typical "professional" horseplayer have in common with a medium pizza?

[thaskalos]

Winning or losing, it does not matter too much, as far you keep yourself in action, always having the hope for a something big to happen..

Be careful, DL. We may not die young... :)

[Show Me the Wire]

You guys kill me. In my list I forgot to mention that one of the first things I do is try to assign a pace profile to each horse: speed, presser/stalker..etc. Of course, that's all fine and dandy except it NEVER plays out like I think it will.

I will happily wager $100 per bet WHEN I can hit a little better than 20% which is where I've regressed to on simple win bets. I still think simply picking a winner has value and that seems to me to be a basic stepping stone. I think I can probably do this good just picking the best horse according to the experts don't you?

And I will admit a weakness. I'm somewhat limited for time, so for example if I have Thursday I can do this for a few hours, it's tough to pass up a race. Now, when you guys pass up a race, do you pass it because the costs are too high or because you have no freaking clue who's likely to win? I don't pass for value at this stage, I pass because I just can't get a read on who might be the best horse. This past week I've tried paying more attention to the trainer/jockey angle. That didn't turn out so well. Last week weighted the speed figures more prominently. That didn't turn out so well. Week before looked at "bounces" and patterns and weighed that angle. That didn't turn out so well. Today, I picked a horse with a cool name and the bastard won (Felonious Fred, Finger Lakes). Go figure.

The first item which stuck out for me is your statement about it being tough to pass a race. The first decision you need to make are you in the game for action or to make money? If it is for action bet the min. $2. for fun. If it is to make money, you need to look at your wager as an investment. Think of buying shares of stock and is that share likely to increase in value during the time your investment working.Is the horse going to increase in value?

With the above in mind, would you just buy any stock willy nilly or would you require some basic economic foundation for your decision to invest? I personally do not invest, even if I am extremely confident in my selection will win, if the return is too low. You need min. odds requirements to invest and you need to become proficient in selecting winners within your acceptable odds range.

Secondly, may I as what is the very first act you do when you look at the pps?

Thirdly, as you are a newbie, I would suggest avoiding mdn races, especially with fts and very low level claiming races.

Fourth, pay attention to thask, you are potentially playing with dynamite.

[DeltaLover]

The amount of the bet is relative. Instead of $20, why not $200?

$2 is fine for the learning process.

The amount of bet is far from relative. Betting $2 per race and expecting to learn the game, is the equivalent of expecting to learn how to drive an eighteen wheeler while practicing with a baby bicycle.

[Tom]

What does the typical "professional" horseplayer have in common with a medium pizza?

Both are hot and ready?

[thaskalos]

Both are hot and ready?

Neither one can feed a family of four.

[Laminarman]

All of you have been extremely helpful. I can see all sides of the argument every one of you are making.

First of all, I KNOW I am playing with dynamite. I got lucky, got a hold of lightning and on my first bet in many years hit over 3 grand on the derby on a straight up trifecta and exacta. The following week hit for several hundred on another trifecta. Then later that day a big exacta, a lucky $4 bet that payed $200 total. Notice the word "lucky" here...

Second...reality set in. I am losing now. I am still up for the year by the way so I am conservative in that I can bet $2 win bets or a few bucks on exactas and try to learn the game. I was smart enough to ramp it DOWN and decrease my betting. I hope, at 51, and with three kids and a business I can control the urge.

Third, I am an information guy and this is the most important thing I have to say: I am MORE intrigued by the technical process of handicapping than I am by the thrill to win money. The process of MAKING money to pay bills or my lifestyle or my mortgage or my kids education is not one small tiny iota of the equation. I am doing OK financially. Do I want to win? Sure. Do I want to learn to manage my bankroll? Sure. Do I need this to assure my lifestyle? Not one bit. Like flying a plane. You don't get a pilot's license to save money flying to the beach. You fly to learn to fly. I'm learning to handicap because the PROCESS and the GAME intrigue the living hell out of me. You might call yourself degenerates tongue and cheek, but I see folks who are incredibly adept at multi tasking, math and visual information processing. It's a visual sport. I think I'm a visual leaner (or thought so before this latest challenge..)

Fourth, I will be as happy working in my garden and using my tractor on my 85 acres in upstate NY as I would be in winning a few thousand from time to time.

FINALLY: What is really eating me alive is that other people are better at this shit than me. That's just me, competitive and wanting to learn. Making money is not the biggest factor. Preserving money that I haven't bank rolled is a HUGE factor. I am fortunate that if I woke up tomorrow and wanted to wager $100 I could. I could probably do that twice or three times a week and it wouldn't impact my lifestyle. No, I'm not rich, I would cut something else back in my lifestyle (drink cheaper wine perhaps..God forbid..)

If it starts to become a disease I am strong enough to walk away. For now it's not the money it's the PROCESS that fuels me. It reminds me of chess. I played chess in Bryant Park in NYC years ago with a down and out grandmaster. He was amazing, kicked my ass game after game and played five of us blind folded and we are all not novices. But he was nuts and broke. I can see parallels with horse racing. I have no desire for that, believe me.

But trust me when I appreciate that I feel like you guys are looking out for me.

[DeltaLover]

Fourth, I will be as happy working in my garden and using my tractor on my 85 acres in upstate NY as I would be in winning a few thousand from time to time.

This sounds so cool to me :ThmbUp:

[DeltaLover]

Both are hot and ready?

Precious :ThmbUp:

[Laminarman]

This sounds so cool to me :ThmbUp:

It is so awesome. Someone asked me what I grew. I said "deer." I plant food plots, bow hunt, bird hunt, train my Labradors, ride my bike, have a huge garden, photography, chess, soccer, run, love wine, love to cook, astronomy...now horses. My wife is going to lose it soon, said I have too many hobbies. I have an addictive personality but can control it. Thank God.

[Show Me the Wire]

FINALLY: What is really eating me alive is that other people are better at this shit than me

That's life, everyone does not have the same talents. Chalk up your $2. bets as recreational expenditures and who knows you may get lucky a few more times. Have fun.

[DeltaLover]

It is so awesome. Someone asked me what I grew. I said "deer." I plant food plots, bow hunt, bird hunt, train my Labradors, ride my bike, have a huge garden, photography, chess, soccer, run, love wine, love to cook, astronomy...now horses. My wife is going to lose it soon, said I have too many hobbies. I have an addictive personality but can control it. Thank God.


Very nice :ThmbUp:

You also know that all these great activities, sound extraterrestrial to horse bettor, don't you?

[EMD4ME]

:D

Sure. YOU can afford to do that...because you got the banker EMD4ME as a friend.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You're my friend too! You're all my friends. If i ever hit the lotto (which i don't play) I will spin off 7% off the base and give all the people I love enough money to never work again and hang out with me all day at the beach and then the racetrack as first post nears!!!

You're included!

[whodoyoulike]

:1: --- All of you have been extremely helpful. I can see all sides of the argument every one of you are making.

First of all, I KNOW I am playing with dynamite...

:2: --- If it starts to become a disease I am strong enough to walk away. For now it's not the money it's the PROCESS that fuels me. It reminds me of chess. I played chess in Bryant Park in NYC years ago with a down and out grandmaster. He was amazing, kicked my ass game after game and played five of us blind folded and we are all not novices. But he was nuts and broke. I can see parallels with horse racing. I have no desire for that, believe me.

:3: --- But trust me when I appreciate that I feel like you guys are looking out for me.

:1: Are you certain about this?

:2: Again, are you certain about this? All you have to do is frequent a few race tracks or OTB's a number of times and pay attention to your competitors. Some of them probably thought the same and never saw it coming.

:3: Again, see #1 above. I think some are just messing with you.

[Laminarman]

:1: Are you certain about this?

I think so!

:2: Again, are you certain about this? All you have to do is frequent a few race tracks or OTB's a number of times and pay attention to your competitors. Some of them probably thought the same and never saw it coming.

I don't want to tell you what I thought about some of the people hanging out at the OTB : )

:3: Again, see #1 above. I think some are just messing with you.

Probably you are right but I can tell those who are cynical and those who are offering advice. Or at least I HOPE I can tell the difference.