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Cholly
05-25-2015, 02:08 PM
state-bred fillies running a mile in 1-32 & change? Unless the timer is off, "firm" is an understatement here today.

thespaah
05-25-2015, 08:53 PM
state-bred fillies running a mile in 1-32 & change? Unless the timer is off, "firm" is an understatement here today.
Trakus Chart...
https://www.nyra.com/belmont/handicapping/belmont-trakus/
Winner traveled one mile plus 70 feet.
Trakus time is 1:32,.62
Equibase states the official teletimer finish was 1:32.87
The run up was 127 feet. Temp rail at 27 feet..
http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/BEL052515USA2.pdf
So which time will show up in the program PP's the next time this winner goes?..
Two tenths of a second is a rather hefty discrepancy.
Back to the main thrust of the thread. Something isnt quite right here. I'm wondering if the timer was "off"....Or the starting gate was not placed properly

sammy the sage
05-25-2015, 09:03 PM
musta hired someone from the crew at Gulfstream or Arlington to take over the timing duties in N.Y. :lol: ;)

RXB
05-25-2015, 10:20 PM
There was nothing wrong with the timing of any of the three turf races today. The course was fast.

Cholly
05-25-2015, 10:26 PM
Trakus Chart...
https://www.nyra.com/belmont/handicapping/belmont-trakus/
Winner traveled one mile plus 70 feet.
Trakus time is 1:32,.62
Equibase states the official teletimer finish was 1:32.87
The run up was 127 feet. Temp rail at 27 feet..
http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/BEL052515USA2.pdf
So which time will show up in the program PP's the next time this winner goes?..
Two tenths of a second is a rather hefty discrepancy.
Back to the main thrust of the thread. Something isnt quite right here. I'm wondering if the timer was "off"....Or the starting gate was not placed properly

Later in the card state-bred colts (horses, actually) ran a mile in 1:33.07. Though state-breds, these were horses who have won or run credibly in open graded stakes. Still...with times like these that course must be rock-hard. Chance of rain in NYC later this week, but they better get those sprinklers turned on.

thespaah
05-25-2015, 11:29 PM
Does anyone know when Trakus begins measuring the distance traveled for each horse?
Is it from the gate? Or the end of the run up when the timer is tripped?

RXB
05-25-2015, 11:39 PM
After the runup.

Cholly
05-29-2015, 04:40 PM
In today's (Friday) 7th, state-breds just set a new course record running six furlongs 1:08.15. I used the plural instead of just naming one horse since all first four finishers bested the old course record.

Firm? Maybe "asphaltic" would be a more accurate description.

OTM Al
05-29-2015, 04:45 PM
In today's (Friday) 7th, state-breds just set a new course record running six furlongs 1:08.15. I used the plural instead of just naming one horse since all first four finishers bested the old course record.

Firm? Maybe "asphaltic" would be a more accurate description.

Should have more turf descriptions as the rest of the world. "Hard" would probably be the correct one to use. Keeps going then you get to "Dead" as in dead grass and basically running on packed dirt.

cj
05-29-2015, 04:46 PM
In today's (Friday) 7th, state-breds just set a new course record running six furlongs 1:08.15. I used the plural instead of just naming one horse since all first four finishers bested the old course record.

Firm? Maybe "asphaltic" would be a more accurate description.

And yet still managed to go a 26 opening quarter in an earlier maiden route.

infrontby1
05-29-2015, 09:44 PM
Did anybody happen to take into account these particular turf races carded at Belmont today (and Saturday) are listed 'as about' distances?

Tom
05-29-2015, 10:37 PM
Take this into account -

Trakus

Bel R4 1m16 Inner turf 24.44 - 47.93 - 111.71 - 134.51 - 140.40

BRIS Chart

Bel R4 1m16 MAIN turf ? 24.87 - 48.49 - 112.4 - 135.44 - 141.27

What the hell????
Somebody is 100% incompetent.

Tom
05-29-2015, 10:55 PM
It gets better.....

Tall One
05-29-2015, 11:01 PM
were the rails still at 27'?

Tom
05-29-2015, 11:16 PM
35 feet race 4, 27 feet race 5.

After all theses years, why does Belmont need an about distance?

Tall One
05-29-2015, 11:26 PM
The "About distance" shouldnt apply up there.

Not even nit-picking, but any idea why they moved them out, and then back after one race?

Tom
05-29-2015, 11:30 PM
Both charts - BRIS and Trakus are wrong.
Trakus doesn't call out the rail settings and has the time totally wrong.
BRIS doesn't call it about distance.
DRF and EB both got it right.

Looks like they have the rail at 35 feet for all about distances, no matter what distance. I have no about distance before 2014.

Why move the rails from one race to next?
Who knows...these are the people that moved the Met Mile from Memorial Day.

Tall One
05-30-2015, 12:52 AM
6th tomorrow: abt 6f inner rail 35 feet..12 entries, with one AE.

Cholly
05-30-2015, 11:59 AM
After all theses years, why does Belmont need an about distance?
Maybe instead of using an about distance, they should list the time as "about"?

Tom
05-30-2015, 12:06 PM
:lol: That is more like it.
What was the Beyer for that race?
Oh, about an 80ish.

Sad, in this day and age we have this level of total incompetence not only existing but widely accepted by the powers that be.

My use of Trakus just ended for good - obviously, they have no idea what they are doing.

cj
05-30-2015, 01:43 PM
I'm sure that they are protecting the inside of the course for the big day of racing on Belmont day. It really isn't fair to bettors to run races as distances like this, but nobody really cares, do they? In 2015 listing "about" distances is a freaking joke.

SharpCat
05-30-2015, 03:05 PM
In today's (Friday) 7th, state-breds just set a new course record running six furlongs 1:08.15. I used the plural instead of just naming one horse since all first four finishers bested the old course record.

Firm? Maybe "asphaltic" would be a more accurate description.


Not quite a course record ;) Inner Turf 1:06.87 Widener Turf 1:06.82

Cholly
05-30-2015, 05:04 PM
Not quite a course record ;) Inner Turf 1:06.87 Widener Turf 1:06.82

Colmus call it out as "a new course record" when he announced the time and I ran with it. Apologies all around if I've disseminated some bad info...

cj
05-30-2015, 05:12 PM
Colmus call it out as "a new course record" when he announced the time and I ran with it. Apologies all around if I've disseminated some bad info...

Probably for the "about" distance?

Cholly
05-30-2015, 05:17 PM
Probably for the "about" distance?

I dunno--maybe he actually said, "it's about a course record"...

cj
05-30-2015, 05:35 PM
The fractions at the about distances don't make any sense if you actually watch the riders and how the races play out.

Tom
05-30-2015, 06:29 PM
I have 141.86 as the fastest of 8 races at about 8.5 inner turf last year.
Nothing else back to 2000 as about. Rail was at 35 feet, May 30, Race 9, 2014.
Lord Trondor.

highnote
05-30-2015, 08:50 PM
Why not just have a NYRA employee or a Trakus employee put a transmitter in their pocket and walk the course and then report the exact distance traveled?

thespaah
05-30-2015, 09:14 PM
It gets better.....
How is this possible?
How could track's electronic timer be so far off from the Trakus timer?

thespaah
05-30-2015, 09:15 PM
Is Trakus based on GPS?....Or are the devices in the saddle cloths more or less transponders like those used in auto racing or in aircraft?

Tom
05-31-2015, 10:17 AM
How is this possible?
How could track's electronic timer be so far off from the Trakus timer?

I think Trakus is wrong. If you watch the replay - on the Takus site of all places, the fractions on the video matches the charts. I don't think Trakus had any idea it was an about distance and used the wrong setting. JMHO.

But the question to NYRA is why, after decades, why do we suddenly need about distances - the hall mark of minor league racing? Two large turf courses and they can't find a way to run real distances???? I find that really hard to believe.

RXB
05-31-2015, 12:06 PM
The "About distance" shouldnt apply up there.

Not even nit-picking, but any idea why they moved them out, and then back after one race?

They didn't move the rail from one race to the next on Friday. They ran on the inner turf in R4 and on the Widener course in R5.

RXB
05-31-2015, 12:25 PM
I think Trakus is wrong. If you watch the replay - on the Takus site of all places, the fractions on the video matches the charts. I don't think Trakus had any idea it was an about distance and used the wrong setting. JMHO.

But the question to NYRA is why, after decades, why do we suddenly need about distances - the hall mark of minor league racing? Two large turf courses and they can't find a way to run real distances???? I find that really hard to believe.

When the rail is out, everything is an *about* distance.

The biggest problem is in the frequent teletimer inaccuracies of the first quarter mile. Trakus is doing a better job than the NYRA teletimer.

classhandicapper
05-31-2015, 12:32 PM
I love everything about turf racing except handicapping the races.

For me, it's a mystery wrapped in an enigma with several unnecessary complications thrown in for good measure.

RXB
05-31-2015, 12:38 PM
I do much better on turf than on dirt. I can live with the inaccuracies because I don't care about final-time ratings on the grass for three reasons-- of which questionable timing is one.

Tall One
05-31-2015, 01:02 PM
They didn't move the rail from one race to the next on Friday. They ran on the inner turf in R4 and on the Widener course in R5.


Makes sense...Thanks for the clarification, rxb.

Cholly
05-31-2015, 02:30 PM
Another "new course record" (at least per Larry Colmus) in today's 3rd...this time two (not one) N1X fillies setting the new standard.

Bigadam119
05-31-2015, 04:36 PM
If the track stays like this. Imagine what the times are going to be when the heavy hitters arrive Friday and Saturday...

OTM Al
05-31-2015, 06:15 PM
Flood warnings until 8:30 tonight. Should get a fair amount dumped on it tonight

thespaah
06-01-2015, 12:36 PM
I think Trakus is wrong. If you watch the replay - on the Takus site of all places, the fractions on the video matches the charts. I don't think Trakus had any idea it was an about distance and used the wrong setting. JMHO.

But the question to NYRA is why, after decades, why do we suddenly need about distances - the hall mark of minor league racing? Two large turf courses and they can't find a way to run real distances???? I find that really hard to believe.
That's why I asked about the technology used by Trakus.
If the system is measuring the distance traveled by each horse, would it not be more likely the Trackus time for each horse is accurate?

thespaah
06-01-2015, 12:49 PM
I do much better on turf than on dirt. I can live with the inaccuracies because I don't care about final-time ratings on the grass for three reasons-- of which questionable timing is one.
Im with ya.. I seem to do better with races on grass as well.
I've never researched it. Its just a perception.

Cratos
06-01-2015, 01:49 PM
That's why I asked about the technology used by Trakus.
If the system is measuring the distance traveled by each horse, would it not be more likely the Trackus time for each horse is accurate?
You are correct, Trakus measures each horse with a RFID chip and take 30 measurements (points) per second, essentially Trakus is doing a vector analysis and measuring points of intersection with respect to time.

Looking at videos to find fault with Trakus is nonsense because visually you cannot see with the human eye what the Trakus RFID chip is capturing at 30/points per second.

Your conclusion is correct, the Trakus measurements are more accurate and those who think it's too "complicated or theoretical" clearly don't have the math background to understand the analysis or maybe they are just nay Sayers.

castaway01
06-01-2015, 01:52 PM
You are correct, Trakus measures each horse with a RFID chip and take 30 measurements (points) per second, essentially Trakus is doing a vector analysis and measuring points of intersection with respect to time.

Looking at videos to find fault with Trakus is nonsense because visually you cannot see with the human eye what the Trakus RFID chip is capturing at 30/points per second.

Your conclusion is correct, the Trakus measurements are more accurate and those who think it's too "complicated or theoretical" clearly don't have the math background to understand the analysis or maybe they are just nay Sayers.

Do you own stock in Trakus or something? Whenever anyone finds fault with it, you react like they slapped your child (best as I can tell from your gibberish responses). Yeah, I know, we're not smart enough to understand you. :lol:

Cratos
06-01-2015, 02:40 PM
Do you own stock in Trakus or something? Whenever anyone finds fault with it, you react like they slapped your child (best as I can tell from your gibberish responses). Yeah, I know, we're not smart enough to understand you. :lol:
It has nothing to do with my personal investment, but it does have everything to do with right and wrong.

If you are wrong , you are wrong and it appears to me that you prefer conjecture and hyperbole over fact and reason.

Tom
06-01-2015, 02:42 PM
I hope Cratos is using the Trakus times for those race. :lol:

cj
06-01-2015, 02:43 PM
Do you own stock in Trakus or something? Whenever anyone finds fault with it, you react like they slapped your child (best as I can tell from your gibberish responses). Yeah, I know, we're not smart enough to understand you. :lol:

We don't really know what Trakus is doing with these "about" races. Trakus can certainly give us the time of the last mile and an eighth and count the rest as run up, but are they? The distance on the NYRA web site for Trakus isn't listed as "about" and the final time is .59 seconds faster.

classhandicapper
06-01-2015, 04:00 PM
Someone should send a note to Trakus and ask.

Honestly though, if we were debating dirt races, it would probably make more sense to put a lot of energy into this. With these Belmont turf races, they are moving the rail settings around, the paces are often extreme, there are 2 courses, you have a mix of 1 turn and 2 turn races, and we don't know the exact distances.

I think the better approach is to break out each race and create a performance figure when you are dealing with solid consistent older turf horses. You can then use races like that to help with some of the other races on the card with a lot of first time starters and first time turfers etc... where it's really hard to know how fast they ran. Other than that you just throw up your hands and accept that there's a reason many handicappers are skeptical about using final times to evaluate turf races. When in doubt, don't assign a figure for yourself or make a note that it was an impossible day.

RXB
06-01-2015, 07:35 PM
In most cases the screwup is in the first 2f and carries over from there.

Thursday R1, all of the listed teletimer splits and the final time for that race should be reduced by about 1.2 seconds to bring them in line with the other *8.5f inner turf races.

Friday R5, they really screwed up the runup adjustment badly, you need to subtract about three seconds from the fractional and final times to bring it in line with other races on that outer 8.5f course. And by the way, I have no idea why they suddenly referred to that Fri R5 as an *about* distance when it started in almost the identical spot and the same 27-foot rail setting as races from previous weeks that were simply listed as 8.5f with no *about* notation.