how long will horse racing exist in U.S.?

[highnote]

Anyone care to comment on how many more years horse races will be continued to be run in the U.S.?

I ask because Ky Derby and Preakness draw large crowds and so does the Belmont Stakes when TC is on the line. This is a good sign, but there are factors that work against racing. So it would be interesting to get a sense of all the factors in play.

[DeltaLover]

Forever

[highnote]

Forever

that's a long time, but I like your optimism!

[Robert Fischer]

It will be here long after I'm gone.


This game could use media better and actually get a larger market share, or it could be beaten-down more with bad publicity.

Could go either way.

[thaskalos]

Forever
If you mean just "hanging around", like harness racing is today...then I agree with you.

[Greyfox]

Most cards on weekdays have many unplayable races with short fields.
A decade ago 35,000 thoroughbreds were registered a year.
In 2014 only 22,500.
My interest has seriously declined in the game with the diminishing field sizes.

[LottaKash]

Well, since the racing of horses has been around for thousands of years, I suspect that it will probably be around, in one form or another, for as long as man still has a relationship with the equines...

Pari-Mutuel horse racing, I am not so sure about, nor where that will ultimately end up...But, if the way that it is going now is a clue and it continues, I don't think that it will ever be anything like it was in it's heyday...ever

I do believe the first vestiges of the "Big Contraction" is well underway..But where, how fast or slow it goes, and how it will end up, I couldn't say..

Perhaps it will contract to something like they have in Japan or Hong Kong...It will be what it will be, my guess is, only on regional basis, rather than all over the place...Imo, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the "Players", if not all that are involved with this game of ours..

These days there is an obvious shortage of horses and owners, and the numbers don't lie, is what I see...Short fields, too many tracks open simultaneously, and the I don't give chit attitude of the tracks and the horseman towards the serious players and fans alike, shows that we are obviously on a fast track to nowhere but down....Maybe not out, but definitely down...as is..

[cj]

Most cards on weekdays have many unplayable races with short fields.
A decade ago 35,000 thoroughbreds were registered a year.
In 2014 only 22,500.
My interest has seriously declined in the game with the diminishing field sizes.

Not only that, there are more tracks running more days.

[RXB]

In 1989, there were 74,000 t-bred races in the USA.

In 2004, there were 53,000.

Last year, there were 41,000.

Racing dates are down.

[Stillriledup]

In 1989, there were 74,000 t-bred races in the USA.

In 2004, there were 53,000.

Last year, there were 41,000.

Racing dates are down.

A lot of this has to do with tracks being able to make money accepting bets on races without having to put on the show themselves. Less horses and owners are needed when you can be sitting in Grand Island Nebraska or Altoona, Iowa and make a wager on a race run in Albany, California

[ronsmac]

If they ever take casino revenue away, Philly, Penn, ct, mnr,prairie, Remington, and others will definitely close. Some tracks I suspect will always be here, then again I went to Hollywood in 1986 and it was so crowded that I would have bet my life they 'd still be open today.

[horses4courses]

Til the cows come home.........

[cj]

If they ever take casino revenue away, Philly, Penn, ct, mnr,prairie, Remington, and others will definitely close. Some tracks I suspect will always be here, then again I went to Hollywood in 1986 and it was so crowded that I would have bet my life they 'd still be open today.

The track closed, but the circuit isn't going anywhere. A lot of states would do well to cut down on infrastructure.

[Rex Phinney]

It will be around forever assuming that those in charge get it in their head to change a few things. The model needs revising.

I think getting tracks to be realistic about racing dates would help. Let's have three days of really good racing on Friday, Saturday and Sunday instead of 4 or 5 days of mediocre racing.

Let's get the facilities in modern condition so that we can charge more for tickets to offset some of the revenue lost on 4-5 day race weeks.

[Cratos]

Anyone care to comment on how many more years horse races will be continued to be run in the U.S.?

I ask because Ky Derby and Preakness draw large crowds and so does the Belmont Stakes when TC is on the line. This is a good sign, but there are factors that work against racing. So it would be interesting to get a sense of all the factors in play.
A very, very long time and not only that I believe there will be a rebirth through internationization.

[ronsmac]

The track closed, but the circuit isn't going anywhere. A lot of states would do well to cut down on infrastructure.I can't disagree, but what happens when Stronach dies and the kids or his wife if he has one, want to cash out and sell to condo developers?

[Grits]

A very, very long time and not only that I believe there will be a rebirth through internationization.

Cratos, honey, you've put me on tilt. There's no such word, or if there is, can you locate it? These big engineer degree words, I'm not familiar with them. Did you mean this one? If so, wouldn't localization have done? :lol:

Internationalization (sometimes shortened to "I18N , meaning "I - eighteen letters -N") is the process of planning and implementing products and services so that they can easily be adapted to specific local languages and cultures, a process called localization .

Ronsmac, wouldn't it be more prudent to note on the casino money the scenario of not...IF, but instead...WHEN? Aren't the casinos, at some point, going to wise up? A lot of tracks need to close

[therussmeister]

If they ever take casino revenue away, Philly, Penn, ct, mnr,prairie, Remington, and others will definitely close. Some tracks I suspect will always be here, then again I went to Hollywood in 1986 and it was so crowded that I would have bet my life they 'd still be open today.
I would never assume that when there are multiple tracks in the same metropolitan area they would all survive.

[ronsmac]

I would never assume that when there are multiple tracks in the same metropolitan area they would all survive.You are right and I was obviously wrong. I still would have made that bet back then. It took us 20 minutes to park and get into the track because the parking lot was so packed. I'd never seen anything like it on a regular Saturday.

[lamboguy]

right now the NTRA is making a case to restructure the tax consequences. they claim that if they are successful it will mean about about $1 billion in added revenue to the game.

there are deals that are very close to fruition to export their signals all over the world, i have no idea how much that is going to mean for North American racing but it should mean something. there is plenty to be worked out, but at least there are possibilities.

[Kash$]

Like boxing,and tennis it will still be around.

[Cratos]

Cratos, honey, you've put me on tilt. There's no such word, or if there is, can you locate it? These big engineer degree words, I'm not familiar with them. Did you mean this one? If so, wouldn't localization have done? :lol:

Internationalization (sometimes shortened to "I18N , meaning "I - eighteen letters -N") is the process of planning and implementing products and services so that they can easily be adapted to specific local languages and cultures, a process called localization .

Ronsmac, wouldn't it be more prudent to note on the casino money the scenario of not...IF, but instead...WHEN? Aren't the casinos, at some point, going to wise up? A lot of tracks need to close
Internationalization, a noun which is defined on Dictionary.com as measuring the act of bringing something under international control.

[castaway01]

"Horse racing" will exist, in some form, for the rest of our lifetimes (granted we're old). I imagine it will slowly continue to shrink in popularity/wagering though.

[Track Phantom]

The answer may be rooted in how far diminished the game gets before it over-corrects the retraction. It may take a serious decline to occur before we see a governing body.

With a governing body, unifying a myriad of things related to this game, it has a chance to gain marketshare. Without it, it's likely the game will continue to wane in popularity for the remainder of our lifetime. I doubt it would ever be totally shut down but it will likely look quite a bit different in 15 years. More boutique type meets, less racing days, less horses, less owners.

I can't see a serious impact upward in popularity without a governing body driving the game.

[Inner Dirt]

If they ever take casino revenue away, Philly, Penn, ct, mnr,prairie, Remington, and others will definitely close. Some tracks I suspect will always be here, then again I went to Hollywood in 1986 and it was so crowded that I would have bet my life they 'd still be open today.

Unlike the East Coast, California didn't have a network of OTBs yet, you still had to go to the track they were running at. OTBs didn't start popping up till a few years later.

[Dahoss2002]

20 years from now a different game indeed after all us old guys are in nursing homes. Just hope wherever we are we got decent WIFI :lol:

[Dark Horse]

As long as there are horses, there will be horse racing. It will outlast sports that have yet to be invented.

I know horse racing was one of the big three sports back in the day, but I've never seen the numbers for how many horses were actually racing. Has there truly been a decline in horse racing, or is the decline in comparison to other sports that marketed themselves far better?

[Capper Al]

Forever. We might end up only 5 or 6 tracks nation wide, but it will last.

[chadk66]

A lot of this has to do with tracks being able to make money accepting bets on races without having to put on the show themselves. Less horses and owners are needed when you can be sitting in Grand Island Nebraska or Altoona, Iowa and make a wager on a race run in Albany, Californiaand it also has to do with the number of foals being down and the economy has been in the tank for what seems like forever now. and add to that the new philosophy in racing to run every thirty to sixty days.

[chadk66]

"Horse racing" will exist, in some form, for the rest of our lifetimes (granted we're old). I imagine it will slowly continue to shrink in popularity/wagering though.this. eventually the powers that be will realize we don't need near as many tracks and some are ultimately going to close. I also think if AP would actually win the triple crown it would spark a lot more interest at least in the short term. which also may be a bad thing because then the power that be may think they're doing something right lol. I think racing is at a crossroads right now. And the decisions that are made are going to dictate whether racing grows or continues to shrink.

[pandy]

It's going to be around for a long time in some form but my guess is that sometime in the future, maybe several decades from now, it will be small meets run at Fairs or a few big racetracks that are perhaps set up as national parks and therefore taxpayer funded as preserved green space.

I could see the triple crown run forever but I would think that eventually at least 70% of the tracks that are running now will close. The twenty and thirty somethings don't seem that interested in either thoroughbred or harness racing and unless that changes I don't see how the tracks can stay open.

Tracks like Santa Anita, Saratoga, Keeneland, maybe Del Mar, could be preserved as National Parks with small racing meets in spring, summer, and fall, and maybe one winter meet at Gulfstream.

[cosmo96]

Horse racing seems to be alive and well in southwestern Ohio. Dayton Raceway and Miami Valley always have big crowds. Belterra and Turfway the same.

[pandy]

That's good to hear.

[Cratos]

It's going to be around for a long time in some form but my guess is that sometime in the future, maybe several decades from now, it will be small meets run at Fairs or a few big racetracks that are perhaps set up as national parks and therefore taxpayer funded as preserved green space.

I could see the triple crown run forever but I would think that eventually at least 70% of the tracks that are running now will close. The twenty and thirty somethings don't seem that interested in either thoroughbred or harness racing and unless that changes I don't see how the tracks can stay open.

Tracks like Santa Anita, Saratoga, Keeneland, maybe Del Mar, could be preserved as National Parks with small racing meets in spring, summer, and fall, and maybe one winter meet at Gulfstream.
I understand what you are stating, but the right product that will bring the sport to the consumer might change everything.

Horseracing unlike the other major American sports is run year round with a lot of information to keep track of by the racing fan.

Also I believe racing would be better without the quasi -involvement by government. I understand that government got a financial stake in the racing business through the "take out" which I think should be a license fee and allow the racetrack to operate as they see fit to serve their customers.

[thaskalos]

Horse racing seems to be alive and well in southwestern Ohio. Dayton Raceway and Miami Valley always have big crowds.
Well...the big crowds must be doing something other than betting...

[Some_One]

Well...the big crowds must be doing something other than betting...

And why should handle be the primary determination of the health of a track?

[thaskalos]

And why should handle be the primary determination of the health of a track?
What should be the primary determination of the health of a business? Customer count?

[Dark Horse]

My sense is that Vegas is a big problem where it comes to any type of competition. They'll just line the pockets of some politician and get their way. That's what was behind the anti-internet gambling legislation bill, which was then passed as a rider in some anti-terrorism bill. Just as with the Fed vote in 1913 (!), they waited to pass the bill until there was almost nobody there to vote. I remember watching that vote live. No, not the 1913 one.

There is no reason at all not to have fullblown casinos at every track, if that helps horse racing. One way to beat Vegas would be to build tracks on Indian reservations.

[DeltaLover]

I really do not understand the pessimism of most the posters, who predict that racing is going to shrink and gradually become a pariah of the gambling games!

Yes, it is true that horse racing is facing a crisis and has problems to attract many new gamblers but still it has a huge following and the handle is in the millions of dollars every week..

Horse racing has a huge growth potential as it represents the most sophisticated and rewarding gambling activity known to the humanity since the beginning of time. The problem is that those driving the industry, need to make the necessary directional changes that will allow the game to explode...

What is needed is a clear view of the future and the motivation to move the game to the 21st century.

Less racing, fixed odds, betting exchanges, lower takeout and competition among book makers, less gimmicks and more parlays (including horse racing to sports) is what is needed to revive the game and attract legions of new players..

[thaskalos]

I really do not understand the pessimism of most the posters, who predict that racing is going to shrink and gradually become a pariah of the gambling games!

Yes, it is true that horse racing is facing a crisis and has problems to attract many new gamblers but still it has a huge following and the handle is in the millions of dollars every week..

Horse racing has a huge growth potential as it represents the most sophisticated and rewarding gambling activity known to the humanity since the beginning of time. The problem is that those driving the industry, need to make the necessary directional changes that will allow the game to explode...

What is needed is a clear view of the future and the motivation to move the game to the 21st century.

Less racing, fixed odds, betting exchanges, lower takeout and competition among book makers, less gimmicks and more parlays (including horse racing to sports) is what is needed to revive the game and attract legions of new players..

I think I can explain to you why some of us are so pessimistic about the future of our favorite game, DL. It's because the changes that you propose at the end of your post have a ZERO% chance of ever being implemented.

[thaskalos]

My sense is that Vegas is a big problem where it comes to any type of competition. They'll just line the pockets of some politician and get their way. That's what was behind the anti-internet gambling legislation bill, which was then passed as a rider in some anti-terrorism bill. Just as with the Fed vote in 1913 (!), they waited to pass the bill until there was almost nobody there to vote. I remember watching that vote live. No, not the 1913 one.

There is no reason at all not to have fullblown casinos at every track, if that helps horse racing. One way to beat Vegas would be to build tracks on Indian reservations.

Having full-blown casinos at every track will be a bonanza for the tracks...but it won't do the horseplayers a bit of good. The casino side will be plush and well-maintained...while the racing side will be a dump. The horseplayer will be pushed to remote corners of the place, where he will be totally ignored...and he will either flee altogether out of disgust, or he will be converted into a casino player. The mutuel pools will dwarf, and the quality of the racing product will plummet. And no one in management will give a damn...because the purses will be getting funded by the casino tables and the slots.

[Relwob Owner]

Having full-blown casinos at every track will be a bonanza for the tracks...but it won't do the horseplayers a bit of good. The casino side will be plush and well-maintained...while the racing side will be a dump. The horseplayer will be pushed to remote corners of the place, where he will be totally ignored...and he will either flee altogether out of disgust, or he will be converted into a casino player. The mutuel pools will dwarf, and the quality of the racing product will plummet. And no one in management will give a damn...because the purses will be getting funded by the casino tables and the slots.

Bingo. Its already happening....most owners of the racinos don't care about racing and have no incentive to make things better. The tracks were simply a means to an end for them to get the casinos started. I love horse racing more than anything but am also a realist and there will be some big changes coming in the years ahead and the last thing I expect to see is racing growing in any way.

I remember years ago, I thought the slots would be a savior. I was stupid enough to think that they would prop the tracks up and give the tracks enough time to get to work and improve their product. I think at that time, Mountaineer had big fields and big purses. Take a look at it now.....

[proximity]

If they ever take casino revenue away, Philly, Penn, ct, mnr,prairie, Remington, and others will definitely close. Some tracks I suspect will always be here, then again I went to Hollywood in 1986 and it was so crowded that I would have bet my life they 'd still be open today.

idk if pen will ever fully go away being that the track itself is the flagship property of their whole gaming empire. maybe reduce dates to friday and saturday only??? :confused:

[Some_One]

What should be the primary determination of the health of a business? Customer count?

I put on track attendance of much higher importance for the health of a track versus handle.

[Cratos]

I put on track attendance of much higher importance for the health of a track versus handle.
You must be someone from marketing because it is very difficult to argue with your implied long range thinking.

By increasing attendance you have a good possibility of increasing your customers while having increased handle will probably only be short term success because once the funds dwindle from that existing crowd there will be a downturn and the need to attract new bettors.

[Relwob Owner]

You must be someone from marketing because it is very difficult to argue with your implied long range thinking.

By increasing attendance you have a good possibility of increasing your customers while having increased handle will probably only be short term success because once the funds dwindle from that existing crowd there will be a downturn and the need to attract new bettors.


I would propose a counter to this and propose that it is more important to keep existing people happy and not lose their business while hoping that they will help bring in more customers. At this point, with so many more entertainment options available than in the past, is it realistic to think that traditional marketing strategies will work with horse racing?

[thaskalos]

I would propose a counter to this and propose that it is more important to keep existing people happy and not lose their business while hoping that they will help bring in more customers. At this point, with so many more entertainment options available than in the past, is it realistic to think that traditional marketing strategies will work with horse racing?
:ThmbUp:

A business that's unable to hold on to its existing customers is unlikely to acquire any new ones. Radical changes need to be implemented in this game...but history tells us that the racing industry always languishes far behind when it comes to innovated thinking. There is a dire need for leaders with penetrating vision in this game...but all we have now is a ship of myopic fools, with nothing in their bag of tricks but useless props and foolish gimmicks.

[Track Phantom]

:ThmbUp:

A business that's unable to hold on to its existing customers is unlikely to acquire any new ones. Radical changes need to be implemented in this game...but history tells us that the racing industry always languishes far behind when it comes to innovated thinking. There is a dire need for leaders with penetrating vision in this game...but all we have now is a ship of myopic fools, with nothing in their bag of tricks but useless props and foolish gimmicks.

Solid

[Stillriledup]

I would propose a counter to this and propose that it is more important to keep existing people happy and not lose their business while hoping that they will help bring in more customers. At this point, with so many more entertainment options available than in the past, is it realistic to think that traditional marketing strategies will work with horse racing?

Excellent points.

Word of mouth is HUGE in acquiring new customers and yet, racing makes no attempt to treat the current customers like gold, current customers are taken for granted, there aren't too many current racing fans who are dragging newbies to the track, in fact, they're probably steering them away from the track.

[thaskalos]

I put on track attendance of much higher importance for the health of a track versus handle.

If your per/customer sales are mediocre...then you got a mediocre business. Not all customers are the same...

[Stillriledup]

:ThmbUp:

A business that's unable to hold on to its existing customers is unlikely to acquire any new ones. Radical changes need to be implemented in this game...but history tells us that the racing industry always languishes far behind when it comes to innovated thinking. There is a dire need for leaders with penetrating vision in this game...but all we have now is a ship of myopic fools, with nothing in their bag of tricks but useless props and foolish gimmicks.

Fantastic, couldn't agree more. :ThmbUp:

[Cratos]

I would propose a counter to this and propose that it is more important to keep existing people happy and not lose their business while hoping that they will help bring in more customers. At this point, with so many more entertainment options available than in the past, is it realistic to think that traditional marketing strategies will work with horse racing?
You make an excellent point , but marginally I will go with the earlier poster because I just believe that if you grow your customer base,; you grow your business for the ong term.

Yes, I do believe traditional marketing strategies will work in horseracing because that is what America is all about; a market economy.

[thaskalos]

You make an excellent point , but marginally I will go with the earlier poster because I just believe that if you grow your customer base,; you grow your business for the ong term.

Yes, I do believe traditional marketing strategies will work in horseracing because that is what America is all about; a market economy.

When a customer walks into your place of business but doesn't buy anything...should he be considered a "customer"?

[Relwob Owner]

You make an excellent point , but marginally I will go with the earlier poster because I just believe that if you grow your customer base,; you grow your business for the ong term.

Yes, I do believe traditional marketing strategies will work in horseracing because that is what America is all about; a market economy.

Can't argue about growing a customer being very important. Horse racing is a bit different than the average business I think so maybe it is more complex in term of a strategy/solution. My main concern I guessed that there seem to be so few that are motivated enough to come up with solutions.

[burnsy]

I think I can explain to you why some of us are so pessimistic about the future of our favorite game, DL. It's because the changes that you propose at the end of your post have a ZERO% chance of ever being implemented.

Ain't that the truth? And your "myopic fools" leadership comment is gold too. This is the problem, other gaming became legal about 30 years ago. People with any sense at all should of realized this is new competition. Racing should of began adjustments then, its 3 decades later and we are still talking about it. Why? Because now its in trouble. No, its not going to die. Just like you stated it will chug along like harness racing does. Laws of economics are already taking place, less owners, less (daily) customers and less horses but the tracks (entities) loathe to make the necessary adjustments they need to make. So you have 20 tracks running at once with 5 horse fields. Yeah, they can break a record or two on the big days and brag about it. But does that justify your day to day operations? The track operators and the (track writing and talking cronies) think it does.........there's the problem. Speed kills, greed stunts and its been long past time to smell the coffee. The game is stunted......no growth and the growth there is on the big days is artificial. Come Wednesday after the weekend, 40 guys at the track betting 5 horse fields. Oh its doing great!......... :confused:

[barn32]

What is the take out for win betting and exacta betting in Hong Kong?

[DeltaLover]

What is the take out rfor win betting and exacta betting in Hong Kong?

https://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/world-racing/hong-kong-preview-friend-to-the-punters-131214-143.html

Betting with betfair, the take out can be as low as 3% ONLY ON YOUR WINNINGS.. The comparison with what we are getting here in US is yours!

[Cratos]

Fantastic, couldn't agree more. :ThmbUp:
Have you ever heard of Apple Computer?

There is the product and there is the marketing of that product

Yes, there is much that "Racing" must do to revitalize its product to its customer, but make no mistake, the product is there and it will not be brought back to prominence by whining on an Internet horseracing forum.

[Some_One]

https://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/world-racing/hong-kong-preview-friend-to-the-punters-131214-143.html

Betting with betfair, the take out can be as low as 3% ONLY ON YOUR WINNINGS.. The comparison with what we are getting here in US is yours!

You need to factor in the commission which about doubles your effective takeout. And of course it's only on straight Win/Place bets.

[Some_One]

What is the take out for win betting and exacta betting in Hong Kong?

17.5% on WP, 25% on exotics, 10% rebate on losing tickets greater then ~1000 dollars.

[burnsy]

Vegas Race Books sounds like common sense

http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=417775

[classhandicapper]

Vegas Race Books sounds like common sense

http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=417775

I've been arguing for significant consolidation for years. Horse racing is the only industry that thinks it's immune to market forces.

If government wasn't involved at all, I have no doubt the industry would become more nimble and turn around. But getting from where we are to place where private entities run the tracks and just pay taxes on profits instead of states taking a piece of the revenue and regulating so tightly seems impossible.

[Robert Goren]

I've been arguing for significant consolidation for years. Horse racing is the only industry that thinks it's immune to market forces.

If government wasn't involved at all, I have no doubt the industry would become more nimble and turn around. But getting from where we are to place where private entities run the tracks and just pay taxes on profits instead of states taking a piece of the revenue and regulating so tightly seems impossible.Where do states take much of piece of the revenue? In most states, the amount that the state does not cover the cost of trying to keep the sport honest, let alone contribute money to the state coffers. I have never found a state that takes more than 2% of the handle, most take less than 1%. There are only a few states were the government does any more than regulate the sport. In every state I have looked at, the state government has bent over backward to keep horse racing alive, but now a few states are beginning to draw some lines because no matter they do them, horse racing keeps coming back for more. They have to the realization the few jobs the industry creates are not worth money being diverted (from casino funds) nor is it worth the problems that it creates.

[Cratos]

I've been arguing for significant consolidation for years. Horse racing is the only industry that thinks it's immune to market forces.

If government wasn't involved at all, I have no doubt the industry would become more nimble and turn around. But getting from where we are to place where private entities run the tracks and just pay taxes on profits instead of states taking a piece of the revenue and regulating so tightly seems impossible.
Horseracing is a dual market structure in North America for horseracing with two markets that are interdependent on each other and those markets are a breeding market with an elastic demand curve world-wide with the other being a government controlled domestic gambling market with an inelastic demand curve; and therein lies the problem.

[Secondbest]

I think racing has a lot of problems and one of them is caused by racing or rather the lack of racing.In order for the game to grow and attract more fans it needs stars it has one now but he's gone after 2or 3 more races.thats the problem They used to breed to race now they breed to breed.If a horse is well bred it will race only a few times so as not to hurt its breeding rights.Back in the day you used to alw races with some real bangers who would run every 2-3 weeks and the races were full. now as we see a $150000 race gets 5 horses {before scratches}.There is no reason why a 25 yr old would want to start to learn how to handicap.If they gamble its poker or blackjack.
Having said that I think racing will be around but less tracks and more like harness.

[classhandicapper]

Robert,

I don't know the portion of the handle that goes to government in each state, but a small percentage of a very large number is still a large number. Total handle in this country is still huge and track margins are narrow.

If all tracks were privately owned and paid taxes on profits instead, it would cushion them better during the flat and down periods (profits would fall sharply but so would taxes paid relative to a piece of the handle) and give them more flexibility during good times to use exploding free cash in ways that improve operations or even reduce the track take.

IMO the industry isn't nimble because it has so little control over its own destiny both financially and operationally. For example, if we could speak privately to the people at NYRA that understand this game fairly well, I'm fairly sure they would tell us the state takeover is hampering them badly.

[whodoyoulike]

Where do states take much of piece of the revenue? In most states, the amount that the state does not cover the cost of trying to keep the sport honest, let alone contribute money to the state coffers. I have never found a state that takes more than 2% of the handle, most take less than 1%. There are only a few states were the government does any more than regulate the sport. In every state I have looked at, the state government has bent over backward to keep horse racing alive, but now a few states are beginning to draw some lines because no matter they do them, horse racing keeps coming back for more. They have to the realization the few jobs the industry creates are not worth money being diverted (from casino funds) nor is it worth the problems that it creates.

I thought the state racing commissions were only attempting to cover their cost at least in Cali. I think I read that in the CHRB annual report years ago. They didn't want the state taxpayers to subsidize.

[biggestal99]

I like the japanese model, regional tracks for lesser horses, national tracks for the better horses

Allan

[Robert Goren]

Robert,

I don't know the portion of the handle that goes to government in each state, but a small percentage of a very large number is still a large number. Total handle in this country is still huge and track margins are narrow.

If all tracks were privately owned and paid taxes on profits instead, it would cushion them better during the flat and down periods (profits would fall sharply but so would taxes paid relative to a piece of the handle) and give them more flexibility during good times to use exploding free cash in ways that improve operations or even reduce the track take.

IMO the industry isn't nimble because it has so little control over its own destiny both financially and operationally. For example, if we could speak privately to the people at NYRA that understand this game fairly well, I'm fairly sure they would tell us the state takeover is hampering them badly.I can assure that the money that the state takes from horse racing is far less than the money horse racing gets from slots. The amount of the money the states get from horse racing is not the problem. Ending all money going to the state would not change one thing.

[Grits]

Vegas Race Books sounds like common sense

http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=417775

Good story, thank you for posting.

Sign of the times. It takes someone, with an abundant amount of common sense, in a sports/race book in Vegas, to explain the obvious problems with this sport. And yet, suits and horsemen, who could come together and make change, still resist. Might Dinny Phipps resignation as chairman of the Jockey Club bring the sport a century forward? Doubt it.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/money/2015/06/08/jockey-club-chairman-phipps-retiring/28685335/ (http://www.courier-journal.com/story/money/2015/06/08/jockey-club-chairman-phipps-retiring/28685335/)

[classhandicapper]

I can assure that the money that the state takes from horse racing is far less than the money horse racing gets from slots. The amount of the money the states get from horse racing is not the problem. Ending all money going to the state would not change one thing.

All the money from slots is not going to keep going to horse racing. Politicians are corrupt, slow to move etc.. but they are not stupid.

Casino money is like having a terminally ill patient on life support. The vitals look good while the medicine is flowing and the machines are on, but the patient would be dead otherwise.

The economic model is broken. Racing needs to be consolidated and the government removed to as large an extent as humanly possible. That's the ONLY hope. Consolidation and greater freedom is how many struggling industries comes back.

[thaskalos]

There is no hope. The powers that be are clueless when it comes to running this game. The are in search of band-aid solutions...when only quadruple-bypass surgery will do.

[EMD4ME]

There is no hope. The powers that be are clueless when it comes to running this game. The are in search of band-aid solutions...when only quadruple-bypass surgery will do.

So true Thaskalos.

Serious horse players should be in charge in every state, however, THAT will never happen.

I hate the fact that the powers that be are in charge. Most, seriously, have no clue or have the inability (power wise) to implement serious positive changes.

[Stillriledup]

There is no hope. The powers that be are clueless when it comes to running this game. The are in search of band-aid solutions...when only quadruple-bypass surgery will do.

The clue they lack is that bettors were and still are mostly all considered low life degenerates without 2 nickels to rub together. The tracks cater to the trainers and jocks, trainers can drug and Rob purse and betting money, jocks can stiff horses and not ride them out to the wire and nothing happens, a few 'warnings' or minor slaps on the wrist are done and than its back to business as usual. These trainers and jocks are all replaceable commodities and yet, tracks act like if a jock or trainer walked away tomorrow their business would be dealt a crippling blow.

If a big on track player walked away, most tracks wouldn't even know it.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

The clue they lack is that bettors were and still are mostly all considered low life degenerates without 2 nickels to rub together. The tracks cater to the trainers and jocks, trainers can drug and Rob purse and betting money, jocks can stiff horses and not ride them out to the wire and nothing happens, a few 'warnings' or minor slaps on the wrist are done and than its back to business as usual. These trainers and jocks are all replaceable commodities and yet, tracks act like if a jock or trainer walked away tomorrow their business would be dealt a crippling blow.

If a big on track player walked away, most tracks wouldn't even know it.

The entire world is against you SRU.

Why even go on living much less wager on these fixed tracks?

[EMD4ME]

The clue they lack is that bettors were and still are mostly all considered low life degenerates without 2 nickels to rub together. The tracks cater to the trainers and jocks, trainers can drug and Rob purse and betting money, jocks can stiff horses and not ride them out to the wire and nothing happens, a few 'warnings' or minor slaps on the wrist are done and than its back to business as usual. These trainers and jocks are all replaceable commodities and yet, tracks act like if a jock or trainer walked away tomorrow their business would be dealt a crippling blow.

If a big on track player walked away, most tracks wouldn't even know it.

Very true. (about how players are mostly looked at)

About the players, I'm not so sure. In my case, The Meadowlands knew it. God bless her soul, Connie Knapp, called me in 2004 when I disappeared from their roster. It was a matter of principle and after years of being there 3-4 nights a week, I stopped cold and they knew it. Told them I'd never come back. I didn't till I made an appearance last year (American Palm Sunday)

At NYRA, I have every confidence that Tina would know if a player drops off. I've first hand seen her ask what's wrong to people, if their handle is down.

Last year, when the Belmont room was closed during the SPA season, my handle went from 80-100K for an average August month to near 10K. She noticed and apologized.

I can't speak for other tracks. Just what I've experienced.

[Stillriledup]

Very true. (about how players are mostly looked at)

About the players, I'm not so sure. In my case, The Meadowlands knew it. God bless her soul, Connie Knapp, called me in 2004 when I disappeared from their roster. It was a matter of principle and after years of being there 3-4 nights a week, I stopped cold and they knew it. Told them I'd never come back. I didn't till I made an appearance last year (American Palm Sunday)

At NYRA, I have every confidence that Tina would know if a player drops off. I've first hand seen her ask what's wrong to people, if their handle is down.

Last year, when the Belmont room was closed during the SPA season, my handle went from 80-100K for an average August month to near 10K. She noticed and apologized.

I can't speak for other tracks. Just what I've experienced.

But these are customer service reps and liaisons, I was talking about the higher ups like track owners and GMs

[EMD4ME]

But these are customer service reps and liaisons, I was talking about the higher ups like track owners and GMs

You mean like Mr. Kay (Congratulations: 6000 match winner Ramon Dominguez) ? LMAO

[EMD4ME]

But these are customer service reps and liaisons, I was talking about the higher ups like track owners and GMs


As a follow up to my blast of NYRA last August:

I must give Steve Travis credit (NYRA). When he found out what happened to my mom and I disappeared from NYRA (March 15 was my last day), he did send a bouquet of flowers to the hospital with a card.

I respect that.