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View Full Version : Should Ahmed Zayat be a licensed owner?


lurker
05-22-2015, 02:10 PM
It certainly seems that there is a lot of evidence against it. There is a site that just went up by some UK horse writer that seems to think not. Here is link http://www.ahmedzayat.com. No new info from yesterday's stories, but there is a lot of damaging info. I still don't know how he got NJ bets to extend credit. And the whole gift to Rubinsky and his sister looks bad. Perfect timing for all of this as its just like the dead week before the Superbowl, and there is nothing else to talk about.

PaceAdvantage
05-22-2015, 02:41 PM
Why shouldn't he be a licensed owner? Has he been convicted of anything that would disqualify him of being a licensed owner? I don't think so...

Seems like a biased link to me... :lol:

PhantomOnTour
05-22-2015, 02:55 PM
I've made it well known that I'm no fan of Zayat, but on the verge of history, I will keep my mouth shut...this time.

TJDave
05-22-2015, 02:58 PM
Horseracing is the sport of kings.

And kings aren't what they used to be.

Relwob Owner
05-22-2015, 03:43 PM
Horseracing is the sport of kings.

And kings aren't what they used to be.


Agreed. Im pretty anti Zayat, but can't see from what I have read, that he shouldn't be allowed to be an owner. That being said, many things I have read make me wonder why someone would say they "deserve" this Triple Crown, which I believe has been posted on here. I would say that in a lot of senses, in addition to history not being on their side, Karma may not be as well.

Flysofree
05-22-2015, 03:52 PM
His type of reputation doesn't help the sport....What a shame this horse has to belong to him. Hoping he's nothing more than another footnote after the Belmont.

RacingFan1992
05-22-2015, 04:06 PM
Agreed. Im pretty anti Zayat, but can't see from what I have read, that he shouldn't be allowed to be an owner. That being said, many things I have read make me wonder why someone would say they "deserve" this Triple Crown, which I believe has been posted on here. I would say that in a lot of senses, in addition to history not being on their side, Karma may not be as well.

If anyone should win the Triple Crown I would say it should be Marylou Whitney, Ogden Phipps, or Stuart Janney. Those are the "Kings" of the sport.

Dave Schwartz
05-22-2015, 04:06 PM
IMHO, this is a hatchet piece.

If every businessman that filed bankruptcy was barred from horse ownership, there would be a lot less owners.

PaceAdvantage
05-22-2015, 04:06 PM
His type of reputation doesn't help the sport....What a shame this horse has to belong to him. Hoping he's nothing more than another footnote after the Belmont.Me thinks you're going a bit overboard here...

Nobody in this sport is a saint...

PaceAdvantage
05-22-2015, 04:07 PM
If anyone should win the Triple Crown I would say it would be Marylou Whitney, Ogden Phipps, or Stuart Janney. Those are the "Kings" of the sport.Ehhhh...not so sure about that list...aren't we supposed to hate rich people these days and the way they obtained their wealth?

Relwob Owner
05-22-2015, 04:13 PM
If anyone should win the Triple Crown I would say it should be Marylou Whitney, Ogden Phipps, or Stuart Janney. Those are the "Kings" of the sport.

No arguments about that from me.

Grits
05-22-2015, 04:14 PM
Aside from their ability to prove themselves on the track... to even elevate themselves to greatness, horses don't have the ability to be, either, embarrassed by their owners or diminished in the hearts of fans/bettors by those same owners. For this we can be grateful.

At this moment, gentlemen, I could not tell you the names of all 11 Triple Crown owners. Of course, I can tell you those horses.

Owners fade, horses don't. Owners don't deserve a Triple Crown, horses earn them along with their place in history. To believe otherwise is folly.

thaskalos
05-22-2015, 04:20 PM
If anyone should win the Triple Crown I would say it should be Marylou Whitney, Ogden Phipps, or Stuart Janney. Those are the "Kings" of the sport.
The "Bluebloods" have been Kings long enough. It's time for a "commoner" to come along, and muddy-up the bloodlines a little bit. :ThmbUp:

RacingFan1992
05-22-2015, 04:24 PM
The "Bluebloods" have been Kings long enough. It's time for a "commoner" to come along, and muddy-up the bloodlines a little bit. :ThmbUp:

Look what happened to Smarty Jones. That still warms my heart when Birdstone blew past him in the final stride.

Relwob Owner
05-22-2015, 04:24 PM
Aside from their ability to prove themselves on the track... to even elevate themselves to greatness, horses don't have the ability to be, either, embarrassed by their owners or diminished in the hearts of fans/bettors by those same owners. For this we can be grateful.

At this moment, gentlemen, I could not tell you the names of all 11 Triple Crown owners. Of course, I can tell you those horses.

Owners fade, horses don't. Owners don't deserve a Triple Crown, horses earn them along with their place in history. To believe otherwise is folly.


I agree that horses earn everything but I don't think one can deny that in racing, the public pays attention to owners probably more than in other sports. This is evidenced by the fact that when broadcasting racing, networks almost always focus on stories about the owners of particular horses, as was evidenced by the Preakness and Derby, when Zayat and his son were prominently featured. Nothing negative mentioned in those stories and probably won't be mentioned at Belmont either I imagine.

thaskalos
05-22-2015, 04:28 PM
Look what happened to Smarty Jones. That still warms my heart when Birdstone blew past him in the final stride.
Smarty deserved better, IMO. American Pharoah couldn't shine Smarty's horseshoes.

tucker6
05-22-2015, 04:39 PM
Smarty deserved better, IMO. American Pharoah couldn't shine Smarty's horseshoes.
nobody, including horses, deserves anything. You earn it on the track. If Smarty were a better horse, or ridden better, he'd be a TC champ. Same with The Bid. Same with a couple dozen other horses that failed at the Test of a Champion.

lamboguy
05-22-2015, 04:43 PM
Smarty deserved better, IMO. American Pharoah couldn't shine Smarty's horseshoes. out of all the horses that have won 2 legs of the triple crown, i made SMARTY JONES the weakest of all of them. the horses behind him were all suspect.

i have AMERICAN PHAROAH the best out of all of them. this is why horse players settle their disputes right at the window's. the longer this goes on, the bigger the price will be on AMERICAN PHAROAH. i have him 8 cents to the dollar before they draw the post positions currently.

this horse is a beast, he has actually put on weight, how i don't know, but if he doesn't lose any weight and Baffert doesn't make any mistakes with him, i really don't see how any of these are going to deny him the Belmont.

Grits
05-22-2015, 04:49 PM
I agree that horses earn everything but I don't think one can deny that in racing, the public pays attention to owners probably more than in other sports. This is evidenced by the fact that when broadcasting racing, networks almost always focus on stories about the owners of particular horses, as was evidenced by the Preakness and Derby, when Zayat and his son were prominently featured. Nothing negative mentioned in those stories and probably won't be mentioned at Belmont either I imagine.

Relwob...this is because they can't get any comments from the damn horse!!! They gotta run with something in those hours! :lol:

One thing about it. If Zayat run second this time....he'll go down as the worst case of seconditis in the history of the world.

thaskalos
05-22-2015, 04:54 PM
out of all the horses that have won 2 legs of the triple crown, i made SMARTY JONES the weakest of all of them. the horses behind him were all suspect.

i have AMERICAN PHAROAH the best out of all of them. this is why horse players settle their disputes right at the window's. the longer this goes on, the bigger the price will be on AMERICAN PHAROAH. i have him 8 cents to the dollar before they draw the post positions currently.

this horse is a beast, he has actually put on weight, how i don't know, but if he doesn't lose any weight and Baffert doesn't make any mistakes with him, i really don't see how any of these are going to deny him the Belmont.

I'll give you 80 cents to the dollar right now.

Stillriledup
05-22-2015, 05:20 PM
It certainly seems that there is a lot of evidence against it. There is a site that just went up by some UK horse writer that seems to think not. Here is link http://www.ahmedzayat.com. No new info from yesterday's stories, but there is a lot of damaging info. I still don't know how he got NJ bets to extend credit. And the whole gift to Rubinsky and his sister looks bad. Perfect timing for all of this as its just like the dead week before the Superbowl, and there is nothing else to talk about.

And i bet that no racing jurisdiction ever "investigated" betting patterns that involve any Zayat horses. But racing doesn't care, if a "bad price" shows up nobody seems to care, all people want to do is tell other people its an "ok price" and there's nothing to see. Bottom line?

Nobody in racing cares, they feel bettors will bet anyway, people aren't going to skip a race because Zayat owns a horse running in it just like people won't NOT bet NFL games next year because of the Patriots shenanigans.

lamboguy
05-22-2015, 05:39 PM
I'll give you 80 cents to the dollar right now.i have to take you up on your generous offer

Stillriledup
05-22-2015, 05:43 PM
i have to take you up on your generous offer

I think .80 is high, No way AP will pay 3.60 to win. Probably in the 2.80 to 3.20 range, hard to imagine he will pay higher than 3.20 if he wins but i guess stranger things have happened.

Relwob Owner
05-22-2015, 05:45 PM
Relwob...this is because they can't get any comments from the damn horse!!! They gotta run with something in those hours! :lol:

One thing about it. If Zayat run second this time....he'll go down as the worst case of seconditis in the history of the world.

Agree on both counts:)

thaskalos
05-22-2015, 05:48 PM
i have to take you up on your generous offer
I don't think you'll be able to find a more generous one.

nijinski
05-22-2015, 05:58 PM
Stories of Wolfson and Affirmed often mention the triple crown
win as sweet redemption for him . It certainly was . His legal
problems were complex . Some think he was targeted as he was
an aggressive and successful millionaire .

There were always some who wanted Alydar to beat him just because
of who owned him . I always liked Patrice ad Lou as owners .They
campaigned some of the classiest horses in the sport . Harbor View
is huge in thoroughbred history

Zayat is quite colorful and has his own financial history . He just keeps
up the pursuit though and we certainly need contributing owners who
breed and race these talented horses . Even if I didn't like him I
certainly wouldn't wish ay losing Karma for AP .

Robert Fischer
05-22-2015, 08:45 PM
Zayat seems like a great owner.

I'm not the judge of his financial life. I'll let him and whatever intermediaries deal with those things.

Tom
05-22-2015, 09:15 PM
We need to cut the time from the Preakness to the Belmont to two weeks.
Then there won't be time for threads like this. :bang:

Does he cheat?
Does he abuse his horses?
What the hell else matters?

castaway01
05-23-2015, 08:28 AM
Relwob...this is because they can't get any comments from the damn horse!!! They gotta run with something in those hours! :lol:

One thing about it. If Zayat run second this time....he'll go down as the worst case of seconditis in the history of the world.

Good post Grits. With Triple Crown races, you're spending three hours of coverage on two minutes of action---they're going to talk about anyone interesting who is involved. Lots of time to fill.

Also, it's not as if Jerry Jones gets no coverage during a Cowboys game, and there are other owners in other sports with a high profile as well.

chadk66
05-23-2015, 09:03 AM
this is where we have fallen as a nation. you are no longer innocent until proven guilt. the media now is judge, jury and executioner. they determine ones guilt and innocence for all. just look at the politicians whom the media determines to print their wrongdoings or suspected wrongdoings. Our national elected leaders no longer control this country anymore.

Fager Fan
05-23-2015, 10:00 AM
The guy owed illegal bookies, and some of you don't think that's a problem? Millions. People can get their legs broken for less. And his bankruptcy matters in this case because it was his racing company that filed bankruptcy, not another company that didn't affect those in racing to whom he owed money. He had a close relationship with felons who sit in jail over illegal bookmaking and money laundering. If this guy technically can't be withheld a license, no one with any ethics should want him to have a license or be rewarded.

Then there's the trainer with seven dead horses that a reasonable person would suspect was the result of illegal drugs.

This TC run is nauseating.

chadk66
05-23-2015, 01:43 PM
The guy owed illegal bookies, and some of you don't think that's a problem? Millions. People can get their legs broken for less. And his bankruptcy matters in this case because it was his racing company that filed bankruptcy, not another company that didn't affect those in racing to whom he owed money. He had a close relationship with felons who sit in jail over illegal bookmaking and money laundering. If this guy technically can't be withheld a license, no one with any ethics should want him to have a license or be rewarded.

Then there's the trainer with seven dead horses that a reasonable person would suspect was the result of illegal drugs.

This TC run is nauseating.Was he ever convicted of a felony?

Flysofree
05-23-2015, 02:28 PM
Was he ever convicted of a felony?

Isn't there a trial awaiting him?

Stillriledup
05-23-2015, 02:48 PM
The guy owed illegal bookies, and some of you don't think that's a problem? Millions. People can get their legs broken for less. And his bankruptcy matters in this case because it was his racing company that filed bankruptcy, not another company that didn't affect those in racing to whom he owed money. He had a close relationship with felons who sit in jail over illegal bookmaking and money laundering. If this guy technically can't be withheld a license, no one with any ethics should want him to have a license or be rewarded.

Then there's the trainer with seven dead horses that a reasonable person would suspect was the result of illegal drugs.

This TC run is nauseating.

Hopefully you will be able to read your post again and this time, inhale oxygen deeply and the fresh air will help your nausea.

Thank you for posting this breath of fresh air. :ThmbUp:

Stillriledup
05-23-2015, 02:53 PM
this is where we have fallen as a nation. you are no longer innocent until proven guilt. the media now is judge, jury and executioner. they determine ones guilt and innocence for all. just look at the politicians whom the media determines to print their wrongdoings or suspected wrongdoings. Our national elected leaders no longer control this country anymore.

Since we all have to live in the same society and share it with one another, it behooves all of us to hold others to a very high standard of integrity and honor. As far as innocent until proven guilty, i'm not sure what you mean? When you say "proven" i'll ask "who's proof"?

Flysofree
05-23-2015, 03:11 PM
This just in..Breaking News! Horse racing is a gambling game.. Public's Perception means a whole lot!!!

chadk66
05-23-2015, 03:13 PM
Since we all have to live in the same society and share it with one another, it behooves all of us to hold others to a very high standard of integrity and honor. As far as innocent until proven guilty, i'm not sure what you mean? When you say "proven" i'll ask "who's proof"?a jury of course.

chadk66
05-23-2015, 03:14 PM
Isn't there a trial awaiting him?I have no idea. so your saying he hasn't been convicted of a felony yet?

Fager Fan
05-23-2015, 03:17 PM
Was he ever convicted of a felony?

I've already stated that the standards are very low which is why technically he still has a license.

He's betting millions illegally which A) is illegal, B) takes money from the horsemen and tracks, C) could make race fixing attractive or even necessary, and D) doesn't affect the odds on the track as it should.

Pete Rose can't get in the Hall of Fame for less.

And again, then there are all the dead horses in CA. Perhaps you've found a way to justify that?

Stillriledup
05-23-2015, 03:18 PM
a jury of course.

But there are some instances where "stuff" doesn't go to actual court. For example, the Tom Brady saga. This isn't going to be tried in a US court, so you have to decide if you believe him or not. If you don't believe him, isn't that your right?

Also, as far as courts go, what about OJ and the murder trial. The court said not guilty, should we just honor that if we feel they were wrong?

People (and media) are going to be their own judge and jury with the information they have gathered, its human nature to make decisions on the guilt or innocence of people and not really care what the court or what other people say. We can all think the way we want to think.

Hoofless_Wonder
05-23-2015, 04:24 PM
Compared to most of our Federal politicians, Zayat is a prince.

He used to sell beer, likes to gamble, and has a great horse. Good for him, and good luck in the Belmont, 'cause he'll need it....

Relwob Owner
05-23-2015, 04:35 PM
Compared to most of our Federal politicians, Zayat is a prince.

He used to sell beer, likes to gamble, and has a great horse. Good for him, and good luck in the Belmont, 'cause he'll need it....

It always amazes me that when defending someone, people go to the "well, he isn't as bad as that other person or group of people" as if that is some sort of legitimate defense..

Sure he likes to gamble but it seems that in this and other alleged situations, he has a difficult time when it comes to paying those that he owes money and if any of it is true, makes him a very tough person to root for.

Grits
05-23-2015, 05:51 PM
"It's about the horse".

The Zayat's mantra. They grandstanded, mightily, to the masses via Twitter and news outlets. They were applauded, high fived, and patted on the back for their valiant, costly efforts to save their stallion, Paynter.

Then. There was Nehro. Hidden, in a short, but much viewed video we learned from Scott Blasi's colorful language the horrible, severe condition of this animal's feet. The Zayats continued to keep him in training. Sending him to the track to train every day. Still trying.

Perhaps I'm making a mistake bringing up Nehro. But I don't care. After all, "its about the horse", right? I've always had a softness for any beings who've known great pain.

"Rest, still, in peace, Nehro. If AP wins the Belmont? I'll smile because, regardless what his owner states, it'll be his achievement alone."

Hoofless_Wonder
05-23-2015, 05:59 PM
It always amazes me that when defending someone, people go to the "well, he isn't as bad as that other person or group of people" as if that is some sort of legitimate defense..

Sure he likes to gamble but it seems that in this and other alleged situations, he has a difficult time when it comes to paying those that he owes money and if any of it is true, makes him a very tough person to root for.

I'm not defending him and his lack of integrity for not honoring his debts.

But it's hardly a reason to get our knickers in a twist when the sport has much bigger problems and far worse criminal activity being committed by public figures.

chadk66
05-23-2015, 06:21 PM
I'm not arguing the dude is a low life schmuck. He may very well be. The problem you have is the rules for obtaining a owners license doesn't prevent schmucks from getting a license. It prevents "felons" from getting a license. If you don't want schmucks from getting a license contact the state legislatures and tell them your feelings. If there was special treatment being granted Zayat then you'd have a reason to complain. But there hasn't been.

Stillriledup
05-23-2015, 06:26 PM
I'm not arguing the dude is a low life schmuck. He may very well be. The problem you have is the rules for obtaining a owners license doesn't prevent schmucks from getting a license. It prevents "felons" from getting a license. If you don't want schmucks from getting a license contact the state legislatures and tell them your feelings. If there was special treatment being granted Zayat then you'd have a reason to complain. But there hasn't been.

I don't know if owners are held to the same standard as jocks and trainers, but can a participant be suspended or fined or disciplined in any way for conduct "Detrimental to racing"? In other words, you don't have to really break any laws or rules, but if the perception is that something you did is bad for the game, can't you get supplementary discipline?

I don't know what you sign off on when you sign the license application, maybe there's a 'conduct detrimental to racing' clause that people have to abide by?

Relwob Owner
05-23-2015, 06:27 PM
"It's about the horse".

The Zayat's mantra. They grandstanded, mightily, to the masses via Twitter and news outlets. They were applauded, high fived, and patted on the back for their valiant, costly efforts to save their stallion, Paynter.

Then. There was Nehro. Hidden, in a short, but much viewed video we learned from Scott Blasi's colorful language the horrible, severe condition of this animal's feet. The Zayats continued to keep him in training. Sending him to the track to train every day. Still trying.

Perhaps I'm making a mistake bringing up Nehro. But I don't care. After all, "its about the horse", right? I've always had a softness for any beings who've known great pain.

"Rest, still, in peace, Nehro. If AP wins the Belmont? I'll smile because, regardless what his owner states, it'll be his achievement alone."


Good work bring up Nehro and it sort of runs opposite to the Paynter saga. As far as Paynter goes, yes, they did all they could to help the horse, which is admirable and they made sure everyone was well aware of it.. From a devil's advocate's perspective, that horse had made them a sizable profit, I believe, and they also had financial motivations at play to run the horse again and eventually breed him as well.

Relwob Owner
05-23-2015, 06:29 PM
I'm not arguing the dude is a low life schmuck. He may very well be. The problem you have is the rules for obtaining a owners license doesn't prevent schmucks from getting a license. It prevents "felons" from getting a license. If you don't want schmucks from getting a license contact the state legislatures and tell them your feelings. If there was special treatment being granted Zayat then you'd have a reason to complain. But there hasn't been.


Im in 100 percent agreement that I dont see anything keeping him from owning a horse. I think the post you initially responded to did lean towards acknowledging he may be able to get a license but him being almost impossible to root for as well. You having been a trainer, I imagine you may feel the same way, as he, I believe, has allegedly left trainers high and dry in the past as well.

chadk66
05-23-2015, 07:23 PM
I don't know if owners are held to the same standard as jocks and trainers, but can a participant be suspended or fined or disciplined in any way for conduct "Detrimental to racing"? In other words, you don't have to really break any laws or rules, but if the perception is that something you did is bad for the game, can't you get supplementary discipline?

I don't know what you sign off on when you sign the license application, maybe there's a 'conduct detrimental to racing' clause that people have to abide by?varies from State to State. Each state has their own rules regarding who can possess a license. I don't know of any state that will suspend a license for anything other than a felony or an actual instance that took place on the grounds of a track in that state that was serious enough to warrant revoking a license.

chadk66
05-23-2015, 07:25 PM
Im in 100 percent agreement that I dont see anything keeping him from owning a horse. I think the post you initially responded to did lean towards acknowledging he may be able to get a license but him being almost impossible to root for as well. You having been a trainer, I imagine you may feel the same way, as he, I believe, has allegedly left trainers high and dry in the past as well.Some people certainly shouldn't be allowed to be involved with this industry. But I also believe in allowing the legal course to run first.

magwell
05-23-2015, 07:30 PM
I'm rooting for him and his horse AP more than ever now, he's put a fortune in the game and deserves all the good luck possible.......:cool:

SmartyParty
05-23-2015, 08:34 PM
Aside from their ability to prove themselves on the track... to even elevate themselves to greatness, horses don't have the ability to be, either, embarrassed by their owners or diminished in the hearts of fans/bettors by those same owners. For this we can be grateful.

At this moment, gentlemen, I could not tell you the names of all 11 Triple Crown owners. Of course, I can tell you those horses.

Owners fade, horses don't. Owners don't deserve a Triple Crown, horses earn them along with their place in history. To believe otherwise is folly.

Wow! As someone who cares for neither Zayat or Baffert, your quote, as usual Grits, helps me focus on The Horse! Thank you.

Fager Fan
05-23-2015, 08:38 PM
"It's about the horse".

The Zayat's mantra. They grandstanded, mightily, to the masses via Twitter and news outlets. They were applauded, high fived, and patted on the back for their valiant, costly efforts to save their stallion, Paynter.

Then. There was Nehro. Hidden, in a short, but much viewed video we learned from Scott Blasi's colorful language the horrible, severe condition of this animal's feet. The Zayats continued to keep him in training. Sending him to the track to train every day. Still trying.

Perhaps I'm making a mistake bringing up Nehro. But I don't care. After all, "its about the horse", right? I've always had a softness for any beings who've known great pain.

"Rest, still, in peace, Nehro. If AP wins the Belmont? I'll smile because, regardless what his owner states, it'll be his achievement alone."

Grits, a lot of fans don't consider that there are two parties involved in a horse of this stature being put down. Insurance companies deal directly with the vets involved too, and their decision to pay out or not had a big impact on the owner's decision to euthanize or continue vet treatment.

SmartyParty
05-23-2015, 08:45 PM
"It's about the horse".

The Zayat's mantra. They grandstanded, mightily, to the masses via Twitter and news outlets. They were applauded, high fived, and patted on the back for their valiant, costly efforts to save their stallion, Paynter.

Then. There was Nehro. Hidden, in a short, but much viewed video we learned from Scott Blasi's colorful language the horrible, severe condition of this animal's feet. The Zayats continued to keep him in training. Sending him to the track to train every day. Still trying.

Perhaps I'm making a mistake bringing up Nehro. But I don't care. After all, "its about the horse", right? I've always had a softness for any beings who've known great pain.

"Rest, still, in peace, Nehro. If AP wins the Belmont? I'll smile because, regardless what his owner states, it'll be his achievement alone."

Yes, Grits, I think you should bring up Nehro because that pretty much says it all. So hard to root for Zayat. Easy to root for American Pharoah.

Relwob Owner
05-23-2015, 09:35 PM
Yes, Grits, I think you should bring up Nehro because that pretty much says it all. So hard to root for Zayat. Easy to root for American Pharoah.

Extremely well put :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

magwell
05-23-2015, 09:42 PM
Yes, Grits, I think you should bring up Nehro because that pretty much says it all. So hard to root for Zayat. Easy to root for American Pharoah.Bringing up Nehro is a cheap shot, when it was exposed of his true condition, Zayat fired the trainer Asmussen.......

Relwob Owner
05-23-2015, 09:57 PM
Bringing up Nehro is a cheap shot, when it was exposed of his true condition, Zayat fired the trainer Asmussen.......

Yeah, it had everything to do with being now suddenly aware of Nehro's condition and nothing to do with wanting to distance himself from Asmussen, right???

magwell
05-23-2015, 10:07 PM
Yeah, it had everything to do with being now suddenly aware of Nehro's condition and nothing to do with wanting to distance himself from Asmussen, right???Yeah, do you honestly think if the owner knew of the true condition of that horse, he would have told the trainer to continue to run him ? come on man......

lamboguy
05-23-2015, 10:10 PM
good horses get injuries, the really good ones train with those injuries. the line gets drawn when the trainer's give the injured horse help to keep him going, that's when the horses well being has become compromised.

chadk66
05-23-2015, 10:10 PM
Yeah, do you honestly think if the owner knew of the true condition of that horse, he would have told the trainer to continue to run him ? come on man......one has to remember the majority of owners know very little about a horses health/condition. In fact there are many that if you moved the horse to a different stall and had a horse of a somewhat similar appearance in the previous stall, they wouldn't even know it was a different horse.

Relwob Owner
05-23-2015, 10:18 PM
Yeah, do you honestly think if the owner knew of the true condition of that horse, he would have told the trainer to continue to run him ? come on man......

No clue but his self righteous attitude and the quotes from him when he did were laughable. He claimed to have been "shocked,hurt, etc" when he saw the video......gotta wonder:Why did he initially hire a guy(Asmussen) who had well documented medication violations in the first place? Where was this concern for the horse then?

Fager Fan
05-23-2015, 10:22 PM
Bringing up Nehro is a cheap shot, when it was exposed of his true condition, Zayat fired the trainer Asmussen.......

What? When a horse has feet issues of any sort the owner knows due to the farrier and vet bills. There's not a chance an owner doesn't know about a chronic foot issue.

magwell
05-23-2015, 10:34 PM
What? When a horse has feet issues of any sort the owner knows due to the farrier and vet bills. There's not a chance an owner doesn't know about a chronic foot issue.Plenty of horses have foot issues and looking a the bills which most owners dont understand completely, if the trainer doesent tell them how serious it is they dont know.......do you really think Zayat really knew how bad that horse was and said go on with him ?

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 01:02 AM
Plenty of horses have foot issues and looking a the bills which most owners dont understand completely, if the trainer doesent tell them how serious it is they dont know.......do you really think Zayat really knew how bad that horse was and said go on with him ?

If an owner or racing manager doesn't ask about the special shoes or the non-maintenance vet bills, then he has himself to blame for doing a crappy job.

Why wouldn't I believe Zayat said to continue on with the horse? Either he did or Asmussen did, and the former is the only one of the two to have a financial incentive to run him.

magwell
05-24-2015, 01:54 AM
If an owner or racing manager doesn't ask about the special shoes or the non-maintenance vet bills, then he has himself to blame for doing a crappy job.

Why wouldn't I believe Zayat said to continue on with the horse? Either he did or Asmussen did, and the former is the only one of the two to have a financial incentive to run him.I wont comment, obviously we are on different channels.........;)

chadk66
05-24-2015, 09:26 AM
I think owners that aren't loaded with money pay very close attention to every bill they receive. Those that have tons of money really don't pay attention nor care. I think that's where the disconnect is.

davew
05-24-2015, 09:33 AM
What ethical/legal/financial standards should be required for horse ownership? If the United States will allow a perjurer, crook, thief, or dirty lawyer that has been disbarred hold the office or run for President ... why would horse ownership be set at a higher standard?

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 10:00 AM
I think owners that aren't loaded with money pay very close attention to every bill they receive. Those that have tons of money really don't pay attention nor care. I think that's where the disconnect is.

Do you have anything to back that up? The wealthy owners I know got that way from being smart in their business, including racing. This is a guy who not only is very involved with the horses but has so-called racing managers in addition to himself. Yet none were actually doing the job of a racing manager? Whose fault is that? Zayat's claim that he knew nothing about the horse having bad feet is totally unbelievable. More believable would've been that he knew the horse had feet issues but he took his trainer's word that it was managable. Instead, we have the barn, not knowing they were being taped, saying they wanted to stop on the horse. So yes, it's totally believable that Zayat knew the horse had feet issues and had the trainer continue on with him.

chadk66
05-24-2015, 10:09 AM
Do you have anything to back that up? The wealthy owners I know got that way from being smart in their business, including racing. This is a guy who not only is very involved with the horses but has so-called racing managers in addition to himself. Yet none were actually doing the job of a racing manager? Whose fault is that? Zayat's claim that he knew nothing about the horse having bad feet is totally unbelievable. More believable would've been that he knew the horse had feet issues but he took his trainer's word that it was managable. Instead, we have the barn, not knowing they were being taped, saying they wanted to stop on the horse. So yes, it's totally believable that Zayat knew the horse had feet issues and had the trainer continue on with him.I sure do. years of training horses for owners that had very little money to owners with millions. Some of the wealthy ones didn't care if their vet or shoeing bill was a few hundred bucks more a month than their other horses. three hundred a month is trivial to them. Now if you start talking thousands plus then they pay attention.

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 10:48 AM
I sure do. years of training horses for owners that had very little money to owners with millions. Some of the wealthy ones didn't care if their vet or shoeing bill was a few hundred bucks more a month than their other horses. three hundred a month is trivial to them. Now if you start talking thousands plus then they pay attention.

Not caring that it cost a few hundred for the special shoes doesn't mean they didn't note the special shoes or inquire why the horse needs them.

chadk66
05-24-2015, 12:42 PM
Not caring that it cost a few hundred for the special shoes doesn't mean they didn't note the special shoes or inquire why the horse needs them.they often times don't even ask. probably because they don't even know what the hell it is. your giving owners far too much credit.

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 12:51 PM
they often times don't even ask. probably because they don't even know what the hell it is. your giving owners far too much credit.

Well, we can keep going round and round on this one, but I think you're giving owners too little credit. And I'll repeat that this owner has so-called "racing managers" in addition to himself. If he didn't know about the feet issues with Nehro, it's his own fault. But I don't believe for a second he didn't know about them. A horse with feet issues is going to be missing some works and some races, and surely the trainer told him why. That's in addition to the high farrier charges if he wore glue-ons or other special shoes, and vet bills tending to his feet. So he knew, and he blatantly lied when he said he didn't. If he said he was unaware of how bad they were, that's believable. That he didn't know at all that the horse had feet issues? 100% unbelievable.

magwell
05-24-2015, 01:01 PM
Well, we can keep going round and round on this one, but I think you're giving owners too little credit. And I'll repeat that this owner has so-called "racing managers" in addition to himself. If he didn't know about the feet issues with Nehro, it's his own fault. But I don't believe for a second he didn't know about them. A horse with feet issues is going to be missing some works and some races, and surely the trainer told him why. That's in addition to the high farrier charges if he wore glue-ons or other special shoes, and vet bills tending to his feet. So he knew, and he blatantly lied when he said he didn't. If he said he was unaware of how bad they were, that's believable. That he didn't know at all that the horse had feet issues? 100% unbelievable.He speaks kindly of you.........:)

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 01:11 PM
He speaks kindly of you.........:)

He didn't speak kindly of Asmussen.

nijinski
05-24-2015, 04:07 PM
Not caring that it cost a few hundred for the special shoes doesn't mean they didn't note the special shoes or inquire why the horse needs them.

Some just paid the bills . The very wealthy Henryk de Kwiatkowski who
later purchased Calumet gave full control to Woody Stephens who would
go ahead with vet work and not have to report all matters to him .
He just paid him to get the job done and went on with his busy lifestyle .

Stillriledup
05-24-2015, 04:14 PM
What? When a horse has feet issues of any sort the owner knows due to the farrier and vet bills. There's not a chance an owner doesn't know about a chronic foot issue.

The 64 dollar question is this. Is claiming ignorance acceptable. Or, are "owners" of things ultimately the responsible ones.

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 04:40 PM
The 64 dollar question is this. Is claiming ignorance acceptable. Or, are "owners" of things ultimately the responsible ones.

Sometimes an occasional ignorance is understandable. Given how the owners are 100% at the mercy of his trainer, the trainers who deliberately hide things from their owners make the owners ignorant not by the owners' choice.

This isn't one of those cases. Asmussen couldn't hide chronic feet issues from an owner who is just barely paying attention. Works and races every owner knows, and why they didn't work or make a race.

chadk66
05-24-2015, 04:47 PM
Some just paid the bills . The very wealthy Henryk de Kwiatkowski who
later purchased Calumet gave full control to Woody Stephens who would
go ahead with vet work and not have to report all matters to him .
He just paid him to get the job done and went on with his busy lifestyle .exactly. nobody knows for sure what the situation was with Zayat and Steve. It's completely speculation.

Relwob Owner
05-24-2015, 05:23 PM
exactly. nobody knows for sure what the situation was with Zayat and Steve. It's completely speculation.

What isn't speculation is that Zayat was using a trainer that had well documented violations and suspensions. For that reason, all of his dramatic comments about how mortified he was when he saw that video seemed so ingenuine to me. If he cared so much about that horse and others, why give them to a trainer who has been caught giving horses illegal drugs?

nijinski
05-24-2015, 05:29 PM
What isn't speculation is that Zayat was using a trainer that had well documented violations and suspensions. For that reason, all of his dramatic comments about how mortified he was when he saw that video seemed so ingenuine to me. If he cared so much about that horse and others, why give them to a trainer who has been caught giving horses illegal drugs?

Owners are attracted by success and perhaps Rachel and Curlin sparked
that .
Your not saying much for Mr Winchell .

magwell
05-24-2015, 05:51 PM
Owners are attracted by success and perhaps Rachel and Curlin sparked
that .
Your not saying much for Mr Winchell .Hes just talking nonsense speculation, Asmussen won over a 100 races this year already, he probably turns business away.......:cool:

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 05:56 PM
exactly. nobody knows for sure what the situation was with Zayat and Steve. It's completely speculation.

It's speculation based on facts. People are even on death row with that degree of knowledge.

A heavily involved owner, who in addition to himself has always employed a racing manager, somehow didn't notice missed works and missed races, and atypical farrier and vet charges, and it never came up in any trainer discussion about the horse, and he never noticed anything about the horse when they saw him?

Despite Zayat's penchant to solely blame others, this should be a time he wants us to believe he's not being honest, because if true, he and his racing manager were Barny Fife incompetent.

magwell
05-24-2015, 06:07 PM
It's speculation based on facts. People are even on death row with that degree of knowledge.

A heavily involved owner, who in addition to himself has always employed a racing manager, somehow didn't notice missed works and missed races, and atypical farrier and vet charges, and it never came up in any trainer discussion about the horse, and he never noticed anything about the horse when they saw him?

Despite Zayat's penchant to solely blame others, this should be a time he wants us to believe he's not being honest, because if true, he and his racing manager were Barny Fife incompetent.Talk about sour nonsense , this takes it to a higher level, maybe its just bad jealousy hard to figure, the outfit he's knocking put a lot of money and time in the game, probably 5 trainers around the country has couple hundred head with breeding stock, its just knocking the winners as usual with speculation .......

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 06:26 PM
Talk about sour nonsense , this takes it to a higher level, maybe its just bad jealousy hard to figure, the outfit he's knocking put a lot of money and time in the game, probably 5 trainers around the country has couple hundred head with breeding stock, its just knocking the winners as usual with speculation .......

So your argument is that Asmussen, the guy you just defended in another post, is the bad guy in this situation? What's to stop us from calling your viewpoint sour nonsense at a higher level?

Relwob Owner
05-24-2015, 06:30 PM
Hes just talking nonsense speculation, Asmussen won over a 100 races this year already, he probably turns business away.......:cool:

Who is talking about how much business Asmussen turned away? As far as "nonsense speculation", read my words and that will help you to give informed responses. I have no clue(as is shown below in my response to you) if he knew about Nehro's foot but what isn't speculation is that Zayat used and subjected his horses to a guy who had several violations and a pretty lengthy suspension. To refresh, below is our exchange and maybe you can respond directly this time instead of referring to me in a post to someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magwell
Yeah, do you honestly think if the owner knew of the true condition of that horse, he would have told the trainer to continue to run him ? come on man......


RO-No clue but his self righteous attitude and the quotes from him when he did were laughable. He claimed to have been "shocked,hurt, etc" when he saw the video......gotta wonder:Why did he initially hire a guy(Asmussen) who had well documented medication violations in the first place? Where was this concern for the horse then?

Relwob Owner
05-24-2015, 06:32 PM
Owners are attracted by success and perhaps Rachel and Curlin sparked
that .
Your not saying much for Mr Winchell .


Couldn't agree more. Owners want to win, some at all costs and I would put Zayat in that bucket based on him using Asmussen. So what if the trainer had been nailed using illegal drugs? Win at all costs.....thanks for helping me to prove my point.

magwell
05-24-2015, 06:38 PM
Couldn't agree more. Owners want to win, some at all costs and I would put Zayat in that bucket based on him using Asmussen. So what if the trainer had been nailed using illegal drugs? Win at all costs.....thanks for helping me to prove my point.You must have real beef with Zayat, your point is nonsense, is that direct enough ? btw he speaks kindly of you....;)

Stillriledup
05-24-2015, 06:48 PM
You must have real beef with Zayat, your point is nonsense, is that direct enough ? btw he speaks kindly of you....;)

Mags, i think the argument some are making is that once Zayat knows that his trainer has been busted for cheating and or unethical practices to win at all costs, he can choose to go to a trainer with a higher moral fibre, one who puts the horse first even at the expense of winning, or he can stick with "his guy" and look the other way and play the "i dont know anything about it" game.

magwell
05-24-2015, 06:53 PM
So your argument is that Asmussen, the guy you just defended in another post, is the bad guy in this situation? What's to stop us from calling your viewpoint sour nonsense at a higher level?I dont know who the bad guys is, its all speculation and I'm trying to defend Zayat obviously a few people here are against him, let it go .....:D

Relwob Owner
05-24-2015, 06:53 PM
You must have real beef with Zayat, your point is nonsense, is that direct enough ? btw he speaks kindly of you....;)

He acts surprised a guy who has given his horses illegal drugs treated his horse badly and I wonder why he gave that guy horses....what about that is nonsense?

My beef with him is simply a negative opinion of him based on the fact that he has allegedly not paid debts in multiple situations. Its an opinion and expressing those what forums like this are for in expressing, no?

No interest in getting in an argument with ya though. You have a strong opinion and I respect that. Neither of us really know the guy, but it is cool to agree to disagree and I appreciate the debate with you regardless.

chadk66
05-24-2015, 06:57 PM
What isn't speculation is that Zayat was using a trainer that had well documented violations and suspensions. For that reason, all of his dramatic comments about how mortified he was when he saw that video seemed so ingenuine to me. If he cared so much about that horse and others, why give them to a trainer who has been caught giving horses illegal drugs?I won't say that he didn't know but we don't know that he did. Like I said it's speculation. And yes Steve has a record of drug usage as does a zillion other trainers. And that is a good question why give him the horses. Well as listed below he has success with top horses. This game is a popularity game. I know Steve personally. I ran horses against him day after day for many years. Back when he was nobody. If his brother wasn't Cash he probably would still be a regular Joe. He does nothing special. He is involved with the numbers game.

magwell
05-24-2015, 06:58 PM
Mags, i think the argument some are making is that once Zayat knows that his trainer has been busted for cheating and or unethical practices to win at all costs, he can choose to go to a trainer with a higher moral fibre, one who puts the horse first even at the expense of winning, or he can stick with "his guy" and look the other way and play the "i dont know anything about it" game.I agree and he fired the trainer, he has others, some people here just cant root for a TC winner because of the owner..... like Grits says its about the horse

Relwob Owner
05-24-2015, 07:03 PM
I agree and he fired the trainer, he has others, some people here just cant root for a TC winner because of the owner..... like Grits says its about the horse

I think a post on this or another similar thread said "Its hard to root for Zayat and easy to root for AP.". I thought that summed things well.

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 07:05 PM
I dont know who the bad guys is, its all speculation and I'm trying to defend Zayat obviously a few people here are against him, let it go .....:D

You're apparently ignorant to the fact that when you defend Zayat's statement as truth, then you have to blame Asmussen as Zayat said. So take a side as there is no middle (as the crushing of your arguments by multiple people here is proving).

magwell
05-24-2015, 07:06 PM
He acts surprised a guy who has given his horses illegal drugs treated his horse badly and I wonder why he gave that guy horses....what about that is nonsense?

My beef with him is simply a negative opinion of him based on the fact that he has allegedly not paid debts in multiple situations. Its an opinion and expressing those what forums like this are for in expressing, no?

No interest in getting in an argument with ya though. You have a strong opinion and I respect that. Neither of us really know the guy, but it is cool to agree to disagree and I appreciate the debate with you regardless.Partner, we are good no problem I may have come on too strong sorry about that, better we talk other sports ;)

Relwob Owner
05-24-2015, 07:10 PM
Partner, we are good no problem I may have come on too strong sorry about that, better we talk other sports ;)

No worries, my friend. I thing have come on too strong a lot on here, probably because I am passionate about things so it was probably on my end too. I am good discussing anything with ya :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

CryingForTheHorses
05-24-2015, 07:10 PM
Im only rooting for one thing..The horse..Hope he wins the Belmont!

magwell
05-24-2015, 07:12 PM
You're apparently ignorant to the fact that when you defend Zayat's statement as truth, then you have to blame Asmussen as Zayat said. So take a side as there is no middle (as the crushing of your arguments by multiple people here is proving).My man, I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time or the last time I'm sure ......I just would love to see the horse win the TC .......:cool:

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 07:13 PM
I agree and he fired the trainer, he has others, some people here just cant root for a TC winner because of the owner..... like Grits says its about the horse


You realize the trophy and tens of millions of dollars goes to the owner and trainer, not the horse, right? You can have zero standards for the owner and trainer of the next TC winner, but understand that others do have minimum standards. Zayat bothers me a lot less than the trainer who had 7 horses drop dead. I don't want to see those actions rewarded, and you don't mind that they are.

magwell
05-24-2015, 07:18 PM
You realize the trophy and tens of millions of dollars goes to the owner and trainer, not the horse, right? You can have zero standards for the owner and trainer of the next TC winner, but understand that others do have minimum standards. Zayat bothers me a lot less than the trainer who had 7 horses drop dead. I don't want to see those actions rewarded, and you don't mind that they are.I respect your opinion, I'm rooting for the horse.........:)

Stillriledup
05-24-2015, 07:18 PM
You realize the trophy and tens of millions of dollars goes to the owner and trainer, not the horse, right? You can have zero standards for the owner and trainer of the next TC winner, but understand that others do have minimum standards. Zayat bothers me a lot less than the trainer who had 7 horses drop dead. I don't want to see those actions rewarded, and you don't mind that they are.

I agree owner hard to root for, trainer harder to root for yet, nobody (besides you) seems to mention that.

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 07:33 PM
I agree owner hard to root for, trainer harder to root for yet, nobody (besides you) seems to mention that.

It seems some want a TC winner that they'll pull for any horse to do it. I'd rather wait another year or two and root for the next one who has connections more deserving of the ultimate prize in racing.

Elliott Sidewater
05-24-2015, 07:38 PM
If there's anything New Yorkers like more than a 4 to 5 shot, it's a 2 to 5 shot. And that's what I think the final price will be. IMO that will be an underlay, not bettable. But I'm not saying I think American Pharoah will lose. When it comes to "historic" races, I don't feel a need to bet, the race itself is big enough. Does anyone remember Shoe's last ride??? Fantastic underlay. The "back story" is always the same after the cinch loses, "I was going to frame the tickets anyway, never did I have a thought of cashing them". OK buddy, whatever you say..............

Stillriledup
05-24-2015, 07:44 PM
It seems some want a TC winner that they'll pull for any horse to do it. I'd rather wait another year or two and root for the next one who has connections more deserving of the ultimate prize in racing.

I agree, there's no need to root for just anyone. Some people are hard to root for, if i'm going to "root" with nothing in it for me, at least i'm going to root for someone worth rooting for, that's the least i could do.

nijinski
05-24-2015, 08:46 PM
It seems some want a TC winner that they'll pull for any horse to do it. I'd rather wait another year or two and root for the next one who has connections more deserving of the ultimate prize in racing.

You really have it in for the horse judging from your initial sentence .

Would you be happy if Alydar was booted from the Hall Of Fame ?
That's an ultimate reward .
He was inducted when Lundy owned him . Patrick Biancone accepted
the award for the ousted Veitch . :confused:

It's about the horse and what the horse accomplished .

There is a Triple Crown bid coming up and many want to see AP win
it , no matter what .

Fager Fan
05-24-2015, 09:33 PM
You really have it in for the horse judging from your initial sentence .

Would you be happy if Alydar was booted from the Hall Of Fame ?
That's an ultimate reward .
He was inducted when Lundy owned him . Patrick Biancone accepted
the award for the ousted Veitch . :confused:

It's about the horse and what the horse accomplished .

There is a Triple Crown bid coming up and many want to see AP win
it , no matter what .

Those people aren't very thoughtful. The next trainer and owner to win the TC will be the ambassadors of racing for the next 20 years.

luisbe
05-24-2015, 10:14 PM
It seems some want a TC winner that they'll pull for any horse to do it. I'd rather wait another year or two and root for the next one who has connections more deserving of the ultimate prize in racing.
What about executing the horse? maybe he loves the owner.

thespaah
05-25-2015, 11:31 PM
Aside from their ability to prove themselves on the track... to even elevate themselves to greatness, horses don't have the ability to be, either, embarrassed by their owners or diminished in the hearts of fans/bettors by those same owners. For this we can be grateful.

At this moment, gentlemen, I could not tell you the names of all 11 Triple Crown owners. Of course, I can tell you those horses.

Owners fade, horses don't. Owners don't deserve a Triple Crown, horses earn them along with their place in history. To believe otherwise is folly.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

PaceAdvantage
05-26-2015, 04:14 PM
I've already stated that the standards are very low which is why technically he still has a license.

He's betting millions illegally which A) is illegal, B) takes money from the horsemen and tracks, C) could make race fixing attractive or even necessary, and D) doesn't affect the odds on the track as it should.

Pete Rose can't get in the Hall of Fame for less.

And again, then there are all the dead horses in CA. Perhaps you've found a way to justify that?You have zero proof of any of this. In fact, there is no proof he was betting anything, let alone illegally...stop the nonsense and the libel...

PaceAdvantage
05-26-2015, 04:18 PM
Do you have anything to back that up?Now that's funny.

Fager Fan
05-26-2015, 10:05 PM
You have zero proof of any of this. In fact, there is no proof he was betting anything, let alone illegally...stop the nonsense and the libel...

i also think OJ murdered 2 people. I'll take my chances whether Zayat or OJ have good libel cases against me.

Fager Fan
05-26-2015, 10:16 PM
Gambling cases
Zayat's bankruptcy helped expose other problems. Among the people who owed him money, his bankruptcy filings revealed four loans to members of the Jelinsky family.[19] Two members of that family, Michael and Jeffrey Jelinsky, had pled guilty in 2009 to illegal bookmaking. As a result, the racing commissions in California and Kentucky opened investigations on Zayat;[20] racing licensees are not to associate with bookmakers or convicted felons.[21] Zayat claimed that he had no knowledge of the Jelinskys' illegal acts. He stated that he thought the brothers were professional gamblers and that they had financial need.[20] Further, he said he loaned them money because he knew their father and that the money they owed him was unrelated to gambling; he stated that some of the money he loaned was to assist one of the brothers with a divorce.[21] He was cleared in both states. Although New York also stated that they were investigating,[22] there were no news reports of any adverse action.[c] Zayat stated that he had been visited by federal agents who played tapes where the Jelinsky brothers discussed how they had cheated Zayat out of money by giving him bad betting advice.[9]

In an unrelated case, Zayat was mentioned in a 2013 lawsuit between Freehold Raceway and the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority.[9] The plaintiffs alleged that Zayat was allowed to bet on credit, which was a violation of state law.[23] Zayat had been betting $200,000 a week through New Jersey's online betting system, and the agency allowed him to "float" $286,000 in credit, "as a courtesy."[9] Zayat was not a party to the lawsuit and he paid off all debts owed to the Sports Authority. The records containing Zayat's name were later redacted, but an internal email indicated that Zayat had wagered a total of at least $8.3 million.[24]

On March 10, 2014, a lawsuit against Zayat was filed in the New Jersey Federal District Court.[25] The plaintiff was an associate of the Jelinskys who also pled guilty in the illegal betting operation, Howard Rubinsky, who alleged breach of contract, claiming that Zayat failed to pay off a $1.65 million line of credit in 2004. Rubinsky's claim was that he extended credit to Zayat with Tradewinds Sportsbook for the purpose of betting on horse races via a gambling website set up in Costa Rica. Zayat's lawyer described the suit as “a meritless claim”,[9] filed a motion to dismiss in 2015 alleging lack of evidence,[18] and argued that the statute of limitations had passed after six years.[26] Zayat stated in court documents that he had met Rubinsky and loaned him money but said, " I can say unequivocally that I did not give Mr. Rubinsky any money as payment on any debt ... I agreed to give him money because he told me he was ill and broke."[18] As of May 2015 the suit is still pending.

Flysofree
05-26-2015, 10:25 PM
Gambling cases
Zayat's bankruptcy helped expose other problems. Among the people who owed him money, his bankruptcy filings revealed four loans to members of the Jelinsky family.[19] Two members of that family, Michael and Jeffrey Jelinsky, had pled guilty in 2009 to illegal bookmaking. As a result, the racing commissions in California and Kentucky opened investigations on Zayat;[20] racing licensees are not to associate with bookmakers or convicted felons.[21] Zayat claimed that he had no knowledge of the Jelinskys' illegal acts. He stated that he thought the brothers were professional gamblers and that they had financial need.[20] Further, he said he loaned them money because he knew their father and that the money they owed him was unrelated to gambling; he stated that some of the money he loaned was to assist one of the brothers with a divorce.[21] He was cleared in both states. Although New York also stated that they were investigating,[22] there were no news reports of any adverse action.[c] Zayat stated that he had been visited by federal agents who played tapes where the Jelinsky brothers discussed how they had cheated Zayat out of money by giving him bad betting advice.[9]

In an unrelated case, Zayat was mentioned in a 2013 lawsuit between Freehold Raceway and the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority.[9] The plaintiffs alleged that Zayat was allowed to bet on credit, which was a violation of state law.[23] Zayat had been betting $200,000 a week through New Jersey's online betting system, and the agency allowed him to "float" $286,000 in credit, "as a courtesy."[9] Zayat was not a party to the lawsuit and he paid off all debts owed to the Sports Authority. The records containing Zayat's name were later redacted, but an internal email indicated that Zayat had wagered a total of at least $8.3 million.[24]

On March 10, 2014, a lawsuit against Zayat was filed in the New Jersey Federal District Court.[25] The plaintiff was an associate of the Jelinskys who also pled guilty in the illegal betting operation, Howard Rubinsky, who alleged breach of contract, claiming that Zayat failed to pay off a $1.65 million line of credit in 2004. Rubinsky's claim was that he extended credit to Zayat with Tradewinds Sportsbook for the purpose of betting on horse races via a gambling website set up in Costa Rica. Zayat's lawyer described the suit as “a meritless claim”,[9] filed a motion to dismiss in 2015 alleging lack of evidence,[18] and argued that the statute of limitations had passed after six years.[26] Zayat stated in court documents that he had met Rubinsky and loaned him money but said, " I can say unequivocally that I did not give Mr. Rubinsky any money as payment on any debt ... I agreed to give him money because he told me he was ill and broke."[18] As of May 2015 the suit is still pending.

This guy does NOTHING to help the sport's image. Has nothing to do with his horse, but I have to hope he doesn't celebrate with a triple crown!
I agree with your analysis of him.

tucker6
05-26-2015, 10:34 PM
why anyone on a horse racing (handicapping/betting) forum cares about an owner bankruptcy and/or partnership dealings is beyond me. That's like looking in a casino window and being shocked, SHOCKED by the gambling occurring inside. AFAIK, the Belmont and the Triple Crown is and should be about the horse. I frankly don't give a damn about Zayat.

Fager Fan
05-26-2015, 10:52 PM
why anyone on a horse racing (handicapping/betting) forum cares about an owner bankruptcy and/or partnership dealings is beyond me. That's like looking in a casino window and being shocked, SHOCKED by the gambling occurring inside. AFAIK, the Belmont and the Triple Crown is and should be about the horse. I frankly don't give a damn about Zayat.

It's been 42 years and we're still stuck with Penny and Ron. Thank God we don't mind being stuck with them.

affirmedny
05-26-2015, 11:03 PM
why anyone on a horse racing (handicapping/betting) forum cares about an owner bankruptcy and/or partnership dealings is beyond me. That's like looking in a casino window and being shocked, SHOCKED by the gambling occurring inside. AFAIK, the Belmont and the Triple Crown is and should be about the horse. I frankly don't give a damn about Zayat.

The owner of Affirmed did federal time, Seattle Slew's owners were a couple of creeps that fired their trainer when he called them out for not doing right by their horse, and the owner of Secretariat was having an affair with her trainer. None of this tarnished the legacy of their horses.

castaway01
05-27-2015, 02:59 AM
Those people aren't very thoughtful. The next trainer and owner to win the TC will be the ambassadors of racing for the next 20 years.

Yeah, Baffert would be a terrible guy to have as an ambassador, since he sucks with the media and has no personality...would be terrible to see that happen.... ;)

castaway01
05-27-2015, 03:01 AM
I agree owner hard to root for, trainer harder to root for yet, nobody (besides you) seems to mention that.

Yeah, glad no one has spammed the board with PETA quotes about Baffert except geniuses like Fager Fan and you...

Fager Fan
05-27-2015, 10:02 AM
Yeah, glad no one has spammed the board with PETA quotes about Baffert except geniuses like Fager Fan and you...

Baffert is one of the best handful of trainers with the press, on that I agree with you, but it isn't outrageous to care about and question 7 horses who dropped dead.

onefast99
05-27-2015, 02:54 PM
IMHO, this is a hatchet piece.

If every businessman that filed bankruptcy was barred from horse ownership, there would be a lot less owners.
...and trainers!

onefast99
05-27-2015, 03:00 PM
The owner of Affirmed did federal time, Seattle Slew's owners were a couple of creeps that fired their trainer when he called them out for not doing right by their horse, and the owner of Secretariat was having an affair with her trainer. None of this tarnished the legacy of their horses.
In August 2007, Gallion and Cunningham owners of Curlin, were in a Boone County, Kentucky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boone_County,_Kentucky) jail awaiting a federal trial on charges including conspiracy and fraud for allegedly stealing $90 million of a $200 million settlement they obtained for 418 people in a lawsuit against the makers of the diet drug fen-phen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen-phen). They were convicted in 2009 and sentenced to 25 and 20 years in prison, respectively.

Flysofree
05-27-2015, 03:06 PM
What would be funny is if NBC press interviews Zayat and asks him how much does he have bet on his horse today.... And follow that up with is it bet Offshore or where... :D

That will never happen of course..

onefast99
05-27-2015, 03:08 PM
What would be funny is if NBC press interviews Zayat and asks him how much does he have bet on his horse today.... And follow that up with is it bet Offshore or where... :D

That will never happen of course..
You mean make a fool of himself like the IEAH crew and trainer?

PaceAdvantage
05-28-2015, 03:57 PM
What would be funny is if NBC press interviews Zayat and asks him how much does he have bet on his horse today.... And follow that up with is it bet Offshore or where... :D

That will never happen of course..Why shouldn't he bet on his horse?

Lukas bets with both fists at times, apparently...it's been reported many times...

I don't see how it's a bad thing to have a horse owner who bets...most of them do anyway...

Flysofree
05-28-2015, 04:35 PM
Why shouldn't he bet on his horse?

Lukas bets with both fists at times, apparently...it's been reported many times...

I don't see how it's a bad thing to have a horse owner who bets...most of them do anyway...


As long as it's through US parimutuals, I absolutely agree!

cato
05-28-2015, 06:21 PM
This is funny....(a lot of) you guys are awfully strict and judgmental for a bunch of gamblers...shocked that any owner would gamble a lot of money or be associated with gamblers, con-artists, etc.

You must be living in the 50s (when it was all still going on but no one wrote about it or publicized it) or some similar fantasy world.

Of all the troubles we have on this planet they do not include the character and reputation of a race horse owner.

Cheers, Frank

cato
05-28-2015, 06:22 PM
By da way, I think American Pharoah is the real deal and will win the Belmont!

Relwob Owner
05-28-2015, 07:03 PM
This is funny....(a lot of) you guys are awfully strict and judgmental for a bunch of gamblers...shocked that any owner would gamble a lot of money or be associated with gamblers, con-artists, etc.

You must be living in the 50s (when it was all still going on but no one wrote about it or publicized it) or some similar fantasy world.

Of all the troubles we have on this planet they do not include the character and reputation of a race horse owner.

Cheers, Frank


For me, I couldn't care less if he gambles or not. My issue is that in general, he seems to(allegedly) have a lot of issues paying people money back and I really don't care for people like that.

SandyW
05-28-2015, 07:22 PM
For me, I couldn't care less if he gambles or not. My issue is that in general, he seems to(allegedly) have a lot of issues paying people money back and I really don't care for people like that.

Why should you care unless he owed you some money. Why is this anybodies business execpt the people involved. I just don't understand what this gentleman and owner does have to do with me picking a winner. :bang:

Relwob Owner
05-28-2015, 09:39 PM
Why should you care unless he owed you some money. Why is this anybodies business execpt the people involved. I just don't understand what this gentleman and owner does have to do with me picking a winner. :bang:

It doesn't have anything to do with you picking a winner, nor does it have to do with me picking a winner. Who said it did?

As far as why I care, I am like many other people on here who love horse racing, love expressing their opinions, and this guy is about as prominent as they get right now, with controversy swirling around him. Some people dont care about the connections of horses, but I am one who does and from what I have heard and read, dont care for him. I care about racing, how it is perceived and I like to see good people in general get rewarded and I dont get the sense he is a good person in some ways. I dont know him, but like all of us, just speculate.

You posted that I shouldn't care about him, so I ask you: If you dont care, why did you read this thread then????????

onefast99
05-29-2015, 02:12 PM
For me, I couldn't care less if he gambles or not. My issue is that in general, he seems to(allegedly) have a lot of issues paying people money back and I really don't care for people like that.
He did file for bankruptcy protection(chapter 11)he emerged from the BK and has paid everyone off. Where does he owe anyone any money?

Relwob Owner
05-29-2015, 05:20 PM
He did file for bankruptcy protection(chapter 11)he emerged from the BK and has paid everyone off. Where does he owe anyone any money?

Do you know of proof he paid everyone from the initial issue off? As far as who he owes money to now, the unresolved issue with the alleged offshore transactions is still outstanding and yet to be resolved as far as I know.

tucker6
05-29-2015, 05:29 PM
Do you know of proof he paid everyone from the initial issue off?
Seriously? We are now asking for proof that he paid everyone off that he owes so that he can be an owner in good standing with the racing public? Is this the bar we are now setting?

magwell
05-29-2015, 05:41 PM
Seriously? We are now asking for proof that he paid everyone off that he owes so that he can be an owner in good standing with the racing public? Is this the bar we are now setting?Sure seems that way with people rooting against a horse that has a chance to win the TC, pretty sad all the negativity of the game that comes right to the top from some people..........;)

Relwob Owner
05-29-2015, 05:43 PM
Seriously? We are now asking for proof that he paid everyone off that he owes so that he can be an owner in good standing with the racing public? Is this the bar we are now setting?

No, I am not doing that at all, as I made clear in my post #5 in this thread which is states how I feel about him. To refresh, here it is:

Agreed. Im pretty anti Zayat, but can't see from what I have read, that he shouldn't be allowed to be an owner. That being said, many things I have read make me wonder why someone would say they "deserve" this Triple Crown, which I believe has been posted on here. I would say that in a lot of senses, in addition to history not being on their side, Karma may not be as well.

I dont think there is anything that should keep him from being an owner. I was responding to a post saying that he had paid all of his debts off from his bankruptcy and asking if he had because I was genuinely curious.

SandyW
05-29-2015, 06:56 PM
No, I am not doing that at all, as I made clear in my post #5 in this thread which is states how I feel about him. To refresh, here it is:

Agreed. Im pretty anti Zayat, but can't see from what I have read, that he shouldn't be allowed to be an owner. That being said, many things I have read make me wonder why someone would say they "deserve" this Triple Crown, which I believe has been posted on here. I would say that in a lot of senses, in addition to history not being on their side, Karma may not be as well.

I dont think there is anything that should keep him from being an owner. I was responding to a post saying that he had paid all of his debts off from his bankruptcy and asking if he had because I was genuinely curious.

Who made you the judge and jury where Mr, Zayat is concerned??
Where the horse is concerned all he does is run and has no knowledge who owns him.

Relwob Owner
05-29-2015, 07:43 PM
Who made you the judge and jury where Mr, Zayat is concerned??
Where the horse is concerned all he does is run and has no knowledge who owns him.

I am not the judge or the jury, I have an opinion and last time I checked, this is a forum to discuss racing topics and offer opinions. Who made you the judge and jury of my posts???????

As far as the horse goes, saying that all he does is run and has no knowledge of who owns him is pretty obvious, isn't it?. All of my comments are directed towards my opinion of the owner (he is the topic of this thread), not the horse. AP is an awesome horse who has an excellent chance of winning the Triple Crown, which would be a pretty cool thing to see.

Fager Fan
05-29-2015, 07:55 PM
Sure seems that way with people rooting against a horse that has a chance to win the TC, pretty sad all the negativity of the game that comes right to the top from some people..........;)

What's with the smiley face? Do you think that somehow lessens the insult? You've already stated that you don't care if the devil himself owned the horse, that it's only about the horse for you. Others do care who owns (or trains) the horse because they are the ones being rewarded, not the horse.

Fager Fan
05-29-2015, 07:58 PM
Who made you the judge and jury where Mr, Zayat is concerned??
Where the horse is concerned all he does is run and has no knowledge who owns him.

Right, and the horse would have no knowledge of winning or not winning the TC either. He couldn't care less.

Fager Fan
05-29-2015, 08:01 PM
Do you know of proof he paid everyone from the initial issue off? As far as who he owes money to now, the unresolved issue with the alleged offshore transactions is still outstanding and yet to be resolved as far as I know.

I've heard from some reliable sources that he did pay off the bank and all the listed creditors that he owed when he filed Chapter 11.

Relwob Owner
05-29-2015, 08:12 PM
I've heard from some reliable sources that he did pay off the bank and all the listed creditors that he owed when he filed Chapter 11.

Thanks for the info. Nice to get a simple answer to my question, rather than getting questioned for having an opinion on the matter at hand. :ThmbUp:

magwell
05-29-2015, 10:04 PM
What's with the smiley face? Do you think that somehow lessens the insult? You've already stated that you don't care if the devil himself owned the horse, that it's only about the horse for you. Others do care who owns (or trains) the horse because they are the ones being rewarded, not the horse.If you feel insulted that's on you... btw :rolleyes:

onefast99
06-01-2015, 11:56 AM
Thanks for the info. Nice to get a simple answer to my question, rather than getting questioned for having an opinion on the matter at hand. :ThmbUp: Based on what I read Fifth Third Bank went after Zayat pretty hard $34m. His only option legally was to file for bankruptcy protection. Since it was a Chapter 11 filing it was corporate and a reorganization was approved. He will pay these loans off in a 6 year period. He stated the reorganization was pretty much on target with the filing. He did the right thing. As far as the gambling debts go if he owes someone money for making the bet he should pay them, if the guy can't prove that he actually placed the bets and just pocketed the money he should fight it.

Stillriledup
06-02-2015, 07:48 PM
Who made you the judge and jury where Mr, Zayat is concerned??
Where the horse is concerned all he does is run and has no knowledge who owns him.

People have the right to like or dislike whoever they want to, even if this guy is technically guilty of nothing, youre allowed to hate his guts w no reason needed if you want to.

Stillriledup
06-02-2015, 08:02 PM
Why shouldn't he bet on his horse?

Lukas bets with both fists at times, apparently...it's been reported many times...

I don't see how it's a bad thing to have a horse owner who bets...most of them do anyway...

The point that fsf was trying to make was that if a reporter asks that question, he or she is essentially bringing up a touchy subject, the reporter could care less if he bet or not. But, as a reporter, isnt that a question that ought to be asked?

PaceAdvantage
06-03-2015, 01:47 PM
The point that fsf was trying to make was that if a reporter asks that question, he or she is essentially bringing up a touchy subject, the reporter could care less if he bet or not. But, as a reporter, isnt that a question that ought to be asked?Everyone I know wants that question asked... :rolleyes: :lol:

Shelby
06-04-2015, 11:52 AM
Ahmed Zayat ‏@jazz3162 18m18 minutes ago
There is a God. The God of justice & Truth. We have won the case. The judge threw the Runinsky case out. @JustinZayat @ZayatStables 🙏🙏

------

From Twitter.

Fager Fan
06-04-2015, 12:08 PM
Ahmed Zayat ‏@jazz3162 18m18 minutes ago
There is a God. The God of justice & Truth. We have won the case. The judge threw the Runinsky case out. @JustinZayat @ZayatStables 🙏🙏

------

From Twitter.

Courts won't get involved with civil cases involving illegal activity so this was easy to predict (and doesn't have anything to do with truth or justice).

Flysofree
06-04-2015, 12:12 PM
Courts won't get involved with civil cases involving illegal activity so this was easy to predict (and doesn't have anything to do with truth or justice).

Correct!

Fingal
06-04-2015, 01:09 PM
Ahmed Zayat ‏@jazz3162 18m18 minutes ago
There is a God. The God of justice & Truth. We have won the case. The judge threw the Runinsky case out. @JustinZayat @ZayatStables 🙏🙏

------

From Twitter.

http://live.drf.com/nuggets/16115

Defaultprofilepic
Matt Hegarty , 2015-06-04 - DRF Live
Posted : 57 mins ago
Lawsuit against Zayat on alleged gambling debt thrown out
A U.S. District Court judge has granted a motion by Ahmed Zayat to have a lawsuit alleging he reneged on a gambling debt thrown out, citing the expiration of the statute of limitations and the plaintiff's difficulty in proving his case, according to court records.

Judge William J. Martini issued the order granting Zayat's motion on Thursday, two days prior to the Belmont Stakes, in which Zayat's homebred American Pharaoh is expected to start as the favorite.

The suit was filed by Howard Rubinsky, who claimed that he set up a line of credit at an offshore bookmaker in Zayat's name and that Zayat subsequently ran up a $2 million debt. Rubinsky alleged that Zayat stopped making payments on the debt in 2008 after it was reduced to $1.65 million. Zayat vigorously denied the allegations in the suit.

More to come on DRF.com.

Figured it would be. Who waits 11 years to go after someone that "owes" them money ? For an alleged 1.6 million I'd be after that in a New York Minute.

The 2nd lawsuit for defamation of character should be going away soon too since it came about as a result of the 1st one

Flysofree
06-04-2015, 01:18 PM
We can each choose to believe who we wish to.... He stopped making payments in 2008.... He knew he'd get away with it. That's my opinion and you are welcome to have yours as well.

PaceAdvantage
06-04-2015, 01:42 PM
We can each choose to believe who we wish to.... He stopped making payments in 2008.... He knew he'd get away with it. That's my opinion and you are welcome to have yours as well.Who gives a flying bleep besides Zayat and whomever he may or may not owe money to?

You act as if the rest of racing ownership, trainers, vets, jocks, grooms, front-office folk are as pure as the driven snow and THIS is all we have to worry about...

Geez...

Flysofree
06-04-2015, 02:08 PM
Who gives a flying bleep besides Zayat and whomever he may or may not owe money to?

You act as if the rest of racing ownership, trainers, vets, jocks, grooms, front-office folk are as pure as the driven snow and THIS is all we have to worry about...

Geez...

I never mentioned the rest of the racing world.

Grits
06-04-2015, 08:12 PM
It seems that year after year, good or not so good, we can always rely on the NYTimes to deliver.....oh, maybe 48 hours out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/05/sports/american-pharoah-cant-erase-all-of-ahmed-zayats-missteps.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Stillriledup
06-04-2015, 09:49 PM
It seems that year after year, good or not so good, we can always rely on the NYTimes to deliver.....oh, maybe 48 hours out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/05/sports/american-pharoah-cant-erase-all-of-ahmed-zayats-missteps.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Amazing this Didnt get brushed under the rug, maybe he needs some advice from his trainer in that regard.

PICSIX
06-04-2015, 10:01 PM
He's on Secret Lives of the Super Rich on CNBC right now.

Sorry such late notice. Encore at 1:00am Eastern.

chadk66
06-05-2015, 08:10 AM
What an interesting dude Zayat is. My guess is he is Bipolar. Most Bipolar people have a serious underlying addiction. His is gambling. But burried underneath is a guy with a big heart. Interesting to say the least.

onefast99
06-05-2015, 08:52 AM
We can each choose to believe who we wish to.... He stopped making payments in 2008.... He knew he'd get away with it. That's my opinion and you are welcome to have yours as well.
He filed for reorganization and paid the debt per his chapter 11 reorganization plan. He didn't get away with anything he had the right to file as anyone else does. Fifth Third was paid. My guess is that Fifth Third came at him and his assets pretty hard. The judge ruled he can maintain some of those assets and not pledge them, one of those was Pioneer of the Nile. Now let this guy and his horse carve out a little piece of history it's a great story thus far!

Flysofree
06-05-2015, 11:36 AM
He filed for reorganization and paid the debt per his chapter 11 reorganization plan. He didn't get away with anything he had the right to file as anyone else does. Fifth Third was paid. My guess is that Fifth Third came at him and his assets pretty hard. The judge ruled he can maintain some of those assets and not pledge them, one of those was Pioneer of the Nile. Now let this guy and his horse carve out a little piece of history it's a great story thus far!

You think he listed his illegal gambling debts in any chapter 11 bankruptcy????
This is my final post under this topic. He says he doesn't owe any debts for gambling. It takes a lot of guts to go after someone in court for this.
If it wasn't for the fact that I like Victor Espinoza, the jockey so much I would hope AP finishes last in the Belmont.. But I only wish him a clean trip.
The end of topic for me...

Fager Fan
06-05-2015, 01:15 PM
He filed for reorganization and paid the debt per his chapter 11 reorganization plan. He didn't get away with anything he had the right to file as anyone else does. Fifth Third was paid. My guess is that Fifth Third came at him and his assets pretty hard. The judge ruled he can maintain some of those assets and not pledge them, one of those was Pioneer of the Nile. Now let this guy and his horse carve out a little piece of history it's a great story thus far!

Came at him pretty hard? If someone owed you $35 million, you'd come at them hard when they stop making their payments.

Did you note the people in the article who will no longer do business with Zayat due to his no pay or slow pay? And the other people who will only do business with Zayat if he pays up front?

The guy is spending millions on horses and gambling but doesn't pay his bills, and you think that's just fine and pull for his horse.

Relwob Owner
06-05-2015, 01:27 PM
He filed for reorganization and paid the debt per his chapter 11 reorganization plan. He didn't get away with anything he had the right to file as anyone else does. Fifth Third was paid. My guess is that Fifth Third came at him and his assets pretty hard. The judge ruled he can maintain some of those assets and not pledge them, one of those was Pioneer of the Nile. Now let this guy and his horse carve out a little piece of history it's a great story thus far!


Where is the great story? The horse is going for the Triple Crown and that would be great but outside of that, I don't see anything great about the story, unless you were just referring to AP winning the Derby and the Preakness. Anything outside of the horse isn't close to being "great" to me.

Saratoga_Mike
06-05-2015, 01:42 PM
He filed for reorganization and paid the debt per his chapter 11 reorganization plan. He didn't get away with anything he had the right to file as anyone else does. Fifth Third was paid. My guess is that Fifth Third came at him and his assets pretty hard. The judge ruled he can maintain some of those assets and not pledge them, one of those was Pioneer of the Nile. Now let this guy and his horse carve out a little piece of history it's a great story thus far!

From previous reporting, the loans were made to an LLC and not personally guaranteed by Mr. Zayat. Unless this is incorrect, the bank could not go after "his assets pretty hard." Were the reports from a few years back incorrect?

onefast99
06-05-2015, 02:21 PM
Came at him pretty hard? If someone owed you $35 million, you'd come at them hard when they stop making their payments.

Did you note the people in the article who will no longer do business with Zayat due to his no pay or slow pay? And the other people who will only do business with Zayat if he pays up front?

The guy is spending millions on horses and gambling but doesn't pay his bills, and you think that's just fine and pull for his horse.
Here is a little tip for you if AP wins the TC everyone and their brother will give him any credit line he desires. And yes I am pulling for him to win.

onefast99
06-05-2015, 02:35 PM
From previous reporting, the loans were made to an LLC and not personally guaranteed by Mr. Zayat. Unless this is incorrect, the bank could not go after "his assets pretty hard." Were the reports from a few years back incorrect?
In an effort to keep the bank from taking possession of and selling the horses, Zayat filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in New Jersey. He claimed that it was in the best interest of the stable, the creditors, and the bank if he were permitted to continue to operate Zayat Stables.

These are his assets.

Saratoga_Mike
06-05-2015, 03:28 PM
In an effort to keep the bank from taking possession of and selling the horses, Zayat filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in New Jersey. He claimed that it was in the best interest of the stable, the creditors, and the bank if he were permitted to continue to operate Zayat Stables.

These are his assets.


The case is Zayat Stables LLC 10-10202, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, District of New Jersey (Newark).

Therefore, I think you're incorrect. Granted, he's probably the managing member and 100% owner of the LLC (I don't know if sole-member LLCs are allowed under NJ law), but the LLC was on the hook, not Zayat.

Is there a separate case?

onefast99
06-05-2015, 04:16 PM
The case is Zayat Stables LLC 10-10202, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, District of New Jersey (Newark).

Therefore, I think you're incorrect. Granted, he's probably the managing member and 100% owner of the LLC (I don't know if sole-member LLCs are allowed under NJ law), but the LLC was on the hook, not Zayat.

Is there a separate case?
The bk 11 is a corporate bk as I said in my previous post as far as being on the hook Mr Zayat isn't on the hook for anything personally unless he signed for those loans personally and nothing in the filings suggest this. Pioneer of the Nile was a seperate entity(go to the filing)Fifth Third requested the stays be removed from both entities but in the interim Zayat filed for bk protection. The good thing is he paid everyone.

Saratoga_Mike
06-05-2015, 04:22 PM
The bk 11 is a corporate bk as I said in my previous post as far as being on the hook Mr Zayat isn't on the hook for anything personally unless he signed for those loans personally and nothing in the filings suggest this. Pioneer of the Nile was a seperate entity(go to the filing)Fifth Third requested the stays be removed from both entities but in the interim Zayat filed for bk protection. The good thing is he paid everyone.

I don't care enough to go to PACER and pull down the filing, as what you're saying now is consistent with my understanding of the case. I thought you were implying it was a personal bankruptcy previously.

I just remembered your SI connection and corresponding fondness for PoN.

chadk66
06-05-2015, 04:31 PM
The case is Zayat Stables LLC 10-10202, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, District of New Jersey (Newark).

Therefore, I think you're incorrect. Granted, he's probably the managing member and 100% owner of the LLC (I don't know if sole-member LLCs are allowed under NJ law), but the LLC was on the hook, not Zayat.

Is there a separate case?I believe any creditor granting credit to an LLC will require the general partner to sign. This would mean he signed. Therefore he is personally responsible second to the corporations assets. Just because the debt belongs to a corporation doesn't mean there isn't personal liability involved.

Donttellmeshowme
06-05-2015, 05:35 PM
The man took out loans to fund his racing stable and didnt pay back the loans and had to file bankruptcy. He filed bankruptcy and then paid back the loans.


My question is i thought this guy was a billionaire in his native Egypt? Didnt he sell a major business there? So why did he need loans to fund his racing stable.?

baconswitchfarm
06-05-2015, 05:52 PM
The man took out loans to fund his racing stable and didnt pay back the loans and had to file bankruptcy. He filed bankruptcy and then paid back the loans.


My question is i thought this guy was a billionaire in his native Egypt? Didnt he sell a major business there? So why did he need loans to fund his racing stable.?


:lol: The first rule of being rich is NEVER use your own money for business.

Stillriledup
06-05-2015, 05:59 PM
:lol: The first rule of being rich is NEVER use your own money for business.

It's only smart to use OPM if you are paying less (or the same) to borrow as you are having your money sit in some kind of interest bearing vehicle.

ronsmac
06-05-2015, 06:05 PM
My answer to the original question. No.

Saratoga_Mike
06-05-2015, 07:00 PM
I believe any creditor granting credit to an LLC will require the general partner to sign. This would mean he signed. Therefore he is personally responsible second to the corporations assets. Just because the debt belongs to a corporation doesn't mean there isn't personal liability involved.

1) Prior reports indicated Fifth Third did not require a personal guarantee from Mr. Zayat for loans made to the racing LLC.

2) If an LLC is small with a limited operating history a bank typically requires a personal guarantee. But many LLCs are large with long operating histories and no personal guarantee is required.

3) LLCs do not have general partners (that's a LP). They have a managing member.

chadk66
06-06-2015, 08:35 AM
1) Prior reports indicated Fifth Third did not require a personal guarantee from Mr. Zayat for loans made to the racing LLC.

2) If an LLC is small with a limited operating history a bank typically requires a personal guarantee. But many LLCs are large with long operating histories and no personal guarantee is required.

3) LLCs do not have general partners (that's a LP). They have a managing member.If that's true the bank board of directors should be ashamed. you don't give out thirty five million without personal guarantee. But I think a court would rule against Zayat anyway. When he signed for the loan, which he obviously did, he is on the hook. Somebody signed. And he was the general partner or whatever so I think he would be held liable personally for the note. Shareholders should be asking for the board of directors heads if that happened.

tucker6
06-06-2015, 10:03 AM
If that's true the bank board of directors should be ashamed. you don't give out thirty five million without personal guarantee. But I think a court would rule against Zayat anyway. When he signed for the loan, which he obviously did, he is on the hook. Somebody signed. And he was the general partner or whatever so I think he would be held liable personally for the note. Shareholders should be asking for the board of directors heads if that happened.
Since Zayat was a managing member, he is not personally responsible for the issues of the llc. Even if he owns 100%. Unless of course he was committing gross fraud.

Saratoga_Mike
06-06-2015, 11:25 AM
If that's true the bank board of directors should be ashamed. you don't give out thirty five million without personal guarantee. But I think a court would rule against Zayat anyway. When he signed for the loan, which he obviously did, he is on the hook. Somebody signed. And he was the general partner or whatever so I think he would be held liable personally for the note. Shareholders should be asking for the board of directors heads if that happened.

Again, the original reports cited no personal guarantee (could have been incorrect; I don't know). I'm fairly confident the board wasn't involved in making the loan. I suspect a fairly senior risk officer or executive would have signed off on the loan arrangement.

As Tucker explained, if there was no personal guarantee and the loan was made to the LLC, he would not owe a dime. Except in the case of fraud or misrepresentation, you can't pierce the corporate veil of an LLC. In that respect, an LLC is no different than a c-corp, except there's a longer history of case law for c-corps.

If there was no personal guarantee, I respect Mr. Zayat for paying off the loan. However, I don't understand why he didn't just cut a check to pay off the loan and avoid the whole mess. Maybe he had a good reason.

onefast99
06-08-2015, 11:12 AM
I don't care enough to go to PACER and pull down the filing, as what you're saying now is consistent with my understanding of the case. I thought you were implying it was a personal bankruptcy previously.

I just remembered your SI connection and corresponding fondness for PoN.
He chose the bk 11 route based on the fact a trustee isn't appointed in a bk 11 but is always appointed in a bk 13. The only way a trustee would be appointed in a bk 11 is if there is gross mismanagement. Based on the filings , especially the motions Fifth Third didn't request a court appointed trustee for Zayat.
On another note we didn't get POTN(we tried every way we could) we ended up with Bodemeister and had a beautiful baby colt on April 11th.

onefast99
06-08-2015, 11:16 AM
If that's true the bank board of directors should be ashamed. you don't give out thirty five million without personal guarantee. But I think a court would rule against Zayat anyway. When he signed for the loan, which he obviously did, he is on the hook. Somebody signed. And he was the general partner or whatever so I think he would be held liable personally for the note. Shareholders should be asking for the board of directors heads if that happened.
Don't forget the amount of $34m plus includes the default escalation rate and legal fees. I believe I read somewhere that the original lan was in the $26m range. I still have to agree how did this type of loan get past the BOD's especially today with all of the new compliance in lending.

Stillriledup
06-08-2015, 11:26 AM
Zayat yelling "this is for you"

Ill be waiting by my mailbox for my share of the earnings.

chadk66
06-09-2015, 09:50 AM
yea I don't buy this load stuff with the new compliance rules. My dad ran a bank for twenty years. Pre 9/11 mind you. One of my good friends runs a bank now. Huge difference now from then. Zayat's LLC can have him listed as every single officer of the corporation. A one man corporation. My understanding is the only real difference between an LLC and a C corp is that an LLC has a limited amount of shareholders where a c corp is unrestricted. So the "limited" in LLC just means a limited amount of shareholders. I had a corporation for years. I was told by my attorney I was on the hook for anything the corporation did financial wise whether I signed a personal guarantee or not. He said some companies wouldn't waste their time going after me if I don't sign a personal guarantee because of the cost involved to them. They would have significant cost to collect and it may not be worth it to them. 34 million is worth it I'd have to believe.

On another note regarding Chapter 11 vs Chapter 13. Isn't Chapter 13 reserved for farming operations? I'm not sure how Zayat's LLC was structured but I'd guess horses weren't the only thing he was doing. maybe it was. If so then he may qualify if he was breeding. Just owning race horses probably wouldn't qualify him for a 13. But I'm no damn attorney

onefast99
06-09-2015, 05:24 PM
yea I don't buy this load stuff with the new compliance rules. My dad ran a bank for twenty years. Pre 9/11 mind you. One of my good friends runs a bank now. Huge difference now from then. Zayat's LLC can have him listed as every single officer of the corporation. A one man corporation. My understanding is the only real difference between an LLC and a C corp is that an LLC has a limited amount of shareholders where a c corp is unrestricted. So the "limited" in LLC just means a limited amount of shareholders. I had a corporation for years. I was told by my attorney I was on the hook for anything the corporation did financial wise whether I signed a personal guarantee or not. He said some companies wouldn't waste their time going after me if I don't sign a personal guarantee because of the cost involved to them. They would have significant cost to collect and it may not be worth it to them. 34 million is worth it I'd have to believe.

On another note regarding Chapter 11 vs Chapter 13. Isn't Chapter 13 reserved for farming operations? I'm not sure how Zayat's LLC was structured but I'd guess horses weren't the only thing he was doing. maybe it was. If so then he may qualify if he was breeding. Just owning race horses probably wouldn't qualify him for a 13. But I'm no damn attorney
Anyone as an individual or an llc can file for either a bk 13 or a bk 11. As I noted earlier the major difference is in a bk 13 the judge appoints a trustee to administer the plan. In an 11 unless there is gross mismanagement there is no trustee to administer the reorganization plan. In 2013 the bk courts made it harder on individuals to file a chapter 7 and discharge all debts. Bk courts now want the debtor to pay back at least some of the monies owed to the creditors. Also the number Fifth Third came at Zayat with was more in the tune of $26m.
Your attorney is also incorrect if he did indeed say you were on the hook for anything "personally" as an LLC means it is a limited liability company. You are not responsible for anything other than what the business or LLC owns. The LLC has one downfall based on its status, it is difficult to lend money to an LLC due to its risk based nature legally.

Saratoga_Mike
06-09-2015, 09:42 PM
I had a corporation for years. I was told by my attorney I was on the hook for anything the corporation did financial wise whether I signed a personal guarantee or not. He said some companies wouldn't waste their time going after me if I don't sign a personal guarantee because of the cost involved to them. They would have significant cost to collect and it may not be worth it to them. 34 million is worth it I'd have to believe.



Did your attorney actually pass the bar in a state in this country? The standard to pierce the corporate veil (and hold you personally liable) is very high (e.g., fraudulent activity). His assertion was incorrect. If his assertion was correct, c-corps and LLCs would not exist, especially c-corps given the double-taxation issue.

chadk66
06-09-2015, 11:40 PM
Did your attorney actually pass the bar in a state in this country? The standard to pierce the corporate veil (and hold you personally liable) is very high (e.g., fraudulent activity). His assertion was incorrect. If his assertion was correct, c-corps and LLCs would not exist, especially c-corps given the double-taxation issue.I'm referring to debt obligations of corporations. I'm not saying he is correct. But it would be a little strange for anyone or any company to loan money to a corporation that wasn't willing to back it up with a personal guarantee. So I would have to believe there is a guarantee there regardless. But I don't know I'm just a hick from ND.:D

onefast99
06-10-2015, 01:02 PM
Did your attorney actually pass the bar in a state in this country? The standard to pierce the corporate veil (and hold you personally liable) is very high (e.g., fraudulent activity). His assertion was incorrect. If his assertion was correct, c-corps and LLCs would not exist, especially c-corps given the double-taxation issue.
I was wondering the same thing! It looks as if Mr Zayat came out of the bk very well and did settle with Fifth Third.I don't know about any other creditors as he had to list them all. But I am sure everyone and their brother will do business with him now.