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BlinkersOn
05-10-2015, 10:16 PM
Flores was banned in Singapore for a year, but he's got the OK to ride at Santa Anita. Stevens and Smith both went to bat for him, saying there was nothing wrong with that ride that he was banned for. Personally, I didn't see it, so I'm clueless. I do know when I heard he was banned in Singapore, I pretty much knew he could come back to the states and ride. He will start getting mounts fairly quickly, says his new agent.

This is just info. I have no personal opinion on it at all.

Some_One
05-10-2015, 10:21 PM
The CHRB reasoning was them and a few jocks saw the ride in question, didn't agree with the STC call and thus ignored the suspension. First time I've ever seen something like this.

Stillriledup
05-10-2015, 10:23 PM
Yes, because you want someone like Smith, who picks and chooses how hard he rides to the wire, going to bat for you. Surprised they didn't summon Kent to show up to give his 2 cents.

I didnt see the ride in Singapore and there's no doubt that the suspension they levied was because Flores was from America and they wanted to stick it to the American Jock, Calif is a good place to ride if you want to pick and choose when you ride hard for board spots, no harm no foul, well, unless you're Omar Berrio, than you get in trouble, these other guys are teflon and can do what they want.

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2015, 10:44 AM
I was surprised it took this long for a post on this subject to appear here. I thought one or two of you would have created a thread immediately and jumped all over this.

I would have, but I just didn't have the time over the weekend when I first saw this article on bloodhorse.

I was kind of astounded and disappointed that California undermined another jurisdiction, albeit a foreign one.

Singapore handed down a one year suspension for the following:

After hearing testimony from both Flores and the trainer of Kiss Me, Singapore Turf Club stewards determined the jockey "failed to take all reasonable and permissible measures to ensure that (his mount) was given the full opportunity of obtaining the best possible placing." The minimum penalty for violating that rule is a year suspension.Now, would they have handed down the same sentence for one of their native-born jockeys? Was this some sort of anti-American thing? Who knows...what is known is that the California review didn't necessarily disagree with STC's findings...they disagreed with the severity of the sentence handed down. Maybe Dick Dutrow ought to start making some phone calls and gathering a few star character witnesses who know how to embellish... :lol:

The article goes on:

Although the CHRB documents, stemming from an April 23 hearing with the Santa Anita stewards, stated the "Singapore Turf Club, under the auspices of the Malayan Racing Association, is a competent jurisdiction and therefore the disqualification ruling is prima facie evidence that (Flores) is unfit to hold a license in this jurisdiction" the stewards overturned the suspension and allowed Flores to race in California.

The board called on Hall of Fame jockeys Mike Smith and Gary Stevens as "riding expert witnesses" and both testified "to the fact that Mr. Flores had not only given his best efforts in the race in question, but gave the horse a superlative ride."

Although the CHRB documents state stewards did not agree that the ride was "superlative," they deemed the penalty of a year suspension "quite harsh" and ruled Flores is permitted to hold a jockey license in California.

Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91868/jockey-david-flores-cleared-to-race-in-ca#ixzz3ZqB1zcfSIt leaves a bad taste in my mouth when one racing jurisdiction undermines another. Flores should have known the rules and regulations of Singapore before he agreed to start riding there. And, upon breaking those rules, he should live with the consequences of such.

In fact, I dare say that if US racing started imposing stricter punishments like their foreign counterparts, racing here may indeed see a brighter future, with far less talk of how corrupt the sport has become in the states.

The men and women connected to these horses have billions of dollars riding on them every year. They SHOULD face the harshest of penalties if the integrity of their actions come into question by the powers that be.

horses4courses
05-11-2015, 11:02 AM
If I recall, Flores was getting next to no business before he left the US.
He is close to done as a rider, anyway.
It's a shame, really - I always felt I got a decent ride from him when betting.
He's sort of a lesser version of P Val - good gate rider, too.

While I think it would be beneficial to the sport if foreign bodies cooperated
with each other when enforcing penalties,
the US has a hard enough time getting on the same page from state to state.

Digressing a little more, whenever I think of foreign bans, trainer Patrick Biancone comes to mind.
He left France in the 80s, or 90s, under a cloud and headed for Hong Kong.
I don't think he was banned in France, but he left for a reason.
Hong Kong kicked him out for banned substances.

Where did he end up? Yep, you're right.
Mr. Cobra Venom is still plying his trade here.
That's a disgrace, in itself.

BlinkersOn
05-11-2015, 11:18 AM
I just googled "David Flores banned in Singapore for his ride on Kiss Me", and at the bottom of the story there is a video, if anyone wants to see it. You can form your own opinions.

According to the article accompanying the video, he had not been riding good at all over there. I can't say I honestly see him riding well in the jockey colony at Santa Anita, which is pretty strong. I'm surprised that they overturn the verdict by Singapore, and especially at a large track like Santa Anita. He doesn't seem to be the type of quality rider you would expect to see there. It must help to have friends in high places.

ReplayRandall
05-11-2015, 12:11 PM
I just googled "David Flores banned in Singapore for his ride on Kiss Me", and at the bottom of the story there is a video, if anyone wants to see it. You can form your own opinions.

According to the article accompanying the video, he had not been riding good at all over there. I can't say I honestly see him riding well in the jockey colony at Santa Anita, which is pretty strong. I'm surprised that they overturn the verdict by Singapore, and especially at a large track like Santa Anita. He doesn't seem to be the type of quality rider you would expect to see there. It must help to have friends in high places.
Didn't see anything blatant with Flores' ride.....6 unevenly timed, soft whip strikes might be the culprit?:
Race 1- Feb. 22nd- #7 Kiss Me
http://www.turfclub.com.sg/MediaCenter/VideoGallery/Pages/RaceVideos.aspx?url=http://videos.turfclub.com.sg/20150222SR01.mp4&MeetingDate=2015-02-22T00:00:00Z&Year=2015&RaceNumber=1&title=20150222SR01&RaceType=RaceVideos&index=0&Previewurl=http://www.turfclub.com.sg//MediaCenter/VideoGallery/Race Videos/2015/20150222SR01.jpg&AutoPlay=false

outofthebox
05-11-2015, 12:48 PM
Didn't see anything wrong with the ride. He did take a nice hold of Kiss Me after the break, saved ground and was urging his horse home under intermitting right hand sticks. Don't think Kent Desormeaux would last long over there.

Robert Fischer
05-11-2015, 01:00 PM
Race 1- Feb. 22nd- #7 Kiss Me
http://www.turfclub.com.sg/MediaCenter/VideoGallery/Pages/RaceVideos.aspx?url=http://videos.turfclub.com.sg/20150222SR01.mp4&MeetingDate=2015-02-22T00:00:00Z&Year=2015&RaceNumber=1&title=20150222SR01&RaceType=RaceVideos&index=0&Previewurl=http://www.turfclub.com.sg//MediaCenter/VideoGallery/Race Videos/2015/20150222SR01.jpg&AutoPlay=false
Ride looked terrible to me.

He'd have to say he was either 'terrified' of riding in traffic (doesn't fly for a pro jockey)

or "he felt his horse buckle under him" (tough to dispute, but when it becomes a pattern it must result in a penalty)


Awful ride from my perspective. He had opportunity to urge his horse and he either froze or chose not to.

Poindexter
05-11-2015, 02:44 PM
Wow, does anybody think that was a legitimate suspension and why? I know the track announcer was surprised he was taken back(is that the reason for the suspension?). Other than that I see absolutely nothing. Does anybody know whether the horse came back to race since then and how he did? If that race is a model for a 1 year suspension, is there a jockey in this country that would not be suspended? Robert, since you are convinced it was a terrible ride, what tactics would have gotten this horse better than a 4th place finish. This horse was not exactly full of run at the wire as was the 3rd place finisher. That is a ridiculously harsh ruling imo.

PA, the stewards cannot should not deny him permission to ride, simply because there is not a chance in a million that they would have suspended him for that ride.

Stillriledup
05-11-2015, 02:47 PM
"America" is VERY light on Jocks who don't perservere or ride mounts out for minor board spots, i don't know if its just California, but for the most part, a jock can do anything he wants out there and any excuse he or she gives, will be accepted. If this exact scenario happened in Calif and not Singapore, Flores would have told the CHRB that the horse "Felt funny" or some other kind of excuse and they would haven't thought twice about buying what he was selling.

Robert Fischer
05-11-2015, 03:04 PM
Robert, since you are convinced it was a terrible ride, what tactics would have gotten this horse better than a 4th place finish.

about 50 or 51 seconds on the video , it is just about time to 'go!'. Entering the stretch run now.

Instead of urging he does a couple half hearted waves of the whip.
Then some half-hearted urging.
Then the horse moves up under it's own power.
Then he stops even the half-hearted urging and is sitting back on the horse commencing the the half-hearted wave of the whip. This brings you to 59seconds on the video.
He gives a couple more whips while 'seated' and the horse moves forward bit, and then he appears to put both hands up on the reigns again bring us to 1:03 on the video.
There he inexplicably waits for 3 or 4 seconds in spite of being in the late stretch run (250meters to go!).
More of the seated waving of the whip, and hits the finish line.
Galloping out well.

Robert Fischer
05-11-2015, 03:07 PM
1) Maybe I'm seeing his trip all wrong.
2) Maybe he was sick and heroically giving his all when he should have been hospitalized.
3) Maybe the horse "Felt funny" underneath him
4) Maybe he was just going through the motions
5) Maybe he had financial incentive or trainer instruction
6) Maybe I only feel like thinking of five scenarios

PaceAdvantage
05-11-2015, 03:22 PM
PA, the stewards cannot should not deny him permission to ride, simply because there is not a chance in a million that they would have suspended him for that ride.I have a problem with the CHRB stating this: "Singapore Turf Club, under the auspices of the Malayan Racing Association, is a competent jurisdiction and therefore the disqualification ruling is prima facie evidence that (Flores) is unfit to hold a license in this jurisdiction"...then overturning the suspension. It's nothing but hypocrisy if you ask me...

Stillriledup
05-11-2015, 03:28 PM
I have a problem with the CHRB stating this: ...then overturning the suspension. It's nothing but hypocrisy if you ask me...

I agree. I think that its one thing to shorten the suspension, but to go from 365 days to 0 days seems a bit much. Its like they didn't care what they saw on tape and let the jock explain away what he was doing and bought it, like they always do.

I don't know if the CHRB has ever given a jock a minute suspension for lack of effort or not riding for a minor board spot. If i had to guess, i would say its happened before, but it rarely happens.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61809&highlight=antongeorgi

cj
05-11-2015, 03:32 PM
I have a problem with the CHRB stating this: ...then overturning the suspension. It's nothing but hypocrisy if you ask me...

CHRB did not overturn the suspension, the stewards did it.

FrankieFigs
05-11-2015, 03:41 PM
Ride looked terrible to me.

He'd have to say he was either 'terrified' of riding in traffic (doesn't fly for a pro jockey)

or "he felt his horse buckle under him" (tough to dispute, but when it becomes a pattern it must result in a penalty)


Awful ride from my perspective. He had opportunity to urge his horse and he either froze or chose not to.

I saw the same thing you did. Little to no urging whatsoever and it didn't look like the horse was laboring at all.

cj
05-11-2015, 03:56 PM
That was a no effort ride, but we see so many of them here we are probably immune to it by now.

Poindexter
05-11-2015, 03:58 PM
Now I am not disputing Robert or Frankie Figs. I have zero expertise in this subject. The ride looked fine to me, they felt it wasn't and it appears that the officials in Singapore agree with them. I do make note of the comments in the article by blood horse

blood horse article (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91868/jockey-david-flores-cleared-to-race-in-ca)

in which the following statement was made

The board called on Hall of Fame jockeys Mike Smith and Gary Stevens as "riding expert witnesses" and both testified "to the fact that Mr. Flores had not only given his best efforts in the race in question, but gave the horse a superlative ride."

Although the CHRB documents state stewards did not agree that the ride was "superlative," they deemed the penalty of a year suspension "quite harsh" and ruled Flores is permitted to hold a jockey license in California.





the testimony by Stevens and Mike Smith seem a bit over the top for a ride that supposedly was a no try. They could have said something a little more subtle like....I see nothing in the ride that cost this horse better position.

Stillriledup
05-11-2015, 04:09 PM
That was a no effort ride, but we see so many of them here we are probably immune to it by now.

they don't respect the horse player at all. This is a horsemen's game in California, its a jocks game and a trainers game, the bettors don't count, the CHRB isn't looking out for the player, they're there to make sure the jocks and trainers make their livings off the backs of the game. Giving Flores no suspension essentially says that jocks could do whatever they want on the track and they'll never be punished for it as long as they say "my dog ate my homework" its all good in their eyes no matter what the video looks like.

Robert Fischer
05-11-2015, 04:15 PM
Now I am not disputing Robert or Frankie Figs. I have zero expertise in this subject. The ride looked fine to me, they felt it wasn't and it appears that the officials in Singapore agree with them. I do make note of the comments in the article by blood horse

blood horse article (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91868/jockey-david-flores-cleared-to-race-in-ca)

in which the following statement was made

The board called on Hall of Fame jockeys Mike Smith and Gary Stevens as "riding expert witnesses" and both testified "to the fact that Mr. Flores had not only given his best efforts in the race in question, but gave the horse a superlative ride."

Although the CHRB documents state stewards did not agree that the ride was "superlative," they deemed the penalty of a year suspension "quite harsh" and ruled Flores is permitted to hold a jockey license in California.





the testimony by Stevens and Mike Smith seem a bit over the top for a ride that supposedly was a no try. They could have said something a little more subtle like....I see nothing in the ride that cost this horse better position.

A debate about actual finish 'placing' is much less clear cut IMO, because you have the horse photoing out 2 or 3 also rans in the shadow of the wire, and then there enters a lot of guesswork as to how much the alleged non-effort cost the horse.

(assuming this was in fact a non-effort) It would be hypocritical of me to criticize Stevens and Smith for saying what they felt would help their friend, as many of us would do the same, save for the most egregious cases.

Yes, their testimony does seem a bit over the top from my perspective. We also have a variety of opinions on the ride among our members, so it isn't completely impossible that these jockeys were being 100% honest in their testimony, regardless of my personal opinion.

cj
05-11-2015, 04:16 PM
Now I am not disputing Robert or Frankie Figs. I have zero expertise in this subject. The ride looked fine to me, they felt it wasn't and it appears that the officials in Singapore agree with them. I do make note of the comments in the article by blood horse

blood horse article (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91868/jockey-david-flores-cleared-to-race-in-ca)

in which the following statement was made

The board called on Hall of Fame jockeys Mike Smith and Gary Stevens as "riding expert witnesses" and both testified "to the fact that Mr. Flores had not only given his best efforts in the race in question, but gave the horse a superlative ride."

Although the CHRB documents state stewards did not agree that the ride was "superlative," they deemed the penalty of a year suspension "quite harsh" and ruled Flores is permitted to hold a jockey license in California.





the testimony by Stevens and Mike Smith seem a bit over the top for a ride that supposedly was a no try. They could have said something a little more subtle like....I see nothing in the ride that cost this horse better position.

Stevens and Smith are just looking out for a guy they have known for decades. Most people would do the same thing. They also probably won't mind him one bit as competition, he isn't very good.

outofthebox
05-11-2015, 04:22 PM
Stevens and Smith are just looking out for a guy they have known for decades. Most people would do the same thing. They also probably won't mind him one bit as competition, he isn't very good.This may be true. Without watching other races where Flores has competed, maybe this is what is left of him. He doesn't resemble the rider i used to watch daily 10-15 years ago.

johnhannibalsmith
05-11-2015, 04:22 PM
... saying what they felt would help their friend, as many of us would do the same ...

Sure, but probably not in a formal proceeding, governed by some hint of law, relying in part on testimony from witnesses that are assumed to be there to either be expert witnesses or character witnesses. If they want to tell the stews what a hell of a guy he is, fine. But if you're going up there as an expert to describe the ride to three people tasked primarily with scrutinizing rides and the running of races all afternoon - then you aren't really there to go to bat for your pal.

Frankly, I have zero clue why either rider was asked anything pursuant to the nature of the ride and use that to shape the verdict. If the stewards can't figure it out without enlisting some cover, then maybe we ought to stick the jocks upstairs when they don't have mounts and spend that money on a study about something or other.

(I didn't think it warranted anything close to a year, but as CJ said, we're used to seeing riders coast around the track.)

v j stauffer
05-12-2015, 03:32 AM
I think David Flores was a GREAT rider for many years. Not quite HOF caliber, but close.

Among his talents are a tremendous feel as a true horseman. A trait that endeared him to many trainers.

As with many jockeys, advancing age coupled with up and coming younger riders made business in So. Cal very difficult for him.

I've watched the replay of the race in Singapore for which he was suspended.

I can understand why the stewards felt there was an infraction based on their rules and what they are used to seeing from the jockeys in that colony.

IMO if they had seem David ride throughout his career I think they might have understood his ride that day was very similar to thousands of others he has given. IMO there is NO CHANCE he was guilty of not trying for a maximum placing. In fact I think his ride gave the horse more of a chance at a check than a less experienced rider would have.

However, David is not completely blameless in this matter as well. He chose to ride there and by doing so agreed to abide by that region's racing rules. This wasn't well thought through by David. A rider that has won over 3500 races isn't likely and probably can't completely change what has served him well for decades.

As for the admonitions of Mike Smith and Gary Stevens. I'm sure the stewards appreciated their sentiments. But I also highly doubt their testimony carried the day.

I believe the stewards drew upon what they knew of David from the many years he plied his trade on the So. Cal circuit.

I further believe even if they thought the ride was questionable. Which I did not. I can't speak for them. I expect they strongly felt banishment for a year was highly excessive.

IMO the stewards at Santa Anita got it 100% correct.

Some_One
05-12-2015, 03:53 AM
Ride looked terrible to me.

He'd have to say he was either 'terrified' of riding in traffic (doesn't fly for a pro jockey)

or "he felt his horse buckle under him" (tough to dispute, but when it becomes a pattern it must result in a penalty)


Awful ride from my perspective. He had opportunity to urge his horse and he either froze or chose not to.

Pretty much my feelings on the ride, also note the announcer said something about him not leading and being taken back early like it was unexpected

Dahoss2002
05-12-2015, 04:06 AM
I think David Flores was a GREAT rider for many years. Not quite HOF caliber, but close.


IMO the stewards at Santa Anita got it 100% correct.
Agree..I know for sure after a 10 horse race, if you listen real close, you will hear how every jockey cept the winner held their horse back. Hard for me to see alot of times.

v j stauffer
05-12-2015, 04:11 AM
Pretty much my feelings on the ride, also note the announcer said something about him not leading and being taken back early like it was unexpected

The announcer? Are you joking?? We all know those guys are screaming blowhards that have no idea what they're looking at.

Stillriledup
05-12-2015, 05:59 AM
The announcer? Are you joking?? We all know those guys are screaming blowhards that have no idea what they're looking at.

iEg-U3RGAlU

And Conan O'Brien too. ;)

PaceAdvantage
05-13-2015, 12:31 PM
CHRB did not overturn the suspension, the stewards did it.This is true...my bad.

Stillriledup
05-13-2015, 03:14 PM
CHRB did not overturn the suspension, the stewards did it.


Found this on the CHRB website.

Seems a big vague as to who "we" is:


FLORES RULING – LATS #100
After the formal hearing (case number 15SA0128) conducted 10 days ago, WE issued the following ruling regarding the reciprocation of Singapore’s disqualification ruling (a full statement of decision accompanied this ruling):
Following a formal fitness for license hearing, pursuant to California Horse Racing Board rule #1484 (Evidence of Unfitness for License) jockey DAVID FLORES is permitted to hold a license in the category of jockey.

johnhannibalsmith
05-13-2015, 04:06 PM
Found this on the CHRB website.

Seems a big vague as to who "we" is:

...

More than likely the people that issue rulings.

johnhannibalsmith
05-13-2015, 04:12 PM
Before you get a chance to come up with some wordplay and drag this out...

Hosshead
05-14-2015, 09:07 AM
As CJ said, Stevens and Smith have known Flores for MANY years, and were asked for their "Expert" opinions knowing full well what they would say.
Then using their "opinion" as an excuse to reinstate Flores, which is what they (the board of stewards) wanted to do in the first place.
It's like asking a cop if another cop did something wrong.

The most often used method of giving a non-trying ride, is to not try or take back early, then put on a little show in the stretch (in front of the crowd) knowing that your not going to get up for the win (or placing).
In this case Flores didn't try early then didn't care late.
Just another normal ride for him.

"IMO if they had seem David ride throughout his career I think they might have understood his ride that day was very similar to thousands of others he has given. "

This is true. And why he has never been even close to "HOF Caliber". :lol:
And why he would never have survived there, or anyplace where the bettors getting their moneys worth, ........... is the Rule.
Obviously the U.S. isn't one of those places !

cj
05-14-2015, 09:22 AM
Before you get a chance to come up with some wordplay and drag this out...

Thanks, I thought it was pretty clear the first time but apparently not for SRU.

Stillriledup
10-20-2015, 04:33 AM
DRF going 'old school' in the 5th race at SA on June 25th riding Late n Left.

Swinging the legs like the jocks of the 1950s used to do, maybe he was honoring Eddie Arcaro? I haven't seen the 'leg swing' in the modern era. Fascinating.

cj
10-20-2015, 09:53 AM
DRF going 'old school' in the 5th race at SA on June 25th riding Late n Left.

Swinging the legs like the jocks of the 1950s used to do, maybe he was honoring Eddie Arcaro? I haven't seen the 'leg swing' in the modern era. Fascinating.


June? It's October.

chenoa
10-20-2015, 09:56 AM
June? It's October.


Spooktacular!!! :lol: :lol:

Stillriledup
10-20-2015, 01:10 PM
June? It's October.

Was handicapping Thursdays Pick 6 and watched a tape of his horse who is running and happened to notice the 'Arcaro tribute' and wanted to share!

Better late than never, no? ;)

cj
10-20-2015, 03:08 PM
Better late than never, no? ;)

No.