PDA

View Full Version : $135,000 fine for not baking cake


Clocker
04-25-2015, 12:48 PM
An Oregon judge has ordered bakers to pay $135,000 in "damages" for refusing to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. The bakers, a married couple, were forced to close the bakery and have no business assets. The fine could result in personal bankruptcy.

Claimed damages include “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “excessive sleep,” “felt mentally raped, dirty and shameful,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “pale and sick at home after work,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.”

No expert or medical testimony was presented to substantiate the "damages". Somehow, the judge determined that the "damages" to one woman was $60K, and $75K to the other.

This is going to start a rush of gay couples looking for religious bakers to offend them. :rolleyes:

http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/24/state-says-bakers-should-pay-135000-for-refusing-to-bake-cake-for-same-sex-wedding/

LottaKash
04-25-2015, 12:52 PM
This country is getting "sicker" with each passing day .... :eek:

TJDave
04-25-2015, 01:13 PM
This is going to start a rush of gay couples looking for religious bakers to offend them. :rolleyes:


Or, maybe, bakeries will learn that business is business and just bake cakes.

boxcar
04-25-2015, 01:57 PM
Or, maybe, bakeries will learn that business is business and just bake cakes.

In other words, just be a Christian when inside a church building -- and then once outside, park keep your faith parked in the pew.

If you were a believer of any kind (over, above and beyond an "observant" kind -- whatever that even means) I have little doubt that the depth your faith would rival only that of a mud puddle.

Clocker
04-25-2015, 02:08 PM
Or, maybe, bakeries will learn that business is business and just bake cakes.

Or maybe people who demand that others respect their lifestyle could show a little tolerance of their own for the genuine beliefs of others.

Like Hillary, who says that religious beliefs have to change to accept "safe childbirth" practices.

TJDave
04-25-2015, 02:44 PM
Or maybe people who demand that others respect their lifestyle could show a little tolerance of their own for the genuine beliefs of others.

The judgment of the court says different.

Robert Fischer
04-25-2015, 02:55 PM
Whether Gay, or black , or tall , or left handed, or christian, or yankees fans,... should public shops be allowed to deny customers?

Clocker
04-25-2015, 02:59 PM
The judgment of the court says different.

That doesn't make it right.

"If the law supposes that," said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, "the law is a ass - a idiot". -- Dickens

To pick nits, this was not a court ruling. It was the decisions of an administrative law judge for the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries. It can now be appealed to the Oregon Labor Commissioner, and then it can go to court.

I suspect any semi-rational court would have trouble with the process, basing the "damages" solely on the testimony of the two blushing brides and a couple of their family members.

thaskalos
04-25-2015, 03:20 PM
Whether Gay, or black , or tall , or left handed, or christian, or yankees fans,... should public shops be allowed to deny customers?
No. If your religious beliefs don't allow you to cater to the public at large...then the retail business world is not for you. Open a monastery instead.

Robert Fischer
04-25-2015, 04:05 PM
https://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/bosh-espn.jpg
thaskalos 4 president

ArlJim78
04-25-2015, 05:35 PM
Whether Gay, or black , or tall , or left handed, or christian, or yankees fans,... should public shops be allowed to deny customers?
Of course they should be allowed. I'd rather live in a society where people are free to exercise their religious conviction or to simply be a bigot, than one where the state steps in to regulate all activity and choices.

Should black owned businesses be forced to do business with the KKK?
Let's say three guys in white sheets come in asking for cakes decorated with burning crosses, should the bakery lose their business if they don't comply?

Should Jewish bakeries be forced by the state to sell cakes to the Hitler Appreciation Society for their annual picnic?

Should a Muslim catering company be forced by the state to cater a pork producers convention?

Is the purchasing of baked goods fraught with such danger and unfairness that we need the state to intervene?

Greyfox
04-25-2015, 05:56 PM
Is the purchasing of baked goods fraught with such danger and unfairness that we need the state to intervene?

Good point.
Private businesses should be allowed to screen their clientele any way they want with no questions asked.
Public government businesses should serve everyone.
Political correctness has become a cancer when the government uses a law to punish the bakery as in this case.
Certainly the punishment does not fit what I consider to be a non-crime.

Tom
04-25-2015, 05:58 PM
The Fourth Reich begins.
Velcome to Amerika.


Personally, I would have baked the cake.
They would not have liked when they tasted it, but they would have had their cake.

dartman51
04-25-2015, 06:01 PM
Whether Gay, or black , or tall , or left handed, or christian, or yankees fans,... should public shops be allowed to deny customers?

Yes. A bartender can refuse to serve you if he 'thinks' you've had too much to drink. A restrurant can refuse to seat you if you don't have on the appropraite attire. We all are familiar with "NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE". There have always been instances of refusal of service.

Robert Fischer
04-25-2015, 06:05 PM
Both sides seem to have some merit.


hmmm... this isn't as easy, and clear-cut as i thought...

We can say that some of ArlJim78's examples were 'extreme'... - However, it again becomes a matter of determining what is 'extreme', and what is 'acceptable'. As well as who gets to decide.

Back to square one.

Stillriledup
04-25-2015, 06:06 PM
Seems like they lost focus of what they were doing in the first place. If you are a bakery, its not hard to bake a cake. If you don't want to bake a cake for certain people, you have the option to not open up a business in the first place. Its not all that hard.

Robert Fischer
04-25-2015, 06:06 PM
The Fourth Reich begins.
Velcome to Amerika.


Personally, I would have baked the cake.
They would not have liked when they tasted it, but they would have had their cake.

Good policy indeed, to never offend the chef!

Stillriledup
04-25-2015, 06:08 PM
The Fourth Reich begins.
Velcome to Amerika.


Personally, I would have baked the cake.
They would not have liked when they tasted it, but they would have had their cake.

You mighta got bad reviews on Yelp if that happened. :rolleyes:

Clocker
04-25-2015, 06:20 PM
Good point.
Private businesses should be allowed to screen their clientele any way they want with no questions asked.

I think the point here is more complex and more important. If the bakery has cupcakes in the display case, there is no legitimate reason not to sell them to any well behaved customer that walks in and wants some. And by the way, in at least one other such case, a baker refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple that were regular customers.

In this case, the customer is asking for the bakery to create a specialized product that it has never offered, never made, and which the owners feel is immoral for them to produce. The owners are not objecting to sell bakery products to gay people, they are refusing on religious grounds to produce something that they have never made and never sold.

All of that said, I agree with the more general concept that a private business should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

LottaKash
04-25-2015, 06:27 PM
Somehow, the judge determined that the "damages" to one woman was $60K, and $75K to the other.



Since it is basically a "man's world", I naturally assume that the 75k went to the "butch"... :D

Stillriledup
04-25-2015, 06:48 PM
I think the point here is more complex and more important. If the bakery has cupcakes in the display case, there is no legitimate reason not to sell them to any well behaved customer that walks in and wants some. And by the way, in at least one other such case, a baker refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple that were regular customers.

In this case, the customer is asking for the bakery to create a specialized product that it has never offered, never made, and which the owners feel is immoral for them to produce. The owners are not objecting to sell bakery products to gay people, they are refusing on religious grounds to produce something that they have never made and never sold.

All of that said, I agree with the more general concept that a private business should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

The problem is that anyone can say anything they want on 'religious grounds'. If you want to open a church, you can, than you can invoke religion.

Whether or not people SHOULD BE able to deny service to anyone for any reason, the laws say otherwise, so, as a business, they have to obey the law, the rest of it is just conversation.

Greyfox
04-25-2015, 07:37 PM
Whether or not people SHOULD BE able to deny service to anyone for any reason, the laws say otherwise, so, as a business, they have to obey the law, the rest of it is just conversation.

It is people who write laws who say otherwise.
Those lawmakers are often guilty of writing poor laws.
Laws are not necessarily right and just, nor are the punishments associated with them.

Robert Fischer
04-25-2015, 07:47 PM
Since it is basically a "man's world", I naturally assume that the 75k went to the "butch"... :D
touché

thaskalos
04-25-2015, 08:06 PM
I once had a city inspector walk into my grocery store and tell me that I was in violation of a city ordinance because my window signs covered up 30% of my window space, instead of the 16% that was allowed by law...and you guys think that a store could ever be allowed to get away with refusing service to anyone for any reason? In this country, you may own the store...but OTHERS tell you what to do.

Tom
04-25-2015, 08:11 PM
I once had a city inspector walk into my grocery store and tell me that I was in violation of a city ordinance because my window signs covered up 30% of my window space, instead of the 16% that was allowed by law...and you guys think that a store could ever be allowed to get away with refusing service to anyone for any reason? In this country, you may own the store...but OTHERS tell you what to do.

Well, then it time to change that.

The government pick and chooses what laws to enforce and obey, so we should have the same right. Laws are for losers.

Clocker
04-25-2015, 08:18 PM
It is people who write laws who say otherwise.
Those lawmakers are often guilty of writing poor laws.
Laws are not necessarily right and just, nor are the punishments associated with them.

As we have seen often. From Wiki:

Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, 573 U.S. ___ (2014), is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court allowing closely held for-profit corporations to be exempt from a law its owners religiously object to if there is a less restrictive means of furthering the law's interest.

How about going to a different baker. Is that less restrictive than a $135K fine?

Clocker
04-25-2015, 08:40 PM
Seems like they lost focus of what they were doing in the first place. If you are a bakery, its not hard to bake a cake. If you don't want to bake a cake for certain people, you have the option to not open up a business in the first place. Its not all that hard.

They knew what they were doing in the first place. The bakeries have been in business for many years. The judicial decisions that bakeries are public accommodations and must start making wedding cakes with gay marriage themes is fairly new.

therussmeister
04-25-2015, 10:56 PM
The problem is that anyone can say anything they want on 'religious grounds'. If you want to open a church, you can, than you can invoke religion.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/sex-club-seeks-nashville-blessing-vowing-church-30549289

Relwob Owner
04-25-2015, 11:14 PM
An Oregon judge has ordered bakers to pay $135,000 in "damages" for refusing to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. The bakers, a married couple, were forced to close the bakery and have no business assets. The fine could result in personal bankruptcy.

Claimed damages include “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “excessive sleep,” “felt mentally raped, dirty and shameful,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “pale and sick at home after work,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.”

No expert or medical testimony was presented to substantiate the "damages". Somehow, the judge determined that the "damages" to one woman was $60K, and $75K to the other.

This is going to start a rush of gay couples looking for religious bakers to offend them. :rolleyes:

http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/24/state-says-bakers-should-pay-135000-for-refusing-to-bake-cake-for-same-sex-wedding/


I am all for the rights of any race, creed,gender,etc...however, I don't see how you can start fining businesses for things like this. What should happen is what happens when any business does something that customers don't like. The customers give their feedback to everyone they know in hopes that the business suffers for their actions. Courts stepping in and fining them? I don't see it.

Robert Goren
04-25-2015, 11:22 PM
Bigotry has no place in business. I glad to see a court refused to let the bakery had behind the Bible, not that Bible in any place endorses what the bakery did. It fact it preaches the exact opposite. The bakery is lucky in my opinion that the judgment was not more. It should have been more. The idea that being gay is chose has long ago been proven as false. To deny service to people because of the way God made them is akin to denying service to someone because God gave them black skin. Lest we forget, that was done in many of the posters here's lifetime. The act of the bakery is as shameful as Lester Maddox's act in the sixties. Lets also not forget all the same arguments that the bakery used (and by posters here) was also used by the bigots back then. In fifty years from now the grandchildren will the owners of bakery will look back in shame for their grandparent did just as the grandchildren of the bigots of the sixties do now.

RoyalHeroine
04-25-2015, 11:45 PM
Whether Gay, or black , or tall , or left handed, or christian, or yankees fans,... should public shops be allowed to deny customers?

I'm old enough to remember signs in shops saying: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" (or something like that).

Guess there's no true freedom of choice anymore if you're in a business like that.

Robert Goren
04-26-2015, 12:00 AM
I'm old enough to remember signs in shops saying: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" (or something like that).

Guess there's no true freedom of choice anymore if you're in a business like that.That sign was prominent in shops that refuse serve people of different races or creeds. I thought we had moved past that kid of bigotry, but in the last several years it has once again reared its ugly head. Only this time it usually used against people of a different sexual preference. I guess some people just are looking for somebody to discriminate against. As more and more people become off limits, I wonder, if sooner or later, the bigots will get around to gamblers.

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 12:08 AM
That sign was prominent in shops that refuse serve people of different races or creeds. I thought we had moved past that kid of bigotry, but in the last several years it has once again reared its ugly head. Only this time it usually used against people of a different sexual preference. I guess some people just are looking for somebody to discriminate against. As more and more people become off limits, I wonder, if sooner or later, the bigots will get around to gamblers.
One wonders if the Christians have suddenly come to the realization that homosexuality is their religion's only sin. They are unwilling to cater to the gays...but they have no problem doing business with thieves, adulterers...or lawyers.

Robert Goren
04-26-2015, 12:20 AM
One wonders if the Christians have suddenly come to the realization that homosexuality is their religion's only sin. They are unwilling to cater to the gays...but they have no problem doing business with thieves, adulterers...or lawyers. or politicians.

Clocker
04-26-2015, 12:42 AM
Bigotry has no place in business.

I don't see bigotry here. These people are not refusing to serve gays. They are refusing to undertake activities that they consider to be immoral for them to perform.

There is a clear difference between selling some brownies to a gay couple and designing a gay-themed wedding cake made to order.

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 12:45 AM
I don't see bigotry here. These people are not refusing to serve gays. They are refusing to undertake activities that they consider to be immoral for them to perform.

There is a clear difference between selling some brownies to a gay couple and designing a gay-themed wedding cake made to order.

Were the bakers asked to cater to the gay wedding...or were they simply asked to bake the cake?

And do we know what this "gay theme" really was?

Clocker
04-26-2015, 01:17 AM
Were the bakers asked to cater to the gay wedding...or were they simply asked to bake the cake?

And do we know what this "gay theme" really was?

What difference do the details make? These people refused to do something that they said was against their religion. They said it, they believed it, and it cost them their bakery and potentially a lot more.

We can question the prudence of their actions or the rationality of their beliefs, but no one else can judge their personal integrity and their faithfulness to their beliefs.

Greyfox
04-26-2015, 01:24 AM
The bakery is lucky in my opinion that the judgment was not more. It should have been more.

The judgment was $135,000 for refusing to bake a cake and you think the fine should have been more??:rolleyes:

Give your head a shake Robert.
If you had ever owned a private business you would know that a fine of that nature would bankrupt many businesses.
A psychiatric evaluation of the judge would be a better idea.

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 01:25 AM
What difference do the details make? These people refused to do something that they said was against their religion. They said it, they believed it, and it cost them their bakery and potentially a lot more.

We can question the prudence of their actions or the rationality of their beliefs, but no one else can judge their personal integrity and their faithfulness to their beliefs.

True. And I hope their God repays them for their faith at this difficult stage that they find themselves in.

Stillriledup
04-26-2015, 03:38 AM
One wonders if the Christians have suddenly come to the realization that homosexuality is their religion's only sin. They are unwilling to cater to the gays...but they have no problem doing business with thieves, adulterers...or lawyers.

This is the problem. If you are not serving people who break moral laws of your religion, there's a lot more "Sinners" out there. Gambling is a "sin" too, are we not going to serve people who bought a scratch off at 7-11 this morning?

Also, it really comes down to why should customers have to adhere to someone else's religion...they're saying that if you don't practice my religion, i'm going to hold it against you and make your life uncomfortable as well as inconvenient.

TJDave
04-26-2015, 04:39 AM
True. And I hope their God repays them for their faith at this difficult stage that they find themselves in.

:lol:

Robert Goren
04-26-2015, 06:52 AM
The judgment was $135,000 for refusing to bake a cake and you think the fine should have been more??:rolleyes:

Give your head a shake Robert.
If you had ever owned a private business you would know that a fine of that nature would bankrupt many businesses.
A psychiatric evaluation of the judge would be a better idea.I actually have owned two. A tavern and a liquor store. In the interest of truthfulness, I borrowed the money to buy both, so actually the bank owned both. I never felt I was in a position to turn away a customer unless I was legally obligated to do so. Of course when your the liquor business, if you get judgmental about your customers, you won't have any.
In my opinion, if your religion interferes with your business, then it is past time to get into a different business. I don't think you should be allowed to pick your customers ever. That is a very dangerous road to go down. We have been down that road in the past and it is a piece of our history that most of us are not proud of.

Greyfox
04-26-2015, 09:13 AM
I actually have owned two. A tavern and a liquor store. .

Okay, you've owned (along with the bank) two businesses.
Let us suppose the bakers are truly bigoted against gays and let's suppose a fine is fair (a supposition that I don't believe.)
My concern with your post is that you felt these bigots could have received an even larger judgment against them.
I am saying even if they are guilty of something, a fine of that size is totally irrational.
In imposing a fine that high the Judge was acting in a totally irrational manner responding to some of his or her deep seated emotional problems.
My question to you is:
"Do you really feel that this is a fair punishment for simply turning two gay customers away?"
If your answer is "Yes!" Tell us why.

Tom
04-26-2015, 09:15 AM
One wonders if the Christians have suddenly come to the realization that homosexuality is their religion's only sin. They are unwilling to cater to the gays...but they have no problem doing business with thieves, adulterers...or lawyers.

If you don't see the difference in that, you are not thinking clearly.
Do thieve ask for a cake with a gun and mask on it?
Ever see an adultery cake?

Come on, you are just reaching to insult Christians.

And Bobby, this was in now way bigotry.

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 12:21 PM
If you don't see the difference in that, you are not thinking clearly.
Do thieve ask for a cake with a gun and mask on it?
Ever see an adultery cake?

Come on, you are just reaching to insult Christians.

And Bobby, this was in now way bigotry.
No, Tom...I try hard not to insult anybody. In my view...it's the Christians who do the insulting...when they allow their beliefs to interfere with the way business is done in this country. Yes, if you are a Christian, it is wrong for you to practise homosexuality. But it isn't wrong to sell a cake to a homosexual. In fact, it is wrong for the Christian to REFUSE to sell the cake! Jesus himself said: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"...and, "judge not, lest ye too be judged".

People interpret their "religion" in any way that they like...and then they assume that they can treat people however they want...while using religion as a shield. Christianity's founder is Jesus the Christ....and he taught "love". Love for our neighbors...love for our enemies...love for the whole world. When you are a Christian baker, then your job is to sell cakes to the public...and leave the "judgements" to your Lord, as Jesus instructed.

Tom
04-26-2015, 12:41 PM
Thanks for confirming my thought.
Here's he bottom line - those people who lost their business to a corrupt government run by scum bags who want to control everyone's live did nothing to interfere with those people - they have multiple option of where to buy a cake.

All they did was choose not to participate.
The bottom line is it THEY who are interfering with people's lives.

LottaKash
04-26-2015, 12:48 PM
When you are a Christian baker, then your job is to sell cakes to the public...and leave the "judgements" to your Lord, as Jesus instructed.


But, the Bible also says this; from Psalm 94:16...

"Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"

Being queer is an iniquity in the eyes of God...He said it was an abomination..

So these people stood up for their belief(s) and in return they got an iniquity heaped on them... Great country we have grown here...

I thought there was supposed to be a separation of church and state, so how come the state can tell people what and how they should believe without having to suffer such dire consequences ?...Shouldn't it work both ways ?..

What wussynitpickers we have become.....

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 12:51 PM
Thanks for confirming my thought.
Here's he bottom line - those people who lost their business to a corrupt government run by scum bags who want to control everyone's live did nothing to interfere with those people - they have multiple option of where to buy a cake.

All they did was choose not to participate.
The bottom line is it THEY who are interfering with people's lives.
How do you know that the other bakeries would serve the gays? There are a lot of Christian bakers out there, you know. Are the gay customers supposed to go looking for a gay baker?

There are anti-discrimination laws in this country, Tom...and if a businessman isn't aware of this...then he is running the risk of ending up both bankrupt AND despised. And that's a bad combination.

Tom
04-26-2015, 01:01 PM
What a pathetic reply.

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 01:02 PM
But, the Bible also says this; from Psalm 94:16...

Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?

Being queer is an iniquity in the eyes of God...He said it was an abomination..

So these people stood up for their belief(s) and in return they got an iniquity heaped on them... Great country we have grown here...

I thought there was supposed to be a separation of church and state, so how come the state can tell people what and how they should believe without having to suffer such dire consequences ?...Shouldn't it work both ways ?..

What wussynitpickers we have become.....

The license to operate your business is granted by the state, not the Church. And you are obligated to operate your business in a certain way, if you want to remain in business. This isn't news...everybody already knows this.

Your idea of a "great country" is a place where..."private businesses can refuse to serve anyone, for any reason", as Clocker stated earlier? You and I walk into a restaurant...and you are served food to eat, while I am shown the door? Come on...

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 01:03 PM
What a pathetic reply.
The pathetic replies are what you are all about. Why don't you look at your prior reply to me...and see if it matched my post to you.

Robert Fischer
04-26-2015, 01:59 PM
been doing some yard work and working on the car.


Have we come to an agreement yet? ;)

Inner Dirt
04-26-2015, 02:13 PM
I am a small machine shop owner, someone wanted me to make them a Nazi grill emblem for their custom car a few years back. I told them what they could do with their design. Would it be right for a judge to fine me because I won't do business with white supremacists? I can't even object on religious grounds as I am not religious. I see it as the same thing, I refused to have someone as a customer because of their life style.

Clocker
04-26-2015, 02:44 PM
Your idea of a "great country" is a place where..."private businesses can refuse to serve anyone, for any reason", as Clocker stated earlier? You and I walk into a restaurant...and you are served food to eat, while I am shown the door? Come on...

If I run a restaurant and you do not dress or act appropriately, as defined by me, you aren't coming in. If I am unreasonable about that, word gets around and my business suffers.

dartman51
04-26-2015, 02:45 PM
I am a small machine shop owner, someone wanted me to make them a Nazi grill emblem for their custom car a few years back. I told them what they could do with their design. Would it be right for a judge to fine me because I won't do business with white supremacists? I can't even object on religious grounds as I am not religious. I see it as the same thing, I refused to have someone as a customer because of their life style.

I believe you have EVERY right to do so. I believe that it's wrong to descriminate because of race, but lifestyle is a whole different ballgame.

OntheRail
04-26-2015, 02:46 PM
How do you know that the other bakeries would serve the gays? There are a lot of Christian bakers out there, you know. Are the gay customers supposed to go looking for a gay baker?

There are anti-discrimination laws in this country, Tom...and if a businessman isn't aware of this...then he is running the risk of ending up both bankrupt AND despised. And that's a bad combination.

How about Jackie and Jill just order a damn cake without injecting their Gayness into the transaction. Hi We'd like a Wedding cake to serve X number of people... No plastic Bride and Groom on top. Is that something you can do for us... Thank You? No they can't do that could they... they had to flaunt and push the fact that they were queer. Making other around them feel uncomfortable... like a loud mouthed drunk. I'm sick of groups pushing their lifestyle on others publicly. Demanding tolerance while offering none. What they do in their own homes I could care less... but any flagrant behavior in public discriminates against many's sensibilities. I don't want to see a leather clad masochist draggin' thier hog tied diaper wearing cohort in a Radio Flyer thru the WalMart... but that's where we're heading.

Also who's to say they did not target this Bakery...?

You know... I went to the Parts store... looking for a replacement door handle that broke due to the door being frozen shut. They told me they did not have one for my vehicle. Maybe I should of sue them for discrimination against my model (as they had others but not mine nor could they order it) , emotional distress from the inability to enter my van from the rear... :rolleyes:

Instead I just thanked them and found it online... ;)

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 02:50 PM
If I run a restaurant and you do not dress or act appropriately, as defined by me, you aren't coming in. If I am unreasonable about that, word gets around and my business suffers.
That's not what you said earlier. You said that you believe every private business should be allowed to refuse to serve anyone, for any reason.

thaskalos
04-26-2015, 03:00 PM
... they had to flaunt and push the fact that they were queer. Making other around them feel uncomfortable... like a loud mouthed drunk. I'm sick of groups pushing their lifestyle on others publicly. Demanding tolerance while offering none. What they do in their own homes I could care less... but any flagrant behavior in public discriminates against many's sensibilities.
Perhaps you are right. Well...at least we can take comfort in the fact that those bakers won't have to be bothered like that anymore.

Clocker
04-26-2015, 03:07 PM
That's not what you said earlier. You said that you believe every private business should be allowed to refuse to serve anyone, for any reason.

I stand by my earlier statement. I was only giving examples of reasons, it was not intended to be exhaustive.

Robert Goren
04-26-2015, 05:13 PM
Okay, you've owned (along with the bank) two businesses.
Let us suppose the bakers are truly bigoted against gays and let's suppose a fine is fair (a supposition that I don't believe.)
My concern with your post is that you felt these bigots could have received an even larger judgment against them.
I am saying even if they are guilty of something, a fine of that size is totally irrational.
In imposing a fine that high the Judge was acting in a totally irrational manner responding to some of his or her deep seated emotional problems.
My question to you is:
"Do you really feel that this is a fair punishment for simply turning two gay customers away?"
If your answer is "Yes!" Tell us why. The answer is yes. I do not believe that a business can be allowed to decide who they are going to do business. If you turn the back the clock back 50 or so years and you will see why. It is very short step from refusing a legal service or product because a someone is gay to refusing a legal service or product to someone is Jewish or Catholic or an atheist or a gambler or whatever. In order for a "free" country to work, everyone of its citizens must have access to every product or service provided, of course, they can afford it. The idea that businesses can discriminate against anyone must quashed before it regains a foothold again.

Robert Goren
04-26-2015, 05:32 PM
I am a small machine shop owner, someone wanted me to make them a Nazi grill emblem for their custom car a few years back. I told them what they could do with their design. Would it be right for a judge to fine me because I won't do business with white supremacists? I can't even object on religious grounds as I am not religious. I see it as the same thing, I refused to have someone as a customer because of their life style. As much as I dislike NAZIs, you were probably wrong. If you make grill emblems of any kind, you are obligated the sell him one. Now if you don't make grill emblems of any kind, you are not. There are grey areas like the person who sells US flags and does not stock Confederate flags. Or in my case who did stock Dewars scotch because I would not sell enough to warrant carrying it, but I should be forced sell anything I have in stock to anyone. But where you are actually manufacturing the product, the grey area disappears. For the record, this is the same position that the NRA advocates for licensed gun dealers. If you have it, you must sell it. To do anything, violates a legal customer's second amendment rights.

Robert Goren
04-26-2015, 05:35 PM
But, the Bible also says this; from Psalm 94:16...

"Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"

Being queer is an iniquity in the eyes of God...He said it was an abomination..

So these people stood up for their belief(s) and in return they got an iniquity heaped on them... Great country we have grown here...

I thought there was supposed to be a separation of church and state, so how come the state can tell people what and how they should believe without having to suffer such dire consequences ?...Shouldn't it work both ways ?..

What wussynitpickers we have become..... Then why did God create them? Be Gay is not a choice. Being a bigot is.

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2015, 05:36 PM
As much as I dislike NAZIs, you were probably wrong. If you make grill emblems of any kind, you are obligated the sell him one. Now if you don't make grill emblems of any kind, you are not. .

I don't even think you believe this. You're just trying to be what you perceive to be intellectually consistent. You can't see the difference between a group that preaches hate/racism and selling a cake to a gay couple? I'm not even saying I necessarily agree with you on the latter matter, but don't make this absurd argument.

newtothegame
04-26-2015, 05:44 PM
You know, I find one certain aspect of this story to be hilarious (and not yet mentioned that I have seen).....

Let's change one slight thing in the story...Lets say the bakery refused the consumers and said they would close down before they served gays.....
Liberals would be in an uproar and say that they couldn't close the business and a court would most likely step in (what the ruling would be ...who knows).

In this case, the business may be forced to close and the liberals are backing the judgement to put people out of work.......lmao....

So, I guess you could say they want their cake and eat it too!!!

What effin hypocrits!!!

Clocker
04-26-2015, 06:15 PM
If you make grill emblems of any kind, you are obligated the sell him one.

You don't see a difference between selling stuff off the shelf and doing custom design and production? You don't see a problem with the government telling a private business what products it has to sell?

And if the government makes someone produce a Nazi grill emblem, what if he wants to charge $1000 for it? Can the government set prices too?

Saratoga_Mike
04-26-2015, 06:22 PM
You don't see a difference between selling stuff off the shelf and doing custom design and production? You don't see a problem with the government telling a private business what products it has to sell?

And if the government makes someone produce a Nazi grill emblem, what if he wants to charge $1000 for it? Can the government set prices too?

By his logic, if the grills are sold to others for $1,000, then they must be sold to Nazis for $1,000. We must not discriminate against Nazis. Wow.

TJDave
04-26-2015, 09:58 PM
There are grey areas like the person who sells US flags and does not stock Confederate flags.

The confederate forces surrendered to general Grant 150 years ago.

ultracapper
04-27-2015, 12:56 AM
Whether Gay, or black , or tall , or left handed, or christian, or yankees fans,... should public shops be allowed to deny customers?

No shirts, no shoes........

You should be allowed to conduct business with anyone you like, or not with anybody you prefer not to. If every convenience store in Seattle chose not to serve gays, I'd be opening a convenience store right now. Do you realize the gay population in Seattle. I'd be a millionaire in 3 months. As long as the restrictions aren't government endorsed, or coercion, you should be able to refuse service to anybody you like. Somebody will fill the slack. It's called free enterprise.

Inner Dirt
04-27-2015, 10:51 AM
The guy wanted a grill emblem shaped like a swastika, it would have been a custom one off. So it wasn't like I refused to sell something to the Nazi that I sell to others. Like the baker I refused to make a custom item because I was against what it represented. To me legally it is the exact same thing, I discriminated because of someone's life style. Of course no judge is going to fine someone for discriminating against Nazis.

Tom
04-27-2015, 11:40 AM
I am sure if the gay couple stopped in to buy donuts off the shelf, they would be served.

Is this not similar to the disgusting bus ads in another thread?

There is not an uproar over who wants the ads, just the content.
I am sure if the ads were not totally reprehensible, there would no fuss about the group wanting to buy ad space.

OntheRail
04-27-2015, 01:20 PM
The guy wanted a grill emblem shaped like a swastika, it would have been a custom one off. So it wasn't like I refused to sell something to the Nazi that I sell to others. Like the baker I refused to make a custom item because I was against what it represented. To me legally it is the exact same thing, I discriminated because of someone's life style. Of course no judge is going to fine someone for discriminating against Nazis.

You never know with Liberal Judges these days. Plus they could be Gay Nazis.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tmOYAbNKf7w/S_8UiToq9zI/AAAAAAAADnM/ANz3Xs256ho/s320/gay-nazis1.jpg

TJDave
04-27-2015, 01:41 PM
You don't see a difference between selling stuff off the shelf and doing custom design and production?


Custom? :lol:

https://www.etsy.com/market/gay_cake_topper

Don't forget having to change Congratulations Tom and Tracy to Tom and Troy.

Clocker
04-27-2015, 01:44 PM
Custom? :lol:

https://www.etsy.com/market/gay_cake_topper

Don't forget having to change Congratulations Tom and Tracy to Tom and Troy.

The discussion was about custom Nazi grill emblems. :rolleyes:

classhandicapper
04-27-2015, 03:08 PM
I wonder if it would be legally possible for a "Christian" business to create some kind of franchise agreement with a specific church where "X%" of the revenue goes to that church. The church itself would have control over who can get that kind of agreement. Then you could argue you aren't actually a private business. You are a church business and you are running a more organized "bake sale" etc... that profits both parties.

I'm sure the totalitarians would try to force those churches to go against their deeply held convictions also, but I don't think the general public has become so unprincipled when it comes to freedom that they would think it's OK for the government to tell the church itself what it should do. If it ever gets to that point, I'll either be out of here or quietly funding the revolution.

Tom
04-27-2015, 03:48 PM
If there is a Church out there, or people with beliefs, you can bet the dems will target them.

delayjf
04-27-2015, 04:17 PM
Then why did God create them? Be Gay is not a choice. Being a bigot is.

Actually, they have no choice either - remember they suffer from a mental disorder called homophobia. They should be eligible or disability and handicapped parking.

therussmeister
04-27-2015, 05:21 PM
Actually, they have no choice either - remember they suffer from a mental disorder called homophobia. They should be eligible or disability and handicapped parking.
And they should be denied cake.

Greyfox
04-27-2015, 05:56 PM
Then why did God create them? Be Gay is not a choice. .

Gay may not be a choice, but celibacy is.

TJDave
04-27-2015, 06:09 PM
Gay may not be a choice, but celibacy is.

I see. So God makes gays then insists they be celibate?

Is this his idea of a joke? :rolleyes:

Stillriledup
04-27-2015, 06:18 PM
Gay may not be a choice, but celibacy is.

How does the bakery know if the gay couple actually has sex? Maybe they are celibate and haven't "consummated" the relationship yet.

Robert Fischer
04-27-2015, 06:29 PM
How does the bakery know if the gay couple actually has sex? Maybe they are celibate and haven't "consummated" the relationship yet.


the icing on the cake?


:D:D

Stillriledup
04-27-2015, 06:32 PM
the icing on the cake?


:D:D

IdGctvNhfNc

newtothegame
04-27-2015, 06:39 PM
The bottom line here (is almost the same as I said in the gay NFL player thread).
This is a case of the couple wanting other people to KNOW they are gay and to respect their decisions. Yet, on the other hand, they are not respecting the decisions of the owners of the bakery.
I am sure there are many bakeries in that town who would of gladly made their request. That's not good enough! EVERYONE needs to see and know they are gay and respect their wishes!!!
So, tell me why is it we can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore?? Those are my wishes! Why aren't my wishes being respected???

I don't need to go into a bakery and announce what happens in my bedroom. I make an order, and if the bakery say's they do not do that, I politely thank them, and go down the street to the next baker. It's simple. I do business with those who will fill my request. If a business does not fill my request, I just go somewhere else!
And Robert, as to the "we reserve the right to refuse service signs", they are still all over! Today, I went to my local "metropolitan male" to get my hair cut and guess what was in the door? You guessed it!

classhandicapper
04-27-2015, 06:57 PM
So, tell me why is it we can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore?? Those are my wishes! Why aren't my wishes being respected???



Because Christmas is a Christian holiday and the goal of the hard left is to discredit and destroy all objective Christian values and influences on society. That way they can do whatever they want guilt free no matter how badly it destroys civilization.

Actually, the goal is to destroy all religion, but Christians make a much easier target. Christians are so passive they are sometimes guilted into silence even when they know they are standing up for superior morals and values. Muslims fight back and they don't use words. It's a shame so many Muslims are extremists because they'd make a good political ally.

Greyfox
04-27-2015, 07:05 PM
I see. So God makes gays then insists they be celibate?

Is this his idea of a joke? :rolleyes:

You don't believe in God so why ask a non-starter question?

TJDave
04-27-2015, 07:10 PM
You don't believe in God so why ask a non-starter question?

Because you do.

Greyfox
04-27-2015, 07:16 PM
Because you do.

I have no interest in your question. So I won't speculate on why some higher power would do that.

If you ever believe in a higher power, you can ask him (she, it).

TJDave
04-27-2015, 07:42 PM
I have no interest in your question. So I won't speculate on why some higher power would do that.

If you ever believe in a higher power, you can ask him (she, it).

Sorry, I thought you were a believer.

Still, you must admit the absurdity, cruelty and perversion of a god creating someone gay then telling them having sex is a sin.

Greyfox
04-27-2015, 07:49 PM
Sorry, I thought you were a believer.

Still, you must admit the absurdity, cruelty and perversion of a god creating someone gay then telling them having sex is a sin.

We all have our challenges. Some more than others.

Tom
04-27-2015, 08:50 PM
What nonsense is on display in this thread.
This has nothing to do with gays having sex, which is their business, not ours.

This is just about not forcing others to have participate against their will.

Stillriledup
04-27-2015, 08:57 PM
What nonsense is on display in this thread.
This has nothing to do with gays having sex, which is their business, not ours.

This is just about not forcing others to have participate against their will.

But its not against their will since they're business owners already. They could go out of business, so they have a choice and if you have a choice, its not against your will.

Tom
04-27-2015, 09:04 PM
But its not against their will since they're business owners already. They could go out of business, so they have a choice and if you have a choice, its not against your will.

No, not at all.
How many requests do you think they get for that kind of cake?
It is against your will if you do not want to do it.

Clocker
04-27-2015, 10:52 PM
They could go out of business, so they have a choice and if you have a choice, its not against your will.

And if someone sticks a gun in your face and says give me your wallet or I'll kill you, you have a choice. Therefore handing over your wallet is not against your will.

Stillriledup
04-27-2015, 10:57 PM
And if someone sticks a gun in your face and says give me your wallet or I'll kill you, you have a choice. Therefore handing over your wallet is not against your will.

Yeah, i don't know if i'm on board with you here.

ReplayRandall
04-27-2015, 11:24 PM
And if someone sticks a gun in your face and says give me your wallet or I'll kill you, you have a choice. Therefore handing over your wallet is not against your will.
What choice? The guy with the gun gets your wallet, period......Your life has nothing to do with it, Dead or Alive.

delayjf
04-28-2015, 02:44 PM
I see. So God makes gays then insists they be celibate?

Is this his idea of a joke?

I disagree with your premise. God doesn't make gays anymore than God makes mass murders - He makes people and gives them free will.

PaceAdvantage
04-28-2015, 02:49 PM
I disagree with your premise. God doesn't make gays anymore than God makes mass murders - He makes people and gives them free will.I disagree with your premise.

There is no free will on who you find attractive as potential mates. It's buried deep inside somewhere...your brain...your dna...whatever and wherever...it's there. If you're FUBAR and you find animals attractive as mates, again, that's out of your control.

Whether we are born this way, or it develops somehow when we are very young or just hitting puberty, something about which we have no control determines who and what stokes our flames of passion. And that will rarely if ever change over the course of your life. And you have no control over what turns you on.

Can you suppress those desires and live life according to how you think society wishes you to live? Or how the LAW commands you to live? Yes, of course you can...and to survive as a free person, in some cases, you must.

But I don't buy for a second that we can choose who or what actually floats our boats.

Whoever MAKES us this way....God...our environment...or the man on the moon...doesn't matter. But we are most definitely, some how, some way, MADE this way, and it is out of our control in a very real sense.

Robert Goren
04-28-2015, 04:17 PM
Gay may not be a choice, but celibacy is. I have never meet a male who practiced celibacy their entire life voluntarily.

newtothegame
04-28-2015, 06:59 PM
I have never meet a male who practiced celibacy their entire life voluntarily.
Entitely too much info for this board!!! :lol:

delayjf
04-29-2015, 05:50 PM
I disagree with your premise.

There is no free will on who you find attractive as potential mates. It's buried deep inside somewhere...your brain...your dna...whatever and wherever...it's there. If you're FUBAR and you find animals attractive as mates, again, that's out of your control.

Whether we are born this way, or it develops somehow when we are very young or just hitting puberty, something about which we have no control determines who and what stokes our flames of passion. And that will rarely if ever change over the course of your life. And you have no control over what turns you on.

Can you suppress those desires and live life according to how you think society wishes you to live? Or how the LAW commands you to live? Yes, of course you can...and to survive as a free person, in some cases, you must.

But I don't buy for a second that we can choose who or what actually floats our boats.

Whoever MAKES us this way....God...our environment...or the man on the moon...doesn't matter. But we are most definitely, some how, some way, MADE this way, and it is out of our control in a very real sense.

My interpretation of Robert Goren’s and Greyfox’s premise within their posts was that - since God created the world and everything in it - to include gays. Then the world’s gay population existence is, by proxy, God’s endorsement of homosexuality.
I understand and agree with many points you make above, but while I do agree individuals can’t help their personal sexual attractions – they can help acting upon them. My problem with the “my DNA made me do it” philosophy is that it tends to removes any personal responsibility for one’s actions – we can all just blame our genetics or environment for how we act. I know that the gay community and its supporters commonly point to this philosophy as to why they are of the gay persuasion, and rather than have to make a moral stand and suffer thru the verbal assault by the left, more and more people are willing to accept that premise as a sort of appeasement to the gay community - The whole gay issue really doesn't affect most people and I think most just want it to go away.

But if you are going to buy off on the notion that we are all victims of our genetics or environment, then that same theory can also be used to dismiss practically any other deviant behavior. For example, we hear more and more about men who cheat on their wives who now claim to being addicted to sex. Low and behold, sex addiction is now a recognized medical mental disorder. As we move further down this road, society itself become more of a corrupting influence as it accepts and excuses more and more bad behavior – the slippery slope is real.

Tom
04-29-2015, 09:38 PM
Entitely too much info for this board!!! :lol:

I wonder how he knows for sure? :eek: