Charles Town Classic discussion

[letswastemoney]

Not much drama here. But I chose the race weeks ago before I knew the field, so I wrote about it.

https://t.co/vGubUkjuBW

The only concern is whether :4: Shared Belief likes three turns. There's always a difference between one turn races and two turns, so I have no doubt three turns may turn off some horses.

If something crazy happens, :6: Moreno and :7: General a Rod are most likely to pull the upset.

[Relwob Owner]

Not much drama here. But I chose the race weeks ago before I knew the field, so I wrote about it.

https://t.co/vGubUkjuBW

The only concern is whether :4: Shared Belief likes three turns. There's always a difference between one turn races and two turns, so I have no doubt three turns may turn off some horses.

If something crazy happens, :6: Moreno and :7: General a Rod are most likely to pull the upset.

I think you are right on target. I wish Moreno and GAR each had a local jock like Montano or Acosta riding them.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't see any flaws in Shared Belief at this point.

Any horse could lose any race, but I can't make a case for betting against him here. I also can't make a case for betting on him to win 2.20 or whatever.

[biggestal99]

The only flaw i see is the trainer, hasn,t shipped a horse that won east since 2013,

Allan

[letswastemoney]

The only flaw i see is the trainer, hasn,t shipped a horse that won east since 2013,

Allan
Hollendorfer?

He used to ship Hystericalady all the time to avoid synthetic and she won a lot of those races. Blind Luck shipped well too. The right horse will win east for him.

[Relwob Owner]

The only flaw i see is the trainer, hasn,t shipped a horse that won east since 2013,

Allan


There are some factors I see that could lead to this horse losing and the trainer would never be one of them. He has done an amazing job with this horse.

[Kash$]

Im going with her...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CC1E3dSWAAAXEWQ.jpg

[letswastemoney]

Im going with her...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CC1E3dSWAAAXEWQ.jpgShe recommended 10 to win and place on Shared Belief?

Eh...not enough public handicappers endorse a skip these days. Recommending 10 to win Shared Belief may turn out right, but it's an odd recommendation for a horse 3/5.

[NY BRED]

Only question and/or Vegas type bet is the * of lengths of
SB's victory.

:jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump:

[acorn54]

harvey pack use to say: "not a bettor alive, that paid the mortgage on a 3/5"

[Some_One]

harvey pack use to say: "not a bettor alive, that paid the mortgage on a 3/5"

And that mentality is why 3/5's will be on average a better EV play versus a 10/1 shot.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I think you are right on target. I wish Moreno and GAR each had a local jock like Montano or Acosta riding them.

Yep.

Montano is why I'm interested in :2: Vyjack. He'll have 10 rides on the day under him, as well as Vyjack getting a work over the surface.

Looks to me like the :8: is gonna cause :6: Moreno problems with his hopes of wiring the field, which I see as his only chance. :7: General a Rod just doesn't seem ready to take down a race like this just yet. :9: Imperative careered it last year in this race, and has proven time and again he is well short of Shared Belief.

The :3: Street Babe is an interesting entry. Pretty aggressively placed in here, and the eastern stakes racing veteran :5: Page McKenney could easily grab a piece of the pie.

In the end, I'll likely just be watching as SB simply towers over this field.

[Relwob Owner]

Yep.

Montano is why I'm interested in :2: Vyjack. He'll have 10 rides on the day under him, as well as Vyjack getting a work over the surface.

Looks to me like the :8: is gonna cause :6: Moreno problems with his hopes of wiring the field, which I see as his only chance. :7: General a Rod just doesn't seem ready to take down a race like this just yet. :9: Imperative careered it last year in this race, and has proven time and again he is well short of Shared Belief.

The :3: Street Babe is an interesting entry. Pretty aggressively placed in here, and the eastern stakes racing veteran :5: Page McKenney could easily grab a piece of the pie.

In the end, I'll likely just be watching as SB simply towers over this field.

SB definitely towers over the field. However, every good handicapper I have read has said its good to bet against a favorite doing things for the first time. SB is first outside of California, first around three turns and first at CT. Seems to have looked beat around the far turn of some of his previous races but then accelerated in the long stretch runs here. Horses at CT usually make their big moves earlier around the far turn so we will see if he can do that. My problem is finding the horse to beat him, as they all look alike. Gonna take a shot and bet 2,3,6,7 Exacta box and now have decided in the 2 and 6 to win. Really wish Montano was in Moreno and confused why they are going with Cornelio. Will be up there and should be fun.

[Grits]

SB definitely towers over the field. However, every good handicapper I have read has said its good to bet against a favorite doing things for the first time. SB is first outside of California, first around three turns and first at CT. Seems to have looked beat around the far turn of some of his previous races but then accelerated in the long stretch runs here. Horses at CT usually make their big moves earlier around the far turn so we will see if he can do that. My problem is finding the horse to beat him, as they all look alike. Gonna take a shot and bet 2,3,6,7 Exacta box and now have decided in the 2 and 6 to win. Really wish Montano was in Moreno and confused why they are going with Cornelio. Will be up there and should be fun.

Enjoy the big race, Relwob. Now, wishing I'd made the drive. I really like this racehorse, not only his performance on the track but his near black color..which is unusual. He's stunning.

This is Mike Beer's break down of each entry. He likes SB and General ARod.

http://timeformusblog.com/2015/04/17/saturday-stakes-preview-shared-belief-looks-dominant-coming-into-charles-town-classic/

[Tom]

SB doesn't do his best on turns, and there are three of them today.
He will probably win, but who cares?

I would have rather had him run in the Pimlico Special.
I'll watch if I can figure out what channel the race is on.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm always looking for a horse that can make some kind of ridiculous middle move into the pace and somehow hold off some of the more patient riders at a big price and so I'm taking a real tiny stab at :5: Page McKenney.

[jettroofer]

:2: :4: :5: EX/Tri Box
:2: W
:5: W
2,4/2,4,5/5,6,7 Tri
5,6,7/2,4,5/2,4 Tri

[Tall One]

SB pulled up...hope everything is ok

[TucsonGreyhound]

Ridiculous camera work on that race.

[Frost king]

And Chareston swallows up another one.

[Grits]

My God, what .... nothing from the beginning.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

SB doesn't do his best on turns, and there are three of them today.
He will probably win, but who cares?

I would have rather had him run in the Pimlico Special.
I'll watch if I can figure out what channel the race is on.

Thanks for posting this Tom. I played a small tri with 4 over 5 and 6, and put small saver win bets on both the 5 and 6. I thought the 6 was 15-1 with a minute to post. Inside info that SB was going to the mat?

[jettroofer]

That's why they race them. Shouldn't have left out imperative. LOL

[Robert Fischer]

That was weird.
Did he injure himself loading into the gate?
Did he throw a shoe at the start?

Hopefully he is OK.

[nijinski]

Hope SB is OK !

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Wow.

Some bridge jumping, but those payouts are going to be phenomenal.

Congrats to those backing Moreno. :ThmbUp:

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Wow.

No bridge jumping, but those payouts are going to be phenomenal.

Congrats to those backing Moreno. :ThmbUp:

Show payoffs indicate there was some bridge jumping....

[VeryOldMan]

Both Shared Belief and Down Town Allen (the long-time queen of WV-bred racing) pulled up today.

What the heck?

[outofthebox]

After the bad start Smith was tapping him on the shoulder into the clubhouse turn. At that time i knew it was over for him. Hope he is ok and all it is a foot problem.

[Grits]

That was weird.
Did he injure himself loading into the gate?
Did he throw a shoe at the start?

Hopefully he is OK.

This is what I'm wondering. Nothing, from out of the gate. I want them to talk to Mike. That'll come shortly.

[picojim]

Wow.

Some bridge jumping, but those payouts are going to be phenomenal.

Congrats to those backing Moreno. :ThmbUp:

um there was bridge jumpers , 0ver 600K to show,
$23.20 ,$71.20 , $45.60 the show prices

[Lemon Drop Husker]

um there was bridge jumpers , 0ver 600K to show,
$23.20 ,$71.20 , $45.60 the show prices

Yes, I meant to say SOME not "No". I changed it later.

[Tom]

Wow.

Some bridge jumping, but those payouts are going to be phenomenal.

Congrats to those backing Moreno. :ThmbUp:

At 7-1, nice!
But not as nice as the SHOW hole! :eek:

[biggestal99]

The only flaw i see is the trainer, hasn,t shipped a horse that won east since 2013,

Allan

The losing streak for hollendorfer continues......

Allan

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Last year's champ pays $41.60 and $71.20 to Place and Show this year.

That is just unreal.

[olddaddy]

tri and ex seem light.

[VeryOldMan]

Last year's champ pays $41.60 and $71.20 to Place and Show this year.

That is just unreal.

Amen!

Anyone else wonder about the track surface? Shared Belief and Down Town Allen ran into trouble on the same turn. DTA has utterly owned this track.

[WP1981]

tri and ex seem light.

+1

[Hoofless_Wonder]

It may not have had anything to do with Shared Belief's performance today, but if I had a top horse in training I would never run them on a bull ring. Matter of fact, I'd only run them at Belmont if I could get away with it.

Back when Sportman's Park was open, it used to be a great angle to bet against the horses that made numerous starts and had front running wins when the races moved to Hawthorne or Arlington. Some sore legged mules coming off that bull ring.

[JustRalph]

Those prices........smell......

[charm city whizz]

Those prices........smell......

They sure do, this race will be the turning point on people wagering after the bell

[JustRalph]

X

[Grits]

Only a quick blurb from Mike Smith. (More to be added.)

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91352/shared-belief-eased-as-moreno-wins-ct-classic

"He seemed to slip in behind, wasn't comfortable," Smith told Gene Kershner of the Buffalo News. "The safe thing do at that point was to make sure we got back in one piece. You could just tell he was uncomfortable."

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm typically dismissive of "after the bell" theories, but wagering patterns/timing should be examined closely for that race.

[horses4courses]

What happened to SB today took place at the gate.
It had nothing to do with CT being a bullring, or a 3-turn race.
Could have happened anywhere.

Reports on twitter saying the vet says a slight swelling in a stifle.
The horse seems to be okay, and he walked in and out of the van.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

They sure do, this race will be the turning point on people wagering after the bell

Didn't wager on the race, so I have no fat in the say, but this whole post-wagering stuff is getting beyond old.

Do people really believe that some guys/connections are able to wager 5 to 10 seconds into a race? And if so, they are almost always more times than right?

SB wasn't going to break 1st. Everybody on the planet knew that, so 10 seconds later when they went into the first turn, you really believe people were able to cancel wagers 10 seconds into the race?

Do people honestly expect wagers to be instantaneous on tote boards and on their TV/monitor and via AWD outlets? A guy making a $10K wager in Cali via on line wagering 0 MTP, and you expect the number when the gates open to be 100% right?

By the way, I was the guy on the grassy knoll. I wasn't even alive, but I was there.

[nijinski]

Possible stifle injury per W Virginia State Vet reported on media .

Not life threatening !

[Some_One]

tri and ex seem light.

We go through this every time a big fav runs out in a big race. You can't assume the same odds of the win pool will correlate into the exotics. Usually the fav is always lower in the win pool then the exotic pool, we see it time after time (and there is always people complaining on here afterwards).

[DelMarJay]

Didn't wager on the race, so I have no fat in the say, but this whole post-wagering stuff is getting beyond old.

Do people really believe that some guys/connections are able to wager 5 to 10 seconds into a race? And if so, they are almost always more times than right?

SB wasn't going to break 1st. Everybody on the planet knew that, so 10 seconds later when they went into the first turn, you really believe people were able to cancel wagers 10 seconds into the race?

Do people honestly expect wagers to be instantaneous on tote boards and on their TV/monitor and via AWD outlets? A guy making a $10K wager in Cali via on line wagering 0 MTP, and you expect the number when the gates open to be 100% right?

By the way, I was the guy on the grassy knoll. I wasn't even alive, but I was there.

Wow, I can tell you're one of those peeps that think when tons of money are concerned, EVERYTHING is always on the up and up. Simply, every bet at every track can be cancelled at a tellers window. Some are 30 seconds after the bell, some even more. Look into it, I'll bet every dollar I've got. This allows tellers(who are responsible for losses) who hit wrong #'s on a bet to cancel a "wrong" bet after the bell rings. There's tons of other ways that past posting goes on but I'll just leave you with this one for now.

[Frost king]

The win pool totals for this race from the 5 minute point, until the final bell. Also the odds for Moreno and Shared Belief were as follows - 5min-$301,207 (1-9)/(11). 4min-$313,133 (1-9)/(11). 3min-$316,826(1-9)/(11). 2min-$322,820(1-9)/(11). 1min-$333,247(1-9)/(11). In these 5 money/odds updates, there was only $32K bet more into the pools. The 2nd last update, the money starts pouring in, The pool swells to $410,487. The odds start to rise on Shared Belief and plummet on Moreno(1-2/6). So the pool increases $77K. On the final update, the pool closes at $494,620(1-2/6). A further increase $84K. So in the last minute, $161K, is bet into the pools. It accounted for approximately 30% of the total win pool. If you were shopping for the best price, wouldn"t it make sense to wait until the last moment to take the plunge? If you were Shared Belief, like a good thing, it makes scents to plunge early, to scare off more money coming down on your choice, with the hope that everyone else is swayed to shop the board, and bring your price up. That is what they accomplished, but the end result was not there.

[horses4courses]

Some are 30 seconds after the bell, some even more. This allows tellers(who are responsible for losses) who hit wrong #'s on a bet to cancel a "wrong" bet after the bell rings. There's tons of other ways that past posting goes on but I'll just leave you with this one for now.

This is the type of statement that needs some proof to back it up.
I worked in race books and OTBs for close to 20 years.
Not once have I seen a ticket cancelled after the off.

Things must have changed a lot since I was in the business........ :rolleyes:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Wow, I can tell you're one of those peeps that think when tons of money are concerned, EVERYTHING is always on the up and up. Simply, every bet at every track can be cancelled at a tellers window. Some are 30 seconds after the bell, some even more. Look into it, I'll bet every dollar I've got. This allows tellers(who are responsible for losses) who hit wrong #'s on a bet to cancel a "wrong" bet after the bell rings. There's tons of other ways that past posting goes on but I'll just leave you with this one for now.

What exactly did Shared Belief and their connections get out of it, if the "fix" was on?

They were racing for $1.5 Million. Who paid them over $900K (60% of the purse, which is normal for the winner) for their horse to pull up lame? And then the rest of the field to line up and run in order?

There simply isn't enough in the pools for anybody to make that kind of investment to "fix" this race.

That means you are also calling Jerry Hollendorfer and Mike Smith cheaters, or at the very least, conveyors of riding along for something supposedly bigger than they are.

Yeah, I guess I'm that stupid.

[ultracapper]

Wonder if jay inadvertently was looking at the total show pool when he saw the $690K

[Stillriledup]

What exactly did Shared Belief and their connections get out of it, if the "fix" was on?

They were racing for $1.5 Million. Who paid them over $900K (60% of the purse, which is normal for the winner) for their horse to pull up lame? And then the rest of the field to line up and run in order?

There simply isn't enough in the pools for anybody to make that kind of investment to "fix" this race.

That means you are also calling Jerry Hollendorfer and Mike Smith cheaters, or at the very least, conveyors of riding along for something supposedly bigger than they are.

Yeah, I guess I'm that stupid.

That's not what he's saying.

[Frost king]

Exactly, have been playing for 30+ years, and have never run across anybody, that has been able to cancel a ticket after the bell. Have tried myself to do this, but have never been able. Have been locked out many times, but I have never been able to cancel my bet. Plus most ADW, will allow you to cancel small tickets with no questions asked. Bigger tickets after awhile, will be "Red Flagged" and they will look into the matter.

[Frost king]

Exactly, have been playing for 30+ years, and have never run across anybody, that has been able to cancel a ticket after the bell. Have tried myself to do this, but have never been able. Have been locked out many times, but I have never been able to cancel my bet. Plus most ADW, will allow you to cancel small tickets with no questions asked. Bigger tickets after awhile, will be "Red Flagged" and they will look into the matter.


I am referring to before the bell goes off!

[DelMarJay]

This is the type of statement that needs some proof to back it up.
I worked in race books and OTBs for close to 20 years.
Not once have I seen a ticket cancelled after the off.

Things must have changed a lot since I was in the business........ :rolleyes:

O.K., let's go through this now. You're at the track or OTB. You're the last better to call your bets before bell rings. You say "give me one thousand to show on the #4. Teller hits the bet before bell rings. Bell rings as you look at ticket and you see teller hit #3 instead of #4. You scream "I said #4, NOT #3. In the past EVERY betting jurisdiction had rules that allowed seller to put ticket back in to cancel bet. Every jurisdiction had different times allowed.

Now, this is why past posting has been misunderstood. It's more about Past Posting "CANCELLING." This is what changes the odds after the bell way more than "BETTING" the front runners or anything else that gives an edge. This has been going on for decades. My father was in a group that used this for years to gain a massive advantage. In the last few years, some states have tried to change this "hidden" scam, but there still has to be allowances so tellers don't have to eat a wrongly punched ticket. I've seen it with my own eyes at tons of tracks and for some reason so many people won't believe. Oh well!!!!!!!

[DeltaLover]

O.K., let's go through this now. You're at the track or OTB. You're the last better to call your bets before bell rings. You say "give me one thousand to show on the #4. Teller hits the bet before bell rings. Bell rings as you look at ticket and you see teller hit #3 instead of #4. You scream "I said #4, NOT #3. In the past EVERY betting jurisdiction had rules that allowed seller to put ticket back in to cancel bet. Every jurisdiction had different times allowed.

Now, this is why past posting has been misunderstood. It's more about Past Posting "CANCELLING." This is what changes the odds after the bell way more than "BETTING" the front runners or anything else that gives an edge. This has been going on for decades. My father was in a group that used this for years to gain a massive advantage. In the last few years, some states have tried to change this "hidden" scam, but there still has to be allowances so tellers don't have to eat a wrongly punched ticket. I've seen it with my own eyes at tons of tracks and for some reason so many people won't believe. Oh well!!!!!!!



Who is betting with a teller in our days ?? I have to guess, a very small percentage of the pool is going through a teller today..

[Lemon Drop Husker]

That's not what he's saying.

Well, I guess we need to see proof of cancelled tickets and/or winning tickets after post time.

Heck, even after the race is done.

Personally, I see it as making excuses for losing.

Sack up and handicap better. If not. Quit.

If it is so jaded and wrong, why do you keep playing if your best efforts will always be taken away? If you believe that, then essentially, you are telling me that you are fine with burning money out of your pocket if you keep playing.

[Relwob Owner]

They sure do, this race will be the turning point on people wagering after the bell

Turning point????? You think based on this race, things that are currently in place will all of a sudden change?

[VeryOldMan]

As a brief aside - anyone else worried about Down Town Allen, a million dollar winner like Shared Belief? Suspensory ligament damage, apparently. She walked into the van, from what I've read.

She's the type of horse that, in my opinion, has earned a wonderful post racing career. A million dollars in earnings. If this sport can't work for those horse to retire . . . .

[DelMarJay]

That's not what he's saying.

Thank you. Seriously. Never said anything about any jock, trainer, owner, or anybody associated with any horse running.

Ever wonder why so many big hits on winning tickets come from the same hub.

When I talked to Harper, and Baedaker(sp?), they both explained to me that no pick 6 could EVER be tampered with because the computer scanned constantly for this very event. I explained that I had friends in security IT that knew something was funky. They told me I was full of it and stop wasting their time. Of course, this was in the summer of 2002. People still asleep today. It's as if they take it personally that bad sh** goes on in this world.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Thank you. Seriously. Never said anything about any jock, trainer, owner, or anybody associated with any horse running.

Ever wonder why so many big hits on winning tickets come from the same hub.

When I talked to Harper, and Baedaker(sp?), they both explained to me that no pick 6 could EVER be tampered with because the computer scanned constantly for this very event. I explained that I had friends in security IT that knew something was funky. They told me I was full of it and stop wasting their time. Of course, this was in the summer of 2002. People still asleep today. It's as if they take it personally that bad sh** goes on in this world.

People will always look to cheat, steal, and pillage if given the option.

These clowns could have gotten away with a decade or more of winners if they weren't so greedy..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Breeders%27_Cup_betting_scandal

So, I guess the entire failure today is the tellers at Charlestown?

The restrictions and shut downs haven't changed since then. Damn. I feel so naive.:D

[Relwob Owner]

Enjoy the big race, Relwob. Now, wishing I'd made the drive. I really like this racehorse, not only his performance on the track but his near black color..which is unusual. He's stunning.

This is Mike Beer's break down of each entry. He likes SB and General ARod.

http://timeformusblog.com/2015/04/17/saturday-stakes-preview-shared-belief-looks-dominant-coming-into-charles-town-classic/


Wish you could have made the trip, as it would have been good to meet you in person. Really fun day up there and did well but was bummed that it came about the way that it did with SB not finishing. Hope he is OK.

[charm city whizz]

We need lamboguy and the Lexington speech!!!!!!!!!!

So strong

[Saratoga_Mike]

As a brief aside - anyone else worried about Down Town Allen, a million dollar winner like Shared Belief? Suspensory ligament damage, apparently. She walked into the van, from what I've read.

She's the type of horse that, in my opinion, has earned a wonderful post racing career. A million dollars in earnings. If this sport can't work for those horse to retire . . . .

I'm sure everyone hopes she's ok.

Coming into today's race, she had won eight in a row and worked a bullet two weeks ago. Why would they not race her (putting aside the benefit of hindsight)?

[horses4courses]

O.K., let's go through this now. You're at the track or OTB. You're the last better to call your bets before bell rings. You say "give me one thousand to show on the #4. Teller hits the bet before bell rings. Bell rings as you look at ticket and you see teller hit #3 instead of #4. You scream "I said #4, NOT #3. In the past EVERY betting jurisdiction had rules that allowed seller to put ticket back in to cancel bet. Every jurisdiction had different times allowed.

Now, this is why past posting has been misunderstood. It's more about Past Posting "CANCELLING." This is what changes the odds after the bell way more than "BETTING" the front runners or anything else that gives an edge. This has been going on for decades. My father was in a group that used this for years to gain a massive advantage. In the last few years, some states have tried to change this "hidden" scam, but there still has to be allowances so tellers don't have to eat a wrongly punched ticket. I've seen it with my own eyes at tons of tracks and for some reason so many people won't believe. Oh well!!!!!!!

A pari-mutuel ticket cannot be cancelled after the off.
Either the teller, or the customer, has to pay for a bad ticket.
In Nevada, race books have the added option of having the house
pay for the ticket - provided that the customer is well known,
and plays a lot at the premises.

If the customer is suspected of fraud, they risk arrest.
In a one-time situation, he/she will get the benefit of the doubt.
Any past history, and the customer will be introduced to a
gaming agent.

[VeryOldMan]

I'm sure everyone hopes she's ok.

Coming into today's race, she had won eight in a row and worked a bullet two weeks ago. Why would they not race her (putting aside the benefit of hindsight)?
Don't get me wrong - she was perfectly placed today. She is the queen of WV mares. Just hate to see these horses who have given so much to the sport (and earned so much for their owners) pulled up and possibly gravely injured. Same with Shared Belief. That's all.

[JustRalph]

A pari-mutuel ticket cannot be cancelled after the off.
Either the teller, or the customer, has to pay for a bad ticket.
In Nevada, race books have the added option of having the house
pay for the ticket - provided that the customer is well known,
and plays a lot at the premises.

If the customer is suspected of fraud, they risk arrest.
In a one-time situation, he/she will get the benefit of the doubt.
Any past history, and the customer will be introduced to a
gaming agent.

Wasn't it Mike Maloney that proved it was happening at Fairgrounds? Somebody dig that up.......I'll look

[horses4courses]

Wasn't it Mike Maloney that proved it was happening at Fairgrounds? Somebody dig that up.......I'll look

The Volponi PK6 was possible.
I should have qualified the statement.
Errors in the system can occur - nothing is 100% safe.

However, DMJ is talking like this is commonplace.
That's false - and there is no 30 second grace period to enable cancels.
Total fiction.

[Saratoga_Mike]

A pari-mutuel ticket cannot be cancelled after the off.
Either the teller, or the customer, has to pay for a bad ticket.
In Nevada, race books have the added option of having the house
pay for the ticket - provided that the customer is well known,
and plays a lot at the premises.

If the customer is suspected of fraud, they risk arrest.
In a one-time situation, he/she will get the benefit of the doubt.
Any past history, and the customer will be introduced to a
gaming agent.

How many years ago did the rule change? At Saratoga Harness, they always had a 5-second delay built in for cancellations (for the tellers in the case of mis-punched tickets). That was years ago. I use self-service machines now, so I have no idea what tracks do.

[Speed Figure]

Looks to me like Mike Smith knew SB was going to finish off the board. Looks like to never took to the track and was just to far back. Better to pull him up then run the full race and finish off the board.

[DelMarJay]

The Volponi PK6 was possible.
I should have qualified the statement.
Errors in the system can occur - nothing is 100% safe.

However, DMJ is talking like this is commonplace.
That's false - and there is no 30 second grace period to enable cancels.
Total fiction.


You crack me up. You say nothing is 100% yet categorically state that there's no grace period.

States have over the years "ASKED" for compliance but in actuality do not know for a fact whether it's ABSOLUTELY followed to a T. I have seen it happen hundreds of times within the last couple years at SPECIFIC OTB's and SPECIFIC live tellers at CERTAIN tracks, not EVERYWHERE or EVERYTIME. People a lot smarter than me have said "if money's involved, don't delude yourself that it's hard to steal it."

Also, I didn't mean to imply it's always for big numbers. Five or Ten bucks a race not caught multiplied by hundreds of races a day(simulcast races are the same as live races under our ) add up to millions.

[horses4courses]

How many years ago did the rule change? At Saratoga Harness, they always had a 5-second delay built in for cancellations (for the tellers in the case of mis-punched tickets). That was years ago. I use self-service machines now, so I have no idea what tracks do.

Harness racing might be different, I don't know the sport well enough.
I've never heard of a built-in cancel delay, though.
Far too big an advantage in sprint races - especially on speed favoring tracks.

Just hang out with your favorite teller, bet the speed, and if he doesn't
break well hit the cancel button. Talk about an edge.........

Video signals throughout the nation, and on ADWs, are not instantaneous.
There is, obviously, a slight delay. Betting should lock out when the gate
opens. I wish it closed at zero minutes to post, but that's another story.
In other words, betting should lock out just before you see the gate open
on the screen.

[horses4courses]

Better to pull him up then run the full race and finish off the board.

All Mike Smith was concerned about was the horse's safety.
He thought there was a possibility that he was injured.
Split second decisions.

[Saratoga_Mike]

H4C,

Let's say I bet $50 to win on the 6 at Saratoga (t'bred). The ticket prints out - it's the 7. I say to the teller, "I wanted the 6." Betting closes. The teller, again I'm on track at Saratoga, doesn't have a few seconds to cancel???

[horses4courses]

H4C,

Let's say I bet $50 to win on the 6 at Saratoga (t'bred). The ticket prints out - it's the 7. I say to the teller, "I wanted the 6." Betting closes. The teller, again I'm on track at Saratoga, doesn't have a few seconds to cancel???

Not if they're running.
Maybe someone can prove me wrong.

To my knowledge, once that gate opens, that's it.

Situations like you mention happen.
Thankfully, not a lot.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

H4C,

Let's say I bet $50 to win on the 6 at Saratoga (t'bred). The ticket prints out - it's the 7. I say to the teller, "I wanted the 6." Betting closes. The teller, again I'm on track at Saratoga, doesn't have a few seconds to cancel???

You then take it up with the Teller, and then likely management. Especially if your ticket would have won.

I have to believe we have all done that at least once or twice.

As always, honesty is always the best policy.

[horses4courses]

You crack me up. You say nothing is 100% yet categorically state that there's no grace period.

States have over the years "ASKED" for compliance but in actuality do not know for a fact whether it's ABSOLUTELY followed to a T. I have seen it happen hundreds of times within the last couple years at SPECIFIC OTB's and SPECIFIC live tellers at CERTAIN tracks, not EVERYWHERE or EVERYTIME. People a lot smarter than me have said "if money's involved, don't delude yourself that it's hard to steal it."

Also, I didn't mean to imply it's always for big numbers. Five or Ten bucks a race not caught multiplied by hundreds of races a day(simulcast races are the same as live races under our ) add up to millions.

You were the one who talked of a 30 second grace period.
You're way off base. There is no such thing.

System errors?
Possible, but one in a million.

[horses4courses]

I have seen it happen hundreds of times within the last couple years at SPECIFIC OTB's and SPECIFIC live tellers at CERTAIN tracks, not EVERYWHERE or EVERYTIME. People a lot smarter than me have said "if money's involved, don't delude yourself that it's hard to steal it."

Also, I didn't mean to imply it's always for big numbers. Five or Ten bucks a race not caught multiplied by hundreds of races a day(simulcast races are the same as live races under our ) add up to millions

Soooo.....there's a little untapped gold mine out there somewhere.
Uh huhhhh....... :rolleyes:

[ribjig]

> Do people really believe that some guys/connections are able to wager 5 to 10 seconds into a race?

Oaklawn Park 1989.
All my betting was DrZ place-show seconds before bell.
I often watched races inside on TV near betting windows.
Occasionally bell did not go off simultaneously with starting
gate opening, but never more than few seconds lag.

Just one time, well into season, a race was half run
& bell still hadn't sounded. I looked around in disbelief, no one at
betting windows, no excited tellers. :eek: :eek: :eek:
3/4th thru race bell sounded...
(I was not going to run to teller & demand bet after race started)
I told my few tellers about it afterwards, they were unaware...

Whether bell or starting gate shut down betting, I don't know...

[Lemon Drop Husker]

> Do people really believe that some guys/connections are able to wager 5 to 10 seconds into a race?

Oaklawn Park 1989.
All my betting was DrZ place-show seconds before bell.
I often watched races inside on TV near betting windows.
Occasionally bell did not go off simultaneously with starting
gate opening, but never more than few seconds lag.

Just one time, well into season, a race was half run
& bell still hadn't sounded. I looked around in disbelief, no one at
betting windows, no excited tellers. :eek: :eek: :eek:
3/4th thru race bell sounded...
(I was not going to run to teller & demand bet after race started)
I told my few tellers about it afterwards, they were unaware...

Whether bell or starting gate shut down betting, I don't know...

So the gates opening weren't a clue, but the magical bell that didn't sound quite right was..., right?

Let me guess. You had losing ticket that race?

[Stillriledup]

All Mike Smith was concerned about was the horse's safety.
He thought there was a possibility that he was injured.
Split second decisions.

But isn't his job to ride the race? since when did we entrust jocks to make decisions that trainer and vets should be making? If its not a catastrophic injury, you ride the horse around the track and leave the medical decisions to the trainer and vet. These guys are pinheads for a reason, we dont need them to be making medical diagnoSEES when they're supposed to be riding a race.

[Stillriledup]

H4C,

Let's say I bet $50 to win on the 6 at Saratoga (t'bred). The ticket prints out - it's the 7. I say to the teller, "I wanted the 6." Betting closes. The teller, again I'm on track at Saratoga, doesn't have a few seconds to cancel???

Supposedly, tellers have "7 second cancels".

[horses4courses]

Supposedly, tellers have "7 second cancels".

Supposedly?
That wouldn't be at SRU Downs, now would it?

[Stillriledup]

Supposedly?
That wouldn't be at SRU Downs, now would it?

We don't hire tellers who make mistakes. ;)

[Frost king]

Didn't the so-called "pin-head" JR want to scratch his mount in the BC Distaff, and he was over ruled by the Vets/Stewards? How did that fiasco turn out?

[horses4courses]

But isn't his job to ride the race? since when did we entrust jocks to make decisions that trainer and vets should be making? If its not a catastrophic injury, you ride the horse around the track and leave the medical decisions to the trainer and vet. These guys are pinheads for a reason, we dont need them to be making medical diagnoSEES when they're supposed to be riding a race.

This is over 2 weeks late for April Fools.
You can't be serious, can you?

[Stillriledup]

This is over 2 weeks late for April Fools.
You can't be serious, can you?

ekQ_Ja02gTY

[horses4courses]

We don't hire tellers who make mistakes. ;)

And, all your betting clientele never call out the wrong numbers, either.
I know, I know....... ;)

[Stillriledup]

Didn't the so-called "pin-head" JR want to scratch his mount in the BC Distaff, and he was over ruled by the Vets/Stewards? How did that fiasco turn out?

And then the pin head decided to "play vet" anyway even though the vets told him the horse was good to go.

[ultracapper]

If I owned a horse worth possibly millions of dollars and my jockey was riding and didn't think the horse felt right, and he kept riding him, I'd sack his ass so fast he wouldn't have one left. I want my million dollar baby to come home in one piece to fight another day. I don't give a damn about SRU's superfecta or any other damn thing. Me and my trainer put that pinhead on my million dollar horse because we trust him. He better do right by ME AND MY HORSE, AND ONLY ME AND MY HORSE.

Calling Smith out on this is ridiculous. Particularly now that we know SB may have been injured out of the gate.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If I owned a horse worth possibly millions of dollars and my jockey was riding and didn't think the horse felt right, and he kept riding him, I'd sack his ass so fast he wouldn't have one left. I want my million dollar baby to come home in one piece to fight another day. I don't give a damn about SRU's superfecta or any other damn thing. Me and my trainer put that pinhead on my million dollar horse because we trust him. He better do right by ME AND MY HORSE, AND ONLY ME AND MY HORSE.

Calling Smith out on this is ridiculous. Particularly now that we know SB may have been injured out of the gate.

Agreed, one of SRU's dumber posts - I suspect he's just looking for a reaction.

[horses4courses]

If I owned a horse worth possibly millions of dollars and my jockey was riding and didn't think the horse felt right, and he kept riding him, I'd sack his ass so fast he wouldn't have one left. I want my million dollar baby to come home in one piece to fight another day. I don't give a damn about SRU's superfecta or any other damn thing. Me and my trainer put that pinhead on my million dollar horse because we trust him. He better do right by ME AND MY HORSE, AND ONLY ME AND MY HORSE.

Calling Smith out on this is ridiculous. Particularly now that we know SB may have been injured out of the gate.

Right on. :ThmbUp:

The swelling discovered by the WV vet after the race
could have deteriorated had they continued.
Great call by Mike Smith.

Naturally, I wished I had profited from the bridge jumping.
I'll win some money tomorrow. ;)

[PaceMasterT]

If I owned a horse worth possibly millions of dollars and my jockey was riding and didn't think the horse felt right, and he kept riding him, I'd sack his ass so fast he wouldn't have one left. I want my million dollar baby to come home in one piece to fight another day. I don't give a damn about SRU's superfecta or any other damn thing. Me and my trainer put that pinhead on my million dollar horse because we trust him. He better do right by ME AND MY HORSE, AND ONLY ME AND MY HORSE.

Calling Smith out on this is ridiculous. Particularly now that we know SB may have been injured out of the gate.

These guys are professionals and Mike Smith is at the top of the jockey colony, like him or not. They know when a horse isn't running right. It might be minor, it might be major, but they definitely know when something is "off". When anything like this happens, I now think of Barbaro and Prado. It is great when these guys think of these horse as more than just a paycheck.

[ultracapper]

I suspect you're right about that SarMike. I placed a bet today and got beat by the other horse I liked. I'm a prime target to take the bait right now.

[horses4courses]

What do you think was going through his mind just then?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CC68IxlVIAIbU7-.jpg

[Lemon Drop Husker]

These guys are professionals and Mike Smith is at the top of the jockey colony, like him or not. They know when a horse isn't running right. It might be minor, it might be major, but they definitely know when something is "off". When anything like this happens, I now think of Barbaro and Prado. It is great when these guys think of these horse as more than just a paycheck.

Bingo.

These horses aren't machines. And as we all know, they can break down. Even at the most inopportune of times.

Mike Smith is arguably the best jockey in the country right now.

Mike isn't going to shut a horse down for no reason in a $1.5M dollar race for craps and giggles.

I just hope Shared Belief comes out of this OK. Would really suck if he is out for a lengthy time.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

If I owned a horse worth possibly millions of dollars and my jockey was riding and didn't think the horse felt right, and he kept riding him, I'd sack his ass so fast he wouldn't have one left. I want my million dollar baby to come home in one piece to fight another day. I don't give a damn about SRU's superfecta or any other damn thing. Me and my trainer put that pinhead on my million dollar horse because we trust him. He better do right by ME AND MY HORSE, AND ONLY ME AND MY HORSE.

Calling Smith out on this is ridiculous. Particularly now that we know SB may have been injured out of the gate.

I think this post right here should be pinned to the top of this board for like...., forever.

[Stillriledup]

Agreed, one of SRU's dumber posts - I suspect he's just looking for a reaction.

He didn't quote my post, so, why would you think he's talking to me? Seems like he's just making his own point, why bring me into it?

[Tall One]

He didn't quote my post, so, why would you think he's talking to me? Seems like he's just making his own point, why bring me into it?



:D ...Pretty sure Ultra's post was directed towards you, sru.

[ultracapper]

Hahaha. Everybody has their purpose on this board. SRU fills his well. What was it Reggie said 40 years ago? I'm the stick that stirs the drink.

[Stillriledup]

:D ...Pretty sure Ultra's post was directed towards you, sru.

But i got Mike on a technicality. So, i win. :D

As far as the original thoughts of U Capper, i can respect his feeling that if he owned the horse he could care less about the bettors just as im sure he can respect me if i said, as a bettor, i only care about cashing my bet.

[Dark Horse]

What do you think was going through his mind just then?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CC68IxlVIAIbU7-.jpg

"Why does this always happen to me in the big stakes races, and never in the AOC or MSW's?"

[raybo]

SB got a bad start, "slipped", then got into stride and looked fine, started gaining on the field. Then we lose him from the video, and Mike says that on the 2nd turn SB didn't respond to urging and Mike decided to ease him.

Sounds like a combination of poor start and not ready to go 3 turns.

Regarding anything going on with the drop in odds on Moreno, did anyone really expect him to have final odds ABOVE 7/1? I certainly didn't. Late money, not bet after betting was closed, merely corrected the odds to where they should have been. There are some really smart people out there with with software having the ability to recognize overlays and bet them at the last possible moment. I think this was the case here. You have a horse at 1/9, and the 2nd best horse in the race is at double digit odds? Come one guys, that 2nd best horse is going to get bet hard at the last moment almost every time!

Get over it, you thought SB was unbeatable so you bet him, or you were rooting for him to slaughter the field, because YOU thought he was the "second coming" or something. NO horse is guaranteed to win, ANY race, and a horse like Moreno, who had the ability to run with SB, is not going to go off at double digit odds in a field like this.

Nothing wrong with the race, just wasn't SB's day. It happens!

[taxicab]

But isn't his job to ride the race? since when did we entrust jocks to make decisions that trainer and vets should be making? If its not a catastrophic injury, you ride the horse around the track and leave the medical decisions to the trainer and vet. These guys are pinheads for a reason, we dont need them to be making medical diagnoSEES when they're supposed to be riding a race.


JT Lundy just called.
He says he has some work for you...

[raybo]

And then the pin head decided to "play vet" anyway even though the vets told him the horse was good to go.

Wow! You continue to amaze me (and not necessarily in a good way). I think Mike Smith has the qualifications, by now, considering his proven ability as a top jockey, to ease a horse, especially a horse that has high earning potential like SB, when he feels that something is not right with the horse. As an owner of such a horse, I would certainly give him my permission to do exactly that.

[burnsy]

I don't think it took rocket science to figure out something was wrong. I think most of the audience and the track announcer figured that out too, long before the horse got eased. What's Mike Smith supposed to do? When Moreno put that other horse away and had the lead to himself and SB was losing ground.........on everyone except one horse, most people had to think something was amiss. I was at home watching alone and was pretty sure there were problems, quite a while before he eased. Just like I said after the last race between Moreno and SB. Without SB around Moreno can man handle many of these fields. He did all the "dirty work" and still ran second last time so fate "racing luck" paid him back yesterday. People that would risk that kind of money, for 10 cents on the dollar, in a freakin horse race, I don't know...... :rolleyes: Then there's the ones in "total shock". They either don't know horse racing, have not been playing horses long or have terrible memories...... ;) There is a prime example why its a good idea to avoid 1-9 shots........and to throw a little something, something into the show pool...... :)

[Dark Horse]

Wow! You continue to amaze me (and not necessarily in a good way). I think Mike Smith has the qualifications, by now, considering his proven ability as a top jockey, to ease a horse, especially a horse that has high earning potential like SB, when he feels that something is not right with the horse. As an owner of such a horse, I would certainly give him my permission to do exactly that.

Even so, it would be nice to have the numbers out there on how often Smith does this versus someone like Gary Stevens. Have you noticed a higher breakdown rate for Stevens? The numbers tell the story. It's not necessarily Smith being more in tune with the horse. If he has a much higher ease rate, combined with no improvement in breakdown rate, much of it could be in his own head.

[Dark Horse]

Never mind. I just realized we've already had this discussion about Smith some time ago. It's not going to change anyway. I haven't bet on a big favorite with Smith on board in forever, plus it creates value. It must be getting late for me to make this case. Keep doing what you're doing Mikey.

[raybo]

Ok, if you're a trainer or owner, and if you don't trust Mike to take care of your horse, then don't put him on it. The vet did confirm that there was swelling, after he had been eased. I'd say Mike did the right thing, or maybe he should have just kept going, surely nothing more serious would have happened, and gosh he may have even finished the race, in last place. Would that have made you feel better?

[horses4courses]

From Jim Rome last night:

Jim Rome ‏@jimrome 14h14 hours ago
Shared Belief is up and walking around in the barn. He is off in his behind. Vets have been w/ him. Does not appear to be life threatening.

I have a feeling that it could have been life threatening had MS persevered.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

"Why does this always happen to me in the big stakes races, and never in the AOC or MSW's?"

Hard for me to believe that people are actually criticizing Mike Smith as a potentially terrible jockey.

American Classics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Classic_Races) wins:
Preakness Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preakness_Stakes) (1993)
Kentucky Derby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Derby) (2005)
Belmont Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmont_Stakes) (2010, 2013)
Kentucky Oaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Oaks) (2013)

Breeders' Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup) wins
Breeders' Cup Mile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Mile) (1992, 1993)
Breeders' Cup Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Sprint) (1994, 2011)
Breeders' Cup Turf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Turf) (1994)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile) (1995, 2002)
Breeders' Cup Distaff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Distaff) (1995, 1997, 2002, 2008, 2012)
Breeders' Cup Classic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Classic) (1997, 2009, 2011)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile_Fillies) (2008)
Breeders' Cup Turf Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Turf_Sprint) (2012, 2013)
Breeders' Cup Marathon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Marathon) (2013)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile_Turf) (2013)
Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Filly_%26_Mare_Sprint) (2014)

That is a lot of horses he should have just pulled up.

[raybo]

Maybe DH is jinxing Mike every time he bets him? Nah, a 1/9 is guaranteed to run his race every time and never need easing, they're super horses who could never get hurt or have a bad day.

On second thought, DH, you're probably right, he probably didn't make a good decision to easy SB, shoulda just whipped the crap out of him.

[DeltaLover]

I am a little confused about the direction of the conversation in this thread. I have skimmed through the previous pages but still do not understand what some of us try to say here.. Is anyone accusing Mike Smith for easing SB?

Something like this, is at least hilarious IMHO...


A great part of the responsibility of a jockey, is to protect his horse and make the right judgment calls during the course, minimizing the chances for an injury or something worse..

One of the reasons, someone will choose a top of the line jockey, like MS, for his horse, is his experience to make the right decision in a slit of a second and the confidence to trust his instinct and go ahead and 'easy' even a huge favorite which attracts the interest of all the horse goers..

If anything, we need to congratulate the veteran expert and admire his skill and promote his as an example for the next generations of horsemen and jockeys...

[MJC922]

IMO problems may surface due to spacing (rest interval) after the BC when you need that exclamation point to peak out the horse's form at years end and then you don't take them out of the game for 12-16 weeks immediately afterward, (personal opinion here) you almost have to do this if you're going to start entering them every 4 or 5 weeks for a succession of races otherwise they don't seem to hold up for very long.

[Robert Fischer]

I am a little confused about the direction of the conversation in this thread. I have skimmed through the previous pages but still do not understand what some of us try to say here.. Is anyone accusing Mike Smith for easing SB?

Something like this, is at least hilarious IMHO...


A great part of the responsibility of a jockey, is to protect his horse and make the right judgment calls during the course, minimizing the chances for an injury or something worse..

One of the reasons, someone will choose a top of the line jockey, like MS, for his horse, is his experience to make the right decision in a slit of a second and the confidence to trust his instinct and go ahead and 'easy' even a huge favorite which attracts the interest of all the horse goers..

If anything, we need to congratulate the veteran expert and admire his skill and promote his as an example for the next generations of horsemen and jockeys...

Irrational behavior and emotion are what makes markets interesting.

[burnsy]

I wasn't criticizing Mike Smith at all. I was actually asking the people that were........"What is Mike Smith supposed to do?" Put the horse on his back and win?????LOL. Or does the jockey control a horse getting hurt? I don't get it. My only criticism of Mike Smith is he likes to go wide too much. The jocks first responsibility is that he, his peers and the horses get back safe, nothing comes before that, not your crummy bet at 1-9,.....he did what he had to do......PERIOD.

My main criticism is people that hammered that horse or any horse like that in a horse race. It takes a lot of loot at 10 cents on the dollar to make back whatever they put in..........but a few bucks to show where you might get 30 cents or be laughing Sunday morning.

This is where gambling is gambling, Kentucky can't lose........Shared Belief can't lose....it happened in less than two weeks time. I love to read (and hear) about who "can't lose", its pretty funny and profitable too.

[Si2see]

On topic:

The only 3 horses I saw leave there ponies in the warm up's were the top 3 finishers. ( street babe went into a strong gallop with the pony for about 10-15 strides ) Shared Belief , very lack luster in warm ups IMO.

After touting Moreno all week I did not play the correct ticket with him on top. I also did not play the correct tickets on the 2 horses I liked. I played $1 ex 59/all and $10 win on the 5 and 9. Like a dummy I left a lot of money on the table, but in all honesty I deserved to lose betting like that ( good handicapping bad betting )


I can tell you that Mike Smith was devastated after the race. He was literally crying heavily in the jocks room he was so upset both for the horse and the outcome I would imagine.


Off topic:

Charles town self service machines do not allow you to cancel wagers. I played a daily double at keeneland with a wrong number and the tellers themselves wouldn't change it, so I played another one ( and lost on both tickets :lol: )
I highly doubt any of the cancelling of tickets came from the Charles Town tellers like someone posted earlier.

Jason

[Saratoga_Mike]

He didn't quote my post, so, why would you think he's talking to me? Seems like he's just making his own point, why bring me into it?

Feigning ignorance - chapter 5 in your playbook, no?

[DelMarJay]

Off topic:

Charles town self service machines do not allow you to cancel wagers. I played a daily double at keeneland with a wrong number and the tellers themselves wouldn't change it, so I played another one ( and lost on both tickets :lol: )
I highly doubt any of the cancelling of tickets came from the Charles Town tellers like someone posted earlier.

Jason[/QUOTE]


Actually on topic since I posted the thread and never said anything about a Charles Town teller. Other readers have completely misread what I've written and took the topic "off the rails." Read the other thread "WEIRD SHOW BETTING for a great on-topic discussion.

[castaway01]

Actually on topic since I posted the thread and never said anything about a Charles Town teller. Other readers have completely misread what I've written and took the topic "off the rails." Read the other thread "WEIRD SHOW BETTING for a great on-topic discussion.

Has anyone shown the pools minute-by-minute yet to show that money came out? The horse went off at 1-9 and there was a huge minus show pool---if people knew something was wrong with the horse they sure as hell didn't bet like they did. Seems like a weird time to scream conspiracy (I know that SRU will scream conspiracy every time but he's head troll in charge here...do we need more?).

[Stillriledup]

Ok, if you're a trainer or owner, and if you don't trust Mike to take care of your horse, then don't put him on it. The vet did confirm that there was swelling, after he had been eased. I'd say Mike did the right thing, or maybe he should have just kept going, surely nothing more serious would have happened, and gosh he may have even finished the race, in last place. Would that have made you feel better?

Mike Smith is an elite rider who picks and chooses his mounts. He doesn't accept just any old mount, he rides the highest class horses at the best tracks and he doesn't ride in every race, he's picking and choosing horses who travel smoothly and soundly, he's HAND PICKING his mounts.
This means, he should have the least amount of pull ups, nobody is riding a lower percentage of mounts that are elite horses from top trainers at great tracks than Smith. Nobody. Maybe Gary Stevens, but Smith is in a small and select club who only rides 'the best'

Does Smith have the least amount of pullups when you factor in the amount of mounts he accepts?

Also, do you know how many horses had a worse situation than SB and finished the race? Not every horse who's 'hurting' gets pulled up, do you think starving jocks at low rung tracks are going to pull up a horse who "Seems sore"? No, they ride that horse all the way no matter what.....and here you have Smith riding cadillacs and ferraris and making decisions on whether or not he wants to ride all the way to the wire.

Smith rode a horse called Winning Rhythm last year and pulled the horse up for no reason, that horse came back a month later at Del mar, with Smith aboard, and crushed the field with giant strides going away paying 11 bucks. The trainer (gallagher i think) was interviewed in the paddock before she won and was asked about the pullup and said that mike was 'just being cautious' but essentially said there was nothing wrong with the horse.

If you're an owner, you love smith, he will just stop riding your horse if he feels like it and won't ever have any retribution from the judges, he can pull up 100 horses in a row and they won't bat an eye, he will just say the horse felt 'off' and they'll buy it....so, as an owner, he's the guy you want.

[Some_One]

Has anyone shown the pools minute-by-minute yet to show that money came out? The horse went off at 1-9 and there was a huge minus show pool---if people knew something was wrong with the horse they sure as hell didn't bet like they did. Seems like a weird time to scream conspiracy (I know that SRU will scream conspiracy every time but he's head troll in charge here...do we need more?).

HPI doesn't have intervals for Place or Show pools, but in the win pool there was almost no movement from the listed 0 MTP odds (the last cycle before the off) and the final odds, just General A Rod going from 7s to 6s I believe.

[Inner Dirt]

[QUOTE=DelMarJay]Off topic:

Charles town self service machines do not allow you to cancel wagers. I played a daily double at keeneland with a wrong number and the tellers themselves wouldn't change it, so I played another one ( and lost on both tickets :lol: )
I highly doubt any of the cancelling of tickets came from the Charles Town tellers like someone posted earlier.
]

I tried to cancel a $500 win wager on TVG once and it said I had to call in. Also anytime I tried to cancel a wager of that amount at an OTB or the live racing track a supervisor had to approve, considering that I know I could never cancel a wager at the last second.

[chadk66]

From Jim Rome last night:



I have a feeling that it could have been life threatening had MS persevered.:ThmbUp: I find it so ironic people on this board are so vocal against drugs in the race horse industry yet seem to think it's perfectly fine to break a horse down trying to get it to win when the rider knows there is a problem. That speaks volumes about what the real story on here is.

[chadk66]

SB got a bad start, "slipped", then got into stride and looked fine, started gaining on the field. Then we lose him from the video, and Mike says that on the 2nd turn SB didn't respond to urging and Mike decided to ease him.

Sounds like a combination of poor start and not ready to go 3 turns.

Regarding anything going on with the drop in odds on Moreno, did anyone really expect him to have final odds ABOVE 7/1? I certainly didn't. Late money, not bet after betting was closed, merely corrected the odds to where they should have been. There are some really smart people out there with with software having the ability to recognize overlays and bet them at the last possible moment. I think this was the case here. You have a horse at 1/9, and the 2nd best horse in the race is at double digit odds? Come one guys, that 2nd best horse is going to get bet hard at the last moment almost every time!

Get over it, you thought SB was unbeatable so you bet him, or you were rooting for him to slaughter the field, because YOU thought he was the "second coming" or something. NO horse is guaranteed to win, ANY race, and a horse like Moreno, who had the ability to run with SB, is not going to go off at double digit odds in a field like this.

Nothing wrong with the race, just wasn't SB's day. It happens!you honestly think he pulled him up because he got a bad start and didn't want to go three turns. no way in hell you kept a straight face when you typed that.

[Saratoga_Mike]

:ThmbUp: I find it so ironic people on this board are so vocal against drugs in the race horse industry yet seem to think it's perfectly fine to break a horse down trying to get it to win when the rider knows there is a problem. That speaks volumes about what the real story on here is.

Agreed. It's disturbing.

[horses4courses]

Mike Smith is an elite rider who picks and chooses his mounts. He doesn't accept just any old mount, he rides the highest class horses at the best tracks and he doesn't ride in every race, he's picking and choosing horses who travel smoothly and soundly, he's HAND PICKING his mounts.
This means, he should have the least amount of pull ups, nobody is riding a lower percentage of mounts that are elite horses from top trainers at great tracks than Smith. Nobody. Maybe Gary Stevens, but Smith is in a small and select club who only rides 'the best'

Does Smith have the least amount of pullups when you factor in the amount of mounts he accepts?

Also, do you know how many horses had a worse situation than SB and finished the race? Not every horse who's 'hurting' gets pulled up, do you think starving jocks at low rung tracks are going to pull up a horse who "Seems sore"? No, they ride that horse all the way no matter what.....and here you have Smith riding cadillacs and ferraris and making decisions on whether or not he wants to ride all the way to the wire.

Smith rode a horse called Winning Rhythm last year and pulled the horse up for no reason, that horse came back a month later at Del mar, with Smith aboard, and crushed the field with giant strides going away paying 11 bucks. The trainer (gallagher i think) was interviewed in the paddock before she won and was asked about the pullup and said that mike was 'just being cautious' but essentially said there was nothing wrong with the horse.

If you're an owner, you love smith, he will just stop riding your horse if he feels like it and won't ever have any retribution from the judges, he can pull up 100 horses in a row and they won't bat an eye, he will just say the horse felt 'off' and they'll buy it....so, as an owner, he's the guy you want.

Sounds like you have uncovered a terrific betting angle for yourself.
Just load up on supers and trifectas when Smith is riding.
He's an automatic throw out, after all, because he's going to pull up.
You're only drawback here is that wheelbarrow you will need to
carry out all the cash you're going to win at your local betting facility. :lol:

Seriously, you need to get a life.

[codysakic]

CT had a pretty nice All Stakes Pick 4 there in races 9-12. I wonder how many people singled SB? I would have to imagine at least 60 percent. I was going to play a ticket and single but as luck would have it I couldn't make it to the track. I had the 1st 3 legs won.

But my single in the 12th on SB would have done me in. Even if I were to have gone 2 deep in that race, Moreno wouldn't have been my 2nd choice. It would have been Street Babe.

:D :D

[raybo]

Mike Smith is an elite rider who picks and chooses his mounts. He doesn't accept just any old mount, he rides the highest class horses at the best tracks and he doesn't ride in every race, he's picking and choosing horses who travel smoothly and soundly, he's HAND PICKING his mounts.
This means, he should have the least amount of pull ups, nobody is riding a lower percentage of mounts that are elite horses from top trainers at great tracks than Smith. Nobody. Maybe Gary Stevens, but Smith is in a small and select club who only rides 'the best'

Does Smith have the least amount of pullups when you factor in the amount of mounts he accepts?

Also, do you know how many horses had a worse situation than SB and finished the race? Not every horse who's 'hurting' gets pulled up, do you think starving jocks at low rung tracks are going to pull up a horse who "Seems sore"? No, they ride that horse all the way no matter what.....and here you have Smith riding cadillacs and ferraris and making decisions on whether or not he wants to ride all the way to the wire.

Smith rode a horse called Winning Rhythm last year and pulled the horse up for no reason, that horse came back a month later at Del mar, with Smith aboard, and crushed the field with giant strides going away paying 11 bucks. The trainer (gallagher i think) was interviewed in the paddock before she won and was asked about the pullup and said that mike was 'just being cautious' but essentially said there was nothing wrong with the horse.

If you're an owner, you love smith, he will just stop riding your horse if he feels like it and won't ever have any retribution from the judges, he can pull up 100 horses in a row and they won't bat an eye, he will just say the horse felt 'off' and they'll buy it....so, as an owner, he's the guy you want.

Sounds like you have a serious negative bias towards Mike. You zero in on the horses he pulls up but forget all the ones he doesn't. This tells me you do not have the ability to make those kinds of assessments of him. You're only seeing what you want to see. There is not an unbiased cell in your body when it comes to your rants, on any subject. But, if others here like your antics, or find them entertaining, then I guess you should just keep spouting that kind of crap. I'll just try harder to ignore them. Peace - out!

[raybo]

you honestly think he pulled him up because he got a bad start and didn't want to go three turns. no way in hell you kept a straight face when you typed that.

No, I think he pulled up because he knew something wasn't right with the horse. I didn't mean that he pulled up because he was so far behind, he pulled up rather than do more harm to the horse than what has already been done.

[Inner Dirt]

No, I think he pulled up because he knew something wasn't right with the horse. I didn't mean that he pulled up because he was so far behind, he pulled up rather than do more harm to the horse than what has already been done.

I wonder if anyone has done a study on DNFs that did not involve a break down. I would bet money the more valuable the horse the more often they are pulled up at the slightest sign of distress. That is just human nature, the more valuable something is the more protective you are of it.

[PaceAdvantage]

:ThmbUp: I find it so ironic people on this board are so vocal against drugs in the race horse industry yet seem to think it's perfectly fine to break a horse down trying to get it to win when the rider knows there is a problem. That speaks volumes about what the real story on here is.You almost make it sound like official board position, when in fact you know it's not a widely held belief...

Might want to revise going forward...

[Saratoga_Mike]

You almost make it sound like official board position, when in fact you know it's not a widely held belief...

Might want to revise going forward...

Good point - it's mainly one vocal poster who I suspect doesn't even believe what he's saying

[Stillriledup]

Sounds like you have a serious negative bias towards Mike. You zero in on the horses he pulls up but forget all the ones he doesn't. This tells me you do not have the ability to make those kinds of assessments of him. You're only seeing what you want to see. There is not an unbiased cell in your body when it comes to your rants, on any subject. But, if others here like your antics, or find them entertaining, then I guess you should just keep spouting that kind of crap. I'll just try harder to ignore them. Peace - out!
I don't have any biases, its funny how you bias ME up in this post, saying things that have nothing at all to do with this thread or subject....you're better than this drivel. You know what Vic says, if Drivel were dollars, you'd be Trump.

[raybo]

I don't have any biases, its funny how you bias ME up in this post, saying things that have nothing at all to do with this thread or subject....you're better than this drivel. You know what Vic says, if Drivel were dollars, you'd be Trump.

I'll put my supposed biases up against yours any day. And, my bi-ching and complaining against yours any day, also. You have an almost perfect screen name by the way, "StillRiledUp", but there is room for improvement, maybe "AlwaysRiledUp"?

You say I'm better than this drivel? Thanks! I'm not sure you're better than yours though. I haven't seen much from you, on the other side of the coin, from which to make a comparison. :lol:

[VeryOldMan]

I don't have any biases, its funny how you bias ME up in this post, saying things that have nothing at all to do with this thread or subject....you're better than this drivel. You know what Vic says, if Drivel were dollars, you'd be Trump.

Wait, what? Drivel, dollars, stones, glass houses, etc.

Does anyone else on this board think Mike Smith somehow stiffed SB or didn't do what he thought was in the best interest of the horse? Really. Correct me if I'm wrong - I had nothing at stake on this card and thought it looked like he was trying to keep the horse from a catastrophic situation.

Watched the race and the previous one where local heroine Down Town Allen (who I have followed for years) was pulled up too - seemed to me like jockeys trying to save millionaire horses and doing the right thing.

[Tall One]

No, I think he pulled up because he knew something wasn't right with the horse. I didn't mean that he pulled up because he was so far behind, he pulled up rather than do more harm to the horse than what has already been done.



This is correct.

We've all seen enough situations out there that weren't avoidable, and I'm glad Mike took the preemptive measures. SB's race was over when the gates opened. Smith was lucky to steady his horse, let alone not get dumped; which would not have been good.

[Stillriledup]

I'll put my supposed biases up against yours any day. And, my bi-ching and complaining against yours any day, also. You have an almost perfect screen name by the way, "StillRiledUp", but there is room for improvement, maybe "AlwaysRiledUp"?

You say I'm better than this drivel? Thanks! I'm not sure you're better than yours though. I haven't seen much from you, on the other side of the coin, from which to make a comparison. :lol:

I would post a youtube video to you, but i'm going to be a little more 'selective' in that regard. As far as who has biases, i'm not sure, but you didn't need to rant against ME when you could have just stuck to the topic. Maybe next time.

[Stillriledup]

Wait, what? Drivel, dollars, stones, glass houses, etc.

Does anyone else on this board think Mike Smith somehow stiffed SB or didn't do what he thought was in the best interest of the horse? Really. Correct me if I'm wrong - I had nothing at stake on this card and thought it looked like he was trying to keep the horse from a catastrophic situation.

Watched the race and the previous one where local heroine Down Town Allen (who I have followed for years) was pulled up too - seemed to me like jockeys trying to save millionaire horses and doing the right thing.

Its not about that.

If you had a master list of every jock who has accepted a mount in America since the inception of horse racing, and then listed how many times each jock pulled up a horse, i would imagine that Smith should be at the top of the list in least amount of horses pulled up per ratio of mounts, he accepts fewer mounts than jocks who ride regularly and he accepts "hand picked" mounts, he rides for elite trainers and rides great horses at A tracks almost all the time, he's not riding 3k claimers at Suffolk, so, knowing that, he only accepts mounts on the smoothest traveling soundest runners, he should have less "pull ups" than almost everyone.

[horses4courses]

Its not about that.

If you had a master list of every jock who has accepted a mount in America since the inception of horse racing, and then listed how many times each jock pulled up a horse, i would imagine that Smith should be at the top of the list in least amount of horses pulled up per ratio of mounts, he accepts fewer mounts than jocks who ride regularly and he accepts "hand picked" mounts, he rides for elite trainers and rides great horses at A tracks almost all the time, he's not riding 3k claimers at Suffolk, so, knowing that, he only accepts mounts on the smoothest traveling soundest runners, he should have less "pull ups" than almost everyone.

Let's assume Smith is top of that list.

I guess it just comes down to whether you think he
is showing necessary care and concern for the horses,
or that you think he is overreacting.

I know what I think, and I don't mind tearing up
the occasional ticket because of it.

[Robert Fischer]

It works both ways. Top horses are treated better, and most of their owners would prefer they be wrapped up when a Mike Smith thinks they feel 'off' and were out of contention, than have some 'hungrier' jock push them hard to try to hit the board for some show bet...

[Stillriledup]

It works both ways. Top horses are treated better, and most of their owners would prefer they be wrapped up when a Mike Smith thinks they feel 'off' and were out of contention, than have some 'hungrier' jock push them hard to try to hit the board for some show bet...

This is exactly right. Bettors bet on bets, not horses....so to them, there's no difference between a 3k claimer at suffolk and a Grade 1 winner, the money is equally as green, bettors don't get paid more money if the horse they bet on is worth millions.

[Stillriledup]

Let's assume Smith is top of that list.

I guess it just comes down to whether you think he
is showing necessary care and concern for the horses,
or that you think he is overreacting.

I know what I think, and I don't mind tearing up
the occasional ticket because of it.

You know it probably comes down to this. If the horse you're riding is worth millions, ANY little "bump in the night" might get the horse pulled up. If you are riding a 3k claimer at Suffolk and you don't know how you're going to make your next rent payment, you might just keep riding. Part of the handicapping process to know your horse, know your jock, know your situation.

[VeryOldMan]

Let's assume Smith is top of that list.

I guess it just comes down to whether you think he
is showing necessary care and concern for the horses,
or that you think he is overreacting.

I know what I think, and I don't mind tearing up
the occasional ticket because of it.

This.

Plus - even accepting the premise, which I don't necessarily - there is a selection bias issue - if I'm an owner of a top horse that might be fragile/valuable and know that Smith takes care of horses . . . .

[horses4courses]

Recent comments from owner Jim Rome:

Jim Rome ‏@jimrome 16m16 minutes ago
A heartfelt thank you to Mike Smith for protecting Shared Belief. His quick reaction is a big reason SB is doing as well as he is right now.

Jim Rome ‏@jimrome 19m19 minutes ago
Vets are recommending stall rest for Shared Belief and his prognosis is excellent!

[Relwob Owner]

Recent comments from owner Jim Rome:


Thanks for that update. I'm sure some more absurd anti-Smith drivel will come from the same source though, with hopes of getting more reactions.

Getting back to the race, when watching the race again, I noticed that Imperative ran into some trouble in the backstretch that may have cost him the victory. Seems to like CT.

[GMB@BP]

Looks to me like Mike Smith knew SB was going to finish off the board. Looks like to never took to the track and was just to far back. Better to pull him up then run the full race and finish off the board.

solid call

[GMB@BP]

All Mike Smith was concerned about was the horse's safety.
He thought there was a possibility that he was injured.
Split second decisions.

some riders have added value I guess, well see how this plays out in the next few years.

[GMB@BP]

But isn't his job to ride the race? since when did we entrust jocks to make decisions that trainer and vets should be making? If its not a catastrophic injury, you ride the horse around the track and leave the medical decisions to the trainer and vet. These guys are pinheads for a reason, we dont need them to be making medical diagnoSEES when they're supposed to be riding a race.

when your this wrong you have to be quoted.....

greatest call ever

[Stillriledup]

when your this wrong you have to be quoted.....

greatest call ever

Maybe when i get a sore knee i'l go to Mike Smith's gym so he can diagnose me. :D

[GMB@BP]

Maybe when i get a sore knee i'l go to Mike Smith's gym so he can diagnose me. :D


your not worth saving :p

[Stillriledup]

your not worth saving :p
:lol:

You got me! Awesome.

[davew]

some riders have added value I guess, well see how this plays out in the next few years.



Shared Belief will win again, and Mike will be on board. Solid call with early pace and tight corners, there was no way Shared Belief could pass everybody.

I feel a little bad for the person/people who dumped half a million to show on him, except I got some of it.

[taxicab]

Maybe when i get a sore knee i'l go to Mike Smith's gym so he can diagnose me. :D

Just for you.
From Bloodhorse:

It turns out Mike Smith's intuition was right.

The Hall of Fame jockey likely saved multiple grade I winner Shared Belief from further injury by pulling him up in the Charles Town Classic (gr. II) April 18, as diagnostic work performed in the following days revealed a non-displaced fracture at the point of the gelding's right hip.

The injury was mentioned on Twitter April 20 by co-owner Jim Rome, the sports media personality who campaigns Shared Belief through his Jungle Racing along with Jason Litt, Alex Solis II, George Todaro, KMN Racing, and Hall of Fame trainer Jerry Hollendorfer.

[Inner Dirt]

How someone could think a jockey would purposely stiff a horse in a $1.5 mil race is beyond me, if some funny business is going to go on it isn't going to happen when the winner's share of the purse is $800,000.

[Stillriledup]

How someone could think a jockey would purposely stiff a horse in a $1.5 mil race is beyond me, if some funny business is going to go on it isn't going to happen when the winner's share of the purse is $800,000.

Nobody is saying he stiffed the horse.

[NY BRED]

Ironically, my Vegas thought would be a bet on the # of lengths
SB would be ahead of the field at the finish line. Shows how
random and tough this game is on horses ,owners and fans.

Not for nothing, when I posted this arrogant statement I was
thinking about Big Brown's loss in the Belmont, and the various
discussions prior to the race in the press regarding his hoof.

There is an analogy here as SB's works prior to the CT Classic
were slow, and at first glance I thought there was
a physical issue, which then evaporated based upon the trainer
and connections, Quite simply, though SB is a gelding, this crew
would be insane to run in this race, despite the purse , and
place a horse in danger who was worthy of the 2014 HOY
eclipse award(3 year old).

Mike S and Kent D share the spotlight of pulling
their horse after breaking from the gate as heavy fav's
in a major stakes race, based on their experience with riding
and importantly to remove the horse from danger.

While I'm not a fan of Mike Smith, if there is any thought of
his abilities, he is also known as the Jockey of Zenyatta
which speaks legends of his talent and respect from
knowledgeable owners .

At this point, I would believe SB deserves to be retired
based upon the race and the works prior to the Classic.

SB provided many exciting moments in his racing
career, time to let him enjoy his remaining years.

[castaway01]

Nobody is saying he stiffed the horse.

Saying someone pulls horses up unnecessarily is the gutless way of saying he stiffed the horse. It's your usual "making accusations without having the guts to actually make the accusation" post.

You were totally, perfectly, 100% wrong, as usual.

[Dark Horse]

Just for you.
From Bloodhorse:

It turns out Mike Smith's intuition was right.

The Hall of Fame jockey likely saved multiple grade I winner Shared Belief from further injury by pulling him up in the Charles Town Classic (gr. II) April 18, as diagnostic work performed in the following days revealed a non-displaced fracture at the point of the gelding's right hip.

The injury was mentioned on Twitter April 20 by co-owner Jim Rome, the sports media personality who campaigns Shared Belief through his Jungle Racing along with Jason Litt, Alex Solis II, George Todaro, KMN Racing, and Hall of Fame trainer Jerry Hollendorfer.


It's probably true, but I'm going to reserve judgement until it is clear when and how the injury was sustained. Given that the overall consensus was that the injury happened at the start, can a horse fracture a hip just by jumping out of the gate? What are the odds? (and multiply those odds by this happening to the, widely regarded, best horse in the country). Maybe betting has made me too cynical, by always considering the odds. Maybe there are just vast coincidences that don't require further explanation.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Just for you.
From Bloodhorse:

It turns out Mike Smith's intuition was right.

The Hall of Fame jockey likely saved multiple grade I winner Shared Belief from further injury by pulling him up in the Charles Town Classic (gr. II) April 18, as diagnostic work performed in the following days revealed a non-displaced fracture at the point of the gelding's right hip.



I'm not a Mike Smith fan, but only an idiot would have questioned his actions in the Classic. Hats off to him.

[chadk66]

You almost make it sound like official board position, when in fact you know it's not a widely held belief...

Might want to revise going forward...not a board position at all. those on here know who I'm referring to I think.

[cj]

I'm not a Mike Smith fan, but only an idiot would have questioned his actions in the Classic. Hats off to him.

Agree 100%, we ask a lot of our riders but asking them to carry on riding a horse that doesn't feel sound is going way too far.

[chadk66]

when your this wrong you have to be quoted.....

greatest call everyou two guys need to get a room together....in the nut house:D

[chadk66]

Some serious Crow being ate by a few on here;) I wonder if they can pull their heads out of their proverbials far enough to eat it:cool:

[cj]

you two guys need to get a room together....in the nut house:D

GMB was being sarcastic, he has the Mike Smith SI "body issue" photo hanging in his room.

[PaceAdvantage]

I can't wait for the inevitable "SB isn't really injured...it's all part of a well-orchestrated betting coup" posts.... :lol:

[chadk66]

I can't wait for the inevitable "SB isn't really injured...it's all part of a well-orchestrated betting coup" posts.... :lol::lol:

[raybo]

Wouldn't it be refreshing if all the guys who talked bad about Smith, came back and apologized for being so illogical and/or biased? However, I doubt there's enough class in those camps to do so.

[JustRalph]

I can't wait for the inevitable "SB isn't really injured...it's all part of a well-orchestrated betting coup" posts.... :lol:

I actually thought that was the motive of the 2nd place finisher, when looking at the race before hand. The returning winner from the year before.

It crossed my mind for a second.......?

[Relwob Owner]

Wouldn't it be refreshing if all the guys who talked bad about Smith, came back and apologized for being so illogical and/or biased? However, I doubt there's enough class in those camps to do so.


For this to be the case, those guys would have to be genuine posters and not just ones who post things to incite a reaction....I doubt this class exists as well Raybo

[GMB@BP]

GMB was being sarcastic, he has the Mike Smith SI "body issue" photo hanging in his room.


CJ, its signed as well so yea...

[ultracapper]

I noticed someone mentioned Zenyatta. Smith rode her 16 times. Remind me how many times he pulled her up.

[ultracapper]

And just to beat this drum a little harder.

I remember a race, it must have been about number 15 or 16, where Zenyatta looked hopelessly beaten at the 8th pole. She was 5 lengths back and pinned on the rail behind backing up speed. He yanked on her head harder than I've ever remembered a jockey yanking on a horse's head to get her to change lanes RIGHT NOW. He got her into lane two or three, hit the gas and she got up. I couldn't believe how hard he yanked her head. It must have shocked her for a heart beat.

Disclosure. I am not a Mike Smith fan AT ALL. He drives me crazy how he lets a horse relax early in a race. He's out of more races before they've hit the first pole in sprint races than any jockey I watch. I don't know how many times I've screamed at the TV screen, "For Christ sakes Smith, get the damn horse in the race already".