Sheet Readers

[fivepanels]

If you are a sheet reader have you looked at the early numbers, here are my top plays

1. materiality
2.frosted
3.american pharoh
4. firing line
5. upstart

underneaths

carpe diem
danzig moon

I cant figure Dortmund I would toss him

give me your thoughts

[Stillriledup]

I don't purchase "sheets" but i know the concept and think about ground loss in my video work and whatnut, but here's a question for you and other sheet readers.

The Derby is a distance and most likely a surface none of the entrants have ever raced on, which means the numbers you are looking at aren't numbers that were accomplished at a mile and a quarter over the Churchill surface (not to mention different drug rules and prerace security, etc)

How do you use that as a factor when looking at numbers that have nothing to do with a mile and a quarter?

[fivepanels]

It is very helpful to have past races to look at if a known horse has run better races at certain tracks, but for this race most horses have all run either mile and a sixteenth or an eighth so the added distance is not a problem unless their breeding says so. As for drugs we don't take that into account unless lassix was on or off. Sheets are mostly about patterns of how horses react to prior races and create a pattern of good races to come. each number has taken into account up to 10 different things like ground saved wind track conditions etc and trouble for sure as well as the pace of the race.

[Huddy Goodjob]

If you are a sheet reader have you looked at the early numbers, here are my top plays

1. materiality
2.frosted
3.american pharoh
4. firing line
5. upstart

underneaths

carpe diem
danzig moon

I cant figure Dortmund I would toss him

give me your thoughts

What are these sheets you speak of?

[BlueChip@DRF]

What are these sheets you speak of?

Ragozin Sheets

[ArlJim78]

I'm curious why Firing Line is #4 and Dortmund is a toss.

[SecretAgentMan]

I have a friend that buys the sheets......he hit a nice triple or super (cant remember) last year in another race on derby day.

Does anyone know the last time the "sheets" had the winner in the KD?

[BlueChip@DRF]

I have a friend that buys the sheets......he hit a nice triple or super (cant remember) last year in another race on derby day.

Does anyone know the last time the "sheets" had the winner in the KD?

It wasn't War Emblem. I know because that's the 'class' I went to.

[fivepanels]

the sheets are a science, every user has different interpretations
on who they like but the one thing they do help with is horses not to use and we don't use class in our selections most of the time.if you don't know about them you should ask some track guys if they use them

[Thunder Gulch]

Sheets -Thorograph anyway- definitely pointed to Orb

[BlueChip@DRF]

Look at this Sheet.... How can you stand all these Sheets? I don't like the Sheet. It's all Sheet!

[ArlJim78]

Look at this Sheet.... How can you stand all these Sheets? I don't like the Sheet. It's all Sheet!
now don't be starting any sheet around here.

[sbcaris]

You do not have to spend 30 dollars for sheets when you can use the Beyer figs to the same importance. Last year the favorite was California Chrome and he had the highest last out Beyer fig. I do not know for sure but my guess would be he had the highest last out sheet number as well.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

the sheets are a science, every user has different interpretations
on who they like but the one thing they do help with is horses not to use and we don't use class in our selections most of the time.if you don't know about them you should ask some track guys if they use them

I use the Sheets in every big race event.

Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and most certainly the Breeders Cup.

The Sheets are spectacular in keeping you away from dead money horses. Horses that look good, or up and coming, will and can, look like garbage on the Sheets. And they basically red flag you to stay away. They are also great at identifying weak favorites.

At $30 to $40 clams per track, I only invest in big events. They are really only good with experienced top end horses with long running lines.

[sandpit]

I don't know what to make of Materiality, but Upstart to me is a complete toss. Horses need to have everything go basically perfect on the road to the Derby, and getting sick three weeks out and missing a work is the kiss of death.

Frosted seems like a live horse, and we know Kiaran can get a horse to peak on Derby Day, like Closing Argument did at 71-1 in 2005.

[boys at tosconova]

rags just lets you feel good about your long shot horses trending up,..and that's about all the do until after the race is over and you don't win.

can't be taken seriously anymore

[Robes]

You do not have to spend 30 dollars for sheets when you can use the Beyer figs to the same importance. Last year the favorite was California Chrome and he had the highest last out Beyer fig. I do not know for sure but my guess would be he had the highest last out sheet number as well.

1--You can not use the Beyers in the same way we use the Sheets,because the Beyer# is a speed figure and not very accurate,and the Sheet # is a performance figure, and is the most accurate figure out there, tests have been done to prove that, and I'm talking about the Ragozin Sheets not Thorograph

2--Most of the time most Sheet players don't bet the last higher # they use the last # to make informed decisions for where the horse is in its form cycle,and they use the #s to see if the horse is a contender in the race,the Sheets are about patterns #power and odds.
3D And most important I'm very glad not too manny people know about the Sheets and that not too manny people want to spend the $35.

[Robes]

I don't know what to make of Materiality, but Upstart to me is a complete toss. Horses need to have everything go basically perfect on the road to the Derby, and getting sick three weeks out and missing a work is the kiss of death.

Frosted seems like a live horse, and we know Kiaran can get a horse to peak on Derby Day, like Closing Argument did at 71-1 in 2005.

Upstart has #power,will have good rest,and also has a very good Sheet pattern
which points to a good race in the big race, the recent setback is a cause of concern but he worked very well the other day and scoped clean according to his trainer, Materiality has run 2 fast races on the Sheets and will have good rest into the Derby and there is no way you can toss him the negative on him is that he doesn't have a foundation.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

rags just lets you feel good about your long shot horses trending up,..and that's about all the do until after the race is over and you don't win.

can't be taken seriously anymore

:lol:

And that is why all the great trainers pay attention to "the sheets".

[RunForTheRoses]

Upstart has #power,will have good rest,and also has a very good Sheet pattern
which points to a good race in the big race, the recent setback is a cause of concern but he worked very well the other day and scoped clean according to his trainer, Materiality has run 2 fast races on the Sheets and will have good rest into the Derby and there is no way you can toss him the negative on him is that he doesn't have a foundation.

Thanks for posting. The Odds Must be Crazy is required reading and whenever I heard LR speaking you could just tell he is/was a man of great intellect. Please post some more, although PA has the Guillotine here.

*That is I'm guessing your LF from the Ragozin Board which I have lurked at for many years.

[boys at tosconova]

Upstart has #power,will have good rest,and also has a very good Sheet pattern
which points to a good race in the big race, the recent setback is a cause of concern but he worked very well the other day and scoped clean according to his trainer, Materiality has run 2 fast races on the Sheets and will have good rest into the Derby and there is no way you can toss him the negative on him is that he doesn't have a foundation.
http://c482944.r44.cf2.rackcdn.com/baffert_jpg_image_thumb.jpg

[Capper Al]

Ragozin Sheets

BlueChip,

Looking at your picture with a man running and a horse in the background makes me wonder. Did you take horse racing literally and run against them? What's your best time? Have you beat any notable horses? :>}

I should talk. I'm a gangster in my avatar.

[Bennie]

Capper al - you need to know who the man in the avatar is. He could probably beat some of the horse I have bet on. :)

[Lemon Drop Husker]

BlueChip,

Looking at your picture with a man running and a horse in the background makes me wonder. Did you take horse racing literally and run against them? What's your best time? Have you beat any notable horses? :>}

I should talk. I'm a gangster in my avatar.

You don't remember Chad Johnson racing against a horse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWGoSc28B1M

[Robes]

Thanks for posting. The Odds Must be Crazy is required reading and whenever I heard LR speaking you could just tell he is/was a man of great intellect. Please post some more, although PA has the Guillotine here.

*That is I'm guessing your LF from the Ragozin Board which I have lurked at for many years.

RFR,

I'm not LF, LF and LR are men that I admire hence the name Robes.☺️

[ten2oneormore]

You do not have to spend 30 dollars for sheets when you can use the Beyer figs to the same importance. Last year the favorite was California Chrome and he had the highest last out Beyer fig. I do not know for sure but my guess would be he had the highest last out sheet number as well.

Chrome was one of a bunch of horses all around the same numbers... so as the fave he was a toss to them.

They liked Samraat , General A Rod , and Vicar's In Trouble

2013 they liked Orb,Itsmyluckyday and/over normandy invasion ,verrazano


1--You can not use the Beyers in the same way we use the Sheets,because the Beyer# is a speed figure and not very accurate,and the Sheet # is a performance figure, and is the most accurate figure out there, tests have been done to prove that, and I'm talking about the Ragozin Sheets not Thorograph

2--Most of the time most Sheet players don't bet the last higher # they use the last # to make informed decisions for where the horse is in its form cycle,and they use the #s to see if the horse is a contender in the race,the Sheets are about patterns #power and odds.
3D And most important I'm very glad not too manny people know about the Sheets and that not too manny people want to spend the $35.


IMO




1-You are talking out ur arse. If there was a study to be done it wouldn't be Ragozin on top. Do you even know how they arrive at their figure? If you did you would notice at least 1 GIANT flaw .

2-Good handicappers haven't just bet the best last out fig since the 80s. Any figures can paint a form cycle picture and that is maybe 1/20 of what goes into estimating how a horse will run today. You sir need to put down the kool aid and look around. Who knows you might find a source that provides more information , is significantly more accurate , and costs a month what sheet people spend in a day.

I used sheets for a couple years playing almost daily and the thing I will commend them most for is turf routes. IMO they make the best turf route figures . Dirt routes are good too but if I was looking to spend $50 for there services it would be a hand picked collection of 18-20 turf races.

This show just did a segment on people subconsciously thinking just because something costs more it is better. In their study they made two identical cakes and had the public do a taste test under the assumption that one cake they sold for $60 and one sold for $10. Even though they were the exact same cake almost everyone gushed over the $60 cake how it was so good and moist and must of had the best ingredients while everyone thought the $10 cake was dry and bland. In the horse racing information world the bargain seller actually has the best information imo.

[Robes]

Chrome was one of a bunch of horses all around the same numbers... so as the fave he was a toss to them.

They liked Samraat , General A Rod , and Vicar's In Trouble

2013 they liked Orb,Itsmyluckyday and/over normandy invasion ,verrazano





IMO




1-You are talking out ur arse. If there was a study to be done it wouldn't be Ragozin on top. Do you even know how they arrive at their figure? If you did you would notice at least 1 GIANT flaw .

2-Good handicappers haven't just bet the best last out fig since the 80s. Any figures can paint a form cycle picture and that is maybe 1/20 of what goes into estimating how a horse will run today. You sir need to put down the kool aid and look around. Who knows you might find a source that provides more information , is significantly more accurate , and costs a month what sheet people spend in a day.

I used sheets for a couple years playing almost daily and the thing I will commend them most for is turf routes. IMO they make the best turf route figures . Dirt routes are good too but if I was looking to spend $50 for there services it would be a hand picked collection of 18-20 turf races.

This show just did a segment on people subconsciously thinking just because something costs more it is better. In their study they made two identical cakes and had the public do a taste test under the assumption that one cake they sold for $60 and one sold for $10. Even though they were the exact same cake almost everyone gushed over the $60 cake how it was so good and moist and must of had the best ingredients while everyone thought the $10 cake was dry and bland. In the horse racing information world the bargain seller actually has the best information imo.

First things first,I'm very glad that there are manny horseplayers like you in the pools,you and your friends sir pay for my Sheets +s much more,you said you used the Sheets for 2 years playing daily, my guess to why you stopped using them is that you you never learned to apply the #s correctly and of course you lost your money believe me it wasn't the Sheets fault, as for your assumption that some horseplayers buy the Sheets because they are expensive so they must be better you are dreaming,I've been buying the Sheets since 1985 and I buy 3 sets most days never less than 2 that's $65 or $95 for 4-5 days a week, do I use the Sheets alone for my handicapping? no I don't ,but without the Sheets I will be a losing horseplayer like the 98% or so that play the races, Succesfull Sheet reading sir requires accurate #s,and the Sheets have stood the test of time for accuracy, have you ever heard of a man named King Leatherbury,he trained from his home using Only the Sheets to place his horses, and I think the man won a few thousand races, and yes there was a test done and the Rag #s came on top,read The odds must be crazy,it's in there.
Good luck at the races, you will certainly need it.😐

[ten2oneormore]

First things first,I'm very glad that there are manny horseplayers like you in the pools,you and your friends sir pay for my Sheets +s much more

Clever , did you think of that all by yourself? Or did you search this forum and see the 20,000 other times someone led off with that hum dinger?


,you said you used the Sheets for 2 years playing daily, my guess to why you stopped using them is that you you never learned to apply the #s correctly and of course you lost your money believe me it wasn't the Sheets fault,

No I did well. Especially when I realized that I should concentrate on turf routes. I stopped using them because I stumbled on to something better and while trying the two together it became a no brainer to make the switch. RIP Pace Figures...best site/info/value ever


as for your assumption that some horseplayers buy the Sheets because they are expensive so they must be better you are dreaming,I've been buying the Sheets since 1985 and I buy 3 sets most days never less than 2 that's $65 or $95 for 4-5 days a week,

Blibbety blah blah blah

You say that likes it's a good thing.


do I use the Sheets alone for my handicapping? no I don't ,but without the Sheets I will be a losing horseplayer like the 98% or so that play the races, Succesfull Sheet reading sir requires accurate #s,and the Sheets have stood the test of time for accuracy, have you ever heard of a man named King Leatherbury,he trained from his home using Only the Sheets to place his horses, and I think the man won a few thousand races, and yes there was a test done and the Rag #s came on top,read The odds must be crazy,it's in there.
Good luck at the races, you will certainly need it.😐

King Leatherbury is 82 years old

The Odds Must Be Crazy is almost 20 years old

Besides using that as a source to say Ragozin Sheets are best is like using a book written by Ronald McDonald as evidence McDonalds makes the best food on the planet.Thorograph has surpassed them and if you must use sheets you should be using them.

The game has evolved with so much information at your fingertips. People like you think it's about loyalty . Playing their atari on their 20 inch panasonic black and white while thinking their Pontiac Fiero is a lady killer.

You sir are the one that will need luck at the races using figs that might as well be dots and dashes.

To prevent this from going back and forth any further I'll stop trying to help you out.

[nads1420]

what in the blue hell are "sheets"?

[Robes]

And i will leave you w/ this.
You remind of the Jehovah witnesses,they have an answer for everything :D

,
You say you did good w/ the SHEETS but stumbled into something better,:D:D:D you remind of a guy who stumbled on the driving comment in DRF
he was winning for a while just betting those horses:D

Sheet players have been laughing and fleecing handicappers like you for decades thank you for all the dead money in the pools.

Every successful trainer today uses the SHEETS in some way ,K. Leatherbury was an example.

again good luck at the races,like i said you certainly will need it.

[Tall One]

what in the blue hell are "sheets"?



Another name for rolling papers..


/:cool:

[Show Me the Wire]

what in the blue hell are "sheets"?

http://www.thesheets.com/

https://www.thorograph.com/

[BlueChip@DRF]

I went to their Derby seminar once back in 2002. War Emblem was not even mentioned once in their analysis.

[Richie]

well there you go then

[sandpit]

Upstart has #power,will have good rest,and also has a very good Sheet pattern
which points to a good race in the big race, the recent setback is a cause of concern but he worked very well the other day and scoped clean according to his trainer, Materiality has run 2 fast races on the Sheets and will have good rest into the Derby and there is no way you can toss him the negative on him is that he doesn't have a foundation.

I may have to rethink him for the underneath spots after the really good work and WinStar buying into the horse. I like his trainer a lot, but with some of the big-time conditioners having such good horses, I find it tough to Upstart on top in my wagers.

[BlueChip@DRF]

I may have to rethink him for the underneath spots after the really good work and WinStar buying into the horse. I like his trainer a lot, but with some of the big-time conditioners having such good horses, I find it tough to Upstart on top in my wagers.


Tough decisions require tough actions.

[LemonSoupKid]

I use the Sheets in every big race event.

Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and most certainly the Breeders Cup.

The Sheets are spectacular in keeping you away from dead money horses. Horses that look good, or up and coming, will and can, look like garbage on the Sheets. And they basically red flag you to stay away. They are also great at identifying weak favorites.

At $30 to $40 clams per track, I only invest in big events. They are really only good with experienced top end horses with long running lines.

Any chance you'll share them with a fellow Lemon this year?

I'd like to sample these "sheets", just for one racing day.

Thanks.

[Thunder Gulch]

I have a lot of respect for Thorograph and their team, but without understanding the methodology and how to read patterns, they are no better than any other figure. One thing that you need to know when using them is part of their adjustment relates to how wide they are on the turn, and thus the distance traveled. With that in mind, front runners who get the lead and stay on the rail never run as far as somebody caught wide on both turns, but if you are trying to handicap a race, you better know that the big figure horse that goes 4w4w won't get to the wire first.

They have a major weakness in that they discount pace. So do Beyer and Brisnet, but for somebody who claims their performance figures are more accurate and superior, they're missing that boat completely.

Their biggest advantage, from a wagering perspective, is not in their accuracy or superiority. They market themselves as such, but they just aren't. The advantage is that their methodology requires knowledge of how to interpret patterns and project improvements or bounces, which everyday Joe just doesn't know how to do. Therefore the horses they point to do not always get bet as heavily, and therefore have better odds/wager value.