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Gekish
04-10-2015, 11:53 AM
Met a man that worked for the Racing Times and the Form combined 40 years. I asked him if he knew anyone that made a living playing the horses. No, he answered but I met 2 guys that claimed they did !

v j stauffer
04-10-2015, 02:19 PM
Met a man that worked for the Racing Times and the Form combined 40 years. I asked him if he knew anyone that made a living playing the horses. No, he answered but I met 2 guys that claimed they did !

I know 4 guys that do. Hard work to be sure. Can be done.

thaskalos
04-10-2015, 02:32 PM
I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.

rlopez781
04-10-2015, 02:48 PM
Here in Las Vegas,you'll see a few of them all the time.I've played at the Red Rock Casino Race and Sportsbook for the last 6 months and I've watched this gentleman who sits quietly in a corner with his notebook computer.He bets 2 min before post and bets $200- 400 per win bets.My nephew who works there told me,he comes out ahead most of the time.They know him really well but you can tell he does not want to be bothered and looks all business when he's there...I also see 'runners' calling their boss on their cell phones about the latest odds on football/baseball/basketball games,and they jot down what their boss tells them and you'll see them making big bets on the games...Vegas is the real battleground.

traynor
04-10-2015, 03:01 PM
I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.

That is a good thing. It keeps the ravioli sauce off the cards used to practice the gee whiz, handy dandy, can't lose, gonna-make-a-million, plus-minus blackjack strategy. You have no idea how many decks were ruined before they learned to stop eating the ravioli with their fingers.

Stillriledup
04-10-2015, 03:38 PM
I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.

If Rocky said to Mickey "Its a living" Mickey might say: "Its a waste of life"

BreadandButter
04-10-2015, 03:48 PM
I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.

I know plenty of successful ones. Most migrate to areas of choice - sunbelt states etc. shortly after becoming successful. It's the same with poker players. Not likely to find them pushing through a cold winter in a big city when they have the freedom to do otherwise.

BlueChip@DRF
04-10-2015, 03:52 PM
I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.

Sometimes it's Spaghetti-O's....

Stillriledup
04-10-2015, 04:03 PM
I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.

l1sxZVhWwlY

Capper Al
04-10-2015, 04:04 PM
I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.

How much ravioli does it take to feed a whale?

BlueChip@DRF
04-10-2015, 04:07 PM
How much ravioli does it take to feed a whale?

I could just picture them at home accessing their online account.....

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelmovies/images/7/73/Pearl.png

Grits
04-10-2015, 04:32 PM
This is a new low.

Capper Al
04-10-2015, 04:38 PM
Lots of ravioli.

badcompany
04-10-2015, 04:44 PM
I've never met one, but, guys, here, seem to know lots of them ;)

From what I've heard, these individuals are very mysterious, and tend to lurk in the shadows, like a Leopard waiting to pounce on its prey.

yesman3000
04-10-2015, 04:49 PM
and if your not winning you can always have Macaroni and Cheese with Ketchup it GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DeltaLover
04-10-2015, 05:56 PM
I have never met anyone who is making a living by playing the horses (note that this is not necessary the same as been a winning horse bettor)...

Besides that though, I know a few people (one of them I happen to know very well!), who are capable to score big and occasionally they do... Still, all of them are holding real jobs and most of the times, they are ending their betting days among the heaviest loosers...

Ocala Mike
04-10-2015, 06:13 PM
The guys I knew back in the 80's and early 90's who claimed to be doing it were living in fleabag hotels, driving old Toyotas, and repairing the soles of their shoes with discarded DRF's. It's a "living," I suppose, but I was glad I had a real job and was just one of Saturday's children.

appistappis
04-10-2015, 07:48 PM
I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.


I really resent this comment......but I laughed my ass off.

baconswitchfarm
04-11-2015, 12:25 AM
While some of the guys I know are despised , none of us are living in fleabag hotels or eating canned food. In fact most guys live in a manner too large for their income, pretending that this sinking ship will be around forever.

v j stauffer
04-11-2015, 12:38 AM
[QUOTE=thaskalos]I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.[/QUOTE

100% dead on balls correct.

DelMarJay
04-11-2015, 01:58 AM
Horse racing only answer. People always say they're winning(in their lifetime) or they know somebody who is a consistent winner. Been around racetracks and OTB's my entire life, in many, many cities across the U.S.; I've never actually seen any proof. Does that mean there aren't any?

I bet there are, but them folks are never gonna be the ones to tell YOU that!!

Stillriledup
04-11-2015, 03:06 AM
[QUOTE=thaskalos]I know plenty...but almost all of them are alone and despised...living in basement apartments...and eating ravioli out of a can.[/QUOTE

100% dead on balls correct.

Ernie Dahlman is eating ravioli's in the basement of a Las Vegas Casino? :D

Jingle
04-11-2015, 07:22 AM
Harvey Pack use to tell a story about a successful banker he use to know (fictional). The banker had a great job, a wife and 3 kids and had over a two million dollar house in the suburbs. He loved to play the horses and would sneak out to the track 3-4 times a week. One of the last times Harvey saw him the banker told him he was quitting his job and become a full-time horseplayer as he was doing very well. A few years passed and Harvey heard the guy lost his house and his wife and kids left him and were on welfare. A year or so passed and Harvey was walking into Aqueduct one day
and saw his friend sitting on the curb in ragged clothes reading the DRF. They talked for a while and Harvey asked how he was doing with the horses. The guy said he has some good days and some bad days "and figured he was about even". He asked Harvey if he could loan him $20 to get in to AQU as he had a "hot one today".

Harvey had some good stories.

Robert Goren
04-11-2015, 08:10 AM
I knew someone who did it in the 1960s and1970s. I also knew a couple of people who gave it try in the 1980s and 1990s. They gave it up after a few years because they did not like the way they had to live even though they were making very good money doing it. I think it is the lifestyle that that gets to most people who give it try.

barn32
04-11-2015, 08:32 AM
They know him really well but you can tell he does not want to be bothered...Ya think?

Frost king
04-11-2015, 10:08 AM
I think, that it is very difficult to make a living at it. Just look at the guys, that sell figures, tip sheets and other stuff. If the stuff works like they say it does, why sell it to others? If you know it works, and it works well, then the track becomes your personal bank! So why would you sell the combination to the vault? The reason is, is because it doesn't work well enough. Just look on the backstretch of any race track. With all the perceived inside information on the backstretch, why are they not all driving BMW/Mercedes/Cadillac's? Some of the poorest people working in society live and work on the backstretch, if they can't make it, what would make you think, that we can from behind our DRF/computer? At least they get to see the animals up close, and know to a degree, which animals are sore and for what reason. They are not eating steak and lobster every night.

Capper Al
04-11-2015, 10:12 AM
I think, that it is very difficult to make a living at it. Just look at the guys, that sell figures, tip sheets and other stuff. If the stuff works like they say it does, why sell it to others? If you know it works, and it works well, then the track becomes your personal bank! So why would you sell the combination to the vault? The reason is, is because it doesn't work well enough. Just look on the backstretch of any race track. With all the perceived inside information on the backstretch, why are they not all driving BMW/Mercedes/Cadillac's? Some of the poorest people working in society live and work on the backstretch, if they can't make it, what would make you think, that we can from behind our DRF/computer? At least they get to see the animals up close, and know to a degree, which animals are sore and for what reason. They are not eating steak and lobster every night.

Agree.

horses4courses
04-11-2015, 10:20 AM
eating ravioli out of a can. :lol:

Ahh, the "good chef" caters to the starving masses.

mountainman
04-11-2015, 10:35 AM
Soooo easy to claim. So difficult to prove. Count me a skeptic. The house take would eventually sink a continent.

From a personal perspective, I totally lack the requisite emotional control. My best success-my only big profits-have come when a partner determined how much, in what manner, and when to wager.

sbcaris
04-11-2015, 10:48 AM
In the 1950s it was more likely to make a living from racing because the parimutual takeout was less (around 10 or 12 % if I remember correctly). Now with the 18% takeouts it is much more difficult.

wisconsin
04-11-2015, 11:16 AM
In the 1950s it was more likely to make a living from racing because the parimutual takeout was less (around 10 or 12 % if I remember correctly). Now with the 18% takeouts it is much more difficult.

Not only that, but exotics kill bankrolls quicker than simple win bets.

badcompany
04-11-2015, 01:01 PM
This game is best treated as an Entertainment Expense.

thaskalos
04-11-2015, 01:26 PM
The funny thing is that, many years ago, the major obstacle to becoming a professional horseplayer seemed to be the fact that all of us had only a few races a day at our disposal with which to try and eak out a living. I remember listening to esteemed author and player Dick Mitchell many years ago, when he declared that the only reason that he wasn't using his highly profitable "Platinum Strategies" to earn his living at the track was because those strategies were too restrictive...and he couldn't earn the "Rolls Royce" wages that were required in order to live a "successful life". Family and business responsibilities prevented him from settling in Las Vegas, so he could bet on as many races as he wanted...he told us.

Well, some years later, there was no reason to move to Vegas...because Vegas moved to us. All of us had as many races as we needed at our disposal...but those "Rolls Royce" wages proved as elusive as ever...even for Mr. Mitchell himself.

As the saying goes..."Be careful what you wish for"...

Gekish
04-11-2015, 01:32 PM
I am 78 been going to races since I was 10. Been handicapping since I was 14. Been around the country. At least 25 tracks. Never met anybody who was a "pro per se". Hung with the Sartin crowd for a while. All the great guns went back to their jobs or wrote a book. I spent a weekend with Sartin and Mitchell in New Orleans around 1983. They held a seminar there. We went to the track. Neither one of them made a bet or gave a definite horse in a race. It was all double talk like stockbrokers give when you ask them about the direction of the market.

Cratos
04-11-2015, 03:05 PM
There is an old saying: “Misery loves company” and that what I hear from the outcry that no one is making a living from this game or the game is too tough to make a living.

Yes, this game is tough and there is probably more losers than winners, but there are winners who will never reveal themselves for many reasons and some of those reasons are income tax impact.

However it always intrigues me that someone will continue to play a game that he/she can’t beat.

There are winners, you just haven’t met them and probably never will because they don’t want to be identified and yet they are profiting by taking your money.

Stop being cynical, this is America and people make money in ways you never dreamed of and horserace wagering is just one of those ways.

Frost king
04-11-2015, 03:19 PM
Being a Canadian, what would be the effective income tax rate on your racetrack income?

badcompany
04-11-2015, 03:33 PM
There are winners, you just haven’t met them and probably never will because they don’t want to be identified and yet they are profiting by taking your money.

Funny how we know many of the "winners" in the financial world and the poker world, yet the horseracing equivalent remain men of mystery.

As far as why so called losers continue to play, what's wrong with viewing a trip to the track as you would a day at Yankee Stadium? As I said, it's an Entertainment Expense.

Cratos
04-11-2015, 04:13 PM
Funny how we know many of the "winners" in the financial world and the poker world, yet the horseracing equivalent remain men of mystery.

As far as why so called losers continue to play, what's wrong with viewing a trip to the track as you would a day at Yankee Stadium? As I said, it's an Entertainment Expense.
I don’t know if many of the "winners" in the financial world and the poker world are revealed to us publicly or if horseracing as an industry does not promote its winners.

What I am saying is that there are poker tournaments on TV and many of the financial journals make note of the Who’s in the financial world.

However with the exception of the annual DRF Handicapping Tournament you never hear about winners at the racetrack.

Added to all of this is the “black cloud” hanging over horseracing as a corrupted industry full of cheaters and losers.

This perception is something that can be fixed, but it will take a concerted effort by the entire industry to do so and I really don’t believe that will happen under the present industry structure.

Tom
04-11-2015, 06:12 PM
I love cold ravioli out of a can.
With Dr. Pepper.

Only interesting idea of this thread so far. :rolleyes:

Stillriledup
04-11-2015, 06:22 PM
The funny thing is that, many years ago, the major obstacle to becoming a professional horseplayer seemed to be the fact that all of us had only a few races a day at our disposal with which to try and eak out a living. I remember listening to esteemed author and player Dick Mitchell many years ago, when he declared that the only reason that he wasn't using his highly profitable "Platinum Strategies" to earn his living at the track was because those strategies were too restrictive...and he couldn't earn the "Rolls Royce" wages that were required in order to live a "successful life". Family and business responsibilities prevented him from settling in Las Vegas, so he could bet on as many races as he wanted...he told us.

Well, some years later, there was no reason to move to Vegas...because Vegas moved to us. All of us had as many races as we needed at our disposal...but those "Rolls Royce" wages proved as elusive as ever...even for Mr. Mitchell himself.

As the saying goes..."Be careful what you wish for"...

Good points. Its like a poker game in your basement with the 'usual suspects' except now, Phil Ivey gets to participate in your game, in your basement in Chicago, while not even having to be there.

BreadandButter
04-11-2015, 07:08 PM
There is an old saying: “Misery loves company” and that what I hear from the outcry that no one is making a living from this game or the game is too tough to make a living.

Yes, this game is tough and there is probably more losers than winners, but there are winners who will never reveal themselves for many reasons and some of those reasons are income tax impact.

However it always intrigues me that someone will continue to play a game that he/she can’t beat.

There are winners, you just haven’t met them and probably never will because they don’t want to be identified and yet they are profiting by taking your money.

Stop being cynical, this is America and people make money in ways you never dreamed of and horserace wagering is just one of those ways.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Lots of people spend a considerable amount of time on the golf course - yet they have never met a single person that makes a "living" playing golf. The media does the job of informing the public that there are indeed professional golfers. I've spent very little time on any golf course - but have met quite a few professional golfers (i.e., meaning they have their tour card). Granted these weren't in the upper echelon - but just from my personal observations it wouldn't be far fetched if I were to question if they can really "make a living" just playing golf.

DeltaLover
04-11-2015, 07:29 PM
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Lots of people spend a considerable amount of time on the golf course - yet they have never met a single person that makes a "living" playing golf. The media does the job of informing the public that there are indeed professional golfers. I've spent very little time on any golf course - but have met quite a few professional golfers (i.e., meaning they have their tour card). Granted these weren't in the upper echelon - but just from my personal observations it wouldn't be far fetched if I were to question if they can really "make a living" just playing golf.

So what? You imply that playing golf is similar to betting horses? The best analogy to horse racing would be not to horse players but to jockeys, which is quite different

BreadandButter
04-11-2015, 08:16 PM
So what? You imply that playing golf is similar to betting horses? The best analogy to horse racing would be not to horse players but to jockeys, which is quite different

No, making an analogy that simply because many of the posters here go to the track often yet have never met a professional horse player. Is no different than someone saying they go to the golf course often and have yet to meet a professional golfer.

DeltaLover
04-11-2015, 08:38 PM
No, making an analogy that simply because many of the posters here go to the track often yet have never met a professional horse player. Is no different than someone saying they go to the golf course often and have yet to meet a professional golfer.

Still, going to the track, you can find a lot of pros who make their living like the jocks and the trainers,,, You can do the same by watching any pro gulf, soccer, tennis etc games..

thaskalos
04-11-2015, 08:40 PM
No, making an analogy that simply because many of the posters here go to the track often yet have never met a professional horse player. Is no different than someone saying they go to the golf course often and have yet to meet a professional golfer.
Yes...but we have concrete proof to back up people's claims of becoming fabulously wealthy playing golf...or tennis, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, boxing, wrestling, poker, chess, backgammon, the stock market, driving a car, betting sports, shooting pool, swimming, ice skating...etc. And, whenever we ask to see a few of the millionaire horseplayers...all we have as proof is some Russian guy who operates in a betting landscape which allows him to wager $100,000 on a horse without destroying his own odds.

Where are horse racing's role models to inspire the young players who seek to strike it rich in this game? We know that the owners, the trainers, and the jockeys can do it...but we want to see proof that the BETTORS can do it as well.

Is that too much to ask?

BreadandButter
04-11-2015, 08:44 PM
Yes...but we have concrete proof to back up people's claims of becoming fabulously wealthy playing golf...or tennis, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, boxing, wrestling, poker, chess, backgammon, the stock market, driving a car, betting sports, shooting pool, swimming, ice skating...etc. And, whenever we ask to see a few of the millionaire horseplayers...all we have as proof is some Russian guy who operates in a betting landscape which allows him to wager $100,000 on a horse without destroying his own odds.

Where are horse racing's role models to inspire the young players who seek to strike it rich in this game? We know that the owners, the trainers, and the jockeys can do it...but we want to see proof that the BETTORS can do it as well.

Is that too much to ask?

Stillriledup provided that previously in this thread.

DeltaLover
04-11-2015, 08:49 PM
Where are horse racing's role models to inspire the young players who seek to strike it rich in this game?


Maybe the are hidden in the same place with some other similar 'winners' (in games like dice or roulette) (in other words fantasy land) ????

thaskalos
04-11-2015, 08:51 PM
Maybe the are hidden in the same place with some other similar 'winners' (in games like dice or roulette) (in other words fantasy land) ????
Or, they are dodging the publicity in an attempt to avoid the tax man. :rolleyes:

DeltaLover
04-11-2015, 09:08 PM
Or, they are dodging the publicity in an attempt to avoid the tax man. :rolleyes:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The truth is that they way the game is played here in the States, it makes it next to impossible to avoid the gamblers ruin principle.

Things should not be the same in more advanced (from the betting point of view) countries, where punters can take advantages of things like betting exchanges and fixed odds. Given these betting instruments, I believe that it is absolutely realistic to talk about professional horse (and anything else) bettors...

thaskalos
04-11-2015, 09:17 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The truth is that they way the game is played here in the States, it makes it next to impossible to avoid the gamblers ruin principle.

Things should not be the same in more advanced (from the betting point of view) countries, where punters can take advantages of things like betting exchanges and fixed odds. Given these betting instruments, I believe that it is absolutely realistic to talk about professional horse (and anything else) bettors...
Agreed. In more gambling-progressive countries...you can make a great living betting on horses. In this country...a meager existence is about all you can expect as a professional horseplayer. The American bettor is being dealt cards from a stacked deck.

DeltaLover
04-11-2015, 09:31 PM
Agreed. In more gambling-progressive countries...you can make a great living betting on horses. In this country...a meager existence is about all you can expect as a professional horseplayer. The American bettor is being dealt cards from a stacked deck.

And this is exactly the reason of the decline of the sport... Consider than in London for example, you can find a betting shop in every other corned where you place any kind of a bet your heart wishes, from horses and soccer to whether is going to rain tomorrow or not and on top of this you also have a large array of on-line bookies and betting exchanges to make your choices.. Comparing this gambler's paradise with the antiquated procedure that is offered to us, is at least depressing !

thaskalos
04-11-2015, 09:44 PM
And this is exactly the reason of the decline of the sport... Consider than in London for example, you can find a betting shop in every other corned where you place any kind of a bet your heart wishes, from horses and soccer to whether is going to rain tomorrow or not and on top of this you also have a large array of on-line bookies and betting exchanges to make your choices.. Comparing this gambler's paradise with the antiquated procedure that is offered to us, is at least depressing !
In this country...you can find a slot machine parlor on every other corner. :rolleyes:

Cratos
04-11-2015, 11:16 PM
I am confused because some on here has revealed of "whales" who wager 8-figures and above annually and I haven't read the doubts that it is not true.

Also a poster who post on this forum, recently implied of having wagered a very high 7-figure amount annually and to the best of my knowledge there wasn't any dispute retorts.

However what has become amusing about this thread is the ubiquitous "we" cantillating repeatedly the same request: "... prove it to us" or " we/I have yet to see ...." and I say to those with all due respect, keep waiting for answers to your inquiries because the people I know who have made or is making money from horserace wagering are very quiet and discreet.

Finally I wonder what would happen if the IRS found out that a bettor had a $200k winning wager on a 10-1 shot and didn't report it?

Stillriledup
04-11-2015, 11:18 PM
Yes...but we have concrete proof to back up people's claims of becoming fabulously wealthy playing golf...or tennis, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, boxing, wrestling, poker, chess, backgammon, the stock market, driving a car, betting sports, shooting pool, swimming, ice skating...etc. And, whenever we ask to see a few of the millionaire horseplayers...all we have as proof is some Russian guy who operates in a betting landscape which allows him to wager $100,000 on a horse without destroying his own odds.

Where are horse racing's role models to inspire the young players who seek to strike it rich in this game? We know that the owners, the trainers, and the jockeys can do it...but we want to see proof that the BETTORS can do it as well.

Is that too much to ask?

The difference between people who make their living in boxing, hockey, basketball is that in boxing, people pay 50 bucks pay per view to see a boxer ply his trade...nobody is paying 50 bucks to see pro horseplayer bet. So, there's no "incentive" for a pro horseplayer to make himself known, people who win a lot of money don't want to wave it around and say "look at me im rich due to horsebetting". Now, if TVG wanted to hire one of these guys and pay them a few hundred grand a year to go on tv and talk about how they win, maybe some of them would come out and make themselves known.

But, as it stands, there's no financial incentive for a rich pro to come out of the gambling closet and talk about his finances, "racing" isn't paying the very best players to be "leaders" for their sport.

Frost king
04-12-2015, 01:03 AM
Pretty tough to make a living at a game, where you are paying approximately 50% in tax to show a profit. The first 20% in track rake, and then another 30% to the IRS in taxable income.

Hoofless_Wonder
04-12-2015, 02:20 AM
...Finally I wonder what would happen if the IRS found out that a bettor had a $200k winning wager on a 10-1 shot and didn't report it?

Ummm, big fine or jail? It would be difficult NOT to report it, as the banks keep an eye on or report any transactions exceeding $10K. Can't see how you'd get it in cash without the track reporting you either.

It would definitely be nicer to play the horses in the UK where gambling income is not taxed. Back in the 1980s I knew a couple of players who made their living off the horses - they were single and had no big financial commitments. I also knew several winning recreational players, who supplemented their incomes with some decent winnings from the track and football.

Today things are different. It seems the people making a living on the ponies are:
a. members of a syndicate
b. mini-whales with sophisticated software tools
c. single circuit players leveraging the less quantitative aspects of handicapping like physicality, trips, biases, race replays, and trainer patterns.
d. the upper 1/10th of 1% who apparently get ROIs exceeding 20%

I imagine the characteristics of people making a living at poker or sports betting is quite a bit different.

There also seems to be fewer winning recreational players - almost all the other horseplayers I know have cut back on their play - 'cause it's tougher these days.

Ocala Mike
04-12-2015, 09:55 AM
Being a Canadian, what would be the effective income tax rate on your racetrack income?



Complicated, as it depends on whether the "income" is reported as "other income," i.e., a casual or recreational gambler who made a big score or as "business income." i.e, a professional gambler reporting on a Schedule C who might be able to offset it with business expenses.

I think the short answer that you are looking for is that the income is taxed as ordinary income (high rate), not capital gains (lower rate) , so it is a real bummer.

Fwizard
04-12-2015, 10:14 AM
In my 30 years of gambling I have met only one person who could make a living at horse betting--in fact one summer we went to the track for 23 days in a row and he did not have a losing day betting about 20-60 dollars on exacta/trifectas hitting multiple tickets on lower priced combos--he averaged a profit of about 1000-1500 per week ...not rich by any means but winning ...I stopped going with him (because I was losing) ...about three months later I asked him if he was still playing he said no ...I asked "Did you start losing ?" he said no, but this was the hardest he ever worked and his blood pressure was sky high and had to quit...and yes I do believe him as I was able to see his tickets all the time.

DeltaLover
04-12-2015, 11:48 AM
Also a poster who post on this forum, recently implied of having wagered a very high 7-figure amount annually and to the best of my knowledge there wasn't any dispute retorts.

Anyone can make any claim his heart desires, especially when posting to web forum anonymously. The good thing is that all of us are aware about it and do not take seriously this kind of silly and unsupported claims and do not even bother to make any related comments!



Finally I wonder what would happen if the IRS found out that a bettor had a $200k winning wager on a 10-1 shot and didn't report it?

I am a bit confused here. I think that the tale has these mythical creatures to depend on rebates as their main vehicle of beating the game and as far as I know, in order to qualify for them, you need an account registered to your name which is directly reported to Uncle Sam, so no matter what they do they cannot escape from him.

More than this, in more than 99.5% of the available pools in Northern America, a $200k win bet is enough to convert any 10-1 shot to an odds on proposition..

badcompany
04-12-2015, 11:54 AM
The minor detail that always seems to get left out of these discussions is the fact that you have to live.

Being profitable isn't enough. If your living expenses are greater than your profit, you're still on the road to broke.

Which brings us to the topic of Whales. Did these guys start out as $2 bettors and work up their bankrolls from there? Highly unlikely for most. More realistic is they have another income stream. In that case, they're not really pros.

badcompany
04-12-2015, 11:58 AM
Anyone can make any claim his heart desires, especially when posting to web forum anonymously. The good thing is that all of us are aware about it and do not take seriously this kind of silly and unsupported claims and do not even bother to make any related comments!




I am a bit confused here. I think that the tale has these mythical creatures to depend on rebates as their main vehicle of beating the game and as far as I know, in order to qualify for them, you need an account registered to your name which is directly reported to Uncle Sam, so no matter what they do they cannot escape from him.

More than this, in more than 99.5% of the available pools in Northern America, a $200k win bet is enough to convert any 10-1 shot to an odds on proposition..

That's the beauty of the Internet. Reality doesn't have to be a concern. ;)

v j stauffer
04-12-2015, 12:15 PM
The massive whales are barely horseplayers. They don't handicap per se. They have computer programs which analyze pools and bet accordingly right up to the break.

They play with rebate shops. The goal is to bet the most money possible while still breaking even. Then collect anywhere from 6 to 11% of that amount in rebates.

$100 million bet. $100 million cashed. $6 to $11 million profit.

BTW fellas. These are your culprits for late odds changes. They aren't betting after the start. However, massive bets can be made by the computer seconds before the break.

That $$ appears on the last cycle. Most tracks don't have split second fiber optics so it takes a while for that last bet to hit the board. When the computer balanced the books with the favorite that horses odds will inevitably go down. Thereby giving the illusion someone is betting after the start.

Cratos
04-12-2015, 01:19 PM
Anyone can make any claim his heart desires, especially when posting to web forum anonymously. The good thing is that all of us are aware about it and do not take seriously this kind of silly and unsupported claims and do not even bother to make any related comments!




I am a bit confused here. I think that the tale has these mythical creatures to depend on rebates as their main vehicle of beating the game and as far as I know, in order to qualify for them, you need an account registered to your name which is directly reported to Uncle Sam, so no matter what they do they cannot escape from him.

More than this, in more than 99.5% of the available pools in Northern America, a $200k win bet is enough to convert any 10-1 shot to an odds on proposition..
Why should anyone believe a one-sided claim, but it appears here that the propensity is to believe the nay Sayers spewing what can't happen because they didn't witness it.

Also as stated, on the Internet many claims are made because that what anonymity allows to happen true or false and to argue it is false carrys no more weight than if it is true.

I personally don't care whether you are a winner or a loser and how much you won or lost is not my concern and yes I am very selfish when it comes to making money and it doesn't matter if it is horseracing or some other business venture that I might be involved in.

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 01:49 PM
To say that a profit can still be made at the racetrack is hardly a provocative statement, and all the members here would agree with such an assessment. But to make a reasonable living, and responsibly support and raise a family, with the game as it's been run today? That is indeed a provocative comment, and who could blame those who refuse to believe that such a thing is possible?

We understand that the professional horseplayer may shun the spotlight, for a variety of reasons. But, as he basks in his anonymity...can he really blame us for thinking that he doesn't exist?

Cratos
04-12-2015, 02:53 PM
There are many things that "we" didn't witness, but did happen.

I will not join the nay Sayers group; and I am not going to waste time attempting to convince anyone about anything that they choose not to believe.

I recently listened to the founder of the Under Armour (I think the name is correct) company, the maker of clothing for sports and exercise. He told how he borrowed against his credit card and went to Atlantic City in hope of turning the borrowed money into more money to help finance his company, but the gambling venture didn't work and when he left Atlantic City he didn't have tolll fare to cross the bridge back to NY.

Today his net worth is $3B

I will say again, if you won at the racetrack I am happy for you and you don't have to prove anything to me.

Hoofless_Wonder
04-12-2015, 02:57 PM
If a professional who is part of a syndicate is making a living from the ponies, it's really just like having any other job with a steady paycheck and perhaps some kind of bonus. I wouldn't even count them.

If a professional is actually savvy enough to put in the effort to make a living from the ponies on his own, it's not long before the realization sets in that with the same effort and skills much greener pastures are available in the markets, sports betting or poker.

IMHO the pros are rare and mostly fleeting.

traynor
04-12-2015, 04:18 PM
To say that a profit can still be made at the racetrack is hardly a provocative statement, and all the members here would agree with such an assessment. But to make a reasonable living, and responsibly support and raise a family, with the game as it's been run today? That is indeed a provocative comment, and who could blame those who refuse to believe that such a thing is possible?

We understand that the professional horseplayer may shun the spotlight, for a variety of reasons. But, as he basks in his anonymity...can he really blame us for thinking that he doesn't exist?
"After that my guess is that you will never hear from him again. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone. "

Verbal, in The Usual Suspects.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114814/quotes

"Success" has different meanings to different people. Some may shun the "recognition" that others seem to crave so desperately.

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 04:38 PM
"After that my guess is that you will never hear from him again. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone. "

Verbal, in The Usual Suspects.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114814/quotes

"Success" has different meanings to different people. Some may shun the "recognition" that others seem to crave so desperately.
I can't be sure if this invalidates my point...or further substantiates it. Does the devil really exist? Some think that he does...while others presume that he doesn't. The devil -- much like the professional horseplayer -- refuses to provide proof of his existence...so we can't really be blamed for leaning towards either belief or disbelief.

Great movie, by the way. One of my favorites. :ThmbUp:

traynor
04-12-2015, 04:40 PM
The first solicitation I can recall to participate in a group whose members were supposedly earning "seven figure incomes" by churning and rebates was about 10 years ago. Maybe a little longer, maybe a little less. It was obvious that the person/group making the solicitation was essentailly clueless about the realities involved. Nothing has happened in the interim to change that impression in the least.

acorn54
04-12-2015, 05:17 PM
in this months horseplayer magazine, free at the hana website there is a brief interview with a professional sports gamble named; sitzman, i believe.
anyway he is candid about the deal. he says he bets hockey and other professional gambler-friends of his, deal in sports gambling,avoiding horseracing, simply because the "hill to climb" in overtaking the takeout versus other sports venues is so high.
he says he just bets on horses for the thrill of it as it is more exciting.

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 05:28 PM
Horse betting can be a wonderful and profitable hobby...but it's a maddening profession.

barn32
04-12-2015, 08:26 PM
I recently listened to the founder of the Under Armour (I think the name is correct) company, the maker of clothing for sports and exercise. He told how he borrowed against his credit card and went to Atlantic City in hope of turning the borrowed money into more money to help finance his company, but the gambling venture didn't work and when he left Atlantic City he didn't have tolll fare to cross the bridge back to NY.

Today his net worth is $3B

OK, so tomorrow I'm going to go down to the Venetian and put down my entire net worth on red...no black...no wait, let's make it even, yea, even. And when I go broke and have to walk home, I can rest assured in the fact that billions of dollars await me in the future.

Lots of degenerate gamblers have made great fortunes. Read Market Wizards (http://www.amazon.com/Market-Wizards-Updated-Interviews-Traders/dp/1118273052/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428884205&sr=1-1&keywords=market+wizards) and The New Market Wizards (http://www.amazon.com/New-Market-Wizards-Conversations-Americas/dp/0887306675/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428884205&sr=1-3&keywords=market+wizards). (Two of my favorite books by the way, but I can't help but believe that some, not all, but some of the people in those books are just a bunch of degenerate gamblers who got really, really lucky.)

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 08:34 PM
OK, so tomorrow I'm going to go down to the Venetian and put down my entire net worth on red...no black...no wait, let's make it even, yea, even. And when I go broke and have to walk home, I can rest assured in the fact that billions of dollars await me in the future.

Lots of degenerate gamblers have made great fortunes. Read Market Wizards (http://www.amazon.com/Market-Wizards-Updated-Interviews-Traders/dp/1118273052/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428884205&sr=1-1&keywords=market+wizards) and The New Market Wizards (http://www.amazon.com/New-Market-Wizards-Conversations-Americas/dp/0887306675/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428884205&sr=1-3&keywords=market+wizards). (Two of my favorite books by the way, but I can't help but believe that some, not all, but some of the people in those books are just a bunch of degenerate gamblers who got really, really lucky.)

And also had rich daddies who kept bailing them out as they blew up account after account in the early going...as they were "perfecting their trade".

Cratos
04-12-2015, 08:41 PM
OK, so tomorrow I'm going to go down to the Venetian and put down my entire net worth on red...no black...no wait, let's make it even, yea, even. And when I go broke and have to walk home, I can rest assured in the fact that billions of dollars await me in the future.

Lots of degenerate gamblers have made great fortunes. Read Market Wizards (http://www.amazon.com/Market-Wizards-Updated-Interviews-Traders/dp/1118273052/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428884205&sr=1-1&keywords=market+wizards) and The New Market Wizards (http://www.amazon.com/New-Market-Wizards-Conversations-Americas/dp/0887306675/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428884205&sr=1-3&keywords=market+wizards). (Two of my favorite books by the way, but I can't help but believe that some, not all, but some of the people in those books are just a bunch of degenerate gamblers who got really, really lucky.)

Luck is when opportunity meets preparedness and being a "degenerate gambler" as you stated has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Cynicism is a major character flaw.

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 08:47 PM
Cynicism is a major character flaw.
So is self-conceit.

Saratoga_Mike
04-12-2015, 08:49 PM
And also had rich daddies who kept bailing them out as they blew up account after account in the early going...as they were "perfecting their trade".

Which "Wizards" were bailed out by rich daddies?

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 08:53 PM
Which "Wizards" were bailed out by rich daddies?
Half of them.

Saratoga_Mike
04-12-2015, 08:55 PM
Half of them.

They owned up to it in the book? I tried to read the book once and found it deathly boring. I never understood why people praised such a lousy book.

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 09:05 PM
They owned up to it in the book? I tried to read the book once and found it deathly boring. I never understood why people praised such a lousy book.

Yes...they admitted it...once they became successful, of course.

It's easy to adopt an aggressive trading style when you know that daddy will always put you back in action when you go broke. All of us should be that lucky.

When poor Thaskalos tried to get aggressive with his betting back in the early days...he had no one to rely on when the going got rough...and many a bookie put him up against the wall. I could teach some of those "Market Wizards" a thing or two about REAL pressure.

Saratoga_Mike
04-12-2015, 09:10 PM
...should have tried the market Thask

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 09:11 PM
...should have tried the market Thask
Sure...NOW you tell me. :)

OCF
04-12-2015, 09:22 PM
...I asked "Did you start losing ?" he said no, but this was the hardest he ever worked and his blood pressure was sky high and had to quit...

Exactly, what seems like a dream life would quickly become tedious and unsatisfying, not to mention stressful off the charts. I suppose a few might handle the pressure with ease, but count me out.

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 09:28 PM
Exactly, what seems like a dream life would quickly become tedious and unsatisfying, not to mention stressful off the charts. I suppose a few might handle the pressure with ease, but count me out.
To be honest...MOST jobs could be categorized as "tedious and unsatisfying", as well as "stressful"...and yet, people hold on to them for 40 years. You do what you have to do.

To me, the difficult thing about professional gambling is getting used to going to work...and returning home with $6,000 less than what you had when you last left the house.

ReplayRandall
04-12-2015, 09:47 PM
To me, the difficult thing about professional gambling is getting used to going to work...and returning home with $6,000 less than what you had when you left the house.
Conversely, returning home with $6,000 more than what you had when you left the house is the other side of the coin.....It's all in a day's work, no big deal either way, it's just a very hard grind to make an easy living.

OCF
04-12-2015, 09:58 PM
To be honest...MOST jobs could be categorized as "tedious and unsatisfying", as well as "stressful"...and yet, people hold on to them for 40 years. You do what you have to do.

I agree that a lot of people do just that, but disagree that they have to.

Many of them could opt for more satisfying work if they were able to sacrifice earnings, lifestyle, identity, prestige, etc. and/or order their lives so that they could live on less.

I speak from experience (on the able to sacrifice side :)).

As I've said here before, I find horseplaying to be a very enjoyable hobby/pastime that is challenging and can be relatively inexpensive. Even if I ever get to better than breakeven I couldn't see myself doing it for a living.

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 09:59 PM
Conversely, returning home with $6,000 more than what you had when you left the house is the other side of the coin.....It's all in a day's work, no big deal either way, it's just a very hard grind to make an easy living.
As I said...you do what you have to do. I have played the horses professionally for a little over 9 years now...and it hasn't bothered me in the least. But serious gambling suits my temperament...and I have certain financial advantages which the average gambler may not have. For the last two years or so, I have ventured into the world of no-limit poker...and I love it. So...I am now in a transitional period. I will abandon my favorite game, for the greener pastures that the green baize has to offer...and I would advise the same to all the gamblers out there who are trying to choose between horse racing and poker as an income venue.

IMO...poker is clearly the better game...though it pains me to admit it.

ReplayRandall
04-12-2015, 10:08 PM
As I said...you do what you have to do. I have played the horses professionally for a little over 9 years now...and it hasn't bothered me in the least. But serious gambling suits my temperament...and I have certain financial advantages which the average gambler may not have. For the last two years or so, I have ventured into the world of no-limit poker...and I love it. So...I am now in a transitional period. I will abandon my favorite game, for the greener pastures that the green baize has to offer...and I would advise the same to all the gamblers out there who are trying to choose between horse racing and poker as an income venue.

IMO...poker is clearly the better game...though it pains me to admit it.
You're starting to sound like Archie Karas, though he didn't play the horses much.......by chance, are you related?.. :cool:

no breathalyzer
04-12-2015, 10:19 PM
Long time reader here. first time poster. i just wanted to say i couldn't disagree anymore. I played poker for yrs and for me playing horses is a much better game and i don't even have to leave my house to bet.

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 10:22 PM
You're starting to sound like Archie Karas, though he didn't play the horses much.......by chance, are you related?.. :cool:
True story...and I think I told this story here before:

I met Archie Karas in Vegas about 10 years ago. We were introduced by a friend of mine who knew Archie well. All I knew about him was what I had read in a couple of books. We sat down to eat dinner...and I started asking him questions about his legendary winning streak at Binnion's...where Archie supposedly had won all the $5,000 chips in the casino. Our conversation went like this:

Thaskalos "Archie...is it true that you were up $40,000,000...and you lost it all back?"

Karas "Yes...it's true."

Thaskalos "You lost ALL OF IT? You didn't hold anything back?"

Karas "Why? What would YOU have done."

Thaskalos "Well...I think I would have held on to a couple million...just to tide me over."

Karas (With a disgusted look) "That's why you'll never see $40,000,000 in your life."

thaskalos
04-12-2015, 10:23 PM
Long time reader here. first time poster. i just wanted to say i couldn't disagree anymore. I played poker for yrs and for me playing horses is a much better game and i don't even have to leave my house to bet.

Welcome to our home. :ThmbUp:

Stillriledup
04-12-2015, 10:31 PM
True story...and I think I told this story here before:

I met Archie Karas in Vegas about 10 years ago. We were introduced by a friend of mine who knew Archie well. All I knew about him was what I had read in a couple of books. We sat down to eat dinner...and I started asking him questions about his legendary winning streak at Binnion's...where Archie supposedly had won all the $5,000 chips in the casino. Our conversation went like this:

Thaskalos "Archie...is it true that you were up $40,000,000...and you lost it all back?"

Karas "Yes...it's true."

Thaskalos "You lost ALL OF IT? You didn't hold anything back?"

Karas "Why? What would YOU have done."

Thaskalos "Well...I think I would have held on to a couple million...just to tide me over."

Karas (With a disgusted look) "That's why you'll never see $40,000,000 in your life."

:lol:

Wow.

acorn54
04-12-2015, 10:33 PM
Long time reader here. first time poster. i just wanted to say i couldn't disagree anymore. I played poker for yrs and for me playing horses is a much better game and i don't even have to leave my house to bet.


yes that is the point i was trying to make. in the hana mag article -april edition,
sitzman said the horses were a much better GAME, but he and his contemporaries used other sportsbetting for a living.
of course only the irs and the cpa's that do people's taxes know what percentage actually make their living from sports gambling and horsebetting specifically. i don't know if the irs makes public the number of people by occupation, specifically breaking down the sports categories of people who declare their occupation when filing taxes.

lamboguy
04-13-2015, 04:52 AM
True story...and I think I told this story here before:

I met Archie Karas in Vegas about 10 years ago. We were introduced by a friend of mine who knew Archie well. All I knew about him was what I had read in a couple of books. We sat down to eat dinner...and I started asking him questions about his legendary winning streak at Binnion's...where Archie supposedly had won all the $5,000 chips in the casino. Our conversation went like this:

Thaskalos "Archie...is it true that you were up $40,000,000...and you lost it all back?"

Karas "Yes...it's true."

Thaskalos "You lost ALL OF IT? You didn't hold anything back?"i heard the exact same story, i think the guy was a shill.

Karas "Why? What would YOU have done."

Thaskalos "Well...I think I would have held on to a couple million...just to tide me over."

Karas (With a disgusted look) "That's why you'll never see $40,000,000 in your life."i heard the exact same story, i think the guy was a shill

lamboguy
04-13-2015, 05:09 AM
this past weekend over 60,000 people showed up in Hot Springs to Oaklawn to bet on horse racing, another 40,000 crammed into Keeneland in Lexington Kentucky. over 10,000 people went to racetracks in Florida. simulcast facilities in New Jersey were packed.

all i can say is the games not hard and you're not barred

proximity
11-07-2015, 02:45 AM
True story...and I think I told this story here before:

I met Archie Karas in Vegas about 10 years ago. We were introduced by a friend of mine who knew Archie well. All I knew about him was what I had read in a couple of books. We sat down to eat dinner...and I started asking him questions about his legendary winning streak at Binnion's...where Archie supposedly had won all the $5,000 chips in the casino. Our conversation went like this:

Thaskalos "Archie...is it true that you were up $40,000,000...and you lost it all back?"

Karas "Yes...it's true."

Thaskalos "You lost ALL OF IT? You didn't hold anything back?"

Karas "Why? What would YOU have done."

Thaskalos "Well...I think I would have held on to a couple million...just to tide me over."

Karas (With a disgusted look) "That's why you'll never see $40,000,000 in your life."

sorry to "sru" the thread, but this morning I was reading in cardplayer that this guy has now been placed in Nevada's black book.

kind of a sad ending to an amazing story.

The Judge
11-07-2015, 07:49 AM
Well I know for sure the Casinos think so, and they should know!

Why else would they go from booking horses to pari-mutuel wagering?

Does anyone besides me remember when they took a huge lost on some races then blamed it on "horse race fixing and wouldn't pay out" called them "steam horses" all of Las Vegas and Reno stop taking bets from Northern California tracks. If we are all such losers why not book the bets? They cried for pari-mutuel wagering because they were losing money to a new breed of handicapper guys whose shoes weren't run over, weren't eating out of Ravioli cans or blaming loses on the jockey, the trainer stiffing the horses saving them for the next race etc.

What really was happening was that money was bet in Reno and Vegas instead of the track so that the odds wouldn't go down. They weren't steam horses " just handicappers looking for the best odds. The horse still had to win.

Remember the "The Sports of Kings" top of the line casino in Las Vegas dedicate to the horse player? Any bet you wanted to make they would try to accommodate you. The odds on the board when you bet were the odds you got no matter what the final odds where? They went broke before I could get there! It was my understanding that horse players were "winning" and that is why they went broke. I did get to drive by, but it seemed to be a beautiful place and a real casino it looked new it was not a dump.

Why is it so hard? Well they make me bet against you in a pool of our money, then charge an ever increasing take for the favor. Yes that's hard.

PowerUpPaynter
11-07-2015, 07:56 AM
Not only that, but exotics kill bankrolls quicker than simple win bets.



you have no idea how many times iv said to myself " i should of just bet that horse to win" and instead keep playing these exactas and tris etc... sometimes i think just simple win bets and pick 3 or pick 4 bets are the way to go

lamboguy
11-07-2015, 08:56 AM
Well I know for sure the Casinos think so, and they should know!

Why else would they go from booking horses to pari-mutuel wagering?

Does anyone besides me remember when they took a huge lost on some races then blamed it on "horse race fixing and wouldn't pay out" called them "steam horses" all of Las Vegas and Reno stop taking bets from Northern California tracks. If we are all such losers why not book the bets? They cried for pari-mutuel wagering because they were losing money to a new breed of handicapper guys whose shoes weren't run over, weren't eating out of Ravioli cans or blaming loses on the jockey, the trainer stiffing the horses saving them for the next race etc.

What really was happening was that money was bet in Reno and Vegas instead of the track so that the odds wouldn't go down. They weren't steam horses " just handicappers looking for the best odds. The horse still had to win.

Remember the "The Sports of Kings" top of the line casino in Las Vegas dedicate to the horse player? Any bet you wanted to make they would try to accommodate you. The odds on the board when you bet were the odds you got no matter what the final odds where? They went broke before I could get there! It was my understanding that horse players were "winning" and that is why they went broke. I did get to drive by, but it seemed to be a beautiful place and a real casino it looked new it was not a dump.

Why is it so hard? Well they make me bet against you in a pool of our money, then charge an ever increasing take for the favor. Yes that's hard.i remember all that but i also remember when you went to the race track and there was a daily double and 3 perfecta's and the takeout was only 10% on all of that and no rebates. today you have 20 different ways to make bets on every race with takeouts as high as 33% some places on their multiple exotic wagers. even though rebates can bring you to the 10 % its not the same. the rebate players will eat up the non rebate players and knock them out of the box. today the rebate players bat each other's brains out and they go broke as well.

this past meet at Keeneland handle was down about 10%, believe me that was no accident. i am also seeing casino revenues way down in this country for the past and current quarter as well.

ikeika
11-07-2015, 01:05 PM
I remember

thaskalos
11-07-2015, 01:13 PM
Question: What do a professional horseplayer and a medium pizza have in common?

Answer: Neither one can feed a family of four.

ReplayRandall
11-07-2015, 01:19 PM
Question: What do a professional horseplayer and a medium pizza have in common?

Answer: Neither one can feed a family of four.

Q: What's the difference between prayer in church and prayer at a race track?

A: At the track, you really mean it!

Stillriledup
11-07-2015, 01:31 PM
Question: What do a professional horseplayer and a medium pizza have in common?

Answer: Neither one can feed a family of four.

How do you become a millionaire at the racetrack?

Start with 2 million.

ReplayRandall
11-07-2015, 01:36 PM
How do you become a millionaire at the racetrack?

Start with 2 million.

Q: How do you get a horse player off your front porch?

A: Pay him for the Pizza.

ronsmac
11-07-2015, 05:08 PM
i remember all that but i also remember when you went to the race track and there was a daily double and 3 perfecta's and the takeout was only 10% on all of that and no rebates. today you have 20 different ways to make bets on every race with takeouts as high as 33% some places on their multiple exotic wagers. even though rebates can bring you to the 10 % its not the same. the rebate players will eat up the non rebate players and knock them out of the box. today the rebate players bat each other's brains out and they go broke as well.

this past meet at Keeneland handle was down about 10%, believe me that was no accident. i am also seeing casino revenues way down in this country for the past and current quarter as well.Wow that was a long time ago. I think N.y. raised their takeout to 15% in the 50s. I know I read a book by Ainslie once written in the 60s and it was already 17% at many tracks by then. Md was 15% in the early 70s and 17 % by mid70s. To be around in the day of 10% take must have been nice. I hope to live as long as you.

proximity
11-07-2015, 08:28 PM
Q: What's the difference between prayer in church and prayer at a race track?

A: At the track, you really mean it!

lol rr your post reminds me of the now shuttered pen otw at chambersburg.

today it's a church called destiny church and i whenever the topic comes up i always joke that i think there was harder praying when the place was an off track.

chambersburg today sans tvs and autotote machines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3-SasB6IPU

watch closely and you may see the ghost of my bankroll floating in the background. :)