Woodbine adds thoroughbred $0.20 Pick 5

[Al Gobbi]

Woodbine Entertainment Group (WEG) today announced the addition of an new wager to its daily betting menu.

The $0.20 Thoroughbred Pick 5 will require horseplayers to select the winner of five consecutive races, starting from Race 2 through Race 6. The new wager, which will offer a 20-cent minimum, makes its debut on Saturday, April 11, opening day of the 2015 Thoroughbred meet.

The $0.20 Thoroughbred Pick 5 will have a 25% takeout.

http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/Woodbine/RaceTrackNewsPage.aspx?NewsId=f6ce8a0f-16c4-48b2-8f07-c12cc8aedb8d

[Stillriledup]

25%?

Isn't the industry "Standard" 14?

*emoticon with the little man shrugging shoulders with arms horizontal to the ground and palms facing in the air saying "dunno"*

[DeanT]

The complaints are being logged. This is well outside the takeout norm that regular customers have expected from racetracks with regards to the pick 5.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2015/04/bettor-alert-woodbine-comes-after.html

[Stillriledup]

The complaints are being logged. This is well outside the takeout norm that regular customers have expected from racetracks with regards to the pick 5.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2015/04/bettor-alert-woodbine-comes-after.html

Not only that, but the 20 cent minimum makes it "easier" to hit, its less "lucrative" at the top of the oddsboard which defeats the purpose to begin with. The idea is to maybe make a life changing score, people want to win tens of thousands on this bet and its possible with a 50 cent base, no need to have this at 20 cents. Personally i would prefer it to be a 1 dollar minimum, but even at 50 cents its still hard and still can pay very well, but at 20 cents, no need to lower it that much imo.

[happy camper]

25% takeout is high.

Let them try the 20 cents and see how it pans out, like Hawthorne. I'd imagine the pools would be higher. How much? I'm not sure of the top of my head.

[SandyW]

This is not good news for the horseplayers that play Woodbine. Just another sucker bet with this very high takeout of 25%.

[Stillriledup]

This is not good news for the horseplayers that play Woodbine. Just another sucker bet with this very high takeout of 25%.

I agree. If SA, Golden Gate, Aqu and some other track have a very low takeout on the pick 5, why would anyone spend time betting and handicapping this pick 5 with a takeout that's 10 percent higher.

[olddaddy]

People with low bankrolls will be able to play this bet like the big boys do for a buck. Yes the take out is high but some people that would like to play 5's cant because of higher wager amount at other tracks. I'm sure woodbine did their homework on this.

[appistappis]

People with low bankrolls will be able to play this bet like the big boys do for a buck. Yes the take out is high but some people that would like to play 5's cant because of higher wager amount at other tracks. I'm sure woodbine did their homework on this.


woodbine do their homework....that's a laugh, we've been waiting a couple of years for them to "roll out" the 20 cent supers on all the tracks we play.

[tanner12oz]

I agree. If SA, Golden Gate, Aqu and some other track have a very low takeout on the pick 5, why would anyone spend time betting and handicapping this pick 5 with a takeout that's 10 percent higher.

because most of the betting public thinks takeout is Chinese food. Everyone involved should know but if you took a poll at the track asking the takeout of the pools being bet into I think you'd be lucky to find 1 person who could tell you.

[DeltaLover]

Woodbine Entertainment Group (WEG) today announced the addition of an new wager to its daily betting menu.

The $0.20 Thoroughbred Pick 5 will require horseplayers to select the winner of five consecutive races, starting from Race 2 through Race 6. The new wager, which will offer a 20-cent minimum, makes its debut on Saturday, April 11, opening day of the 2015 Thoroughbred meet.

The $0.20 Thoroughbred Pick 5 will have a 25% takeout.

http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/Woodbine/RaceTrackNewsPage.aspx?NewsId=f6ce8a0f-16c4-48b2-8f07-c12cc8aedb8d

Another step towards the wrong direction

[Robert Fischer]

Trying out smaller minimum denominations in certain markets could be a good thing for the game, but not as a 'vehicle' for high takeout.

This feels like a sucker bet.

Hard to believe that this was an error, where someone with WEG made an innocent mistake, and accidentally used an obscenely high takeout rate.

We'll know, once we see whether or not they correct the takeout to the proper ~15% range.

Hopefully this wasn't a gimmick for a high-takeout-vehicle.

[Jeff P]

I received the following email from a Canadian horseplayer earlier today:

Jeff,

Woodbine has a longstanding policy of stealing from Canadian simulcast bettors unfortunate enough to bet triactors on races run at host tracks in the US.

The policy goes something like this:

Woodbine's triactor takeout is 27% and one of the worst anywhere.

But that's not heinous enough apparently.

When I as a Canadian simulcast bettor "win" a triactor on a race run at a US host track, and that track has a lower triactor takeout than Woodbine's 27%, my "winning" payoff is given a haircut.

Instead of receiving the actual payoff collected by bettors at the US host track, I as a Canadian receive a payoff that is adjusted downward artificially so as to make the payoff equal to what it would have been had the triactor takeout at the US host track been 27% like Woodbine.

What I want to know is this:

Now that Woodbine has a 25% takeout pick5, are they planning on turning 12%, 14%, and 15% takeout pick5's for races run at US host tracks into a Woodbine 25% takeout pick5?

JH in Toronto

I think I know the answer but I am going to contact track management at Woodbine before posting further.


-jp

.

[RXB]

I asked them already about the P5 takeouts, whether they were going to remain at their current levels or be increased to 25%. Here's the response:

Thank you for inquiring about the new Pick 5 at Woodbine. We regret that you are unhappy about our takeout rate. If you are not satisfied with how the takeout rates are being implemented, please feel free to voice your criticism to the Ontario Racing Commissions office (416-213-0520) or the Canadian Pari-Mutuel Agency (1-800-268-8835).

In other words, no real response at all. So I've repeated the question and asked for a straight answer rather than the typical Woodbine obfuscation. Still waiting.

By the way, any time there's a high takeout, you know that the horsemen's fingerprints are all over it. The triactor takeouts would be lower if WO management had gotten its way, but the horsemen refused.

[Stillriledup]

Trying out smaller minimum denominations in certain markets could be a good thing for the game, but not as a 'vehicle' for high takeout.

This feels like a sucker bet.

Hard to believe that this was an error, where someone with WEG made an innocent mistake, and accidentally used an obscenely high takeout rate.

We'll know, once we see whether or not they correct the takeout to the proper ~15% range.

Hopefully this wasn't a gimmick for a high-takeout-vehicle.

There are so many low takeout Pick 5s that many people might not even think to question the takeout on this bet, they may just bet it knowing that Pick 5s in 2015 are low takeout bets.

Its also a sucker bet because of the low minimum....if you get a couple bombs in the sequence you won't get as much as you would if this was a 50 cent pick 5 or even a 1 dollar pick 5.

[Robert Fischer]

There are so many low takeout Pick 5s that many people might not even think to question the takeout on this bet, they may just bet it knowing that Pick 5s in 2015 are low takeout bets.
Great point.
Had it not been for this thread, and other horseplayers, and Dean and Jeff at HANA (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2015/04/bettor-alert-woodbine-comes-after.html), I know I would have assumed that it was in line with the industry market.

Its also a sucker bet because of the low minimum....if you get a couple bombs in the sequence you won't get as much as you would if this was a 50 cent pick 5 or even a 1 dollar pick 5.
I'd be frustrated if the NY pick 5 or pick 6 minimums were lowered. You state some good reasons to keep them where they are.

However, one of the 'B' level tracks like Woodbine, could be interesting IMO.
If you have a big field and vulnerable heavy-favorite, you can still get nice returns from such a wager. You may not be the 'only' winner, but the pick-3 and pick-4 players who jumped in the pool, still can't afford to cover everything.
You can also avoid tax withholdings by judiciously managing your punches.

It becomes similar to the debate about dime supers.
I think it's interesting for 'B' tracks. I'm not 100% for it, but it would be a worthwhile experiment were the takeout not gouging the pools. :ThmbDown:

[Stillriledup]

Great point.
Had it not been for this thread, and other horseplayers, and Dean and Jeff at HANA (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2015/04/bettor-alert-woodbine-comes-after.html), I know I would have assumed that it was in line with the industry market.


I'd be frustrated if the NY pick 5 or pick 6 minimums were lowered. You state some good reasons to keep them where they are.

However, one of the 'B' level tracks like Woodbine, could be interesting IMO.
If you have a big field and vulnerable heavy-favorite, you can still get nice returns from such a wager. You may not be the 'only' winner, but the pick-3 and pick-4 players who jumped in the pool, still can't afford to cover everything.
You can also avoid tax withholdings by judiciously managing your punches.

It becomes similar to the debate about dime supers.
I think it's interesting for 'B' tracks. I'm not 100% for it, but it would be a worthwhile experiment were the takeout not gouging the pools. :ThmbDown:

There's certainly 2 sides to the argument of low minimums....i just think that not every bet in the entire world needs to be 'affordable' for every Tom, Dick and Harry. There needs to be some bets somewhere where the bet is 'expensive' to play and can reap great rewards if you hit it.

To me, the difference between the dime and 20 cent bets vs the 1 dollar and 2 dollar minimums is basically this. If you hit a super that's a buck minimum or a pick 6 that's a 2 dollar minimum, you hit that bet because you handicapped great and bet great and structured great. If a super is a dime, its quite possible you could hit that bet just on being able to buy it. If you can buy it, the bet becomes hittable on purchasing power and not handicapping power.

[tanner12oz]

There are so many low takeout Pick 5s that many people might not even think to question the takeout on this bet, they may just bet it knowing that Pick 5s in 2015 are low takeout bets.

Its also a sucker bet because of the low minimum....if you get a couple bombs in the sequence you won't get as much as you would if this was a 50 cent pick 5 or even a 1 dollar pick 5.

I want $1 minimums back..i know I'm.in the minority

[Stillriledup]

I want $1 minimums back..i know I'm.in the minority

I would love that. When you hit with a 1 buck minimum in an otherwise pretty hard bet, you know that you're sharing the pool with others who earned that win thru elite handicapping and wager structures and not someone who punched a bingo super box for 2.40 or bought the race for less than 200 bucks.

[Robert Fischer]

I would love that. When you hit with a 1 buck minimum in an otherwise pretty hard bet, you know that you're sharing the pool with others who earned that win thru elite handicapping and wager structures and not someone who punched a bingo super box for 2.40 or bought the race for less than 200 bucks.

It's not so much that the $1 or $2 min. means that you are sharing the P5 or P6 winnings with those most elite at picking exact winners,

-it's that as a properly funded player, you can afford to structure your tickets in such a way that the underfunded players cannot.

A couple 'B' or 'C' races, a fan-favorite down, and all of a sudden there is a lot of dead money in the pool for the taking.

Which is all fine with me.

I just don't mind seeing some lower minimums at some of the second tier tracks.

[Stillriledup]

It's not so much that the $1 or $2 min. means that you are sharing the P5 or P6 winnings with those most elite at picking exact winners,

-it's that as a properly funded player, you can afford to structure your tickets in such a way that the underfunded players cannot.

A couple 'B' or 'C' races, a fan-favorite down, and all of a sudden there is a lot of dead money in the pool for the taking.

Which is all fine with me.

I just don't mind seeing some lower minimums at some of the second tier tracks.

Tracks need to structure different minimums for different situations. Today there was a 4 horse field at SA where only 2 horses were being bet, and the top 2 chalks ran 1-2 and the super paid 69 cents for a dime. Did we really need a 10 cent minimum on THIS race? I say no.

[luisbe]

woodbine do their homework....that's a laugh, we've been waiting a couple of years for them to "roll out" the 20 cent supers on all the tracks we play.

...and we'll still don't have it in all of them so we can't bet with such as disadvantage.

[Robert Fischer]

Tracks need to structure different minimums for different situations. Today there was a 4 horse field at SA where only 2 horses were being bet, and the top 2 chalks ran 1-2 and the super paid 69 cents for a dime. Did we really need a 10 cent minimum on THIS race? I say no.
That would be a smart idea.

[pandy]

20 cent minimum is smart, majority of bettors favor lower minimums and that's a proven fact, 25% takeout isn't smart, it should be 15%.

[DeanT]

Beyer in Horseplayer Monthly said for players: "One hopeful sign is the success of the low takeout pick 5's"

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hanamonthly.html

Then Woodbine creates a 25% high takeout pick 5. I think, like a few said, they hope no one notices - that the player is now conditioned these are good bets, so why would they not be at Woodbine?

It's a good thing to remind friends and fellow customers that at this rake the payoffs are 20-30% lower, and much harder to beat. Just my opinion.

[cutchemist42]

Great point.
Had it not been for this thread, and other horseplayers, and Dean and Jeff at HANA (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2015/04/bettor-alert-woodbine-comes-after.html), I know I would have assumed that it was in line with the industry market.


I'd be frustrated if the NY pick 5 or pick 6 minimums were lowered. You state some good reasons to keep them where they are.

However, one of the 'B' level tracks like Woodbine, could be interesting IMO.
If you have a big field and vulnerable heavy-favorite, you can still get nice returns from such a wager. You may not be the 'only' winner, but the pick-3 and pick-4 players who jumped in the pool, still can't afford to cover everything.
You can also avoid tax withholdings by judiciously managing your punches.

It becomes similar to the debate about dime supers.
I think it's interesting for 'B' tracks. I'm not 100% for it, but it would be a worthwhile experiment were the takeout not gouging the pools. :ThmbDown:

Asd is not even close to a "B" track, but they are implementing .20 tri's and p3s/p4s. The p4 at ASD is 14% so Im interested to see how this change goes.

Overall, it is worrying about WO making US triactors with cheaper takeouts similar to their takeout. I wonder if they do this for other types of bets because I might avoid their ADW site if true.

[Frost king]

I know when I play Sam Houston off of Woodbine, the Pick 3/4 payoffs are different, that is why you can't access them before the race. If you can see the end payoffs, then they are not tacking anything onto US tracks. If you can't see the payoff, then they are racking something off.

[DeanT]

Asd is not even close to a "B" track, but they are implementing .20 tri's and p3s/p4s. The p4 at ASD is 14% so Im interested to see how this change goes.

Overall, it is worrying about WO making US triactors with cheaper takeouts similar to their takeout. I wonder if they do this for other types of bets because I might avoid their ADW site if true.


"Since some U.S. tracks have extraordinarily low takeout rates on some pools (e.g. Triactors, Superfectas) ...... WEG will use a minimum of 25% for the total takeout on these pools."

>> Been like that for some time. It's on the ADW site.

[RXB]

I know when I play Sam Houston off of Woodbine, the Pick 3/4 payoffs are different, that is why you can't access them before the race. If you can see the end payoffs, then they are not tacking anything onto US tracks. If you can't see the payoff, then they are racking something off.

This is not true. The payoffs are exactly the same on those P3's and P4's.

[DeanT]

Last evening at Sam Houston.

Race 9 pick 3 >>

$2 Pick 3 3-2-3 (3 correct) 1,530.60
That's $765.30 for $1

Reported on WDB site, same payoff:

$1 Pick 3 3 / 2 / 3 (3 of 3) $652.25

[cj]

Last evening at Sam Houston.

Race 9 pick 3 >>

$2 Pick 3 3-2-3 (3 correct) 1,530.60
That's $765.30 for $1

Reported on WDB site, same payoff:

$1 Pick 3 3 / 2 / 3 (3 of 3) $652.25

Woodbine likes to pretend to be player friendly.

[RXB]

Maybe they've changed. During the thoroughbred meet, the HPI payouts were the same as Sam Houston's payouts for P3/P4/P5/Hi-5. The payouts were different on tri's and super's.

[DeanT]

Maybe they've changed. During the thoroughbred meet, the HPI payouts were the same as Sam Houston's payouts for P3/P4/P5/Hi-5. The payouts were different on tri's and super's.

I don't doubt your statement. I just looked at last night's results.

I know when I play there (sparingly) I have been hurt on some payoffs at various tracks.

[RXB]

Last evening at Sam Houston.

Race 9 pick 3 >>

$2 Pick 3 3-2-3 (3 correct) 1,530.60
That's $765.30 for $1

Reported on WDB site, same payoff:

$1 Pick 3 3 / 2 / 3 (3 of 3) $652.25

Okay, now I'm really confused because I'm looking at the HPI site's Results tab and it says:

$1 Pick 3 3 / 2 / 3 (3 of 3) $765.35 (same as Sam Houston, allowing for nickel breakage instead of dime)

[DeanT]

Okay, now I'm really confused because I'm looking at the HPI site's Results tab and it says:

$1 Pick 3 3 / 2 / 3 (3 of 3) $765.35 (same as Sam Houston, allowing for nickel breakage instead of dime)

Might be a screwup somewhere. Who knows with Woodbine.

[RXB]

Okay, now I've figured it out. We're both betting through HPI but being in BC I'm going through the Hastings hub while you're betting via the Woodbine hub.

Hastings actually imposes slightly higher tri/super simulcast takeouts (27.3% and 26.3%) but they pay the same prices as the host track on the low takeout P3/P4/P5 wagers whereas you are getting dinged with the 25% Woodbine takeout on those wagers.

My apologies, Frost King. From where you're betting, you are indeed getting killed on the P3/P4/P5.

[DeanT]

Horseplayer problems. We're all getting screwed, but in different pools. I think your poison is less lethal than Frost King's tho :)

[RXB]

Horseplayer problems. We're all getting screwed, but in different pools. I think your poison is less lethal than Frost King's tho :)

Oh, for sure. I wouldn't bet tri's or super's at a 25% rake, so the extra 1-2% via Hastings means nothing to me because I ain't participating anyway. But I can get into all of those nice low-takeout pick pools at the going host rate, whereas anyone who has to bet through Woodbine is getting thoroughly jobbed on almost all bets at other tracks except for WPS/exactors/doubles.

I knew Woodbine was screwing their customers on the tri and super wagers but didn't realize until now that the whopping 25% minimum simulcast rake also applies to most other exotic wagers. Of course their communication on the subject is rather vague, no doubt intentionally so. Glad I'm betting through the Hastings hub instead.

[cutchemist42]

"Since some U.S. tracks have extraordinarily low takeout rates on some pools (e.g. Triactors, Superfectas) ...... WEG will use a minimum of 25% for the total takeout on these pools."

>> Been like that for some time. It's on the ADW site.

Wow, had no clue. So what pools are they doing this for? Like literally every pool? The thing is, I cant find where it says it on the ADW site. So if I go to an OTB or the track here, am I also getting screwed?

edit-Saw the last few posts, might look into this as I would be an ASD hub.

[cutchemist42]

Wow, never truly noticed this.

http://i.imgur.com/WWD8Omj.png

[DeanT]

Wow, never truly noticed this.

http://i.imgur.com/WWD8Omj.png

Tracks never hope you notice higher takeout. You just feel it in the bankroll, wondering why it goes down so fast.

[RXB]

Can someone report in from Alberta? I know that Northlands has a low WPS takeout and a very low P5 but every other wager on their races comes with a 24.8% takeout. Does this apply to simulcasting as well?

[cutchemist42]

Tracks never hope you notice higher takeout. You just feel it in the bankroll, wondering why it goes down so fast.

Still trying to find it on the site, but I now wonder if Ive been getting the exact same takeout I would at Asd or is it some madeup take? I also wonder if I place a bet on WO through HPI, do I get the Asd takeout on the win or the WO takeout on that win?

Im truly astounded, I figure if Im on an ADW, Im getting the track's rate. This pretty much confirms Im never making another deposit into HPI, and Im guessing Id be getting the same takeout at an OTB/Track so wont bother going there either.

Dont even feel guilty now about depositing now into Betfair or a sportsbook where they dont get a cut.

[Stillriledup]

nftzMoYCdjU

[cutchemist42]

Looks like through Manitoba/Asd, that the payouts match.

http://i.imgur.com/caDtDT7.png

http://i.imgur.com/2WQE1pz.png

[cutchemist42]

Looks like Hastings matches up too for Asd/Manitoba. TBH, it's a relief Asd/Hst matches up since I like hastings both for simulcast and the 1 afternoon when I went.

http://i.imgur.com/DRiEtFX.png

http://i.imgur.com/NJTYfQj.png

[RXB]

Looks like Hastings matches up too for Asd/Manitoba. TBH, it's a relief Asd/Hst matches up since I like hastings both for simulcast and the 1 afternoon when I went.


Canadian hubs adhere to the host track's takeout rates for races in Canada, so the payouts are uniform.

A table showing the actual takeout rates at each Canadian hub for wagers on US simulcast races would help to spread awareness. Perhaps HANA could help? Seems like a legit topic for a future magazine issue.

Encourage everyone to avoid WO's usurious 25% P5 pool, regardless of location. Frequenting high-takeout pools will only encourage them.

[cutchemist42]

Just so I understand, the difference between US and Canadian Win payouts is what then?

Example: Kee r7 today, winner off equibase is 13.0 and hpi is 12.4. That difference is not due to exchange rates right? Its due to difference between Asd's takeout and the tracks?

Im just trying to understand if every pool's takeout is automatically made identical to Asd's takeout structure?

[RXB]

It means that AsD has a minimum win takeout on US simulcast wagers that is higher than Keeneland's win takeout (16%). The only time breakage would enter into it, it would be in a Canadian's favour (nickel breakage instead of dime). I'm guessing that the exacta payout for that race is also less via AsD than the Keeneland payout ($30.20 for each $1).

Whereas via the Hastings HPI hub, I get the same $13 win payout as at Keeneland and actually 10 cents higher on the exacta payout because of nickel breakage. BC is definitely the best place to be in Canada if you're betting races from the USA. Tri's and super's are the only pools that I have to avoid.

[RXB]

Im just trying to understand if every pool's takeout is automatically made identical to Asd's takeout structure?

Post the AsD payouts and we can probably figure it out. But use a race where there are also P3 or P4 payouts, too.

[EagleEye Po]

Woodbines takout rates. Note Ontario residents are hit with an additional 1.3% takeout verse their international competitors!

ASSOCIATION PERCENTAGE, AND TAXATION/LEVY
The Woodbine Entertainment Group deducts and retains the following percentages from wagers placed at our own licensed sites which
are then shared between the horsepeople, host and simulcast associations and the Ontario Racing Commission.
WOODBINE LIVE: Win: 11.65%, Place, Show: 13.65%. Double & Exactor 17.2%. Triactor: 19.7% & Pick 4: 21.7%. Jackpot Hi-5: 11.7%. All others
23.0%
Horsepeople receive a further 2% on all wagers, except triactor wagering where it is 4%. The Ontario Provincial Government retains 0.5% on all bets
placed in Ontario. The Canadian Government (through a revolving fund cost recovery basis) retains 0.8% on all wagers placed in Canada for the
provision of drug control, photo-finish, video patrol and audit services.

[cutchemist42]

Hana track takeouts (seems like its adding to Asd's takeout being applied unless Im doing it wrong?)

Equibase

Win: 8.0
$2 Pick 3 2-4-6 (3 correct) 196.40
$0.50 Pick 4 1/2-2-2/3/4/7/8/12/13/14-6 (4 correct) 231.75
$2 Daily Double 4-6 21.40
$2 Exacta 6-4 23.80
$2 Superfecta 6-4-1-3 309.60
$2 Trifecta 6-4-1 95.20
Winning Breeder: Gary & Mary West Stables Inc.

Hpi/Asd

Win: 7.7
$1 Daily Double 4 / 6 $9.95
$1 Exactor 6 / 4 $11.15
$1 Pick 3 2 / 4 / 6 (3 of 3) $87.30
$1 Pick 4 1,2 / 2 / 2,3,4,7,8,12,13,14 / 6 (4 of 4) $412.00
$1 Superfecta 6 / 4 / 1 / 3 $137.65
$0.20 Superfecta 6 / 4 / 1 / 3 $27.53
$0.60 Triactor 6 / 4 / 1 $25.41

[cutchemist42]

It means that AsD has a minimum win takeout on US simulcast wagers that is higher than Keeneland's win takeout (16%). The only time breakage would enter into it, it would be in a Canadian's favour (nickel breakage instead of dime). I'm guessing that the exacta payout for that race is also less via AsD than the Keeneland payout ($30.20 for each $1).

Whereas via the Hastings HPI hub, I get the same $13 win payout as at Keeneland and actually 10 cents higher on the exacta payout because of nickel breakage. BC is definitely the best place to be in Canada if you're betting races from the USA. Tri's and super's are the only pools that I have to avoid.

So you then automatically get the Hst takeout on tris/supers? (Really the only scary takeouts Hst has)

[cutchemist42]

So Canadians here, are there better options for someone like me to use during the Winter when no Canadian tracks are running? Im actually fine with Hst during the Summer knowing I am getting their takeouts.

I mean, I can pretty surely say Ive lost out on a couple hundred over the past year based off some good DDs Ive had at Hou/Ret/Tam.

[RXB]

Hana track takeouts (seems like its adding to Asd's takeout being applied unless Im doing it wrong?)

Equibase

Win: 8.0
$2 Pick 3 2-4-6 (3 correct) 196.40
$0.50 Pick 4 1/2-2-2/3/4/7/8/12/13/14-6 (4 correct) 231.75
$2 Daily Double 4-6 21.40
$2 Exacta 6-4 23.80
$2 Superfecta 6-4-1-3 309.60
$2 Trifecta 6-4-1 95.20
Winning Breeder: Gary & Mary West Stables Inc.

Hpi/Asd

Win: 7.7
$1 Daily Double 4 / 6 $9.95
$1 Exactor 6 / 4 $11.15
$1 Pick 3 2 / 4 / 6 (3 of 3) $87.30
$1 Pick 4 1,2 / 2 / 2,3,4,7,8,12,13,14 / 6 (4 of 4) $412.00
$1 Superfecta 6 / 4 / 1 / 3 $137.65
$0.20 Superfecta 6 / 4 / 1 / 3 $27.53
$0.60 Triactor 6 / 4 / 1 $25.41

Using the payouts from the AsD HPI races that you've posted, the minimum takeout %'s at AsD for US simulcasts seem to be approximately as follows below, and I've also included (in brackets) the takeouts on AsD's own pools as provided by HANA:

Win 20 (19)
Ex 24 (26)
DD 25 (26)
P3 28 (29)
P4 28 (29)
Tri 28 (29)
Sup 28 (29)

So you're paying something very close to AsD's own utterly usurious takeouts on that Kee race. Whereas the actual Kee takeouts are 16% win, 19% for those other pools in that race. Ouch.

You'd think that the tracks would be bound to post their various takeout rates on their websites quite openly for all to see, but apparently when it comes to horse wagering it's perfectly acceptable to keep customers in the dark. Especially in Canada.

You could email Assiniboia and ask them for all of their specific takeout rates on their own races as well as on US simulcast races.

[cutchemist42]

Using the payouts from the AsD HPI races that you've posted, the minimum takeout %'s at AsD for US simulcasts seem to be approximately as follows below, and I've also included (in brackets) the takeouts on AsD's own pools as provided by HANA:

Win 20 (19)
Ex 24 (26)
DD 25 (26)
P3 28 (29)
P4 28 (29)
Tri 28 (29)
Sup 28 (29)

So you're paying something very close to AsD's own utterly usurious takeouts on that Kee race. Whereas the actual Kee takeouts are 16% win, 19% for those other pools in that race. Ouch.

You'd think that the tracks would be bound to post their various takeout rates on their websites quite openly for all to see, but apparently when it comes to horse wagering it's perfectly acceptable to keep customers in the dark. Especially in Canada.

You could email Assiniboia and ask them for all of their specific takeout rates on their own races as well as on US simulcast races.

Yep, HPI really was not clear enough enough on this. As someone who has been into this sport for two Summers now, I had no clue I wasnt paying the same takeouts on American tracks.

[RXB]

So you then automatically get the Hst takeout on tris/supers? (Really the only scary takeouts Hst has)

Actually, when I do the calculations the takeouts seem even worse for the US simulcast races via Hastings compared to Hastings live races. I get 30.3% for tri's and 27.3% for supers, compared to the bad-enough live takeouts of 27.3% and 26.3%. Insane to bet into those simulcast tri/super pools.

The other Hastings payouts on the US simulcasts, however, are identical to Keeneland's (except for nickel breakage advantages in Canada). Unlike Assiniboia where you're getting shafted all over the place.

[RXB]

Woodbines takout rates. Note Ontario residents are hit with an additional 1.3% takeout verse their international competitors!

ASSOCIATION PERCENTAGE, AND TAXATION/LEVY
The Woodbine Entertainment Group deducts and retains the following percentages from wagers placed at our own licensed sites which
are then shared between the horsepeople, host and simulcast associations and the Ontario Racing Commission.
WOODBINE LIVE: Win: 11.65%, Place, Show: 13.65%. Double & Exactor 17.2%. Triactor: 19.7% & Pick 4: 21.7%. Jackpot Hi-5: 11.7%. All others
23.0%
Horsepeople receive a further 2% on all wagers, except triactor wagering where it is 4%. The Ontario Provincial Government retains 0.5% on all bets
placed in Ontario. The Canadian Government (through a revolving fund cost recovery basis) retains 0.8% on all wagers placed in Canada for the
provision of drug control, photo-finish, video patrol and audit services.

The total Woodbine takeout percentages when everything is added up:

Win: 14.95
P/S: 16.95
Ex: 20.5
DD: 20.5
Tri: 25
P4: 25
P5: 25
Sup: 26.3
P3: 26.3

Plus as mentioned earlier, every US simulcast pool other than WPS/double/exactor/quinella, you pay a minimum of 25% through Woodbine.

[luisbe]

At least we do not pay any additional tax 'cause depending on the amount you win in USA tracks you pay tax on tax deducted amounts.

[Frost king]

Zero taxes on all winning wages, regardless of source. So if you hit a big P6, it is all yours. No reporting is done, whether it occurs at Woodbine, or any US/Foreign track. This applies to Americans playing in Canada also. Getting the money across the border is another issue.

[appistappis]

I'm surprised you guys are just on to this now. I've been complaining and bitching to woodbine and hpi for a long time. They just don't give a shit and like most things Canadian there is no alternative (I give some play to fivedimes) but would love a u.s. based AWD that would take us

rxr posted here earlier "In other words, no real response at all. So I've repeated the question and asked for a straight answer rather than the typical Woodbine obfuscation. Still waiting"

[RXB]

I'm surprised you guys are just on to this now. I've been complaining and bitching to woodbine and hpi for a long time. They just don't give a shit and like most things Canadian there is no alternative (I give some play to fivedimes) but would love a u.s. based AWD that would take us

rxr posted here earlier "In other words, no real response at all. So I've repeated the question and asked for a straight answer rather than the typical Woodbine obfuscation. Still waiting"

It's no wonder that they didn't respond. Because my email will have gone to someone in Ontario, and they'll be thinking, "What do you mean, asking if we are going to start charging 25% on the US tracks' P5 wagers? We ALREADY do that."

I was living in semi-blissful ignorance here in BC, not aware of how much worse the US simulcast takeout situation was in other parts of the country. Knowing what I now know, I can say for sure that if I lived in the prairie provinces I'd be gone from the game, period. Quite possibly done with it if I lived in Ontario, too. All I have to do here is stay out of the tri's and super's, which are wagers in which I have little to no interest anyway, so Hastings' extra rake on those doesn't affect me.

The whole thing speaks not only to the silliness of high takeouts but also to the lack of credibility and integrity displayed by the tracks as they effectively try to hide the information, and also the regulation/oversight agencies that allow them to do so.

This was from a HANA blog post last month. Sound familiar?

In the post "Stupid is a brand killer" a business author listed several ways to turn off customers.

"Charge different prices at different outlets and shrug your shoulders when you get found out."
and
"Put the important information in your terms and conditions, in little tiny type."

[cutchemist42]

It's no wonder that they didn't respond. Because my email will have gone to someone in Ontario, and they'll be thinking, "What do you mean, asking if we are going to start charging 25% on the US tracks' P5 wagers? We ALREADY do that."

I was living in semi-blissful ignorance here in BC, not aware of how much worse the US simulcast takeout situation was in other parts of the country. Knowing what I now know, I can say for sure that if I lived in the prairie provinces I'd be gone from the game, period. Quite possibly done with it if I lived in Ontario, too. All I have to do here is stay out of the tri's and super's, which are wagers in which I have little to no interest anyway, so Hastings' extra rake on those doesn't affect me.

The whole thing speaks not only to the silliness of high takeouts but also to the lack of credibility and integrity displayed by the tracks as they effectively try to hide the information, and also the regulation/oversight agencies that allow them to do so.

This was from a HANA blog post last month. Sound familiar?

In the post "Stupid is a brand killer" a business author listed several ways to turn off customers.

"Charge different prices at different outlets and shrug your shoulders when you get found out."
and
"Put the important information in your terms and conditions, in little tiny type."

I almost feel stupid for not noticing this after more than a year, but like what appis alluded to, obviously some understood.

I mean as a prarie bettor, for Winter racing,its either go through HPI and get hosed or go through betfair (limited to wins, but dont mind too much) or go through 5 dimes. Either way, they lost my money during those months.

In the Summer, I still at least have the Hastings pools which I follow anyway, and the ASD P4.

I just am surprised i never read these terms before, or realized the payouts. I kind of just see the winning bet and close the feed before seeing the track payout.

[DeanT]

A couple of the guys and gals are working to try and get them to at least be more transparent with their pick 5's. Post today at the HANA blog, and at a Canadian racing blog.

The poster makes a great point. I do not think - and we have heard this from everyone in the business, whether it be regulators, tracks or horsemen - it is not too much to ask tracks' place their takeout rates for all new bets on simulcast feeds, websites and all promotional materials. It's good business.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2015/04/woodbine-high-take-pick-5-comment-on.html

[SandyW]

A not to good of a handle of $28,278 on first day of the new .20 pick 5 bet at Woodbine already shows that the players are paying attention to new bets with very high takeouts.
With the takeout at 25% I don't expect this bet to be any kind of a winner for the track.
If Woodbine does not drop the takeout rate on this .20 pick 5 to around 15% to compete with other North America tracks this bet will die on the vine very quickly.

[RXB]

A couple of the guys and gals are working to try and get them to at least be more transparent with their pick 5's. Post today at the HANA blog, and at a Canadian racing blog.

The poster makes a great point. I do not think - and we have heard this from everyone in the business, whether it be regulators, tracks or horsemen - it is not too much to ask tracks' place their takeout rates for all new bets on simulcast feeds, websites and all promotional materials. It's good business.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2015/04/woodbine-high-take-pick-5-comment-on.html

Thanks. Could you point me to this "Canadian racing blog" where you commented?

The Canadian tracks (and HPI) should be required to have ALL takeouts posted in full for each wager in a very open and transparent manner online, for their own pools and for US simulcast pools. There's no legitimate reason for them to be permitted to keep their customers in the dark. And something like 90% of the handle is wagered online now, so just listing the takeouts in hard-copy fashion at the track doesn't cut it.

Most Canadian bettors are probably unaware of just how badly they are getting skimmed on US simulcast pools via Woodbine, Northlands and especially Assiniboia.

[appistappis]

previously woodbine did not have a pick 5 bet so when you hit for 464.30 at a U.S. track you got 464.30.....now you will get 9 to 13% less because they now have a pick 5.

they are conniving scum.

[Stillriledup]

previously woodbine did not have a pick 5 bet so when you hit for 464.30 at a U.S. track you got 464.30.....now you will get 9 to 13% less because they now have a pick 5.

they are conniving scum.

That's incredible. Calling them scum is an insult to scum.

[Frost king]

previously woodbine did not have a pick 5 bet so when you hit for 464.30 at a U.S. track you got 464.30.....now you will get 9 to 13% less because they now have a pick 5.

they are conniving scum.


Really? I bang on the Woodbine people whenever it is deserved, but stop spewing BULLSHIT! Do some homework. I checked the P5 at booth GP/TB/KEE and AQU, and they both paid the same whether you were in NY/Fla/Ky or at Woodbine on the simulcast.

[Some_One]

Really? I bang on the Woodbine people whenever it is deserved, but stop spewing BULLSHIT! Do some homework. I checked the P5 at booth GP/TB/KEE and AQU, and they both paid the same whether you were in NY/Fla/Ky or at Woodbine on the simulcast.

And when Ellis Park had their 4% takeout promo pick 4?

[appistappis]

Really? I bang on the Woodbine people whenever it is deserved, but stop spewing BULLSHIT! Do some homework. I checked the P5 at booth GP/TB/KEE and AQU, and they both paid the same whether you were in NY/Fla/Ky or at Woodbine on the simulcast.

we'll lets wait and see if they stay with that....using keeneland as an example you can see the woodbine underpays on the pick 3 and super and tri.

[RXB]

So, I was finally able to track down actual evidence via Ontario payouts on US simulcasts. Contrary to what someone posted on page two of this thread, Ontario doesn't skim extra on the US P4's. They skim from the P3, tri and super pools (25% minimum takeout), but not from other pools. For example, this is from Kee R9 yesterday, with Kee using 19% takeout on all exotic pools:

Kee/WO ($1 payouts)

Tri 475/439
Super 2022/1872
P3 419/387

The other payouts were the same.

So stay away from P3, tri & super pools if you play US races in Ontario and you'll be fine. In BC, just stay away from the tri & super. Manitoba... well, just stay away, because Assiniboia is using huge mandatory takeouts in almost every pool.

Question remains: why aren't all of the takeout rates posted IN FULL online by the tracks and by HPI in a very clear and easily accessible manner?

[cutchemist42]

So, I was finally able to track down actual evidence via Ontario payouts on US simulcasts. Contrary to what someone posted on page two of this thread, Ontario doesn't skim extra on the US P4's. They skim from the P3, tri and super pools (25% minimum takeout), but not from other pools. For example, this is from Kee R9 yesterday, with Kee using 19% takeout on all exotic pools:

Kee/WO ($1 payouts)

Tri 475/439
Super 2022/1872
P3 419/387

The other payouts were the same.

So stay away from P3, tri & super pools if you play US races in Ontario and you'll be fine. In BC, just stay away from the tri & super. Manitoba... well, just stay away, because Assiniboia is using huge mandatory takeouts in almost every pool.

Question remains: why aren't all of the takeout rates posted IN FULL online by the tracks and by HPI in a very clear and easily accessible manner?

Yep, there is no where I saw this on even signing up for HPI let alone later on when using the system. As of now, I'll be playing Hst through HPI but will be looking at a sportsbook/Betfair for American tracks. They have lost me as a customer in the Winter.

I think they were just banking on no one really finding out, which seems like its possible to happen.

[cutchemist42]

FWIW, emailed ASD and got this in reply

Hi cutchemist42,
Thank you for your note. As all tracks differ - a current listing of the takeout rates for each individual track can be found in the program kiosks located on track and at all the off track betting locations. If I can be of any further assistance - please do not hesitate to let me know.
Regards,
Sharon


Sharon Gulyas
Vice President, Finance & Gaming
Assiniboia Downs
3975 Portage Avenue
Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3K 2E9
Phone: 204.885-3330 (x 205)
Fax: 204.831-5348"

[RXB]

I looked and couldn't find takeout info of any kind on the Hastings, Northlands or Assiniboia sites. It is posted on the Woodbine site but the info is piecemeal, incomplete and isn't easy to find.

The HPI site has no takeout information.

The vast majority of wagering is online but the Canadian tracks/ADW can't be bothered (and apparently aren't required) to post the requisite information. Unreal.

[peislander]

So, I was finally able to track down actual evidence via Ontario payouts on US simulcasts. Contrary to what someone posted on page two of this thread, Ontario doesn't skim extra on the US P4's.


That is not true. Keeneland P4 is a .50 bet. Woodbine is a .60 bet. Keeneland shows a payoff of 935.30. WEG shows a payoff of 1039.23. Common denominator would be $3. Keeneland is 5611.80, Woodbine is 5196.15.

The way it works (or use to when I played). Was the pools that are displayed you get track odds. Win, Ex, DD. All other pools are topped to WEG takeout levels.

ASD and Hastings host their own pools, that is why they are different than WEG's.

Being from PEI, my wagers were hosted and went through WEG. PEI does not have it's own betting platform.

[peislander]

The example above is from the late pick 4 on Sunday.

$0.50 Pick 4 8-5-6-6 (4 correct) 935.30
$0.60 Pick 4 8 / 5 / 6 / 6 (4 of 4) $1,039.23

[RXB]

That is not true. Keeneland P4 is a .50 bet. Woodbine is a .60 bet. Keeneland shows a payoff of 935.30. WEG shows a payoff of 1039.23. Common denominator would be $3. Keeneland is 5611.80, Woodbine is 5196.15.

The way it works (or use to when I played). Was the pools that are displayed you get track odds. Win, Ex, DD. All other pools are topped to WEG takeout levels.

ASD and Hastings host their own pools, that is why they are different than WEG's.

Being from PEI, my wagers were hosted and went through WEG. PEI does not have it's own betting platform.

Here are screenshots from Equibase's Kee charts and the WO website's results for that race. According to these, the P4 and P5 payouts are the same. The tri, super and P3 payouts are different.

[peislander]

Well, I certainly have different rates. That is a change for Ontario residents. Mine are from the previous formula that I discussed. Interesting.

[DeanT]

Maybe Platt will find out for sure when he contacts them, along with the Canadian Parimutuel Association. I am sure he will post here when he finds out.

As for the Pick 4 now being the same in the US and at Woodbine, I think that might be a recent change. Customers no doubt have complained why they have to share their pick 4 hits with Woodbine. Everyone knows a $1 pick 4 paying $1,000 on the simo screen and cashing $950 (or whatever) is easy to see and feel.

I don't really know tho. But with pick 4's so popular, I could see Woodbine acquiescing on that pool.

One thing is for sure: This is exactly the type of behavior that has driven so many players offshore.

[Frost king]

Look guys, if you are not in Ontario, you can't blame WEG. I have played on WEG since it's inception. The Payoffs for Keeneland, I repeat, are the same as you have on track at Keeneland. If your province has a different tax structure on Par-mutuel wagering, don't blame WEG. The payouts for Keeneland on the P4/5 were EXACTLY the same here in ONTARIO as they were on track in Kentucky. The Payoffs in Keeneland for Sundays P4 for 0.50 was $1165.55, and $935.30. At Woodbine, the base bet payoff is $1. The corresponding Payoffs were $2331.15, and 1870.65. In fact, you got paid off, an extra nickle.

[DeanT]

The Payoffs for Keeneland, I repeat, are the same as you have on track at Keeneland.

The payoffs for the pick 4 and 5, as noted above, were the same. It's the other payoffs, as RXB noted above, that are different.

These are the Woodbine Ontario Payouts versus Keeneland on track payouts.

Keeneland $2 super Sat race 5: $495.80

Paid out at Woodbine: $459.20

Tri: $136 at Keeneland, $126 at Woodbine.

Pick 3: $199.60 at Keeneland, $184.90 at Woodbine.

[maclr11]

Shouldn't there be a dollar conversion from us to canadian

[RXB]

Shouldn't there be a dollar conversion from us to canadian

That's all done via net pool pricing. If you bet two Canadian dollars on a horse at 5.8/1 and it wins, you get back $13.60 Canadian. If you bet $2 US on that horse, you get back $13.60 in American funds.

[taxicab]

A not to good of a handle of $28,278 on first day of the new .20 pick 5 bet at Woodbine already shows that the players are paying attention to new bets with very high takeouts.
With the takeout at 25% I don't expect this bet to be any kind of a winner for the track.
If Woodbine does not drop the takeout rate on this .20 pick 5 to around 15% to compete with other North America tracks this bet will die on the vine very quickly.


This...

[DeanT]

There's a Pimlico 12% takeout pick 5 carryover tomorrow. Woodbine/HPI doesn't carry the bet. But they create a 25% pick 5 you can bet into.

My oh my.

[Stillriledup]

There's a Pimlico 12% takeout pick 5 carryover tomorrow. Woodbine/HPI doesn't carry the bet. But they create a 25% pick 5 you can bet into.

My oh my.

That's bad.

[luisbe]

Some explanations here: http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/Mohawk/Betting/USCommonPool/Pages/GeneralQuestions.aspx