Mow McCain is unaware of our soldier's sacrifice

[Secretariat]

First the chickenhawks attacked Max Clelland's patriotism, then Kerry's credentials, now it's McCain whio is unaware of sacrifice.

Crazy world. It seems those who duck out of war are always more informed than those who've been there.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_go_co/hastert_mccain_2

[schweitz]

Sec,

Not sure what your point is--these guys are arguing over tax cuts.

[JustRalph]

Sec

You can bring up Max Cleland all you want. He dropped his own Grenade.....and blew himself up. That does not make you a hero. It makes you a victim of a tragic accident and a shitty juggler. Nothing more.........

[Secretariat]

Unbeleivable.

[Lance]

Yep. Unbelievable. Also untrue as written. Ralph, shouldn't you check your facts before you make jokes about men who are missing limbs?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Lance
Yep. Unbelievable. Also untrue as written. Ralph, shouldn't you check your facts before you make jokes about men who are missing limbs?

those are the facts my friends.........he jumped out of a Helicopter and dropped a grenade........he reached down to pick it up and it exploded..........he was blown up by his own grenade........there are some reports that say another soldier dropped the grenade......but Cleland says he didn't know where it came from, he saw it and when he went to pick it up, it exploded. It was not in battle.....they were on their off time........actually it has been reported they were on their way to a drinking session.. Look it up and you will find this is how he lost his limbs.

He got a bronze star for being at Khe Sahn........so did a bunch of guys. You don't get referred to as a hero by losing your legs and an arm while off duty.

There are over 13k U.S. Military personnel who have been killed in Training accidents.............you don't hear them being referred to as heros..........

[Lance]

Ralph, "It has been reported'?

Is this passive language designed to hide that it was reported by Ann Coulter?

Here is one article among many. You are much, much better with computers than I am. Do an honest search and report back, please.

Joe Conason
The New York Observer
02.18.04 Printer-friendly version
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Vile Ann Coulter smears a war hero
Once you've accused half the country of treason, even Max Cleland is fair game


Finding the bottom of American politics these days is as easy as looking up the latest column by Ann Coulter. In fact, it’s the same thing. Her act may be wearing thin now that she has accused half of the population of treason, but don’t underestimate the kooky commentator. Just the other day, she again managed to shock the conscience of any decent citizen who happened to read her latest screed.
Her current target is Max Cleland, the former United States Senator who left three limbs in Vietnam. The courageous Mr. Cleland prevailed over his terrible injury, and the depression that followed; he was appointed Secretary of Veterans Affairs in the Clinton administration and then elected to the Senate from his home state of Georgia.

But Ms. Coulter considers him deserving of scorn and denigration -- and lies about his service, despite his sacrifice -- for one reason alone: Mr. Cleland is a Democrat who dares to speak out against the President.

There was a time when Republicans were the first to defend veterans and the last to attack anyone who had served, regardless of partisan affiliation. That tradition is dead, however, in part because so many of the party’s extremist leaders, who talk loudly about war, managed to avoid military service when their time came. George W. Bush, of course, served far from Vietnam in the Texas Air National Guard’s "champagne unit" at Ellington Air Force Base, apparently thanks to the intervention of his father’s powerful friends.

Now the Democrats seem likely to nominate John F. Kerry, the Massachusetts Senator who fought in Vietnam and came home bearing wounds and decorations. Conservatives already have begun to denigrate Mr. Kerry because he joined the antiwar movement when he returned. (The current Republican leadership had their own quiet little antiwar movement: They simply declined to fight, although they thought the war was being fought to save us from godless Chinese communism.)

Inevitably, Mr. Kerry’s war record will be compared with that of the man who calls himself the "war President." By publicly demanding answers about Mr. Bush’s spotty Guard record, Mr. Cleland attracted the malignant attention of Ms. Coulter.

"Max Cleland should stop allowing Democrats to portray him as a war hero who lost his limbs taking enemy fire on the battlefields of Vietnam," she writes, claiming that he "lost three limbs in an accident during a routine non-combat mission where he was about to drink beer with friends. He saw a grenade on the ground and picked it up. He could have done that at Fort Dix. In fact, Cleland could have dropped a grenade on his foot as a National Guardsman. ... Luckily for Cleland’s political career and current pomposity about Bush, he happened to do it while in Vietnam."

Denigrating Mr. Cleland became fashionable in Republican circles in the fall of 2002, when his opponents ran television commercials that flashed his face on the screen with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. That ad offended The Gainesville Times, a daily newspaper in northeast Georgia, which called it misleading, offensive and "an irresponsible and repugnant attack on Cleland’s character and sense of patriotism."

But that repugnant ad helped Saxby Chambliss -- a pompous hack who had obtained several draft deferments -- win the Senate race against Mr. Cleland. According to the Coulter definition, that made the ad "patriotic."

What, then, is the truth about Mr. Cleland? On June 9, 1968, the U.S. Army awarded Capt. Max Cleland a Silver Star "for gallantry in action" at the battle of Khe Sanh, one of the war’s fiercest firefights.

According to the citation, he "distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous action. ... When the battalion command post came under a heavy enemy rocket and mortar attack, Capt. Cleland, disregarding his own safety, exposed himself to the rocket barrage as he left his covered position to administer first aid to his wounded comrades. He then assisted in moving the injured personnel to covered positions. Continuing to expose himself, Capt. Cleland organized his men into a work party to repair the battalion communications equipment which had been damaged by enemy fire. His gallant action is in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflects great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army."

The 25-year-old captain had volunteered to help relieve the Marines and the Army’s First Cavalry Division trapped at Khe Sanh. The cited action took place four days before the explosion that ripped off both his legs and an arm. The accident occurred while he was disembarking from a transport helicopter, when he reached for a grenade that he thought had dropped from his gear. It had actually been dropped by a new infantryman who had "improperly prepared the grenade pin for easy detonation."

Yes, Mr. Cleland is a true hero. And those who would mock him don’t know what patriotism means.

[JustRalph]

Lance

I have read that article and more. It doesn't change how the guy lost his limbs. either him, or one of his buddies dropped a grenade while exiting a helicopter. He was injured off duty....in a sad, sad accident. But don't call him a hero for it. Cleland even describes the accident the same way. End of story.

[Lance]

The end of which story, your first one or your second? They have changed, Ralph. I hope it's the end of "juggling" jokes about men who won medals and lost limbs.

[Secretariat]

No JR...no the end of story. My post said nothing about Clelland being a hero (although any one who can win the Silver Star in my book is a hero), but it was about the attacks on his patriotism. Here's my post again:

"First the chickenhawks attacked Max Clelland's patriotism, then Kerry's credentials, now it's McCain whio is unaware of sacrifice.

Crazy world. It seems those who duck out of war are always more informed than those who've been there."

My point was just as in Conason's article that Lance has posted. those such as Coulter, (and now Hastert) who never were i nthe service or fought are somehow now becomign real brave off the battlefield and questioning the patriotism of brave individuals like Kerry, Clelland, and now Hastert beleives John McCain doesn't understand what "sacrifice" is about. It's the height of hypocrisy to say this to a man who was imprisoned in Hanoi Hilton during the Vietnam War. It shows unbeleivable stupidity on the part of the Speaker. Unbeleivable.

The problem is these guys like to wrap themselves i nthe flag, but when it comes to bring up an amendment on life insurance for our reservists fighting, that is squashed in the house in favor of more money for STAR WARS. The guy in the field gets screwed again in favor of the defense contractor.

[JustRalph]

Well Girls.......... I have been in the Service and I can tell you that people who are blown up by their own grenades are not called a hero. We don't give cops who shoot themselves in the foot while off duty medals either. The point is......Cleland is trotted out like he is some kind of Hero because he lost his limbs. I applaud his actions at Khe Sahn. He earned his medal. But it doesn't change that he is a wrong headed politician who got tossed out on his ear for straying from his base. Ditto for Kerry....and his so called "hero" status. It is funny as hell that you wingnuts who thought Clinton was the best thing since sliced bread, didn't give a damn when he was writing letters about how he loathed the military etc......you know, the same military that Cleland was a member of, even while Clinton was writing his letter....but now suddenly you are ready to hand the country over to a man who has admitted to committing what he calls "atrocities" ........you use the hero label when it suits your cause. You are just plain duplicitous.........it is rampant in your beliefs, your positions and everything you stand for.

[Lance]

Ralph: You will be so much more impressive when you reply to the posts as they were written instead of making assumptions about the people who wrote them. Skipping jokes about men who lost their limbs will also help.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Lance
Ralph: You will be so much more impressive when you reply to the posts as they were written instead of making assumptions about the people who wrote them. Skipping jokes about men who lost their limbs will also help.

I am not trying to impress you........I replied........do you think that I for one minute think that I can change your mind.......yeah right?

[Secretariat]

Lance, this is the fanaticism that we are dealing with.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Secretariat
First the chickenhawks attacked Max Clelland's patriotism, then Kerry's credentials, now it's McCain whio is unaware of sacrifice.

Crazy world. It seems those who duck out of war are always more informed than those who've been there.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_go_co/hastert_mccain_2

First of all it was McCain that brought up sacrifice--he doesn't want to continue the tax cuts--he thinks the American public should be sacrificing in a time of war and that brought the response from Hastert which did not question McCain's sacrifice.

The story is about tax cuts--nobody is questioning any war hero's sacrifice.

Nice spin, though.

I know of no reason that somebody who has not served can't have an opinion on war--if its only those of us who have served in wartime that can debate it, then thats going to be a very small percentage of the population.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Lance, this is the fanaticism that we are dealing with.

yeah..... I am a fanatic........ nice try..........you two can go get a room now.............

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by schweitz
First of all it was McCain that brought up sacrifice--he doesn't want to continue the tax cuts--he thinks the American public should be sacrificing in a time of war and that brought the response from Hastert which did not question McCain's sacrifice.

The story is about tax cuts--nobody is questioning any war hero's sacrifice.

Nice spin, though.

I know of no reason that somebody who has not served can't have an opinion on war--if its only those of us who have served in wartime that can debate it, then thats going to be a very small percentage of the population.

I didn't say anything about who first brought up sacrifice. Jeez, read my post. Here it is again:

"First the chickenhawks attacked Max Clelland's patriotism, then Kerry's credentials, now it's McCain whio is unaware of sacrifice.

Crazy world. It seems those who duck out of war are always more informed than those who've been "

Now, here's what Hasstert said:

"Then, more seriously, he [Hastert] said: "If you want to see sacrifice, John McCain ought to visit our young men and women at Walter Reed and Bethesda (two Washington area military hospitals). There's the sacrifice in this country. We're trying to make sure that they have the ability to fight this war, that they have the wherewithal to be able to do it. And at the same time, we have to react to keep this country strong not only militarily but economically. We want to be able to have the flexibility to do it. That's my reply to John McCain."

I think John McCain is quite aware of the meaning of sacrifice of our soldiers. It's an insult by Hastert, a chickenhawk, to make such an absurd statement that John McCain has to go to Walter Reed to understand the meaning of sacrifice.

I never said people who didn't go to war can't have an opinion on war. However, I get offended when those opinions such as Hastert's so disregard men who have been there so flippantly. I'm seeing a trend i don't like and that is these chickenhawks who have never been to war readily dismissing men or sending out staffer minions to denigrate those who have fought in wars. Even Clinton never dengrated Silver Star recipients. This is a new low we've reached.

I know you think this is just about tax cuts, and that is the issue McCain is making, but Hastert is the one who tried to tie it into soldier sacrifices at Walter Reed. Hastert could have said John, "We're funding the troops at full strength, and we have a war going on, and a rough economy to deal with. You're right John, we've got to show some fiscal responsiblity to reduce the deficit and get spending under control, but the economy needs a boost, people need more money in their pockets, and we need to balance priorities."

But Hastert didn't say that. Hastert implied that McCain needs to go down to Walter Reed so he understands what sacrifice is. It's a typical chickenhawk remark, and it was demeaning to McCain who was only attempting to be fiscally responsible.

It ain't no spin brother, it's the way Hastert and Delay run the House. No civility, and no respect, but this one really got to me.

[schweitz]

I think its all pretty stupid and and don't see where anybody should get bent out shape one way or the other over it.

[Lance]

Ralph is no fanatic. All Ralph did was tell a "juggling" joke about a decorated veteran who has one arm and no legs. A fanatic would go after a decorated veteran who has no limbs. Ralph would never do that. Ralph has standards, you see.

[Secretariat]

I stand corrected.

[andicap]

Lance please email me.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by andicap
Lance please email me.

fill him in on me Andi..........don't leave anything out..........