Penn National Vets in very hot water

[thespaah]

Story in bloodhorse.com regarding cheating scandal involving 4 Penn National veterinarians...
Bad news....How long was this going on and how long have the betting public and the owners/ trainers that raced clean were getting hosed.
Good news. The crooks got caught. And from the looks of it, these people are up on federal charges.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/90991/us-alleges-conspiracy-at-penn-national?source=rss

[chadk66]

every vet does this. nothing new to see here.

[lamboguy]

every vet does this. nothing new to see here.this might be legal, but it doesn't make it right for the horses along with other treatments they call therapeudic.

[Ruffian1]

Story in bloodhorse.com regarding cheating scandal involving 4 Penn National veterinarians...
Bad news....How long was this going on and how long have the betting public and the owners/ trainers that raced clean were getting hosed.
Good news. The crooks got caught. And from the looks of it, these people are up on federal charges.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/90991/us-alleges-conspiracy-at-penn-national?source=rss

Q. Bad news....How long was this going on and how long have the betting public and the owners/ trainers that raced clean were getting hosed.

A. About 40 years that my first hand knowledge goes back too. Both Chad and I have discussed how this was done a month or 2 before the report comes out and validates exactly what we both said.
You have 2 former trainers that both left the game they put so much into because of this crap explaining in detail all the dirty secrets that are asked. Then, when a "report" comes out, people have questions? Really?
They arrested 4 but there are plenty more out there. As I have said, EVERYBODY on the backside knows exactly who these people are. Nobody on the backside is surprised .
Pretty sure Chad is doing well in his new occupation and I know I am. I sure hope you are Chad. Most former trainers that have 1/2 an ounce of sense, work circles around their competition which usually leads to financial gain and a successful business.
So yes, 4 are arrested with a boatload more waiting in the wings. Plenty of trainers as well. Remember, it takes 2 to tango. So nice start, albeit 25 years too late. But let's not be surprised. Chad and I sure as hell are not.

[chadk66]

Q. Bad news....How long was this going on and how long have the betting public and the owners/ trainers that raced clean were getting hosed.

A. About 40 years that my first hand knowledge goes back too. Both Chad and I have discussed how this was done a month or 2 before the report comes out and validates exactly what we both said.
You have 2 former trainers that both left the game they put so much into because of this crap explaining in detail all the dirty secrets that are asked. Then, when a "report" comes out, people have questions? Really?
They arrested 4 but there are plenty more out there. As I have said, EVERYBODY on the backside knows exactly who these people are. Nobody on the backside is surprised .
Pretty sure Chad is doing well in his new occupation and I know I am. I sure hope you are Chad. Most former trainers that have 1/2 an ounce of sense, work circles around their competition which usually leads to financial gain and a successful business.
So yes, 4 are arrested with a boatload more waiting in the wings. Plenty of trainers as well. Remember, it takes 2 to tango. So nice start, albeit 25 years too late. But let's not be surprised. Chad and I sure as hell are not.yea no surprise. as we said this is the norm. if you started busting vets for this there wouldn't be any left at any racing jurisdiction lol. And as you I'm making a great living now, I work in the oil industry. I have had inclinations to get back into the game but boy that gets squashed every time I think about the whole ordeal. I miss the horses and that's it. In fact every time I deal with my brother the horse owner it solidifies how out of touch most of the owners are and I don't want to deal with that ever again. If I ever did loose my sanity and do it again it would be 100% with my own owned horses. No outside horses with the only exception being my step dad who is 100% on board with my way of thinking and understands you pay trainers for a reason lol. He is a handicapper by nature and never claims to know any more about taking care of them. He is the ultimate realist. I don't want to hijack this post but someday I'll tell you a great story about him and his handicapping;)

[forced89]

I see nothing wrong with trainers telling vets what meds they want as long as they are legal. The back dating, however, is wrong and should be punished.

[chadk66]

I see nothing wrong with trainers telling vets what meds they want as long as they are legal. The back dating, however, is wrong and should be punished.like we said, happens every single day at every tack in this country.

[Grits]

I see nothing wrong with trainers telling vets what meds they want as long as they are legal. The back dating, however, is wrong and should be punished.

The "trainers telling vets what meds they want as long as they are legal"? ..You have no idea how wrong this reads.

The trainer knows more about veterinary medicine than the vet? Some of us have a difficult time drawing this conclusion.

[chadk66]

The "trainers telling vets what meds they want as long as they are legal"? ..You have no idea how wrong this reads.

The trainer knows more about veterinary medicine than the vet? Some of us have a difficult time drawing this conclusion.it's not about trainers telling vets what meds they want. the issue is vets injecting horses within 24 hrs of a race with meds, even though legal, can't be injected within 24hrs of a race.

[Grits]

it's not about trainers telling vets what meds they want. the issue is vets injecting horses within 24 hrs of a race with meds, even though legal, can't be injected within 24hrs of a race.

Chad, I know that your reading comprehension is as good as my own. This clearly indicates trainer intent. If not, what am I missing? The piece states.

"It was part of the conspiracy charged ... that Thoroughbred horse trainers known to the United States ordered from (one of the four charged vets) substances the trainers wanted administered to a particular horse(s) entered in a particular race on race day," read each of the case outlines of the four charged vets.

[chadk66]

Chad, I know that your reading comprehension is as good as my own. This clearly indicates trainer intent. If not, what am I missing? The piece states.trainers tell vets what they want administered all the time. anything from bute, banamine, electrolyte jugs, dmso jugs, lasix for morning workouts, anti-biotics, etc. etc. trainers know a lot about meds, they work with vets every single day. when I shipped horses There is nothing illegal about a trainer telling a vet what he wants administered. In this situation the problem was vets administering meds within the twenty four hour, no administration period prior to a race. Only med approved for administration within that period that I know of is Lasix. And unless something has changed that is four hours out and not any closer to race time.

[DeltaLover]

Penn National?? My advice to a horse bettor, would be to simply stay far from it (unless he is an insider of course)... This kind of small (Mickey Mouse) tracks, are very bad your bankroll and there exist much better places to take your chances than betting to their anaemic pools.

[Tom]

Any vet who would listen to a trainer for what drugs to give a horse should lose his license and be barred from the tracks.

[chadk66]

Any vet who would listen to a trainer for what drugs to give a horse should lose his license and be barred from the tracks.you obviously don't know what your talking about.

[DeltaLover]

Any vet who would listen to a trainer for what drugs to give a horse should lose his license and be barred from the tracks.

:ThmbUp:

One of the best suggestions to improve the game

[Grits]

Yep, all those giving thyroid meds knew a lot, too, didn't they? Got kinda messy though when horses started dropping dead.

Chad, you can tout your trainer knowledge of meds and treatments until the cows come home, but this is a good part of what is wrong with the game, and not too many are going to be in disagreement on this.

You've stated, clearly, your reasons for getting out of the game. This was one of them!

By your qualifications, this scenario isn't a bit different. ---- A mother walks into a doctor's office with her five children in tow. She's real experienced, so she tells the doctor, "I'm with them everyday, I know exactly what's wrong with each of them. So, I need this drug, this drug, this drug, this drug, and this drug. Write their RXs and we're on our way. Thank you."

It doesn't work this way, and it shouldn't work this way for horses. That trainer doesn't have 8+ years of education to back up his knowledge. Regardless, how one justifies it, this is wrong.

[chadk66]

Yep, all those giving thyroid meds knew a lot, too, didn't they? Got kinda messy though when horses started dropping dead.

Chad, you can tout your trainer knowledge of meds and treatments until the cows come home, but this is a good part of what is wrong with the game, and not too many are going to be in disagreement on this.

You've stated, clearly, your reasons for getting out of the game. This was one of them!

By your qualifications, this scenario isn't a bit different. ---- A mother walks into a doctor's office with her five children in tow. She's real experienced, so she tells the doctor, "I'm with them everyday, I know exactly what's wrong with each of them. So, I need this drug, this drug, this drug, this drug, and this drug. Write their RXs and we're on our way. Thank you."

It doesn't work this way, and it shouldn't work this way for horses. That trainer doesn't have 8+ years of education to back up his knowledge. Regardless, how one justifies it, this is wrong.you shouldn't display your ignorance on this issue. there are dozens of scenarios where it's perfectly fine for a trainer to tell a vet what he wants a horse to have. I can't help you have no experience with horses. In fact I go to my doctor and tell him I want a cortizone shot and he gives me one. As a trainer when I didn't know what the issue with a horse was I had the vet figure it out and treat accordingly. Most of you guys have never been in a barn let alone met a vet lol. But yet your going to tell those of us that did this for a living how nuts we are. Just because a trainer tells a vet a horse needs a certain med doesn't make it a bad thing. perfect example. A trainer may be at a track six months of a year. The vet checked a horse out for an issue and decides said horse needs a treatment of a certain med once a month. So that's what they do. But then the trainer goes to a different track for the other six months of the year and that vet doesn't go to that track. So the trainer tells the vet there what treatment they're giving the horse. See now how stupid you look.

[DeltaLover]

you shouldn't display your ignorance on this issue. there are dozens of scenarios where it's perfectly fine for a trainer to tell a vet what he wants a horse to have. I can't help you have no experience with horses. In fact I go to my doctor and tell him I want a cortizone shot and he gives me one. As a trainer when I didn't know what the issue with a horse was I had the vet figure it out and treat accordingly. Most of you guys have never been in a barn let alone met a vet lol. But yet your going to tell those of us that did this for a living how nuts we are. Just because a trainer tells a vet a horse needs a certain med doesn't make it a bad thing. perfect example. A trainer may be at a track six months of a year. The vet checked a horse out for an issue and decides said horse needs a treatment of a certain med once a month. So that's what they do. But then the trainer goes to a different track for the other six months of the year and that vet doesn't go to that track. So the trainer tells the vet there what treatment they're giving the horse. See now how stupid you look.



I certainly understand that the trainer's input should be one of the primary inputs to the vet's decisions, but this input should be strictly limited to description of the behavior of the horse and in absolutely no situation extended to the kind of medication that should be taken...

Everyone should be limited within the borders of his domain knowledge and responsibility.

As far as I know, drug prescribing is not part of the expertise of a trainer, groom, horse bettor or anyone else than a trained veterinarian.

[Fingal]

Penn National?? My advice to a horse bettor, would be to simply stay far from it (unless he is an insider of course)... This kind of small (Mickey Mouse) tracks, are very bad your bankroll and there exist much better places to take your chances than betting to their anaemic pools.

Exactly. That's why offshore books grade tracks & set bet limits on those places.

When I heard it was Penn National I wasn't surprised at all. Now if it was on a major circuit like S. Cal, NYRA, Florida or Kentucky, that would have been another story.

[Stillriledup]

you shouldn't display your ignorance on this issue. there are dozens of scenarios where it's perfectly fine for a trainer to tell a vet what he wants a horse to have. I can't help you have no experience with horses. In fact I go to my doctor and tell him I want a cortizone shot and he gives me one. As a trainer when I didn't know what the issue with a horse was I had the vet figure it out and treat accordingly. Most of you guys have never been in a barn let alone met a vet lol. But yet your going to tell those of us that did this for a living how nuts we are. Just because a trainer tells a vet a horse needs a certain med doesn't make it a bad thing. perfect example. A trainer may be at a track six months of a year. The vet checked a horse out for an issue and decides said horse needs a treatment of a certain med once a month. So that's what they do. But then the trainer goes to a different track for the other six months of the year and that vet doesn't go to that track. So the trainer tells the vet there what treatment they're giving the horse. See now how stupid you look.

Sorry Chad, i gotta side with Grits on this one. There are a LOT of trainers who are complete idiots who got their license at the bottom of a cracker jack box and shouldnt be deciding what medicines to give a horse. Some trainers might be experts in drugs and knowing exactly what that horse needs, but that's just not true for everyone, many of these people can't spell horse (including some of these 35% cheaters) much less know how to treat them medically.

As far as you going to your doctor and prescribing yourself, i tried that once and the doctor told me i would need to come in and get looked at, she wasn't going to just write me an RX and let me diagnose myself.

[green80]

sounds like the everyday procedure around here.

[Saratoga_Mike]

you obviously don't know what your talking about.

I don't think most racing fans realize a good trainer is a good vet - that doesn't mean the trainer is a cheat or anything like that. It means a good trainer recognizes basic ailments/problems without having a vet inspect the horses under their care every day. In addition, a good trainer is familiar with basic medications. If a drug is legal and commonly used, I'm fine with a trainer asking for it to be administered within the recommended withdrawal period.

My question: how come more trainers didn't come back with positives if they were giving the drugs so close to race time? I think the withdrawal period on clenbuterol is one week or more in NY (it's closer in PA, I think?). If the trainer gave the horse a dose a day before the race, I'm pretty confident the trainer would get a positive. Why didn't that happen at Penn over the yrs? Maybe it did.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Sorry Chad, i gotta side with Grits on this one. There are a LOT of trainers who are complete idiots who got their license at the bottom of a cracker jack box and shouldnt be deciding what medicines to give a horse. Some trainers might be experts in drugs and knowing exactly what that horse needs, but that's just not true for everyone, many of these people can't spell horse (including some of these 35% cheaters) much less know how to treat them medically.

As far as you going to your doctor and prescribing yourself, i tried that once and the doctor told me i would need to come in and get looked at, she wasn't going to just write me an RX and let me diagnose myself.

Chad's list of drugs a trainer might ask to be administered: bute, banamine, electrolyte jugs, dmso jugs, lasix for morning workouts, anti-biotics.

There is a 35%, 30%, 25% or 20% trainer in the country that doesn't know exactly what each of these drugs is used for.

[Tom]

you obviously don't know what your talking about.

I do not agree.
You would take the opinion of a trainer over a licensed vet as to what meds a horse needs?

Unless you agenda is not the health and well being of the horse and just your income.

of course a vet is more qualified.
To say otherwise is stupid

[Tom]

If the trainers know so much about meds, why don't THEY get a license?

[Ruffian1]

Exactly. That's why offshore books grade tracks & set bet limits on those places.

When I heard it was Penn National I wasn't surprised at all. Now if it was on a major circuit like S. Cal, NYRA, Florida or Kentucky, that would have been another story.

Don't be misled that it is a "Penn. Nat." or minor track problem. So. Cal. was a disgrace with illegal drugs when I was in the game and Doug O'Neill has done nothing to make anyone think it is any different.
NYRA? Whoa!! They spend millions each year to keep the wool pulled over the fans eyes and of course they smash Rick D. to prove how wonderful they are.( what a joke that is!) Well folks, keep drinking the kool aid. Back in the day it was hay, oats and water when others allowed lasix, but it really was not. It was hay, oats, no lasix, and a list of drugs about 20 deep many of which I had never even heard of. Sorry, it was a farce.
Ky.? Dr. Harthill territory. Boy could I tell you a story there about Doug Davis, Harthill and myself.
Fla. ? It's reputation from the backside speaks for itself.
So, as I often say and with mixed results, you are going to have to trust me here but the 4 jurisdictions you mentioned are just as guilty as lowly Penn. Nat. That sir, is your best bet of the day I promise you.

[chadk66]

Sorry Chad, i gotta side with Grits on this one. There are a LOT of trainers who are complete idiots who got their license at the bottom of a cracker jack box and shouldnt be deciding what medicines to give a horse. Some trainers might be experts in drugs and knowing exactly what that horse needs, but that's just not true for everyone, many of these people can't spell horse (including some of these 35% cheaters) much less know how to treat them medically.

As far as you going to your doctor and prescribing yourself, i tried that once and the doctor told me i would need to come in and get looked at, she wasn't going to just write me an RX and let me diagnose myself.and those aren't the trainers telling the vet what they want given. some wouldn't know. most do. it is what it is. and there is nothing wrong with it.

[chadk66]

I don't think most racing fans realize a good trainer is a good vet - that doesn't mean the trainer is a cheat or anything like that. It means a good trainer recognizes basic ailments/problems without having a vet inspect the horses under their care every day. In addition, a good trainer is familiar with basic medications. If a drug is legal and commonly used, I'm fine with a trainer asking for it to be administered within the recommended withdrawal period.

My question: how come more trainers didn't come back with positives if they were giving the drugs so close to race time? I think the withdrawal period on clenbuterol is one week or more in NY (it's closer in PA, I think?). If the trainer gave the horse a dose a day before the race, I'm pretty confident the trainer would get a positive. Why didn't that happen at Penn over the yrs? Maybe it did.they're not drugs that are illegal to use just as I said. They are illegal to be administered within 24 hours of race time. nothing more nothing less. they don't measure levels on most if any. it's really a simple rule and most people are very confused by it. they just do not want any meds aside from lasix administered within 24 hours of a horses race. don't make it more complicated than it is.

[chadk66]

I do not agree.
You would take the opinion of a trainer over a licensed vet as to what meds a horse needs?

Unless you agenda is not the health and well being of the horse and just your income.

of course a vet is more qualified.
To say otherwise is stupidyou obviously don't know anything about horses. and you obviously missed my post regarding another vet doctoring the horse at another track and the therapy needs to continue under another vet at a different track. it's not rocket science guys. your making a big deal over nothing. If a vet has a better drug he'll recommend it.

[chadk66]

Don't be misled that it is a "Penn. Nat." or minor track problem. So. Cal. was a disgrace with illegal drugs when I was in the game and Doug O'Neill has done nothing to make anyone think it is any different.
NYRA? Whoa!! They spend millions each year to keep the wool pulled over the fans eyes and of course they smash Rick D. to prove how wonderful they are.( what a joke that is!) Well folks, keep drinking the kool aid. Back in the day it was hay, oats and water when others allowed lasix, but it really was not. It was hay, oats, no lasix, and a list of drugs about 20 deep many of which I had never even heard of. Sorry, it was a farce.
Ky.? Dr. Harthill territory. Boy could I tell you a story there about Doug Davis, Harthill and myself.
Fla. ? It's reputation from the backside speaks for itself.
So, as I often say and with mixed results, you are going to have to trust me here but the 4 jurisdictions you mentioned are just as guilty as lowly Penn. Nat. That sir, is your best bet of the day I promise you.your right illegal medications know no jurisdiction.

[Saratoga_Mike]

they're not drugs that are illegal to use just as I said. They are illegal to be administered within 24 hours of race time. nothing more nothing less. they don't measure levels on most if any. it's really a simple rule and most people are very confused by it. they just do not want any meds aside from lasix administered within 24 hours of a horses race. don't make it more complicated than it is.

I know. I was agreeing with you - I thought that was fairly obvious.

[Grits]

you shouldn't display your ignorance on this issue. there are dozens of scenarios where it's perfectly fine for a trainer to tell a vet what he wants a horse to have. I can't help you have no experience with horses. In fact I go to my doctor and tell him I want a cortizone shot and he gives me one. As a trainer when I didn't know what the issue with a horse was I had the vet figure it out and treat accordingly. Most of you guys have never been in a barn let alone met a vet lol. But yet your going to tell those of us that did this for a living how nuts we are. Just because a trainer tells a vet a horse needs a certain med doesn't make it a bad thing. perfect example. A trainer may be at a track six months of a year. The vet checked a horse out for an issue and decides said horse needs a treatment of a certain med once a month. So that's what they do. But then the trainer goes to a different track for the other six months of the year and that vet doesn't go to that track. So the trainer tells the vet there what treatment they're giving the horse. See now how stupid you look.

I'll chance continuing my ignorance and my stupidity, borrowing a line from the film, Silver Linings Playbook.

"You have poor social skills. You have a problem."

[Clocker]

I'll chance continuing my ignorance and my stupidity, borrowing a line from the film, Silver Linings Playbook.

"You have poor social skills. You have a problem."

I'd guess that most horse players are ignorant about what happens on the backside. That doesn't mean they are stupid. I'll pretend to have social skills and refrain from saying what people that confuse the two things are.

[proximity]

lol i had a dream the other night that penn national busted me for "computer betting" and that i was walking around their clubhouse talking with my hand over my mouth like nicky santoro in the movie casino.

it seems that for every hard working horse man or woman that tracks the mud and manure of their labors into jonestown bank or grantville market that there's another juicer lurking in the backstretch shadows.

time flies and the slots have been running for years now but yet backs remained turned to the horseplayers who built the place.

long distance request and dedication:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3xkSTuRD7M

[thespaah]

every vet does this. nothing new to see here.
Well, it does kind of make sense since the trainers are around their horses all the time. They know what's bothering them.
Now, if it is just for the health of the horse, I see nothing wrong.
If the administering of drugs is to cheat, then I say let them all swing from a clock tower in the town square.

[thespaah]

you shouldn't display your ignorance on this issue. there are dozens of scenarios where it's perfectly fine for a trainer to tell a vet what he wants a horse to have. I can't help you have no experience with horses. In fact I go to my doctor and tell him I want a cortizone shot and he gives me one. As a trainer when I didn't know what the issue with a horse was I had the vet figure it out and treat accordingly. Most of you guys have never been in a barn let alone met a vet lol. But yet your going to tell those of us that did this for a living how nuts we are. Just because a trainer tells a vet a horse needs a certain med doesn't make it a bad thing. perfect example. A trainer may be at a track six months of a year. The vet checked a horse out for an issue and decides said horse needs a treatment of a certain med once a month. So that's what they do. But then the trainer goes to a different track for the other six months of the year and that vet doesn't go to that track. So the trainer tells the vet there what treatment they're giving the horse. See now how stupid you look.
Now hang on a minute. You made a good point in your shipping to another track scenario....You did not have to insult the OP....Take it back...No place for that here.

[Saratoga_Mike]

By your qualifications, this scenario isn't a bit different. ---- A mother walks into a doctor's office with her five children in tow. She's real experienced, so she tells the doctor, "I'm with them everyday, I know exactly what's wrong with each of them. So, I need this drug, this drug, this drug, this drug, and this drug. Write their RXs and we're on our way. Thank you."

.

I absolutely appreciate your position, but many of the drugs mentioned aren't much more powerful than many OTC drugs. And the mom in your scenario would certainly be capable of giving one of her children something like Tylenol, no?

Like I said, I see your point of view and appreciate it. I just think we need to worry about trainers using illegal drugs on their horses, not the trainers requesting very commonly prescribed meds for aches and pains for their horses (assuming the drugs are given within the allowable time frame).

[johnhannibalsmith]

I absolutely appreciate your position, but many of the drugs mentioned aren't much more powerful than many OTC drugs. And the mom in your scenario would certainly be capable of giving one of her children something like Tylenol, no?

Like I said, I see your point of view and appreciate it. I just think we need to worry about trainers using illegal drugs on their horses, not the trainers requesting very commonly prescribed meds for aches and pains for their horses (assuming the drugs are given within the allowable time frame).

Yeah, I kind of get the feeling people are talking totally different things throughout this exchange.

Asking for a bottle of bute for the barn and a few tubes of banamine paste is just common sense and the vet handing it over without question is the way it should be. These are things that you need at your disposal, whether indicated for something specific at any given moment or not.

Dictating a $2,500 pre-race treatment to a vet and having it served like a waiter brings lunch is awholenother story.

I think the two notions can co-exist.

[Saratoga_Mike]

JHS - I think you're correct.

[Donttellmeshowme]

If the trainers know so much about meds, why don't THEY get a license?




Why get a license when they can just order meds from the vet and do there own injecting.

[Donttellmeshowme]

I don't think most racing fans realize a good trainer is a good vet - that doesn't mean the trainer is a cheat or anything like that. It means a good trainer recognizes basic ailments/problems without having a vet inspect the horses under their care every day. In addition, a good trainer is familiar with basic medications. If a drug is legal and commonly used, I'm fine with a trainer asking for it to be administered within the recommended withdrawal period.

My question: how come more trainers didn't come back with positives if they were giving the drugs so close to race time? I think the withdrawal period on clenbuterol is one week or more in NY (it's closer in PA, I think?). If the trainer gave the horse a dose a day before the race, I'm pretty confident the trainer would get a positive. Why didn't that happen at Penn over the yrs? Maybe it did.






Because there giving the drug so close to race time its not showing up in the test or they are masking what they are giving.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Yep, all those giving thyroid meds knew a lot, too, didn't they? Got kinda messy though when horses started dropping dead.

Chad, you can tout your trainer knowledge of meds and treatments until the cows come home, but this is a good part of what is wrong with the game, and not too many are going to be in disagreement on this.

You've stated, clearly, your reasons for getting out of the game. This was one of them!

By your qualifications, this scenario isn't a bit different. ---- A mother walks into a doctor's office with her five children in tow. She's real experienced, so she tells the doctor, "I'm with them everyday, I know exactly what's wrong with each of them. So, I need this drug, this drug, this drug, this drug, and this drug. Write their RXs and we're on our way. Thank you."

It doesn't work this way, and it shouldn't work this way for horses. That trainer doesn't have 8+ years of education to back up his knowledge. Regardless, how one justifies it, this is wrong.





They can say what they want to but Thyroid meds were not making these horses drop dead.

[chadk66]

Now hang on a minute. You made a good point in your shipping to another track scenario....You did not have to insult the OP....Take it back...No place for that here.It really wasn't my intention to insult the OP, sorry if it was taken that way. Some of the statements made toward me could have been construed as insulting also. It's just kind of how things come across in forums like this I guess.

[chadk66]

Yeah, I kind of get the feeling people are talking totally different things throughout this exchange.

Asking for a bottle of bute for the barn and a few tubes of banamine paste is just common sense and the vet handing it over without question is the way it should be. These are things that you need at your disposal, whether indicated for something specific at any given moment or not.

Dictating a $2,500 pre-race treatment to a vet and having it served like a waiter brings lunch is awholenother story.

I think the two notions can co-exist.pretty well put. the line is surely blurred. In fact I think the very mention in the article that trainers tell vets to medicate was probably a bad statement by the author.

[Ruffian1]

Yeah, I kind of get the feeling people are talking totally different things throughout this exchange.

Asking for a bottle of bute for the barn and a few tubes of banamine paste is just common sense and the vet handing it over without question is the way it should be. These are things that you need at your disposal, whether indicated for something specific at any given moment or not.

Dictating a $2,500 pre-race treatment to a vet and having it served like a waiter brings lunch is awholenother story.

I think the two notions can co-exist.


Very well put. I could not agree more.

[Ruffian1]

Why get a license when they can just order meds from the vet and do there own injecting.

I take great exception to that.

In 27 years I NEVER INJECTED ANY horse or anything into any animals system.

"they" lumps everyone into it, IMO. Too me, that is just wrong.

[Ruffian1]

As we all see, this story touches a highly passionate nerve with most of us. Many well meant posts came off as insulting or condescending I think. And I don't think most posters meant to do that.
For what it's worth, my post about the top tier circuits I stand behind 100% .
But we are talking about 2 different things in here and I am as guilty as anyone for that.
Yes, there are cheating trainers, vets and owners at every circuit . That is because there is money involved.
Same holds true for government, the church, the stock market and anywhere money is exchanged. It's been going on since money existed. But what this thread started off as, was the reporting that vets were treating horses inside of the 24 hour window prior to racing and back dating the drug dispense. This too has been going on for at least the last 25 years. Everyone is aware of it, and when those that normally would not do it, saw the few that loved to do it, winning and not getting caught, a good % of them joined in, leaving those of us, myself included, feeling like chumps. Both vets and the requesting trainers are guilty here.
Short story:
I was battling King T. for a trainers title at Timonium and a couple of days before the end of the meet it is real tight. I go see my horse in the receiving barn before the race and here comes a vet out of the stall of another horse in my race, with a syringe in his hand. (The trainer was one of those that recently got days in Md.). Long story short, I get nailed at the wire by guess who. Yep, the horse that was treated about 2-3 hours out. The drug was a legal one. It was Amicar.( I guess that is how you spell it). Helps prevent bleeding. Now, did that drug beat me? No. But did that trainer break the rules in front of everyone and beat me a lip? Yes he did. I went to the Stewards about it and spoke for about 30 minutes after the race. I was so upset. They said, there was nothing they could do unless the horse had a positive. I even showed them the rule book. They felt badly for me as I knew them well and rode one of them on probably 100 winners while he was riding. I knew that day, that it was the beginning of the end. It took a few more years before I left, but that day started it all off.
By the way, King T. beat me by 2 winners that meet. Man was he tough, and I will add, he NEVER played the game unfairly.
But I digress.
So the thread is about treating inside 24 hours and it is everywhere. It can absolutely be cleaned up, as most of this stuff can. But it will take money, resources and effort. Honestly, I do not see track management as willing to commit to doing so. And there are too many trainers and vets that have no respect for the game, the customers or anyone, who relish the opportunity to cheat.
Honestly, the fan base is the only way I see change happening. That would be the owners as well as the customers demanding the game get cleaned up. And that does not seem possible. So what will happen is the same old PR stunts that management pulls to keep the customers coming. It's one thing for it all to exist. But drinking the PR kool aid is just sad.
Lastly. This is not some old bitter ex trainer that wants to bitch. Getting out of the game was the best claim I ever made. My life is great. My occupation is thriving. I am financially in great shape and life is good. All I am is a person who has tried to share with those that have an interest in horse racing, aspects of a game from a place they would not have an opportunity to otherwise experience. I have always tried to help others. That's just who I am.
Hey SRU, have you looked up Wicked Man from the 70's yet? I love dogs but I have never seen one yet with the blood and guts will to win at any cost that Wicked Man had.Lol.
Hope that helps bring clarity to this thread.

[chadk66]

Great post Ruffian. Yes it could be cleaned up. But as you stated it would take work. And $. $ they aren't going to spend because the overwhelming majority do it. It's the old "if it aint broke don't fix it" routine. They're not going to waste time and $ on something they feel everybody is doing so nobody has an edge kind of thing.

[Tom]

Why go to all that trouble when all that is at stake in the integrity of the game?

Maybe PETA is right after all.

[chadk66]

Why go to all that trouble when all that is at stake in the integrity of the game?

Maybe PETA is right after all.not all of the drugs being injected within 24 hrs of racing are major serious drugs. In fact most are legal drugs they're just more beneficial the closer you give them to race time. Cleaning up the use of performance enhancing drugs has to be the most crucial. they can't even do that. The use of those drugs is far more serious to the integrity of the game. Well on second thought the game doesn't have any integrity left I don't think.

[chadk66]

I should put it this way. As a former trainer that never did the illegal drug stuff, I'd rather the racing commission put a stop to the performance enhancing drugs first. The ones that got me beat on a regular basis. Do that before you attempt to clean up the legal drugs that are given too close to race time. Those aren't the ones that beat me very often. Do it in that order if you can't do it simultaneously.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

Maybe PETA is right after all.

That's what's missing when everyone wants to be at one extreme or the other. About the second time a horse that we all know grudgingly dies in the middle of the night because there is nobody around with the proper credentials to treat the horse in an emergency, then everyone will be crying their eyes out over how we could possibly have a rule that kills horses. There's no simple answer. Nobody who has saddled more than a dozen horses lacks a story about the horse that they had to stay up all night with doing everything in their power while someone tried to locate the vet, a vet, any vet to come out and do something.

It's really easy to just scream that trainers just love the status quo and tear down racing by not agreeing 100% with the most ideal and radical, but flawed idea. And then rip them again when the unintended consequences create an equally deplorable problem.

I've been to tracks where the track opens before a vet is ever on the grounds. I've seen what can happen when good intentions hamstring someone from saving the life of or mercifully ending the life of this animal that we all have this relationship with.

I've watched groups of people say **** my license - racing and driver's - and literally race their truck to their residence to load up on drugs and return through the stable gate syringes and all to try to save the life of a horse.

I'm assuming that nobody here is going to condemn that person. Right? Nobody thinks people should stand around and let horses suffer because of a well-intended rule which sounds great, but that leaves no room for common sense, do they?

I know nobody deserves any trust but... reality makes it a really tough spot.

[Tom]

If racing cannot enforce that horses only get legal meds administered by licensed vets with valid legal prescriptions written ahead of time, then racing should be outlawed.

That is not a ridiculous rule to have in place.
Is it?

As far as extraordinary care needed at that exact time, yes, you do what needs to be done to save the horse or at least stop its suffering.

But then that brings up the point why is a track open for training with no vets on site?

The tracks are hardly guilt free in all this. THEY provide the means for the training and the racing and it just as much their responsibility as it is the trainer's to ensure the safety of the horses.

[johnhannibalsmith]

If racing cannot enforce that horses only get legal meds administered by licensed vets with valid legal prescriptions written ahead of time, then racing should be outlawed.

That is not a ridiculous rule to have in place.

Is it?

If you mean a 24 hour pharmacy/vet on all grounds - I think it could work - but I also think that it is unrealistic to think that at an industry that still communicates through phone lines plugged into a 2400 baud running Zmodem on a Tandy TL/2 is going to get that rolled out in the near future.

But - I would really like it if someone would consider giving a grant to some place like Arapahoe that runs a short enough meet to be reasonable, but long enough to cover all withdrawal times and set up a test program to flesh it out now. That place seems to want to put out press releases about how they are on the cutting edge of rule making while still assembling race cards and wagering menus that satisfy the needs of the horseman and bettors that were there when it was still a territory. A place where the business model is so bad with its core product anyway that there's no downside.

Start somewhere if we're headed that way. I don't think there's another way to bridge the gap between ideal and realistic myself.

[rastajenk]

If racing cannot enforce that horses only get legal meds administered by licensed vets with valid legal prescriptions written ahead of time, then racing should be outlawed.

That is not a ridiculous rule to have in place.
Is it?

Of course it is.

If racing is outlawed, that doesn't mean racing horses will stop. It may go underground, but it won't stop. Enforcement will then be placed with policing agencies that probably have more important matters on their plates, and so whatever issues one has with the (in)humane treatment of horses raised to race will become even worse. You won't be able to enjoy the satisfaction of translating your puzzle-solving skills into winning wagers, and horses will still get drugged. Who wins there? PETA of course, collecting a scalp without really raising society to some kind of higher ideal. Surely, Tom, you are familiar with the term "useful idiots." Don't be one.

[Tom]

horses only get legal meds administered by licensed vets with valid legal prescriptions written ahead of time,

This is ridiculous to you?
So you are saying the hell with the horses - just run a race?
Sounds usefully idiotic to me.

[rastajenk]

Of course not, I was keying on your penalty phase: outlawing racing. You know that, you're stubborn but not obtuse.

[Tom]

Well, I specifically referred the RULE in my post, so I guess the obtuseness was your contribution.

Just how many "underground tracks do you suppose will spring up?
Get real here.

[Relwob Owner]

I should put it this way. As a former trainer that never did the illegal drug stuff, I'd rather the racing commission put a stop to the performance enhancing drugs first. The ones that got me beat on a regular basis. Do that before you attempt to clean up the legal drugs that are given too close to race time. Those aren't the ones that beat me very often. Do it in that order if you can't do it simultaneously.


I really like your posts and the insight you give as a former trainer. I guess my response would be that it seems impossible to keep up with all the new drugs so the powers that be have to enforce anything they can to make a dent in things.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Because there giving the drug so close to race time its not showing up in the test or they are masking what they are giving.

Guess you missed this part of my post: "I'm fine with a trainer asking for it to be administered within the recommended withdrawal period."

[Donttellmeshowme]

I take great exception to that.

In 27 years I NEVER INJECTED ANY horse or anything into any animals system.

"they" lumps everyone into it, IMO. Too me, that is just wrong.




I hate to tell you but some trainers do inject themselves. Saves on the vet bills

[chadk66]

I really like your posts and the insight you give as a former trainer. I guess my response would be that it seems impossible to keep up with all the new drugs so the powers that be have to enforce anything they can to make a dent in things.keeping on on them is certainly a major issue. My response to that is if you make the penalties strong enough it would be a deterrent. If this country decided they wanted to seriously weed out these types of trainers it could be done in a year. But it would take rules that include lifetime bans for second or third offenses. They would weed em out or stop it in no time flat.

[Ruffian1]

I hate to tell you but some trainers do inject themselves. Saves on the vet bills

Lol. Don't feel bad for telling me. I have known since I got my license in 1975.
Like I said, "They" lumps a lot of people in and I was not one of them. I was a part of "they" though from your earlier post. Anyone that wants to stereotype me or lump me in with crooked pieces of garbage like the trainers you refer to, will hear it from me.
I will say that it was a pleasure competing against most of them. They were easy to spot. They were usually in the back of the pack and their horses looked like crap in the paddock. As a matter of fact, so did "they".

[chadk66]

I hate to tell you but some trainers do inject themselves. Saves on the vet billsthey certainly do. what percentage? I really don't know. probably not that high since there are so many vets that will do it no questions asked. I injected horses at the farm all the time. It's not difficult at all. These injections were vaccinations, banamine if I have one with colic, etc. antibiotics also. But nothing aside from routine things they needed or emergency stuff. To this day I do this to my wives horses. Why would I hire a vet to come do something I can do in ten minutes.

[Ruffian1]

they certainly do. what percentage? I really don't know. probably not that high since there are so many vets that will do it no questions asked. I injected horses at the farm all the time. It's not difficult at all. These injections were vaccinations, banamine if I have one with colic, etc. antibiotics also. But nothing aside from routine things they needed or emergency stuff. To this day I do this to my wives horses. Why would I hire a vet to come do something I can do in ten minutes.

Of course Chad, it goes without saying to someone that understands english, that I am not referring to farms . My complete reference is to horses at the track and trainers while on the grounds. Of course it is necessary on farms but good luck getting that through the head of this rocket scientist.
It really burns my butt when I get these ignorant posts . Not so much the original, but the pathetic follow up. What an arrogant and clueless customer!!
Why doesn't he just stop typing and read. He might actually learn something.

[chadk66]

Of course Chad, it goes without saying to someone that understands english, that I am not referring to farms . My complete reference is to horses at the track and trainers while on the grounds. Of course it is necessary on farms but good luck getting that through the head of this rocket scientist.
It really burns my butt when I get these ignorant posts . Not so much the original, but the pathetic follow up. What an arrogant and clueless customer!!
Why doesn't he just stop typing and read. He might actually learn something.:D:ThmbUp:

[chadk66]

some people talking about some of these issues would be just like me making comments on ballet. I don't know a damn thing about ballet.

[Donttellmeshowme]

they certainly do. what percentage? I really don't know. probably not that high since there are so many vets that will do it no questions asked. I injected horses at the farm all the time. It's not difficult at all. These injections were vaccinations, banamine if I have one with colic, etc. antibiotics also. But nothing aside from routine things they needed or emergency stuff. To this day I do this to my wives horses. Why would I hire a vet to come do something I can do in ten minutes.





very small % less than 1%

[Relwob Owner]

keeping on on them is certainly a major issue. My response to that is if you make the penalties strong enough it would be a deterrent. If this country decided they wanted to seriously weed out these types of trainers it could be done in a year. But it would take rules that include lifetime bans for second or third offenses. They would weed em out or stop it in no time flat.


Totally agree that enforcement is a huge issue. What is your take on involving the owners in punishment in some way?

[Tall One]

As we all see, this story touches a highly passionate nerve with most of us. Many well meant posts came off as insulting or condescending I think. And I don't think most posters meant to do that.
For what it's worth, my post about the top tier circuits I stand behind 100% .
But we are talking about 2 different things in here and I am as guilty as anyone for that.
Yes, there are cheating trainers, vets and owners at every circuit . That is because there is money involved.
Same holds true for government, the church, the stock market and anywhere money is exchanged. It's been going on since money existed. But what this thread started off as, was the reporting that vets were treating horses inside of the 24 hour window prior to racing and back dating the drug dispense. This too has been going on for at least the last 25 years. Everyone is aware of it, and when those that normally would not do it, saw the few that loved to do it, winning and not getting caught, a good % of them joined in, leaving those of us, myself included, feeling like chumps. Both vets and the requesting trainers are guilty here.
Short story:
I was battling King T. for a trainers title at Timonium and a couple of days before the end of the meet it is real tight. I go see my horse in the receiving barn before the race and here comes a vet out of the stall of another horse in my race, with a syringe in his hand. (The trainer was one of those that recently got days in Md.). Long story short, I get nailed at the wire by guess who. Yep, the horse that was treated about 2-3 hours out. The drug was a legal one. It was Amicar.( I guess that is how you spell it). Helps prevent bleeding. Now, did that drug beat me? No. But did that trainer break the rules in front of everyone and beat me a lip? Yes he did. I went to the Stewards about it and spoke for about 30 minutes after the race. I was so upset. They said, there was nothing they could do unless the horse had a positive. I even showed them the rule book. They felt badly for me as I knew them well and rode one of them on probably 100 winners while he was riding. I knew that day, that it was the beginning of the end. It took a few more years before I left, but that day started it all off.
By the way, King T. beat me by 2 winners that meet. Man was he tough, and I will add, he NEVER played the game unfairly.
But I digress.
So the thread is about treating inside 24 hours and it is everywhere. It can absolutely be cleaned up, as most of this stuff can. But it will take money, resources and effort. Honestly, I do not see track management as willing to commit to doing so. And there are too many trainers and vets that have no respect for the game, the customers or anyone, who relish the opportunity to cheat.
Honestly, the fan base is the only way I see change happening. That would be the owners as well as the customers demanding the game get cleaned up. And that does not seem possible. So what will happen is the same old PR stunts that management pulls to keep the customers coming. It's one thing for it all to exist. But drinking the PR kool aid is just sad.
Lastly. This is not some old bitter ex trainer that wants to bitch. Getting out of the game was the best claim I ever made. My life is great. My occupation is thriving. I am financially in great shape and life is good. All I am is a person who has tried to share with those that have an interest in horse racing, aspects of a game from a place they would not have an opportunity to otherwise experience. I have always tried to help others. That's just who I am.
Hey SRU, have you looked up Wicked Man from the 70's yet? I love dogs but I have never seen one yet with the blood and guts will to win at any cost that Wicked Man had.Lol.
Hope that helps bring clarity to this thread.


Good stuff Ruffian. Good fact and opinions in the thread.. :ThmbUp:

Briefly off topic, funny you mention Leatherbury. Watching the AQU reply show earlier, and he won the first at AQU. Migliore mentioned he's up for HoF this year, at 82.

Another bit, Larry Collmus made his NYRA debut today, and his first call was obviously Leatherbury's horse. Well, when Collmus made his debut at Bowie thirty odd years ago, King T was the winning trainer in that race too.

[thespaah]

Because there giving the drug so close to race time its not showing up in the test or they are masking what they are giving.
To my knowledge, this is why for the longest time Lasix was a banned race day med because it is a diuretic. As such, the horse would urinate sometimes profusely. The excess loss of fluids through elimination would render any post race urine testing, useless.
I have no idea what the limits are as far as the number of hours before a race Lasix may be administered.

[thespaah]

they certainly do. what percentage? I really don't know. probably not that high since there are so many vets that will do it no questions asked. I injected horses at the farm all the time. It's not difficult at all. These injections were vaccinations, banamine if I have one with colic, etc. antibiotics also. But nothing aside from routine things they needed or emergency stuff. To this day I do this to my wives horses. Why would I hire a vet to come do something I can do in ten minutes.
I see nothing wrong with treating the animal yourself as long as it's for the health of the animal and is not illegal.
During my short time on the Harness side, my boss would inject our horses all the time. This was when I first heard of Banamine. Didn't have a clue what it is used for.
We had a couple with some health issues that were not in training.
They got their daily meds via the trainer.

[Ruffian1]

Good stuff Ruffian. Good fact and opinions in the thread.. :ThmbUp:

Briefly off topic, funny you mention Leatherbury. Watching the AQU reply show earlier, and he won the first at AQU. Migliore mentioned he's up for HoF this year, at 82.

Another bit, Larry Collmus made his NYRA debut today, and his first call was obviously Leatherbury's horse. Well, when Collmus made his debut at Bowie thirty odd years ago, King T was the winning trainer in that race too.

King T. is up as a finalist and nobody deserves to be in more than he does. I have great respect for him. His career is one big tremendous job of spotting horses and playing the game fairly and as well as it can be played.
I did not know about King winning yesterday. I was there the day Larry called his 1st race and was recently reminded that King won it. That is very cool.
Thanks for the kind words.

[Tom]

they certainly do. what percentage? I really don't know. probably not that high since there are so many vets that will do it no questions asked. I injected horses at the farm all the time. It's not difficult at all. These injections were vaccinations, banamine if I have one with colic, etc. antibiotics also. But nothing aside from routine things they needed or emergency stuff. To this day I do this to my wives horses. Why would I hire a vet to come do something I can do in ten minutes.

Is it legal for you to do so?

[onefast99]

Rel,
Both of us know it is difficult to own horses and be responsible for what the trainer elects to do which we hope is in the best interests of the horse. To pin anything on an owner would ruin this game. Should the owners of NFL or MLB teams be responsible when their players are tested and found to have used ped's or arrested for domestic violence issues? Why should owners be responsible? Because responsible owners wouldn't let a lot of this stuff happen!

[chadk66]

Totally agree that enforcement is a huge issue. What is your take on involving the owners in punishment in some way?I think it has to be incorporated in one way, shape or form. but it really wouldn't be necessary if proper punishments were handed out to trainers.

[chadk66]

Is it legal for you to do so?on the farm absolutely.

[chadk66]

very small % less than 1%I would doubt it's that low. At some tracks it's a much larger percentage but at some tracks it's a rather low percentage. varies greatly from track to track I'm sure.

[chadk66]

To my knowledge, this is why for the longest time Lasix was a banned race day med because it is a diuretic. As such, the horse would urinate sometimes profusely. The excess loss of fluids through elimination would render any post race urine testing, useless.
I have no idea what the limits are as far as the number of hours before a race Lasix may be administered.the fear years ago was that the dehydration from the lasix would prevent positive tests for certain drugs. It was always more of a guess than scientific fact. Now days the testing is far superior to the past so it's no longer a worry. Most states in the beginning of the lasix days made you bring the horse to a detention barn four hours before post time to receive your lasix. the horse remained in that barn until it left for the paddock. this was due to the fact that most if not all PED's at the time needed to be administered within four hours of a race. Now days, who knows. And lasix barns are a thing of the past

[Tom]

on the farm absolutely.

So you can buy drugs and syringes as long as you only use on your property?
But you can't inject at the track?

[baconswitchfarm]

So you can buy drugs and syringes as long as you only use on your property?
But you can't inject at the track?


Most states having racing rules about this but not laws. If you have a farm with 20 riding horses and 100 cows your large animal vet will sell you all the injectable drugs and supplies to go with them. Most farm supply stores sell needles and antibiotics and general drugs to anyone.


As for the 1% that is way low. I have been around all kinds of racing . In every kind, all good trainers are good horsemen. Any good horseman can evaluate lameness as good as almost every vet. A great number of quarter horse and harness trainers do all their own medicating and injecting of joints. The majority of rules near tracks aren't in place for the protection of the horse. They are in place to protect the price gauging collusion that goes on among the racetrack vets.

[johnhannibalsmith]

So you can buy drugs and syringes as long as you only use on your property?
But you can't inject at the track?

Look at it this way - I look out the windows and see grass and chickens and horses, but not houses or people. When one of these horses gets sick here, even in the middle of a business day it could be hours before a vet got here. Most horse people really do know their way around the basic therapies; you have to.

[Tom]

I understand that, but I am looking at race horses.
Are you allowed to bring you drug kits to the track with you, or are they banned from the premises.

[chadk66]

So you can buy drugs and syringes as long as you only use on your property?
But you can't inject at the track?exactly. you can walk into any Tractor supply store and buy syringes and needles as well as vaccines for horses and cattle. If you want controlled items such as Bute/Banamine and the like, you get a prescription from your vet to possess those items and he sells you a bottle to keep in your barn. You can also buy certain antibiotics from TSC too

[chadk66]

I understand that, but I am looking at race horses.
Are you allowed to bring you drug kits to the track with you, or are they banned from the premises.absolutely not. A trainer cannot possess a need or syringe on the racing grounds. I've had different medicines that had to be shot down a horses throat with a syringe. When the vet gives you the syringe to use he breaks the tip off so that you cannot put a needle on it. Then you are allowed to have it.

[CryingForTheHorses]

If racing cannot enforce that horses only get legal meds administered by licensed vets with valid legal prescriptions written ahead of time, then racing should be outlawed.

That is not a ridiculous rule to have in place.
Is it?

As far as extraordinary care needed at that exact time, yes, you do what needs to be done to save the horse or at least stop its suffering.

But then that brings up the point why is a track open for training with no vets on site?

The tracks are hardly guilt free in all this. THEY provide the means for the training and the racing and it just as much their responsibility as it is the trainer's to ensure the safety of the horses.



What you are saying is 100% true Tom,BUT....I have seen instances where a horse had broke down in the morning and no other vet would go to its rescue because said trainer owed money to other vets!..

Racetracks dont want to get rid of the 35% trainer because he fills races whether he is a cheat or not!

Funny how they now have a security guy walk down your shed very early in the morning looking for the "In ToDay" card on the stall..After he walks away..Many times you see a vet going into that stall to give it something!!

They had a trainer here on 24 hour watch,Funny how the guy that was watching the barn was always sleeping in his car..Not only that,They hire people who dont have a clue about is right and what is wrong when the handler or trainer is near the horse.

[Tom]

Thanks, everyone.

[thespaah]

King T. is up as a finalist and nobody deserves to be in more than he does. I have great respect for him. His career is one big tremendous job of spotting horses and playing the game fairly and as well as it can be played.
I did not know about King winning yesterday. I was there the day Larry called his 1st race and was recently reminded that King won it. That is very cool.
Thanks for the kind words.
What amazes me about Larry Collmus is that his age is reported as 48 yet he's been announcing for 30 years....Right out of high school...
Now THAT is knowing what one wants to do at a very young age and making a career of it.

[Donttellmeshowme]

on the farm absolutely.




Nope its illegal even on the farm. Have to be licensed to hold a needle.

[Donttellmeshowme]

So you can buy drugs and syringes as long as you only use on your property?
But you can't inject at the track?





1-Yes

2-Yes

[Donttellmeshowme]

I understand that, but I am looking at race horses.
Are you allowed to bring you drug kits to the track with you, or are they banned from the premises.





Vets can bring the necessary equipment with them to treat a horse at the track or the farm.


Trainers cannot bring that equipment to treat a horse at the track.


Trainers can bring that equipment to treat a horse at the farm but that is illegal.


Hope that helps.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Trainers can bring that equipment to treat a horse at the farm but that is illegal.


Hope that helps.

No, it isn't illegal and it doesn't help. Horse on farm presents with colic; the vet is unavailable. Trainer gives horse a banamine shot. Trainer did not commit a crime.

[Donttellmeshowme]

No, it isn't illegal and it doesn't help. Horse on farm presents with colic; the vet is unavailable. Trainer gives horse a banamine shot. Trainer did not commit a crime.




Im talking about injecting on a farm not bute-lasix-or banamine

[BreadandButter]

So you can buy drugs and syringes as long as you only use on your property?
But you can't inject at the track?

That's true with the race commission and states that I'm familiar with. To give you an example (this just happens to be with greyhounds).

A number of years ago the main supplier of testosterone pills was having trouble meeting the demand. The only source readily available was needles/syringes. Since those are not legally permitted at the track or compounds, kennels had to load up their trucks with the females and drive off site - administer the shots - take the racers right back.

[chadk66]

Nope its illegal even on the farm. Have to be licensed to hold a needle.maybe in your state. no other states that I'm aware of. care to explain places like Tractor Supply that sell said needles lol.

[chadk66]

Im talking about injecting on a farm not bute-lasix-or banamineinjecting what? banamine and lasix are only in injectable form.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Have any of you guys seen the Michael Gill video about Penn National?
It seems (if his evidence is true) he does a decent job of putting the puzzle pieces together.

http://www.stateofcorruption.org/2015/03/wrong-side-of-tracks.html

[turninforhome10]

Vets can bring the necessary equipment with them to treat a horse at the track or the farm.


Trainers cannot bring that equipment to treat a horse at the track.


Trainers can bring that equipment to treat a horse at the farm but that is illegal.


Hope that helps.
Where do you get your info. It is bad. As being in the business for 15 years in both racing and farm owner you are really selling bad info here. At the track you are allowed to have oral meds if you have a script and are following treatment guidelines as prescribed by the vet. No injectables of any kind. At the farm you are allowed to use injectables. Why on earth anyone would use lasix on the farm is beyond me, but as far as banamine or any other prescribed meds go, your vet gives you the meds with a treatment plan and you follow the directions. You think a vet is going to come out everyday and inject your PenG, your crazy. If it is available OTC you go to tractor supply see the link. http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/search/horse-antibiotics_facet
Always had a bottle of banamine or demosedan on hand to treat a horse. First thing my vet would tell me on the phone, give some banamine and keep them walking, I will be there as soon as I can. Half the time the banamine would calm them down enough they would poop before the vet ever got there.
At the stallion farm I worked at, I was responsible for dosing the stallions with demosedan before the farriers came to ensure that no one got hurt. I was responsible for adminstering Lutalyse to mares as prescribed by our reproductive vet.
This thread has so much bad info.
Why don't we qualify our answers by stating if you really know what you are talking about or if you are projecting what you think the laws are. :rolleyes:

[chadk66]

Where do you get your info. It is bad. As being in the business for 15 years in both racing and farm owner you are really selling bad info here. At the track you are allowed to have oral meds if you have a script and are following treatment guidelines as prescribed by the vet. No injectables of any kind. At the farm you are allowed to use injectables. Why on earth anyone would use lasix on the farm is beyond me, but as far as banamine or any other prescribed meds go, your vet gives you the meds with a treatment plan and you follow the directions. You think a vet is going to come out everyday and inject your PenG, your crazy. If it is available OTC you go to tractor supply see the link. http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/search/horse-antibiotics_facet
At the stallion farm I worked at, I was responsible for dosing the stallions with demosedan before the farriers came to ensure that no one got hurt. I was responsible for adminstering Lutalyse to mares as prescribed by our reproductive vet.
This thread has so much bad info.
Why don't we qualify our answers by stating if you really know what you are talking about or if you are projecting what you think the laws are. :rolleyes:yea it's rather perplexing isn't it.

[Ruffian1]

Where do you get your info. It is bad. As being in the business for 15 years in both racing and farm owner you are really selling bad info here. At the track you are allowed to have oral meds if you have a script and are following treatment guidelines as prescribed by the vet. No injectables of any kind. At the farm you are allowed to use injectables. Why on earth anyone would use lasix on the farm is beyond me, but as far as banamine or any other prescribed meds go, your vet gives you the meds with a treatment plan and you follow the directions. You think a vet is going to come out everyday and inject your PenG, your crazy. If it is available OTC you go to tractor supply see the link. http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/search/horse-antibiotics_facet
At the stallion farm I worked at, I was responsible for dosing the stallions with demosedan before the farriers came to ensure that no one got hurt. I was responsible for adminstering Lutalyse to mares as prescribed by our reproductive vet.
This thread has so much bad info.
Why don't we qualify our answers by stating if you really know what you are talking about or if you are projecting what you think the laws are. :rolleyes:

Amen to that.:ThmbUp:

[proximity]

No, it isn't illegal and it doesn't help. Horse on farm presents with colic; the vet is unavailable. Trainer gives horse a banamine shot. Trainer did not commit a crime.

did anyone ever see the episode of mash where pierce and hunnicutt treated the colonel's horse for colic? :D

if penn national was open back then they woulda been ed bain's!!!!! ;)

[Donttellmeshowme]

injecting what? banamine and lasix are only in injectable form.



come on Chad im talking joints. Im talking injecting hocks, stifles, ankles, knees. Its illegal as all get out on the farm or on the track if a trainer is doing the injecting and hes not licensed.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Have any of you guys seen the Michael Gill video about Penn National?
It seems (if his evidence is true) he does a decent job of putting the puzzle pieces together.

http://www.stateofcorruption.org/2015/03/wrong-side-of-tracks.html





That video definetely has some legs for sure. Hes done a damn good of piecing it together.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Where do you get your info. It is bad. As being in the business for 15 years in both racing and farm owner you are really selling bad info here. At the track you are allowed to have oral meds if you have a script and are following treatment guidelines as prescribed by the vet. No injectables of any kind. At the farm you are allowed to use injectables. Why on earth anyone would use lasix on the farm is beyond me, but as far as banamine or any other prescribed meds go, your vet gives you the meds with a treatment plan and you follow the directions. You think a vet is going to come out everyday and inject your PenG, your crazy. If it is available OTC you go to tractor supply see the link. http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/search/horse-antibiotics_facet
Always had a bottle of banamine or demosedan on hand to treat a horse. First thing my vet would tell me on the phone, give some banamine and keep them walking, I will be there as soon as I can. Half the time the banamine would calm them down enough they would poop before the vet ever got there.
At the stallion farm I worked at, I was responsible for dosing the stallions with demosedan before the farriers came to ensure that no one got hurt. I was responsible for adminstering Lutalyse to mares as prescribed by our reproductive vet.
This thread has so much bad info.
Why don't we qualify our answers by stating if you really know what you are talking about or if you are projecting what you think the laws are. :rolleyes:






Let me clarify myself.


Im not talking about oral meds or lasix. When i say treatment im saying injecting joints. It is ILLEGAL for a trainer that is not licensed to inject at the farm, at the track, at his house, in his bathroom, at the city bar, etc etc. Now is it done at the farm? Yep sure is. Is it done at the track? Not really but ive seen trainers inject there own horses at the track.

[turninforhome10]

Let me clarify myself.


Im not talking about oral meds or lasix. When i say treatment im saying injecting joints. It is ILLEGAL for a trainer that is not licensed to inject at the farm, at the track, at his house, in his bathroom, at the city bar, etc etc. Now is it done at the farm? Yep sure is. Is it done at the track? Not really but ive seen trainers inject there own horses at the track.
Why don't you show us the PA code of laws where this is stated. And you have been there and actually seen a joint injection? What meds were used. Enlighten us.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Why don't you show us the PA code of laws where this is stated. And you have been there and actually seen a joint injection? What meds were used. Enlighten us.





Yes i have seen a joint injection at the track done by a trainer. What did he use to inject? Im sure Depo and maybe some acid was used i didnt go up to him and really ask him.

[chadk66]

come on Chad im talking joints. Im talking injecting hocks, stifles, ankles, knees. Its illegal as all get out on the farm or on the track if a trainer is doing the injecting and hes not licensed.well you didn't state injecting joints. but I have a shock for you. It's not illegal either in any state I know of. the state looks at them as livestock, no different than a cow or goat. don't think any state would give a rats behind if you injected the joint of a cow

[chadk66]

Why don't you show us the PA code of laws where this is stated. And you have been there and actually seen a joint injection? What meds were used. Enlighten us.don't hold your breath.

[turninforhome10]

don't hold your breath.
I think we are getting ethical and legal confused.

[chadk66]

I think we are getting ethical and legal confused.very possible. wouldn't be the first time that has happened on here;)

[Appy]

Why don't you show us the PA code of laws where this is stated. And you have been there and actually seen a joint injection? What meds were used. Enlighten us.

Don't know about PA, but in every state I've run in it is illegal for a trainer to possess a syringe needle, on his person, in his barn, vehicle, trailer, etc while on the grounds. Period.
But having said that, I've never once seen a search conducted.

[chadk66]

Don't know about PA, but in every state I've run in it is illegal for a trainer to possess a syringe needle, on his person, in his barn, vehicle, trailer, etc while on the grounds. Period.
But having said that, I've never once seen a search conducted.he is not referring to on the grounds of a track.

[turninforhome10]

Don't know about PA, but in every state I've run in it is illegal for a trainer to possess a syringe needle, on his person, in his barn, vehicle, trailer, etc while on the grounds. Period.
But having said that, I've never once seen a search conducted.
The code cited
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter163/s163.302.html

[chadk66]

I've saw it happen on three or four occasions. found needles/syringes on at least two of them. I don't recall the penalty. Might have been a one year ban if I recall.

[Donttellmeshowme]

well you didn't state injecting joints. but I have a shock for you. It's not illegal either in any state I know of. the state looks at them as livestock, no different than a cow or goat. don't think any state would give a rats behind if you injected the joint of a cow





You right any state could care less about injecting a cow that you are right on. But im pretty sure the racing commission and state police care if a trainer is not a licensed vet is caught injecting a joint on a Thoroughbred horse either at the track or at a farm. That im pretty sure im right on.


A trainer injecting a Thoroughbred race horse joints at a farm or at the track and hes not licensed is ILLEGAL if he /she got caught. 10000% fact...

[Donttellmeshowme]

Why don't you show us the PA code of laws where this is stated. And you have been there and actually seen a joint injection? What meds were used. Enlighten us.




Have no clue what the PA code is nor should i care. I dont race there so dont know what it is.

[Saratoga_Mike]

What idiot trainer taps their own horses on or off track? Giving a shot of banamine is one thing, tapping is another.

[Donttellmeshowme]

What idiot trainer taps their own horses on or off track? Giving a shot of banamine is one thing, tapping is another.



this guy won races so i wouldnt call him an idiot

[Saratoga_Mike]

this guy won races so i wouldnt call him an idiot

Ok, I will especially if he was doing knees.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Ok, I will especially if he was doing knees.




Whats so hard about knees? vet showed him how to do it. Sold the meds to him with the needles and did it himself. Saved his owner a bunch of money.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Whats so hard about knees? vet showed him how to do it. Sold the meds to him with the needles and did it himself. Saved his owner a bunch of money.

The knee is vastly more complex than the ankle

[chadk66]

You right any state could care less about injecting a cow that you are right on. But im pretty sure the racing commission and state police care if a trainer is not a licensed vet is caught injecting a joint on a Thoroughbred horse either at the track or at a farm. That im pretty sure im right on.


A trainer injecting a Thoroughbred race horse joints at a farm or at the track and hes not licensed is ILLEGAL if he /she got caught. 10000% fact...you stating that is not fact. absolutely nothing illegal about tapping a knee on a horse farm of any breed of horse in any state I know of. post the state laws against this and I think you will convince us. Otherwise your just trying to blow smoke up our canals.

[chadk66]

any dumb ass can tap a joint on a horse. your killing me smells

[Saratoga_Mike]

any dumb ass can tap a joint on a horse. your killing me smells

I had a trainer about 10 years who was better than a vet at figuring out what was wrong with a horse, but he'd never tap a knee. Never. You would?

[Donttellmeshowme]

The knee is vastly more complex than the ankle



Ok so you dont trust a trainer to inject knees then i get it.

[Donttellmeshowme]

you stating that is not fact. absolutely nothing illegal about tapping a knee on a horse farm of any breed of horse in any state I know of. post the state laws against this and I think you will convince us. Otherwise your just trying to blow smoke up our canals.





Go to the farm Chad and start tapping a horses joints and have the racing commission or state police pull up and start investigating and tell me how that turns out for you buddy.

[chadk66]

I had a trainer about 10 years who was better than a vet at figuring out what was wrong with a horse, but he'd never tap a knee. Never. You would?If I had to certainly. really not that big of a deal if you've seen it done a pile of times. If you've looked at hundreds of xrays of knees it's pretty easy to decipher exactly where to inject. but to each his own. And you know what else, my local cow vet couldn't detect a lame horse from a sound one so I could certainly tell what is wrong with my horses long before he could. that doesn't prove a thing other than he is better with cows than I am ;)

[chadk66]

Go to the farm Chad and start tapping a horses joints and have the racing commission or state police pull up and start investigating and tell me how that turns out for you buddy.I this is your way of saying you have nothing to back up your statements. Keep on trolling, the entertainment value is priceless.

[Stillriledup]

If I had to certainly. really not that big of a deal if you've seen it done a pile of times. If you've looked at hundreds of xrays of knees it's pretty easy to decipher exactly where to inject. but to each his own. And you know what else, my local cow vet couldn't detect a lame horse from a sound one so I could certainly tell what is wrong with my horses long before he could. that doesn't prove a thing other than he is better with cows than I am ;)

I think this example proves that certain trainers can do certain vetwork. Unfortunately, many trainers got their licenses out of cracker jack boxes and don't know one end of a horse from the other.

[Donttellmeshowme]

I this is your way of saying you have nothing to back up your statements. Keep on trolling, the entertainment value is priceless.




yea im a troll and ur a has been trainer

[chadk66]

yea im a troll and ur a has been trainerwhatever floats your boat dude. :cool:

[lamboguy]

after 40 years of this, the best therapy i have ever seen for joints is an IRAP. i have a vet in Ohio that does it. a horse will be out of training for over 6 months though. the procedure is done 4 or 5 times spread out about 2 weeks at a time. first you draw blood from the horse and then you freeze the plasma, you then inject the horse joint or joints with his own plasma. i have never seen better results. a matter of fact i have seen horses run until they turn 10 at more than bottom levels without needing to be tapped again.

its not a cheap procedure and its not an instant fix, plus you have to be a good trainer to bring a horse back off this long a layoff.

i know someone that did this procedure to a horse about a year ago and i am waiting for him to run. i think he will be in Woodbine soon.

i haven't done this myself in over 5 years and i might be slightly off in the procedure because i know there is something else added to the plasma and can't remember what it is.

the other thing that i know that is being used is a therapy called magna wave. i know that Ken Ramsey swears by this and has a special person that runs around the country with a magna wave machine for his horses. i tried it and didn't do any good with it.

[davew]

You right any state could care less about injecting a cow that you are right on. But im pretty sure the racing commission and state police care if a trainer is not a licensed vet is caught injecting a joint on a Thoroughbred horse either at the track or at a farm. That im pretty sure im right on.


A trainer injecting a Thoroughbred race horse joints at a farm or at the track and hes not licensed is ILLEGAL if he /she got caught. 10000% fact...

There are some issues here that need clarified before legality declared

1- Is the person 'injecting' an owner, employee, or vet

2- what is being injected - an over the counter substance or controlled substance?

3- if on a racetrack, what are you injecting with if needles and syringe are not allowed except by track licensed vets?

4- is the substance being injected a prohibited substance? or what is the withholding period before racing or slaughter and is it being recorded and followed.


ps - There are some substances that USDA and states will throw you in jail if you are caught injecting into a cow. Some of these have long withholding times and animal may never be allowed to go to slaughter.

[Donttellmeshowme]

There are some issues here that need clarified before legality declared

1- Is the person 'injecting' an owner, employee, or vet

2- what is being injected - an over the counter substance or controlled substance?

3- if on a racetrack, what are you injecting with if needles and syringe are not allowed except by track licensed vets?

4- is the substance being injected a prohibited substance? or what is the withholding period before racing or slaughter and is it being recorded and followed.


ps - There are some substances that USDA and states will throw you in jail if you are caught injecting into a cow. Some of these have long withholding times and animal may never be allowed to go to slaughter.





Dave im talking about race horses not cows

[davew]

Dave im talking about race horses not cows

so was I, just stating some of your 10000% was wrong

[chadk66]

don't feed the troll

[Donttellmeshowme]

yep im a troll think i will change my name to TROLL

[chadk66]

yep im a troll think i will change my name to TROLLmake it Donttroll :D

[Tom]

There are some issues here that need clarified before legality declared

1- Is the person 'injecting' an owner, employee, or vet

2- what is being injected - an over the counter substance or controlled substance?

3- if on a racetrack, what are you injecting with if needles and syringe are not allowed except by track licensed vets?

4- is the substance being injected a prohibited substance? or what is the withholding period before racing or slaughter and is it being recorded and followed.


ps - There are some substances that USDA and states will throw you in jail if you are caught injecting into a cow. Some of these have long withholding times and animal may never be allowed to go to slaughter.

Good questions, Dave.....good thing for us all trainers are 100% honest and reliable and would NEVER break the rules of put horse or rider in harm's way.
What more do we need than their word for it?

[chadk66]

There are some issues here that need clarified before legality declared

1- Is the person 'injecting' an owner, employee, or vet

2- what is being injected - an over the counter substance or controlled substance?

3- if on a racetrack, what are you injecting with if needles and syringe are not allowed except by track licensed vets?

4- is the substance being injected a prohibited substance? or what is the withholding period before racing or slaughter and is it being recorded and followed.


ps - There are some substances that USDA and states will throw you in jail if you are caught injecting into a cow. Some of these have long withholding times and animal may never be allowed to go to slaughter.I'm curious what the substances are the USDA will throw you in jail for if caught injecting into a cow.

[proximity]

Have any of you guys seen the Michael Gill video about Penn National?
It seems (if his evidence is true) he does a decent job of putting the puzzle pieces together.

http://www.stateofcorruption.org/2015/03/wrong-side-of-tracks.html

in this video, what motivation would "tony k" have to fix races? and what jockeys was he telling to pull horses? yes, i'm friends with the guy but it makes no sense.

[CryingForTheHorses]

yea im a troll and ur a has been trainer

I really dont know why you have resorted to name calling when someone is just trying to point out to you his opinion,Injecting any horse is "The beginning of the end" for all horses,Some it helps and some it does nothing but make things worse.I myself have never heard of anyone being arrested for injecting their horse,Yes it would be illegal on the track but who is to say what you can and cant do with your own animal at a farm,I agree its not right but then a lot of things are not right with racing..IMO..The only person who should inject a horse is a vet.

[Donttellmeshowme]

I really dont know why you have resorted to name calling when someone is just trying to point out to you his opinion,Injecting any horse is "The beginning of the end" for all horses,Some it helps and some it does nothing but make things worse.I myself have never heard of anyone being arrested for injecting their horse,Yes it would be illegal on the track but who is to say what you can and cant do with your own animal at a farm,I agree its not right but then a lot of things are not right with racing..IMO..The only person who should inject a horse is a vet.





He called me a troll so wheres his post directed at him for calling me names?

[CryingForTheHorses]

He called me a troll so wheres his post directed at him for calling me names?


:lol: :lol: :lol:..You are right!!....Im not sure what name is worse..A troll or a has been!!!

JMO...Its always better to let a vet do any injecting,needles etc...As for Trolls and hasbeens..I guess it better then a neverwas!!

Deal with it!....This is a forum!

[onefast99]

I really dont know why you have resorted to name calling when someone is just trying to point out to you his opinion,Injecting any horse is "The beginning of the end" for all horses,Some it helps and some it does nothing but make things worse.I myself have never heard of anyone being arrested for injecting their horse,Yes it would be illegal on the track but who is to say what you can and cant do with your own animal at a farm,I agree its not right but then a lot of things are not right with racing..IMO..The only person who should inject a horse is a vet.
Tom you nailed this one big time, I had a stakes horse with at the time a young trainer(who has since won the Belmont)he got lots of practice on my horse having the vet inject her for every race, she eventually was sold as a broodmare after winning over $450,000. I was new to the game I didn't know any better if I knew then what I know now there wouldn't have been any injections not one. It's an ugly part of the game and one that will never change.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Tom you nailed this one big time, I had a stakes horse with at the time a young trainer(who has since won the Belmont)he got lots of practice on my horse having the vet inject her for every race, she eventually was sold as a broodmare after winning over $450,000. I was new to the game I didn't know any better if I knew then what I know now there wouldn't have been any injections not one. It's an ugly part of the game and one that will never change.





And that horse might not have won $450K had it not been injected.

[chadk66]

it all boils down to what is being injected and how many times. Injecting a horse once or twice with corizone is of basically no consequence. Hell I've had five cortizone injections in the past two years. would be a miserable SOB without em just to do daily activities. Now, if you want to start doing that quite frequently or more than a couple of times in a joint there will be consequences.

[onefast99]

And that horse might not have won $450K had it not been injected.
Speculation.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Speculation.

..but probably a good bet.

[onefast99]

..but probably a good bet.
Eventually injecting a horse results in bigger problems down the line especially those who inject horses that have chips which only mask the problem and doesn't cure it.
No one knows if a horse could have made more or less if it wasn't for the injections but my particular horse had so many injections it ended up shortening her race career. I'm proud to say she is a broodmare in Japan having had 4 foals and we get pictures of her on the farm every so often.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Speculation.




Fact

[Appy]

"who is to say what you can and cant do with your own animal at a farm"

That right there is part of a huge problem. People seem to be of the opinion ownership is license for abuse, and that they, the owner, decides what is abuse and what isn't.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Fact

Closer to fact than not, imo

[chadk66]

"who is to say what you can and cant do with your own animal at a farm"

That right there is part of a huge problem. People seem to be of the opinion ownership is license for abuse, and that they, the owner, decides what is abuse and what isn't.the biggest problem is who is going to be king and determine what is abuse and what isn't. most people with common sense won't have a problem figuring that out. however, there are extremists on both sides with their heads planted firmly in their hinders.;)

[onefast99]

Fact
Dont tell me show me, thanks.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Dont tell me show me, thanks.




As involved in horse racing like you are you should know that if your not doing any vet work you are not winning consistently. Yea you might win a race here and there but to win consistently you have to give some help to the horse.

[onefast99]

As involved in horse racing like you are you should know that if your not doing any vet work you are not winning consistently. Yea you might win a race here and there but to win consistently you have to give some help to the horse.
I only made a simple comment that if I had known this was going to diminish this horses racing career and possible earnings potential I would have put an end to the "excessive" injections. You are correct horses do need a little help but at what point do we actually know if what is being done is beneficial or counter productive.

[Shemp Howard]

http://pennsylvaniaequestrian.com/news2015/may/All-Four-Vets-Plead-Guilty-Agree-to-Cooperate-in-Investigation.php#/popup

According to the US Attorney, things have been crooked at this dump since 1986.

Surprised?

[proximity]

http://pennsylvaniaequestrian.com/news2015/may/All-Four-Vets-Plead-Guilty-Agree-to-Cooperate-in-Investigation.php#/popup

According to the US Attorney, things have been crooked at this dump since 1986.

Surprised?

only 1986?

wells, that is surprising!! ;)

[Stillriledup]

only 1986?

wells, that is surprising!! ;)

30 years of deceit. :(

[chadk66]

only 1986?

wells, that is surprising!! ;)no that's reassuring :D

[proximity]

Have any of you guys seen the Michael Gill video about Penn National?
It seems (if his evidence is true) he does a decent job of putting the puzzle pieces together.

http://www.stateofcorruption.org/2015/03/wrong-side-of-tracks.html

meanwhile, mr gill is now running for GOVERNOR.

predicts 35 more arrests @ pen...

http://www.stateofcorruption.org/

[Stillriledup]

meanwhile, mr gill is now running for GOVERNOR.

predicts 35 more arrests @ pen...

http://www.stateofcorruption.org/

He will win hands down, people are sick and tired of "politics as usual" this guy will clean up all the corruption for sure.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Wow,That's quite a article!.Is he serious?..Im not so sure he is,He is going to have many enemies on the hunt for him,This guy will need to live in a fortress and travel around in a bomb proof truck,It would be wonderful to do a state by state sweep,Oh wait On to Florida to check on his other enemies..He has many here also.Good Luck to him!

[HalvOnHorseracing]

The reality or perception of racing as a game overwhelmed by cheats, trainers stretching the rules, unscrupulous vets, and complicit racing officials is as insidious a problem as racing has. We don't know the precise percentage of trainers or vets who are unscupulous, but we know that the perception is that the number is not insiginificant. The damge this does to racing goes far beyond any other any other problem racing may have.

One of the telling things about the Penn National case was that it was the feds who seemed central to the investigation. There can be no excuse for states not ferreting out the truth, not lack of funds, not lack of manpower. There is no bigger job that racetracks have than running an honest operation.

Once again, I think the fans of racing could be far more proactive than they are. Despite the difficulty of pulling it off, fans have the ultimate power through their betting dollars. If it is unacceptable to us that abuse of drugs is too large a part of the racetrack culture; if it is unacceptable to us that takeout rates are too high; if it is unacceptable to us that we are treated as unimportant by the very tracks we support; then we have to exert the only real power we have. The power not to participate until the problems that make us cynical about racing are addressed effectively by the states. We've been complaining for decades to little avail if the posts in this thread are right. We need to do one of two things: say, enough is enough and act or accept it and figure out a way to beat the game the way it is and will continue to be.

[chadk66]

The reality or perception of racing as a game overwhelmed by cheats, trainers stretching the rules, unscrupulous vets, and complicit racing officials is as insidious a problem as racing has. We don't know the precise percentage of trainers or vets who are unscupulous, but we know that the perception is that the number is not insiginificant. The damge this does to racing goes far beyond any other any other problem racing may have.

One of the telling things about the Penn National case was that it was the feds who seemed central to the investigation. There can be no excuse for states not ferreting out the truth, not lack of funds, not lack of manpower. There is no bigger job that racetracks have than running an honest operation.

Once again, I think the fans of racing could be far more proactive than they are. Despite the difficulty of pulling it off, fans have the ultimate power through their betting dollars. If it is unacceptable to us that abuse of drugs is too large a part of the racetrack culture; if it is unacceptable to us that takeout rates are too high; if it is unacceptable to us that we are treated as unimportant by the very tracks we support; then we have to exert the only real power we have. The power not to participate until the problems that make us cynical about racing are addressed effectively by the states. We've been complaining for decades to little avail if the posts in this thread are right. We need to do one of two things: say, enough is enough and act or accept it and figure out a way to beat the game the way it is and will continue to be.but you've been telling us we've been blowing the problems with racing way out of proportion. so what is it? the fans need to revolt? or the fans need to understand there isn't a problem, just a perception?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

but you've been telling us we've been blowing the problems with racing way out of proportion. so what is it? the fans need to revolt? or the fans need to understand there isn't a problem, just a perception?

What I said is that the perception of a problem is as insidious as a real problem, and racetracks have a responsibility to tell us which it is - a few bad apples that give the game a bad name or a widespread problem. My opinion on which of the two it is does not change the reality, which I argue we don't really know beyond the published statistics, which you seem to think are laugable diversions from the reality, much like you apparently thought anyone who believed the 13,926 published papers linking human activity to climate change vs. the 24 who didn't were, and I quote, an "ass clown." My opinion on what fans should do also remains the same whether the problem is widespread or in small pockets. For those of us tired of hearing that cheating is widespread with a lack of statistical evidence to back that up, the answer is to investigate, and if the tracks won't investigate without motivation, then yes the fans should give it to them. If the problem is people will not believe the statistics, then tracks have a responsibility prove the statistics are the truth. There are always going to be whiners and unbelievers. Why you seem to need to turn everything into a personal attack against me speaks volumes about your character. Mine was an intelligent, contributive post. How about next time instead of taking a personal shot you tell me whether or not the idea has merit. And if you can't think of anything other than a shot at me, why don't you save it. It's gotten pretty old.

In my dreams I would love to know who you really are, so I can talk with your contemporaries and report back. I'll bet that would make a fun thread.

[Donttellmeshowme]

So 4 vets get nailed at Penn? Damn that must be all the vets at that track who is treating the horses at Penn now?

[proximity]

One of the telling things about the Penn National case was that it was the feds who seemed central to the investigation. There can be no excuse for states not ferreting out the truth, not lack of funds, not lack of manpower. There is no bigger job that racetracks have than running an honest operation.

Once again, I think the fans of racing could be far more proactive than they are. Despite the difficulty of pulling it off, fans have the ultimate power through their betting dollars. If it is unacceptable to us that abuse of drugs is too large a part of the racetrack culture; if it is unacceptable to us that takeout rates are too high; if it is unacceptable to us that we are treated as unimportant by the very tracks we support; then we have to exert the only real power we have. The power not to participate until the problems that make us cynical about racing are addressed effectively by the states. .

at penn national it's mostly about slots $ so any power our betting handle has is severely diluted. most pennsylvania bettors serious enough to be on a site like this probably dropped out anyhow after they implemented the ridiculous source market fee.

mr gill seems to feel that both the state commission and the track itself are involved in the corruption. idk how true that is but maybe they wanted us to drop out of the pools? :confused: seems a little far fetched to me that all of these people at pen are making big money through this cantor gaming thing though?? :confused: :confused:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

at penn national it's mostly about slots $ so any power our betting handle has is severely diluted. most pennsylvania bettors serious enough to be on a site like this probably dropped out anyhow after they implemented the ridiculous source market fee.

mr gill seems to feel that both the state commission and the track itself are involved in the corruption. idk how true that is but maybe they wanted us to drop out of the pools? :confused: seems a little far fetched to me that all of these people at pen are making big money through this cantor gaming thing though?? :confused: :confused:

I generally agree that Penn National Gaming is about the casino business, although there is one sliver. Most of the states that got in bed with the casino companies put clauses in that without the horseracing there would be no casino, and in Pennsylvania's case that's horseracing at one of the tracks all year. I'm sure the casino would survive, but it might give them a bit of a pinch.

If I'm the governor, I'm appointing an independent investigator with the power to subpoena. Gill needs to be corroborated or refuted and with bullet proof evidence. And if he is right, heads need to roll in the public square, including maybe taking some gaming licenses away from the companies.

[Donttellmeshowme]

I generally agree that Penn National Gaming is about the casino business, although there is one sliver. Most of the states that got in bed with the casino companies put clauses in that without the horseracing there would be no casino, and in Pennsylvania's case that's horseracing at one of the tracks all year. I'm sure the casino would survive, but it might give them a bit of a pinch.

If I'm the governor, I'm appointing an independent investigator with the power to subpoena. Gill needs to be corroborated or refuted and with bullet proof evidence. And if he is right, heads need to roll in the public square, including maybe taking some gaming licenses away from the companies.





Now that i agree with you on.

[proximity]

I generally agree that Penn National Gaming is about the casino business, although there is one sliver. Most of the states that got in bed with the casino companies put clauses in that without the horseracing there would be no casino, and in Pennsylvania's case that's horseracing at one of the tracks all year. I'm sure the casino would survive, but it might give them a bit of a pinch.

If I'm the governor, I'm appointing an independent investigator with the power to subpoena. Gill needs to be corroborated or refuted and with bullet proof evidence. And if he is right, heads need to roll in the public square, including maybe taking some gaming licenses away from the companies.

(1)exactly. live horse-betting handle is so far down the trough in terms of importance to purses here that it is practically irrelevant.

(2) i wouldn't count on new governor tom wolf (d) to launch any kind of investigation into something that mr gill claims former gov ed rendell (aka ed "randall" :D ) is/was highly involved in.

[chadk66]

What I said is that the perception of a problem is as insidious as a real problem, and racetracks have a responsibility to tell us which it is - a few bad apples that give the game a bad name or a widespread problem. My opinion on which of the two it is does not change the reality, which I argue we don't really know beyond the published statistics, which you seem to think are laugable diversions from the reality, much like you apparently thought anyone who believed the 13,926 published papers linking human activity to climate change vs. the 24 who didn't were, and I quote, an "ass clown." My opinion on what fans should do also remains the same whether the problem is widespread or in small pockets. For those of us tired of hearing that cheating is widespread with a lack of statistical evidence to back that up, the answer is to investigate, and if the tracks won't investigate without motivation, then yes the fans should give it to them. If the problem is people will not believe the statistics, then tracks have a responsibility prove the statistics are the truth. There are always going to be whiners and unbelievers. Why you seem to need to turn everything into a personal attack against me speaks volumes about your character. Mine was an intelligent, contributive post. How about next time instead of taking a personal shot you tell me whether or not the idea has merit. And if you can't think of anything other than a shot at me, why don't you save it. It's gotten pretty old.

In my dreams I would love to know who you really are, so I can talk with your contemporaries and report back. I'll bet that would make a fun thread.the whole global warming issue has pretty much been blown out of the water. The number of believers plummets daily and for good reason. I do agree with you we don't know how many trainers are juicing. But it's more than most skeptics want to believe. That I'm pretty confident about. I don't think your post was so intelligent. I think it was riddled with BS to be honest. But that's just my opinion.

[Stillriledup]

the whole global warming issue has pretty much been blown out of the water. The number of believers plummets daily and for good reason. I do agree with you we don't know how many trainers are juicing. But it's more than most skeptics want to believe. That I'm pretty confident about. I don't think your post was so intelligent. I think it was riddled with BS to be honest. But that's just my opinion.

But aren't skeptics by nature the type of people who think there's widespread cheating? Is it even more than the most skeptical person? I would think that the cheating is less than someone who's very skeptical but more than a person who thinks the game is mostly honest.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

the whole global warming issue has pretty much been blown out of the water. The number of believers plummets daily and for good reason. I do agree with you we don't know how many trainers are juicing. But it's more than most skeptics want to believe. That I'm pretty confident about. I don't think your post was so intelligent. I think it was riddled with BS to be honest. But that's just my opinion.

You simply cannot post something without taking a shot, can you.

Blown out of the water? What a shock someone in the oil industry might think that. I hope you're not resting your case on Jim Inhofe bringing a snowball onto the floor of the Senate as "proof" the earth is not warming.

I'm wondering if that good reason the believers are plummeting is that they've proven the thermometer doesn't work, or the laws of physics and chemistry have been suspended? You figure the last 400 years of measuring temperature have all been an illusion? You think the property of carbon dioxide to absorb heat was just a big goof on humanity? I'd love to read a post from you where you actually cite some piece of tangible proof for any of your positions. A statistic, a report....anything beyond the less than definitive explanation that you just know.

Just remember. 13,926 to 24. And get the terminology right. The term is climate change. But look at the bright side. A 25% increase in deniers brings you up to 30!

[proximity]

so due to "climate change" the vets could be in even hotter water than thespaah originally suggested? :D

[HalvOnHorseracing]

so due to "climate change" the vets could be in even hotter water than thespaah originally suggested? :D

Being this is a horseracing site, I apologize for momentarily hijacking it to respond to someone who I should have known better than to engage.

[PaceAdvantage]

Being this is a horseracing site, I apologize for momentarily hijacking it to respond to someone who I should have known better than to engage.We have an entire off-topic section of this forum where one can debate forever global warming, religion (oh boy, is there a thread for that), along with everything else non-racing related.

Thanks for getting back on topic.

[chadk66]

You simply cannot post something without taking a shot, can you.

Blown out of the water? What a shock someone in the oil industry might think that. I hope you're not resting your case on Jim Inhofe bringing a snowball onto the floor of the Senate as "proof" the earth is not warming.

I'm wondering if that good reason the believers are plummeting is that they've proven the thermometer doesn't work, or the laws of physics and chemistry have been suspended? You figure the last 400 years of measuring temperature have all been an illusion? You think the property of carbon dioxide to absorb heat was just a big goof on humanity? I'd love to read a post from you where you actually cite some piece of tangible proof for any of your positions. A statistic, a report....anything beyond the less than definitive explanation that you just know.

Just remember. 13,926 to 24. And get the terminology right. The term is climate change. But look at the bright side. A 25% increase in deniers brings you up to 30!I'm old enough to remember the earths greatest scientists warning the next ice age was only a few years away. that was in the 70's lol. man made global warming is the biggest hoax ever portrayed on the american people. just follow the money. it's gotten to the point it's laughable now.

[chadk66]

sorry but I responded because I was quoted.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I'm old enough to remember the earths greatest scientists warning the next ice age was only a few years away. that was in the 70's lol. man made global warming is the biggest hoax ever portrayed on the american people. just follow the money. it's gotten to the point it's laughable now.

"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."
John Kenneth Galbraith

[ilzho]

Yet another example of why some people view horse racing the same as used car salesman.
Time for people to rat out the bad apples of this industry/sport.
It's a great sport, with great horses.

There are a few bad trainers, vets, jockeys that are killing this industry.
Time to get these people out of the industry and clean up the sport. Get the meds/drugs out. Not every horse needs/can race. No need for meds to royal screw up the horse (in the long run).

If you're of the school of thought that it's too hard to clean up the sport or that no one listens or cares, try again, try harder, go up the chain of command, talk to people, get friends involved, get politicians involved (wait they are part of the problem), talk to law enforcement, talk to judges.
You get the jist.
I'll step off of my soapbox.

Remember, Rome wasn't built in one day, but it was destroyed in one.

[proximity]

gentlemen, right now we have big problems at penn national no matter what the temperature is outside.

mr gill is predicting 35 arrests. and I, myself, am predicting 34.

even with clean racing though there is still the elephant in room that is Hollywood casino brand management.

i don't know about you, but i prefer to not be a SUCKER and instead like to gamble at tracks and casinos that have (GASP!!) ACTUAL COMPS for games of skill. :eek:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

If there is a constant, it is that most politicians see gambling as a nuisance. It comes with a built-in sleaze factor that originated in the days when organized crime ruled the gambling roost. In my opinion the people they appoint to oversee the industry for the state are often underqualified or just politically connected.

I believe drugs like flunixin and phenylbutazone are not the problem we really need to solve. What we want to find are real performance enhancing substances. From the research I have done most of the racing public, much like racing commissions, do not sufficiently discriminate between legal therapeutic medications that can have minimal performance enhancing effects and illegal performance enhancing substances that have little, if any, therapeutic value. No question that overages of legal therapeutics should be dealt with, but I believe it is equally important to find the actual PEDs, and frankly when I read about the big bust of a trainer using guiafenesin, an expectorant and cough treatment, I tend to shrug. Busted for Mucinex.

I have no idea what the people in Penn will be busted for, but I hope it is more than therapeutic overages. I stay away from PA racing for various reasons, the biggest of which is that the people managing the operation really don't care about horseracing. It would be insane to bet into a pool with a 30% take as well.

[Stillriledup]

If there is a constant, it is that most politicians see gambling as a nuisance. It comes with a built-in sleaze factor that originated in the days when organized crime ruled the gambling roost. In my opinion the people they appoint to oversee the industry for the state are often underqualified or just politically connected.

I believe drugs like flunixin and phenylbutazone are not the problem we really need to solve. What we want to find are real performance enhancing substances. From the research I have done most of the racing public, much like racing commissions, do not sufficiently discriminate between legal therapeutic medications that can have minimal performance enhancing effects and illegal performance enhancing substances that have little, if any, therapeutic value. No question that overages of legal therapeutics should be dealt with, but I believe it is equally important to find the actual PEDs, and frankly when I read about the big bust of a trainer using guiafenesin, an expectorant and cough treatment, I tend to shrug. Busted for Mucinex.

I have no idea what the people in Penn will be busted for, but I hope it is more than therapeutic overages. I stay away from PA racing for various reasons, the biggest of which is that the people managing the operation really don't care about horseracing. It would be insane to bet into a pool with a 30% take as well.

Tracks think gamblers are stupid, so they'll bust a trainer for something and then figure the idiot gambler will be happy and content that they (the tracks) are really fighting the 'war on drugs'.

A trainer who kills horses by jamming cobalt in their faces should be dealt with differently than someone who gets busted for Mucinex. You're right that these situations are not even close to being the same.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Tracks think gamblers are stupid, so they'll bust a trainer for something and then figure the idiot gambler will be happy and content that they (the tracks) are really fighting the 'war on drugs'.

A trainer who kills horses by jamming cobalt in their faces should be dealt with differently than someone who gets busted for Mucinex. You're right that these situations are not even close to being the same.

I think there are a few problems. People aren't pharmacologists. Flunixin, phenylbutazone, clenbuterol, furosemide - they all sound pretty "druggie," but as performance enhancing drugs they are not the equivalent of amphetamines. I've said before that you could take ibuprofen yesterday and have a picogram positive tomorrow, and I defy you to find a doctor that says it was still working as an analgesic, yet if you were a horse you're busted. Commissions spend a lot of money busting those guys while there is a suspicion there are more nefarious substances making the rounds, and then they sing the blues about having enough money for enforcement. It would be like police departments putting extraordinary effort into catching shoplifters while gang violence was rampant, and then saying, we don't have enough resources to fight gang violence. You have to prioritize the most heinous violations first and work your way down.

Whatever happens at Penn will make a huge splash. The people who think the game is crooked will be saying, I told you so. Most race fans will not have a cogent response. But in the end, if by some miracle we actually get rid of those playing fast and loose with the rules, we'll take some comfort; that is until there is another track with the same problem.

[rastajenk]

mr gill is predicting 35 arrests. and I, myself, am predicting 34.
You skippin' town? :p

[Stillriledup]

You skippin' town? :p

Wow, that's POY material. Very good. :D

[chadk66]

I think there are a few problems. People aren't pharmacologists. Flunixin, phenylbutazone, clenbuterol, furosemide - they all sound pretty "druggie," but as performance enhancing drugs they are not the equivalent of amphetamines. I've said before that you could take ibuprofen yesterday and have a picogram positive tomorrow, and I defy you to find a doctor that says it was still working as an analgesic, yet if you were a horse you're busted. Commissions spend a lot of money busting those guys while there is a suspicion there are more nefarious substances making the rounds, and then they sing the blues about having enough money for enforcement. It would be like police departments putting extraordinary effort into catching shoplifters while gang violence was rampant, and then saying, we don't have enough resources to fight gang violence. You have to prioritize the most heinous violations first and work your way down.

Whatever happens at Penn will make a huge splash. The people who think the game is crooked will be saying, I told you so. Most race fans will not have a cogent response. But in the end, if by some miracle we actually get rid of those playing fast and loose with the rules, we'll take some comfort; that is until there is another track with the same problem.100% agree with everything you just stated.

[Ruffian1]

I think there are a few problems. People aren't pharmacologists. Flunixin, phenylbutazone, clenbuterol, furosemide - they all sound pretty "druggie," but as performance enhancing drugs they are not the equivalent of amphetamines. I've said before that you could take ibuprofen yesterday and have a picogram positive tomorrow, and I defy you to find a doctor that says it was still working as an analgesic, yet if you were a horse you're busted. Commissions spend a lot of money busting those guys while there is a suspicion there are more nefarious substances making the rounds, and then they sing the blues about having enough money for enforcement. It would be like police departments putting extraordinary effort into catching shoplifters while gang violence was rampant, and then saying, we don't have enough resources to fight gang violence. You have to prioritize the most heinous violations first and work your way down.

Whatever happens at Penn will make a huge splash. The people who think the game is crooked will be saying, I told you so. Most race fans will not have a cogent response. But in the end, if by some miracle we actually get rid of those playing fast and loose with the rules, we'll take some comfort; that is until there is another track with the same problem.

Oh man, I fought this fight in Maryland for years back in the late 80's and 90's. I would talk to the Stewards about it and while they understood, they said they were bound by the rules. I talked to the MTHA about this, and nothing. I talked to racing commissioners about it but nothing. IMO, nothing was done to any degree because of the people involved. Several key positions on these boards were IMO as well as half the backsides, involved in the very thing I was complaining about. How frustrating is that!!
So, after 25 years, I walked. If you can't beat them, join them? If you ain't cheatin , you ain't tryin? Bull crap. Not for me. The game meant too much to me to dishonor it. Broke my heart at the time but it ended up being the 2nd best decision I ever made.
I root for you and any proponents of this thought process. Too me, you are spot on in your logic.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Oh man, I fought this fight in Maryland for years back in the late 80's and 90's. I would talk to the Stewards about it and while they understood, they said they were bound by the rules. I talked to the MTHA about this, and nothing. I talked to racing commissioners about it but nothing. IMO, nothing was done to any degree because of the people involved. Several key positions on these boards were IMO as well as half the backsides, involved in the very thing I was complaining about. How frustrating is that!!
So, after 25 years, I walked. If you can't beat them, join them? If you ain't cheatin , you ain't tryin? Bull crap. Not for me. The game meant too much to me to dishonor it. Broke my heart at the time but it ended up being the 2nd best decision I ever made.
I root for you and any proponents of this thought process. Too me, you are spot on in your logic.


The sad thing about this game now is a trainer is only as good as his last start,Too many backstabbing people telling a owner while the trainer is back at the barn working ,How much better they could do with the horse,I feel many of these guys are resorting to using illegal drugs to keep their owners and to keep their horses as long as they run good. Myself I had a leading trainer title last spring and am down to 1 horse because of the bad mouthing.I myself wont resort to cheating and if a owner wants to go with a guy that has a cheaters record so be it .This game you can be a hero in the first race and a POS after the last..Good luck to the cheaters..Your time is coming!

[HalvOnHorseracing]

The sad thing about this game now is a trainer is only as good as his last start,Too many backstabbing people telling a owner while the trainer is back at the barn working ,How much better they could do with the horse,I feel many of these guys are resorting to using illegal drugs to keep their owners and to keep their horses as long as they run good. Myself I had a leading trainer title last spring and am down to 1 horse because of the bad mouthing.I myself wont resort to cheating and if a owner wants to go with a guy that has a cheaters record so be it .This game you can be a hero in the first race and a POS after the last..Good luck to the cheaters..Your time is coming!

Check out my blog halveyonhorseracing.com. Click on Stories and Reporting. I do a lot of writing on trainers that have been treated poorly by racing commissions. If you're interested, we can talk about doing a story.

Are you the same Lisa McFarland who rode Rick's Natural Star?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

100% agree with everything you just stated.

I'm going to check and see if climate change has hit hell and it's frozen over.

It's a joke for chrissakes!

[cj]

Check out my blog halveyonhorseracing.com. Click on Stories and Reporting. I do a lot of writing on trainers that have been treated poorly by racing commissions. If you're interested, we can talk about doing a story.

Are you the same Lisa McFarland who rode Rick's Natural Star?

Tom Schell, believe Lisa is his wife.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Check out my blog halveyonhorseracing.com. Click on Stories and Reporting. I do a lot of writing on trainers that have been treated poorly by racing commissions. If you're interested, we can talk about doing a story.

Are you the same Lisa McFarland who rode Rick's Natural Star?

Thomas R Schell..Just wondering,Where did you come up with Lisa's name from my post..Yes she is my wife and yes the same lady who rode Rick!

You cam PM me that info..Thanks

[proximity]

You skippin' town? :p

:D :D :D


http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1802919&postcount=141

mr gill himself was a very successful man but still brought in people like cole norman to become a "world champion of horseracing."

so I guess anyone has the potential to cheat, but I just don't see the motive here. 34 arrests.

[chadk66]

I'm going to check and see if climate change has hit hell and it's frozen over.

It's a joke for chrissakes!who is this chris sakes your referring to? :D I'm really not as big of an assclown as I come across sometimes. I have been having a bad week:cool:

[MJC922]

If there is a constant, it is that most politicians see gambling as a nuisance. It comes with a built-in sleaze factor that originated in the days when organized crime ruled the gambling roost. In my opinion the people they appoint to oversee the industry for the state are often underqualified or just politically connected.

I believe drugs like flunixin and phenylbutazone are not the problem we really need to solve. What we want to find are real performance enhancing substances. From the research I have done most of the racing public, much like racing commissions, do not sufficiently discriminate between legal therapeutic medications that can have minimal performance enhancing effects and illegal performance enhancing substances that have little, if any, therapeutic value. No question that overages of legal therapeutics should be dealt with, but I believe it is equally important to find the actual PEDs, and frankly when I read about the big bust of a trainer using guiafenesin, an expectorant and cough treatment, I tend to shrug. Busted for Mucinex.

I have no idea what the people in Penn will be busted for, but I hope it is more than therapeutic overages. I stay away from PA racing for various reasons, the biggest of which is that the people managing the operation really don't care about horseracing. It would be insane to bet into a pool with a 30% take as well.

I respectfully disagree, give me a horse with an ankle and some bute it's going to be trivial for me to keep you (the handicapper) zigging when you should be zagging. The dosages of these legal drugs are easily manipulated. Most of the stables are betting that's why when we talk about getting rid of the legal stuff there's a huge outcry because it's a giant edge for them to know 'when'. The illegal stuff you're focusing on is IMO being used by a miniscule percentage of trainers. I think that's a serious issue but in terms of the frequency it's impacting the handicapper IMO it's a lesser problem. The vast majority of the trainers I believe are mostly honest hardworking people who of course want to cash some tickets but aren't going to venture into illegal meds to do it.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I respectfully disagree, give me a horse with an ankle and some bute it's going to be trivial for me to keep you (the handicapper) zigging when you should be zagging. The dosages of these legal drugs are easily manipulated. Most of the stables are betting that's why when we talk about getting rid of the legal stuff there's a huge outcry because it's a giant edge for them to know 'when'. The illegal stuff you're focusing on is IMO being used by a miniscule percentage of trainers. I think that's a serious issue but in terms of the frequency it's impacting the handicapper IMO it's a lesser problem. The vast majority of the trainers I believe are mostly honest hardworking people who of course want to cash some tickets but aren't going to venture into illegal meds to do it.

I believe I've had this exact discussion on the Kellyn Gorder thread. RCI statistics suggest 99.6% compliance with drug and medication standards and out of over 324,000 post-race blood and urine tests, only 47 were for Class 1 or 2 substances. If you buy RCI, neither therapeutics nor PEDs are an issue. Any suggestion that trainers are manipulating dosages seems to fly in the face of the published statistics. The question I have consistently asked is, how are you fooling testing machines that can detect picogram levels of 1,800 substances? Obviously horses metabolize substances at different rates, and it isn't unheard of for trainers to push the envelope by slightly increasing dose or reducing withdrawal time on horses that metabolize those substance quicker. It is likely Scott Lake was doing that with stanozolol late last year. Of course you may need a cooperating veterinarian willing to risk his livelihood. You may need cooperating stewards who help by not investigating or being inept. You need the conspiracy of silence on the backside. As much research as I've done I've heard

- most trainers are honest and it's a few bad apples
- most trainers look to gain an edge one way or another
- it's the alchemists with illegal substances we need to worry about
- the alchemists are trivial, it's legal drugs that are being manipulated
- trainers don't have syringes around; it's too risky
- trainers hide their syringes well; investigators aren't finding them

And the people I've heard it from are trainers, backside workers, vets, pharmacologists. So you have RCI statistics that say therapeutic medications aren't being abused, at least if you buy the statistic. My work has revealed the adoption of RCI standards that are designed to essentially eliminate use of a particular drug (Banamine for example). I also know that a drug like Banamine at the standard dose loses it's analgesic effect after about 16 hours with around 36 hours for the anti-inflammatory effect (and currently has a recommended withdrawal time of 32 hours). Essentially, there is no performance enhancing impact if you follow the protocol. Based on the Banamine positives that occurred after the adoption of the 20 ng standards, it's a stretch to believe trainers are manipulating dosages. The fact must be that either the statistics or the anecdote are correct. Either the ultra-sensitive mass spectrometers are being fooled or there is not any hanky panky going on. It can't be both. Standards that are generous are becoming less and less common. But trainers are fooling themselves if they believe a lasix shot at 3.5 hours instead of 4 and no post race positive means they pulled a fast one. The horse simply had to have metabolized the drug so that levels were below the post-race standard, and that is the entire point of having standards. That's not alchemy, that's science.

It's pretty maddening really. The truth seems to be whatever you need it to be. Either trainers and vets are geniuses at beating the system and it's only a few dimwits that get nailed, or things just aren't that bad.

[thaskalos]

I believe I've had this exact discussion on the Kellyn Gorder thread. RCI statistics suggest 99.6% compliance with drug and medication standards and out of over 324,000 post-race blood and urine tests, only 47 were for Class 1 or 2 substances. If you buy RCI, neither therapeutics nor PEDs are an issue. Any suggestion that trainers are manipulating dosages seems to fly in the face of the published statistics. The question I have consistently asked is, how are you fooling testing machines that can detect picogram levels of 1,800 substances? Obviously horses metabolize substances at different rates, and it isn't unheard of for trainers to push the envelope by slightly increasing dose or reducing withdrawal time on horses that metabolize those substance quicker. It is likely Scott Lake was doing that with stanozolol late last year. Of course you may need a cooperating veterinarian willing to risk his livelihood. You may need cooperating stewards who help by not investigating or being inept. You need the conspiracy of silence on the backside. As much research as I've done I've heard

- most trainers are honest and it's a few bad apples
- most trainers look to gain an edge one way or another
- it's the alchemists with illegal substances we need to worry about
- the alchemists are trivial, it's legal drugs that are being manipulated
- trainers don't have syringes around; it's too risky
- trainers hide their syringes well; investigators aren't finding them

And the people I've heard it from are trainers, backside workers, vets, pharmacologists. So you have RCI statistics that say therapeutic medications aren't being abused, at least if you buy the statistic. My work has revealed the adoption of RCI standards that are designed to essentially eliminate use of a particular drug (Banamine for example). I also know that a drug like Banamine at the standard dose loses it's analgesic effect after about 16 hours with around 36 hours for the anti-inflammatory effect (and currently has a recommended withdrawal time of 32 hours). Essentially, there is no performance enhancing impact if you follow the protocol. Based on the Banamine positives that occurred after the adoption of the 20 ng standards, it's a stretch to believe trainers are manipulating dosages. The fact must be that either the statistics or the anecdote are correct. Either the ultra-sensitive mass spectrometers are being fooled or there is not any hanky panky going on. It can't be both. Standards that are generous are becoming less and less common. But trainers are fooling themselves if they believe a lasix shot at 3.5 hours instead of 4 and no post race positive means they pulled a fast one. The horse simply had to have metabolized the drug so that levels were below the post-race standard, and that is the entire point of having standards. That's not alchemy, that's science.

It's pretty maddening really. The truth seems to be whatever you need it to be. Either trainers and vets are geniuses at beating the system and it's only a few dimwits that get nailed, or things just aren't that bad.

This would make an interesting poll question.

[MJC922]

This would make an interesting poll question.

Not really, it's a strawman argument. Most should have no trouble at all using legal meds and dosages that aren't overages to gain an edge on the public at large.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Not really, it's a strawman argument. Most should have no trouble at all using legal meds and dosages that aren't overages to gain an edge on the public at large.

With all due respect, I can't make any sense out of that statement. If you are using legal meds and you aren't testing positive post race, isn't that compliance? We know that jurisdictions are most definitely testing for the legal therapeutics. Moreover, are trainers trying to gain an edge on the public, or are they just trying to win a race, get a purse and build a reputation? You're going to have to run through the scenario that trainers are using AND fooling the apparently inept compliane authorities.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I believe I've had this exact discussion on the Kellyn Gorder thread. RCI statistics suggest 99.6% compliance with drug and medication standards and out of over 324,000 post-race blood and urine tests, only 47 were for Class 1 or 2 substances. If you buy RCI, neither therapeutics nor PEDs are an issue. Any suggestion that trainers are manipulating dosages seems to fly in the face of the published statistics. The question I have consistently asked is, how are you fooling testing machines that can detect picogram levels of 1,800 substances? Obviously horses metabolize substances at different rates, and it isn't unheard of for trainers to push the envelope by slightly increasing dose or reducing withdrawal time on horses that metabolize those substance quicker. It is likely Scott Lake was doing that with stanozolol late last year. Of course you may need a cooperating veterinarian willing to risk his livelihood. You may need cooperating stewards who help by not investigating or being inept. You need the conspiracy of silence on the backside. As much research as I've done I've heard

- most trainers are honest and it's a few bad apples
- most trainers look to gain an edge one way or another
- it's the alchemists with illegal substances we need to worry about
- the alchemists are trivial, it's legal drugs that are being manipulated
- trainers don't have syringes around; it's too risky
- trainers hide their syringes well; investigators aren't finding them

And the people I've heard it from are trainers, backside workers, vets, pharmacologists. So you have RCI statistics that say therapeutic medications aren't being abused, at least if you buy the statistic. My work has revealed the adoption of RCI standards that are designed to essentially eliminate use of a particular drug (Banamine for example). I also know that a drug like Banamine at the standard dose loses it's analgesic effect after about 16 hours with around 36 hours for the anti-inflammatory effect (and currently has a recommended withdrawal time of 32 hours). Essentially, there is no performance enhancing impact if you follow the protocol. Based on the Banamine positives that occurred after the adoption of the 20 ng standards, it's a stretch to believe trainers are manipulating dosages. The fact must be that either the statistics or the anecdote are correct. Either the ultra-sensitive mass spectrometers are being fooled or there is not any hanky panky going on. It can't be both. Standards that are generous are becoming less and less common. But trainers are fooling themselves if they believe a lasix shot at 3.5 hours instead of 4 and no post race positive means they pulled a fast one. The horse simply had to have metabolized the drug so that levels were below the post-race standard, and that is the entire point of having standards. That's not alchemy, that's science.

It's pretty maddening really. The truth seems to be whatever you need it to be. Either trainers and vets are geniuses at beating the system and it's only a few dimwits that get nailed, or things just aren't that bad.


One big thing you are forgetting,Just because a drug has a withdrawal time say 48 hours,Trainers and vet can push the time closer to the race and risk a positive...Giving banimine say 38 hours and bute 16 hourse out would make the drug a little better in their systems?. Im sure this happens a lot!

[MJC922]

With all due respect, I can't make any sense out of that statement. If you are using legal meds and you aren't testing positive post race, isn't that compliance? We know that jurisdictions are most definitely testing for the legal therapeutics. Moreover, are trainers trying to gain an edge on the public, or are they just trying to win a race, get a purse and build a reputation? You're going to have to run through the scenario that trainers are using AND fooling the apparently inept compliane authorities.

Ok, I have a horse as I said with some ankle soreness, it's a nagging injury but it's not like the horse is dead lame, the horse can still compete with a legal dosage of bute. He's in for 15k he runs a good race on bute, let's say finishes second, next start, same thing put him in for 15k on bute and he throws a dull race for whatever reason runs 5th or 6th as the favorite, these things happen. So we have one bad line on him, drop a peg to 12k today, one bad line doesn't scare the public off too much so he takes money anyway, even with one bad line he's going favorite or co-fav for 12k, I didn't treat with bute today OR if I did then I know it's trace amount which won't be enough for that ankle, YOU Mr. Handicapper don't know that. He runs 4th. So now I'm in really good shape, two off the board and the public gets skeptical, other trainers even may be skeptical, maybe even to the point where I can jam him in for 10k either way it's all good, I treat him with bute and he fires one of those bang-up 15k caliber efforts and wins in a driving finish for the 12k. Now I probably cashed out pretty good at 5-2, probably would've been twice that without my money on him. Next start let's leave him in for 12k, now Mr. Handicapper is back on the boat, why treat him with bute today, today he's in the pick-3 he'll be 8/5, let's not worry about the claim others who have owned him before probably know there's an ankle, leave him in for 12k and leave him off your pick-3, he'll have a third of the pool and the take is 20%, bet money blindly and long-term you win. Horse runs 4th or 5th off the bute. Now I have options, I can jam for 10k treat and romp, probably lose the horse but cash out easy enough or even jump up to 15k where Mr. Handicapper will have serious doubts. Rinse and repeat.

You see where we're going here, Mr. Handicapper? You are the fool in this scenario.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Ok, I have a horse as I said with some ankle soreness, it's a nagging injury but it's not like the horse is dead lame, the horse can still compete with a legal dosage of bute. He's in for 15k he runs a good race on bute, let's say finishes second, next start, same thing put him in for 15k on bute and he throws a dull race for whatever reason runs 5th or 6th as the favorite, these things happen. So we have one bad line on him, drop a peg to 12k today, one bad line doesn't scare the public off too much so he takes money anyway, even with one bad line he's going favorite or co-fav for 12k, I didn't treat with bute today OR if I did then I know it's trace amount which won't be enough for that ankle, YOU Mr. Handicapper don't know that. He runs 4th. So now I'm in really good shape, two off the board and the public gets skeptical, other trainers even may be skeptical, maybe even to the point where I can jam him in for 10k either way it's all good, I treat him with bute and he fires one of those bang-up 15k caliber efforts and wins in a driving finish for the 12k. Now I probably cashed out pretty good at 5-2, probably would've been twice that without my money on him. Next start let's leave him in for 12k, now Mr. Handicapper is back on the boat, why treat him with bute today, today he's in the pick-3 he'll be 8/5, let's not worry about the claim others who have owned him before probably know there's an ankle, leave him in for 12k and leave him off your pick-3, he'll have a third of the pool and the take is 20%, bet money blindly and long-term you win. Horse runs 4th or 5th off the bute. Now I have options, I can jam for 10k treat and romp, probably lose the horse but cash out easy enough or even jump up to 15k where Mr. Handicapper will have serious doubts. Rinse and repeat.

You see where we're going here, Mr. Handicapper? You are the fool in this scenario.

If the issue is odds manipulation, I've suggested that has gone on since, I don't know, 1722 or so. It may be the ugly part of the game, but until the racing commissions decide change the rules to make trainer wagering illegal, it will be hard to stop. It is not illegal to not treat your horse. And it works the other way as well. A C Avila used acepromazine to dull the performance of a first time starter and pulled a betting coup (apparently) the next time out.

I believe on the bigger circuits this is not as large an issue because the purses are more substantial. Not to say it doesn't happen.

This is a non-issue in terms of my practice. What I am trying to discern is whether the RCI statistics are right, in which case racing does not appear to have a rampant drug problem, or if they are misleading because they are not testing for the real PEDs.

I win far too often to worry about the betting coup scenario. But I appreciate the clarification.

[thaskalos]

I win far too often...
I wish I could say the same... :)

[HalvOnHorseracing]

One big thing you are forgetting,Just because a drug has a withdrawal time say 48 hours,Trainers and vet can push the time closer to the race and risk a positive...Giving banimine say 38 hours and bute 16 hourse out would make the drug a little better in their systems?. Im sure this happens a lot!

Frankly I think trainers who have figured out ways to use legal therapeutics to get the best performance out of their horse are taking advantage of what the system gives them. Where I started on this thread is that legal therapeutics are not really the issue racing needs to deal with, and I don't think anything here has changed my mind. I think too many trainers get busted for flunixin, there's a big splash , more crap about how racing is overrun with drugs, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Racing has lots of problems. I have argued all along they need to be prioritized and the enforcement effort placed on the largest problem, and I don't think that is most of the legal therapeutics.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I wish I could say the same... :)

I post all my NYRA picks on my web site. Everyone is welcome to borrow them! :)

[Ruffian1]

Having no bute or lasix in a horses system is considered a positive if you entered and said you would be using it and your test comes back showing it was not in the horses system.

As for thinking that giving 1/2 the typical dose or 1/3rd the typical dose of bute and that dose difference can effect a bad ankle to win or be 4th or whatever is IMO ridiculous. Great theory for a customer to come up with as to how a trainer can cash tickets but it makes no sense and holds no merit. There is no way it could alter the outcome as described a few statements back. It does not work that way and any trainer that says otherwise is flat out wrong or lying.
Lastly, 99% of trainers that bet, stink at it. Customers should hope that trainers bet . It increases the money in the pool to pay the winners.
So much of this stuff is a myth.

[MJC922]

Having no bute or lasix in a horses system is considered a positive if you entered and said you would be using it and your test comes back showing it was not in the horses system.

As for thinking that giving 1/2 the typical dose or 1/3rd the typical dose of bute and that dose difference can effect a bad ankle to win or be 4th or whatever is IMO ridiculous. Great theory for a customer to come up with as to how a trainer can cash tickets but it makes no sense and holds no merit. There is no way it could alter the outcome as described a few statements back. It does not work that way and any trainer that says otherwise is flat out wrong or lying.
Lastly, 99% of trainers that bet, stink at it. Customers should hope that trainers bet . It increases the money in the pool to pay the winners.
So much of this stuff is a myth.

Then don't use it at all if it doesn't matter, ok? It shouldn't matter to you if it's banned on race-day. Use it between races under training, use it when the horse isn't in a race for therapeutic purposes, not when MY money is involved. Use common sense, you're saying dosage of a painkiller doesn't make a difference in performance, I guess the homeopathic amount of Advil works the same on my backache as three or four tablets.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Having no bute or lasix in a horses system is considered a positive if you entered and said you would be using it and your test comes back showing it was not in the horses system.

As for thinking that giving 1/2 the typical dose or 1/3rd the typical dose of bute and that dose difference can effect a bad ankle to win or be 4th or whatever is IMO ridiculous. Great theory for a customer to come up with as to how a trainer can cash tickets but it makes no sense and holds no merit. There is no way it could alter the outcome as described a few statements back. It does not work that way and any trainer that says otherwise is flat out wrong or lying.
Lastly, 99% of trainers that bet, stink at it. Customers should hope that trainers bet . It increases the money in the pool to pay the winners.
So much of this stuff is a myth.





Are you saying that Bute is not a performance enhancer?

[Robert Goren]

Lastly, 99% of trainers that bet, stink at it. Customers should hope that trainers bet . It increases the money in the pool to pay the winners.
So much of this stuff is a myth. You must know different trainers than I have known over my 50 years of following the ponies. The trainers who would stink at betting, don't bet or they would out of the business quickly. I will say this, trainers who I knew who bet were generally very conservative in their bets and did not tear up many tickets. (My dad use to make some bets for a trainer.) Now the stable help is a different story entirely.

[Ruffian1]

Then don't use it at all if it doesn't matter, ok? It shouldn't matter to you if it's banned on race-day. Use it between races under training, use it when the horse isn't in a race for therapeutic purposes, not when MY money is involved. Use common sense, you're saying dosage of a painkiller doesn't make a difference in performance, I guess the homeopathic amount of Advil works the same on my backache as three or four tablets.

Slant it any way you want too. It makes no difference to me. What you wrote made and makes, no realistic sense. Don't broaden the statement. Let's use what you said.
I stand behind my answer because 27 years of experience gives me no choice.
I am here to try and help anyone that wants it. I am not here to argue with someone that does not. My answers are free, honest and without any agenda, except against those cheating bastards that corrupt the sport I came to love and dedicated many years of my life too. That is a rare find these days.
Best of luck to you.

[Ruffian1]

Are you saying that Bute is not a performance enhancer?

No. I clearly stated what I said the first time and I never said that did I.

[Ruffian1]

You must know different trainers than I have known over my 50 years of following the ponies. The trainers who would stink at betting, don't bet or they would out of the business quickly. I will say this, trainers who I knew who bet were generally very conservative in their bets and did not tear up many tickets. (My dad use to make some bets for a trainer.) Now the stable help is a different story entirely.

I would tend to agree Bob. Those conservative bettors might very well make a buck, but the conversation I was referring too, spoke about trainers changing the amount of bute given to "cash bets" that , by reference from the other poster, made it sound like they were living on those cashed amounts.
I would tend to think that both you and I understand the conservative trainers that have a clue also would not stoop to the level that the poster was referring too.
I watched many a supposed high rolling sharp, that pulled horses or tried whatever they might, try and fail time and again, and again. So much so that it became a joke. What I thought as a young green horn might be the way the backside actually was, quickly turned into a joke of a road that I watched many a loser take as I learned the game. All in Maryland. In the early 70's and forward.
Hope that clears up my stance Bob.

[Ruffian1]

Then don't use it at all if it doesn't matter, ok? It shouldn't matter to you if it's banned on race-day. Use it between races under training, use it when the horse isn't in a race for therapeutic purposes, not when MY money is involved. Use common sense, you're saying dosage of a painkiller doesn't make a difference in performance, I guess the homeopathic amount of Advil works the same on my backache as three or four tablets.

Following up, what I think you fail to realize is that by the time the horse runs, it is a trace level basically. Maybe you think that the horses are loaded up with painkiller. They are absolutely not with bute. It is a small level. So small that the difference between the max level allowed and 1/2 or 1/3rd that, would not matter when it came to a bad ankle which is what was suggested.It just would not.
I don't want to argue or defend anything. I am trying to pass on fact from experience. No more , no less.

[Ruffian1]

You must know different trainers than I have known over my 50 years of following the ponies. The trainers who would stink at betting, don't bet or they would out of the business quickly. I will say this, trainers who I knew who bet were generally very conservative in their bets and did not tear up many tickets. (My dad use to make some bets for a trainer.) Now the stable help is a different story entirely.

Too be clear Bob, twenty across buys a steak dinner for 2 and for those conservative trainers, who I was one of, sure, I agree.
But the trainer that bets thousands in various pools and pays the bills for months at a time? No sir. For every one that does, there are two dozen who tried and failed, at least. Those are the folks that I was speaking about because that was what I felt was being implied in the response about bute dosage.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Following up, what I think you fail to realize is that by the time the horse runs, it is a trace level basically. Maybe you think that the horses are loaded up with painkiller. They are absolutely not with bute. It is a small level. So small that the difference between the max level allowed and 1/2 or 1/3rd that, would not matter when it came to a bad ankle which is what was suggested.It just would not.
I don't want to argue or defend anything. I am trying to pass on fact from experience. No more , no less.

Yes, banamine and bute, the ibuprofen and acetaminophen of horses, are not raceday medications. Banamine at one time was a 24 hour withdrawal drug, but now has an RCI standard of 20 nanograms/milliliter, which for a 10 cc shot means closer to a 32 hour withdrawal time. A nanogram is a billionth of a gram, so 20 of them is not very much at all. With banamine, the analgesic effect (this would be considered the performance enhancing effect) is completely gone by 16 hours. The anti-inflammatory effect may last up to 36 hours, and taking the swelling out of a joint can help the horse to run more naturally. I guarantee you a horse is not getting a bute or banamine shot and at 24 hours running through pain. It is also very important to treat any inflammation because allowing it to continue without one of the NSAIDs can create worse problems in the joint. For me, bute and banamine are therapeutics that are part of caring for an athlete, no less than what you would see in any professional sport. The difference is that in most sports (and the Olympics) medications like ibuprofen are legal on game day. Most professional sports are interested in eliminating real performance enhancing drugs like amphetamines and steroids. While there has to be some consideration for the fact that the horse cannot consent to treatment, for the most part the RCI standards are protective in terms of limiting overages of approved therapeutics. Perhaps too much so.

[MJC922]

Following up, what I think you fail to realize is that by the time the horse runs, it is a trace level basically. Maybe you think that the horses are loaded up with painkiller. They are absolutely not with bute. It is a small level. So small that the difference between the max level allowed and 1/2 or 1/3rd that, would not matter when it came to a bad ankle which is what was suggested.It just would not.
I don't want to argue or defend anything. I am trying to pass on fact from experience. No more , no less.

Here's what I know Ruffian1, many horses have some soreness, can we agree on that? and if I don't treat one of these horses with your 'trace amount' it's very likely to cover the race distance a fraction of a second slower than it otherwise would. Let's see if we can agree on that first.

[Ruffian1]

Here's what I know Ruffian1, many horses have some soreness, can we agree on that? and if I don't treat one of these horses with your 'trace amount' it's very likely to cover the race distance a fraction of a second slower than it otherwise would. Let's see if we can agree on that first.

Most horses in training and racing do indeed have some type of soreness somewhere. That soreness is not a soreness that would cause limping or such, but more of an everyday ache or pain that people would feel if working physically daily. Of course I will agree on that. But...

If you don't treat the horse and the horse was entered as treated, that is a positive in the eyes of the Stewards. No bute in the system is a positive if you entered to race on it and did not race on it. That is deceiving the public in the eyes of the Stewards. I hope that makes sense.

[MJC922]

Too be clear Bob, twenty across buys a steak dinner for 2 and for those conservative trainers, who I was one of, sure, I agree.
But the trainer that bets thousands in various pools and pays the bills for months at a time? No sir. For every one that does, there are two dozen who tried and failed, at least. Those are the folks that I was speaking about because that was what I felt was being implied in the response about bute dosage.

I've observed trainers wagering a lot of money over the years, to the point where I would say more than few had gambling addictions just as bad as some of the players do. The trainers I observed who bet nearly every race every day were all 15-25% trainers and the 5% crowd didn't bet at all. I am quite sure the 15-25% group made money at the windows on their own horses and I would bet my own money like most people they probably lost betting on everyone else's, overall though I suspect the 25% people do just fine and the windows are an important source of supplemental income.

[MJC922]

Most horses in training and racing do indeed have some type of soreness somewhere. That soreness is not a soreness that would cause limping or such, but more of an everyday ache or pain that people would feel if working physically daily. Of course I will agree on that. But...

If you don't treat the horse and the horse was entered as treated, that is a positive in the eyes of the Stewards. No bute in the system is a positive if you entered to race on it and did not race on it. That is deceiving the public in the eyes of the Stewards. I hope that makes sense.

I understand. Thank you. Next question, is it possible to enter a horse to race on it one race and then not the next?

[Donttellmeshowme]

I understand. Thank you. Next question, is it possible to enter a horse to race on it one race and then not the next?




Yes.........

[Donttellmeshowme]

oops my bad

[Ruffian1]

I understand. Thank you. Next question, is it possible to enter a horse to race on it one race and then not the next?

For bute, yes, but if you play the on,off game, it will most assuredly be questioned. At least it would have 15 years ago from Md. to N.Y.
I don't want to speak to places I never raced or don't know about 1st hand.

As for Lasix, once you are on the program, if you get off the program you would need to re-qualify by bleeding and going through the state vet again, like you did the 1st time.

[CryingForTheHorses]

QUOTE Either trainers and vets are geniuses at beating the system and it's only a few dimwits that get nailed, or things just aren't that bad

Im sure you havent see all the banamine and bute overages in the state of florida...That because for some reason its hidden from the public..

Yes they are beating the system!!!

[HalvOnHorseracing]

QUOTE Either trainers and vets are geniuses at beating the system and it's only a few dimwits that get nailed, or things just aren't that bad

Im sure you havent see all the banamine and bute overages in the state of florida...That because for some reason its hidden from the public..

Yes they are beating the system!!!

The banamine overages happened everywhere for a while because they dropped the standard to 20 ng/mL. At that level if you treat 24 hours out you'll get 20-25% positives. Even the 20 ng standard is considered a 95/95 standard, meaning you have 95% confidence 95% of the horses will test clean. Even so, you expect 5% failures.

In considering where to set the standard RMTC commissioned a study. The conclusion of the study was that the standard should be set at 50 ng, based on a 10 cc dose and a 24-hour withdrawal. This would have yielded 99.9% compliance. However, RCI set the standard at 20 ng, arguing that that level would represent the 95/95 standard. Think about that for a minute - they set a standard they knew was going to yield 5% positives when the standard dosage and withdrawal time were applied. This seemed to be a backdoor attempt to eliminate banamine use. When the 20 ng standard was adopted by RCI, there were a rash of positives, as should have been expected, and RMTC commissioned additional testing. This testing showed the same thing as the first time, but instead of upping the standard, they changed the recommended withdrawal time from 24 to 32 hours, thus minimizing most of the drug's effectiveness.

I might argue that any rash of Banamine positives was intentional on the part of RCI as a means of getting rid of the drug.

I would agree with you that Florida has a funny system. When Julio Cartagena was essentially thrown out of the state, it was all done administratively. There was a consent agreement between the state and Cartagena in which he agreed to keep out of Florida and they agreed not to prosecute. This was despite numerous violations.

I will also tell you my general opinion that using Bute and Banamine therapeutically as they were intended, at the normal dosage and at a withdrawal time that allows for the therapeutic benefit without being performance enhancing is not cheating, even if they come back positive. I believe there has been a failure on the part of the horsemen to put sufficient pressure on racing commissions to adopt appropriate standards. If you read my piece on Bill Brashears, there are quotes from the RCI folks that make it clear if they could have their way, they would essentially run North America like Dubai or Hong Kong. The next best thing for RCI is setting standards trainers can't meet enough of the time so that they reconsider using those medications.

[lamboguy]

the above poster makes some good points but i have to disagree with the use of bute and banamine to train horses. i am not going to come on here and knock certain trainers who rely on these substances to train their horses instead of good horsemanship. not only does it make it a lot harder for a handicapper to pick races because of these medications, its no good for the horse in the long run. i have watched trainers that use these methods with my own 2 eyes and they lead the league in breakdown's in the morning and afternoon.

there are countless people that have given up betting horseracing and there are hardly any new faces that come to the game because of the drug problem.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

the above poster makes some good points but i have to disagree with the use of bute and banamine to train horses. i am not going to come on here and knock certain trainers who rely on these substances to train their horses instead of good horsemanship. not only does it make it a lot harder for a handicapper to pick races because of these medications, its no good for the horse in the long run. i have watched trainers that use these methods with my own 2 eyes and they lead the league in breakdown's in the morning and afternoon.

there are countless people that have given up betting horseracing and there are hardly any new faces that come to the game because of the drug problem.

The use of medications is a hot button issue in the sport. As I have pointed out, according to the RCI statistics, compliance with drug and medication standards is 99.6%. Violation of Class 1 and 2 substances was 47 positives out of 324,000 blood and urine tests. In 2014 cobalt, the latest horror drug, positives were 6, and that includes standardbreds. TCO2 positives in 2014 were 14. The interpretation of these statistics must be either

they aren't testing for the right substances or
there isn't a rampant problem

The question I've asked is, given the high compliance rate, is it fair to characterize racing as having a drug problem?

Another issue I've written about extensively is the failure to discriminate between positives for legal therapeutic medications and performance enhancing drugs. With no disrespect meant, horses are athletes and all athletes have aches and pains that do not keep them from competing if they are treated with therapeutics. When a baseball player has a sore muscle and takes a NSAID so he can play comfortably, would you argue he should be benched until he is completely pain free? If we benched all the football players with soreness, we'd never play a football game.The use of bute and banamine to deal with inflammation is actually in the best interest in the horse, because not using NSAIDs can actually create greater damage to the joint. Healing is promoted by getting rid of the inflammation, just like with humans. I don't know that you would find a veterinarian who would agree with you that horses should not be appropriately treated therapeutically just as we would do for any human athlete.

Can you abuse NSAIDs? Sure, and trainers who do that should be sanctioned. Should a vet inject a joint less than a week out from a race? Absolutely not. But I'm simply not sure I could buy that people leave the game because drugs have kept them from winning. People lose for various reasons - they can be poor handicappers, more likely they are poor bettors, but it is less likely they lose because they haven't figured out how to bet around drug use. It is a convenient boogeyman for both bettors and trainers, and most of the evidence is not statistical but anecdotal. The number of trainers using NSAIDs and Lasix comes close to universal, but if they use the medications properly, in the right dose, they are not compromising the horse any more than you might compromise your health by taking an aspirin every day.

I've asked and asked how we can have 99.6% compliance and a drug problem and I've yet to get an answer more detailed than, you have no idea how much cheating is going on. Probably not, but it would take a massive conspiracy to keep things buried for as long as they've arguably been. The toughest thing about this argument is that the statistics seem completely unconvincing to people, and it's hard to contemplate what will be convincing.

Let me be crystal clear. I would not argue for the indiscriminate use of any therapeutic medication, but I would argue for the treatment of horses as we would treat any athlete. With the right dose of a therapeutic, a dose that protects the health of the horse, does not create performance enhancement, and does not lead to post race positives.

[MJC922]

For bute, yes, but if you play the on,off game, it will most assuredly be questioned. At least it would have 15 years ago from Md. to N.Y.
I don't want to speak to places I never raced or don't know about 1st hand.

As for Lasix, once you are on the program, if you get off the program you would need to re-qualify by bleeding and going through the state vet again, like you did the 1st time.

Thank you Ruffian1. My thought is to tell these fine gentlemen my horse has sore feet and I use the bute from time to time to relieve the sting of the cuppy surface, however I don't want to use it indefinitely due to the risk of developing ulcers. I'm quite confident this will go unchallenged and now I'm on my merry way. Is bute even noted anymore in the PPs? At one time it was but that was several decades back and never was dosage info made available but you're indicating dosage would not be relevant, I would prefer to let hard data show me the relevance and I believe the drug info should be made more visible to the customers.

[chadk66]

Having no bute or lasix in a horses system is considered a positive if you entered and said you would be using it and your test comes back showing it was not in the horses system.

As for thinking that giving 1/2 the typical dose or 1/3rd the typical dose of bute and that dose difference can effect a bad ankle to win or be 4th or whatever is IMO ridiculous. Great theory for a customer to come up with as to how a trainer can cash tickets but it makes no sense and holds no merit. There is no way it could alter the outcome as described a few statements back. It does not work that way and any trainer that says otherwise is flat out wrong or lying.
Lastly, 99% of trainers that bet, stink at it. Customers should hope that trainers bet . It increases the money in the pool to pay the winners.
So much of this stuff is a myth.knocked it out of the park. And I was horrible at betting so rarely ever did.

[chadk66]

there are very few trainers that give bute to horses on a daily basis. I personally don't know one myself. Some horses will get treated for short periods of time as needed. But I think the majority of horses running on bute only get it at race time. Same with Banamine.

[CryingForTheHorses]

there are very few trainers that give bute to horses on a daily basis. I personally don't know one myself. Some horses will get treated for short periods of time as needed. But I think the majority of horses running on bute only get it at race time. Same with Banamine.



Im not sure when the last time you trained horses,But I beg to differ with you,I dont understand why you think this.!!...As for you not knowing anyone that ever did,I just dont believe that!..So them horses at a smaller B track with lots of problems just train on hay and oats..As for you saying Very few,You are very wrong!!!!

[chadk66]

Im not sure when the last time you trained horses,But I beg to differ with you,I dont understand why you think this.!!...As for you not knowing anyone that ever did,I just dont believe that!..So them horses at a smaller B track with lots of problems just train on hay and oats..As for you saying Very few,You are very wrong!!!!I'm referring to using it (pills) on every horse every day. nobody does that it would be stupid beyond belief.

[Shemp Howard]

The "Mayor of the Penn National Backstretch" has blogged his partners three trainers "have been asked to turn themselves in to the authorities on Friday."

Perhaps another shoe is about to drop?

[proximity]

The "Mayor of the Penn National Backstretch" has blogged his partners three trainers "have been asked to turn themselves in to the authorities on Friday."

Perhaps another shoe is about to drop?

please tell me you're not talking about that guy who is keeping track of "top 5" finishes at a track that's king of the six horse field?

if so, does anyone have an extra badge? we could name him sheriff too!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBzHq4g-nZs

[castaway01]

The "Mayor of the Penn National Backstretch" has blogged his partners three trainers "have been asked to turn themselves in to the authorities on Friday."

Perhaps another shoe is about to drop?

Thank God you're on the case with your vague idiotic comments "Shemp".

[proximity]

so far (with the exception of david wells) the whole thing has pretty much been another pen dog and pony show. just vets, clockers, and low % outfits. nothing the feds couldn't have gotten at ANY other track.

now I guess bob o is saying that it's gonna continue Friday?

probably not any major players (like mike gill is talking about) but more bad publicity for local racing. and what great timing, the day before a potential triple crown? corporate (slots) offices are probably laughing and smiling as the horsemen pound another nail into their own coffin.

[onefast99]

so far (with the exception of david wells) the whole thing has pretty much been another pen dog and pony show. just vets, clockers, and low % outfits. nothing the feds couldn't have gotten at ANY other track.

now I guess bob o is saying that it's gonna continue Friday?

probably not any major players (like mike gill is talking about) but more bad publicity for local racing. and what great timing, the day before a potential triple crown? corporate (slots) offices are probably laughing and smiling as the horsemen pound another nail into their own coffin.
Who cares what Gill has to say. If Penn needs to go in a different direction and the Pa racing commission agrees with them then racing will get a face lift at that track. Until then they are racing and trying to clean up a big mess that was overlooked for many years.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Who cares what Gill has to say. If Penn needs to go in a different direction and the Pa racing commission agrees with them then racing will get a face lift at that track. Until then they are racing and trying to clean up a big mess that was overlooked for many years.




I think they trying to clean up the place they know Gill is trying to stick it to those people he think we're corrupt at Penn. And aren't those same people still there?

[onefast99]

I think they trying to clean up the place they know Gill is trying to stick it to those people he think we're corrupt at Penn. And aren't those same people still there?
Slowly those who are the bad apples will leave on their own accord.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Slowly those who are the bad apples will leave on their own accord.




Correct but I'm wondering if those people are still there?

[onefast99]

Correct but I'm wondering if those people are still there?
Some are but notice has been served.

[proximity]

Who cares what Gill has to say. If Penn needs to go in a different direction and the Pa racing commission agrees with them then racing will get a face lift at that track. Until then they are racing and trying to clean up a big mess that was overlooked for many years.

who cares what gill has to say?

sure he brought in cole norman and a few other questionable characters but since he was once one of the biggest owners in the sport I AM interested in what he has to say. just like you have supported guys like scooter davis and i'm still interested in what you have to say.

if pen needs to go in a different direction....


if???? :rolleyes:

and mr gill is saying the racing commission is part of the problem, not part of the solution. in fact he is saying that the corruption basically goes all the way to the top and ex governor ed Rendell.

some of the stuff he's saying seems pretty far-fetched to me, but I know at least some of it IS true.

[Donttellmeshowme]

who cares what gill has to say?

sure he brought in cole norman and a few other questionable characters but since he was once one of the biggest owners in the sport I AM interested in what he has to say. just like you have supported guys like scooter davis and i'm still interested in what you have to say.

if pen needs to go in a different direction....


if???? :rolleyes:

and mr gill is saying the racing commission is part of the problem, not part of the solution. in fact he is saying that the corruption basically goes all the way to the top and ex governor ed Rendell.

some of the stuff he's saying seems pretty far-fetched to me, but I know at least some of it IS true.






just my opinion but i think the story has legs

[Saratoga_Mike]

Slowly those who are the bad apples will leave on their own accord.

Is this a joke?

[proximity]

made it out there tonight and it was a zoo....literally.

ostrich and camel racing.

congrats to bob o and renpher for a big win in the 8th!!

I believe he already was ahead of two recent leading trainers (only @pen :rolleyes: ) and I believe this win ties him with ness and jd conner @7 wins? :confused:

anyhow congratulations renpher and ttt 4 juice free racing!!

[Shemp Howard]

A monumental win!!!

Those $5K maiden claimers at Pen are some of the toughest races to win. Notice you don't see Todd Pletcher, Bob Baffert, or even D. Wayne Lukas even bothering to enter the fray.

[proximity]

didja see that shemp?

special event tomorrow morning @ pen!!

watch the horses train and (gasp) MEET THE HORSEMEN!!! :eek:

[proximity]

please tell me you're not talking about that guy who is keeping track of "top 5" finishes at a track that's king of the six horse field?


with the qualifier that we're now routinely running eight race cards, i'd like to apologize to everyone at penn national for this post. (seriously)