Fire Victor Espinoza

[mostpost]

Yeah, I know. Where does a guy who has ridden a horse once in his life get off telling a veteran trainer who to ride on his horse? In my opinion Espinoza is riding not to lose instead of riding to win. Instead of hanging his horse four wide in a half run in 49 seconds, he should have gone to the lead and said catch me if you can. California Chrome's best races have been when he has set or tracked a fast pace.

They also need to work Chrome faster. Prior to the San Antonio they worked Chrome seven furlongs. The time was quite slow-1:26 or slower I believe. Art Sherman was not happy, but Espinoza said he was afraid to let California Chrome work faster.

In my opinion, California Chrome needs to work fast; and he needs to race fast. Otherwise he gets in the habit of nonchalanting and when it is time to take off he continues to nonchalant.

I think the reason CC seemed to have such a kick in his earlier races is that he knocked the fight out of his rivals early.

[Dark Horse]

Clearly second best, but still a nice paycheck for Coburn and co.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Don't agree with you Most, but I think the owners will see it your way and force a change.

[Rex Phinney]

Got beat by a horse who was wider than he was around the far turn.

The winner today was the best horse hands down, there was nothing IMO that Espinoza could have done to change the outcome.

That being said Mike Smith embarrassed Espinoza in the San Antonio, the move Mike made to get CC on his toes early was brilliant. Espinoza is a good enough rider, but I don't think anything he does is going to propel a horse to a win. Meaning he wins only when he should.

[Relwob Owner]

Got beat by a horse who was wider than he was around the far turn.

The winner today was the best horse hands down, there was nothing IMO that Espinoza could have done to change the outcome.

That being said Mike Smith embarrassed Espinoza in the San Antonio, the move Mike made to get CC on his toes early was brilliant. Espinoza is a good enough rider, but I don't think anything he does is going to propel a horse to a win. Meaning he wins only when he should.


Perfectly said

[johnhannibalsmith]

I don't know if I'd fire him but since I rarely can find common ground with mostpost, I thought it was a pretty sleepy ride.

I understand the horse's tendencies and likes and dislikes and all that, but the winner caught him totally off-guard and that was only the final time in the course of the running that he looked to be riding like he was 1-9 in the Belmont and worried to death about asking the horse a nanosecond early.

[Some_One]

Yeah, I know. Where does a guy who has ridden a horse once in his life get off telling a veteran trainer who to ride on his horse? In my opinion Espinoza is riding not to lose instead of riding to win. Instead of hanging his horse four wide in a half run in 49 seconds, he should have gone to the lead and said catch me if you can. California Chrome's best races have been when he has set or tracked a fast pace.

They also need to work Chrome faster. Prior to the San Antonio they worked Chrome seven furlongs. The time was quite slow-1:26 or slower I believe. Art Sherman was not happy, but Espinoza said he was afraid to let California Chrome work faster.

In my opinion, California Chrome needs to work fast; and he needs to race fast. Otherwise he gets in the habit of nonchalanting and when it is time to take off he continues to nonchalant.

I think the reason CC seemed to have such a kick in his earlier races is that he knocked the fight out of his rivals early.

The DWC pace was quite hot, the leader did the 6f in 72.77, now adjust for the standing start and the fact the track rides slower then SA or CD, I would figure the 6f split would be close to a 70.5 at SA.

[letswastemoney]

Fractions over there shouldn't be taken literally, since they start the timer when the gates open.

African Story and Hokko Tarumae were both cooked.

California Chrome ran a big race withstanding the fast pace.

[OntheRail]

Fractions over there shouldn't be taken literally, since they start the timer when the gates open.

African Story and Hokko Tarumae were both cooked.

California Chrome ran a big race withstanding the fast pace.
No... it's our factions that should not be taken literary... with arbitrary run-ups and all.

[nearco]

Got beat by a horse who was wider than he was around the far turn.



Yes, they both ran the longest distance of any of the horses in the race and both ran more or less the same distance according to Trakus

Prince Bishop 2042 meters
Chrome 2044 meters

The Japanese horse that made the running and faded ran the shortest distance at 2025.

[PaceAdvantage]

Awwww, come on mostpost...Victor was just riding under the illusion all Chrome fans seem to be under...that he was on a freak...a monster horse...Horse of the Year...all that jazz...all that nonsense...

Well, there you go then...that's what you get when illusions are shattered...once again...

[Vinnie]

Yeah, I know. Where does a guy who has ridden a horse once in his life get off telling a veteran trainer who to ride on his horse? In my opinion Espinoza is riding not to lose instead of riding to win. Instead of hanging his horse four wide in a half run in 49 seconds, he should have gone to the lead and said catch me if you can. California Chrome's best races have been when he has set or tracked a fast pace.

They also need to work Chrome faster. Prior to the San Antonio they worked Chrome seven furlongs. The time was quite slow-1:26 or slower I believe. Art Sherman was not happy, but Espinoza said he was afraid to let California Chrome work faster.

In my opinion, California Chrome needs to work fast; and he needs to race fast. Otherwise he gets in the habit of nonchalanting and when it is time to take off he continues to nonchalant.

I think the reason CC seemed to have such a kick in his earlier races is that he knocked the fight out of his rivals early.


Mostpost:

I really enjoyed your post and I believe that you hit the nail right on the head. Chrome is used to being geared up. I don't believe that he is at the normal level of fitness that he was accustomed to being in for most of this past season. What ever happened to that high cruising speed, and the fact that he had no issues at all in maintaining that speed essentially over the entire oval? I love Chrome and he is a very good horse, but, he just hasn't had that gear that you allude to where he more or less rips the hearts out of his opponents. I don't know, maybe when he was on that awesome run during his three year old year and running those fabulous races, maybe he was just in that rhythm of his life that could be difficult or maybe impossible to get back. I love California Chrome, but, he simply hasn't been the same horse since being off and returning from the injury that he incurred at the Belmont Stakes. Go Chrome! :) I hope that Art and company can get him back to that level of fitness that we witnessed during that great run of his three year old campaign.

[PaceMasterT]

No... it's our factions that should not be taken literary... with arbitrary run-ups and all.

This is the post of the century. In this day and age, why can't everything be standard?

[pandy]

He ran gamely as he usually does. Four wide the entire race, game second. He's the same horse, just got beat by a horse that sat back off the pace and rallied. He's not a great horse, never was, but he is a very good horse.

[Some_One]

This is the post of the century. In this day and age, why can't everything be standard?

Similar to the issue with camera work, it's the American way that is not standard. As far as I know, no one else uses runups.

[thespaah]

You guys pointing out run ups...
Here's the rub..
These tracks in SW Asia and Europe have 4-5 day meets. Which means wear and tear on the racing surfaces is limited.
Over here in North American there are 4-6 week meetings and some lasting a good part of the year.
With that kind of pounding and of course with the majority of the races being 5.5 or 6f, placing the gate in the same spot so that the distance is always correct would place a tremendous amount of stress on the area where the gate is placed.
This is especially true with turf racing. Consider all or most of the non sprint turf races at 8 or 8.5f....Look at the condition of the GS turf course. It looks terrible. And that despite the 140 ft wide racing surface and the various available rail configurations. Imagine the condition of the turf is the gate placement was the same for every race at a particular distance.

[burnsy]

There were several factors that had nothing to do with the ride. The "visiting" horses have to deal with the heat....several horses were hot by the time they got to the gate yesterday. Watch the UAE Derby :7: Golden Barows was not happy. I like the different camera angles you can see that horse fighting the rider for over a quarter, he was hot entering the gate. Chrome looked ok but Prince Bishop and African Story looked like they were "at home". The American horses can't Lasix. The kick back was getting to some of the horses too. I think Chrome is out there to avoid that. Like any other sport, in horse racing maybe even more so, the home team has an advantage. Taking a short price on an American is a pretty bad bet. A lot of chalk won yesterday but the sprinter was our only short priced winner......we have the strongest dirt sprinters. Whose going to ride that horse better? Other than some guy with a "buzzer". And he still would of lost by daylight. Chrome is a nice horse, he matured faster than his generation did but his fans are out in left field, he's no Cigar or Curlin. I heard some of the "racing experts" calling him the best horse in the world... :lol: ..... The move to grass might be what he's best at anyway.

[NY BRED]

Get real, Chrome only won ONE race since May 17th which was held on the
Turf.

Parading this horse throughout the world to demonstrate how stupid these
owners are, and place the horse at risk benchmarks their interest in
raking in $$ rather than doing right for the horse.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Sherman resign as trainer, unless he is as stupid as these owners.

[upthecreek]

Get real, Chrome only won ONE race since May 17th which was held on the
Turf.

Parading this horse throughout the world to demonstrate how stupid these
owners are, and place the horse at risk benchmarks their interest in
raking in $$ rather than doing right for the horse.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Sherman resign as trainer, unless he is as stupid as these owners.

I dont think Sherman is stupid, i think hes caught up in the moment CC is the really first big horse he has had, I think hell stay the course and look at all the $ he's making ,hard to give that up.

[Some_One]

Get real, Chrome only won ONE race since May 17th which was held on the
Turf.

Parading this horse throughout the world to demonstrate how stupid these
owners are, and place the horse at risk benchmarks their interest in
raking in $$ rather than doing right for the horse.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Sherman resign as trainer, unless he is as stupid as these owners.

How is the horse at risk doing what it was born to do?

[ArlJim78]

When Chrome went on his streak last year he was racing and working out frequently, and was coming off a series of sprints. His winning move was an acceleration coming off the turn where he would put 5 lengths on the field then coast home.

Since he came back from the break he has not had that acceleration. All he has is his cruising speed but he's one paced. He doesn't have that winning burst.
I don't think this is Victors fault.
He's working out and racing less with little emphasis on speed and it shows when he races.
That's my two cents.

[burnsy]

When Chrome went on his streak last year he was racing and working out frequently, and was coming off a series of sprints. His winning move was an acceleration coming off the turn where he would put 5 lengths on the field then coast home.

Since he came back from the break he has not had that acceleration. All he has is his cruising speed but he's one paced. He doesn't have that winning burst.
I don't think this is Victors fault.
He's working out and racing less with little emphasis on speed and it shows when he races.
That's my two cents.

I've been saying that for a while. That horse needs to race. He is best when he runs up to the big races. People love excuses and the jock is the "classic" blame game. Your "two cents" is probably worth a million because the best that horse did was when he was campaigning.

[nearco]

You guys pointing out run ups...
Here's the rub..
These tracks in SW Asia and Europe have 4-5 day meets. Which means wear and tear on the racing surfaces is limited.
Over here in North American there are 4-6 week meetings and some lasting a good part of the year.
With that kind of pounding and of course with the majority of the races being 5.5 or 6f, placing the gate in the same spot so that the distance is always correct would place a tremendous amount of stress on the area where the gate is placed.
This is especially true with turf racing. Consider all or most of the non sprint turf races at 8 or 8.5f....Look at the condition of the GS turf course. It looks terrible. And that despite the 140 ft wide racing surface and the various available rail configurations. Imagine the condition of the turf is the gate placement was the same for every race at a particular distance.

The meets in HK are not 4-5 day meets.

[goatchaser]

Why do they have to be stupid owners? There running this horse after winning 2 legs of the Triple Crown. We use to call the people who retired their horse after a 3 YO campaign idiots for not racing in their 4's. Yes...The owner embarrassed himself on national TV. I do believe he learned his lesson. But even now it's hard to forget what he did and said. But just calling them Stupid is so wrong.
The horse has run creditable and lost to a better horse on this day in an environment completely different than what he's use to. Race before he lost to a horse that's probably the Fav to win the Breeeder's cup and has only lost once in his career and beat a field next time out by what? a dozen lengths under a hand ride?

[johnhannibalsmith]

...People love excuses and the jock is the "classic" blame game...

The problem for me is that if I'm supposed to dismiss being a third of the way into the track demanding everyone run up your inside as "the way he runs best" and that things are going according to plan...

... then just basically allowing the only outside horse inside the 3/8 to get first run on you while you are dicking around waiting waiting waiting, pretty much makes the whole riding to avoid outside pressure for the first eight furlongs a bit of a waste of time.

But, usually when you see these limp rides where the rider is worried more about other horses than his own you can trace the problem back to the people giving ridiculous instructions to the rider and making his job nearly impossible to do with confidence.

[SandyW]

Jockey instructions should be, you ride, I'll train !!

[lamboguy]

how about fire the owner's, they have no clue about horse racing are about to turn one of the best horse racing stories of all time into one of the worst by going to England, and the trainer is no better if he is going along with this.

[NY BRED]

[QUOTE=Some_One]How is the horse at risk doing what it was born to do


A: when you are all in for about 15k on breeding and expenses and then are incredibly
lucky to win the First two legs of the Triple Crown, and then lose
the Belmont, you have two choices. Retiring the horse as a stallion
would make sense, but, the owners obviously want this horse to
prove he is a champion, and I respect them for this choice.

That said, this horse endured a tough campaign, and shipping to Dubai
was insane. Quite simply, if the purse was for 250,000 do you
believe these owners would have shipped, even when the Saudis pay for the trip??

Now, they are seriously considering going to the Ascot, so the horse
can get trounced again?

Further, do trainers like Pletcher, Shug, Hollendorfer , Mott go to
Dubai with their First or even second stringers?

Horses ARE meant to run, but trainers are responsible for providing
professional advice and spotting their horses in the right spot.

I encourage any trainers or owners for their thought on this
specific discussion.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...so the horse
can get trounced again?

...

I'm not the colt's biggest fan, but this seems like some pretty severe hyperbole considering his only really poor effort was at Philstonerx Casino off that little rest following the Belmont.

[Rex Phinney]

I'm not the colt's biggest fan, but this seems like some pretty severe hyperbole considering his only really poor effort was at Philstonerx Casino off that little rest following the Belmont.

He hasn't won a meaningful race in 10 months.

He got beat in Pennsylvania because the owners brought him back in a horrible spot, then the same thing in the San Antonio. Now they will sit him close to three months and bring him back in an impossible spot again. It's clear they don't understand how to manage a horse. And it seems to me after the TC they stopped listening to the professionals.

[johnhannibalsmith]

He hasn't won a meaningful race in 10 months.

...

That really doesn't sound like the definition of trounce.

[SG4]

Why is it that when international horses go around the world to race they're respected as globetrotters, but California Chrome makes the Dubai trip & considers Ascot & now his connections are considered idiots & doing wrong by the horse? If you had a once in a lifetime horse why not take advantage by doing once in a lifetime things? He was hardly embarrassed yesterday, and he'd be up against it at Ascot but isn't it exciting to at least consider such a sporting venture? These are the types of things I dream about doing if I was a small time owner with a big time horse.

[letswastemoney]

I guess Lea was destroyed if California Chrome was "trounced" in Dubai.

What exactly does he need to do to earn respect anyway, go on a super winning streak like Zenyatta? Horses win and horses lose.

To think a horse that just ran second in Dubai didn't belong in that race is quite possibly the dumbest logic I've ever heard.

[NY BRED]

according to TVG Mr. Sherman was unaware of the plans to
go to Ascot, so these jerks feel they are better trainers than
Art.

You all saw Steve Coburn after the Belmont, now you determine
how f*&%ng stupid and greedy these people are.


Hope this horse survives this journey,wondering what Vegas would give as Odds that Art Sherman continues as trainer.

Talk about humilating the horse, now look at the payback for the trainer.

Morale: No good deeds go unpunished.

[breezing]

nevermind.

[nearco]

according to TVG Mr. Sherman was unaware of the plans to
go to Ascot, so these jerks feel they are better trainers than
Art.

You all saw Steve Coburn after the Belmont, now you determine
how f*&%ng stupid and greedy these people are.


Hope this horse survives this journey,wondering what Vegas would give as Odds that Art Sherman continues as trainer.

Talk about humilating the horse, now look at the payback for the trainer.

Morale: No good deeds go unpunished.

That's apparently not true. The decison to go to Ascot was made before the DWC and the reason the particular trainer with whom he will be stabled with in England was picked is because his right hand man used to work for Art Sherman.

[Appy]

Regardless of where Chrome is racing, would Espinoza be the guy you would have riding him?

[Relwob Owner]

That's apparently not true. The decison to go to Ascot was made before the DWC and the reason the particular trainer with whom he will be stabled with in England was picked is because his right hand man used to work for Art Sherman.


This article seems to it is true he didn't know, unless Im missing something in it.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/90973/sherman-ascot-could-be-rough-on-chrome

[nearco]

This article seems to it is true he didn't know, unless Im missing something in it.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/90973/sherman-ascot-could-be-rough-on-chrome


http://www.thenational.ae/sport/horse-racing/from-dubai-world-cup-to-royal-ascot-california-chrome-set-to-be-shipped-to-newmarket

Perry Martin, who bred and owns California Chrome in conjunction with Steve Coburn, made the decision in midweek although it was clearly contingent on the chestnut colt running well in the World Cup.

Guest’s stable was chosen because Chris Mills, the owner of Mirza, has a son, Robert, who works as an apprentice with Guest. A few years ago Robert Mills worked in California with Art Sherman, and as he was riding Mirza in morning trackwork at Meydan, the link was re-established.

The Shermans will return to America and assistant trainer Alan Sherman intends to act as the vanguard in early May, when he will fly to England to apply the finishing touches should California Chrome run at Newbury.

After California Chrome’s run at Meydan, Sherman Snr revealed that he intended to give his stable flag-bearer a rest, stating that the four year old was going to be a tired horse after two runs already this season.

“They won’t do much with him for around ten days,” Sherman Jnr said. “We’ll let Rae tinker with him for a bit until he is bucking and kicking again, and then get back into training. We don’t have a Kentucky Derby horse this year so going to England in early May for me should not be a problem.”

Hard to believe Sherman didn't know, seeing as somebody who worked for him was the link between the two trainers. Also sounds like they have it all figured out about how the horse will be trained and Sherman's son going over in May to spearhead things. Doubt all that got arranged without Sherman's knowledge.

[lamboguy]

i highly doubt that a 77 year old trainer that has been around horses his whole life would have anything to do with with making a dumb move like this one.

[DelMarJay]

Isn't this board for intelligent debate and analysis?

Man, this horse aint Seattle Slew. Chrome has a very limited ability to make CASH in the breeding shed, at least for a few years(and then only if he could produce some solid stakes runners).

He made over 2 mil. including appearance fees on this 1 trip! He was running on a brand new track in a DESERT AT NIGHT and ran better than
many of us had expected.

Shouldn't have been 4/5 with above stated factors, but don't blame the horse for a bad bet. I'm also not getting the vitriol over the
trainer/training, workouts, jockey/ride(s) and down home owners. Again, this aint FREAKING SEATTLE SLEW! The connections have been shot down from day one and continue to be attacked(yes, admittedly they've had some PR problems).

Easy in hindsight to complain about everything regarding Chrome's handling, but excuse me for not seeing it. MINT has been made, rides have not been "BAD" by jock standards, and who the hell knows how a particular horse should be worked unless you're in the shed working with Chrome every day.

I say here's(champagne clink) to a very good horse who has made a fortune and has a great fandom who need to realize it's not F'ng SEATTLE SLEW!!
Now I'll take the arrows and slings. :mad:

[classhandicapper]

1. If Chrome still doesn't want to run between or inside horses, I consider that a failing of some sort on either the horse's part or the trainer's part. It's been long enough to overcome that issue (if there really is one).

2. If the horse can get comfortable in other spots, then having him 4 wide first turn when the pace was lively was a bad ride given that this horse has tractable speed and could easily have backed off. It sounded to me like Sherman was not pleased with the ride.

I had no bet on the race, but while I was watching it with a friend, I was yelling at the TV he had NO CHANCE while they were still going into the first turn. That's an almost impossible trip unless the outside part of the track is playing better (which was tough to tell off such a limited sample of races), they are absolutely walking on the lead (which they weren't), or you are TONS the best horse (which he was not).

IMO, he ran a big race.

Forget about the winner for a minute because it's tougher to get a really good line on him. CC beat Lea, who we know is a very solid Grade 1 racehorse, despite the tougher trip. And based on the rest of the result, it looks like Lea ran his race.

This is the only horse that can run 2nd in the Dubai World Cup despite a rough trip, earn 2 million dollars, and somehow still be controversial because he isn't an all time great.

[castaway01]

Isn't this board for intelligent debate and analysis?

Man, this horse aint Seattle Slew. Chrome has a very limited ability to make CASH in the breeding shed, at least for a few years(and then only if he could produce some solid stakes runners).

He made over 2 mil. including appearance fees on this 1 trip! He was running on a brand new track in a DESERT AT NIGHT and ran better than
many of us had expected.

Shouldn't have been 4/5 with above stated factors, but don't blame the horse for a bad bet. I'm also not getting the vitriol over the
trainer/training, workouts, jockey/ride(s) and down home owners. Again, this aint FREAKING SEATTLE SLEW! The connections have been shot down from day one and continue to be attacked(yes, admittedly they've had some PR problems).

Easy in hindsight to complain about everything regarding Chrome's handling, but excuse me for not seeing it. MINT has been made, rides have not been "BAD" by jock standards, and who the hell knows how a particular horse should be worked unless you're in the shed working with Chrome every day.

I say here's(champagne clink) to a very good horse who has made a fortune and has a great fandom who need to realize it's not F'ng SEATTLE SLEW!!
Now I'll take the arrows and slings. :mad:

So let me get this straight---you think we all feel California Chrome is as good as bleepin' Seattle Slew, but you're smart enough to know better? I'm not sure you mentioned that enough times for us to follow your "intelligent" discussion.

Yeah, breeding 100 to 150 times a season at $10,000 a pop, they can't make any money that way...

[Tom]

How is the horse at risk doing what it was born to do?

Yes, and doing it while finishing second in the richest race in the world.
Wish I was that stupid!

No comments required.......:lol:

[Tom]

Further, do trainers like Pletcher, Shug, Hollendorfer , Mott go to
Dubai with their First or even second stringers?

Mott was there Saturday.
With his BC winner Main Sequence.
Got his arse handed to him.

[Relwob Owner]

http://www.thenational.ae/sport/horse-racing/from-dubai-world-cup-to-royal-ascot-california-chrome-set-to-be-shipped-to-newmarket



Hard to believe Sherman didn't know, seeing as somebody who worked for him was the link between the two trainers. Also sounds like they have it all figured out about how the horse will be trained and Sherman's son going over in May to spearhead things. Doubt all that got arranged without Sherman's knowledge.

It says in that article that he said he didn't know and hard for me to believe he would say he didn't when he did. Given what I have seen and heard from his owners, not hard for me to believe they did all of the planning and didn't tell Sherman til after the race.

[ArlJim78]

Mott was there Saturday.
With his BC winner Main Sequence.
Got his arse handed to him.
FYI, Graham Motion trains Main Sequence, not Mott.

[Tom]

:blush: Oooops. Still groogy from all the flue medicines.
Who did Mott have there? I was sure he was over there....then agian, been in bed for about 9 days.

[ArlJim78]

:blush: Oooops. Still groogy from all the flue medicines.
Who did Mott have there? I was sure he was over there....then agian, been in bed for about 9 days.
Yes Mott did have Lea in the World Cup.

[SandyLoam]

[QUOTE=classhandicapper]1. If Chrome still doesn't want to run between or inside horses, I consider that a failing of some sort on either the horse's part or the trainer's part. It's been long enough to overcome that issue (if there really is one).

As the three were coming down the stretch, 'Chrome in the middle, he looked around him, looked to the right and felt some "anxiety" at the 300-meter mark. I swear he hesitated, which helped him lose the race. If 'Chrome always needs a perfect ride where the others must defer to him in order to win, then he's not much of a "professional" racehorse, right?

And I think Coburn et al were perfectly content for a slice of the huge purse, not going for the win. He basically admitted they mis-trained him, vis a vis the win.

[nads1420]

I wouldn't be shocked to see Sherman resign as trainer, unless he is as stupid as these owners.


Thats not fair to say. I feel bad for Art. He says he feels like he lost a friend. This horse has made all of his life long career dreams come true. He should and will ride it out until the end.

Art Sherman is an easy man to root for. Just a good guy.

[nijinski]

Regardless of where Chrome is racing, would Espinoza be the guy you would have riding him?


Espinoza won for Ward at Ascot with Hootenanny , so maybe they will consider keeping him .