A streak for the ages broken today

[Elliott Sidewater]

No, we're not talking about Frank Passero's 14 in a row at Gulfstream.
The big news is at Parx, where trainer Brenda Wilson broke a five year losing streak during which she sent approximately 150 consecutive losers to post. She won the second race with a 5 year old maiden at odds of 15-1 in a six horse field. Brenda Wilson is the wife of retired jockey Leroy Moyers. In my opinion, the mammoth losing streak was mainly attributable to not upgrading her stock when the slots came to Pennsylvania and Philadelphia Park turning into a racino.

Before the slots, Ms Wilson was a career 6 percent trainer, after slots, 1.4%.

Congratulations are in order for Brenda Wilson, she must feel like Mt Rushmore was lifted off of her shoulders today. Racing can be a cruel game, but today, maybe, not so much as usual.

[098poi]

Nice of you to acknowledge her!

[Stillriledup]

Just goes to show you that nothing is promised....you have to appreciate those wins, whether you're a bettor, owner, trainer or jock.

Congrats to her!

[Grits]

Many. So very many would've walked away, giving up. Powerful woman to stay, to keep doing what she loved, every day. Happy for her.

[Stillriledup]

Many. So very many would've walked away, giving up. Powerful woman to stay, to keep doing what she loved, every day. Happy for her.

Horses essentially don't know they won, but they do know if they're loved and taken care of the right way, even if they're slow, so you get up in the morning for them and their welfare if you care enough. We don't know the ins and outs of this woman and her story, but there's no doubt you're right about the passion and desire to keep fighting the good fight despite the lack of wins. This is a great day for small barns, as long as you have hope, that's where it begins and ends.

[DeltaLover]

Powerful woman to stay, to keep doing what she loved, every day.


The way you put it, it seems like a very expensive hobby for her :confused: :confused:

IMHO this kind of horsemen and horsewomen do not belong to the game,,

[Elliott Sidewater]

Delta, your poem in the address field reminds me of a similar one I heard a long time ago:

It's easy to grin when your ship comes in
Life's joys never seem to diminish
But the man worthwhile is the one who can smile
After losing a close photo finish

[DeltaLover]

But he man worthwhile is he one who can smile
After losing a close photo finish

I am definitely do not belong in this group of men :p :p

[Grits]

The way you put it, it seems like a very expensive hobbit for her :confused: :confused:

If you're meaning hobby? No, absolutely not. I have no idea how you gleaned this out of my response to ESide's post. Anyone who can lose for 5 years is powerful and determined. I like anyone who doesn't give up. Brenda Wilson included. ..... And they don't belong in the game? Wow.

SRU, I agree with you, 100%

[DeltaLover]

If you're meaning hobby? No, absolutely not. I have no idea how you gleaned this out of my response to ESide's post. Anyone who can lose for 5 years is powerful and determined. I like anyone who doesn't give up. Brenda Wilson included. ..... And they don't belong in the game? Wow.

SRU, I agree with you, 100%

Please forgive me, but I really cannot understand how anyone can go five years without a win and still not consider horse training an expensive hobby... 1% trainers should better find something else to do, they are bad for all the parties involved (including horses, owners, bettors and anyone else)

[GameTheory]

Anyone who can lose for 5 years is powerful and determined. I like anyone who doesn't give up. Brenda Wilson included. ..... And they don't belong in the game? Wow. Well... we don't know if she was fighting/struggling or she didn't care. Certainly there have always been low-level trainers that do NOT want to win (but they do want cash SOME checks for maybe coming in third or whatever), they don't want their horses claimed, they don't want to be forced into higher conditions, etc.

They just want their stall space and they basically live there and they get to take care of their "pets". Some of these people own their own horses, others may be effectively fleecing their owners for the day rate (owners who do really want to win some races). I don't know whether that's the case here, making no accusations, but there is an argument to be made that the game isn't well-served by those types of operations. (You could probably make a counter-argument as well.)

I remember we were discussing a while back some rule at Mountaineer about how a horse or trainer (I forget) had to at do such-and-such every X time period (be in-the-money, something like that) or they would lose their stalls. And so when one of these type of operators that wasn't really into winning would run up against losing their space suddenly their horse would run a great race out of the blue when they had been doing nothing but running in a circle without effort since the last time they almost were kicked out.

Any assumptions we make about a losing record and what that person's feelings and motivations are just pure speculation. They could be fighting as hard as they can or they could be purposely tanking. Neither is unlikely. It would look the same from the outside either way, at least without a detailed analysis. (Because patterns such as at Mountaineer are not hard to spot once you know what you are looking for.)

[horses4courses]

Please forgive me, but I really cannot understand how anyone can go five years without a win and still not consider horse training an expensive hobby... 1% trainers should better find something else to do, they are bad for all the parties involved (including horses, owners, bettors and anyone else)

I disagree.

If her horses are well cared for, what does it matter?
Like SRU said, the horses don't know if they have won, or not.

Owners? She very likely owns her own stock, and has had to
withstand the drought herself financially. If not, she has some
very loyal, perhaps naive, patrons who have been on a long ride.
Either way, any owners she might still have could have sent their
horses elsewhere a long time ago.

Bettors? The stats are there for all to see in the PPs.
Ignoring anything a 1% trainer puts out is easy to do.
Field size is increased - everyone is happy.
Except for yourself, apparently.

30% trainers who have their horses juiced to the gills
are killing this sport. Most win those 3 out of 10 races
with horses that go off at 6-5, or less. No good for me,
or for many bettors.

There is still plenty of room for 1% trainers in this game, imo.
They always have a shot of improving things and, if they don't,
necessity will force them into something else.

[Milkshaker]

Brenda Wilson is the wife of retired jockey Leroy Moyers.

Wow, a Leroy Moyers reference.

His heyday was in the 1960s.

Last I recall he was suspended an entire year in the 1980s for failure to extend his best effort on a 50-1 shot.

[ReplayRandall]

A little point of perspective from a Hall-of-Fame trainer's record in 2013:

Jack Van Berg- Trainer of Alysheba

Year-Starts-Wins-2nd-3rd--Earnings
2013- 121--- 1--- 9--- 11-- $140,690

[Valuist]

I'd like to find out the numbers on a guy named William Davis who used to train in Chicago in the 90s. I think there's another William Davis who may be at Mnr or in that area. This was a different guy. It was a miracle when he'd run 4th. His horses were hardly ever below 30-1. Many times well over 100-1.

[Grits]

R2, you simply aced this one! :ThmbUp:

And GTh, thank you, you're right, we don't know her exact situation. I have, like each of you, the understanding she could of had ITM finishes, etc. etc. Just getting by.

[castaway01]

I'd like to find out the numbers on a guy named William Davis who used to train in Chicago in the 90s. I think there's another William Davis who may be at Mnr or in that area. This was a different guy. It was a miracle when he'd run 4th. His horses were hardly ever below 30-1. Many times well over 100-1.

William F. Davis perhaps? According to Equibase, from 1990 to 1996 he won 7 out of 186 races.

[Maximillion]

I'd like to find out the numbers on a guy named William Davis who used to train in Chicago in the 90s. I think there's another William Davis who may be at Mnr or in that area. This was a different guy. It was a miracle when he'd run 4th. His horses were hardly ever below 30-1. Many times well over 100-1.

if i remember right he was a doctor......once in a blue moon one of his horses would finish 4th... which brings to mind that Mnr thread that Game Theory mentioned earlier.

[Maximillion]

William F. Davis perhaps? According to Equibase, from 1990 to 1996 he won 7 out of 186 races.

I dont think thats him.He may not have ever won a race...he would lose by double digits, then raise the horse in class,lose badly again and then follow that up with another rise in class.
Funny how you remember certain things....i can remember laughing about his entries with my circle of friends at the time.

[appistappis]

why do these 0 for trainers always pop up to cost me a nice exactor.

[whodoyoulike]

If this is the same Brenda Wilson, her training record from Equibase website. I would think she earned a living from other sources besides training horses.

http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=People&searchType=T&eID=3040

[dilanesp]

If you're meaning hobby? No, absolutely not. I have no idea how you gleaned this out of my response to ESide's post. Anyone who can lose for 5 years is powerful and determined. I like anyone who doesn't give up. Brenda Wilson included. ..... And they don't belong in the game? Wow.

SRU, I agree with you, 100%

I know it isn't the same thing, but anyone else remember Steve Cauthen's downswing in early 1979, coming off the Triple Crown? There's a ton of variance in horse racing. Nobody should ever assume that relatively small samples of statistics are conclusive proof of things.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Wow, a Leroy Moyers reference.

His heyday was in the 1960s.

Last I recall he was suspended an entire year in the 1980s for failure to extend his best effort on a 50-1 shot.

Wow. That's a nominee for the tough beat thread.

No, wait. What about being married to a trainer that's 1 for 150 over five years? :confused:

I don't know about "streak for the ages" though. Didn't one of the books by Beyer or Davidowitz indicate something like 20 percent of trainers fail to win a single race every season?

[biggestal99]

The way you put it, it seems like a very expensive hobby for her :confused: :confused:

IMHO this kind of horsemen and horsewomen do not belong to the game,,

Well racing has room for all, i myself am gonna run a one horse stable when i retire from my corp job.

I bet an o for 2014-15 trainer recently atTampa msw 17-1,fts, hell the horse hasnt been tainted by losing yet. Good pedigree for distance/surface. Jiggy jogs, bet the trainer thinks he has got a stakes winner onhis hands and puts him over his head next out. Thats the way it is with a bad trainer.

Allan

[tophatmert]

William F. Davis perhaps? According to Equibase, from 1990 to 1996 he won 7 out of 186 races.
I think he was a dentist. I would have guessed 3 or 4 wins. He had a horse named Khafji who always encountered some trouble and always seemed bettable at long odds and always encountered trouble when you bet him and so on and so on.

[DeltaLover]

Most of you disagree with me, but in my opinion, horse racing is a professional sport that depends on betting to survive thus it should try to eliminate the less capable professionals and horses and reward the most capable.

This does not mean that I favour super trainers or super owners.

Hell no...

I think that there should be a balance in the number of horses a trainer has in train and they way the perform as well..

For example I would like to see a rule restricting the size of a trainer's stable to X number of horses and Y of colts (like in Japan for example) and also to force any horse who fails to run a good race for a specific period, to a mandatory layoff or even in some cases retirement..

[Grits]

Most of you disagree with me, but in my opinion, horse racing is a professional sport that depends on betting to survive thus it should try to eliminate the less capable professionals and horses and reward the most capable.

Do you hold the same opinion about the stock market? It, too, calls for trust in the best professionals with one's investments. Of those professionals, some, of course, are better than others.

[mountainman]

Do you hold the same opinion about the stock market? It, too, calls for trust in the best professionals with one's investments. Of those professionals, some, of course, are better than others.

You know I love your humanistic approach and direct style. But just for fun, I'll toss in a different perspective here: The hardships some trainers will endure to avoid 9-5 civilian work sometimes astonish me.

[thaskalos]

Most of you disagree with me, but in my opinion, horse racing is a professional sport that depends on betting to survive thus it should try to eliminate the less capable professionals and horses and reward the most capable.

This does not mean that I favour super trainers or super owners.

Hell no...

I think that there should be a balance in the number of horses a trainer has in train and they way the perform as well..

For example I would like to see a rule restricting the size of a trainer's stable to X number of horses and Y of colts (like in Japan for example) and also to force any horse who fails to run a good race for a specific period, to a mandatory layoff or even in some cases retirement..

Let's say that I am an independently wealthy person with a love for horse racing (oxymoron, I know :) )...and I want to retire from the "straight world" and train my own two-horse stable. I love my two horses, and wouldn't even think of medicating them in any way...nor do I care much if they never win a race. They are my "pets"...and my joy comes exclusively from caring for them...and watching them run in a group.

There should be no spot for me in this sport?

[Milkshaker]

horse racing is a professional sport...thus it should try to eliminate the less capable professionals and horses and reward the most capable.

I have a news flash for you: The "professional" stables (and bettors) at the top of the totem pole REQUIRE the presence of less-capable participants for the profit equation to work. A top trainer doesn't make money by seeking out other top outfits to race against. Profitable whale bettors feast on the minnows--they don't nibble on other whales.

[DeltaLover]

Let's say that I am an independently wealthy person with a love for horse racing (oxymoron, I know :) )...and I want to retire from the "straight world" and train my own two-horse stable. I love my two horses, and wouldn't even think of medicating them in any way...nor do I care much if they never win a race. They are my "pets"...and my joy comes exclusively from caring for them...and watching them run in a group.

There should be no spot for me in this sport?


In this case you should definitely be allows to run your two horses, but if you fail to deliver within a reasonable time and number of races, you should be given some mandatory time off, giving chance to better trainers and horses to run while you will work out on improving your skills and stock..

[DeltaLover]

I have a news flash for you: The "professional" stables (and bettors) at the top of the totem pole REQUIRE the presence of less-capable participants for the profit equation to work. A top trainer doesn't make money by seeking out other top outfits to race against. Profitable whale bettors feast on the minnows--they don't nibble on other whales.

Given the examples of Japan and Hong Kong I have to disagree with what you are saying here..

[thaskalos]

Profitable whale bettors feast on the minnows--they don't nibble on other whales.
What will the whales do when there aren't enough minnows around to satisfy their hunger?

[DeltaLover]

Do you hold the same opinion about the stock market? It, too, calls for trust in the best professionals with one's investments. Of those professionals, some, of course, are better than others.

I can assure you, that when it comes to the Stock Market, the weaker traders quickly disappear and been replaced by younger and more promising professionals..

Of course, some of them are better (or simply got luckier!) than the others but there are always some thresholds that drive the weaker traders to other kinds of occupation...

[thaskalos]

In this case you should definitely be allows to run your two horses, but if you fail to deliver within a reasonable time and number of races, you should be given some mandatory time off, giving chance to better trainers and horses to run while you will work out on improving your skills and stock..
I don't agree with you here, DL. We have an obvious shortage of horses nationwide...and yet, you are accusing me of preventing "better trainers" from running their horses.

Aren't the slaughterhouses a big enough disgrace for this sport? Now you are suggesting that underperforming horses be forced into an early "retirement"? What do you suppose will be their final destination?

[mountainman]

Spot on , Milk. I blogged on this at length in an entry entitled 'Superman Never Scratches.'

[DeltaLover]

I don't agree with you here, DL. We have an obvious shortage of horses nationwide...and yet, you are accusing me of preventing "better trainers" from running their horses.

What you detect as obvious shortage of horses nationwide, I simply call too much racing

What we need is much less racing which still will be much higher quality... As an example, see Hong Kong or Japan...

[thaskalos]

What you detect as obvious shortage of horses nationwide, I simply call too much racing

What we need is much less racing which still will be much higher quality... As an example, see Hong Kong or Japan...
"Too much racing"?? Don't the horses run less today than they've ever run before? Don't we both remember the times when a 15-day "layoff" was looked upon with skepticism?

Yes...judging by the number of horses that we have running today, we have too many tracks going. But the problem, as I see it, is that those tracks that we would all agree need to be shut down in order to boost the "quality" of the sport, are the exact same tracks that, because of thriving casino businesses, are some of the most financially sound tracks to be found anywhere. Arlington Park and Aqueduct are facing extinction...while Penn National and Parx are thriving.

Is this the sort of racetrack constriction that we want to see?

[mountainman]

What you detect as obvious shortage of horses nationwide, I simply call too much racing

What we need is much less racing which still will be much higher quality... As an example, see Hong Kong or Japan...

Take foreign- bred horses away from the orient and see what happens.

[DeltaLover]

"Too much racing"?? Don't the horses run less today than they've ever run before? Don't we both remember the times when a 15-day "layoff" was looked upon with skepticism?

Yes...judging by the number of horses that we have running today, we have too many tracks going. But the problem, as I see it, is that those tracks that we would all agree need to be shut down in order to boost the "quality" of the sport, are the exact same tracks that, because of thriving casino businesses, are some of the most financially sound tracks to be found anywhere. Arlington Park and Aqueduct are facing extinction...while Penn National and Parx are thriving.

Is this the sort of racetrack constriction that we want to see?

Too much racing translates to too many circuits running simultaneously, something that has as immediate consequence the decrease in the racing quality, small pools, not optimal control and regulation, deprivation of the betting $$ etc...

[DeltaLover]

Take foreign- bred horses away from the orient and see what happens.

I think that in Hong Kong, all the horses running there are foreign breds... More than this, what is the point you are trying to make here? Why should I care about where the horse was bred? I really do not understand...

[mountainman]

I think that in Hong Kong, all the horses running there are foreign breds... More than this, what is the point you are trying to make here? Why should I care about where the horse was bred? I really do not understand...

Without widespread (as in a wide array of tracks to compete at) incentive, the breeding industry shrinks, even atrophies. Massive contraction is not the panacea it's touted as. Think it through as relates to the orient.

[thaskalos]

Too much racing translates to too many circuits running simultaneously, something that has as immediate consequence the decrease in the racing quality, small pools, not optimal control and regulation, deprivation of the betting $$ etc...
Complaints about the many circuits running simultaneously are like the complaints about the high takeout; they both fall on deaf ears. As long as there is no unified, controlling voice in this game...there can be no hope of any drastic, customer-friendly changes. The minor tracks are here to stay...and anyone who doesn't see that is dreaming -- like that guy in your picture who was dreaming of whales. :)

[DeltaLover]

Without widespread (as in a wide array of tracks to compete at) incentive, the breeding industry shrinks, even atrophies. Massive contraction is not the panacea it's touted as. Think it through as relates to the orient.


This is a theory that I do not believe as it is not based in any scientific evidence..

Take as an example the products of Frederico Tessio, who was able to create the modern thoroughbred out of a very limited and cheap stock of sires and dams.. The crop of 1917 although it was close to the one tenth of the crop of 2015, produced Man O War, in the same way FT produced Neacho and Ribot from very few matings...

[DeltaLover]

Complaints about the many circuits running simultaneously are like the complaints about the high takeout; they both fall on deaf ears. As long as there is no unified, controlling voice in this game...there can be no hope of any drastic, customer-friendly changes. The minor tracks are here to stay...and anyone who doesn't see that is dreaming -- like that guy in your picture who was dreaming of whales. :)

OK, but this does not alter the view that horse racing does not need a 1% trainers or crippled horses who cannot run and stay in training simply for the shake of a hobby!

[thaskalos]

OK, but this does not alter the view that horse racing does not need a 1% trainers or crippled horses who cannot run and stay in training simply for the shake of a hobby!
And I say that, if you take the "incompetent" trainers and the underachieving horses out of the game...then we will have four-horse fields...instead of the six-horse fields that we have today.

[mountainman]

This is a theory that I do not believe as it is not based in any scientific evidence..

Take as an example the products of Frederico Tessio, who was able to create the modern thoroughbred out of a very limited and cheap stock of sires and dams.. The crop of 1917 although it was close to the one tenth of the crop of 2015, produced Man O War, in the same way FT produced Neacho and Ribot from very few matings...

Got news for ya: Freddy boy ain't walkin' through that door. And your vaunted breeding era also produced plenty of 'Hoodwinks' for the big horse to kick around.

[DeltaLover]

And I say that, if you take the "incompetent" trainers and the underachieving horses out of the game...then we will have four-horse fields...instead of the six-horse fields that we have today.

Not if you get rid of the second and third level circuits.. Why we need to have so many race tracks running simultaneously? The only one who benefits from it is the low quality professionals and nobody else, all of them are making a living out of the betting dollar, returning to very low quality racing, small pools, high take outs and reliance to casino's for survival..

[DeltaLover]

Got news for ya: Freddy boy ain't walkin' through that door. And your vaunted breeding era also produced plenty of 'Hoodwinks' for the big horse to kick around.

I don't understand what you are trying to say... I know one thing for sure though, less racing is clearly bad both for racing as a sport and for me as a bettor.. It is good only for those who are making a living working as professionals in Mickey Mouse circuits, where you can destroy the win pool by simply placing a five hundred bet to the third favourite.

[Grits]

You know I love your humanistic approach and direct style. But just for fun, I'll toss in a different perspective here: The hardships some trainers will endure to avoid 9-5 civilian work sometimes astonish me.

"Double M", you made me laugh. Thank you. :lol:

I can assure you, that when it comes to the Stock Market, the weaker traders quickly disappear and been replaced by younger and more promising professionals..

And DL, let me assure you of something. I, not only have an understanding of stock market professionals, I've had the same one for decades. And I wouldn't trade him up for some upstart if hell froze over. :rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

Not if you get rid of the second and third level circuits.. Why we need to have so many race tracks running simultaneously? The only one who benefits from it is the low quality professionals and nobody else, all of them are making a living out of the betting dollar, returning to very low quality racing, small pools, high take outs and reliance to casino's for survival..
For me...the best thing would be two tracks a day, with gigantic mutuel pools. If this were the case, then I would make a better living...and I would also be a better dad to my son. But it isn't going to happen...and, do you know why?

Because the game is run with the horsemen in mind...and players like us are less than an afterthought.

[DeltaLover]

For me...the best thing would be two tracks a day, with gigantic mutuel pools. If this were the case, then I would make a better living...and I would also be a better dad to my son. But it isn't going to happen...and, do you know why?

Because the game is run with the horsemen in mind...and players like us are less than an afterthought.

OK, at least now we agree.. The fact that the game is shrinking day in and out and becomes more of a way for the retired to spend their time should ring a bell to those who are running the game and try to apply drastic changes, bringing it up to speed to our era! Two major circuits (East - West), running three times per week, no claiming races, strict ruling and transparency, adequate coverage from the media, big pools, modern betting ways and new betting blood... This is what we need and not 1% trainers and horses who win every other year..

[thaskalos]

OK, at least now we agree.. The fact that the game is shrinking day in and out and becomes more of a way for the retired to spend their time should ring a bell to those who are running the game and try to apply drastic changes, bringing it up to speed to our era! Two major circuits (East - West), running three times per week, no claiming races, strict ruling and transparency, adequate coverage from the media, big pools, modern betting ways and new betting blood... This is what we need and not 1% trainers and horses who win every other year..
Right! :ThmbUp:

Now...if only we could get someone in a position of authority to listen... :)

[DeltaLover]

Right! :ThmbUp:

Now...if only we could get someone in a position of authority to listen... :)

Its up to us

[thaskalos]

Its up to us
Now you hit the nail on the head. It's ALWAYS up to us. But we are even more disjointed than the racing industry is...and thus, we become our own worst enemies. When you lack the conviction to stand up and be counted...then, how can you ask to be taken seriously?

[mountainman]

I don't understand what you are trying to say... I know one thing for sure though, less racing is clearly bad both for racing as a sport and for me as a bettor.. It is good only for those who are making a living working as professionals in Mickey Mouse circuits, where you can destroy the win pool by simply placing a five hundred bet to the third favourite.

Mickey Mouse? Man O' War? Tessio? I need a varsity sweater to debate you.

[DeltaLover]

Mickey Mouse? Man O' War? Tessio? I need a varsity sweater to debate you.

You do not have to debate me.. I think what I mean is very clear and valid...

[Grits]

You do not have to debate me.. I think what I mean is very clear and valid...

DL, you take yourself and your opinions so seriously. Honestly speaking, none of us should.

We are here on this earth for such a small speck of time, and life can turn on us in a blink.

We're better when we can take it more lightly. I bet that 1% trainer is happier with her win yesterday than you are, here, today, arguing whether she and others like her should be able to race their horses. <3

[DeltaLover]

I bet that 1% trainer is happier with her win yesterday than you are, here, today, arguing whether she and others like her should be able to race their horses. <3

I am sure she is and I have absolutely no problem with this.. My statements are not personal but are expressing my ideas about what is wrong with the game as it is conducted today and what needs to be done to improve it... Nothing else.

[Stillriledup]

For me...the best thing would be two tracks a day, with gigantic mutuel pools. If this were the case, then I would make a better living...and I would also be a better dad to my son. But it isn't going to happen...and, do you know why?

Because the game is run with the horsemen in mind...and players like us are less than an afterthought.

Actually, its not run with the horsemen in mind, its run FOR them. Guys like David Jacobson entering 2 horses per race and then deciding the next morning which one he wants to run (or neither) is strictly a game for the horsemen with no regard for the player. Bettors are a necessary evil, this is a horsemen's game, no 2 ways about it.

[Stillriledup]

DL, you take yourself and your opinions so seriously. Honestly speaking, none of us should.

We are here on this earth for such a small speck of time, and life can turn on us in a blink.

We're better when we can take it more lightly. I bet that 1% trainer is happier with her win yesterday than you are, here, today, arguing whether she and others like her should be able to race their horses. <3

I agree. The game needs anyone who wants to participate honestly. Give me the 1 percent trainer any day over the 35 percent cheater any day of the week.

[biggestal99]

Not if you get rid of the second and third level circuits.. Why we need to have so many race tracks running simultaneously? The only one who benefits from it is the low quality professionals and nobody else, all of them are making a living out of the betting dollar, returning to very low quality racing, small pools, high take outs and reliance to casino's for survival..

If we dont have minor circuits where do the big trainers, owners who paid the big bucks
For their horses go to sell their horse who have a case of the slows.

Bred my mare to elusive quality, couldn't make it on the big circuit but fit right into the minors.

If you had your druthers i'd have to eat my entire investment.

I like the way the japanese do it. Major leagues and big purses run by the national gov't

Minors and smaller purses run by local gov'ts

Allan

[castaway01]

I am sure she is and I have absolutely no problem with this.. My statements are not personal but are expressing my ideas about what is wrong with the game as it is conducted today and what needs to be done to improve it... Nothing else.

But you're making a pointless argument because many of these racetracks are separate businesses in the same industry. If you run a struggling restaurant, you don't get to demand that the 40 closest restaurants all shut down so you can thrive. So, yeah, obviously if only two tracks were running their handle would be much higher, but that's a fantasy world. And before you say "Hong Kong", racing there is a government-controlled monopoly set up on totally different rules (the government owns all forms of gambling) than our capitalist society, so it's not feasible here.

[reckless]

Not that this really adds to the conversation, but FWIW, Brenda Wilson and Hall of Famer Bill Mott, were a very hot and heavy item at Parx (then Keystone/Phila Park) in the 1970s. They were actually together for a while and rumor has it that Mott was crazy over her.

Sadly, she tied her bridle to the wrong horse by leaving Mott for Leroy Moyers. C'est le vie, c'est le vie.

She has always been a very nice lady and never really misses a day at the barn. One of her big 'problems' as a trainer is that she babies her horses too, too much. She never trains them hard enough to get fit enough to do their best (and win).

A few years ago Mott did send her some of his own horses from NY to help her win a race or two.

[DeltaLover]

And before you say "Hong Kong", racing there is a government-controlled monopoly set up on totally different rules (the government owns all forms of gambling) than our capitalist society, so it's not feasible here.

How about NFL or NBA ? Why horse racing cannot be organized as a modern sport?

[Ruffian1]

Horses essentially don't know they won, but they do know if they're loved and taken care of the right way, even if they're slow, so you get up in the morning for them and their welfare if you care enough. We don't know the ins and outs of this woman and her story, but there's no doubt you're right about the passion and desire to keep fighting the good fight despite the lack of wins. This is a great day for small barns, as long as you have hope, that's where it begins and ends.

Well, the dumb ones don't . But any truly solid minded race horse absolutely knows when they have won, and those 1 or 2 % that are so competitive that you can't help but admire them, take winning and losing to extremes. Like not eating for 2 days after they lost, and no, it had nothing to do with sore, sick or anything except they were sulking and pissed off. Yes, there are horses like that. Part of the reason I went into the game as I could not believe what I had seen. Positively true. It blew me away.

[Ruffian1]

Wow, a Leroy Moyers reference.

His heyday was in the 1960s.

Last I recall he was suspended an entire year in the 1980s for failure to extend his best effort on a 50-1 shot.

I rode Leroy quite a bit in Md. in the 70's.

Leroy always loved the ladies.

[Ruffian1]

Not that this really adds to the conversation, but FWIW, Brenda Wilson and Hall of Famer Bill Mott, were a very hot and heavy item at Parx (then Keystone/Phila Park) in the 1970s. They were actually together for a while and rumor has it that Mott was crazy over her.

Sadly, she tied her bridle to the wrong horse by leaving Mott for Leroy Moyers. C'est le vie, c'est le vie.

She has always been a very nice lady and never really misses a day at the barn. One of her big 'problems' as a trainer is that she babies her horses too, too much. She never trains them hard enough to get fit enough to do their best (and win).

A few years ago Mott did send her some of his own horses from NY to help her win a race or two.

Is this by any chance the Brenda that was with Butch Lenzini in the 70's?

[whodoyoulike]

Horses essentially don't know they won, but they do know if they're loved and taken care of the right way, even if they're slow, so you get up in the morning for them and their welfare if you care enough. We don't know the ins and outs of this woman and her story, but there's no doubt you're right about the passion and desire to keep fighting the good fight despite the lack of wins. This is a great day for small barns, as long as you have hope, that's where it begins and ends.

Well, the dumb ones don't . But any truly solid minded race horse absolutely knows when they have won, and those 1 or 2 % that are so competitive that you can't help but admire them, take winning and losing to extremes. Like not eating for 2 days after they lost, and no, it had nothing to do with sore, sick or anything except they were sulking and pissed off. Yes, there are horses like that. Part of the reason I went into the game as I could not believe what I had seen. Positively true. It blew me away.


I recall a horse at Hollywood or SA a number of years ago, who tried to reach over during the stretch and take a bite of the horse passing him in the stretch. I can remember his stretched neck and teeth showing as he tried to take a chomp at the other horse. His name had Hollywood something in it. And, he was a very good high class competitive horse. He just didn't want to lose.

Also, I've seen a number of quality horses strut after winning a race. They know what they just did.

[Stillriledup]

Well, the dumb ones don't . But any truly solid minded race horse absolutely knows when they have won, and those 1 or 2 % that are so competitive that you can't help but admire them, take winning and losing to extremes. Like not eating for 2 days after they lost, and no, it had nothing to do with sore, sick or anything except they were sulking and pissed off. Yes, there are horses like that. Part of the reason I went into the game as I could not believe what I had seen. Positively true. It blew me away.

I really respect your opinion, but i'd have to question this, i was reading about dogs recently and how they have a short term memory of about 20 seconds, dogs are far smarter than horses, i can't imagine a horse is in his stall hours after a race and still "brooding" over a loss. It seems far fetched to me.

[affirmedny]

I recall a horse at Hollywood or SA a number of years ago, who tried to reach over during the stretch and take a bite of the horse passing him in the stretch. I can remember his stretched neck and teeth showing as he tried to take a chomp at the other horse. His name had Hollywood something in it. And, he was a very good high class competitive horse. He just didn't want to lose.

Also, I've seen a number of quality horses strut after winning a race. They know what they just did.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/a14c685ab95043026412ebb9639f6583/tumblr_mt6w95vWwX1rfehtgo1_400.jpg

[Stillriledup]

The horse who won the final race ever at Hollywood Park had an incident, i believe, at one point earlier in his career of trying to savage an opponent.

[ReplayRandall]

http://40.media.tumblr.com/a14c685ab95043026412ebb9639f6583/tumblr_mt6w95vWwX1rfehtgo1_400.jpg
Are you by any chance Adam Coglianese?

[whodoyoulike]

Affirmedny,

Do you know this horse's name?

This isn't the incident I'm recalling, because the horse attempting to chomp the other was on the rail and was being passed on his right side and he never made contact. I guess this occurs more often than I thought.

SRU,

The one I'm thinking of occurred a long time ago, way before the closure of HP. I even remember Denman commenting on it.

[affirmedny]

Are you by any chance Adam Coglianese?

no, I got the picture off the net

[affirmedny]

Affirmedny,

Do you know this horse's name?

This isn't the incident I'm recalling, because the horse attempting to chomp the other was on the rail and was being passed on his right side and he never made contact. I guess this occurs more often than I thought.

SRU,

The one I'm thinking of occurred a long time ago, way before the closure of HP. I even remember Denman commenting on it.

the horse on the left is great prospect, the savagee is golden derby, 1980 Tremont stakes Belmont park

[Stillriledup]

Affirmedny,

Do you know this horse's name?

This isn't the incident I'm recalling, because the horse attempting to chomp the other was on the rail and was being passed on his right side and he never made contact. I guess this occurs more often than I thought.

SRU,

The one I'm thinking of occurred a long time ago, way before the closure of HP. I even remember Denman commenting on it.

Part of my brain kinda knows the race in question...give me some more info that you know and maybe that will jog my memory...i wonder if this happened at Del Mar, you think it could have been down there?

[jk3521]

Of course there is the case of Easy Goer vs Sunday Silence in the stretch of the Preakness where it seems that Easy Goer looks to be trying to get to Silence . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48c26AJAXY

[RunDustyRun]

I believe the horse in question at Delmar was a horse named Woodman's Luck back in 2012...the incident is on youtube....as noted above, same horse who won the finale at Hollywood

[Shemp Howard]

I rode Leroy quite a bit in Md. in the 70's.

Leroy always loved the ladies.


Life on the Farm was a 55-1 first-time starter. Daily Racing Form chart caller Lew Zagnit's footnotes neatly summarized the 2-year-filly's race: ''Life on the Farm, racing outside, was trying to advance under stout restraint on the backstretch, continued under stout restraint on the turn then finished well under her own courage in a very useful effort."

[Ruffian1]

I really respect your opinion, but i'd have to question this, i was reading about dogs recently and how they have a short term memory of about 20 seconds, dogs are far smarter than horses, i can't imagine a horse is in his stall hours after a race and still "brooding" over a loss. It seems far fetched to me.

All I can do is tell you what I saw. The horse in question was named Wicked Man. He ran in the early 70's and saw him do what I spoke about at least twice. He also reached over and savaged the horse next to him as they came to the wire at least once. Can't remember if he won and was dq'ed or got beat. Look him up. He was as blood and guts as a horse could be.
And the 1 or 2% I spoke about I would like to correct. I would say it was more like 1% or even less, that take it real personally.
Wicked Man, a chestnut gelding, was exactly the horse I was referring to.

[Ruffian1]

Life on the Farm was a 55-1 first-time starter. Daily Racing Form chart caller Lew Zagnit's footnotes neatly summarized the 2-year-filly's race: ''Life on the Farm, racing outside, was trying to advance under stout restraint on the backstretch, continued under stout restraint on the turn then finished well under her own courage in a very useful effort."

Do you know who the trainer was.

And are you indeed a refugee from Bowie?

It was my favorite track when I bet in high school and when I raced there until it closed.

[Shemp Howard]

Do you know who the trainer was.

And are you indeed a refugee from Bowie?

It was my favorite track when I bet in high school and when I raced there until it closed.

Elizabeth "Wiz" Murdoch. She wasn't much of a trainer.

Used to take the train from NYC when the TRrack In the Pines as the only horse action north of Hialeah.

[whodoyoulike]

Part of my brain kinda knows the race in question...give me some more info that you know and maybe that will jog my memory...i wonder if this happened at Del Mar, you think it could have been down there?

It could have been Dmr., back then I used to follow a lot of Cali races. I just remember the horse's name included Hollywood (something Hollywood or Hollywood something). It was a bizarre sight very unexpected.

[whodoyoulike]

Part of my brain kinda knows the race in question...give me some more info that you know and maybe that will jog my memory...i wonder if this happened at Del Mar, you think it could have been down there?


It could have been Dmr., back then I used to follow a lot of Cali races. I just remember the horse's name included Hollywood (something Hollywood or Hollywood something). It was a bizarre sight very unexpected.


I may have lost my looks over the years but, at least my memory still works (sort of).

Note Hollywood Reporter's comment line!! He didn't want to lose. I thought he was being passed in the stretch but, I guess he wanted to pass the leader.

Anyone capable of finding a Youtube video of this race? It's memorable at least it was for me.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=HOL&raceDate=05/21/1992&cy=USA&rn=8

[reckless]

Is this by any chance the Brenda that was with Butch Lenzini in the 70's?

Ruffian1 ... sorry for the delay; I just saw your post.

I am not sure of that one. Never heard about them being an item but that doesn't mean they weren't. I thought Butchie went straight to Maryland after he had gotten himself in trouble in Rhode Island and I don't recall Brenda racing anywhere else but in the Commonwealth.

I spent some time in Maryland in late 1980s hustling a jock and rode a few for Pop Lenzini, one of the game's great horsemen.

Butchie did have a way with the pretty ladies, for sure. At the time he died he was with the very, very and absolutely beautiful Diane Nelson.

[reckless]

the horse on the left is great prospect, the savagee is golden derby, 1980 Tremont stakes Belmont park

Golden Derby .... sired by Master Derby who won the Preakness.

Great memory that day. I worked for the House and went to the paddock before the race to introduce myself to W.E. (Smiley) Adams, Golden Derby's trainer.

He was an extremely pleasant guy and just before we left the walking ring area he went into his pocket, pulled out two $100 bills, and said to me, 'Were can I go and bet?'

Of course I told him where and then I went in the very opposite direction (into the grandstand area and kept walking; I was afraid people would follow me, which happened lots of times.) and bet all the money I had in my pocket, about $45.

I think Golden Derby paid about $8 and change. Golden Prospect, by Mr. Prospector, might have been odds-on.

Bob Coglianese took the picture and won an Eclipse Award for it.