Deep Throat checks in

[Tom]

My secret informant, Deep Throat, contacted me via our secret decoder rings today-he has been on hiatus from the CIA for the last few months and took the time to do some research I needed on the history of politics. He has dug up the following and it is 100% true and carved in stone:

LIBERALS and CONSERVATIVES:

The division of the human family into its two distinct branches occurred some 10,000 years ago, a few hundred years after the flood. Humans coexisted as members of small bands of nomadic hunter/gatherers.

In the pivotal event of societal evolution, beer was invented. This epochal innovation was both the foundation of modern civilization and the occasion of the great bifurcation of humanity into its two distinct subgroups: Liberals and Conservatives.

Once beer was discovered, it required grain, and that was the beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle or aluminum can had yet been invented, so it was necessary to stick pretty close to the brewery. That's how villages were formed.

Some men spent their days killing animals to barbecue at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of the conservative movement.

Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting, learned how to live off conservatives by showing up for the BBQs every night and doing women's work like sewing, fetching and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the liberal movement. Later, some of the liberals actually became women.

Liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, invention of group therapy and democratic voting to see how to divide the beer and meat that the conservatives provided. Women were not interested in democracy at that time because most of them were still women back then, and the conservatives fed them.

Conservatives are symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.

Modern Liberals like imported beer (they add lime), but most prefer white wine or foreign water in a bottle. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and french food are on liberal menus. Their women have more testosterone than the men. Liberals like deviant sex and want others to like it too. Their first successful city governments were Sodom and Gomorrah.

Most social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, and group therapists are Liberals. Liberals invented the designated hitter rule in baseball because it wasn't "fair" to make the pitcher also bat.

Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat, and still provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumber jacks, construction workers, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, soldiers, athletes, and generally anyone who works productively outside government. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives
who want to work for a living.

Liberals do not produce anything. They like to "govern" the producers and decide what is to be done with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals just stayed in Europe when conservatives were coming to America.

Conservatives have principles, believe in a Creator, and the rule of law. They practice charity and give to the poor, normally through their churches.


When in doubt on an issue, they check both the Bible and the Constitution, which they use as a constant reference in a changing world. They believe in the concept of truth.

Liberals do not have principles, except for their dedication to stealing production of conservatives and undermining principled references such as the Bible and Constitution. They are never in doubt on an issue because they always do whatever is best for them without regard to others. They have no standard of reference. Liberals do not give to charity. They cultivate the poor like a cat cultivates a field of mice. They use the poor as voters and give them a portion of stolen tax money which they vote away from conservatives.

Conservatives believe in self defense, both at home and abroad. They own guns and use them to discourage liberals and other common criminals. They provide guns to the armed forces to discourage foreign liberals and other foreign criminals.

Liberals do not believe in conservative self defense. They disarm conservatives, and then attack them with impunity by liberal armies with guns. King George, Hitler and Stalin were all liberals who abandoned the rule of Law, had no principles except their own self indulgence, and attempted to tax and govern conservatives. Liberals believe in BIG government. They think the United Nations is the ultimate answer.

Conservatives believe in the rule of law and when sitting on juries, convict common criminals and acquit fellow conservatives who have been charged by liberals. When serving in the armed forces, they shoot liberals from other countries who want to govern our country. Conservatives know the difference between a common-sense law and a bone-headed statute passed by some liberal from Massachusetts. When sitting on juries, they do not enforce bone-headed statutes, and don't explain their reasons.

Liberals only believe in whatever laws are appealing to them, such as the privilege of making a living by taxing conservatives. When sitting on juries, liberals convict producers and acquit liberals and other common criminals. Modern Judges are all liberals as they do not produce anything except chaos, and are paid with confiscated tax money. They consider it against the law to reference any source of law such as the Bible or Constitution. Like other liberals, they just make it up as they go and do what is best for them. Judge Roy Bean is their model.

The American cowboy, of course, is your basic, full-bore Conservative. A hundred years ago, an Englishman visiting Texas was attempting to find the owner of a huge cattle ranch. He rode up to one of the ranch hands, and inquired, "Pardon me, but could you perhaps tell me where I might locate your master?" To which the cowboy replied, "That sumbitch ain't been born yet".

So, what'll it be? Wine or Beer? Domestic or Imported?


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."


--Thomas Jefferson

[BIG RED]

Excellent read for a lonely cowboy in Taxachusetts.:D

[Lefty]

Tom, Mighty Fine. I used to drink domestic beer "Coors" now I drink domestic diet cola.
Just Great.

[Suff]

Liberal States pay the tax burden in America. Proven fact.

What detmines the % of a states contributiion to the Federal Govt's budget is the net-net tax dollars it pays.

Its not a secret who pays the bills in America. The data is available many places.

Here's the states in the top ten that the Feds whack the most

Masschusetts
California
New Jersey
New Hampshire


(all Liberal states so far) and continuing

Colorado
Nevada
Illinois
Minnesotta
Deleware
Maryland.




Here's a large group that pay NO... NONE,,,

Meaning the Feds spend more in the state than the states contribute back

Georgia pays no Federal tax
North Carolina pays no federal tax
South carolina pays no Federal tax
Tennesee Pays no Federal Tax
Missispi Pays no Federal tax
Alabama pays no federal tax

I could go on.. but you get the point.

[Suff]

http://www.taxfoundation.org/sr124.pdf


here's the whole report. Now since I pay the bills... as do my fellow democratic states. What I suggest you do... is show us the respect of paying your bills and at least shut your pie hole ..or we'll cut your alllowance,

[Secretariat]

That's a great document Suff. I wonder why Lefty supports Bush when his state Nevada is one that benefits the least from Bush's tax plan in real dollars going to his state.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Secretariat
That's a great document Suff. I wonder why Lefty supports Bush when his state Nevada is one that benefits the least from Bush's tax plan in real dollars going to his state.

I'm wondering what these guys see at ll in this guy and his administration. Whats the passion for a vote for another 4 years with these guys?

What? That they want to put God in the pledge of allegiance?

That they want to stop 2 fags who lived together for 20 years to be able pass the house or pension on like other couples?

Thats your passion for Bush...

The guys tax code is horrible... period
The stock market is down 20% this year
The job market is at best weak
The war plan was bungled
Our foriegn relations are in ruins


Has he united us on any common ground? Anywhere?

Nothing would please me more than a winning war effort
A robust Job Market
A healthy mutual fund market
Declining or at least stablizing health cost

But he's accomplished none of this...

[Suff]

Let me give you another little tid bit thta Kerry will drown GWB on at the debates... When the subject turns to universal healthcare

Little known fact...

You know that new Constitution that the US of A just drafted and will be enacted on June 30th in Iraq?

Take a guess what Article 27 grants every Iraqi citizen as a constutional right?

Health care!

Its good enough for them... but not for us? (and yes I have a copy of the Iraqi Constitution)

Imagine those bastards giving universal Health care to the Iraqi but blocking the slightest health care reform for us! Have they no shame!!!!
... The hottest black market ID in Northern American States right now is a Canadian Health care ID.

Imagine Americans posing as Canadiens so they can get proper care.

Sad commentary

[bill]

hey suf

caint wait till i get to see the comebacks that u gona get

bill

[Secretariat]

G..damn..sonofabitch...are you serious Suff? Are you f..ing serious? Bush supports an Iraqi constitution that guarantees them unversal health care...Where the hell is the press on this?

[Suff]

Originally posted by bill
hey suf

caint wait till i get to see the comebacks that u gona get

bill

Can I quote my president Bill?
"Bring Um On!"


Isn't that Funny Bill? When 60 minutes released the first Prison Abuse photo's.... "supposed" patriotic americans said... Releasing those photo's will cause more US soldiers to die...

HEY!!!! HOW ABOUT WHEN THE GODDMAN COMMADER IN CHIEF PLAYS JOHN WAYNE AND SAYS

BRING IT ON!!!

that was right after he went on the aircraft carrier and said MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.......Well George... They're bringing it. How you like them now..... you child.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Secretariat
G..damn..sonofabitch...are you serious Suff? Are you f..ing serious? Bush supports an Iraqi constitution that guarantees them unversal health care...Where the hell is the press on this?

Have no fear. Due time, due course. Elections in November.

Old Massachusetts political saying. Don't waste your bullets on your enemy when he's shooting himself with his own.

[Secretariat]

Suff,

Do you have a link to the Iraqi constitution? I still am in shock over the health care issue.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Suff,

Do you have a link to the Iraqi constitution? I still am in shock over the health care issue.

Article 13.

(A) Public and private freedoms shall be protected.

(B) The right of free expression shall be protected.

(C) The right of free peaceable assembly and the right to join associations freely, as well as the right to form and join unions and political parties freely, in accordance with the law, shall be guaranteed.

(D) Each Iraqi has the right of free movement in all parts of Iraq and the right to travel abroad and return freely.

(E) Each Iraqi has the right to demonstrate and strike peaceably in accordance with the law.

(F) Each Iraqi has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religious belief and practice. Coercion in such matters shall be prohibited.

(G) Slavery, the slave trade, forced labor, and involuntary servitude with or without pay, shall be forbidden.

(H) Each Iraqi has the right to privacy.



Article 14.

The individual has the right to security, education, health care, and social security. The Iraqi State and its governmental units, including the federal government, the regions, governorates, municipalities, and local administrations, within the limits of their resources and with due regard to other vital needs, shall strive to provide prosperity and employment opportunities to the people.

Article 15.

(A) No civil law shall have retroactive effect unless the law so stipulates. There shall be neither a crime, nor punishment, except by law in effect at the time the crime is committed.

(B) Police, investigators, or other governmental authorities may not violate the sanctity of private residences, whether these authorities belong to the federal or regional governments, governorates, municipalities, or local administrations, unless a judge or investigating magistrate has issued a search warrant in accordance with applicable law on the basis of information provided by a sworn individual who knew that bearing false witness would render him liable to punishment. Extreme exigent circumstances, as determined by a court of competent jurisdiction, may justify a warrantless search, but such exigencies shall be narrowly construed. In the event that a warrantless search is carried out in the absence of an extreme exigent circumstance, the evidence so seized, and any other evidence found derivatively from such search, shall be inadmissible in connection with a criminal charge, unless the court determines that the person who carried out the warrantless search believed reasonably and in good faith that the search was in accordance with the law.

(C) No one may be unlawfully arrested or detained, and no one may be detained by reason of political or religious beliefs

[Suff]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Suff,

Do you have a link to the Iraqi constitution? I still am in shock over the health care issue.

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/government/TAL.html

[Secretariat]

Thanks Suff. As long as they avoid an Attorney General they seem to have a chance.

[PaceAdvantage]

Article 27 says nothing about health care.

And maybe I'm extry-dense tonight, but how does this line...

The individual has the right to security, education, health care, and social security.

...create a universal health care system? All it says is that the individual has the right to health care. It says nothing of HOW or WHO will provide said healthcare. Our own Declaration of Independence has a similar line...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I guess one could use your stretch of the imagination and say the unalienable RIGHT to LIFE means access to universal HEALTH CARE, in oder to CONTINUE LIVING in the event of illness, correct?!!??

Again, I guess I'm just extry-dense tonight...

[Suff]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage


Again, I guess I'm just extry-dense tonight...

Its artical 14.. still not bad as I was going off memory until Secr asked me the copy. Your twisting words...

Each Iraq citizen has a constitutional right to health care....

Not life and liberty and 2 aspirin. Health care. Period.

and did you mean extra? Extry is something I'd type

[Lefty]

No matter what their constitution says, it's their's, not ours. Bush wants the Iraqui people to govern themselves, that doesn't mean he agrees with how they're going to do it.
Tell ya what, instead of wishing a debacle like Universal health care upon the rest of us, why don't you guys just immigrate to where they have it, if it's so wonderful?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Suff
Article 14.
The individual has the right to security, education, health care, and social security. The Iraqi State and its governmental units, including the federal government, the regions, governorates, municipalities, and local administrations, within the limits of their resources and with due regard to other vital needs, shall strive to provide prosperity and employment opportunities to the people.


That doesn't look like the right "to universal health care" to me. I think you are reading something into that.

I don't have a problem with the Iraqi government giving their citizens universal health care. I just don't want it here.............

[Secretariat]

Suff thanks for this document.

I was unaware of this:

Article 7.
A) Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two of this Law may be enacted during the transitional period. This Law respects the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and guarantees the full religious rights of all individuals to freedom of religious belief and practice.

But I do understand why they put below in:


(G) Every person deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall have the right of recourse to a court to determine the legality of his arrest or detention without delay and to order his release if this occurred in an illegal manner.

(J) Torture in all its forms, physical or mental, shall be prohibited under all circumstances, as shall be cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. No confession made under compulsion, torture, or threat thereof shall be relied upon or admitted into evidence for any reason in any proceeding, whether criminal or otherwise.


This statement below makes me wonder if when we leave the American forces are constitutionally bound to be under the command structure of the Iraqi Transtional Government and what is that?

(B) Armed forces and militias not under the command structure of the Iraqi Transitional Government are prohibited, except as provided by federal law.

I see they went with the UN and the Paris Principles below:

Article 50.
The Iraqi Transitional Government shall establish a National Commission for Human Rights for the purpose of executing the commitments relative to the rights set forth in this Law and to examine complaints pertaining to violations of human rights. The Commission shall be established in accordance with the Paris Principles issued by the United Nations on the responsibilities of national institutions. This Commission shall include an Office of the Ombudsman to inquire into complaints. This office shall have the power to investigate, on its own initiative or on the basis of a complaint submitted to it, any allegation that the conduct of the governmental authorities is arbitrary or contrary to law.

It is an interesting document Suff and thanks for posting. We can all draw our own conclusions from it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Nope, I meant to type extry....I wasn't thinking of you when I typed that...I was trying to be "cute"

[Lefty]

Maybe Universal Health Care is the way to go. Also, Universal Housing, Universal Autos and maybe a $100,000 per yr. minimum wage. Sounds wonderful.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Lefty
No matter what their constitution says, it's their's, not ours. Bush wants the Iraqui people to govern themselves, that doesn't mean he agrees with how they're going to do it.
Tell ya what, instead of wishing a debacle like Universal health care upon the rest of us, why don't you guys just immigrate to where they have it, if it's so wonderful?

Kuwait has No Tax's.... You want I should bok you a flight?


Btw... you know what the corporate tax rate on Foriegn firns doing busniness in MOST Arab states...?

55% of net profits. 55%. Mcdonalds, GMC, Ford,,, Thats what they pay there.... We're lucky to get 10% out of them here...

True. I read it in a briefing paper while there. I was astonished. Mcdonalds pays Kuwait 55% of its net icome. The citizens pay nothing,,, and they're water and electricity are free as well. No Tax's, No water Bill, No Electric bill... Now thats yoru kinda place lefty

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Suff
Kuwait has No Tax's.... You want I should bok you a flight?
Btw... you know what the corporate tax rate on Foriegn firns doing busniness in MOST Arab states...?

55% of net profits. 55%. Mcdonalds, GMC, Ford,,, Thats what they pay there.... We're lucky to get 10% out of them here...

True. I read it in a briefing paper while there. I was astonished. Mcdonalds pays Kuwait 55% of its net icome. The citizens pay nothing,,, and they're water and electricity are free as well. No Tax's, No water Bill, No Electric bill... Now thats yoru kinda place lefty

Kuwaiti's also do not work. The Families of the country are so wealthy from oil profits that they pass down wealth as family custom. All the labor in the country is done by foreign nationals who work very cheaply. I had a buddy who was from Egypt. He opened the first "Radio Shack" store in Kuwait. He had to recruit foreigners to work in the store. Kuwaiti's do not work for a living. They do tax the foreign companies very high......my buddy bitched about it. But he said that the Kuwaiti's spend so much money that he was making a killing anyway.

[Tom]

Kuwaiti's do not defend their country, either. They are bunch of worthless POS leeches who depend on the deths and money of the rest of the world to protect their camel-riding asses. The biggest mistake we ever made was to liberate Kuwait. We should have just told SH, OK, cut us a deal on the oil and you can have the that camel-dropping cesspool.
As far as I am concerned, we have an undeniable right to take whatever Kuwaiti oil we want - free. Screw Kuwait and a plauge on them all and their gutless children.
Kuwait? *spit*

[Lefty]

suff, as long as I live in Nev. with no state taxes and a tax-cutting Repub is President, no need to go to Kuwaitt. Besides, be a bitch converting my prgms to Camel Racing.

[DJofSD]

Just because there is a proposed guarentee to have access to health care, i.e. no one can not be denied health care, it does not mean the government is required to supply that service.

Look at are own foundational documents. Especially the phrase "life, liberty and persuit of happiness." Tell me where it says the bloody government is on the hook to make me smile?

Let me put it another way. When you enumerate things that can not, should not be done, it does not tell you what can or should be done. You don't tell me what something is by telling what it is not.

DJofSD

[Suff]

Originally posted by DJofSD
Just because there is a proposed guarentee to have access to health care, i.e. no one can not be denied health care, it does not mean the government is required to supply that service.

DJofSD

boy.. you guys.

They have a constitution. It says clearly that it is a constitutional right to have health care.

Thats that.
Its not proposed. Its done
Its not a guarantee, its a right
Its not life , liberty and a smile... its health care.

.

Article 14

The individual has a constitutional right to Social Security and Health care.

Whats your last paragraph say?

I tell you what can be done and not be done or it be done by not being done by you telling me what is done by it not being what it is?

[Secretariat]

I agree Suff...btw, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is in our Declaration of Independence, and not out Constitution as some have inferred here...

There are things I don't like in their constitution, namely the reference to Islam as the national religion and guide for laws...this points to me at an eventual cleric state...rather than true freedom of religion.

But kudos do go to them for the health care insertion.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Secretariat


But kudos do go to them for the health care insertion.

Here's a direct quote from Dubya when asked about reform of health care and prescription drug prices last month

I think the operative question is, how soon will you start working on reforms. That's the -- if I could put a question in your own mouth. The answer is, as soon as possible. That's what we discussed about -- how quickly can we begin the reform process. That's also, is what we'll with the Medical leaders who have got an interest in the area, about how to get reforms going

umm ok? I guess,

[Secretariat]

He is eloquent when he waxes poetic.

Somehow 40+ some million people in this country have no insurance at all, and those roles have grown under this administration. Probably the most fundamental need other than shelter and food is access to proper health care.

The far right approach is, well, if you can afford it, you get it. If you're unemployed and get sick, tough. We are the only major western industrial country in the world that does not supply some form of national health care. Perhaps we should just strip Medicare from all retirees and see how fast the demand for National Healthcare occurs then. This adminstration has even changed those rules. Now you can pay into a company baed health plan all your life, but once you become eligible for Medicare that company can drop you from the their roles.

This administration simply does not care about common peoples problems - it's not even trickle down economics - it's more that Marie Antoinette approach - Let them eat cake!

[Tom]

You want socialized medicine like Canada has? Ferget it.
All I ask for is the same plan congress has for itself. They have the power to vote it in, not Bush. And there just about as many dems as repubs in those houses, so what is the excuse for not having a vote on it?

[linrom1]

"This administration simply does not care about common peoples problems - it's not even trickle down economics - it's more that Marie Antoinette approach - Let them eat cake!"

It's more like how much they can rob and steal from them and the future generations. The reason why there is no National Health Insurance is because all your taxes are looted by the rich.

[Tom]

National health insurance - no thank you.
More tax cuts so I can pay my onw bills,,,,,OK!

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Tom
You want socialized medicine like Canada has? Ferget it.
All I ask for is the same plan congress has for itself. They have the power to vote it in, not Bush. And there just about as many dems as repubs in those houses, so what is the excuse for not having a vote on it?

You'll never get the same health plan as Congress. Get real. I think most people without medicare would be happy if they were at least covered for catastrophic illness.

And as for Canada, it seems even states are going over there to get lower drug costs at present. If you've ever talked to a Brit or Canadaian, I've never met one that has ever wantedto give up their national health care.

And Tom you're wrong on the House numbers. Tom De Lay and Hastert run the House roughshod because they have more numbers of Repubs than Dems. You're not just fighting the Congress or Prez on this though, you'd be fighting the insurance industry, and they'll spend billions to make sure it never happens in America.

[Secretariat]

And by the way, we already have National Health Care for seniors (medicare), just not for the rest of us.

[PaceAdvantage]

We're already all voting for Kerry, so what's the problem boys?

I predict Bush will not garner a SINGLE popular vote! how's that?

[Suff]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
We're already all voting for Kerry, so what's the problem boys?



I thought I was your write in canditate.? I have 8 others. Plus you and then me. That puts me in double digits and secures my place in history.

[Lefty]

Bill and Hillary couldn't get a National Health plan through because the people don't want it. We realize what a beauracratic nightmare it would be. It would be just like welfare, only a few cents would trickle to the plan and the rest spent on the upkeep of the bureacracy. I'm like Tom, cut my taxes forget national healthcare.
I think only 15% of people are without insurance but they can still get healthcare at any County Hospital. That's why our insurance is so high; so we can take care of the ones who don't provide for themselves.
sec, now you say we have healthcare for senior, Medicare. But a while back you libs were denigrating Bush's additions to the plan. Now you cite it!
Medicare another reason insurance so damned high.
The two biggest things we need in this country is Partial Privatized SS(Too late for the full blown thing) and Medical savings actts. You libs have fought us all the way on the two very things that would help most.
You want a socialist society which I don't understand when you look to the failures in other countries.
Why do you want to stick with failed ideas?

[Tom]

Originally posted by Secretariat
You'll never get the same health plan as Congress. Get real. I think most people without medicare would be happy if they were at least covered for catastrophic illness.

And as for Canada, it seems even states are going over there to get lower drug costs at present. If you've ever talked to a Brit or Canadaian, I've never met one that has ever wantedto give up their national health care.

And Tom you're wrong on the House numbers. Tom De Lay and Hastert run the House roughshod because they have more numbers of Repubs than Dems. You're not just fighting the Congress or Prez on this though, you'd be fighting the insurance industry, and they'll spend billions to make sure it never happens in America.

Get real? Isn't that one of Kerry's promises-to give us the same health care copngress gets? Or did he flip flop off of that already?
Why is it not real to expect to get the same health care for the EMPLOYERS that we give the EMPLOYEES?
So we fight the insurance companies. Bring em on. It is time we all started looking at government in whole new lifght-they work for us-we are the bosses. They deserve no respect, no perks, no nothing unless we allow it. They have to be brought in line ans start working for us not themselves. That is why single term limits is so improtant. We have to clean house, purge the garbage out of congress and fill it with people who know their role.
Vote out all incumbent,s no exceptions ever.

[Lefty]

In the 94 congress it was voted on just as promised and 80% of Repubs wanted term limits but as usual couldn't get enough Dems.

[Secretariat]

I thought "Republicans" advocated being pro-small government, yet look their fiscal performance versus Demcrats since Johnson.

Here's how it breaks down:

Increase
President Party ($ billion) Years Increase/Year
----------------------------------------------------------
Johnson Democrat 60.2 5 12.04
Nixon Republican 84.9 6 14.15
Ford Republican 135.5 3 45.17
Carter Democrat 181.7 4 45.43
Reagan Republican 385.9 8 38.23
Bush Republican 238.6 4 59.65
Clinton Democrat 222.8 5 44.56

Now, break that down by party:

Party Increase Years Increase/Year
Democrat 464.7 14 33.19
Republican 844.9 21 40.23

There you have it. The size of the Federal government is
absurd, and Republican administrations have done more to
increase that size than Democrats.

So the popular perception that Democrats are "tax and
spend" is preposterous. Both are spenders, but at least
the Democrats have traditionally done it with some measure of
fiscal responsibility.

[chickenhead]

both parties are a joke.....I say cut the budget by 50%, leave taxes where they are, pay off some debt.

[Tom]

Reduce government by 50%????
Hmmmm....OK, sounds good.
Fire the democrates and then we're cooking! :D

[Lefty]

Let's start with the welfare chks and food stamps.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
Let's start with the welfare chks and food stamps.

Is that corporate welfare you're talking about Lefty, because if so I'm in total agreement because it is one heckuva big pie. Let's start with Kenny boy.

[Lefty]

What the hell is corpiorat welfare? We are the corporations and we work for the corporations and any tax levied against corporations gets passed to the consumer. That's us again.
You guys need a new playbook, the old ones worn out.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
What the hell is corpiorat welfare? We are the corporations and we work for the corporations and any tax levied against corporations gets passed to the consumer. That's us again.
You guys need a new playbook, the old ones worn out.

You honestly don't know what corporate welfare is do you? ... Look Lefty, when you give huge TAX BREAKS and SHELTERS to corporations you are giving them M-O-N-E-Y. Corporations pay about 5% of their taxes today compared to Eisenhower's day when they paid much more. You still don't understand that these tricke down breaks don't find their way back to the consumer except in dribs and drabs. These shleters are huge give aways.

Here's how it works Lefty.

We give Halliburton a 1.00 of corporate welfare. They take 80 cents of that and pocket it and give 20 cents to distributors who take 15 cents of that and give it to retailers who take 14 cents of that and give 1 cent to the consumer. Hey, wow, the common guy is cleaning up.

Even after all the news coverage and scandals you still do not know waht corporate welfare is. Is that something they cover on FOX?

[Lefty]

I know what you call it, sec. Don't agree. You guys harp about jobs. Tax the corps to death and jobs will suffer consumers will suffer. Corprate Welfare is an oxymoron.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
I know what you call it, sec. Don't agree. You guys harp about jobs. Tax the corps to death and jobs will suffer consumers will suffer. Corprate Welfare is an oxymoron.

Yeah. I just watched the news tonight. Exxon which made 7.2 billion gets 7.3 million grant for security while the public transit systems are scambling for security funding. Same is true with Chevorn, and Conoco. As the reported asked Tom Ridge, can't these companies pay for their own security when public transit can't even get enoguh funds to pay for security which affects millions. Don't tell me corporate welfare is an oxymoron.

[ljb]

Sec,
Maybe Exxon could afford to pay for their own security if we paid more for our gas. Doesn't really make much difference, we the working class of America will continue to have to foot the bill one way or another as long as we have those oil men running the country. Did you know that Enron excutives donated more money to Bush's election campaign then Kerry has recieved from lobbyists in his entire career? Oh wait a minute Enron-- Kenny boy-- there seems to be a tie in here? Hummmm?

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by ljb
Sec,
Maybe Exxon could afford to pay for their own security if we paid more for our gas. Doesn't really make much difference, we the working class of America will continue to have to foot the bill one way or another as long as we have those oil men running the country. Did you know that Enron excutives donated more money to Bush's election campaign then Kerry has recieved from lobbyists in his entire career? Oh wait a minute Enron-- Kenny boy-- there seems to be a tie in here? Hummmm?

Yes. Exxon recorded the largest first quarter profits ever. And is on pace to strip that in the second quarter. I guess this is the answer to those 50 cent gas tax hikes they keep blaming Kerry for. The Bush approach is to simply eliminate the middle man and give it directly to the Exxons.

btw..didn't know that about Enron....but figures.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Yes. Exxon recorded the largest first quarter profits ever. And is on pace to strip that in the second quarter. I guess this is the answer to those 50 cent gas tax hikes they keep blaming Kerry for. The Bush approach is to simply eliminate the middle man and give it directly to the Exxons.

btw..didn't know that about Enron....but figures.

If you take the price charged for a gallon of gas in 1980 ($1.25) and adjust for inflation, 1980's gas cost about $2.80 per gallon at todays prices. Adjusted for inflation today's prices are about where they were through most of the 1950's.

[Lefty]

schweitz, and if Kerry had had his way then whatever gas is today, it would be a full FIFTY CENTS higher.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Lefty
schweitz, and if Kerry had had his way then whatever gas is today, it would be a full FIFTY CENTS higher.

More if he could get away with it.

[bill]

you make big money us old folk never had the chance

[schweitz]

Originally posted by bill
you make big money us old folk never had the chance

Don't I wish.

[Secretariat]

You tell him Bill.

Also ask Schweitz to figure inflation based on gas from the price in 2000, Clinton's last year in office to today. They don't want to tell you that.

Why should a company be making record profits when common folk are paying record prices? It's pretty disgusting. And on top of that taxpayers are asked to pay for their multi million dollar security bill. Shameful.

[schweitz]

Ah, yes---Clinton's new legacy--'The Low Price Gas President' lol

[Lefty]

Yes, how dare the oil co.'s make a profit. The socialists don't like it. If we just implement their policies we could be paying $5.00 a gallon.
Of course the Dems holler about gas prices but voted down Bush's energy prgm and then complain there's no energy prgm.
They won't let us drill anywhere or build new refineries and yet they complain.

[Tom]

It is really getting scary - if the price of gas keeps going up, it will soon cost as much per gallon as.......W A T E R !

[Tom]

Originally posted by schweitz
Ah, yes---Clinton's new legacy--'The Low Price Gas President' lol


I always thought that was "low-class" president????:confused:

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by schweitz
Ah, yes---Clinton's new legacy--'The Low Price Gas President' lol

I thought you would post something like that. Nothing like an evasion from the truth. What was the price of gas when Clinton left office? We can adjust for inflation from that point.

No...I thought not.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Secretariat
I thought you would post something like that. Nothing like an evasion from the truth. What was the price of gas when Clinton left office? We can adjust for inflation from that point.

No...I thought not.

If your point is that Bush is responsible for high gas prices and Clinton is responsible for low gas prices, then I think you are clueless on dictates the price at the pump---and before you ask I have already posted why gas prices are where they are in a post several days ago.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by ljb
Did you know that Enron excutives donated more money to Bush's election campaign then Kerry has recieved from lobbyists in his entire career? Oh wait a minute Enron-- Kenny boy-- there seems to be a tie in here? Hummmm?

Didn't seem to help them any (the company as a whole, or the executives), now did it? Where's Enron now?

[PaceAdvantage]

Oil is up because demand is up. Ask China.

That, and we haven't built a single gas refinery in this country in 20 years...

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by schweitz
If your point is that Bush is responsible for high gas prices and Clinton is responsible for low gas prices, then I think you are clueless on dictates the price at the pump---and before you ask I have already posted why gas prices are where they are in a post several days ago.

You still keep evading the question. Let's bring out the comparision.

And to PA...if China is the reason for this, why didn't it occur last summer, or even three months ago? Why all of a sudden? Did everyone in China just decide to buy SUV's over the last few months?

[Lefty]

sec, China's been in the news the last several weeks about their vast consumption of gas. PA, get the guy a link or he's not gonna believe you.
Don;'t holler about gas prices when your Dems voted dn Bush's energy plan. You won't let us drill anywhere or build refineries and you wonder why the stuff is now getting a bit pricey. Jeesh!

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Secretariat
You still keep evading the question. Let's bring out the comparision.

And to PA...if China is the reason for this, why didn't it occur last summer, or even three months ago? Why all of a sudden? Did everyone in China just decide to buy SUV's over the last few months?

Go back and read my post on why gas is higher right now---if you think its important to make a gas comparison between Clinton and Bush---go ahead, knock yourself out if it makes you feel better---its just like 90% of what you post---no matter what the problem it's got to be Bush's fault---really hard to take you serious sometimes---I gave up on hcap a long time ago and lately you have been going down the same road.

[Secretariat]

Lefty,

I am aware gas consumption is reported up in China. My question is why the sudden spike over the last couple months? Did everyone in China all of a sudden buy SUV's? Why the sudden jump? Even three months ago prices were somewhat controlled.

Schweitz,

Yes, I'd like a comparision. You are the one who brought up the inflation issue based on two decades ago as we were working our way out of the oil shortage back then. So I'm agreeing, let's look at the price of gas and its relation to inflation from Clinton's last year in office to today's world under Bush. You seem reticent to do that. Pretty obvious why.

[Lefty]

sec, don't know why, but the fact is, it's there.
We should be drilling and we should be building refineries.

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Oil is up because demand is up. Ask China.

That, and we haven't built a single gas refinery in this country in 20 years...


Just like the libs.....block building refineries and then complain when it causes a high demand.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
sec, don't know why, but the fact is, it's there.
We should be drilling and we should be building refineries.

Lefty, don't you think we oughta find out why?

[Lefty]

sec, not really. It's China and if we knew why, would there be more gas? No. Also India's gas consumption is up.
What the Dems need to do is pass the Energy plan of the Pres. and stop griping. Action, not griping.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Lefty,

I am aware gas consumption is reported up in China. My question is why the sudden spike over the last couple months? Did everyone in China all of a sudden buy SUV's? Why the sudden jump?


Because contrary to your false belief, gas prices wouldn't react instantly to increased demand in China. It would take time to have an effect on the marketplace.

Like I've said before, take a second to think logically, and rationally, and the answer WILL come to you on its own. You won't need me to spell the obvious out for you.

[Secretariat]

Pa, I have thought about it rationally, and whether the spike came from something that occurred months ago as you suggest or recently, I am interested in what exactly caused the spike. Did in fact the Chinese people all of sudden start buying SUV's in droves?

Where are the specifics here, not just, China increased its energy usage. It's in our national interest to know EXACTLY why, not some generic hypothesis that energy usage in China increased. I don't like simplistic answers to complex issues.

[Tom]

Sec...
I, too want to knwo why gas prices skyrocekted so fast and why they go up more everyday. I don't think China demand is the sole factor. I havce no problem believing it is corporate manipulation to some degree, but not 100%
Perhaps it would behoove everyone if Congress were to start looking into this and let go of the prison photo bone they have played out of proportion.

[PaceAdvantage]

It is explained almost every single day on the news and on the Internet. Do a search, and you'll find all the answers you'll ever need.

There is no one answer as to why prices are much higher now. There are many reasons. China is one of them....and where I live, THIS IS THE MOTHER OF THEM ALL PERHAPS:

Petroleum expert Ed Silliere, vice president of risk management at Energy Merchant Corp. in Manhattan, said such a change would, in turn, enable refiners to more easily meet the bans in effect in New York, California and Connecticut of methyl tertiary butyl ether, or MTBE, a chemical that was added to make fuel burn cleaner but which was found to pollute groundwater. The substitute for MTBE, ethanol, has the effect of making gasoline more evaporative so that a different type of gasoline must be produced to be mixed with ethanol.

Gasoline prices have risen steadily all year, due to a "perfect storm" of factors that include rising crude oil prices and varying state and local clean air laws that require refiners - already stretched to near capacity - to produce 18 types of gasoline - not including the three common octane ratings.

Full article here:

http://www.newsday.com/business/local/newyork/ny-bzfuel273820485may27,0,7248173.story


So, as you grumble about the sudden high cost of gasoline, you can thank your friendly neighborhood environmentalist for much of the added cost....

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
It is explained almost every single day on the news and on the Internet. Do a search, and you'll find all the answers you'll ever need.

There is no one answer as to why prices are much higher now. There are many reasons. China is one of them....and where I live, THIS IS THE MOTHER OF THEM ALL PERHAPS:



Full article here:

http://www.newsday.com/business/local/newyork/ny-bzfuel273820485may27,0,7248173.story


So, as you grumble about the sudden high cost of gasoline, you can thank your friendly neighborhood environmentalist for much of the added cost....

Beleive it or not I am not trying to be difficult.

MTBE has been around for years, its not something new so why would that all of a sudden lead to rising costs. As to the new state environmental laws. Uh--what states and what laws? I am curious. I could see them saying new taxes on gas, but I am doubtful there are signfiicant new environmental laws on the books.

The rising cost is due to OPEC's increase and supposed increased demand ,and China. I also think the devaluation of the dollar impacts the crude price for the US.

But I won't pursue this for now. I will do my own research and try to find some answers on the China issue and the new state environmental laws supposedly passed. Personally, I agree with Tom. I thin ktheir should be a bi-partisan commission to investigate the truth of this. I'm not comfortable trusting the oil industry on faith especially with a oil President and oil VP. Especially if we see a huge dropoff come election time. I thin kwe all agree this should not be a political issue. I'm just sick of paying these prices and I own a Prius.

[Tom]

I would not call some of the overnight hikes in recent weeks "steadily all year."
Yeah, some of it is explainable, but I also think this opens the door for the oil barons to add some gouging, too.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Secretariat
MTBE has been around for years, its not something new so why would that all of a sudden lead to rising costs.

You misread the article.

Read the article again. MTBE is now BANNED!! THAT is why the costs have gone up! The ban went into effect around here in late April/early May, just when gas prices really skyrocketed.

[schweitz]

sec---on 5/16 on the thread MORE EXCELLENT JOB NEWS I posted the reasons for high gas prices---you responded " that actually is a good analysis of the reasons for gas rising":confused: :confused: :confused:

[DJofSD]

First, MTBE was mandated by the state. The producers made the necessary changes to comply, and, dutifully pased on the cost.

Then, oops, the cure was worse than the disease. Back peddle time.

Now, interestingly enough, it's costing more to take MTBE out and reformulate gas without it and with ethynol.

Oh ya, I almost forgot, the cost passed onto the consumer.

Don't you just love it.

DJofSD

P.S. If this involved a stock broker, it would be called churning.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
You misread the article.

Read the article again. MTBE is now BANNED!! THAT is why the costs have gone up! The ban went into effect around here in late April/early May, just when gas prices really skyrocketed.

After reading this article I can see why MTBE is banned. however, after reading it I don't understand why the consumer should be paying especially in lieu of record profits in the oil industry. Please read this. pretty unbelievable.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14274

[PaceAdvantage]

Funny how the environmentalists, while their heart is in the right place, completely screwed things up in this category. MTBE additive was supposed to help environment, but it only contaminated it more!!

NOW, we have to put some OTHER additives into gasonline to replace MTBE, putting even more strain on our ALREADY overtaxed refinaries, and you wonder why the consumer has to pay for this? Who ELSE is going to pay?

Maybe we should make the environmentalists pay?

BTW, I'm surprised somebody like you, so current on all the news, didn't know the MTBE saga.....

[Secretariat]

I was aware of it PA, but not to the depth that is in the link I posted (which by the way places the blame solely on the oil industry and Bush's father's EPA). I also understood that California had addressed their MTBE issue awhile back and not within the past few months so again I'm not sure why the recent trend in spikes of gas prices, but in all fairness I will continue my research.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Secretariat I'm not sure why the recent trend in spikes of gas prices, but in all fairness I will continue my research. [/B]

Why don't you research back to my post discussed above? You know, the one you said that wwas a good analysis--are you getting dizzy yet? I know its hard to keep up with all the spinning you're doing.

[Secretariat]

Yes, Schweitz, and I did and do agree with your analysis. But you missed the point of my post. Let me list it again.

Pa, I have thought about it rationally, and whether the spike came from something that occurred months ago as you suggest or recently, I am interested in what EXACTLY caused the spike. Did in fact the Chinese people all of sudden start buying SUV's in droves?

Where are the SPECIFICS here, not just, China increased its energy usage. It's in our national interest to know EXACTLY why, not some generic hypothesis that energy usage in China increased. I don't like simplistic answers to complex issues.

Your reasons are a good analysis, but I want to know the specifics.

Here are your Reasons for current rise in oil prices
1. Our use of reformulated gas

2. The weaker dollar

3. Lack of refinery space in US

4. China's economic growth

5. Market speculators driving up prices

6. Fear of terrorism in the oil fields

Let's look at the specifics of each fo these categories and ask WHY?

1. The reformulated gas. See my link above. Why should consumers pay for the suggestions of the oil companies when in fact they are making their biggest profits ever.

2. Why is our dollar weaker

3. Why is their a lack of refinery space in US. Does it have anything to do with the multi-merger environment rather than one of comeptition that this admin has espoused.

4. What is the EXACT nature of China's economic growth, and why the spike so quickly. What does this mean to our national security?

5. Which market speculators, and why? Are they in violation of any new trading laws in lgiht of bush's promise for a more market oversight by the SEC?

6. I thought things were more secure in the oil fields. Will we be required to protect these fields longterm? Are they stable or not?

What I'm saying is your analysis is good, but lacking in specific reasons why these conditions exist.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Here are your Reasons for current rise in oil prices
1. Our use of reformulated gas

1. The reformulated gas. See my link above. Why should consumers pay for the suggestions of the oil companies when in fact they are making their biggest profits ever.


Wait a minute here. The reformulated gas issue is ONLY an issue because of environmental pressures, NOT the oil companies!

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Wait a minute here. The reformulated gas issue is ONLY an issue because of environmental pressures, NOT the oil companies!

Not according to the link I posted above. I've posted here again. Read it. It's very interesting.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14274

[PaceAdvantage]

So, the EPA mandates reformulated gasoline....the oil companies propose a reformulation that is ACCEPTED by the EPA, and the oil companies are still the bad guys....

Of course. Big Oil is responsible for every evil on Earth...I forgot that for a moment....JOLT

Talk about SPIN. The environmentalists would never dream of accepting ANY responsibility for actually HARMING the environment, now would they?

[Tom]

There are 18 different gas blends mandated by law. A blend sold in Maryland might be illegal in California. Thaks you, enviromental wackos.
BTW, there are ample provsions in the energy bill Bush is pushing to force gas prices down, but Kerry and his band of merry men won' t even let it out into debate. And wehn other energy bilss come to a vote, KErry can't even be bothered to show up in DC, to vote on them, whih, BTW, he is being PAID TO DO becasue his first priority is being s senator, not a candidate. So, as a senator, Kerry is AWOL, stealing his paycheck, failing to represent his constiuients, and is afraind to allow debate on potentially benificial laws.
Wow, he will make a real good president!

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Tom
There are 18 different gas blends mandated by law. A blend sold in Maryland might be illegal in California. Thaks you, enviromental wackos.
BTW, there are ample provsions in the energy bill Bush is pushing to force gas prices down, but Kerry and his band of merry men won' t even let it out into debate. And wehn other energy bilss come to a vote, KErry can't even be bothered to show up in DC, to vote on them, whih, BTW, he is being PAID TO DO becasue his first priority is being s senator, not a candidate. So, as a senator, Kerry is AWOL, stealing his paycheck, failing to represent his constiuients, and is afraind to allow debate on potentially benificial laws.
Wow, he will make a real good president!

You got to be kidding me Tom and PA.

btw..hope you read the link I posted before your posting. It is an important one to read.

Also as we know from this admin's EPA, one EPA is not speaking on behalf of ALL environmentalists. The EPA is a governmental and political organization and takes its orders from the President. It is not an independent non-partisan group This Admin's EPA has been going along with such stuff as gutting the clean air act for god sakes. King George I's EPA advocated the oil industries MTBE alternative because the oil industry pushed it and as the article details they knew the problemns with it.

Why is that spin when the facts are documented?

Now Tom, I thought Repubs were big on States Rights. Why should it then bother you that each state has the right to set its own standard? Actually I agree with you here. It is ludicrous to have 18 different blends. The environment is every state's issue, and their should be national uniformity. I do not like Bush's energy bill (no surpise here, and I don't think I am unpatriotic because I disagree with the President's plan. This is still not a dictatorship yet).

Your last comment about Kerry missing some votes in the Senate while campaigning is laughable while GW's last year has been nothing but campaigning around the country at fund raising dinners, AND spending more time at Crawford, Texas on vacation than he spends in the White House. You gotta be kidding on this one. I think Kerry's constituents are quite happy with his voting record. That's why he's been voted by his constituents into the Senate for two decades.

I have been researching more and more the reasons for this oil thing and it becomes more and more frightening. The original analysis that Schweitz did was pretty good, but some of his conclusions are flawed especially the one relating to China. Bush's Energy Bill still focuses on oil. My researh is showing we damn well better get serious about alternative energy, AND I MEAN NOW becasue we are in direct competition with China going forward for mid-east oil reserves which are finite. In a decade it is going to be an emergency, and by 2010 gas prices will be rising substantially. A decade is not a long time.

I am going to be starting a new thread on the gas issue soon and post some of my research becasue it is frightening.

[Tom]

You got to be kidding me Tom and PA.
>> Did you see a smiley face?



Your last comment about Kerry missing some votes in the Senate while campaigning is laughable while GW's last year has been nothing but campaigning around the country at fund raising dinners, AND spending more time at Crawford, Texas on vacation than he spends in the White House. You gotta be kidding on this one. I think Kerry's constituents are quite happy with his voting record. That's why he's been voted by his constituents into the Senate for two decades.
>> Kerry is a a senator is he not? Is it not his RESPONSIBILITY to vote on things when they come up?
Bush, in spite of his campaigning, has done his job. He has liberated two former dictatorships, captured sadamm, neutralized Lybia, and won back 41% of the jobs lost due to Bill Clinton's comic presidency.
Kerry has.....uh, .......er........not voted!
Yep. I , too, am happy with his voting record. :D

[kingfin66]

Darn, the title of this thread led me to believe it was about porn. Guess I'll have to look elsewhere :cool: