Smarty reminds Stevens of Secretariat.

[Fastracehorse]

Stevens heartily agreed.

"That horse is as good as any horse I've ever seen, and I've seen some good ones and I've been on some good ones, and I was on a good one today," Stevens said. "Smarty really reminded me of Secretariat the way he pulled away."

===============================

What do you think??

fffastt

[PaceAdvantage]

Anytime you get a really good three year old hitting the scene, comparisons to Secretariat are inevitable. He certainly has the potential to be one of the all time great ones, but he's got lots and lots more to do like:

Beat older horses more than a few times (Holy Bull did this in the spring, summer and fall)

Win a Grade 1 on the turf (Secretariat did this)

Break a couple of track records (Lots of great ones did this)

Smarty Jones is a special horse. A truly gifted racehorse. He has the potential and the foundation to be a bonified "Great One"

Winning the Belmont Stakes and thus the Triple Crown will most likely place him in the "Great One" category, since so few horses have accomplished this, NO MATTER the level of competition faced (and lets face it, going into the Derby, MOST OF US thought this was a pretty DEEP field of TALENTED 3yos)

Now after Smarty toys with them in the Derby, and BLOWS THEM away in the Preakness, suddenly, people are saying maybe this crop of 3yos is "weak" You can't have it both ways!

But I digress....

[SAL]

I agree. You can't fault his record, he's undefeated. I will be more impressed if he dominates a legitimate G1 race and remains undefeated. He definitely has the winning spirit, and his running style is perfect to win lots of races.

[PaceAdvantage]

By the way, I didn't mean to imply that Smarty has to do ALL those things I listed. Just a couple....and if he wins the Triple Crown, he can probably stop right there....LOL

And SAL, since when is the Kentucky Derby NOT a legitimate Grade 1 race????!!!!???? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
And SAL, since when is the Kentucky Derby NOT a legitimate Grade 1 race????!!!!???? :eek: :eek: :eek:

You beat me to the punch..........

[SAL]

Sorry, I meant a legitimate G1 race against OLDER horses. Of course winning the Derby is a tough task in itself!

[JPinMaryland]

Was Secretariat undefeated at this pt? how many great horses were undefeated at this pt? Why does Smarty have to meet any of those standards you set? He's already doing something Sec. hasnt done.

What about siring winners? Does he have to do that?

[alysheba88]

Being undefeated alone doesnt mean SJ is great. I go along with what Pace says. He has to do at least a few more things before the great word is used. A lot more before being compared to Secretariat.

On his best day no horse in our lifetime could run with Big Red. All quantitative measures put him faster than any horse in the modern era. He did lose (before and after the Derby) for a variety of reasons (Allen Jerkens earned his Giant Killer rep beating him twice with two different horses). We know from history that Secretariat ran against some real good horses too.

I love the SJ story and am rooting for him hard but think people are going overboard on the comparisons. His figures while consisent and good (very good in the Preakness) are not of epic proportions. Im excited because I think he can improve from here, but again right now any comparison to Secretariat is way way off to me, but not unsurprising in todays society (which is always quick to make such proclamations on everything)

I would also say that many in the media and otherwise are misunderstanding what Stevens said even though what he said is plain as day. He said SJ REMINDED him of Secretariat the way he pulled away. That is not the same as saying he is as good

[SAL]

Secretariat is probably my all time favorite horse. In no way would I put Smarty in his league. BUT, we haven't seen what Smarty is capable of yet. He's answered every question so far, I hope he runs as a 4yo.

[Valuist]

I think Gary Stevens would've been about 10 years old when Secretariat was a 3YO. I don't know too many 10 year olds who could accurately assess horses' ability.

[JPinMaryland]

I didnt say being undefeated made SJ great. I said it was an accomplishment he had that Sec did not have. But no one is insisting that Sec. had to accomplish this to be great.

THe pt. is that you have set it up so SJ has to accomplish x number of things. But this is all hindsight based on what Sec. did. SJ has to achieve certain things that Sec. did for SJ to be great (in your mind) but the same is not true for Sec.

You have set up a one way test, SJ has to do some things Sec. did but Sec. is not under reciprocal arrangement. It's like saying Barry Bonds has to achieve certain things that Babe Ruth did and until he does them, he cant be great. Why? Babe Ruth doesnt have to do anything that Bonds did.

Sec. also did not carry weight, so we'll never know, but this unproved issue does not seem to be holding him back from greatness.

****

Anyone who thinks that "all quantitative measures make him faster than any horse in the modern era" is clearly not thinking straight.

What are all these quantitative measures? Have you exhausted all the possibilities?

WHy the qualifier "in the modern era?" WHy is this needed to your statement? Do you admit other horses may have been as fast but are from different eras? If so then you've just admitted that quantitative methods (whatever they are) are not conclusive methodology. So your argument is not consistent, you just admitted quantitative methods are not the last word.

Frankly the only insane thing, is NOT comparing him to Sec. Let me ask you this (see if you can give an honest answer); which do you think is more likely:

A) If Sec. ran vs the class of 2004 w/o Smarty in the Preakness then he would win by 21 1/2 lenghts? or

B) he would win by a margin closer to Smarty's.

So if you say A, then here's a horse made of the very same genetic material as all the other horses who is 5 seconds faster running over the very same track? Do you really believe that? Do you believe then that Sham would win by 20 lenths over this same field (class of 2004 less SJ) in the derby?

Or how about Citation? Do you believe that Sec. would beat Citation by 45 lengths if they ran the Preakness together? Boy something must be really strange going on if we are taking two of the best horses, from the very same gene pool, and one of them is 45 lengths ahead of the other?

I choose 21 1/2 lenths above since that is based on the DRF clocking of Sec at Preakness. Do you really believe that Sec. is 10 lengths ahead of SJ? If not then how many?

[Buckeye]

We'll never know, that's how many.

[alysheba88]

JP,

No one was calculating speed figures or Sheet numbers on horses in Man o War days. Thats all I meant by modern era.

I do think its hard to compare eras in any sport when you go back more than 30-35 years. I mean how do you compare Bobby Jones in golf to Jack Nicklaus? Different equipment, schedule, prize money, competition, etc. However horse racing is the one thing that can be quantified to some degree through accepted quantitative methods.

All I am trying to say that any comparison to Secretariat is completely ludicrous at this time. Can we at least wait a few more months?

As far as your hypothetical matchups raw times are completely meaningless in my opinion. Totally irrelevant. You have to take into account the variant to get the adjusted time. The same way a player hitting 50 homers in a season when the next guy hit 25 cant be considered equal to a player who was 5th in the league with 50 homers. Have to look at the league as a whole.

[JPinMaryland]

And all I"m saying is that it's ludicrous NOT to compare him to Sec.

Why? Lets' assume Sec. is the best horse of his generation, or at least one of the best of say 1960-1980. Not unreasonable.

lets' also assume SJ is one of the top three year olds of say 1990-2005. ALso not unreasonable.

Lets also say Citation and MoWar are the best or at least close to the best of their eras. Ditto, Native Dancer, Kelso, Dr. Fager, Whirlaway.

THere are what a half a million horses born every 20 years? They are of the same genetic stock, yes?

Is it not unreasonable to suggest that if you chose the top horse out of half a million, and repeated this a number of times and match them up against each other, that they would be very close to one another?

Isnt that reasonable? Whats unreasonable to suggest is that one horse out of all these horses is so much better than the rest. That just doesnt make sense, genetically or statistically.

[JPinMaryland]

Alysheba: YOu said "by all quantitative measures..." What did you mean by that? Have you accounted for all these measures?

Did you see the pace analyis someone did on another thread comparing Sec's Preakenss vs SJ's? They came out very close to one another.

Isnt that a quantitative measure? It uses numbers doesnt it? So how can you say "by all quantitative measures..?"

[Buckeye]

Personal Ensign, 13 starts, 13 wins

Ruffian,
Until her tragic end, Ruffian wasn't only unbeaten, she was also never headed. She set a new stakes record in each of the eight stakes races which she won. She raced successfully from 5 1/2 furlongs to 1 1/2 miles with an average winning margin of 8 1/3 lengths. She is buried near the flagpole at her home track of Belmont Park - the site of her first race where she blazed boldly onto the racing scene, and the site of her final race where a hundred thousand eyes watched her brilliant flame flicker out.

Smarty Jones, 8 for 8

[alysheba88]

JP, you know what I am getting at. I am talking about Big Red's whole career, not one race. For one race I can say General Assembly was the greatest horse of all time. (His Travers win).

I am NOT knocking Smarty Jones. Again, NOT knocking Smarty Jones. I was rooting for him hard in the Preakness, was mesmerized by his performance, think he has all the makings of a great horse and am very confident he will win the Belmont.

However it is premature to compare him to Secretariat. You clearly feel differently and apparently think he is on par with him now.

Remember Secretariat won horse of the year as a two year old also.

PS: Check out the splits on Secretariats Derby win.