When can we expet individual times for individual horses after all this is the 21st c

[Rexdale You]

The technology is currently available to time each horse individually,,,So why dont the powers that be like the DRF implement such a system,,,,After all "Handicappers can use all the help they can get,,,,It would also attract new money to the betting side,,,,Your comments are welcome,,,, :D

[superfecta]

The tracks and data industry basically go out of their way to disuade more people from taking an interest in horseracing.Instead of catering to the best interest of the horseplayer,they are indifferent or downright hostile,figuring most of us will still put up with shoddy service.And they wonder why most people treat horseracing as a red headed stepchild in the sports arena.

[Observer]

There is a lot of information and technology out there that is possible, just not made available for whatever reason .. I guess mostly because of money issues.

If each horse was timed individually, would people still want to know the actual fractional times and final winning time? If so, how would it be possible to get both sets of times on one pp line?

I personally like the way it is right now .. but I do like the way BRIS shows the internal pace figures.

[takeout]

I think stuff like that must be so far down the list of track management's concerns as to be laughable.

I read in one of the Beyer books that the timer at Pimlico had been malfunctioning for years before it misfired in the Preakness depriving Secretariat of a track record. I don't think that in almost 30 years now that the horse has ever been officially credited with the correct time. My guess is that if I take how little they care about things like that, and magnify it a bunch of times, then I'll probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of how little they care about stuff for the player... especially if they don't think that it's making them money. :(

[ranchwest]

I think there is a business reason.

You can't just start timing differently today and start using it tomorrow. Fans would want all races shown with the new format. That would mean the new system would have to be operating in the background for years before being implemented.

In today's business climate, where companies hire and fire people based on improving their current period profits by very small amounts, I don't think a company is going to implement something that is not going to go into production for years.

And, of course, if we're years out from implementation, then until the project starts, we remain the same number of years out.

I'm not trying to defend the industry, I'm just offering a real world look at the likely reasoning.

[sq764]

Harness racing's been doing it for decades, why is it so hard for t-breds?

[ranchwest]

It's not that hard. It's just a matter of storing the data for years in preparation for the conversion. I don't think they'll do it.

[FortuneHunter]

sq764,

Harnes racing has been doing what for years?

[Marc At DRF]

Wow, I suspect that the entire year might pass before a fatter softball is lobbed right over the plate towards me.

Individual times for individual horses? Try our Formulator software, my softball-tossing friend. It's free, and it allows you to look at the fractions of the race in may ways:

1. The traditional way-- the accumulating fractions of the leader at each call.

2. the internal, accruing fractions of the leader at each call.

3. The individual times for individual horses-- accumulating.

3. The individual times for individual horses-- accruing.

Personally, I much prefer option 4, because you can easily spot big middle moves or finishing moves that way...

There's many more benefits to Formulator (Closer Looks inserted within the PPs, track morning lines within the PPs, numerous filters), too.

Want to learn more about Formulator (demos, the download, etc)?

Go to: http://www.drf.com/home/formulator/formulator_ad.html

If you have a problem downloading, e-mail me privately at mattenb@drf.com and I'll send you a CD version...

Also, Formulator 3.0 is coming this Spring, and there's some sweet features I think you guys might appreciate...

[Tom]

Formulator is preety neat - you can also merge works into the PP lines and see layoffs and training, you can filter out races that don'tapply, ie, if today's race is turf, you can just look at truf lines (with dirt lines grayed out). Other handy filters, too. Nice feature is the ability to export the data into spreadsheets or databases.
All in all, a very useful tool to have.
MArc, here is a suggestion for a future update-click on the comment line and have a pop up of the actual chart comment?
Might be asking a lot, but sure would be helpful.

Tom

[Marc At DRF]

Tom asks:

"MArc, here is a suggestion for a future update-click on the comment line and have a pop up of the actual chart comment?"

We love that idea-- I've been championing it for 6 months, so it's further confirmation to hear you bring it up. Ultimately, it landed on the cutting room floor (for version 3.0) because of an inability to store old chart data. Apparently, the whole chart database is being retooled, rebuilt, etc, and I suspect the function that you and I would like to see will be available, but not until 2003...

Lame, I know, but I'm just glad the overhauling is finally taking place for all of our databases. Way overdue.

[ranchwest]

Marc,

This thread is not referencing having a program calculate the time. This thread is about actually clocking every horse in the race at all calls. I suspect that is not a softball lob.

[Marc At DRF]

Well, I'm probably starting to get confused.

If you use Formulator, it will tell you what *each* horse's time is at each call, as opposed to where it traditionally shows just the fractions of the leader.

In other words, if you're looking at Horse X's PPs, it'll show you Horse Xs time is at each call, as opposed to the fractions of the race leader at each call.

If you look at horse Y, who ran in the same race last time as horse X, it'll show you his fractions, too, as opposed to the race leader's or as opposed to horse X's...

Do you mean something different than that? If so, how?

If you're talking about the actual precise timing of each horse individually, then I disagree with the initial poster, who wrote:

"The technology is currently available to time each horse individually,,,So why dont the powers that be like the DRF implement such a system,,,,"

The technology may exist, but we have little or nothing to do with it...

[cj]

The biggest problems with Formulator is that it uses the 1/5 = 1 length formula, and it also relies on very inaccurate chartcallers. The reason the technology is not implemented is money. Also, can anyone tell me why charts have to be put out within an hour of a race being official. Who needs this data that fast? I'd rather wait a couple days and get a more accurate version of the chart!

[ranchwest]

Marc,

Yes, this thread is about the ACTUAL time of EACH horse, not the calculated approximate time. We're all well aware that software can break down the times, etc.

[Marc At DRF]

The issue of 100ths vs. 5ths is separate from the original request. Or so I think. All of our PPs are in fifths because of space constraints within the print product-- Steve and just about everyone else here would like to see them in 100ths, and I suspect that will come before too long.

As for inaccurate chartcallers, I have no comment.

Charts flow from Equibase to us and we put them up because there's *huge* demand for them quickly. But we then put them through our QA process, and the PDF charts available to the paying subscribers on our site, anywhere from a couple hours to a couple days after the fact, are superior to any other online charts. IMHO.

[Marc At DRF]

Fine, but don't try to tell me there's some financially easy way to offer individual timing for each horse of every race in the country, or at least not that there's some way for DRF to easily implement it...

And keep in mind our data partner is providing these times, not us...

[sq764]

Fortunehunter, harness racing has been showing the individual times of each horse in each race for decades. The programs also show the individual final quarter for each horse. Why would this be so hard for t-breds to do?

Although it would take the edge away from internal fraction handicappers..


Scott

[PaceAdvantage]

sq764,

The programs may provide these individual times (in the harness programs), but are the harness tracks actually TIMING each individual horse???


==PA

[ranchwest]

Marc,

Have you read this thread? My exact point was that there is likely a business reason why this is unlikely. Please read back through the thread.

[Dave Schwartz]

I'd have to agree with Marc here... The cost of timing each horse (especially at each call) is gigantic.

Although it would seem like a drop in the bucket for large tracks like Santa Anita or Belmont, for smaller tracks it would prohibitive.

The logical way to do this is a transmitter embedded in each saddle cloth. (And probably a second one for backup because of the high failure rate for devices like that.)

Then each timing position would have to have a receiver.

Remember it is not just the cost of the electronics. They would be relatively cheap. It is also the cost involved in having technicians on the grounds to test and fix, between races if necessary.

And remember that this is not really a function of DRF or Equibase. It is a function of track maintenance. How much cooperation can you expect from the tracks when it comes to spending money?

Regards,l
Dave Schwartz

[Marc At DRF]

Ranchwest--

Nope, you're right, I missed your initial post. Sorry.

I saw the very first post, responded, and was kind of blurring the initial poster's concept that it was easy for DRF to implement this with the later dialogue.

It's Friday...

[Tom]

Gee, maybe individual timing of horse is a torch NTRA shold carry, after aren't they the salvation of this sport? Oh, I forgot, they don't care!
Agree with Marc, DRF is a data provider, not collector. There would be huge costs involved with setting up evert track to be able to do this. Having said, there is no legitimate reason not to do so, and it would not take a year to collect data-start publishing what you have as it comes in. Would have be in a differenet format that PP's right now, until the system was filled, but that is just a detail. What could be done failry quickly and would serve a great purpose would be to equip some horses in races with the appropriate sensors or whatever and then gather a sample of data and compare to the current method. We might find that there is pretty good correlation that would allow more accurate use of the existing data. Might confirm or deny some basic beliefs with facts.
As far as hundredths is concerned, I hate the thought of ever seeing it in print. I would go only as far as tenths, just becasue it would be easier to subtract times in my head - fifths can get confusing. In my handicapping, a horse that led a mile race in 112 at the pace call is no better or worse that a horse that led another mile race in 111 and 2 or on the led in 112 and 3. I would say the 111 and 2 is faster than the 112 and 3, but that is as fine as I wnat to break it down. When I see horse run a Beyer of 86, I have no hesitation to bet against it on a horse that earned a 78 - within 10 points is just not enougth to worry about. You can put all the science you want to into this game, but it is still a bunch of sore 1,000 pound animals running around in circles with a 100 pound guy in the saddle tryiing to hold on. Stuff will happen.

Tom

[hurrikane]

Frankly...I'd be happy if they could just get right what they do now.

Well, actually not...pays big at times.

[Marc At DRF]

Dave wrote:

"The logical way to do this is a transmitter embedded in each saddle cloth. (And probably a second one for backup because of the high failure rate for devices like that.)

Then each timing position would have to have a receiver.

Remember it is not just the cost of the electronics. They would be relatively cheap. It is also the cost involved in having technicians on the grounds to test and fix, between races if necessary. "


We meet with companies that are proposing all sorts of stuff like this. Usually they're talking about implementing this sort of technology to do "visual charts" or some sort of trip handicapping product, or just a more simplified replay product. I tell them all the same thing: We're interested, we know it will happen someday, but we need complete industry cooperation for it to fly. And to get the tracks to come on board, en masse, is incredibly difficult... More than one of the companies I've met with, with fairly serious dough behind them, has gone out of business trying to launch something like this...

As an aside, kudos to Pace Advantage for carving out a niche for some interesting discussion of stuff that you don't really see on other public forums. I don't know how many people read this stuff, but in some way I hope it never gets too big because the vast majority of the discussion here is far better than what you usually see online...

[takeout]

I don't think the person that times the races even works for Equibase. I thought the only Equibase employee at the track was the chartcaller. Anyone know for sure?

Something like timing each horse individually would be up to the tracks, individually, and whether or not they wanted to spend the money to do it. Never happen.

[ranchwest]

In the past, DRF has always shown data only after enough data had been collected to cover nearly every case. I'm not saying this is mandatory, but it is what they've done in the past.

As for an electronic timer device on the horse, I don't think that works. If you put it on the saddle, then it would actually be possible for a losing horse to register a faster time than a winning horse, depending on the length of the horse, the point in his stride and his speed near and at the wire.

I would think it would have to be done like the quarter horses, off of film. It would certainly be more likely that this could happen for final times than for all calls.

[karlskorner]

Suppose, just suppose that all of the above came about.

Every wish was granted.

What have you got ? The same information as everybody else and some programer will come along with a razzle dazzle new program and you are right back where you started.

Work on your handicapping, gentlemen, work on your handicapping and don't think that pushing a few buttons on your computer will make you a better handicapper.

Karl

[FortuneHunter]

Originally posted by karlskorner
Suppose, just suppose that all of the above came about.

Every wish was granted.

What have you got ? The same information as everybody else and some programer will come along with a razzle dazzle new program and you are right back where you started.

Work on your handicapping, gentlemen, work on your handicapping and don't think that pushing a few buttons on your computer will make you a better handicapper.

Karl

Why Not?? Maybe (more) accurate and the right buttons can help?

[Tom]

If you are going to electronically time each horsem then I don't want points of call, I want a full graphical print out of the entire race, then I can exactly say how much the "steadied" cost the horse. Anyone familiar with Sartin's KGen graphs? Imagine that in real time.
Now for the one big hitch I see in all of this......how do you adjust for daily variant or track to track? We come back to human judgement.
I think the tracks should move into the future incrementally.

1. Find out how to get at least 8 horses in each race.
2. Find out how to get scratches available before noon when post time is at 12:15.

If we ever get that far, I will be happy.

Tom

[Tom]

.

Charts flow from Equibase to us and we put them up because there's *huge* demand for them quickly. But we then put them through our QA process, and the PDF charts available to the paying subscribers on our site, anywhere from a couple hours to a couple days after the fact, are superior to any other online charts. IMHO. [/B][/QUOTE]

You might enjoy this example of detail Mark Cramer goes into in describing French racing
==============================================
In the 14-horse field the horses we did not mention finished 7th, 8th, 9th 11th, 12th, and 13th. The 14th-place finisher (one of the horses we did like), ZINZAN BROOKE TUR, needed a win or place here to have enough earnings to qualify for the Prix d'Amerique. In the stretch he looked like a potential winner, with place as the worst-case scenario when he seemed to jump over a turd, breaking stride, and was thus disqualified. Otherwise, yours truly would have picked the top seven finishers in a 14-horse field.
==============================================

:eek: :eek: :eek: Tom

[ranchwest]

Why do DRF charts have the first letter of scratched horses missing, while the Equibase charts do not?

[boxcar]

Remember this: The very people who you folks expect to implement this technology also compete against us at the windows. Nuff said?

Boxcar

[Que]

Hong Kong posts individual times in their Past Performances. In addition, Hong Kong posts free Past Performances on the internet, with a myriad of additional data (in English or Chinese). In Hong Kong, they even post separate fractions for the horse's workouts, steward reports, horse's weight, etc. See the links below for what they provide free of charge to their customers...

http://www.horseracing.com.hk/cur_pps/ecur_pps.htm
http://www.horseracing.com.hk/e_bigpg.htm

With all this data, and a focus on their customers, it's no wonder that Hong Kong's paramutual handles far surpass any track in North America.

Que.

[Rexdale You]

Thanks to all your input on this thread,,,,1st to Marc @drf,,,,its been a while since i cancelled "Formulator" it was not giving individual times then,,,,It gave the beam Breakers,,,,Maybe it has been improved,,,,Let me know,,,,Thanks,,,,The tracks must improve the product to attract new customers,,,,That is a nobrainer,,,,the track and the drf need each other,,,,nobrainer,,,,Also have any of you talked to slot players some actually talk interms of handicapping,,,,Thanks again,,,,Rex You,,,,:cool:

[NoDayJob]

Individual timing of horses will occur when it becomes profitable for the racing industry to institute it and not before. -NDJ

[superfecta]

Originally posted by Rexdale You
Also have any of you talked to slot players some actually talk interms of handicapping,,,,Thanks again,,,,Rex You,,,,:cool:
I have recently began to play these machines in our local casinos and I think there is a method to this madness.The reason being they are Bingo based,so random number pattern type handicapping may be a way to win on them.I have won enough to make me want to study it further.

[Tom]

I have a "system" for playing slots and every time I have used it I have won, once really big. But Ihave only used it three times.
Don't get to alot of casinos, but when I go I stick to slots and roulette, some blackjack. If I wnat craps, I go to the track ~G~

Tom
:rolleyes:

[ranchwest]

My slot method: Put in a nickle. If you don't win a million dollars, head for the racetrack.

[Rexdale You]

Hi Guys,,,,Let me share a slot story with you,,,,My Friend stood behind a high roller who pushed $7000.00 ,,,yes seven thousand,,,into a $5 machine,,,the roller finally gave up,,,,My friend figured this machine was overdue,,,,rite,,,,Wrong,,,He in turn shoved another $2000.00 into the vacumn cleaner,,,,Its hard to beat a random number gererator,,,,You have better chances at your favourite track,,,Rex You;,,,:D

[Tom]

Play the change machine.
You get lots of actin and always break even.

Tom ~G~

[superfecta]

Originally posted by Rexdale You
Hi Guys,,,,Let me share a slot story with you,,,,My Friend stood behind a high roller who pushed $7000.00 ,,,yes seven thousand,,,into a $5 machine,,,the roller finally gave up,,,,My friend figured this machine was overdue,,,,rite,,,,Wrong,,,He in turn shoved another $2000.00 into the vacumn cleaner,,,,Its hard to beat a random number gererator,,,,You have better chances at your favourite track,,,Rex You;,,,:D
My state casinos doesn't allow class 3 gaming,every game has to have an element of "skill" to it.So on the slot machines it uses bingo games to determine what makes a winning "roll".So you see a bingo card in the corner,and when you have a winning pattern on the card,your reels line up to pay out.Sometimes you can see patterns form,so you can kinda get an idea if the machine will pay jackpots.I never was a slots player in Vegas,but this wrinkle shows some promise.

[Vinnie]

Tom,

If you have a system for the slots and you wouldn't mind sharing it, I would be very interested in attaining it. Or if you don't mind, could you please tell me where you purchased such a system? I have purchased systems for slots in the past, but, they have each had their shortcomings in one aspect or another.

Thanks a bunch.

[GR1@HTR]

I'm no gambler, in matter of fact I have no idea how to play any of those Vegas games, but here is my amature advice.

If you play the slots and are looking to win money instead of burn time then...skip the 5 cent slots, quarter slots and $1 slots. Take your $100 or so and plant your arse down at the $5 machine...And this is why....

Say you win 100 quarters from a single pull. What the heck are you going to do 100 quarters ($25). Throw it back int the damn machine and go for what...? 200 quarters ($50)? End result is that the player will never be satisfied and will keep on chuggin and plugging quarter in the machine till tap out....

Now if you are at the $5 Machine and hit 50 coins ($250) or 100 coins ($500)...that is much more significant. Once you make that hit, the the frock out of there and like RW said, use it for horse money <g>

**Disclaimer: Take my adivice at your own risk. Not responsible for any losses. Only winnings

[Tom]

Originally posted by Vinnie
Tom,

If you have a system for the slots and you wouldn't mind sharing it, I would be very interested in attaining it. Or if you don't mind, could you please tell me where you purchased such a system? I have purchased systems for slots in the past, but, they have each had their shortcomings in one aspect or another.

Thanks a bunch.

This goes backa few years - I haven't been "slotting" in about 10 years?
Anyhow, you look for machines that have had the maximum amount of money put into them on the last play. Used to be able to see how much was last played rihgt on the machine. It must also must not have paid off on the last pull. Theory is that someone has been playing the max, lost, and gave up. Now, the machines are programmed to pay out a certain percentage, so you are looking at a machine that is "due." You now play the minimum amount for 10 pulls only and then quit if you don't win.
A fellow "harvestor" on I reduced this to only 3 pulls after several hours of "research." Don't know if today's machines are still the same. but we did nicely. I don't remember where I got this - I think it might have been an article in the old Gambling Times magazine.

Tom

[GR1@HTR]

Smash machine w/ baseball bat till a satisfactory amount of coinage has been dispensed...

;)

[Tom]

Originally posted by GR1
Smash machine w/ baseball bat till a satisfactory amount of coinage has been dispensed...

;)

Is this the casino version of "crushing" a race?
~G~
Tom