Has claiming seen its final days?

[Stillriledup]

Good article by Chris E. Wittstruck, esq.

http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=63178&zoneid=29

[chadk66]

there are interesting debates going either way. but one thing is for certain. the day they remove claiming is the day they drive the final stake in the heart of racing. it will be all over at that time. the majority of owners get into the game via claiming. very few new owners will go the way of yearling or two year old sales and wait for so long for their results. In fact, one could argue buying yearlings is an even bigger risk than claiming. you couldn't buy a yearling for a dollar and get it to it's first race for anywhere near the low price of a 3-5K claiming horse. many many owners want instant action. claiming is the way that is obtained. So in all likelihood we will never see the claiming game go away. And that is how it should be. tweak the system? possibly. But I'm not sure that will solve much.

[Stillriledup]

there are interesting debates going either way. but one thing is for certain. the day they remove claiming is the day they drive the final stake in the heart of racing. it will be all over at that time. the majority of owners get into the game via claiming. very few new owners will go the way of yearling or two year old sales and wait for so long for their results. In fact, one could argue buying yearlings is an even bigger risk than claiming. you couldn't buy a yearling for a dollar and get it to it's first race for anywhere near the low price of a 3-5K claiming horse. many many owners want instant action. claiming is the way that is obtained. So in all likelihood we will never see the claiming game go away. And that is how it should be. tweak the system? possibly. But I'm not sure that will solve much.

Good post.

You're right that new prospective owners aren't going to want to get into the game via yearlings, you need a lot more money for that and the risk is much greater. However, its possible to privately purchase a horse that's race ready, so that's a route a person who's not currently an owner can take.

The problem i see is that for current owners, what if they go to a sale and purchase a horse and raise that horse from being really young, but want to actually keep the horse? At some point, many would be forced to put a tag on the horse, but what if that person doesn't want to lose the horse? Getting rid of claiming races would help the person who currently owns a horse who doesn't want to sell him or her.

So, if you keep claiming races under your theory, you're saying that you want to protect people who aren't already in the game at the expense of the people who have already invested.

The other advantages of no claiming races is that owners will treat horses better as they know they won't be able to get rid of a horse unless someone buys that horse off them privately...which would require a vet check and whatnut.

I think it comes down to this.....getting rid of claiming races are good for the overall well being of the horses, those horses won't be changing barns week after week and will be raced for the long run since the current owner knows he or she owns the horse until further notice.

Another factor is that honest trainers don't have to worry about the robber barons of the game claiming one from them so they can "move the horse up" with illegal drugs.

Lots to like about getting rid of claiming races.

[wisconsin]

Get rid of claimers, and you will cull thousands and thousands of worthy horses from the game. Class maneuvering is part of the lore of handicapping. I, for one, would hate to bet into a bunch of 6 horse allowance races day in and day out, which is what you would see. And it you really think that is the cure for drugged horses, I have this really large bridge for sale over the Mississippi.

[Some_One]

Get rid of claimers, and you will cull thousands and thousands of worthy horses from the game. Class maneuvering is part of the lore of handicapping. I, for one, would hate to bet into a bunch of 6 horse allowance races day in and day out, which is what you would see. And it you really think that is the cure for drugged horses, I have this really large bridge for sale over the Mississippi.

BS, America is the only major jurisdiction with the claiming system it has, all other major jurisdictions use the handicap system, and it's just a better system which would also result in many crooked trainers being run out of the game.

[RXB]

The linked article leaves me cold in a few areas.

"If a sound horse, approved for racing by the state or track vet, enters the track but fails to leave under its own power, why should the selling connections be forced to retain the horse?"

Why should the buying connections be forced to retain it?

"The solution might be to allow prospective claimants to examine a horse before a race, and at a time just prior to when a slip is due in the claim box. In the same way a hopeful bidder is permitted to have his vet examine a horse in a consignment barn before it goes through the sales ring, a claimant could make an informed decision about soundness issues without a state or track vet making a decision for him, post-race."

So when 10 different potential owners want to inspect a horse for a possible claim, the trainer has to have his animal (and groom) standing there for two hours while everyone checks him out? Is he not aware that a claim slip is typically due 15 minutes prior to post time?

"In sum, it’s time to look very carefully at the overregulation of claiming, before we lose claiming races altogether."

Wouldn't be such a bad thing. Plenty of people don't want to run their horse for a claiming price but are forced to do so if they want it to be competitive. Bad system in my opinion. Too many decent runners, especially older males get pushed into the claiming mill. As noted by Some One, North America is the only major racing area where claiming races are the rule rather than the exception. An overhaul of both the claiming/conditions system and the typical purse structure would be a boon.

[thespaah]

Get rid of claimers, and you will cull thousands and thousands of worthy horses from the game. Class maneuvering is part of the lore of handicapping. I, for one, would hate to bet into a bunch of 6 horse allowance races day in and day out, which is what you would see. And it you really think that is the cure for drugged horses, I have this really large bridge for sale over the Mississippi. :ThmbUp:

[RXB]

BS, America is the only major jurisdiction with the claiming system it has, all other major jurisdictions use the handicap system

Yep, funny how racing hasn't died off in those places. Australia (population 23 million) handles close to the same amount annually on horse racing as the USA (population over 300 million)-- without a bunch of claiming races.

[Stillriledup]

The linked article leaves me cold in a few areas.

"If a sound horse, approved for racing by the state or track vet, enters the track but fails to leave under its own power, why should the selling connections be forced to retain the horse?"

Why should the buying connections be forced to retain it?

"The solution might be to allow prospective claimants to examine a horse before a race, and at a time just prior to when a slip is due in the claim box. In the same way a hopeful bidder is permitted to have his vet examine a horse in a consignment barn before it goes through the sales ring, a claimant could make an informed decision about soundness issues without a state or track vet making a decision for him, post-race."

So when 10 different potential owners want to inspect a horse for a possible claim, the trainer has to have his animal (and groom) standing there for two hours while everyone checks him out? Is he not aware that a claim slip is typically due 15 minutes prior to post time?

"In sum, it’s time to look very carefully at the overregulation of claiming, before we lose claiming races altogether."

Wouldn't be such a bad thing. Plenty of people don't want to run their horse for a claiming price but are forced to do so if they want it to be competitive. Bad system in my opinion. Too many decent runners, especially older males get pushed into the claiming mill. As noted by Some One, North America is the only major racing area where claiming races are the rule rather than the exception. An overhaul of both the claiming/conditions system and the typical purse structure would be a boon.

The way you work it is this. Instead of having 10 people inspect a horse that 9 of them have 0 chance to get, just let the winning claimant inspect the horse and decide if he wants the horse or not. Calif does this, but if the horse races poorly, but checks out sound, the claim is still valid

Claiming races would be fine except for the people who are in charge of making sure that horses will be treated exactly the same whether they are a Grade 1 non claimer, or a claimer who is fairly destined to be someone elses "problem" in a few hours.

[RXB]

The way you work it is this. Instead of having 10 people inspect a horse that 9 of them have 0 chance to get, just let the winning claimant inspect the horse and decide if he wants the horse or not. Calif does this, but if they horse races poorly but checks out sound, the claimants are forced to take the animal.

Claiming races would be fine except for the people who are in charge of making sure that horses will be treated exactly the same whether they are a Grade 1 non claimer, or a claimer who is fairly destined to be someone elses "problem" in a few hours.

Agree on paragraph 1, and that's the point-- Mr. Wittstruck was arguing against that very practice, and offering up instead a completely impractical alternative.

I'm perfectly fine with the option of entering an animal for a claiming tag, I'm just not on board with making it mandatory.

[Stillriledup]

Agree on paragraph 1, and that's the point-- Mr. Wittstruck was arguing against that very practice, and offering up instead a completely impractical alternative.

I'm perfectly fine with the option of entering an animal for a claiming tag, I'm just not on board with making it mandatory.

I just think that there should be a way for an owner who invests a lot of time and effort into a horse that they raise from a young foal to the time they're racing to keep the horse and race that horse in his or her proper class without having to risk selling the horse. Its one thing to lose a horse you previously claimed in a race, but its entirely another to be "forced" to lose a horse you don't really want to sell.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Why does removing claiming races result in the loss of claiming horses? Wouldn't they just become low-class handicap horses?

Hong Kong uses the handicap system, and has the best racing on the planet. Yeah, the Class 5 races (lowest level) are not as competitive, where usually 7 of the 14 horses entered can be tossed with ease, but classes 1 through 4 are very competitive indeed.

I don't have a clue on the economic impact of how not having claiming races alters the game, but I do think it would also take a change in tax laws for owners to help pump life back in the sport....

[fmolf]

[QUOTE=Hoofless_Wonder]Why does removing claiming races result in the loss of claiming horses? Wouldn't they just become low-class handicap horses?

Hong Kong uses the handicap system, and has the best racing on the planet. Yeah, the Class 5 races (lowest level) are not as competitive, where usually 7 of the 14 horses entered can be tossed with ease, but classes 1 through 4 are very competitive indeed.

I don't have a clue on the economic impact of how not having claiming races alters the game, but I do think it would also take a change in tax laws for owners to help pump life back in the sport....[/QUOTEAny system used in place of the claiming system you would still have to find a way to keep horses from staying at the same level and winning every race he is entered in.So you could possibly use money won in last three like harness does to force horses up the class ladder or NW5 or 6 pari mutual races also a harness condition ....handicapping by weights is not effective...no easy answer.

[chadk66]

Good post.

You're right that new prospective owners aren't going to want to get into the game via yearlings, you need a lot more money for that and the risk is much greater. However, its possible to privately purchase a horse that's race ready, so that's a route a person who's not currently an owner can take.

The problem i see is that for current owners, what if they go to a sale and purchase a horse and raise that horse from being really young, but want to actually keep the horse? At some point, many would be forced to put a tag on the horse, but what if that person doesn't want to lose the horse? Getting rid of claiming races would help the person who currently owns a horse who doesn't want to sell him or her.

So, if you keep claiming races under your theory, you're saying that you want to protect people who aren't already in the game at the expense of the people who have already invested.

The other advantages of no claiming races is that owners will treat horses better as they know they won't be able to get rid of a horse unless someone buys that horse off them privately...which would require a vet check and whatnut.

I think it comes down to this.....getting rid of claiming races are good for the overall well being of the horses, those horses won't be changing barns week after week and will be raced for the long run since the current owner knows he or she owns the horse until further notice.

Another factor is that honest trainers don't have to worry about the robber barons of the game claiming one from them so they can "move the horse up" with illegal drugs.

Lots to like about getting rid of claiming races.if they go to a sale and buy a yearling and down the road don't want to race it for a tag and the horse needs to be, one of two things has to happen.
A-need to spend more money and buy better yearlings
B-need to wake up and understand how the business is.
C-need to get out of the business.

Buying horses privately is extremely hard. Too many owners think they're worth twice what they actually are.

[chadk66]

The linked article leaves me cold in a few areas.

"If a sound horse, approved for racing by the state or track vet, enters the track but fails to leave under its own power, why should the selling connections be forced to retain the horse?"

Why should the buying connections be forced to retain it?

"The solution might be to allow prospective claimants to examine a horse before a race, and at a time just prior to when a slip is due in the claim box. In the same way a hopeful bidder is permitted to have his vet examine a horse in a consignment barn before it goes through the sales ring, a claimant could make an informed decision about soundness issues without a state or track vet making a decision for him, post-race."

So when 10 different potential owners want to inspect a horse for a possible claim, the trainer has to have his animal (and groom) standing there for two hours while everyone checks him out? Is he not aware that a claim slip is typically due 15 minutes prior to post time?

"In sum, it’s time to look very carefully at the overregulation of claiming, before we lose claiming races altogether."

Wouldn't be such a bad thing. Plenty of people don't want to run their horse for a claiming price but are forced to do so if they want it to be competitive. Bad system in my opinion. Too many decent runners, especially older males get pushed into the claiming mill. As noted by Some One, North America is the only major racing area where claiming races are the rule rather than the exception. An overhaul of both the claiming/conditions system and the typical purse structure would be a boon.yes pre race exams are totally out of the realm of things. Hell some horses wash out in the stall in the morning at the slightest hint they're racing that day.

[chadk66]

I just think that there should be a way for an owner who invests a lot of time and effort into a horse that they raise from a young foal to the time they're racing to keep the horse and race that horse in his or her proper class without having to risk selling the horse. Its one thing to lose a horse you previously claimed in a race, but its entirely another to be "forced" to lose a horse you don't really want to sell.The problem with your ideal situation is that racing horses is a business and needs to be treated as such. Horses are a commodity meant to be bought and sold. As soon as you loose sight of that your on the road to the end. The only exception to this is basically high level stakes horses. And they can't all be that. If you desire that you have to get your wallet out. The system actually works pretty well.

[onefast99]

The linked article leaves me cold in a few areas.

"If a sound horse, approved for racing by the state or track vet, enters the track but fails to leave under its own power, why should the selling connections be forced to retain the horse?"

Why should the buying connections be forced to retain it?

"The solution might be to allow prospective claimants to examine a horse before a race, and at a time just prior to when a slip is due in the claim box. In the same way a hopeful bidder is permitted to have his vet examine a horse in a consignment barn before it goes through the sales ring, a claimant could make an informed decision about soundness issues without a state or track vet making a decision for him, post-race."

So when 10 different potential owners want to inspect a horse for a possible claim, the trainer has to have his animal (and groom) standing there for two hours while everyone checks him out? Is he not aware that a claim slip is typically due 15 minutes prior to post time?

"In sum, it’s time to look very carefully at the overregulation of claiming, before we lose claiming races altogether."

Wouldn't be such a bad thing. Plenty of people don't want to run their horse for a claiming price but are forced to do so if they want it to be competitive. Bad system in my opinion. Too many decent runners, especially older males get pushed into the claiming mill. As noted by Some One, North America is the only major racing area where claiming races are the rule rather than the exception. An overhaul of both the claiming/conditions system and the typical purse structure would be a boon.As in any purchase "let the buyer beware". The pros and cons of claiming will always be debated. From the success stories like Lava Man to those 50k claimers who end up running somewhere in the mid-west for 4k several months later. Trainers who know the game can get a lot of information from many sources when they are looking to claim a "live" one like the blacksmith or a vet or an exercise rider, information streams are endless and thats how smart claims are made everyday!

[onefast99]

if they go to a sale and buy a yearling and down the road don't want to race it for a tag and the horse needs to be, one of two things has to happen.
A-need to spend more money and buy better yearlings
B-need to wake up and understand how the business is.
C-need to get out of the business.

Buying horses privately is extremely hard. Too many owners think they're worth twice what they actually are.
Well said many don't get out of the business until they have exhausted a lot of money!