We won't pay........

[JustRalph]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-letter-15-students-refusing-154329062.html

Should they be forced to pay........

[DJofSD]

Not enough details to know if they have a legitimate position or not. But, yes, on the face of it, they should pay off their loans. Buyers remorse and circumstances beyond the control of the school are not reasons for reneging on the loans.

Welcome to life -- and the school of hard knocks.

[Tom]

That is the basis of the democrat party - let someone else for you.
even if your miserable life is not their problem.

Deadbeats.

[Red Knave]

I say they have a case if they can prove that they didn't get what they paid for, a college level education. Trying to link this to all of the other outstanding student debt is just a pathetic spin job. Otherwise I'm with DJ and Tom.

[DJofSD]

I say they have a case if they can prove that they didn't get what they paid for, a college level education. Trying to link this to all of the other outstanding student debt is just a pathetic spin job. Otherwise I'm with DJ and Tom.
Yes, that's the question: what did they contract for? Were other promises made such as the school getting them a job afterwards? I never had a student loan so I don't have first hand experience but I would guess the loan is just that, a loan without any other strings attached. Here's a contract, we'll pay for your tuition and whatever else in order for you to get through school and after you've left the school -- parchment or not -- you are obligated to pay us back.

[Tom]

But taking responsibility and actually trying to prove they were wronged takes work.

Easier to take the handout.

But that is the only avenue acceptable - go after the guilty party.
A novel idea for 47% of us.

[PhantomOnTour]

That is the basis of the democrat party - let someone else for you.
even if your miserable life is not their problem.

Deadbeats.
You are one batshit crazy angry old man Tom.
:lol:

I don't have to tell you this, but keep up the good work.
The entertainment you provide to so many is greatly appreciated
Thanks in advance for your future paranoid & angry posts.

You are the man !

[DJofSD]

Well, I'm sure they had some legal beagle advise them they could get out from under their situation by filing a lawsuit. Breach of contract or negotiating in bad faith or the such.

[DJofSD]

You are one batshit crazy angry old man Tom.
:lol:

I don't have to tell you this, but keep up the good work.
The entertainment you provide to so many is greatly appreciated
Thanks in advance for your future paranoid & angry posts.

You are the man !
What Tom is saying is true -- there is this ever present victim mentality that runs through our society. No one wants to take personal responsibility for their own actions any longer.

It's never their own fault -- shift the blame and duty to pay to some one else.

BULLSH*T on that noise.

[PhantomOnTour]

What Tom is saying is true -- there is this ever present victim mentality that runs through our society. No one wants to take personal responsibility for their own actions any longer.

It's never their own fault -- shift the blame and duty to pay to some one else.

BULLSH*T on that noise.
I am referring to Post #3 in this thread...the one that I quoted.

"It's the Democrats!!!...bwaaaaaaaahaahaaaaaaahaaaaa"

[thaskalos]

I hope the students get away with it. Everybody else tries to milk the "system"; why shouldn't THEY?

"No jobs...no loan repayment." It rings true to me. :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

Sure, why not. If Greece can skip, a bunch of whiny students can do that same.

[boxcar]

I am referring to Post #3 in this thread...the one that I quoted.

"It's the Democrats!!!...bwaaaaaaaahaahaaaaaaahaaaaa"

If memory serves, BHO is a Democrat. And if it serves me for a second time, nothing under the sun is his fault. :rolleyes:

[Clocker]

It has been a long time since my student days, but as far as I know, there is no connection between the school and the loan. If the school didn't deliver on the education, they can try to sue the school. As I understand it, all student loans now come through the government. So if the student doesn't pay, the government pays the lender and collects from the student.

[DJofSD]

Yep, just like the wife/girlfriend beaters in the NFL -- it's not my fault, she made me do it!

[PhantomOnTour]

If memory serves, BHO is a Democrat. And if it serves me for a second time, nothing under the sun is his fault. :rolleyes:
But if you believe some folks on here, "everything under the sun is his fault".

Some entitled foolish kids don't want to pay their student loans...so that must be the singular fault of Obama and the Dems.
Duh :rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

Sure, why not. If Greece can skip, a bunch of whiny students can do that same.

Sure...blame the Greeks for everything. :)

I have trouble following the thinking in this thread; "Stick it to the Man" is the law of the land...no? Big Business gets handouts during turbulent times, don't they;...why shouldn't struggling students entering the work force?

You are charged mega-bucks for a formal education, and can't even get a job? How are you supposed to pay back your loans when you are selling burgers at McDonalds?

I hope to see this group of 15 grow...and grow FAST!

Whiny students of the world, UNITE! In unity, there is STRENGTH!!

[DJofSD]

But if you believe some folks on here, "everything under the sun is his fault".

Some entitled foolish kids don't want to pay their student loans...so that must be the singular fault of Obama and the Dems.
Duh :rolleyes:
Meet Mr. Similie and Mr. Metaphor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

[DJofSD]

Sure...blame the Greeks for everything. :)



Naw, after what I read earlier this AM, the French are trying to skip out too.

[DJofSD]

You are charged mega-bucks for a formal education, and can't even get a job? How are you supposed to pay back your loans when you are selling burgers at McDonalds?


No problem, just go to graduate school!

[Clocker]

Whiny students of the world, UNITE! In unity, there is STRENGTH!!

In the old Lil Abner comic strip by Al Capp, he would make fun of student protests from time to time. He would have a couple of strips showing demonstrations by a group called S.W.I.N.E., which stood for Students Wildly Indignant about Nearly Everything.

[boxcar]

I hope the students get away with it. Everybody else tries to milk the "system"; why shouldn't THEY?

"No jobs...no loan repayment." It rings true to me. :ThmbUp:

Hah...spoken like a true moral relativist. Morality dictated by circumstances. Just how evil are all the banks for foreclosing on millions of homeowners because of the real estate bubble? Those poor homeowners should never have been held to their contracts to pay off mortgages the clearly could not afford. And our government is even more evil for allowing the greedy banks to foreclose!

[Saratoga_Mike]

Hah...spoken like a true moral relativist. Morality dictated by circumstances. Just how evil are all the banks for foreclosing on millions of homeowners because of the real estate bubble? Those poor homeowners should never have been held to their contracts to pay off mortgages the clearly could not afford. And our government is even more evil for allowing the greedy banks to foreclose!

Box is 100% correct in this case.

Thask, if the students don't pay, you know who is on the hook? You and me - Joe Taxpayer. I have no interest in paying off anyone's student loans - already paid off mine long ago. If you want to go down the path of corporate welfare, I'm opposed to that, too.

[Tom]

I hope the students get away with it. Everybody else tries to milk the "system"; why shouldn't THEY?

"No jobs...no loan repayment." It rings true to me. :ThmbUp:
Nice attitude - stiff someone else for their cause.

[Tom]

Sure, why not. If Greece can skip, a bunch of whiny students can do that same.
Oh, yeah, the Greek ethic....that 'splains it.

[Tom]

So if the student doesn't pay, the government pays the lender and collects from the student.

And when the student fails to pay, the TAXPAYER is hit with it.
People like Thask who encourage that should be forced to pay.

[OTM Al]

You all may not understand everything going on here, but working in a university has taught me a bit about what is going on out there with these for profit colleges. To be frank, the vast majority are scams. They prey on people who want to improve themselves and build a better life. Some have been shown to aggressively go after people in the military, even to the point of getting soldiers who have suffered brain injuries to sign up.

The average person out there doesn't understand what real accreditation means. These guys don't have it. The government has done little to stop this stuff and what they have done has created costly burdens to legitimate schools. Further, the so called financial aid administrators at these places have also been able to take advantage of poorly written laws and sunk these people in debt for a worthless degree, making them worse off than before. I hope the people in the suit not only win, but that many more scammed by these places join in. Then maybe something real can be done.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm quite familiar with the for-profit school sector, but it's not my problem. I have ZERO desire to pay off someone else's student loans. ZERO.

[OTM Al]

I'm quite familiar with the for-profit school sector, but it's not my problem. I have ZERO desire to pay off someone else's student loans. ZERO.

Good, then push for regulation that restricts loan practices in a meaningful way to "institutions" like this and put them on the hook for the money.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Good, then push for regulation that restricts loan practices in a meaningful way to "institutions" like this and put them on the hook for the money.

If the government weren't in the student loan biz, the loans wouldn't have been made in the first place.

In any case, reform was passed a couple of years ago that withholds federal loans from colleges (for-profit and not-for-profits) if they exceed certain loan cohort defaults rates and/or miss certain metrics.

[DJofSD]

All colleges and universities are for profit. Just like hospitals. They are all a business.

[thaskalos]

I'm quite familiar with the for-profit school sector, but it's not my problem. I have ZERO desire to pay off someone else's student loans. ZERO.
Did you have the "desire" to have your tax dollars be used to destroy, and then rebuild, Iraq...Mike? You KNOW that these "universities" are pulling a scam...but you still insist that the graduates with the worthless degrees be made to pay to keep the scam going?

I like your thinking here... :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

Did you have the "desire" to have your tax dollars be used to destroy, and then rebuild, Iraq...Mike? You KNOW that these "universities" are pulling a scam...but you still insist that the graduates with the worthless degrees be made to pay to keep the scam going?

I like your thinking here... :ThmbUp:
If it was a scam, then I agree, they should get some relief or compensation -- if they got sold a bill of goods then they should triumph. But, unfortunately, as was pointed out above, there are 3 parties involved and coming to a settlement where the students get some relief is going to be hard.

I wonder what is the relationship between the school and the company that brokered the loans.

[TJDave]

If I were promised steak and got ground chuck I wouldn't pay either.

These colleges are nothing more than fancied up payday loan companies.

[HUSKER55]

If memory serves, BHO is a Democrat. And if it serves me for a second time, nothing under the sun is his fault. :rolleyes:


There is a reason dems are known as teflon.....nothing sticks to them. It is always someone elses fault.

Those students should not have been in school in the first place. Who in the hell ever heard of being guaranteed anything? Ya I know, except liberals who think everyone owes them everything.

YOU (the student) took on the burdon (money to go to school) and now YOU (the graduate at the expense of your fellow countrymen and women),need to pay YOUR OWN DAMN BILLS.

If you are a college graduate and you don't understand personal responsibility then vote democratic as you will have a lot of company. You are not the only ones hurting in this economy.

How in the hell did these knot heads pass the entrance exams?

[Clocker]

I wonder what is the relationship between the school and the company that brokered the loans.

The article says that they are federal student loans. The money was borrowed through the government, not through the school. My understanding is that most student loans today are through the federal government.

[thaskalos]

There is a reason dems are known as teflon.....nothing sticks to them. It is always someone elses fault.

Those students should not have been in school in the first place. Who in the hell ever heard of being guaranteed anything? Ya I know, except liberals who think everyone owes them everything.

YOU (the student) took on the burdon (money to go to school) and now YOU (the graduate at the expense of your fellow countrymen and women),need to pay YOUR OWN DAMN BILLS.

If you are a college graduate and you don't understand personal responsibility then vote democratic as you will have a lot of company. You are not the only ones hurting in this economy.

How in the hell did these knot heads pass the entrance exams?

Sometimes I wish there was some sort of "entrance exam" to be taken, in order to secure a membership to this very site...

[Clocker]

Sometimes I wish there was some sort of "entrance exam" taken, in order to secure a membership to this very site...

There is. It is about as tough as the entrance exams to get into a for-profit college. You have to be smart enough to complete the registration process.

[thaskalos]

There is. It is about as tough as the entrance exams to get into a for-profit college. You have to be smart enough to complete the registration process.
It should be a lot tougher...in BOTH cases.

[AndyC]

Did you have the "desire" to have your tax dollars be used to destroy, and then rebuild, Iraq...Mike? You KNOW that these "universities" are pulling a scam...but you still insist that the graduates with the worthless degrees be made to pay to keep the scam going?

I like your thinking here... :ThmbUp:

There are three parties involved; the student, the college and the lender and you would choose to punish the lender? The student could have gotten the same loan and gone to a number of colleges that may have served them better.

If your education sucks and you can't get a job blame your lender. If you buy a house and the market collapses blame your lender. Did I miss the Obama executive order that guarantees a positive outcome on everything?

[Saratoga_Mike]

1) Did you have the "desire" to have your tax dollars be used to destroy, and then rebuild, Iraq...Mike? You KNOW that these "universities" are pulling a scam...2) but you still insist that the graduates with the worthless degrees be made to pay to keep the scam going?

I like your thinking here... :ThmbUp:

1) On Iraq, that's an entirely different issue. We, the people, collectively pay for the country's national security/defense. We, the people, do not collectively decide whether an individual will or will not attend a certain institution of higher learning.

2) Thaskalos buys a used car from XYZ dealer for $15k. He finances it through the local credit union (Thask eschews the big banks). The car turns out to be a real dog and stops running after 3 months. It can't be fixed. Does Thask have a right to stop paying back the loan to the credit union? Of course not. That's the proper analogy, not your Iraq war reference.

[Relwob Owner]

I hope the students get away with it. Everybody else tries to milk the "system"; why shouldn't THEY?

"No jobs...no loan repayment." It rings true to me. :ThmbUp:

Wow, very surprised to hear this from you....so, if someone else is cheating, then I will too! Sounds like the kind of attitude that is killing our country generation by generation. These people are out of their minds in thinking they shouldn't have to repay these loans but are unfortunately a product of the self entitled younger generation who think they should get everything fast(thanks Facebook and other social media) and not have to work for anything and if things don't work out, then they can just walk away. It makes me sick.

[Relwob Owner]

There are three parties involved; the student, the college and the lender and you would choose to punish the lender? The student could have gotten the same loan and gone to a number of colleges that may have served them better.

If your education sucks and you can't get a job blame your lender. If you buy a house and the market collapses blame your lender. Did I miss the Obama executive order that guarantees a positive outcome on everything?

Great analogy....funny thing is that when I read the article, I thought that these are probably kids whose parents either short sold their homes or decided to let the bank "take it back" when they had no hardship other than buying at the wrong time.

[Tom]

they probably all have Obama phones.

[thaskalos]

Wow, very surprised to hear this from you....so, if someone else is cheating, then I will too! Sounds like the kind of attitude that is killing our country generation by generation. These people are out of their minds in thinking they shouldn't have to repay these loans but are unfortunately a product of the self entitled younger generation who think they should get everything fast(thanks Facebook and other social media) and not have to work for anything and if things don't work out, then they can just walk away. It makes me sick.

Oh...I'm so sorry to have disappointed you, RO. You are right...it doesn't matter what the other people do...the students should still live up to their "obligations". So what if the politicians, the bankers, the doctors, the educators, and even the priests...are all gaming the system for their own benefit. The students should keep doing the "right thing"...to set the good example.

You gotta be kidding me...

[Saratoga_Mike]

Oh...I'm so sorry to have disappointed you, RO. You are right...it doesn't matter what the other people do...the students should still live up to their "obligations". So what if the politicians, the bankers, the doctors, the educators, and even the priests...are all gaming the system for their own benefit. The students should keep doing the "right thing"...to set the good example.

You gotta be kidding me...

You're right - we can't hold anyone responsible for anything b/c certain classes of people get away with things you (and I) don't like. Great attitude.

[thaskalos]

1) On Iraq, that's an entirely different issue. We, the people, collectively pay for the country's national security/defense. We, the people, do not collectively decide whether an individual will or will not attend a certain institution of higher learning.

2) Thaskalos buys a used car from XYZ dealer for $15k. He finances it through the local credit union (Thask eschews the big banks). The car turns out to be a real dog and stops running after 3 months. It can't be fixed. Does Thask have a right to stop paying back the loan to the credit union? Of course not. That's the proper analogy, not your Iraq war reference.

Bullshit analogy. OTM Al said that these universities were a "scam", and you followed up by telling him that you knew all about what these universities were doing. If you KNEW that these universities were a "scam"...then why would you say that the students should still be kept responsible for those student loans? A scam is a scam...no matter WHO is running it. And scams should be stopped...not allowed to continue at the expense of the unknowing victims.

[thaskalos]

You're right - we can't hold anyone responsible for anything b/c certain classes of people get away with things you (and I) don't like. Great attitude.
"Certain classes of people"....

Is that a JOKE?

[Relwob Owner]

Oh...I'm so sorry to have disappointed you, RO. You are right...it doesn't matter what the other people do...the students should still live up to their "obligations". So what if the politicians, the bankers, the doctors, the educators, and even the priests...are all gaming the system for their own benefit. The students should keep doing the "right thing"...to set the good example.

You gotta be kidding me...

Yeah, others are cheating so I will too. I hear a lot of kids that are about 8 years old say that their poor behavior is ok because others are doing it too.....congrats, you think like a second grader.

I feel bad for you because it seems like you have pretty much given up on anyone being honest and in civilized society in general. You must be really sad right now.I hope things start going better for you.

[thaskalos]

There are three parties involved; the student, the college and the lender and you would choose to punish the lender? The student could have gotten the same loan and gone to a number of colleges that may have served them better.

If your education sucks and you can't get a job blame your lender. If you buy a house and the market collapses blame your lender. Did I miss the Obama executive order that guarantees a positive outcome on everything?

When "Big Businesses" blow their capital and run to the taxpayer with hat in hand, Andy...whom are THEY "blaming" for their financial misfortune? And why do they find sympathetic ears who are willing to listen to them?

This "no-blame" game...why can't we insist that it be played by ALL?

[thaskalos]

Yeah, others are cheating so I will too. I hear a lot of kids that are about 8 years old say that their poor behavior is ok because others are doing it too.....congrats, you think like a second grader.

I feel bad for you because it seems like you have pretty much given up on anyone being honest and in civilized society in general. You must be really sad right now.I hope things start going better for you.
No need to feel bad for me...I am not sad; in fact...I am happier than I've been in a long while. But I am sick and tired of certain "moralists"...who presume to instill their moral values into others.

The powerful are breaking the rules with impunity...but the LITTLE guy is supposed to maintain the country's high "moral standard".

[Clocker]

Bullshit analogy. OTM Al said that these universities were a "scam", and you followed up by telling him that you knew all about what these universities were doing. If you KNEW that these universities were a "scam"...then why would you say that the students should still be kept responsible for those student loans? A scam is a scam...no matter WHO is running it. And scams should be stopped...not allowed to continue at the expense of the unknowing victims.

Some corporate (for-profit) colleges have bad reputations and their degrees are worth little or nothing in getting a job. Some have good reputations with employers. It would certainly behoove the student to do some research before enrolling.

If a student makes a bad choice in schools, why would the financial institution that lends the student money, having no relationship with the school, bear any responsibility? Why is that any different than taking out a bank loan and getting scammed on a car purchase?

[Relwob Owner]

No need to feel bad for me...I am not sad; in fact...I am happier than I've been in a long while. But I am sick and tired of certain "moralists"...who presume to instill their moral values into others.

The powerful are breaking the rules without impunity, with little or no consequence...but the LITTLE guy is supposed to maintain the country's high "moral standard".

You seem to be crying, much like the 8 year old, whose attitude you seem to be mirroring.

Thinking someone who took money, said they would pay it back and isn't going to, should pay the money is being "moralistic?" not quite...

You are letting your anger at big business and politics(which I share in many cases and agree with) blind you and leave you with no common sense to assess individual issues.

Sounds like you are tired of being the LITTLE guy and have figured "if you can't beat the crooks, join them".....good luck with that and I hope that gets you ahead in life.

Its not about being big or little, to me its about doing the right thing in every situation and then everything will hopefully fall into place.

Let me ask you this. If you despise all of the cheaters in big business, politics, etc., why on earth do you want to be like one?

Don't answer that. I have no interest in getting into a fight with you on here. Good luck with everything and glad this attitude is making yo so happy.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Bullshit analogy. OTM Al said that these universities were a "scam", and you followed up by telling him that you knew all about what these universities were doing. If you KNEW that these universities were a "scam"...then why would you say that the students should still be kept responsible for those student loans? A scam is a scam...no matter WHO is running it. And scams should be stopped...not allowed to continue at the expense of the unknowing victims.

Your analogy was wrong. You tried to compare a collective choice to an individual choice. Plainly wrong.

Let's concede all of these schools are scam (I don't know this to be the case*). That still doesn't relieve the students from repaying the loans.

*I can name two for-profits that provide good value for the money: American Public Education and Grand Canyon.

[thaskalos]

Some corporate (for-profit) colleges have bad reputations and their degrees are worth little or nothing in getting a job. Some have good reputations with employers. It would certainly behoove the student to do some research before enrolling.

If a student makes a bad choice in schools, why would the financial institution that lends the student money, having no relationship with the school, bear any responsibility? Why is that any different than taking out a bank loan and getting scammed on a car purchase?

This isn't "some lender"; this is the U.S. Government. And the U.S. Government should not be partnering up and providing the financing for colleges with "bad reputations"...who issue worthless degrees.

You say the STUDENTS should do their research before enrolling. What about the government doing some research before financing?

[Saratoga_Mike]

"Certain classes of people"....

Is that a JOKE?

Have you lost your mind? I've never seen you act in such a petulant manner. YOU are the one painting with a broad brush, indicting all doctors, bankers and priests.

Was that a JOKE?

[thaskalos]

You seem to be crying, much like the 8 year old, whose attitude you seem to be mirroring.

Thinking someone who took money, said they would pay it back and isn't going to, should pay the money is being "moralistic?" not quite...

You are letting your anger at big business and politics(which I share in many cases and agree with) blind you and leave you with no common sense to assess individual issues.

Sounds like you are tired of being the LITTLE guy and have figured "if you can't beat the crooks, join them".....good luck with that and I hope that gets you ahead in life.

Its not about being big or little, to me its about doing the right thing in every situation and then everything will hopefully fall into place.

Let me ask you this. If you despise all of the cheaters in big business, politics, etc., why on earth do you want to be like one?

Don't answer that. I have no interest in getting into a fight with you on here. Good luck with everything and glad this attitude is making yo so happy.
If you don't want me to answer, and you have no interest in debating with me...then ignore my posts. I ignore plenty of yours...

[Saratoga_Mike]

This isn't "some lender"; this is the U.S. Government. And the U.S. Government should not be partnering up and providing the financing for colleges with "bad reputations"...who issue worthless degrees.

You say the STUDENTS should do their research before enrolling. What about the government doing some research before financing?

If you're arguing the government shouldn't be in the business of student loans (direct or guaranteeing), we agree. Glad to have you on board.

[thaskalos]

Have you lost your mind? I've never seen you act in such a petulant manner. YOU are the one painting with a broad brush, indicting all doctors, bankers and priests.

Was that a JOKE?

I never said ALL doctors, bankers and priests...although I should have.

What's good for one is good for the other. Justice for all...

[thaskalos]

If you're arguing the government shouldn't be in the business of student loans (direct or guaranteeing), we agree. Glad to have you on board.

Finally you see what I am saying... :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

Great thread..........

I think OTM Al has a good perspective and is probably closer to this than anybody here. so does Relwob

Good stuff.

It's hard for some to see a scam.....especially when you start telling kids from age 10 that they "have to go to college"

These kids were nothing more than contestants in the midway who couldn't ignore the carnival barker

[JustRalph]

they probably all have Obama phones.


now you are just trolling Phantom...... :lol: :lol:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Finally you see what I am saying... :ThmbUp:

I implicitly made this point 20 or so posts ago!

"If the government weren't in the student loan biz, the loans wouldn't have been made in the first place."

But I have NO desire to pay for an individual's bad choice. ZERO.

What two major segments of the economy have experienced the highest rate inflation over the past 35 years? Education and healthcare. What do they have in common? Huge government involvement.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Great thread..........

I think OTM Al has a good perspective and is probably closer to this than anybody here. so does Relwob

Good stuff.

It's hard for some to see a scam.....especially when you start telling kids from age 10 that they "have to go to college"

These kids were nothing more than contestants in the midway who couldn't ignore the carnival barker

So do you, as a taxpayer, want to pay for their bad decisions?

[Tom]

now you are just trolling Phantom...... :lol: :lol:

Yeah, I like POT. ;)

[JustRalph]

So do you, as a taxpayer, want to pay for their bad decisions?

no. people get scammed all the time in this country. I don't think they should get off the hook, no matter the business. But in this case, the colleges offloaded the risk to the government. sound familiar?

It's a relentless business. promising a better life to those who are stuck in the middle or lower end of our economy. College's like this advertise all day and all night on television.

My favorite is the school that is running the ad where the young people or the single mom attends their graduation via skype etc. They all cheer because their name got called.

I bet they aren't cheering when their resume is tossed in the trash. Southern New Hampshire University doesn't exactly perk up the top line.

[AndyC]

This isn't "some lender"; this is the U.S. Government. And the U.S. Government should not be partnering up and providing the financing for colleges with "bad reputations"...who issue worthless degrees.

You say the STUDENTS should do their research before enrolling. What about the government doing some research before financing?

Who cares who the lender is? Is it the governments job to do due diligence on every loan they are involved with. Who determines what college has a bad reputation? I can see a Lois Lerner type directing lending away from certain colleges because they don't toe the administration's line.

A person smart enough to attend college should be smart enough to find out what colleges issue worthless degrees.

[AndyC]

I implicitly made this point 20 or so posts ago!

"If the government weren't in the student loan biz, the loans wouldn't have been made in the first place."

But I have NO desire to pay for an individual's bad choice. ZERO.

What two major segments of the economy have experienced the highest rate inflation over the past 35 years? Education and healthcare. What do they have in common? Huge government involvement.

But they are doing it to "help" people who otherwise wouldn't have a chance at an education or decent healthcare.

[thaskalos]

But they are doing it to "help" people who otherwise wouldn't have a chance at an education or decent healthcare.
Andy...I can only surmise that you know nothing about the Corinthian Colleges, and their legal problems.

[Clocker]

Who cares who the lender is? Is it the governments job to do due diligence on every loan they are involved with. Who determines what college has a bad reputation? I can see a Lois Lerner type directing lending away from certain colleges because they don't toe the administration's line.


Two different issues there. Why do people think that it is the role of the federal government to tell students where they should or shouldn't go to school? Because they think that people don't know what is good for them, and they need Big Brother to protect them from their own decisions. Those "worthless" private schools would not exist if there was not easy government money to pay their tuition.

And a totally different issue is why is the federal government in the loan business? The Department of Education has a near monopoly on college student loans. And like any big monopoly, it is making billions of dollars a year on it. Student loans used to be done by the private sector. I don't remember all of these problems back then. Again, Big Brother has decided that virtually everyone should go to college. So they hand out the loans to anyone. And that isn't working, so the next step will be forgiveness of loans, followed by "free" college for everyone.

A person smart enough to attend college should be smart enough to find out what colleges issue worthless degrees.

I remember back many years ago when Jesse Venture still had some common sense. He was asked why he was opposed to increases in grants and other subsidies for college tuition. He said that if you are smart enough to go to college, you are smart enough to figure out how to pay for it.

It used to be that one of the values employers saw in a college degree was that you had worked hard enough to earn it. If I knew someone had tons of student loan debt, my inclination would be not to hire them, because they have proven that they are fiscally irresponsible.

[AndyC]

Andy...I can only surmise that you know nothing about the Corinthian Colleges, and their legal problems.

Why would you surmise that? If someone has wronged you, file a lawsuit. The government shouldn't be a babysitter and held liable for a person's bad choices.

[thaskalos]

Why would you surmise that? If someone has wronged you, file a lawsuit. The government shouldn't be a babysitter and held liable for a person's bad choices.
No. The government should be the enforcer...who steps in to collect the debts for unscrupulous business enterprises.

[AndyC]

No. The government should be the enforcer...who steps in to collect the debts for unscrupulous business enterprises.

They are collecting for themselves not an unscrupulous business enterprise. I am sure there are plenty of attorneys anxious to represent the swindled students. The idea that somehow the government or any lender is at fault in assisting a person to do what they wanted to do is ridiculous. Whether or not the government should be in the loan business or loan guarantee business is another issue altogether.

[Relwob Owner]

They are collecting for themselves not an unscrupulous business enterprise. I am sure there are plenty of attorneys anxious to represent the swindled students. The idea that somehow the government or any lender is at fault in assisting a person to do what they wanted to do is ridiculous. Whether or not the government should be in the loan business or loan guarantee business is another issue altogether.

Exactly. The question is whether they should pay and the answer is yes. Unless you are of the opinion that since other people cheat, everyone should be allowed to, which is essentially encouraging a lawless society.

The bigger question of whether the government should be in the student loan business is another interesting topic. My thought would be no. Taken in a vacuum, these loans seem to be pretty risky from a lender perspective, as there is no real collateral and there is no real way of gauging what the borrowers post college prospects are that far ahead of time.

That being said, the government has never been that savvy lending wise, as soon after the mortgage meltdown, the FHA was more than happy(and still is) to give out loans to people with 3.5 percent down. In these cases, a rather small market dip would put the borrowers underwater(or if one spouse lose their job, unable to pay) and would make it so people with the same sort of principles as these youngsters can just "walk away" from the loans and "give the house back to the bank."

[thaskalos]

They are collecting for themselves not an unscrupulous business enterprise. I am sure there are plenty of attorneys anxious to represent the swindled students. The idea that somehow the government or any lender is at fault in assisting a person to do what they wanted to do is ridiculous. Whether or not the government should be in the loan business or loan guarantee business is another issue altogether.

Here...THIS is the higher learning institution that we are talking about. Disgraced, shut down by the government...and under investigation by at least 23 states attorney general, and multiple federal agencies. The government saw fit to put these colleges out of the education business, accusing them of falsifying student job placement records...but is still holding the students responsible for their student loans.

Nice. :ThmbUp:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/davidhalperin/inside-the-ecmc-corinthia_b_6533298.html

[thaskalos]

Exactly. The question is whether they should pay and the answer is yes. Unless you are of the opinion that since other people cheat, everyone should be allowed to, which is essentially encouraging a lawless society.

The bigger question of whether the government should be in the student loan business is another interesting topic. My thought would be no. Taken in a vacuum, these loans seem to be pretty risky from a lender perspective, as there is no real collateral and there is no real way of gauging what the borrowers post college prospects are that far ahead of time.

That being said, the government has never been that savvy lending wise, as soon after the mortgage meltdown, the FHA was more than happy(and still is) to give out loans to people with 3.5 percent down. In these cases, a rather small market dip would put the borrowers underwater(or if one spouse lose their job, unable to pay) and would make it so people with the same sort of principles as these youngsters can just "walk away" from the loans and "give the house back to the bank."

In a LAWFUL society...parasites like the Corinthian Colleges wouldn't exist.

[Relwob Owner]

In a LAWFUL society...parasites like the Corinthian Colleges wouldn't exist.


Hmmmmm....earlier I said to not answer me because I don't want to get into a fight with you but you couldn't resist I guess. You did respond with:

"If you don't want me to answer, and you have no interest in debating with me...then ignore my posts. I ignore plenty of yours..."

I guess my last post wasn't one of the "plenty of" posts of mine you ignored? It doesn't surprise me that your actions don't follow through with your words since you defend people doing the same thing.

Keep encouraging people to cheat. It can't miss......

[thaskalos]

Hmmmmm....earlier I said to not answer me because I don't want to get into a fight with you but you couldn't resist I guess. You did respond with:

"If you don't want me to answer, and you have no interest in debating with me...then ignore my posts. I ignore plenty of yours..."

I guess my last post wasn't one of the "plenty of" posts of mine you ignored? It doesn't surprise me that your actions don't follow through with your words since you defend people doing the same thing.

Keep encouraging people to cheat. It can't miss......

Believe me...this will be the last time that I'll make the mistake of replying to a post of yours. Without even having the faintest idea of the sort of college that we are talking about here...you presume to tell me how "bad you feel for me because it seems that I've given up..."...and how "you wish that things start going better for me". That, I "seem to be tired of being the LITTLE guy, and I am crying like an 8 year-old".

What an intelligent guy you must be...to be able to ascertain all these things about me, by just reading a couple of posts of mine. But then again...you MUST be a genius...since you've also figured out that these students must come from parents who have already "short sold their homes...or given it back to the bank..." :rolleyes:

Do a little research before you open your mouth, friend, so you can know what you are talking about....and THEN accuse people of advocating cheating. This isn't horse racing, where anything goes and "let the buyer beware". We are talking HIGHER EDUCATION here...and you have to provide something of VALUE when you presume to charge students obscene amounts of money.

Find out a little something about the Corinthian Colleges...and THEN support the notion that these students are "out of their minds in thinking that they shouldn't have to repay these loans"...as you said in your post #42.

[Relwob Owner]

Believe me...this will be the last time that I'll make the mistake of replying to a post of yours. Without even having the faintest idea of the sort of college that we are talking about here...you presume to tell me how "bad you feel for me because it seems that I've given up..."...and how "you wish that things start going better for me". That, I "seem to be tired of being the LITTLE guy, and I am crying like an 8 year-old".

What an intelligent guy you must be...to be able to ascertain all these things about me, by just reading a couple of posts of mine. But then again...you MUST be a genius...since you've also figured out that these students must come from parents who have already "short sold their homes...or given it back to the bank..." :rolleyes:

Do a little research before you open your mouth, friend, so you can know what you are talking about....and THEN accuse people of advocating cheating. This isn't horse racing, where anything goes and "let the buyer beware". We are talking HIGHER EDUCATION here...and you have to provide something of VALUE when you presume to charge students obscene amounts of money.

Find out a little something about the Corinthian Colleges...and THEN support the notion that these students are "out of their minds in thinking that they shouldn't have to repay these loans"...as you said in your post #42.


Are you presuming I don't know anything about the Corinthian Colleges? Well, you would be wrong. Aren't you "ascertaining something about me" by "just reading a couple of my posts" like you accuse me of doing? Seems like it.....

I know all about them. Did these kids get treated unfairly by the college? Heck yes and I share your anger about what these colleges did. I also think there is probably a deeper issue of these schools even being accredited in any way. However, who picked this college to attend? The students did. Life isn't fair and this is a great example of it. Who they got the money from has nothing to do with it and the students should go after who screwed them, not who they asked for money so they could go through with their bad decision. As I have mentioned, the fact that the government can and does lend money is debatable and who knows, we may agree on that topic.

You said that the students shouldn't have to pay and referenced as an example the fact that "the politicians,the bankers,the doctors,the educators and even the priests are all gaming the system" (in post 45 but for some reason, you denied it in post 59). That is saying that they can avoid paying because all others game the system. You obviously feel like all those people are cheating, so by comparing them to the students are you not advocating cheating?

I simply disagree with that and think it is definitely an attitude that I hear a lot from 8 year olds. And yes, a quote like that saying everyone games the system does seem like a quote from someone who has given up. As far as being the little guy, that came from a quote of yours too. I dont think those things are what you are "about". I think they are thoughts you had, which given your past posts, seemed to be kind of off comparatively, thats all.

Its funny because a lot of your apparent disgust in terms of things in general being corrupt is a thought that I have more and more as I get older and frankly are pretty depressing. It was easier when we were younger and thought everything was fair and worked correctly. Thats probably something we can agree on. I just dont think that advocating walking away from commitment is a solution. As you say, the government bailed out big business and that wasn't fair to me but advocating it happening over and over again is not a solution to me.

Its too bad you aren't going to respond to any of my posts, if you do follow through on that. I have always found your posts to be interesting and like I said before, your thoughts on this topic just didn't seem to reflect other posts and I commented on how the posts sounded, not anything about you in general. I think we both know that posts on here are snippets and not realistically reflections of anyone's whole self. One thing we can probably agree on is that its ok to agree to disagree on these things. Thats way too much from me on this but even though I think you are way off on this particular issue, I will leave you with something I think I did on past posts of yours that I did agree with:

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Thask,

You've made a lot of assumptions in your posts in this thread. You implicitly declare superior knowledge of the for-profit education sector. Interesting. I've researched this matter for about three years. I hope your research is deeper than reading a few Huffington Post articles. Otherwise, your "holy than thou" attitude makes Boxcar seem humble.

[Clocker]

I haven't done any research, but my instinctive reaction is that both the problem with bad for-profit colleges and the problem with "crippling" student loan debt have gotten a lot worse since the federal government took over the student loan business. It seems that there is too much easy money available, and that encourages bad decision making.

Back in the stone age when I was in college, student loans were rarely even a topic of conversation. If you couldn't afford tuition, you got a job and cut back to going to school part time or took a semester off.

[Tom]

Back in the stone age when I was in college, student loans were rarely even a topic of conversation. If you couldn't afford tuition, you got a job and cut back to going to school part time or took a semester off.

What a dope I was - paid back my loans, took several jobs, attended classes.
No one told me all I had to do was register democrat and get it all for nothing. :rolleyes:

[AndyC]

Here...THIS is the higher learning institution that we are talking about. Disgraced, shut down by the government...and under investigation by at least 23 states attorney general, and multiple federal agencies. The government saw fit to put these colleges out of the education business, accusing them of falsifying student job placement records...but is still holding the students responsible for their student loans.

Nice. :ThmbUp:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/davidhalperin/inside-the-ecmc-corinthia_b_6533298.html

If the government forced the students to choose that college and get a loan to go there then they should certainly be held responsible. There are a lot of things that I have gotten loans for or charged on a credit card that I haven't been happy with. The beef should be with the people you pay the money to and not to the person who provides you the credit.

[AndyC]

..... We are talking HIGHER EDUCATION here...and you have to provide something of VALUE when you presume to charge students obscene amounts of money.


Are you saying that the students did not get an education? I thought the beef was that they weren't getting jobs. There are a glut of recent college grads who can't get jobs so should all of them get their loans cancelled?

[lamboguy]

they must have learned this we won't pay stuff from the large American Corporations that go bankrupt and come back stronger than before.

look at company's like American Airlines, Delta Airlines, United Airlines, Chrysler, General Motors and many different retail operations that go bankrupt and wipe out their debt, then they come back and wipe out the competitors with lower prices and when they vanish those guys they raise their prices to sky, pay big stock dividends to their shareholders and go on their merry way.

i remember when CVS started, the letters stand for Consumer Value Stores, they actually had great prices 35 years ago. they wiped out all the smaller drug stores that couldn't sell for those small prices. then bang, the little drugstores are all gone and the prices in CVS are out of sight and out of mind. 30 years ago a prescription for penicillin for 12 pills was $2.50, today with all the advanced technology its $79 at the local CVS if you don't have prescription benefits, in case you do, they still get you for the $15 co-pay.

my wife had an exhaust leak so she brought the car to the dealer. they told her the warranty does not cover the the exhaust, but they can give her a deal, it will only cost her $1700 to fix. she called me, i told her i will get it fixed better than the dealer for under $500. i brought the car to my friend that has an exhaust shop 30 miles down the street, he put in a new muffleur and soldered one of the pipes and charged me $162 for the job.
the best one with her car is that if she wants another key that you can't get at your local hardware store these days, the dealer wants $750 because its a special chip.

the bottom line is that when you are dealing with big business you don't stand a prayer these days.

[thaskalos]

Thask,

You've made a lot of assumptions in your posts in this thread. You implicitly declare superior knowledge of the for-profit education sector. Interesting. I've researched this matter for about three years. I hope your research is deeper than reading a few Huffington Post articles. Otherwise, your "holy than thou" attitude makes Boxcar seem humble.
Yes, Mike...my research in this matter is deeper than yours. So...do I STILL have a "holier than thou" attitude?"

Am I really the one who has made a lot of assumptions here? What exactly have I done? Do you see me participating regularly in these types of threads...trolling just to arouse a reaction? I voiced a dissenting opinion here...based on direct knowledge that I have gained in the past. This makes me the "petulant", "8 year-old child"...who is "crying" because he isn't getting things his way?

My comments in this thread seem to have aroused the "sympathy" of a certain member of our board here...who is telling me how BAD he feels for me, because it seems that I am "giving up"...and how he wishes that things "start going better for me"...so I no longer feel like the stepped-upon "little guy". And I am the one making a lot of "assumptions" here?

When I debate...I don't cast personal aspersions...and I won't tolerate them from others. I am all for CIVIL discourse...which probably means that the off-topics here may not be the best place for me to be. I think I'll heed your advice to Capper Al...and confine myself to the top 6 forums of this site. :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yes, Mike...my research in this matter is deeper than yours.

When I debate...I don't cast personal aspersions...and I won't tolerate them from others. I am all for CIVIL discourse...which probably means that the off-topics here may not be the best place for me to be. I think I'll heed your advice to Capper Al...and confine myself to the top 6 forums of this site. :)

In that case, why leave the topic? While I adamantly disagree with you on this topic, I'd love to hear your research into the matter. I used the term petulant b/c your reaction on this matter was so out of character. If that offended you (why wouldn't it), I apologize. Please share your research.

[thaskalos]

In that case, why leave the topic? While I adamantly disagree with you on this topic, I'd love to hear your research into the matter. I used the term petulant b/c your reaction on this matter was so out of character. If that offended you (why wouldn't it), I apologize. Please share your research.

If you want to debate with me...come over to the racing forums. This off-topic board isn't right for me...and I knew this from the start. What I am still doing here, I'll never know...

Ciao...

[PaceAdvantage]

But if you believe some folks on here, "everything under the sun is his fault".

Some entitled foolish kids don't want to pay their student loans...so that must be the singular fault of Obama and the Dems.
Duh :rolleyes:Where else does this mentality emanate from if not left-wing politically correct, everyone gets a trophy, Democrats?

I say Tom has a point.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

What a dope I was - paid back my loans, took several jobs, attended classes.
No one told me all I had to do was register democrat and get it all for nothing. :rolleyes:

"Either you use the system, or the system uses you...."

I'm a dope too. Every time I talk with my dad, I curse him for molding me with integrity. Life would have been easier, and would be far less frustrating now, if I just gamed the system like the 15 students want to do.....

[HUSKER55]

they must have learned this we won't pay stuff from the large American Corporations that go bankrupt and come back stronger than before.

look at company's like American Airlines, Delta Airlines, United Airlines, Chrysler, General Motors and many different retail operations that go bankrupt and wipe out their debt, then they come back and wipe out the competitors with lower prices and when they vanish those guys they raise their prices to sky, pay big stock dividends to their shareholders and go on their merry way.

i remember when CVS started, the letters stand for Consumer Value Stores, they actually had great prices 35 years ago. they wiped out all the smaller drug stores that couldn't sell for those small prices. then bang, the little drugstores are all gone and the prices in CVS are out of sight and out of mind. 30 years ago a prescription for penicillin for 12 pills was $2.50, today with all the advanced technology its $79 at the local CVS if you don't have prescription benefits, in case you do, they still get you for the $15 co-pay.

my wife had an exhaust leak so she brought the car to the dealer. they told her the warranty does not cover the the exhaust, but they can give her a deal, it will only cost her $1700 to fix. she called me, i told her i will get it fixed better than the dealer for under $500. i brought the car to my friend that has an exhaust shop 30 miles down the street, he put in a new muffleur and soldered one of the pipes and charged me $162 for the job.
the best one with her car is that if she wants another key that you can't get at your local hardware store these days, the dealer wants $750 because its a special chip.

the bottom line is that when you are dealing with big business you don't stand a prayer these days.


The one that always gets me are the saps that shop at Sams Club. Why would anyone pay to shop at any store? Here in Milwauke they take your money as they check you out and then you have to go get checked out in a SECOND line to make sure they didn't miss anything.

Here is the best part. A car dealer sent one of his part-timers to get a case of paper towels and some soft crub which comes 48 in a case. That poor girl had to wait in line to get checked out and then wait another 45 minutes to get thru the second line.

She saved 12 cents on the paper towels ($2.88) and 3 cents on 96 cans of soft scrub another $2.88 for a grand total of $5.76 and she only had to drive 5 miles and waste 2 hours.

I asked the dealer what was he thinking and he said "I never sweat the small stuff".


here is another one. Mom & Pop stores used to be able to take care of families. Walmart and the rest of the group came in and wiped them out and now everyone has to work at Walmart and the like for less money and then they worry abut having a job, getting paid less and why everything is going to hell.

We always shop at one of the few remaining mom and pops. No...we don't always get the best price but the ability to tell Walmart and the rest to take a hike picks up the slack casue I don't sweat the small stuff. :D :eek: :D

How is that for a rant? And good morning to you to!

[OTM Al]

Just a few more facts about the situation and a personal opinion.

The federal gov't does not loan the money, they just secure the loans. They will not, or at least are not supposed to, back loans for just any institutions. Institutions are supposed to meet certain standards, including placement, to be eligible to be part of the program. The gov't backing these loans is a seal of approval and legitimacy for the school. In this case there was a failure of that system. This institution was essentially bribing hiring agencies to hire grads for a month or so and then do whatever, which usually meant a firing. This allowed them to falsify placement records. They were also very deceptive in their academic processes. The gov't did find out about this and stopped backing loans last year. However, they took no action to make current students right and instead sold off the company to another private concern to run and profit on.

Some here say they think the federal gov't should get out of the loan business and students should get their loans like anyone would when buying a car. Theoretically this sounds right, but in reality what happens is that kids that aren't well off will almost entirely be cut off from higher education opportunities. Their parents won't be able to get the loans and then a college education becomes a dividing line in society that only the better off can afford. The difference in salary between those that have college and those that only have high school is big. It's all great to say poor people should be able to pull themselves up, but something like this would create a huge barrier. Further, we would be wasting the talent and skills of part of our society by consigning them to more menial jobs while lesser students would be allowed to do much better simply because who their parents are. There is enough of that already.

I know this because the school I work for is incredibly expensive.City students are lucky to have the CUNY system as an affordable option, but piece by piece, despite what the lottery commercials claim, less and less support is going to education. CUNY didn't use to charge tuition and had some really good schools, but that is the case no longer and every year the State cuts more. This is a long term recipe for disaster.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The federal loan guarantee program ended in 2010 (Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act) - the thought was private lenders were getting rich at the expense of taxpayers (probably true). There are still private servicers, though.

Of course most students/parents can't afford college without Federal loans. What two large swathes of the economy have experienced the highest rates of inflation over the past 35 years? Education and healthcare. What do they have in common? Heavy government involvement. Turn back time (pre-1970s) and college was much, much more affordable. What was true pre-1970s? Much, much less govt involvement in higher education.

[OTM Al]

The federal loan guarantee program ended in 2010 (Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act) - the thought was private lenders were getting rich at the expense of taxpayers (probably true). There are still private servicers, though.

Of course most students/parents can't afford college without Federal loans. What two large swathes of the economy have experienced the highest rates of inflation over the past 35 years? Education and healthcare. What do they have in common? Heavy government involvement. Turn back time (pre-1970s) and college was much, much more affordable. What was true pre-1970s? Much, much less govt involvement in higher education.

Not a good analysis. Correlation, not causation. What was also true in the 1970s and before was a much smaller gap between earnings of college and high school grads. You could get a well paying job with only HS and advance. Not true anymore. Technology in the workplace has exploded. Manufacturing no longer is king. College costs more now because it is worth more. That is simple economics. People pay for it because they can't afford not to. Healthcare is a very different story.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Not a good analysis. Correlation, not causation. What was also true in the 1970s and before was a much smaller gap between earnings of college and high school grads. You could get a well paying job with only HS and advance. Not true anymore. Technology in the workplace has exploded. Manufacturing no longer is king. College costs more now because it is worth more. That is simple economics. People pay for it because they can't afford not to. Healthcare is a very different story.

1) Please share with us non-teaching-faculty costs/student in 1965 vs today.*

1a) Please share with us facility costs/student in 1965 vs today.*

*Inflation adjusted of course.

1 and 1a never would have grown at an out-of-control clip without the "benevolent" hand of government. "Simple economics" don't apply when the market is obscured by big government.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'd like to take things one step further, if I may.

The quality of a college education today is much worse* than in 1965, yet the price doesn't reflect the degradation.

*general statement - education at the elite schools, like an NYU, may be just as good.

[Clocker]

The federal gov't does not loan the money, they just secure the loans.

That's what I thought, but Elizabeth Warren and others in Congress have been complaining that the government is making billions on student loan interest and want to end that. That got me looking and I found a web site for the U.S. Department of Education's Direct Loan Program.

http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/DirectLoan/index.html

[Saratoga_Mike]

That's what I thought, but Elizabeth Warren and others in Congress have been complaining that the government is making billions on student loan interest and want to end that. That got me looking and I found a web site for the U.S. Department of Education's Direct Loan Program.

http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/DirectLoan/index.html

Please see post 93 - the payment mechanism (direct vs guaranteed) changed in 2010.

I hate to agree with Elizabeth Warren on anything, but I think she and the Dems were right on this issue. The guarantee was de facto corporate welfare, which I oppose.

[OTM Al]

I'd like to take things one step further, if I may.

The quality of a college education today is much worse* than in 1965, yet the price doesn't reflect the degradation.

*general statement - education at the elite schools, like an NYU, may be just as good.

NYU is way way better that it was even 20 years ago. I totally disagree with this whole point though. Maybe the average skill of the college student has gone down but there are so many more going now, that cannot be unexpected. Facilities and resources available to today's student are light years beyond that of 50 years ago. As to your per student costs, sure they've gone way up, but again I think you've got correlation and not causality. Opportunity costs of working in higher Ed have also gone way up. Salaries are no where close to private sector. Don't get me wrong, I do ok, but if I was indifferent to the industry, I wouldn't be working in it as I could do better. Further, how much did schools have to deal with liability issues 50 years ago. Undergrads, and thank god I work with grads, seem to need constant attention now, much more than I ever got. All that stuff costs. And even then my school is so understaffed its ridiculous.

[OTM Al]

Please see post 93 - the payment mechanism (direct vs guaranteed) changed in 2010.

I hate to agree with Elizabeth Warren on anything, but I think she and the Dems were right on this issue. The guarantee was de facto corporate welfare, which I oppose.

Agreed. The whole thing is corrupt. Seen a couple things I can't talk about that are just crazy.

[Saratoga_Mike]

NYU is way way better that it was even 20 years ago. I totally disagree with this whole point though. Maybe the average skill of the college student has gone down but there are so many more going now, that cannot be unexpected. Facilities and resources available to today's student are light years beyond that of 50 years ago. As to your per student costs, sure they've gone way up, but again I think you've got correlation and not causality. Opportunity costs of working in higher Ed have also gone way up. Salaries are no where close to private sector. Don't get me wrong, I do ok, but if I was indifferent to the industry, I wouldn't be working in it as I could do better. Further, 2) how much did schools have to deal with liability issues 50 years ago. 3) Undergrads, and thank god I work with grads, seem to need constant attention now, much more than I ever got. All that stuff costs. And even then my school is so understaffed its ridiculous.

1) Luxurious dorms/lounges, state-of-the-art fitness facilities and over-the-top technology (unless tech-oriented majors of course) do nothing to improve the educational process. I suspect you disagree with this point, which is your right of course.

2) In loco parentis is a product of the nanny state.

3) They're ill prepared, I'm sure.

[OTM Al]

1) Luxurious dorms/lounges, state-of-the-art fitness facilities and over-the-top technology (unless tech-oriented majors of course) do nothing to improve the educational process. I suspect you disagree with this point, which is your right of course.

2) In loco parentis is a product of the nanny state.

3) They're ill prepared, I'm sure.
Only luxury dorms I've seen are built for athletic teams. I do have a problem with that. Technology is needed in all fields, including humanities, if students are to remain competitive. Fitness stuff generally again for athletics, but promotion of healthy habits does improve the workforce.

In loco parentis has nothing to do with the state. Much more to do with the Dr. Spock stuff of their parents generation.

A segment is ill prepared. That's because cities and states don't care enough about education. If all that lottery money really did go to education, then there would be plenty of money to pay for good teachers at the lower levels.

You are beginning to sound like the cliched back in my day guy.i think some of your points have been valid but others seem to be coming from the tired it was good enough for me mindset. The world keeps changing. What was good enough for us doesn't get the job done anymore.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Only luxury dorms I've seen are built for athletic teams. I do have a problem with that. Technology is needed in all fields, including humanities, if students are to remain competitive. Fitness stuff generally again for athletics, but promotion of healthy habits does improve the workforce.

In loco parentis has nothing to do with the state. Much more to do with the Dr. Spock stuff of their parents generation.

A segment is ill prepared. That's because cities and states don't care enough about education. If all that lottery money really did go to education, then there would be plenty of money to pay for good teachers at the lower levels.

You are beginning to sound like the cliched back in my day guy.i think some of your points have been valid but others seem to be coming from the tired it was good enough for me mindset. The world keeps changing. What was good enough for us doesn't get the job done anymore.

None of my comments are specific to NYU, as I have no earthly idea what goes on there. I trust what you say about NYU. My comments are about colleges and universities in general.

Dorms are going the way of the dinosaur- suites are the new thing, much, much more expensive.

Technology isn't needed in the humanities; teach kids to think critically and write well. That's what private-sector employers want. Computers aren't needed.

As for in loco parentis, I was referring to how case law has evolved on the matter over time, increasing schools' responsibilities - symptomatic of the nanny state.

Cites/states don't need more money for education. To improve K-12 education we need the following: 1) more parental involvement, 2) better teachers, 3) a safe environment conducive to learning. Should we pay great teachers more money? Yes. How do we fund it? Easy, fire the layers of fat that have grown over the past 40 years (like colleges the ratio of non-teachers to teachers at the K-12 level is out of control).

In any case, I suspect we won't agree on much.

[Saratoga_Mike]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323316804578161490716042814

No fat at colleges/universities? Just read the 4th paragraph.

[Clocker]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323316804578161490716042814

No fat at colleges/universities? Just read the 4th paragraph.

The article is behind a subscription paywall. You can get around it via a Google search on the title.

[OTM Al]

If you all think computers and technology are not needed in the humanities, you have no idea what is going on in those disciplines. Writing well is not enough anymore.