The M & M Boys of 1961

[cj's dad]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/M%26M_Boys_1961.png

1961 was this the greatest home run contest ever? I remember it like it was yesterday !! Roger hit #59 in Baltimore ( I was there) he had a chance to hit #60 but did not succeed. He hit #60 vs Milt Pappas in Yankee stadium and then hit #61 at home vs Boston (Tracy Stallard) in front of a less than sold out Yankee stadium Mickey packed it in due to a (I believe) leg injury with 54.

[reckless]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/M%26M_Boys_1961.png

1961 was this the greatest home run contest ever? I remember it like it was yesterday !! Roger hit #59 in Baltimore ( I was there) he had a chance to hit #60 but did not succeed. He hit #60 vs Milt Pappas in Yankee stadium and then hit #61 at home vs Boston (Tracy Stallard) in front of a less than sold out Yankee stadium Mickey packed it in due to a (I believe) leg injury with 54.

Not a big deal but Maris hit #60 against Fat Jack Fisher.

No. 59 was hit against Milt Pappas.

[cj's dad]

Not a big deal but Maris hit #60 against Fat Jack Fisher.

No. 59 was hit against Milt Pappas.

You are right - I had the order backwards/59 vs Milt and 60 in NY vs JF - RM hit #59 early in the game- on a Tues.or Wed. I think- - and I believe he had 2 more shots at #60. Many forget that he was a fine right fielder.

[Greyfox]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/M%26M_Boys_1961.png

1961 was this the greatest home run contest ever? I remember it like it was yesterday !! Roger hit #59 in Baltimore ( I was there) he had a chance to hit #60 but did not succeed. He hit #60 vs Milt Pappas in Yankee stadium and then hit #61 at home vs Boston (Tracy Stallard) in front of a less than sold out Yankee stadium Mickey packed it in due to a (I believe) leg injury with 54.

For me it was the greatest home run race ever.
Those were exciting days for baseball.
Since the drug scandals of the last twenty years, I have no interest in home run derbies.

[Dave Schwartz]

In 1980, Al Downing had dinner at my home in Anaheim. (I met him at Santa Anita and brought him home for dinner.)

That evening, Al wanted to talk about nothing but what a good hitter he was. LOL

It was a great evening. He gave me insights into the Yankees I had only seen on TV. One of the statements he made that really surprised me was about Roger Maris.

He said that it was a well-known fact (among the players) that Roger Maris was the best outfielder in baseball.

I was shocked because in my APBA baseball game he was only a "2." LOL


Dave

[cj's dad]

From DS,-"He said that it was a well-known fact (among the players) that Roger Maris was the best outfielder in baseball"

.IMO rightfielders are almost always the best OF's on a pro team. Strangely enough in little league they are usually the worst because most young kids don't hit the ball to right field.

I disagree that RM was the best at that time.

10 to remember, an all time list:

Ruth
Williams
Clemente
Musial
Kaline
F Robinson
Aaron
R Jackson
Pete Rose

Maris was a cut below these but still very, very good.

BTW- in the 64 season, the O's traded for right fielder Willie Kirkland from the Indians. Willie was a journeyman player noted for his great arm. I witnessed him, during warm ups throw a strike from the base of the right field wall below the 309' marker to home plate on a fly. low trajectory also. Never seen anything like it since.

[Stillriledup]

In 1980, Al Downing had dinner at my home in Anaheim. (I met him at Santa Anita and brought him home for dinner.)

That evening, Al wanted to talk about nothing but what a good hitter he was. LOL

It was a great evening. He gave me insights into the Yankees I had only seen on TV. One of the statements he made that really surprised me was about Roger Maris.

He said that it was a well-known fact (among the players) that Roger Maris was the best outfielder in baseball.

I was shocked because in my APBA baseball game he was only a "2." LOL


Dave

That's awesome, Downing is etched in baseball history for giving up the Aaron HR in 1974. Al in his 70s now, you still keep in touch with him?

[Marshall Bennett]

Mantle broke his leg chasing down a fly ball in center I believe. I remember the picture in the paper of them taking him off on a stretcher.
Maris once caught a fly ball against the short fence in right, fell over it backwards, and reappeared holding the ball in his left hand. He was an outstanding fielder.
Downing's claim to fame is giving up Aaron's record homer, but he was also an above-average left handed pitcher. He led the Yankee's staff with strikeouts on at least 1 occasion.
I'd rank Maris among the best simply for setting the home-run record (which as far as I'm concerned still stands) and his contribution as an outstanding outfielder. He was a major part of the Yankee's going to at least 4 world series.

[Valuist]

In 1980, Al Downing had dinner at my home in Anaheim. (I met him at Santa Anita and brought him home for dinner.)

That evening, Al wanted to talk about nothing but what a good hitter he was. LOL

It was a great evening. He gave me insights into the Yankees I had only seen on TV. One of the statements he made that really surprised me was about Roger Maris.

He said that it was a well-known fact (among the players) that Roger Maris was the best outfielder in baseball.

I was shocked because in my APBA baseball game he was only a "2." LOL


Dave

I remember playing APBA. I bet a number of here played either APBA or Strat-O-Matic. The next natural step was betting horses.

[Dave Schwartz]

I disagree that RM was the best at that time.

Curtis, and I agree with you. However, I get that it may have been different from within the dugout.

I had many opportunities to have lunch with the Yankees in the early 80s when I lived in Anaheim. I can tell you that Reggie (then playing with the Angels) was a laughing stock among them.

That's awesome, Downing is etched in baseball history for giving up the Aaron HR in 1974. Al in his 70s now, you still keep in touch with him?

SRU,

No. In fact, after leaving Anaheim in 1984, I lost contact with all of my baseball friends. And one of my boyhood friends (who played for the Yankees) won't even talk to me. We're still friends on Facebook but even my messages there go unanswered.

Al Downing taught me how to be a pitching coach. I actually met him at a sports medicine event and we struck up a friendship. He spent many hours teaching the kids I was coaching how to pitch and took the time to teach me how to teach.

Mantle broke his leg chasing down a fly ball in center I believe. I remember the picture in the paper of them taking him off on a stretcher.

Marshall, actually I believe he caught his cleat in the fence. Did not break his leg, but damaged a bunch of ligaments or tendons. I think it was in Baltimore. (Bet Crutis will know that.)

[Shemp Howard]

Mantle broke his leg chasing down a fly ball in center I believe. I remember the picture in the paper of them taking him off on a stretcher.
Maris once caught a fly ball against the short fence in right, fell over it backwards, and reappeared holding the ball in his left hand. He was an outstanding fielder.
Downing's claim to fame is giving up Aaron's record homer, but he was also an above-average left handed pitcher. He led the Yankee's staff with strikeouts on at least 1 occasion.
I'd rank Maris among the best simply for setting the home-run record (which as far as I'm concerned still stands) and his contribution as an outstanding outfielder. He was a major part of the Yankee's going to at least 4 world series.

Mantle didn't break his leg.

He sat out the last week of the season due to an abcessed hip.

He played in the 1961 Series agqainst the Redlegs and did nothing.

[Shemp Howard]

In 1980, Al Downing had dinner at my home in Anaheim. (I met him at Santa Anita and brought him home for dinner.)

That evening, Al wanted to talk about nothing but what a good hitter he was. LOL

It was a great evening. He gave me insights into the Yankees I had only seen on TV. One of the statements he made that really surprised me was about Roger Maris.

He said that it was a well-known fact (among the players) that Roger Maris was the best outfielder in baseball.

I was shocked because in my APBA baseball game he was only a "2." LOL


Dave


When Mickey went down, Roger immediatly took his spot in CF.

[Dave Schwartz]

He sat out the last week of the season due to an abcessed hip.

Yes! I recall that. I thought the injury in center field kept him out for weeks. A muscle injury is what I thought.


Found it!

SABR: Mickey Mantle (http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/61e4590a)


But on June 5, 1963, the injury curse struck Mantle again. In a game against the Orioles in Baltimore, Brooks Robinson hit a fly ball over Mantle’s head. Mickey chased the ball in its flight as it sailed toward the wall, jumped, and crashed into the chain-link fence as the ball sailed over the wall. As perhaps only Mickey Mantle could do, he hooked his cleats in the chain-link fence, and as his body hit the fence and ricocheted back, causing the front part of his foot to bend violently up and back. Mantle had broken a bone in his foot and was fitted with a knee-high plaster cast, within which he would remain imprisoned for more than a month, and which kept him out of 61 games.

[OTM Al]

The torn knee was in his first year I believe, catching a cleat in an outfield drain. I believe he was trying to pull off a catch Joe D was making in center in the World Series.

The abscess in 1961 was due to a "vitamin" shot. He was out or at least not effective a lot more than a week as he was ill before taking the shot. Missed 10 of last 12 games that year and only played in 2 WS games. The shot had some vitamins in it anyway....

1961 was a perfect season for Maris. He was never close to that level before or after. Didn't have 61 HRs the next two seasons combined. He was a good player that had one great year. No one would believe the production jump in this era.

[cj's dad]

Marshall, actually I believe he caught his cleat in the fence. Did not break his leg, but damaged a bunch of ligaments or tendons. I think it was in Baltimore. (Bet Crutis will know that.)



He did get injured here. I still think he did it in a drain . I know that JImmy Piersal also was seriously injured here and fur sure that one of the two did it in the drain.

The fans cheered as MM was carried off and the next day the NY press wrote that the fans were cheering because Mickey was injured. I know that myself and others sitting in right field at Memorial Stadium were paying respect to one of the best ever.

[dnlgfnk]

Interesting that within the top 22 years of the highest MLB HR/9 in history, the year 1961 sneaks in at #19, surrounded by recent and/or steroid era years...

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=1901&ind=0&team=0,ss&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=10,d

...The next "earliest" year is 1987 at #8 (McGuire's rookie year [49 hrs], Canseco's 3rd year...hmmm...Jose doing a bit of "mentoring"?

The year 1952 ranked #61 (coincidentally), but featured a duel in both leagues...

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1952/09/19/page/33/article/schedule-gives-sauer-edge-over-kiner-in-homer-race

...with Kiner and Sauer tying for the NL crown, and Larry Doby edging Luke Easter in the A.L.

'52 gets my vote.

[dnlgfnk]

By the way, I just started perusing the rest of the Trib...the more things change...

For a trip down nostalgia lane, page down for the agate type of Hawthorne info.

[reckless]

There was a guy I knew who was much older than I was but we had mutual friends. He was either a corporate lawyer or a big shot insurance exec, I forget now, but he was a part-time scout for the SF Giants. This would be in the middle-late 1970s.

We were talking about the 1962 world series, which was the first coming of age world series for me and my memory was very clear. I just casually said -- "I always thought Roger Maris was the most underrated player in baseball."

This guy smiled and said that Maris was (1) the best .260 hitter ever; (2) he was the best fielding right fielder he ever saw, and that includes Clemente; (3) the Cardinals wouldn't have won the pennant in 1968 without Maris.

If you Wiki 1962 World Series, there's the line scores of the seven games with a brief synopsis of each game. Maris personally figures in a few of them with his bat and in the field.

[TJDave]

1961 was a perfect season for Maris. He was never close to that level before or after. Didn't have 61 HRs the next two seasons combined. He was a good player that had one great year. No one would believe the production jump in this era.

They fed off each other. It certainly didn't hurt Maris that Mantle was on deck. I don't think he ever got walked.

[reckless]

Looking back on this, thanks to Curtis starting the thread, I came across something that I 'always knew' in general but found the info even harder to believe upon seeing it in a Wiki page just now.

Here was Maris shooting for the sacrosanct all-time season home run record held by Babe Ruth. The 1961 Yankees are arguably the greatest team of all time. Team has Maris, of course, and revered hall of famers Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford and Yogi Berra. Add top players like Bill Skowron, Ellie Howard, Johnny Blanchad, Ralph Terry, and more.

But, sadly, at Yankee Stadium on 10-1-61, the day Maris hit HR No. 61, a crowd (?) of just 23,154 attended this historic day and accomplishment.

Wow. :(

[FantasticDan]

But, sadly, at Yankee Stadium on 10-1-61, the day Maris hit HR No. 61, a crowd (?) of just 23,154 attended this historic day and accomplishment.

Wow. :(Just to add some perspective, the average home attendance for the 1961 Yankees was only 21,444.

[MutuelClerk]

Just proving no one cared about the Yankees 50 years ago either.

[OTM Al]

Just to add some perspective, the average home attendance for the 1961 Yankees was only 21,444.

And that was probably a really good total. They had 14k opening day and only 11k the first home Saturday. Goes to show the true golden age of baseball has been a lot more recent than many give credit for.

[cj's dad]

And that was probably a really good total. They had 14k opening day and only 11k the first home Saturday. Goes to show the true golden age of baseball has been a lot more recent than many give credit for.

I just refreshed my memory Al. RM jit #59 in the 154th game of the regular season vs Milt Pappas in front of 21,032 Baltimore fans. He had 2 more at bats to tie the Babe in a 164 game schedule.

Correct me if I am wrong nut I believe the Mick was such a darling boy of the press and Yank fans in general that they did not want RM to tie or break BR;s 60 HR record

[Dave Schwartz]

But, sadly, at Yankee Stadium on 10-1-61, the day Maris hit HR No. 61, a crowd (?) of just 23,154 attended this historic day and accomplishment.

What Curtis said.

A whole bunch of Yankee fans did not want Babe's record to be broken.

[reckless]

I just refreshed my memory Al. RM jit #59 in the 154th game of the regular season vs Milt Pappas in front of 21,032 Baltimore fans. He had 2 more at bats to tie the Babe in a 164 game schedule.

Correct me if I am wrong nut I believe the Mick was such a darling boy of the press and Yank fans in general that they did not want RM to tie or break BR;s 60 HR record

Curtis, up to the run for the Babe's home run record, Mantle was often booed and vilified by the Noo Yawkers. Yes, he wasn't popular by 1961, partly because Stengel often made a reference the Mantle was capable of producing more than he showed and was underachieving, so to speak.

There were also some contract hold outs for a few of those few years and many people felt Mantle was overpaid at a time when a $10-15,000/year salary was few and far between; he earned close or near to $100,000.

That all changed by the middle of the 1961 season when Roger and Mick were hitting HRs daily and having a legit shot at topping The Babe's mark.

Roger was hated by the media because he was a no-nonsense guy who bristled at some of the silly questions posed by the media. I read they called him a hard ass and red neck (maybe not in those exact words but close enough). Plus he was a Yankee only 2-3 years in 1961 where The Mick was a home grown long time New York Yankee.

[reckless]

Just to add some perspective, the average home attendance for the 1961 Yankees was only 21,444.

I 'came of age' in 1962-63 but I remember 1961 a little, mostly because I grew up near Yankee Stadium, and of course, the run at Ruth's HR record.

When my dad took me and my brother to the games in 1962-63, I remember bleacher seats costing just 90 cents; top level grandstand seats were $1.10; reserve seats were $2.50.

I don't remember nor knew the box seat costs because we never sat in field level box seats. :)

I imagine the attendance figures are available for each team but I am willing to bet most teams did not draw a million fans in the early 1960s.

I do recall as I got a bit older that the NY Mets regularly outdrew the Yankees, despite very bad teams and well before the Miracle of '69. Mets fans then were all old Dodgers and Giants fans that would never cheer for the Yanks under any circumstance.

[reckless]

What Curtis said.

[B]A whole bunch of Yankee fans did not want Babe's record to be broken./B]

So true, Dave. If my dad were alive today, he'd be 98 years old. He told me many times that he saw Ruth play and all those guys he called "Moidererrs Row". :) (And he did sound like that in real life.)