Well Secretariat never did that...

[JPinMaryland]

...did he? I have never seen a Preakness like that. Surely there have been other monster TC performances.

[cj]

He certainly did that and more in the Belmont. Secretariat's Preakness he made a HUGE move to take command, but not the huge margin of victory. Many consider it the most eye popping move to command in history, similiar to Azeri in the BC Juvenile.

[JimG]

I am a huge fan (now) of Smarty Jones. But he is no Secretariat. He may be Seattle Slew though...and that would be good enough for an overdue Triple Crown Winner.

The move Secretariat made on the backstretch at the Preakness in 1973 still gives me chills when I see a replay. 2nd only to Big Red's run in the stretch in The Belmont Stakes (see Avatar to the left).

Jim

[JPinMaryland]

he didnt win the Preakness by 12 lengths did he?

[cj]

Funny Cide won the Preakness by 10 or so. He wasn't a Secratariat. Margin of victory can fool you, but in this case, I don't think it did.

[Richard]

For reasons I posted 2 weeks ago,I happily repeat:"Go Team SJ,Go!".

[SAL]

I think the 10 million is in the bag.....

[Binder]

I just got home from the Meadowlands and listened to a replay of
Davy Johnsons' call on ESPN

He did a great job
with his trademark " And down the stretch they come
and Its Smarty Jones just drawing away "He's winning by a
colossal margin "
It just sent chills down my spine
Just as the the Secretariat call of "And he's moving like a Tremendous Machine " always does

This Is unreal
It seams like a dream

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=22483


Go SMARTY GO!!!!!
:)

[penguinfan]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
Funny Cide won the Preakness by 10 or so. He wasn't a Secratariat. Margin of victory can fool you, but in this case, I don't think it did.

Exactly.

[JustRalph]

reminds me very much of last years Preakness.....although I think Smarty wants another mile or so......... I think Servis is right..........this horse gets angry..........He sure looks like is rounded out now too.........after 8 straight wins?

[Tom]

I think SJ has just been sprinting. Wait until they stretch him out.:eek:

[Kappa]

I guess we are getting new respect for Phila Park shippers :D

[BetHorses!]

Stop insulting Secretariat. The time was 1:55 and change

[sq764]

Bethorses, didn't Secretariat go 1:54 and change? Sure, a second is a second, but to me it looked like Elliot totally shut the engines off down the lane..

[BetHorses!]

Sq

Stop it.

I am rooting for him and its great for the game but comparing him to Secretariat is crazy.

And what about Affirmed and Seattle Slew? he's better than them also so you just pass them over and talk about Secretariat

cmon--- I know its exciting but lets get control of our emotions

[Secretariat]

Pace of Smarty Jones Prakness:

23.65 – 47.32 – 111.53 – 136.44 – 155.59

Secretariat’s controversial electronic time by Pimlico clock was 1:55

The DRF put the time at 153.2/5. Quite a difference.

"Although the teletimer at Pimlico clocked Secretariat at 1:55, the Daily Racing Form disagreed. According to their watches, Secretariat had run the mile and three-sixteenths in 1:53 2/5. Therefore, according to the Form, Secretariat had broken the stakes record. CBS television agreed, and at a Maryland State Racing Commission hearing, CBS played the videotapes of Secretariat's Preakness and Canonero II's Preakness simultaneously, proving Secretariat's was faster. Despite the evidence, the time recorded by Pimlico's faulty teletimer was allowed to stand, but the Daily Racing Form boldly entered the time of 1:53 2/5 in their permanent records."

The interesting thing was the fractions of the six furlong and mile portion of the Secretariat race were considerably faster, and since Sham and Secretariat were pulling away from the rest of the Preakness field I don't think they both were slowing down considerably. Steve Roman the famous breeding writer has also confirmed the beleif in the 153 2/5th time on his web stie as well.

Regardless, even on the slower controversial time Secretariat beats Smarty Jones by four lengths. But hey, I like Smarty Jones. It'll be fun to see him run against THe Cliffs Edge in the Belmont and perhaps a foreign horse. I hope he wins the Triple Crown, racing could use it and the horse is a great story.
111.2/5th – 135.3/5th

[kenwoodallpromos]

I think it would take a Victory Gallop to beat SJ in the Belmont.

[PaceAdvantage]

You can't compare the times without an accurate variant. 30+ years have gone by since Secretariat won the Preakness. Unless you have accurate variants, comparing the final times of two races 30+ years apart is as useful as trying to drive a nail with a baloney sandwich.

[JPinMaryland]

I am just getting back to looking at the race, they ran a rather deliberate pace in 47 2/5 and 1:11 2/5. I realize the track was slow,at least I know yesterday they ran the Blackeyed Sue in a time not seen since 1937. I saw two races earlier and I know they were slow. So....

I dunno what the final fractions are but Smarty must have run blistering final fractions, in this case? I'm sure Sec.'s race was equally impressive but todays' performance is just as good in a different way. To press the leader and then run an impressive final fractions, that's what Smarty did, Sec. has more that blazing tactical speed, I have no idea what would happen if those two were to hook up but I could see Smarty forcing him wide in a way he did to Imperialism on the first turn and Lion on the final...

Does anyone want to suggest what his Beyer will be? I am guessing record...

But which? Stakes Record Beyer? TC series Beyer?

[ceejay]

Smarty's Preakenss was a tremendous performance! Better than Big Red's? I don't know, but I think that Sham was a better horse than any of the others this year. We'll see on Belmont Day: I'd be shocked if the 2:24 12F is beat, but why do we need to compare Smarty and Secretariat?

I give SJ a better chance of winning the Belmont than FC or the other recent 4 attempts. FC won the Preakness by 10, but Peace Rules did not fire and the rest of the runners were not the division's best. Except for The Cliffs Edge, this year's Preakenss had the best 3 yo's around IMO. Not only that, Smarty is clearly far better than the others. But, racing is racing and anything can happen.....

[sq764]

Bethorses, I am not comparing him to Secretariat.. You brought up times, that is all I was referencing..

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
You can't compare the times without an accurate variant. 30+ years have gone by since Secretariat won the Preakness. Unless you have accurate variants, comparing the final times of two races 30+ years apart is as useful as trying to drive a nail with a baloney sandwich.

Damn....no wonder my Deck keeps falling apart!

or how about this....one..........

" so, my ex wife made you one of her Big Hammer Baloney samiches? "

I can't wait until Tom reads this one.........

[Speed Figure]

He should get about a 116. I love the fact that he did it very easy. I only hope he's not lone speed in the belmont.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Speed Figure

He should get about a 116. I love the fact that he did it very easy. I only hope he's not lone speed in the belmont.

I don't know if that will hurt him at all........he seems like he can push the button whenever..........make him lone speed and give him the chance to set some soft fractions and he might turn the corner and drive off like today..........

[JPinMaryland]

Well it looks like he ran the final furlough in 12.7 which I guess is pretty fast but maybe not as fast as Big Red. I dunno I am still trying to look this up. Does anyone have some examples of very fast closing fractions in Preakness or another TC just to compare?

I think it's definitely time to compare him to Sec. or any other horse. For one thing, his margins of victory and the manner of victory have been very impressive. He seems to be getting better and better each race.

His time today once it is adjusted for track conditions may prove to be impressive.

For another thing he is undefeated and so there's a valid comparison w/ Secretartiat or any other horse right there. To be undefeated this far into the racing season only Majestic Prince, Seattle Slew and now Smarty. Again just another aspect but you have to wonder how many factors do you have to look at before you start to ask these questions.

But I think even more important than that is the way he's been doing it. He ran both Lion Hart and Imperialism into the ground, at least that's how it looked. What impresses me, is that he has a great closing kick from a horse that is on or just off the pace, that's a very nice combination to have. It could certainly stand him in good stead in many races against a great many horses.

[Buckeye]

They have both shown the ability to make multiple "moves" in the same race, a talent which leads to devastating results for those they oppose. In this way, they are comparable.

[BillW]

ESPN is reporting this margin as a record for Preakness.

http://espn.go.com/horse/triplecrown04/s/2004/0515/1802359.html

Previous record set in 1st Preakness.

Good for SJ

Bill

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
You can't compare the times without an accurate variant. 30+ years have gone by since Secretariat won the Preakness. Unless you have accurate variants, comparing the final times of two races 30+ years apart is as useful as trying to drive a nail with a baloney sandwich.

We have the Beyers for both races....or will have by Monday. Did Beyer reveal the Derby and Preakness numbers for Big Red in one of his books? Good Question for the Belmont Beyer chat on DRF if the have one.

[JPinMaryland]

Servis had goose bumps? My eyes were welling up when I saw how much he was going to win by.

[plainolebill]

Originally posted by Tom
We have the Beyers for both races....or will have by Monday. Did Beyer reveal the Derby and Preakness numbers for Big Red in one of his books? Good Question for the Belmont Beyer chat on DRF if the have one.

I think Beyer made the figures for Secretariat's Triple Crown races well after the fact, not that I'm saying they weren't fast!

I guess if Gary Stevens can compare SJ to Secretariat its good enough for me. I hope Smarty smokes em' in the Belmont. When Secretariat won, I tried to beat him in every leg and couldn't even enjoy the history making events I was watching.

[cj]

I don't think comparing him to Secratariat is a bad thing. Do I think he is that good? No. But, he has yet to lose! Sec lost his debut, lost the Wood, and lost later to Onion and another whose name is avoiding me right now.

You just never know how good a horse is if he hasn't lost. He may be better than Secratariat. I know to some that is blasphemy, but I think it is possible. I sure don't mind someone talking about it though.

Personally, I think Seattle Slew was better than Secratariat, but what do I know?

[cj]

Originally posted by Secretariat
...Regardless, even on the slower controversial time Secretariat beats Smarty Jones by four lengths...

Raw time means ZERO when judging a horse's performance. I wish I was doing numbers back in the 70s. I remember Andy Beyer gave Secretariat a low 130s number for the Belmont, but I've never seen the KD or Preakness numbers.

[cj]

Originally posted by JPinMaryland

Does anyone want to suggest what his Beyer will be? I am guessing record...



Went over the card trying to get a speed figure. I think the Beyer boys will go around 119. I always knock around 5 off of 9.5f races at Pimlico because I think their chart is off by that much. All the Pimlico races at that distance tend to prove me out over time. So, I'm giving Smarty a 114. For that track, the pace was not slow. I have the race figures as 118-114. It tells me Smarty improved again, while Rock Hard Ten, Eddington, Imperialism, and Lion Heart all ran about the same races they have been running on my numbers.

[OverlayHunter]

Beyer "improvised" Big Red's Belmont fig at 139.

See page 4 at this link:
http://www.drf.com/row/fan_ed/winning-techniques-2003.pdf

[Tom]

I am pretty sure Beyer made the Belmont number in real time-wrote about how the number put the margin of victory into real persepective for him. But at that time, his numbers were on a different scale than today's, so a 139 is probably becasue of that.
Speaking of Big Red, here is a nice site to spent some time browsing:

http://www.secretariat.com/past_performance.htm

[blind squirrel]

BEYER for PREAKNESS....118.....heard this on JAY PRIVMAN
radio show

[Tom]

Originally posted by blind squirrel
BEYER for PREAKNESS....118.....heard this on JAY PRIVMAN
radio show

Is that show on the net?

[blind squirrel]

1540 AM LA.....1100AM EASTERN

[headhawg]

Not to take anything away from SJ, but this still seems to be a very weak crop of three year olds. How would the "saged" horseplayers on this board rate the competition when Secretariat and Seattle Slew ran?

It seems to me that horses with championship blood are being purchased and moved out of the U.S. (for a while now), and that the quality of breeding has diminished here.

[kenwoodallpromos]

a website says Secretariat ran the Belmont in 2:24- exactly 12 seconds per furlong. SJ has run close to that in the last 3, but not at 1 1/2 miles. He will have to not slow down.

[Speed Figure]

These are my figures from the race.
Preakness S. G1 Pim
1C 2C LF SF PR
07 Samrty Jones 99 113 105 115 125
10 Rock Hard Ten 90 106 91 103 115
09 Eddington 94 104 89 101 110
Race Figures 104 115 105 115

[cj]

Damn, I'm getting pretty good at this Beyer thing, maybe I can get a job with the boys...LOL :)

I was off by 1 in the Preakness and Derby, and that's because I used hundreths and not fifths.

[cj]

I believe the only other great horse from Secretariat's crop was Forego, and he didn't blossom until later in his career. Seattle Slew really didn't have any competition, his biggest hurdle was his management team. Of course Affirmed had Alydar, and Spectacular Bid had noone. Superstars tend to make the crop look weak. The Sea Hero year, that was WEAK!

[Speed Figure]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
Damn, I'm getting pretty good at this Beyer thing, maybe I can get a job with the boys...LOL :)

I was off by 1 in the Preakness and Derby, and that's because I used hundreths and not fifths.

If we were on the price is right you would lose. You went 1 over. I was 2 under so I would win. :)

[cj]

On Jeopardy I would have lost too...should have said "What is 118?" :p

[JPinMaryland]

But at horseshoes you would have won, CJ. And I have to say that Horseshoes trumps Price is Right on this board. Nice guess, how do you do that?

Speed Fig. Q: What do those numbers mean? Sorry I am not up on these things. Q: does it adjust for track? which I guess it does. Q: can you crunch the same numbers for other famous horse e.g. Secretariat's Preakness?

Looking at some old notes, Sec. ran some humongous final fractions, I guess at Belmont he ran the final 1/4 in 24.

I dont think Smarty was running a 12 sec. final furlough, but if we were able to adjust for yesterdays track conditions it might be comparable. I dont know about his other races.

How much of a track variant was it yesterday? Do you hard core handicappers have a variant in real time?

[cj]

I've studied the Beyers for a long, long time. I'm really not trying to be a smartass when I say I probably know as much about making them as any member of his staff. (Too bad Andy doesn't use them for his selections!)

I couldn't do the numbers for back in Secretariat's day. I wouldn't know the relative track speeds back then, nor have the charts for the whole day, or even know how good the other horses might have been expected to run. Pimlico was a much different surface in the 70s than it is today.

As far as raw times go, there is some interesting reading on the Thorograph site regarding the overall speed of racetracks today. Most experts agree today's surfaces are much slower than those of the 70s due to a higher content of sand in the dirt. I'm not a big TG number guy, but I think this research is pretty solid.

Check out this page:

http://www.thorograph.com/archive/index.php

The articles are Are Racehorses Getting Faster Parts 1, 1a, and 2. (Dutrow will probably scratch the 1a :D)


By the way, the harness guys will love these articles!

[Hosshead]

Originally posted by Tom
Speaking of Big Red, here is a nice site to spent some time browsing:

http://www.secretariat.com/past_performance.htm [/B]

Thanks for the link Tom. Something I learned on this site: I did not know that the rail is held up by support standards that are exactly 1 LENGTH APART . Which they used to calculate Big Red's margin of victory in the Belmont.

[Latin Qtr]

I went to the Thorograh site & I looked at yesterdays picks at
belmont and the Preakness & it had EVERY race wrong. He
predicted that SJ would collapse from all his past races.

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by Hosshead
Thanks for the link Tom. Something I learned on this site: I did not know that the rail is held up by support standards that are exactly 1 LENGTH APART . Which they used to calculate Big Red's margin of victory in the Belmont.

I knew that, but I've never been able to find out just what distance that is. Is it 10 feet?

[cj]

If its 10 feet, its not a length for most horses.

[plainolebill]

As far as Secretariat's crop goes I'd have to say the Sham was no slouch. He might have been top of the heap in most other years. Secretariat ruined him, never raced again after the Belmont.

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by Latin Qtr
I went to the Thorograh site & I looked at yesterdays picks at
belmont and the Preakness & it had EVERY race wrong. He
predicted that SJ would collapse from all his past races.

This should come as no surprise. They make their money giving advice. If they knew anything they'd be betting their own selections instead of publishing garbage. Caveat emptor

NDJ

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
If its 10 feet, its not a length for most horses.

Do you happen to know the exact on center distance between the support standards? Is this the same at all tracks?

NDJ

[thelyingthief]

Secretariat was a great horse. how many horses have not only dominated the triple crown, but set track and world records in the running? Man of war was a great horse. then you start getting to the lesser but very fine, the citations, the sea biscuits, the alydars and seattle slews. but smarty jones? his final time in both the KD and the P runnings have been scarcely better than lethargic. let me repeat that: L-E-T-H-A-R-G-I-C. if he wins the belmont, he will receive accolades that are perhaps less warranted than they are wishful. as with so much of what was once the back bone of American life, so it has been with horseracing. in a mad pursuit of the god almighty buck, kentucky sold most of its regal bloodstock to foreign concerns in the 80's and 90's and now we race-goers must endure the sight of a once true crown upon the head of a false prince in this smarty jones; just as it's been with america itself, who has squandered its past in a modern banality of very bad music, very bad film, very bad politics and an unfathomably stupid array of selfish indulgences from drugs to licentiousness--but then, what's the use of saying anything? creatures that pretend such tattooed trollops and cowards that have arisen in the place of their better fathers have their muscle and high spirit will believe anything they wish to believe. men compare pygmies to giants when they discuss the kennedys, the bushes, and the reagans of a dying people in the same breath with the washingtons, the jacksons, and the lincolns of a growing one, and moreover have the gall to censure the wise who arise to question it. so, i think this smarty jones frenzy is the same kind of self delusion--extended to a -- what was that, a pennsylvania born?!!! --as if it were a secretariat, when it is in fact merely much better than the other three legged beasts it has thus far humbled. personally, i wish secretariat had never raced, so excellent he was, in order that i would not have to endure the outrage of this comparison.

no wonder i win so much money.
:-}

[JPinMaryland]

Ewwwww, waaaaa-ewwwww; have another hit.

[thelyingthief]

to understand the difference between a great horse and a good one, mull this:

Man o' War's last race was against Sir Barton, who in 1919 had become the first to win the Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont. Like most match races, it was hardly competitive. At Kenilworth Park, in Windsor, Ontario, Man o' War won the $75,000 purse and $5,000 Gold Cup by defeating the older Canadian-owned horse by seven lengths.

this would be the undoubted outcome if mister smartypants met any of the monsters of the past...

[Secretariat]

I noticed that both Secretariat and Smarty Jones ran on a 13 DRF-Track Variant. Now in today's world the DRF variant was based on three year bests at the distances, but in Secretariat day's it was based on Track Records.

So Secretariat's 98-13 (or 103-13 if you accept the DRF clockers time) was based off the Track Record at the time.

And Smarty Jones 100-13 was based on Three Year Bests.

Haven't tried to equate these yet to the same standard, but it seems like it would be possible to compare the two variants. Seems it would slow Smarty's speed considerably but up the variant.

[JPinMaryland]

Thanks for the links above!

Can we get a track variant for yesterdays' race in terms of a real time figure?

Looking at Sec. PPs; it looks like both he and Smarty ran the last 3/16 in about 19 seconds. Not bad. Smarty did his over a slower track, so I think they are comparable.

Now all he needs to do is run a 2:24 1 1/2 and he'll be all set.

[Secretariat]

Secretariat - Preakness 98-13 (or DRF version is (103-13)
(48.1-111.2-135.3-154.2) – Pimlico Timer (malfunction issue)
(48.1-111.2-135.3-153.2) – Pimlico DRF clockers

Smarty - Preakness 100-13
(47.1-111.2-136.2-155.2) – Pimlico times

The Track Record on Secretariat’s day was 154.0

This would give Smarty a SR of 88 versus Secretariat’s 98 (or 103 if you use the DRF clocking) based on the Track Record.

Smarty equaled the three year best at Pimlico with his 155.2 (13 off of that three year best is the average variant for Smarty's Preakness day or 158.0). To convert approximately to the Track Record variant would be 154 to 158 or a variant of 4 seconds or a variant of 20.

So using Track Records here’s my take of the comparision of the Secretariat-Smarty Preakness performance.

Secretariat Preakness = 98-13 (or a 103-13 if you accept the DRF clocker time)

Smarty Jones Preakness = 88-20

Total of DRF SR+TV
Secretariat=111 or 116
Smarty Jones=108

Using the Brohamer TV adjustment in his MPH
Secretariat = 96.5
Smarty = 89

Looking at the fractions in lieu of the 13 to 20 variant shows Smarty ran against a quicker pace of race except for the third and fourth fractions where Secretariat accelerated beyond belief.

[Speed Figure]

I can't see how he gets a 100 speed rating. He ran 1:55.2/5. Funny Cide ran 1:55.3/5. and got a 95. Why is he getting a xtra 5 pts.

[Secretariat]

It's based on Three Year Bests at the track, not Track Record.

[Speed Figure]

Originally posted by JPinMaryland
But at horseshoes you would have won, CJ. And I have to say that Horseshoes trumps Price is Right on this board. Nice guess, how do you do that?

Speed Fig. Q: What do those numbers mean? Sorry I am not up on these things. Q: does it adjust for track? which I guess it does. Q: can you crunch the same numbers for other famous horse e.g. Secretariat's Preakness?

Looking at some old notes, Sec. ran some humongous final fractions, I guess at Belmont he ran the final 1/4 in 24.

I dont think Smarty was running a 12 sec. final furlough, but if we were able to adjust for yesterdays track conditions it might be comparable. I dont know about his other races.

How much of a track variant was it yesterday? Do you hard core handicappers have a variant in real time?

1C is the 1st call pace rating. 2C is the 2nd call pace rating. LF is the last fraction pace rating. SF is the speed figure for the final time. PR is the performance rating for each horse.

[Secretariat]

Since Secretariat ran on a 13 track and my estimates show a 20 variant for Smarty, and accounting a 2/1 for length variant, here are my estimated fraction breakdown accounting for lengths behind for Smarty as well.

Secretariat
48.1 - 111.2 - 135.3 - 154.2 (Pimlico timer)
48.1 - 111.2 - 135.3 - 153.2 (DRF clockers and CBS)

Smarty (adjusted for lengths and a 3.5 variant -(20-13)/2)
47.3 - 111.1 - 135.4 - 154.35

Looking at the fractions, it would have been a wonderful match race, especially that third fraction and stretch run.

[Speed Figure]

Originally posted by Secretariat
It's based on Three Year Bests at the track, not Track Record.

I know that it's based on the 3 year best time. I do make "My Own Numbers" What i'm saying is, if the 3 year best time is 1:54.3/5 How is his speed rating 100. It should be 96 not 100.

[sjk]

Who ran 1:54.3? Golden Missile did but that was in 2000.

[Speed Figure]

Golden Missile went 1:56 on a gd track. Silver Charm went 1:54.4/5. This 3 year best time could have come from the Pimlico Special.

[sjk]

I just watched the replay again.

Making pars for 1 3/16 miles at Pim is chancy since they only run it twice a year.

Numbers aside, he is a very athletic looking animal. I can't imagine being more impressed .

[Valuist]

Ok, if we're not going to insult Secretariat by mentioning Smarty Jones in the same breath, let's not compare Smarty to Funny Cide, who beat a horse coming out of a NW2X!

[Lance]

thelyingthief,

Your long reply on page four is the funniest thing I have ever read on this board. Thank you.

[BetHorses!]

thelyingthief is my new idol (see page 4 of this thread)

[thelyingthief]

thelyingthief tips his hat to the gallery....;-|~

[Buckeye]

"I knew Secretariat, Secretariat was a friend of mine, and Smarty Jones, you are no Secretariat"

There-- they are both mentioned in the same sentence.

It is generally agreed that Secretariat did not exceed or even equal his accomplishments on the racetrack with his record as a sire of runners. It is also true that Smarty Jones is by Elusive Quality by Gone West out of a Secretariat mare. I am not willing to dismiss the possibility that this Chestnut colt some have called "Smarty Pants" is not in fact that very runner we have been expecting.

[kenwoodallpromos]

So the better SJ does in the Belmont, the better Secretariat's siring looks? OK by me.

[Exactaman]

By the way, the harness guys will love these articles!

Thanks CJ, interesting. harness has seen continued equipment improvements--mostly with the sulky--over the past 40 years, and that has contributed greatly to the faster times. the new equipment has made speed more of a factor, and breeding has pointed more and more in that direction as a result. it's generally accepted that the standardbred horse of today is a significantly faster animal than that of thirty years ago, and there are few multiple heat endurance races these days. i've always figured that since the standardbred was traditionally bred as much for endurance and reliability as speed, there 's a lot more room for improvement in breeding on the speed side than with the thoroughbreds, who have been bred in that direction for God knows how long.

[JustRalph]

I remember watching my Dad and his buddies marveling at 1:59 harness races. I remember when "Nero" came to town and half the plant where my Dad worked went to Scioto downs to see him run. He ran a 1:57 and they all howled about it for weeks........ I believe it was 1:57.......doing this from memory. Harness racing sure has changed from back then..........

[delayjf]

I believe "Beyer said that big red ran figures regularly in the 120s. I've seen it somewhere where either Quinn or somebody else made figures for all the top horses. Just can't remember where I saw that.

[BillW]

A few things that Secretariat and peers did do.

Secretariate raced at AP 21 days after the Belmont and won by 9 lengths in the Arlington Invitational. Riva Ridge also raced 21 days after the Belmont and won the Hollywood Derby by a neck. Slew ran 22 days after although getting beat bad in the Swaps.

Ahhh, they just don't make them like they used to.

Bill

[maxwell]

I think Beyer gave Big Red a 136 for the Belmont. I've never seen anything like that race ... except for the move he put on the field in the Preakness :)

[Lance]

Delayjf: I think this is the Beyer quotation you are thinking of:

"I bristled every time [Seattle Slew] was compared with Secretariat, who routinely ran figures of 129 and would have blown Seattle Slew off the track on any day of their lives."

It is from page 66 of 50,000 year at races. Seattle Slew went into the Preakness with a best lifetime Beyer of 115, though, in fairness, he had run three races in which Beyer had made no figure for his race. One man can cover only so much ground.

Quinn made figures for top horses in "Thoroughbred Handicapping," pages 206 and 207. Old book, old horses. He had Secretariat tied with Damascus, Bold Ruler, and Gun Bow for highest top figure.

He claims to have adjusted for track speed and inflation. I'm sure he tried, but the idea that he could be accurate is hilarious. The task is impossible. But looking at this stuff can be fun.

[Lance]

That should be Quirin, not Quinn. I'm sorry.

[JPinMaryland]

The only ability Smarty Jones has not been tested on is coming back from adversity. We think Seattle Slew had it, not sure about Secretariat. I hope they race Smarty in the fall and as a 4 year old. It would be interesting to see what he can do as a handicapper. Do you think his connections will allow that?

[Bobby]

If SJ wins, he might run 2 or 3 more races. If he loses, then maybe 2 or 3 races. he's going to be just like the rest of them and retire early for big $

[Speed Figure]

Originally posted by Bobby
If SJ wins, he might run 2 or 3 more races. If he loses, then maybe 2 or 3 races.

What!

[Bobby]

well, he might run in that big race over in saudi, but then some japenese guy really will give the owners a blank check. Probably by 20, he'll be like ferdinand.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by thelyingthief
but smarty jones? his final time in both the KD and the P runnings have been scarcely better than lethargic. let me repeat that: L-E-T-H-A-R-G-I-C.


Huh? 118 ain't lethargic. 'Nuff said.

[delayjf]

Lots of talk here comparing Sec and Smarty's final fractions in the Preakness. Keep in mind that Sec ran his final fractions AFTER making that wide spectacular run around the first turn, against the so called inside bias.

Lance,
Thanks, I do recall readin that in Beyers book, but there was another book that did list Beyers on almost all the most recent great horses, just can't remember where I saw it.

[wire2wire]

GO SMARTY!
another chestnut in a white bridle, blue & white silks and a country at war....

I'll be by the walking ring at Belmont cheering him on!

[thelyingthief]

nor is it, as i implied, spectacular. my figures gives the race a 115, not at all historical in import. when i say lethargic, mr. PA, i mean lethargic for a G1 classic winner passionately proclaimed the second coming of jesus horse christ. and referencing the horrendously slow KD, let me repeat, L-E-T-H-A-R-G-I-C.

[PaceAdvantage]

When is the last time a 3yo ran that fast in a classic race this early? Silver Charm?

You're tough to please.

[cj]

Whenever someone starts talking about raw times, I tune out their post. They know nothing of measuring a horse's performance.

[JPinMaryland]

"....nor is it, as i implied, spectacular. my figures gives the race a 115..."

Well what does that mean anyhow? Beyer obviously considers the race historical since it's tied for the highest Beyer number for Preakness since they started that business.

So are you numbers more accurate than Beyer's? There's no way to tell unless you explain your your methodology? Until you explain your methodology your making the race a 115 is meaningless.

I make it a 10. What the hell does that mean?

[JPinMaryland]

Oh and a 2:02 Preakness for Citation? Gawd, I'd love to see the Beyer figure for that one.

[cj]

The track was listed as "heavy" for that day. I'm sure his "Beyer" would have been great.

[thelyingthief]

you're precisely correct, gentlemen, secretariat never did that...

(that snickering you hear in the background, is it, could it be.. moi?)

[thelyingthief]

oh and:

and in fact, though the baby jesus was finally adult-ed up as a silly carpenter and pinned to a tree, he was the son of god, and did not die.

read: actually, smartyjones was the greatest horse that ever lived, and though he was a slow horse, he was the fastest that ever runned, and while he got beat, he was the bestest and in truth a mighty son of the great equine spirit in the sky and shoot, how did this ever happen?

it was them fractions, they did the evil thing to smartyjones the divinest and holiest horse of all time, and gee, philadelphia is awful sorry things turned out the way they did, and can we run this race again, and maybe beyer can give us another inflated figure to compensate for the horrible end of this here delightful fairy tale, and shoot gosh darn, and shucks, that Secretariat is a piece of donkey do-do, and "did he ever do this, like the wonderfullest smarty did?", and dang, i'm so frigging smart i know that horse is the number one boned horse of all horses ever, and what happened, and all my money got burned up in the exactas i bet, and the triples i singled, and i never believed he was so slow, no siree, it was the track variant, not them slow horsies that he went running with, and if i was a grain of mustard seed, i might be blind to it enough to have faith anyhow.

amen.

did you know that Secretariat's heart weighed 22lbs? that's twice the size of your typical smartyjones' heart; which is my way of saying, that was a great, great beast you boneheads have been insulting now for weeks. heart, gentlemen, heart. i'm very happy the truth is out. very happy indeed.

oh, and let me repeat that: LETHARGIC.

and whenever someone inflates an acheivement with reference to variant, mr. milkowski, i wonder how much money i'll be taking from 'em in the mutuels ere long...

[cj]

You didn't take any of my money, because I didn't bet the race. I would never base a bet on speed figures that were earned at distances from 2 to 3 furlongs shorter. Just like I wouldn't bet a horse going a mile because he earned a big figure going 5 1/2.

So gloat all you want, if you continue to bet looking at raw times, you will lose. By the way, why post the same thing three places? Pretty silly.

Why are you singling me out? I cleary said in this very thread that I didn't think Smarty was any Secretariat. I just said that using raw times was not a good way to judge that. Doing that means Monarchos was the second greatest t-bred ever. Nuff said...

Sometimes you luck into the right answer. Congrats, and have a nice day.

[thelyingthief]

and i quote: "Whenever someone starts talking about raw times, I tune out their post. They know nothing of measuring a horse's performance." i measure the performance of horses extraordinarily well, thanks, and always with reference to raw times. massaged times are the stuff apparently, in Smarty's case, that handicapper's dreams are made of...

your sarcasm was patent, and dismissary. 227.1 for the winner in the belmont?!: when the raw figures are repeatedly low, figures that demonstrate exuberance are to be discounted.
224 for secretariat: that's 16-17 lengths better than smartyjones.

[cj]

So, all this helped you come up with Birdstone how? I don't recall him burning up any tracks either. You could have timed him with an hourglass.

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
So, all this helped you come up with Birdstone how? I don't recall him burning up any tracks either. You could have timed him with an hourglass.

Hourglass or not, he still won and that's all that counts. This horse has been beaten to death. Give us a break already. It's a done deal.

NDJ

[Latin Qtr]

Hooray BIRDSTONE .... a job well done.

[Buckeye]

What "job" was that? What exactly did he accomplish to deserve a 'hooray'? Do you also approve of the tactics employed by the spoilers? Do you approve of the tactics? That's a deliberate repeat of the question. I'm not blaming Birdstone for what happened, but do you understand the reason he won and do you feel at ease cheering Hooray? Think about it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey wise asses, Secretariat lost to ONION, ANGLE LIGHT and PROVE OUT!!!

Smarty has only lost to Birdstone. He's still got your boy beat, doesn't he?? LOL

Oh yeah, he lost to HERBULL too....plus he was DQd once.

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Hey wise asses, Secretariat lost to ONION, ANGLE LIGHT and PROVE OUT!!!

Smarty has only lost to Birdstone. He's still got your boy beat, doesn't he?? LOL

Oh yeah, he lost to HERBULL too....plus he was DQd once.

I can accept being brought b to tears by Onion.....
I can accept being blinded by the "Light".....
I can accept being "Proven Wrong"......
But getting hit by Birdsh*t ????????
Say it ain't so!
:D