Finley: A Long Winter At Aqueduct

[Augenj]

What Bill Finley says in this article makes sense to me. Tell me where I'm wrong. :)
A Long Winter At Aqueduct (http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/12337181/a-long-winter-aqueduct)

[Clocker]

He doesn't mention the handle. What has happened to that over the last few years?

Especially for a non-New Yorker with ADW access, NY in the winter doesn't make sense. I don't remember the last time I played it in cold weather. Handicapping a card the night before and then having it canceled is a big pain. Small fields generally mean shorter odds. And I find it hard to imagine either raw data or speed and pace figures can be comparable when track conditions change from hour to hour.

[burnsy]

Its been that way for years. I agree with him and have not bet more than 5 races at Aqueduct this year. Years ago I liked the meet but its a sad shell of what it was. I don't know about Thanksgiving like he says but by Christmas they should think about a couple months off. They end up cancelling once or twice a week anyway and the racing is hardly NYRA standards........it is Finger Lake esque. That's not a controversial statement at all. Just look at those fields.

[WJ47]

Buddy Jacobson (David Jacobson's father) was one of the first people to push for winter racing in New York.

I personally never even look at the Aqueduct forms in the winter anymore. I used to make money with Aqueduct, but I grew tired of spending 6 or 7 hours handicapping the form and have racing cancelled. Now I just bet the Southern California tracks in the winter. I'm eagerly waiting for Belmont! :)

I live in Buffalo and the winter has been horrendous. I'm surprised that they haven't cancelled more days at Aqueduct this year.

[Augenj]

I was just wondering about whether I should bother with the inner track next year. Maybe it will be gone anyhow. Like somebody said, extend the outer track a month on each end towards the winter and take a break during the worst of the winter.

[Stillriledup]

Buddy Jacobson (David Jacobson's father) was one of the first people to push for winter racing in New York.

I personally never even look at the Aqueduct forms in the winter anymore. I used to make money with Aqueduct, but I grew tired of spending 6 or 7 hours handicapping the form and have racing cancelled. Now I just bet the Southern California tracks in the winter. I'm eagerly waiting for Belmont! :)

I live in Buffalo and the winter has been horrendous. I'm surprised that they haven't cancelled more days at Aqueduct this year.

Some tracks "Man up" and some don't. After a while, you get to know which tracks are "soft" and which tracks try like heck to not have to cancel. That can save you some time handicapping.....tracks like Parx and Aqu i don't handicap because i know they'll probably cancel, if i see them racing, i'm shocked and try and just make spot plays....the constant cancelling costs them handle on the days they do race becuase nobody can trust them to race, so you can't spend all this time handicapping the night before and if you don't spend time handicapping, its hard to sink your normal daily handle into their race card if they do decide to give it a go.

[Cratos]

What Bill Finley says in this article makes sense to me. Tell me where I'm wrong. :)
A Long Winter At Aqueduct (http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/12337181/a-long-winter-aqueduct)
I might be in the minority, but I vehemently AGREE with Finley; do away with winter racing at Aqueduct.

I don't go to Aqueduct anymore even though it was the first NYRA racetrack I attended as a youngster and where I had my photo taken with the mighty Forego in the winners' circle.

[Tom]

Why do you feel obligated to play there?
If Aqu were closed, you would have the same other tracks to play as you do today.

Just play them now.
Some people love the inner - why make them pay for no reason?

[VeryOldMan]

I might be in the minority, but I vehemently AGREE with Finley; do away with winter racing at Aqueduct.

I don't go to Aqueduct anymore even though it was the first NYRA racetrack I attended as a youngster and where I had my photo taken with the mighty Forego in the winners' circle.
Count me in, Cratos.

This sport desperately needs contraction on the live racing front, in my view. Even on this board - what percentage of our handle is actually on track versus remote? What's the over/under - 15%? My suspicious is to take the under, but I'd be curious about the more active players here because I'm just not that active.

The mighty Forego is my all-time favorite - I'm envious :)

[Robert Fischer]

I would to see an intelligent approach to CONTINUE WINTER RACING IN NEW YORK.


Adjust the incentives regarding claiming race entries.
Improve the vet-exam efficacy.
Apply fundamental common sense safeguards and review of entries.

[Stillriledup]

I would to see an intelligent approach to CONTINUE WINTER RACING IN NEW YORK.


Adjust the incentives regarding claiming race entries.
Improve the vet-exam efficacy.
Apply fundamental common sense safeguards and review of entries.


I agree with your list and the idea of intelligent discussion about this. There's too much knee jerk stuff blaming surfaces and cold weather for injuries.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I might be in the minority, but I vehemently AGREE with Finley; do away with winter racing at Aqueduct.

I don't go to Aqueduct anymore even though it was the first NYRA racetrack I attended as a youngster and where I had my photo taken with the mighty Forego in the winners' circle.

AQU meet has historically been the most profitable to NYRA (sans slots of course).

[westny]

AQU meet has historically been the most profitable to NYRA (sans slots of course).

Of course. All the "expert handicapper " miss the business side of racing...Aquduct handle has in from 4.5M to 6.5M a day. After SA's handle Aqueduct inner is second in the winter.

What about PARX and Laurel mentioned here...they don't race in the winter :lol:
PARX cancels as much as AQU PA isn't FL. and neither is MD...last I looked.

Oh, Laurel... http://www.laurelpark.com/ cancels FRI. Didn't Oaklawn cancel this week.

So, according to that hack, Findley, Aqueduct should close...why becasue the weather is bad some days ?

Look at the nags running at Gulfstream during the week...purses of 18k for 12k claiming..7,7,8,8, entries before scratches in the land of "sunshine"

AQU 6,7,7,8 for today's cancel card. BIG DIFFERENCE :sleeping:

The proposition from hacks like Findley to close AQU is plain stupid. The operating costs at AQU are minimal compared to Saratoga . AQU underwrites the operating cost of running Saeratoga, a very expensive venue.
As for the quality of winter racing at aqu...you whiners are cluless. Except for turf racing/stakes at Gulf...those races are lousy, cheap claiming races.
same as most of the rest of tracks in the US.

AQU always gets smeared becasue of "breakdowns" No doubt, too many this year. But no one EVER tracks fatalities and breakdowns at PARX,
Laurel, MTN and all those other podunk tracks...including Gulfstream..never seen a breakdown list for Gulfstream...the track where a horse's leg was cut off to hide evidence of nerving snd the track "didn't know".

At the very least, NYRA now seriously has rules to curtail potential breakdown situations and fatalities. Name one other track with those rules.
AQU is enforcing them.

i remember AQU races in 1999-2003 with 4 horse fields and 10k purses. The comparison to the quality of racing then vs generally now at aqu is so much better. And before anyone carps about the purses, it costs 40k a year to stable a horse in NY...do the math all you "experts". bigger purses have improved the quality, in general. always exceptions.
Gulf horses coming to Aqu generally do not win.

So, NYRA should give up approx 40 days of 5 million a day in handle---200 million... because "it is cold some days and they have to cancel racing" and too many horse breakdowns this year?
200 million in handle that Aqu grosses that goes to other cold weather competitors tracks that stay open...becasue ...why? That hack Findley says so... along with other dolts :sleeping:

[RXB]

AQU always gets smeared becasue of "breakdowns" No doubt, too many this year. But no one EVER tracks fatalities and breakdowns at PARX,
Laurel, MTN and all those other podunk tracks...including Gulfstream..never seen a breakdown list for Gulfstream...the track where a horse's leg was cut off to hide evidence of nerving snd the track "didn't know".


All of the Magna tracks-- that would include Gulfstream and Laurel-- make their fatality statistics available to the Jockey Club's database.

[NY BRED]

Bill is spot on. The Big A should be closed during the winter months,
and, possibly. permanently.

In turn, the simple solution is to enclose the Belmont grandstand
so that NY could host the Breeders Cup, which will never be the case
with AQU running in November. Thereafter, I would support Bill's
thought to end winter racing.

For those questioning these thoughts check Gulfstream and note
the trainers and Jocks situated in Florida as against who
remain in NY.

The jump in thoroughbred fatalities doesn't include injuries to
Jockeys , which is another reason to consider eliminating
the winter meet at Aqueduct.

[PaceAdvantage]

The only thing Finley is spot-on about are field sizes (and that's an industry plague for the most part, not just AQU-inner). Everything else, I agree more with westny in this thread than Finley.

More knee-jerk journalism. "Maybe it's an outlier." In terms of both the severity of the weather and the number of breakdowns, it's not just a maybe...it's a MOST LIKELY...

[burnsy]

McDonalds brags about selling 6 billion burgers or whatever the hell it is.......that doesn't mean they are any good. Of course the more experienced handicappers are going to avoid it and agree with Finley. We know what crap is and are not compulsive gamblers for the most part. Calling people "dolts" for not betting 4 horse fields and watching horses die is a great solution...I guess..... ;) . People still have not caught on that you can sell any garbage to the masses, even if it sucks ass. That's the American way. If horse racing avoided some of this it would be much better off. When you put the "chase" of handle over your product....you get short fields and cheap horses that break. Its not the surface, or the weather or an outlier, this will go on as long as cheap ass horses are allowed to compete for inflated purses. The 200 million (handle) becomes blood money just like eating too many cheeseburgers at McDonalds is like poison. "Sorry sir, you have liver cancer." Oh well, at least my MacDonald's stock went up....... :confused:

[Robert Fischer]

McDonalds brags about selling 6 billion burgers or whatever the hell it is.......that doesn't mean they are any good. Of course the more experienced handicappers are going to avoid it and agree with Finley. We know what crap is and are not compulsive gamblers for the most part. Calling people "dolts" for not betting 4 horse fields and watching horses die is a great solution...I guess..... ;) . People still have not caught on that you can sell any garbage to the masses, even if it sucks ass. That's the American way. If horse racing avoided some of this it would be much better off. When you put the "chase" of handle over your product....you get short fields and cheap horses that break. Its not the surface, or the weather or an outlier, this will go on as long as cheap ass horses are allowed to compete for inflated purses. The 200 million (handle) becomes blood money just like eating too many cheeseburgers at McDonalds is like poison. "Sorry sir, you have liver cancer." Oh well, at least my MacDonald's stock went up....... :confused:
:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[Tom]

Saturday, my plans include Tampa Bay Downs and a Big Mac meal.

[Cratos]

McDonalds brags about selling 6 billion burgers or whatever the hell it is.......that doesn't mean they are any good. Of course the more experienced handicappers are going to avoid it and agree with Finley. We know what crap is and are not compulsive gamblers for the most part. Calling people "dolts" for not betting 4 horse fields and watching horses die is a great solution...I guess..... ;) . People still have not caught on that you can sell any garbage to the masses, even if it sucks ass. That's the American way. If horse racing avoided some of this it would be much better off. When you put the "chase" of handle over your product....you get short fields and cheap horses that break. Its not the surface, or the weather or an outlier, this will go on as long as cheap ass horses are allowed to compete for inflated purses. The 200 million (handle) becomes blood money just like eating too many cheeseburgers at McDonalds is like poison. "Sorry sir, you have liver cancer." Oh well, at least my MacDonald's stock went up....... :confused:
I agree with you sir.

[burnsy]

Some agreement here and I'll go one step further. I'm willing to bet if I had the time to study this there would be a correlation between the increased purses, number of races run and breakdowns during the last few years....not outliers. The incidents would increase because the motivation (economic pressure) to make money gets a "body" on the track, whether the horse is completely sound or not. Why are they making all these goofy "safety" rules? That remarkably come up in the winter. If you listen to interviews these days. The idea of putting the "horse" first is some kind of novel thing. That right is reserved for the best only. There is a horse shortage, there is an owner shortage....practically all agree on this....yet there is not increased pressure to fill races and make money??? When are the cheapest horses running in NY? Oh? At Aqueduct? Yeah right, nothing to see here, keep the races going. They have already backed off to smaller cards. Why? I must be a real dolt to believe this to be true. I'm not 100% sure but almost sure this hypothesis could be proven economically and scientifically too.

[classhandicapper]

If AQU can operate "break even" in the winter with casino subsidies then it's totally understandable that there would be vested interests in wanting it to continue. There are jobs at stake and money to be earned.

On the flip side...

If AQU can't operate very profitably without casino subsidies, then the government should consider closing it and doing something else that would be more profitable. Maybe even more jobs could be created, greater tax revenue generated etc... by making better investments on that land and returning all the casino subsidies to taxpayers via government.

IMO, tracks need to be able to stand on their own 2 feet and prove they can generate a good return for all stakeholders or the industry should consolidate.

[Tom]

by making better investments on that land and returning all the casino subsidies to taxpayers via government.

When you fall off a horse and land on your head? :lol:

[classhandicapper]

When you fall off a horse and land on your head? :lol:

OK, so I had a momentary lapse into delusion. It's Friday and a few of my brain cells froze waiting for the bus this morning. :lol:

[westny]

If AQU can operate "break even" in the winter with casino subsidies then it's totally understandable that there would be vested interests in wanting it to continue. There are jobs at stake and money to be earned.

On the flip side...

If AQU can't operate very profitably without casino subsidies, then the government should consider closing it and doing something else that would be more profitable. Maybe even more jobs could be created, greater tax revenue generated etc... by making better investments on that land and returning all the casino subsidies to taxpayers via government.

IMO, tracks need to be able to stand on their own 2 feet and prove they can generate a good return for all stakeholders or the industry should consolidate.

using that logic...every track with a casino attached should close since none of them can survive. How is Suffolk doing with no casino?

And this NOTION that "money from better investment would be returned to taxpayers if aqu closes is one of the dumbest statements I've read.

You must have missed the giant corruption scandels in NY assembly in albany...so BAD the federal prosecuter is putting senators and politicos in JAIL for embellezement, kick-back theft. These are the SAME FOLKS than run the NYRA oversee board...NYSRWB...sure, "money will go back to taxpayers...where the RUBBER MEETS THE SKY" :lol: :lol: :lol:

[classhandicapper]

using that logic...every track with a casino attached should close since none of them can survive. How is Suffolk doing with no casino?

And this NOTION that "money from better investment would be returned to taxpayers if aqu closes is one of the dumbest statements I've read.

You must have missed the giant corruption scandels in NY assembly in albany...so BAD the federal prosecuter is putting senators and politicos in JAIL for embellezement, kick-back theft. These are the SAME FOLKS than run the NYRA oversee board...NYSRWB...sure, "money will go back to taxpayers...where the RUBBER MEETS THE SKY" :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am making the "economics argument" from an unbiased perspective.

I think just about every track being supported by casino money SHOULD BE CLOSED. If that happened, some of that handle (probably most) would shift to the remaining tracks and make them more profitable. Then they wouldn't need a casino. Those that deserved to live would live and we could use the land from the losers more effectively.

I pretty much hate the government being involved in any of this, but even with the corruption casino subsidies make no sense for the taxpayer.

[JustRalph]

using that logic...every track with a casino attached should close since none of them can survive. How is Suffolk doing with no casino?


Now that would be a good start

[Saratoga_Mike]

If AQU can operate "break even" in the winter with casino subsidies then it's totally understandable that there would be vested interests in wanting it to continue. There are jobs at stake and money to be earned.

.

They do. It's the most profitable meet they hold (unless that has changed this year).

[Tom]

Most people don't bet on site, so that point is moot.
I can honestly say, I have never smelled anything through my TV.

With the money they handle every day, it is obvious many people are not offended.

Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.
------Yogi Berra

[classhandicapper]

They do. It's the most profitable meet they hold (unless that has changed this year).

I have no interest in studying NYRA's their financials. I have no reason to doubt that, but if you were a politician or neutral taxpayer and the state could make even MORE using that land for something else, you should understand why there would be forces pushing in the direction of closing it.

To me, the bigger problem is the smaller casino tracks. If they were closed, NYRA's handle would almost certainly increase and make AQU more profitable.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I have no interest in studying NYRA's their financials. I have no reason to doubt that, but if you were a politician or neutral taxpayer and the state could make even MORE using that land for something else, you should understand why there would be forces pushing in the direction of closing it.

To me, the bigger problem is the smaller casino tracks. If they were closed, NYRA's handle would almost certainly increase and make AQU more profitable.

I was just responding to your "if they can breakeven" part. Unfortunately, it's hard to argue with your above statement.

[Cholly]

They do. It's the most profitable meet they hold (unless that has changed this year).
Not arguing w/you, just curious--I've heard that point alleged, and I've also heard it refuted. I've also read (on another forum) a poster who claimed to be a CPA who said there is no way anyone can tell one way or the other from NYRA's released financials.

Do you have a source for the contention that the AQ inner is the most profitable meet they hold?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Not arguing w/you, just curious--I've heard that point alleged, and I've also heard it refuted. I've also read (on another forum) a poster who claimed to be a CPA who said there is no way anyone can tell one way or the other from NYRA's released financials.

Do you have a source for the contention that the AQ inner is the most profitable meet they hold?

The financials are public, but segment information isn't provided (i.e., there isn't a breakdown of the various meets). I make the claim because the head of NYRA said it a couple of years ago. I guess it could have been spin, and the underlying statement would depend on certain cost allocations.

[PaceAdvantage]

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:You guys are serious? And at least one of you admits to being a serious gambler?

Wow.

A few extra breakdowns and one harsh winter, and suddenly it's time to get rid of the whole shebang....whatevs... :rolleyes:

[Robert Fischer]

You guys are serious?

I agree with Burnsy's rant.
'Quality' does not seem to carry much weight (if any), in the business model that most of us are served with.


However, I would like to see New York continue their Winter Racing meet.

I would prefer to see it continue with a few changes that could improve the quality of the product, but ultimately I would support it "as is".

[Saratoga_Mike]

I agree with Burnsy's rant.
'Quality' does not seem to carry much weight (if any), in the business model that most of us are served with.


However, I would like to see New York continue their Winter Racing meet.

I would prefer to see it continue with a few changes that could improve the quality of the product, but ultimately I would support it "as is".

Even Finley admits the AQU winter meet has always been marginal. Is it worse now than 20 years ago? I'd like to see some hard stats on that. I remember betting maiden claimers at AQU 20 yrs ago and thinking, "wow I can't believe this is a NYRA event."

[EMD4ME]

Even Finley admits the AQU winter meet has always been marginal. Is it worse now than 20 years ago? I'd like to see some hard stats on that. I remember betting maiden claimers at AQU 20 yrs ago and thinking, "wow I can't believe this is a NYRA event."

I love the inner track meet. I only wish they would run 7 days a week on the INNER track.

TO the politicians, HANDS OFF MY FAVORITE MEET you BUMBS!!!

[jk3521]

In the late 1970's I remember betting the likes of" Yudy Eye" running in 3500 claimers at Aqueduct. Winter racing up here has always been the pits ! :D

[moneyandland]

There's a lot of solutions in between status quo and totally closed...

[castaway01]

In the late 1970's I remember betting the likes of" Yudy Eye" running in 3500 claimers at Aqueduct. Winter racing up here has always been the pits ! :D

That's why I don't understand why so many people seem to believe that it's "cheap horses being forced to run" that are causing the problems. Literally every other track in the Northeast that is running has even "cheaper" horses that still cost a lot to care for, so you'd think there'd be even more desperation to run. Those tracks are also having the same horrible weather NYRA has had to deal with this winter. However, those tracks aren't having the breakdowns Aqueduct has had. Wouldn't that seem to indicate that it's either an outlier or an issue with the inner track surface rather than the quality of the horses? And for those who say drugs, legal and illegal, are being overused to keep horses to be on the track that shouldn't be, that situation is not limited to New York either.

[Tall One]

Even Finley admits the AQU winter meet has always been marginal. Is it worse now than 20 years ago? I'd like to see some hard stats on that. I remember betting maiden claimers at AQU 20 yrs ago and thinking, "wow I can't believe this is a NYRA event."


Aqueduct just adapts and overcomes. Hell, twenty odd years ago, AQU winter was only carding seven live races a day with two simulcast in from GP.

[classhandicapper]

In the late 1970's I remember betting the likes of" Yudy Eye" running in 3500 claimers at Aqueduct. Winter racing up here has always been the pits ! :D


Holy crap. I remember Yudy Eye. I can't remember the names of famous current actors, movies, athletes, songs etc... but I remember Yudy Eye.

I just looked at the PPs.

88 starts
18 wins
11 places
6 shows

earned 86,836

[ronsmac]

Aqueduct just adapts and overcomes. Hell, twenty odd years ago, AQU winter was only carding seven live races a day with two simulcast in from GP.
That's true, times change and so does Aqueduct. I was just looking at a random Saturday in 1976 and over 25000 people showed up in the dead of winter.

[pandy]

I'm shocked that Finley said that Climate Change means that we'll have a lot more of these brutal winters. That kind of ruined the column. For all we know the next four or five winters could be milder than normal, and they'll still call it Climate Change.

[cj]

I'm shocked that Finley said that Climate Change means that we'll have a lot more of these brutal winters. That kind of ruined the column. For all we know the next four or five winters could be milder than normal, and they'll still call it Climate Change.

I found that statement by him as ridiculous as well.

[jk3521]

Holy crap. I remember Yudy Eye. I can't remember the names of famous current actors, movies, athletes, songs etc... but I remember Yudy Eye.

I just looked at the PPs.

88 starts
18 wins
11 places
6 shows

earned 86,836
That's when 86 thousand dollars was 86 thousand dollars!

[Cratos]

I have read posts in this thread where the poster(s) disagree with Finley, but I have yet to read one post that give a salient reason for maintaining Aqueduct status quo.

In my opinion this is another case by the nostalgia few who is "fiddling" while "Rome is burning".

Get over it, this industry obviously need change, but to keep a "boat full of holes" afloat because we want a boat ride is beyond comprehension.

If we want winter racing in NY, invest in Finger Lakes upstate; yes, some of you might find that suggestion outlandish; however we all are entitled to our opinions.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

I agree the winter product in NY has simply gone bad for all of the reasons stated in the article and by the many posters. the horse shortage is real and has been a major reason and the inner dirt track might be unsafe.

[Tom]

I have read posts in this thread where the poster(s) disagree with Finley, but I have yet to read one post that give a salient reason for maintaining Aqueduct status quo.


If we want winter racing in NY, invest in Finger Lakes upstate; yes, some of you might find that suggestion outlandish; however we all are entitled to our opinions.

1. It makes money.
2. People like to bet it.
3. What esle matters?

Finger Lakes? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
We have REAL winters here, not like NY - highlights of snow.
It would cost a fortune to winterize the track AND the barns, and the building.

[Stillriledup]

1. It makes money.
2. People like to bet it.
3. What esle matters?

Finger Lakes? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
We have REAL winters here, not like NY - highlights of snow.
It would cost a fortune to winterize the track AND the barns, and the building.

I miss FL, when do they start racing again?

[Tom]

Mid April.
Used to open for weekends first of March....not a pleasant place to be.

[onefast99]

Mid April.
Used to open for weekends first of March....not a pleasant place to be.
Just came back from Syracuse -14 last Monday not including the wind chill factor. Brutally cold winter not normal, well the snow is....

[OTM Al]

1. It makes money.
2. People like to bet it.
3. What esle matters?

Finger Lakes? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
We have REAL winters here, not like NY - highlights of snow.
It would cost a fortune to winterize the track AND the barns, and the building.

That sums it up pretty well. It also outhandles, or at least did previous to this year, most other winter tracks not named Santa Anita on a regular basis, so it seems to be pretty popular for all the complaining being done. This has been an unusually bad winter and should not be used as the yardstick.

It's not Saratoga, we get it...

[netbet]

http://live.drf.com/nuggets/10448

David Grening , Aqueduct - DRF Live
1hr 9mins ago

NYRA missed pick-4 guarantee Saturday

I must admit, NYRA's guarantee of a pick-4 pool on Saturday's at $200K is not really enticement for me to play the wager. Typically, almost without blinking, the late pick-4 pool exceeds $200,000.

Such was the not the case Saturday, when, after a week without running a live race, the late pick-4 pool at Aqueduct was $170,717 forcing NYRA to make up the difference. The week before, the pick-4 pool was $254,556. The other three Saturdays in 2015 in which there was a guarantee the pool topped $300,000.

First post Saturday was 1:20 p.m. -- the first time this winter post was that late on the weekend. Post times were sped up due to snow and the pick-4 started at 3:34 right as Gulfstream Park was in the meat of its stakes-laden card. Also, NYRA had run its feature as the third.

Total handle Saturday was $5,087,782 at Aqueduct Saturday, a terrible figure for a Saturday.

[Al Gobbi]

Aqueduct also got outhandled by Tampa Bay on Saturday. Yes, Tampa ran 11 races compared to the 9 Aqueduct put out, but its not like it was a big day by any means at Tampa.

[wisconsin]

Aqueduct also got outhandled by Tampa Bay on Saturday. Yes, Tampa ran 11 races compared to the 9 Aqueduct put out, but its not like it was a big day by any means at Tampa.

So what? It's not like Aqueduct is "struggling" for handle these days...

[Stillriledup]

http://live.drf.com/nuggets/10448

David Grening , Aqueduct - DRF Live
1hr 9mins ago

NYRA missed pick-4 guarantee Saturday

I must admit, NYRA's guarantee of a pick-4 pool on Saturday's at $200K is not really enticement for me to play the wager. Typically, almost without blinking, the late pick-4 pool exceeds $200,000.

Such was the not the case Saturday, when, after a week without running a live race, the late pick-4 pool at Aqueduct was $170,717 forcing NYRA to make up the difference. The week before, the pick-4 pool was $254,556. The other three Saturdays in 2015 in which there was a guarantee the pool topped $300,000.

First post Saturday was 1:20 p.m. -- the first time this winter post was that late on the weekend. Post times were sped up due to snow and the pick-4 started at 3:34 right as Gulfstream Park was in the meat of its stakes-laden card. Also, NYRA had run its feature as the third.

Total handle Saturday was $5,087,782 at Aqueduct Saturday, a terrible figure for a Saturday.

I know personally that whatever i normally bet at Aqu was way less because i didnt' spend hours handicapping the cards...especially 4 races "in advance".

This was strictly a situation where people couldn't trust them to race so not enough people spent time preparing for their card.

[Cratos]

Western NY winters are too harsh and winter in the NYC area is an anomaly this year; and all we have to do is wait until 2016 and everything will be fine and dandy.

Give me a f**** ing break! Winter racing in harsh winter climate is not conducive for the betterment of horseracing regardless of the mutuel handle.

If this sport is going to move forward the essence of Finley 's article is astounding correct.

[Tom]

If AQU were to close today and not open until April 1, what would you do tomorrow, Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sat......??

Then go do it.

No one is forcing you to play in the winter.
You have other options.

[JJShilo]

Can't see why they can't closed from the hilliday break till till early March then race till the middle of April. If someone needs to race horses maybe N.Y. could make a deal with the warmer weather tracks to take them as long as they come back .

[JJShilo]

* holliday

[AlBundy33]

If AQU were to close today and not open until April 1, what would you do tomorrow, Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sat......??

Then go do it.

No one is forcing you to play in the winter.
You have other options.

:D

No doubt they would be playing Gulfstream instead if Aqueduct closed.

[PaceAdvantage]

Western NY winters are too harsh and winter in the NYC area is an anomaly this year; and all we have to do is wait until 2016 and everything will be fine and dandy.

Give me a f**** ing break! Winter racing in harsh winter climate is not conducive for the betterment of horseracing regardless of the mutuel handle.

If this sport is going to move forward the essence of Finley 's article is astounding correct.Did you just use the word astounding? Wow...I'll use a word...hilarious...

[PaceAdvantage]

If all you guys would simply stop betting the big A in winter, problem solved... :lol:

But we all know that ain't gonna happen...so why all this complaining and self-righteous posturing?

If Finley actually bet (and I don't know if he does or not), I wonder if he still bets the inner?

[Saratoga_Mike]

If all you guys would simply stop betting the big A in winter, problem solved... :lol:

But we all know that ain't gonna happen...so why all this complaining and self-righteous posturing?

If Finley actually bet (and I don't know if he does or not), I wonder if he still bets the inner?

Didn't he love the inner track back in the late 80s, showing up on Harvey's show fairly often? What's changed? Is the quality really that much worse now? Maybe it is. I just haven't seen the numbers to back up such an assertion.

[Tom]

Writer's block?

[rastajenk]

...so why all this complaining and self-righteous posturing?
'Cause they're horseplayers and it's in their DNA?

[aaron]

Can't knock NYRA for their closures this year,but it appears some bettors have gone else where. A $17000 pick 6 carryover on a weekend would indicate that.

[classhandicapper]

Let me play Devil's advocate a little on this.

Right now, about 80% of my handicapping workload is related to NYRA tracks.

About 10% of my handle (and steadily falling) has been on NYRA tracks this winter.

Why do I continue doing all that work for NYRA tracks if I'm not going to bet the races there?

Because many of those same horses will be running back in NY in spring and summer and I want to have the same quality bias, trip, trainer and other insights when/if my handle rises as the quality of racing and the field sizes rise in NY.

I really have a couple of choices.

Continue doing a lot of work for NYRA tracks in winter despite very little action in NY.

Abandon NYRA and start playing California and/or Florida racing 80% of the time and turn NY into one of my 5%-10% tracks.

IF NYRA closed in the winter, I don't see a huge downside to me personally. My workload could be shifted somewhere like GP or SA. I'd probably come up with many more live horses at those tracks. I suspect more of the NY trainers and horses would just shift to GP and I could keep track of them there. When racing started up in NY again I'd be at least reasonably prepared even if I'd have to play some catch up on trainers and horses that went to LRL or PARX or some other winter track for awhile and then returned to NYRA .

The bottom line is that if you want action on your races, you actually have to card races that are competitive enough, with large enough fields, with decent enough quality to get people interested, and then actually run them. That's the only way people are going to find wagering opportunities. Otherwise, more and more people are going to shift to GP/GPW/TAM or SA/DMR/LRC in winter and just stay there except for the major stakes days when they have a sporting interest.

Others may feel differently about playing NYRA in winter and that's fine. It used to be one of my favorite meets also. I just see it on very shaky ground now. When I look through the PPs, I expect the card to be cancelled, several races to be decimated, or the betting very sharp and the races unplayable.

[drib]

http://live.drf.com/nuggets/10448

David Grening , Aqueduct - DRF Live
1hr 9mins ago

NYRA missed pick-4 guarantee Saturday

I must admit, NYRA's guarantee of a pick-4 pool on Saturday's at $200K is not really enticement for me to play the wager. Typically, almost without blinking, the late pick-4 pool exceeds $200,000.

Such was the not the case Saturday, when, after a week without running a live race, the late pick-4 pool at Aqueduct was $170,717 forcing NYRA to make up the difference. The week before, the pick-4 pool was $254,556. The other three Saturdays in 2015 in which there was a guarantee the pool topped $300,000.

First post Saturday was 1:20 p.m. -- the first time this winter post was that late on the weekend. Post times were sped up due to snow and the pick-4 started at 3:34 right as Gulfstream Park was in the meat of its stakes-laden card. Also, NYRA had run its feature as the third.

Total handle Saturday was $5,087,782 at Aqueduct Saturday, a terrible figure for a Saturday.

It is understandable that NYRA's handle for 2015 is diving. The only positive factor is the continued Monarch boycott with the eastern consortium that might channel some increased handle their way.
I have asked this question before. As far as I can tell, there has never been a release of the business figures for NYRA's fourth quarter or the total 2014 year. Every other racing entity has released similar figures.

[affirmedny]

If all you guys would simply stop betting the big A in winter, problem solved... :lol:

But we all know that ain't gonna happen...so why all this complaining and self-righteous posturing?

If Finley actually bet (and I don't know if he does or not), I wonder if he still bets the inner?

I ran into him at Monmouth Park 10-15 years ago and he was betting Hawthorne harness in a snowstorm so I would guess he's not that picky about what he bets. At least he wasn't back then.