International Racing

[WP1981]

Since the end of NFL I have had some money clanking around in my offshore account. Been playing Wolverhampton, Ascot, etc.

The racing scene seems to be so much more popular across the pond. When I am on the go, I'll normally twitter search my horse a few minutes after post to see what shows up. Normally crickets here in the US even at the major tracks (maybe one drf tweet of result) but over there I'll see 30+ tweets of results from fans.

Their incentives are also a lot better via all the betting shops. I see promos like "any win bet that finishes second will be refunded" among others. Competition seems to make it a paradise for horse players compared to here.

Anyone else play out there?

[raybo]

Since the end of NFL I have had some money clanking around in my offshore account. Been playing Wolverhampton, Ascot, etc.

The racing scene seems to be so much more popular across the pond. When I am on the go, I'll normally twitter search my horse a few minutes after post to see what shows up. Normally crickets here in the US even at the major tracks (maybe one drf tweet of result) but over there I'll see 30+ tweets of results from fans.

Their incentives are also a lot better via all the betting shops. I see promos like "any win bet that finishes second will be refunded" among others. Competition seems to make it a paradise for horse players compared to here.

Anyone else play out there?

I don't bet on foreign races because I can't get data files for them, and the lack of fractional times is a big problem for me. Much of my method is predicated on pace/velocities.

[horses4courses]

I don't bet on foreign races because I can't get data files for them, and the lack of fractional times is a big problem for me. Much of my method is predicated on pace/velocities.

I'm not really a figs guy,
but they are a great addition to the handicapping toolbox.

European racing is very different. Pace, as in US races, differs but
the turf condition has to be the biggest unknown.
The tracks, which only get raced on for short periods,
are seldom in the same condition throughout the year.
They can be labelled identically, but that doesn't mean they are
exactly the same.

There is now a common factor, though, for making US-type
speed figures, and that is on their synthetic tracks.
Tracks like Lingfield (AW), Wolverhampton, Southwell, and Dundalk in Ireland, all race on consistent surfaces.
Figures obtained from, say, Timeform at those tracks should be reliable.

[raybo]

I'm not really a figs guy,
but they are a great addition to the handicapping toolbox.

European racing is very different. Pace, as in US races, differs but
the turf condition has to be the biggest unknown.
The tracks, which only get raced on for short periods,
are seldom in the same condition throughout the year.
They can be labelled identically, but that doesn't mean they are
exactly the same.

There is now a common factor, though, for making US-type
speed figures, and that is on their synthetic tracks.
Tracks like Lingfield (AW), Wolverhampton, Southwell, and Dundalk in Ireland, all race on consistent surfaces.
Figures obtained from, say, Timeform at those tracks should be reliable.

I understand what you're saying, but the raw data is what I need., I don't use, or even look at figures, pace or speed. Surface conditions change all the time, that's a given, and one that most cannot adjust for anyway. Just give me the raw data, that I need, in a properly formatted file, and I'll take it from there.

[horses4courses]

I understand what you're saying, but the raw data is what I need., I don't use, or even look at figures, pace or speed. Surface conditions change all the time, that's a given, and one that most cannot adjust for anyway. Just give me the raw data, that I need, in a properly formatted file, and I'll take it from there.

Understood.
There has to be a source, but I can't help you there.

[joeslovo]

@WP1981
"Their incentives are also a lot better via all the betting shops. I see promos like "any win bet that finishes second will be refunded" among others. Competition seems to make it a paradise for horse players compared to here.

Anyone else play out there?"

I play recreationally at the weekends.There was recent jump racing from Gowran Park;Leopardstown and Ascot.Brilliant.I get a little homesick when I watch I worked at it in my youth and am from Belfast orginally.Horses4Courses had mentioned some of the best AW tracks.You will find more and more horses running in California that originated in Ireland and raced at Dundalk and Lingfield in particular.Paddy Gallagher used to have horses from Ireland that raced at Downpatrick and Dundalk;now I see more trainers with that profile.

Dundalk is destined to become a big European racing center.It is near a picturesque heritage village called Carlingford.My sister (RIP) used to have a hotel there;so I spent many a day and night at Dundalk horse and dog track.
Your point about competition is well taken.There are more opportunities and value for the punter in a village betting shop in Carlingford than at Las Vegas.
FYI Iuse "Atheraces.com" and "The sportinglife.com" for info..also Irishracing.com.If you got to "Racing" on the sportinglfe website..click on live shows and you will see the latest odds ;which are more reliable than you will on a US based site.

[ten2oneormore]

Anyone know why Twinspires isn't covering the Dubai Carnival this year?

[Tom]

Raybo, you can get raw data, including fractions, for some tracks from Trakus.

[thespaah]

I don't bet on foreign races because I can't get data files for them, and the lack of fractional times is a big problem for me. Much of my method is predicated on pace/velocities.
Yeah, I know a couple guys up n NY who are strictly figs guys. The clock is everything to them. Me? I handicap trips trouble and "pace"....
I also look at trainer stats geared to the field and race conditions.
To me, the time of a race is relative to the track conditions that day.
The pace of the race is the key....Just a difference in methods.
Like CJ stated in another thread, it's almost impossible to use time figs with the varying run up distances from one race to the next at the same race distance.

[raybo]

Raybo, you can get raw data, including fractions, for some tracks from Trakus.

Do they offer data files, and what format are they? That's the problem, I have to be able to manipulate the data the way I want to.

[Tom]

No - you can get a summary of fractions and copy it, but it would be all hand entry after that, or you could import it to Excel.

From Meydan...

[olddaddy]

Anyone know why Twinspires isn't covering the Dubai Carnival this year?


Ive called them a couple times and they tell me that there is a contractual problem and they are in negotiations. I voiced my displeasure and tell them that I have to use another ADW and they tell me they will note that. So the bottom line is, Who knows why.

[raybo]

No - you can get a summary of fractions and copy it, but it would be all hand entry after that, or you could import it to Excel.

From Meydan...

Kinda hard to handicap a race if all you can get is a charts summary. I quit hand entering data back in the '80s.

[WP1981]

@WP1981
"Their incentives are also a lot better via all the betting shops. I see promos like "any win bet that finishes second will be refunded" among others. Competition seems to make it a paradise for horse players compared to here.

Anyone else play out there?"

I play recreationally at the weekends.There was recent jump racing from Gowran Park;Leopardstown and Ascot.Brilliant.I get a little homesick when I watch I worked at it in my youth and am from Belfast orginally.Horses4Courses had mentioned some of the best AW tracks.You will find more and more horses running in California that originated in Ireland and raced at Dundalk and Lingfield in particular.Paddy Gallagher used to have horses from Ireland that raced at Downpatrick and Dundalk;now I see more trainers with that profile.

Dundalk is destined to become a big European racing center.It is near a picturesque heritage village called Carlingford.My sister (RIP) used to have a hotel there;so I spent many a day and night at Dundalk horse and dog track.
Your point about competition is well taken.There are more opportunities and value for the punter in a village betting shop in Carlingford than at Las Vegas.
FYI Iuse "Atheraces.com" and "The sportinglife.com" for info..also Irishracing.com.If you got to "Racing" on the sportinglfe website..click on live shows and you will see the latest odds ;which are more reliable than you will on a US based site.

Nice. I've been using thesportinglife for results and some other information. The odds take some getting used to, but is pretty easy to figure out.

Trying Punchestown (IRE) tomorrow. Massive fields and looks like a lot of fun.

[joeslovo]

Punchestown looks like a good card tomorrow.I notice that Ruby Walsh is riding there.One of the greatest jocks ever;along with Tony McCoy.
JP McManus is also a big owner;a great racing man and well known fearless gambler.ou definitely need Irishracing.com for Punchestown then.Just click on "Cards" and then on the time of the race and you will see the Formscan.
Break a leg.

The odds can take a wee bit of getting used to for someone used to the tote decimal system only as in the USA.
For instance;odds such as 11/8 or 7/4 are not usually seen in over here.
11/8 would be 11/8ths obviously but the way to work with these fractions would be evens plus a 1/4 plus a 1/2 of the quarter.In other words for any amount(lets make it 8 units for ease of example) we would have 8 plus a quarter of that 8 plus a 1/2 of that quarter.Which is 8+2+1;equals 11.
7/4 would be 2/1 less a quarter or better still;evens plus a 1/2 plus a 1/2 ie
4+2+1 which equals 7.
The punters in the shops usually SP ie Starting Price.They cab bet each way doubles and trebles and accumulators.Take 4 horses which constitute a bet called a Yankee.It is 6 doubles 4 trebles and one fourfold.
Six horses you can use a Heinz (57 bets no prize for guessing that one) which is 15 doubles;20 trebles;15 fourfolds;6 fivefolds and one accumulator.
SP odds are nowadays 1/4 or 1/5th to place(first three) so 11/8 and your horse is second or third the odds are now 11/32 at 1/4 odds a place or 11/40 at 1/5th.7/4 would likewise be 7/16 or 7/20.And so on and so forth.All fun and games.

[acorn54]

a question. i tried for a short time betting australian races but gave that up at my adw because their betting pools were not co-mingled with the on- track betting pools. the betting pools at my adw were extremely small and any kind of large bets had a huge impact.
does bris or other u.s. betting sites co-mingle their wagering pools with on track foreign tracks?

[joeslovo]

I thought that the Aussie tracks were co-mingled.
The US tote returns for the British and Irish tracks are inline with the on track returns.
The SP odds are different.Bookies in Ireland and Britain offer all kinds of betting opportunities whereby you can take fixed odds before the event.That is bet your opinion regardless of tote returns;and of course on the exchange betting you can bet in running;if you are brave enough and wealthy enough.

[acorn54]

I thought that the Aussie tracks were co-mingled.
The US tote returns for the British and Irish tracks are inline with the on track returns.
The SP odds are different.Bookies in Ireland and Britain offer all kinds of betting opportunities whereby you can take fixed odds before the event.That is bet your opinion regardless of tote returns;and of course on the exchange betting you can bet in running;if you are brave enough and wealthy enough.


i will double-check,with the adw i use and see if it is just my faulty memory.
thanks

[biggestal99]

I use racingpost for my handicapping info.

Allan

[Some_One]

Woodbine runs the Aussie totes I believe and they are not co-mingled with the Aussie tracks, zero chance.

The UK totes are run by totesport out of the UK and I think there is a comingling deal with North American operators to get access into those pools.

[olddaddy]

Twinspires is taking dubai as of tomorrow.

[ten2oneormore]

Ive called them a couple times and they tell me that there is a contractual problem and they are in negotiations. I voiced my displeasure and tell them that I have to use another ADW and they tell me they will note that. So the bottom line is, Who knows why.

I figured as much. Twinspires think everyone needs them . Dubai is probably the one place that could care less about the few million they lose not broadcasting there.

Crossing my fingers someone comes to their senses by Super Saturday and a must by World Cup Night.

[ten2oneormore]

Twinspires is taking dubai as of tomorrow.

Pretty crazy you posted this as I was responding to your other post .

That's good news.

[Nitro]

I'm not a numbers and figures guy any longer (unless you're talking about money figures) so I can't help you with all that stuff. (And I'm being kind), but I will say that the best racing in the world as far as I'm concerned is in Hong Kong. You want PPs they're free. You want tote info its free. All available through the Hong Kong Jockey Club Web sites. I've been playing there since TVG made it available. The only negative is the big time difference. It usually starts at 12 Midnight and ends at 5 AM EST, but its worth the inconvenience!
Last Sun morning I had my best time yet! Its too bad that they don't offer (off track) Supers yet .
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120403&page=1

[WP1981]

This is odd. I just had Layl win race 3 at Meydan at 9/2 per everything on twitter. My book paid at $8.80.

Never had this happen, wonder if they are using another pool?

[raybo]

This is odd. I just had Layl win race 3 at Meydan at 9/2 per everything on twitter. My book paid at $8.80.

Never had this happen, wonder if they are using another pool?

If you're betting through an offshore book, that is probably the case, a different pool.

[ReplayRandall]

This is odd. I just had Layl win race 3 at Meydan at 9/2 per everything on twitter. My book paid at $8.80.

Never had this happen, wonder if they are using another pool?
Expressbet payoffs for race #3 at Meydan:
13 Layl Dobbs P J $8.80 - $3.20
16 Giftorm Fallon K - $8.00
2 Romansh Barzalona M - $3.40

[osophy_junkie]

FYI Iuse "Atheraces.com" and "The sportinglife.com" for info..also Irishracing.com.If you got to "Racing" on the sportinglfe website..click on live shows and you will see the latest odds ;which are more reliable than you will on a US based site.


Thanks for the links! I've been looking for a free source of international race charts for the past couple of months.

And now that I look at them I have a couple of questions. What's a chase and is it different than a hurdle race? The final times are in the teens, I find it hard to believe they are just like normal grass races.

How many shippers are in chase or hurdle races? They seem to be the majority of the races, should I keep them?

[Some_One]

Technically they are all shippers, UK/Ire tracks don't have on track barns.

Chase versus Hurdle difference is the size of the obstacle to clear and the toughness. You can whack a hurdle and get away with it, not so with a chasing fence.

There will be no real charts, even for the flat UK/Ire races, sectional timing doesn't really exist. Results archives can be found at sportinglife.com or racingpost.com. The jump season runs mostly during the winter (with the daily all weather meet) then starting in April(?) the flat season picks up and the jump season winds down.

[Some_One]

Technically they are all shippers, UK/Ire tracks don't have on track barns.

Chase versus Hurdle difference is the size of the obstacle to clear and the toughness. You can whack a hurdle and get away with it, not so with a chasing fence.

There will be no real charts, even for the flat UK/Ire races, sectional timing doesn't really exist. Results archives can be found at sportinglife.com or racingpost.com. The jump season runs mostly during the winter (with the daily all weather meet) then starting in April(?) the flat season picks up and the jump season winds down.

To help with the difference between Chase and Hurdle, especially with the Cheltenham Festival coming up, a couple of videos, the Champion Hurdle and the Gold Cup (Chase) from last year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsj81XUqdmI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrydSESZnCw

[joeslovo]

Some_One summed it up nicely.
The Cheltenham festival is not to be missed.
Basically the best of Ireland and England over the jumps.
Great opportunity for a good punt.

[Scanman]

Thanks to Twinspires (or other ADW), international racing gets 95% of my play. UK/Ireland over the sticks gets about 55% and Australia/New Zealand on the grass gets the other 40%.

Regretfully, US racing is just patently boring (left turn, left turn, finish).

[biggestal99]

I don't bet on foreign races because I can't get data files for them, and the lack of fractional times is a big problem for me. Much of my method is predicated on pace/velocities.

Fractional times are almodt totally useless, how can you measure the velocity when they are running uphill at the finish, as they are at the newmarket july course

Almost all uk tracks are hilly. Look at epsom, down the hill and then up at the finish

Allan

[raybo]

Fractional times are almodt totally useless, how can you measure the velocity when they are running uphill at the finish, as they are at the newmarket july course

Almost all uk tracks are hilly. Look at epsom, down the hill and then up at the finish

Allan

I said "foreign" races, not "UK" races. If UK has hilly courses then I doubt I would play them anyway. Also, aren't most of their meets short? If so, that would be another reason to not play them.

[horses4courses]

I said "foreign" races, not "UK" races. If UK has hilly courses then I doubt I would play them anyway. Also, aren't most of their meets short? If so, that would be another reason to not play them.

That's why I suggested their all-weather tracks to you earlier.
Surface parity, and repetition, at each track every racing day.

[joeslovo]

Timeform was the gold standard.I presume it still is.There are various other speed rating systems available as well;both on the flat and over the jumps.
j
Here is a link to the BHA guide to handicapping.Interesting to note for me that it is still 3lb for one beaten length for weight adjustment.

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Guide-to-Handicapping.pdf

[nijinski]

Hope he's going to ne ok .

Ron the Greek, a multiple grade I winner in the U.S. who now races in Saudi Arabia, will miss the $10 million Dubai World Cup (UAE-I) March 28 because of an unspecified injury.

Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/90826/ron-the-greek-to-miss-dubai-world-cup#ixzz3VAyAf1wx

[olddaddy]

Dubai world cup is going to have a short field. A real shame for the richest race in the world.

[Some_One]

Same for the two big turf races. Able Friend is staying home, might go to Royal Ascot instead. Protectionist and Red Cadeaux will run during The Championships at Randwick instead.

However the Golden Shaeen looks good, the rubber match between Secret Circle and Rich Tapestry.

[WP1981]

A little update to this thread.

My offshore dried up a little after AZ started allowing ADW's again. It won't let me wager on the IRE/UK races but I have taken a shining to AUS racing.

The pool size makes it very volatile but it has been mostly a good thing for me as I am only betting $10-40 win and place wagers. My odds normally sky rocket instead of drop. I also notice a majority of them come back quickly, I swear I've seen a few back in a couple of days. I had a 9-1 winner last week return and run second at 47-1. Amazing.

Another funny thing is one race I saw a starter break a second earlier than the field. They all ran a good 1/4 mile before pulling up, marched back up to the gate and restarted.

I like it.