2 Year Old Layoffs

[RacingFan1992]

What are your opinions on giving 2 year olds lay offs from racing not due to injury but rather rest? Do you think the greater the lay the worse for the horse? The two I horses I looked at so far were Omaha and War Admiral for no particular reason. These two horse have 205 day and 186 day layoffs from the last time they raced at two to the point when they started back at three.

[Stillriledup]

When you say rest, do you mean that they raced a few times and got tired and needed some time off.....or do you mean just not racing them for 6 months to a year for no reason other than letting them develop?

Good horses are managed like good horses, which means that there's a 'plan' in place for a horse to be freshened, if a horse runs a few times in the summer and early fall and then the connections feel the horse is a good prospect, they'll send the horse to a warm weather state (if they can afford it) and turn the horse out and let him grow and bring him back slowly. Horses who aren't viewed as quality by the connections usually won't get the same treatment.

[MJC922]

Interesting topic. I'm not a trainer but I've observed a lot of horses in the past which have had long careers. Most had something in common and that was winters off. My personal opinion is that every horse (any age) should have at least three consecutive months away from the track per year, just on the farm. I think it's a good thing to let their nerves settle and let them just be horses for a while. I've seen horses have careers of 70-100 or more lifetime starts with this type of seasonal rest pattern of taking the winters off and then getting back onto the track for training in March. Wise Dan has been handled wonderfully through his career this way.

Now I do think the game is a bit different these days. Horses seem to need more time between races, possibly Lasix has caused this change. Fewer starts per month is the norm so it seems as though the owners maybe are understandably less likely to give a block of few months off. I'm seeing even the very top horses in the sport these days barely getting two months off in their careers (which are typically short as we all know).

[ReplayRandall]

What are your opinions on giving 2 year olds lay offs from racing not due to injury but rather rest? Do you think the greater the lay the worse for the horse? The two I horses I looked at so far were Omaha and War Admiral for no particular reason. These two horse have 205 day and 186 day layoffs from the last time they raced at two to the point when they started back at three.
Since you've used triple crown winners as examples, all 11 triple crown winners had a minimum of 86 days between the last race of their 2 yr-old season and the first race of their 3 yr-old campaign.....

[Cholly]

Since you've used triple crown winners as examples, all 11 triple crown winners had a minimum of 86 days between the last race of their 2 yr-old season and the first race of their 3 yr-old campaign.....
What's a triple crown winner?

[Stillriledup]

What's a triple crown winner?

Miguel Cabrera.

[chadk66]

What are your opinions on giving 2 year olds lay offs from racing not due to injury but rather rest? Do you think the greater the lay the worse for the horse? The two I horses I looked at so far were Omaha and War Admiral for no particular reason. These two horse have 205 day and 186 day layoffs from the last time they raced at two to the point when they started back at three.layoffs of that length are generally due to physical ailments of some kind. pretty rare to be off that long just for the hell of it.

[RacingFan1992]

Since you've used triple crown winners as examples, all 11 triple crown winners had a minimum of 86 days between the last race of their 2 yr-old season and the first race of their 3 yr-old campaign.....

I changed my views on who is counted as a Triple Crown winner. Sir Barton and Gallant Fox while technically won what we call the Triple Crown the concept wasn't until Gallant Fox won his that Charles Hatton used the term on the spring triad. I had one poster show me the light when it comes to the error of my way. How can you say they were a winner of the championship when when they did it, it wasn't even developed and something that was attempted. Yes they won the Triple Crown but at the time it wasn't anything special.

[RacingFan1992]

When you say rest, do you mean that they raced a few times and got tired and needed some time off.....or do you mean just not racing them for 6 months to a year for no reason other than letting them develop?

Good horses are managed like good horses, which means that there's a 'plan' in place for a horse to be freshened, if a horse runs a few times in the summer and early fall and then the connections feel the horse is a good prospect, they'll send the horse to a warm weather state (if they can afford it) and turn the horse out and let him grow and bring him back slowly. Horses who aren't viewed as quality by the connections usually won't get the same treatment.

The later is what I meant. For development.

[Stillriledup]

The later is what I meant. For development.

I think Chad hit the nail on the head that layoffs of 200 days or thereabouts are not going to be "development" layoffs, that's just too long, people who wait that long for "no particular reason" are few and far between. I guess maybe its happened before, but its not something anyone really does.

The development layoffs on the 2s turning 3 or the 3s turning 4, are much shorter, maybe people give a horse a month or so in the field and then get the horse back into training.

[RacingFan1992]

I think Chad hit the nail on the head that layoffs of 200 days or thereabouts are not going to be "development" layoffs, that's just too long, people who wait that long for "no particular reason" are few and far between. I guess maybe its happened before, but its not something anyone really does.

The development layoffs on the 2s turning 3 or the 3s turning 4, are much shorter, maybe people give a horse a month or so in the field and then get the horse back into training.

Mind you I can't say what caused the layoffs and when and how often the horse worked because all I know is that is the number of days between races is long. If anyone can tell me where I can find the complete workouts of every TC winner during that period would be awesome.

Just because nobody gives that long of a layoff doesnt mean it should be done.

[nijinski]

layoffs of that length are generally due to physical ailments of some kind. pretty rare to be off that long just for the hell of it.

It works in Europe . That's the timing mostly of their race schedule .

Horses for example , Frankel and Sea The Stars had lengthy layoffs with
great results . Most of the big contenders did and not due to ailments .

[nijinski]

Mind you I can't say what caused the layoffs and when and how often the horse worked because all I know is that is the number of days between races is long. If anyone can tell me where I can find the complete workouts of every TC winner during that period would be awesome.

Just because nobody gives that long of a layoff doesnt mean it should be done.

Those were the days of the big farms . Things have changed . The training centers are big now and economics seem to bring back horses sooner .

[Robert Fischer]

It works in Europe . That's the timing mostly of their race schedule .

Horses for example , Frankel and Sea The Stars had lengthy layoffs with
great results . Most of the big contenders did and not due to ailments .

That's a good point. It's interesting to compare some of these places (like Europe and probably other places overseas) .

I know very little about the 2yo layoffs. It's all very interesting and mysterious to me.

I am curious about, and suspect has an impact = How young and how intense training is started.
When you have yearlings and young 2yos being sold on the basis of a workout sprint time, that raises the question about what is the ideal pace of a baby horse.
On one hand a certain amount of activity may increase growth and maturity. On the other, it seems possible that pushing a horse early may cause some conformation issues w/ some young horses. You also have big money on the line with sales for both looks and precocious development, so you have some use of steroids and growth hormones going on at a young age.

It makes me wonder if you have bred your own horse, whether that gives you some small advantage as to ideally pacing your development(if there is an ideal thing).

Probably plays a role in the ideal 2yo rest period as well :ThmbUp:

[CosmicWon]

One of the owners I worked for employed a very reputable bloodstock agent back before the market crashed who was very fond of the 2yo in Training Sales because he felt it mitigated portion of the risk of buying yearlings or weanies.

They did have some success with these 2yo purchases including winning the Adirondack at SAR but it soon became obvious to the owner that his 2yo in Training horses all either couldn't make it to the end of summer without going sour or needed an immediate break of 4-8 wks post-sale to recover and come back to Earth before resuming training.

Based on those results, their 2yo in Training experiment only lasted about 2-3 seasons before we went back to homebreds or yearlings only.

IRT Triple Crown winners as examples for typical schedules: have to remember back then there wasn't year round racing anyway so horses got winter breaks by default not necessarily because of their fitness regimen.

I would say it's reasonable to assume the horses trainers point towards 3yo Classics are often given breaks this time of year just to fill in, grow, and prepare for the grind that is TC prep season. Also it is not uncommon for stamina to be the focus more than speed during winter just because of poor track conditions and the fact trainers have time in the winter to actually put some "bottom" into the horse by conditioning through plenty of long gallops rather than working fast-twitch muscles in breezes.

My dime store experience leads me to believe the campaign of Mr. Z for instance is atypical because it's a fact overracing/overconditioning can lead to physical and mental issues for an overstimulated or stressed equine athlete. See Oxbow for an example of this, though Will Take Charge also represents the other end of the spectrum. (I'd argue WTC was campaigned more judiciously once connex realized breeding $$ and Championships were at stake as he started to become good)

[MJC922]

It works in Europe . That's the timing mostly of their race schedule .

Horses for example , Frankel and Sea The Stars had lengthy layoffs with
great results . Most of the big contenders did and not due to ailments .

Truly remarkable horses. Probably the two best I've seen in 30 years of race-watching (and I'm in the US). Personal opinion obviously... producing two horses like this in close proximity indicates the UK racing establishment is doing something very right. Clean drug free, seasonal racing.

[ReplayRandall]

I changed my views on who is counted as a Triple Crown winner. Sir Barton and Gallant Fox while technically won what we call the Triple Crown the concept wasn't until Gallant Fox won his that Charles Hatton used the term on the spring triad. I had one poster show me the light when it comes to the error of my way. How can you say they were a winner of the championship when when they did it, it wasn't even developed and something that was attempted. Yes they won the Triple Crown but at the time it wasn't anything special.
The 2 most valuable Derby programs of all 11 triple crown winners are those 2. Fact, there are 11 triple crown winners, no matter the unconscious manner in which they won it. If you want to say there's only 9 who consciously pursued the Triple Crown, go right ahead, but intentions are subjective and facts are objective......It is true that the phrase "triple crown was coined in 1930, but does it really change any of the facts?.....not a one.

[chadk66]

It works in Europe . That's the timing mostly of their race schedule .

Horses for example , Frankel and Sea The Stars had lengthy layoffs with
great results . Most of the big contenders did and not due to ailments .don't you go trying to compare europe to the U.S.:cool:

[chadk66]

That's a good point. It's interesting to compare some of these places (like Europe and probably other places overseas) .

I know very little about the 2yo layoffs. It's all very interesting and mysterious to me.

I am curious about, and suspect has an impact = How young and how intense training is started.
When you have yearlings and young 2yos being sold on the basis of a workout sprint time, that raises the question about what is the ideal pace of a baby horse.
On one hand a certain amount of activity may increase growth and maturity. On the other, it seems possible that pushing a horse early may cause some conformation issues w/ some young horses. You also have big money on the line with sales for both looks and precocious development, so you have some use of steroids and growth hormones going on at a young age.

It makes me wonder if you have bred your own horse, whether that gives you some small advantage as to ideally pacing your development(if there is an ideal thing).

Probably plays a role in the ideal 2yo rest period as well :ThmbUp:there is absolutely no ideal pace for a 2yo. It's one day at a time. no two are the same. they mature at completely different paces both mentally and physically. the trainers that have poor track records with two year olds are the guys that think there is a set pace for them. there's not. you adapt to their needs and that's it. and it doesn't change a whole lot as they get older lol.

[chadk66]

One of the owners I worked for employed a very reputable bloodstock agent back before the market crashed who was very fond of the 2yo in Training Sales because he felt it mitigated portion of the risk of buying yearlings or weanies.

They did have some success with these 2yo purchases including winning the Adirondack at SAR but it soon became obvious to the owner that his 2yo in Training horses all either couldn't make it to the end of summer without going sour or needed an immediate break of 4-8 wks post-sale to recover and come back to Earth before resuming training.

Based on those results, their 2yo in Training experiment only lasted about 2-3 seasons before we went back to homebreds or yearlings only.

IRT Triple Crown winners as examples for typical schedules: have to remember back then there wasn't year round racing anyway so horses got winter breaks by default not necessarily because of their fitness regimen.

I would say it's reasonable to assume the horses trainers point towards 3yo Classics are often given breaks this time of year just to fill in, grow, and prepare for the grind that is TC prep season. Also it is not uncommon for stamina to be the focus more than speed during winter just because of poor track conditions and the fact trainers have time in the winter to actually put some "bottom" into the horse by conditioning through plenty of long gallops rather than working fast-twitch muscles in breezes.

My dime store experience leads me to believe the campaign of Mr. Z for instance is atypical because it's a fact overracing/overconditioning can lead to physical and mental issues for an overstimulated or stressed equine athlete. See Oxbow for an example of this, though Will Take Charge also represents the other end of the spectrum. (I'd argue WTC was campaigned more judiciously once connex realized breeding $$ and Championships were at stake as he started to become good)buying two year olds out of a two year old in training sale is probably the biggest crap shoot one could get himself into. I never pushed my owners to do that because I didn't feel those horses ever had their best interests in mind during the few months they were being prepped for the sale. that can leave life long issues for them.

[forced89]

layoffs of that length are generally due to physical ailments of some kind. pretty rare to be off that long just for the hell of it.

Yes, 200 days is a long time. But in some cases maybe 90 - 120 of those days may be training in a Training Center or on the Farm.

[chadk66]

you don't generally send a horse from the track to a training center for that many days. even after 30-60 days on the farm. If your doing that you don't have much hope for the horse. Not saying there isn't a rare occasion for this but believe me it's extremely rare.

[Robert Goren]

From a betting point of view, a layoff after a strong two year old campaign is not a good thing.

[OTM Al]

It works in Europe . That's the timing mostly of their race schedule .

Horses for example , Frankel and Sea The Stars had lengthy layoffs with
great results . Most of the big contenders did and not due to ailments .

This is because there are no turf flat races from November until March. Their competition pretty much had the same layoff. About half the 2000 Guineas field are running for the first time as a 3yo.

[nijinski]

don't you go trying to compare europe to the U.S.:cool:

Those long seasons off never hurt Goldi when she showed up here ! :)

[nijinski]

don't you go trying to compare europe to the U.S.:cool:


Aqueduct 4/15/1967 7 Gotham Stakes 1
Aqueduct 10/15/1966 7 Champagne Stakes 2


Ok then , Dr Fager !

[chadk66]

Aqueduct 4/15/1967 7 Gotham Stakes 1
Aqueduct 10/15/1966 7 Champagne Stakes 2


Ok then , Dr Fager !Like I said it's extremely rare. you just made my case. show me hundreds of cases and then you'll have a point.

[chadk66]

Aqueduct 4/15/1967 7 Gotham Stakes 1
Aqueduct 10/15/1966 7 Champagne Stakes 2


Ok then , Dr Fager !on me thing. do you have his workouts between those two race dates? I would guess the odds are pretty good he had a physical ailment between those two races that set him back.

[Ruffian1]

Dr. Fager was beaten in his last race as a 2 year old because he was hooked by a rabbit for the eventual winner and champion 2 year old Successor, and was beaten a length.

Word always was that he got sick while training early in this 3 year old year which kept him from running earlier than the Gotham in early April. It was bad knees that kept him from the Derby, as well as the other two jewels so it was said.

Profile pics of him as a 4 year old shows the bottom joints of his knees screaming for help IMO. Therefore, I believe what was always said.

He won the Jersey Derby by a bunch but was taken down because he reached over and bit the crap out of In Reality on the clubhouse turn.

What a great competitor.

What a warrior.

What a horse !