Ban Bute - for the safety of horses and riders

[horses4courses]

Excellent, to the point, piece on the dangers of phenylbutazone.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/shared_content.cfm?id=1958

We have created, via selection, a noble breed of peaceful warriors who will perform above the call of duty, and they are already prone to enough injuries due to their courage and devotion, without depriving them of the ability to actually feel the damage they are doing to themselves.

Many jockeys have been killed, maimed or handicapped from falls and pileups which should not have occurred if their mount had not been on bute. I have never quite understood why none of these unfortunate victims or their families thought of suing the connections of the horse involved: they had a much better case in court than many plaintiffs who win damages. Perhaps we need such a case to wake the industry up?

[outofthebox]

Excellent, to the point, piece on the dangers of phenylbutazone.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/shared_content.cfm?id=1958The writer lost me in his opening paragraph. Bute is not a powerful pain blocker, especially given 24 hours out. There has to be other drugs out there that are not being picked up by the testing. There are trainers and vets that are always one step ahead of the testing labs.

[horses4courses]

.Phenylbutazone
Drug
Phenylbutazone, often referred to as "bute", is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug for the short-term treatment of pain and fever in animals. Wikipedia

[lamboguy]

i couldn't agree more with this author. the main problem that i see is that these horses train on bute, not so much during the race. the levels that are allowed in horses when they race are very small and in my opinion very insignificant. the problem really is in the training.

i sent up a very sound horse to a top trainer in New York about 5 years and my horse broke down on the turf in Belmont. i couldn't figure it out until i got the bills, my horse was loaded up with bute during training. i couldn't understand how the horse was working so fast because when i had him he was at least a second slower going a half.

this isn't the first time that i have brought this up here as a major problem. i don't have the solution to it though because if the stuff doesn't test its considered legal. in my opinion, its actually worse on the horse to train loaded up with bute than to race on it.

add horses being tapped and shocked and you can see the problem with breakdown's.

its not the track surfaces in New York that is the reason for breakdowns, its these other things.

[OTM Al]

"Noble breed of peaceful warriors"?

Peaceful my a$$. Stallions will kill each other and anyone in their vicinity if control is lost. I just can't buy in to any article that makes ridiculous statements like this.

[horses4courses]

"Noble breed of peaceful warriors"?

Peaceful my a$$. Stallions will kill each other and anyone in their vicinity if control is lost. I just can't buy in to any article that makes ridiculous statements like this.

The question is, though, is bute good, or bad, for the sport?
Would it be safer without it, or not?

[OTM Al]

The question is, though, is bute good, or bad, for the sport?
Would it be safer without it, or not?

If used properly, in moderation and as intended, it if likely fine. Horsey Tylenol if you will. But as many things, it can also be misused.

[lamboguy]

If used properly, in moderation and as intended, it if likely fine. Horsey Tylenol if you will. But as many things, it can also be misused.humans that take asperin and tylenol on a very regular basis develop liver problems. the amount of bute that is give to horses when training is way to much for them, and in many ways its worse for them than humans.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Excellent, to the point, piece on the dangers of phenylbutazone.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/shared_content.cfm?id=1958





You do understand that Bute is just an aspirin?

[RXB]

You do understand that Bute is just an aspirin?

The HBPA, of all organizations, headlined this article "Bute: Not The Aspirin You Thought It Was."

http://www.hbpa.org/HorsemensJournalDisplay.asp?section=3&key1=11860

[Robert Fischer]

In the debate about the number of fatal breakdowns at Aqueduct, I am struck by the omission of, what seems to me, the obvious major cause: that these horses are running on a powerful analgesic, phenylbutazone, and don't feel the pain--nature's warning signal when an
injury occurs--in time to save themselves.
This article is inaccurate sensationalism.

phenylbutazone is NOT the obvious major cause of the breakdowns at Aqueduct = that is a falsehood

phenylbutazone is misportrayed in that article as a more powerful pain-masking substance than it is.

Breakdowns are misportrayed in that article as an event that is preceded by "nature's warning signal".


I'm sorry, but truth matters to me. I question what I read or hear, even if it's on TV or the Internet. Even if the person associated is an authority. You don't need innacurate statements to win my support.
Phenylbutazone causes lots of problems. We rarely hear about the blood cells or the stomach/digestive problems from bute. They get swept under the rug.

There is a real problem with sore horses being drugged up and given a good warm-up, rather than being given a month off. It's more cost-effective to treat the pain, and Bute is one of the common treatments. We tend to sweep it under the rug. We have really lax standards for the vet exams that only seem to tighten when enough horses die to draw unwanted attention.

There are lots of problems with Bute and in general. We can be open and honest and accurate with them.

[lamboguy]

This article is inaccurate sensationalism.

phenylbutazone is NOT the obvious major cause of the breakdowns at Aqueduct = that is a falsehood

phenylbutazone is misportrayed in that article as a more powerful pain-masking substance than it is.

Breakdowns are misportrayed in that article as an event that is preceded by "nature's warning signal".


I'm sorry, but truth matters to me. I question what I read or hear, even if it's on TV or the Internet. Even if the person associated is an authority. You don't need innacurate statements to win my support.
Phenylbutazone causes lots of problems. We rarely hear about the blood cells or the stomachhe/digestive problems from bute. They get swept under the rug.

There is a real problem with sore horses being drugged up and given a good warm-up, rather than being given a month off. It's more cost-effective to treat the pain, and Bute is one of the common treatments. We tend to sweep it under the rug. We have really lax standards for the vet exams that only seem to tighten when enough horses die to draw unwanted attention.

There are lots of problems with Bute and in general. We can be open and honest and accurate with them.horses that train without pain train harder and faster than those that have it. if you artificially subdue the pain, the horse will train harder, but the reasons for the pain are still very prevalent.

today trainers put young horses on bute, the horse gets used to it and can't run without it. when you think about it, if you have a minor burn or headache you might take an advil or tylenol for a few days and stop taking it once the pain goes away. with horses they get a steady dose of bute to train on and that is how you develop plenty of problems.

this is all going to boil down to this, a person that trains or owns plenty of race horses don't care as much about his not so good horses as the person that only owns 1 or 2 of them. the smaller guy would tend to stop on the horse, turn him out and bring him back when he feels better. the bigger guy is only going to have interest in the horse as long as he is running bringing in purses.

[Ruffian1]

Quote:
Many jockeys have been killed, maimed or handicapped from falls and pileups which should not have occurred if their mount had not been on bute. I have never quite understood why none of these unfortunate victims or their families thought of suing the connections of the horse involved: they had a much better case in court than many plaintiffs who win damages. Perhaps we need such a case to wake the industry up?


This is pathetic sensationalism at the expense of injured or killed jockey's and horses .
Whoever is responsible for those quotes has no idea what they are talking about and should be ashamed of themselves.

Beyond that nonsense, how much bute is actually given to "all" race horses. People make it sound as if they eat it like candy and have it in their system at all times, you know, "like Tylenol". Does everyone take a dose of tylenol every 4-6 hours everyday? Of course not.

The vast majority of trainers ( I would say all, but there are idiots in every field), do not train horses on bute ever . It is not needed. I rarely did, and NEVER ALWAYS.
This is irresponsible, scar tactic, B.S.

Can't believe I even spent this much time responding to it.

[Ruffian1]

This article is inaccurate sensationalism.

phenylbutazone is NOT the obvious major cause of the breakdowns at Aqueduct = that is a falsehood

phenylbutazone is misportrayed in that article as a more powerful pain-masking substance than it is.

Breakdowns are misportrayed in that article as an event that is preceded by "nature's warning signal".


I'm sorry, but truth matters to me. I question what I read or hear, even if it's on TV or the Internet. Even if the person associated is an authority. You don't need innacurate statements to win my support.
Phenylbutazone causes lots of problems. We rarely hear about the blood cells or the stomach/digestive problems from bute. They get swept under the rug.

There is a real problem with sore horses being drugged up and given a good warm-up, rather than being given a month off. It's more cost-effective to treat the pain, and Bute is one of the common treatments. We tend to sweep it under the rug. We have really lax standards for the vet exams that only seem to tighten when enough horses die to draw unwanted attention.

There are lots of problems with Bute and in general. We can be open and honest and accurate with them.

Very well said !

[Robert Fischer]

horses that train without pain train harder and faster than those that have it. if you artificially subdue the pain, the horse will train harder, but the reasons for the pain are still very prevalent.

today trainers put young horses on bute, the horse gets used to it and can't run without it. when you think about it, if you have a minor burn or headache you might take an advil or tylenol for a few days and stop taking it once the pain goes away. with horses they get a steady dose of bute to train on and that is how you develop plenty of problems.

I agree.
And there are real problems with Bute.

We still have to have journalistic integrity if we are going to be legitimate.

[Ruffian1]

i couldn't agree more with this author. the main problem that i see is that these horses train on bute, not so much during the race. the levels that are allowed in horses when they race are very small and in my opinion very insignificant. the problem really is in the training.

i sent up a very sound horse to a top trainer in New York about 5 years and my horse broke down on the turf in Belmont. i couldn't figure it out until i got the bills, my horse was loaded up with bute during training. i couldn't understand how the horse was working so fast because when i had him he was at least a second slower going a half.

this isn't the first time that i have brought this up here as a major problem. i don't have the solution to it though because if the stuff doesn't test its considered legal. in my opinion, its actually worse on the horse to train loaded up with bute than to race on it.

add horses being tapped and shocked and you can see the problem with breakdown's.

its not the track surfaces in New York that is the reason for breakdowns, its these other things.

If your trainer was billing you through the vet for daily bute injections, other than just for a race, he was stealing money from you. A bottle of bute tablets that can be given several ways has 100 pills in it and is about the same cost as 1 or at the most, 2 injections. It's very inexpensive. The tablets are what would be given for training purposes.
A vet would need to inject the horse at 5:30 am each day so the horse could train around 9am, once the injection gets into the blood stream and has time to work. 2 pills in the feed the afternoon before would be just as good at a fraction of the cost.
Also, if the horse truly did train on bute, if the trainer was worth a quarter, the horse stood in a whirlpool or ice, or had some therapy done after it had cooled out but before it was time for ALL horses to eat lunch, typically about 10:30 am. There would have been no time for that therapy and to work on the horses legs before it was time to feed, so the groom, who typically finishes about 11am, would have to work on the horse after they ate, or until 12 or 1pm. That's insane. Also, you can't work on most horses during lunch and be underneath them when the whole barn is eating lunch and that horse isn't. Your risk of getting injured gores WAY up and no trainer wants that for their employees.
Lastly, if your horse is sore and needs exercise, the last thing you want to do is train the horse on a cut up track. A trainer that has a clue would be sure to have that horse go out before 7:15am, before the track is a beach and cut up. They CAN go out just after the break at roughly 8:30 but... trainers like to save that "tack" spot for workers on a perfect track. Trainers do not have a saddle and a bridle for each horse, so unless they only have a handful of horses, they map out sets of which horses go out in each wave, either the day before or at 5:15 am that morning.
So, as you see, the story does not add up. Don't get me wrong, I believe you. But I am telling you that the daily vet injections is almost assuredly B.S. or that NY trainer is at the least wasteful and at the most, a liar.
Thought you would rather know the truth and the realities of what things should be, rather than not. Sorry, owners deserve soooo much better.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Quote:
Many jockeys have been killed, maimed or handicapped from falls and pileups which should not have occurred if their mount had not been on bute. I have never quite understood why none of these unfortunate victims or their families thought of suing the connections of the horse involved: they had a much better case in court than many plaintiffs who win damages. Perhaps we need such a case to wake the industry up?


This is pathetic sensationalism at the expense of injured or killed jockey's and horses .
Whoever is responsible for those quotes has no idea what they are talking about and should be ashamed of themselves.

Beyond that nonsense, how much bute is actually given to "all" race horses. People make it sound as if they eat it like candy and have it in their system at all times, you know, "like Tylenol". Does everyone take a dose of tylenol every 4-6 hours everyday? Of course not.

The vast majority of trainers ( I would say all, but there are idiots in every field), do not train horses on bute ever . It is not needed. I rarely did, and NEVER ALWAYS.
This is irresponsible, scar tactic, B.S.

Can't believe I even spent this much time responding to it.


I have to agree with you,I dont train on bute and yes my horses get the min amount of bute 24 hrs before a race...Why?..1 reason is to maybe soften the sting when they run on a hard track,My other reason is if I dont use it,Lots of my competition will always have the upper hand,As little bute as I use I hardly think its really hurting them,If you have a horse who needs a lot of bute,That wont help him and yes you are endangering the horse and jockey.Those horses should either be retired of put on the farm for rest...JMO

[chadk66]

Anybody/group attacking bute as a drug worth attacking has zero credibility. the stuff is no different than you taking ibuprofen. If you think your going to break down from ibuprofen you need to be locked up in a nut house. there are far bigger fights to fight than bute. man the lunacy of some people/groups. blatant stupidity

[lamboguy]

the trainer i had is a top trainer to this day. i only send up young horses that are either 2 or 3 years old, they are all sound after our training otherwise we don't send them up. there are over 300 2 year olds training this year on our training center, its been that busy for a very long time now because we send out horses that are very well schooled at the gate, in the paddock and on the track.

i never gave a trainer permission to put a horse on bute. i never did until i sent this horse to a top trainer. if i remember right, i was being charged about $4 a day for bute.

was i robbed, well sure i was, that is how this game works, the customer is always getting robbed by the top trainer's. i never sent that many of my own to a trainer, they were usually sold and they had long career's. the last few years have been a different story, the horses aren't winning like they used to. and when they do win they win minor races. the game has evolved into more of a corporate type of proposition and my horses just don't fit in, so i have quit buying and training up babies. not only will i underperform the top guys, its unfair for the horse to go in with these horses that are further along than mine and get their heads handed to them.

its all well and good to knock a guy out like myself in this game, but people aren't that stupid, they have quit the game and you can't put to many new faces in the race tracks because they know whats going on and don't want to support this sport here any longer. for what its worth, i know of the some owner's that have quit running horses here and have gone overseas to run.

[lamboguy]

Anybody/group attacking bute as a drug worth attacking has zero credibility. the stuff is no different than you taking ibuprofen. If you think your going to break down from ibuprofen you need to be locked up in a nut house. there are far bigger fights to fight than bute. man the lunacy of some people/groups. blatant stupiditywho says that ibuprofen is any good for a human body when taken every day?

[lamboguy]

I have to agree with you,I dont train on bute and yes my horses get the min amount of bute 24 hrs before a race...Why?..1 reason is to maybe soften the sting when they run on a hard track,My other reason is if I dont use it,Lots of my competition will always have the upper hand,As little bute as I use I hardly think its really hurting them,If you have a horse who needs a lot of bute,That wont help him and yes you are endangering the horse and jockey.Those horses should either be retired of put on the farm for rest...JMOi have no problem with giving a horse bute the day before a race, my problem is giving him the stuff every single day the horsei sin training.

[Ruffian1]

i have no problem with giving a horse bute the day before a race, my problem is giving him the stuff every single day the horsei sin training.

Like I said, this just does not happen unless the trainer is a complete idiot.

It's just not reality.

And the 4 dollars a day was just padding the bill. That stinks. But maybe it's the 4 dollars a day that allows you to believe that the horse was actually getting it every single day.

I know plenty of today's trainers that would never train daily on bute .

[outofthebox]

the trainer i had is a top trainer to this day. i only send up young horses that are either 2 or 3 years old, they are all sound after our training otherwise we don't send them up. there are over 300 2 year olds training this year on our training center, its been that busy for a very long time now because we send out horses that are very well schooled at the gate, in the paddock and on the track.

i never gave a trainer permission to put a horse on bute. i never did until i sent this horse to a top trainer. if i remember right, i was being charged about $4 a day for bute.

was i robbed, well sure i was, that is how this game works, the customer is always getting robbed by the top trainer's. i never sent that many of my own to a trainer, they were usually sold and they had long career's. the last few years have been a different story, the horses aren't winning like they used to. and when they do win they win minor races. the game has evolved into more of a corporate type of proposition and my horses just don't fit in, so i have quit buying and training up babies. not only will i underperform the top guys, its unfair for the horse to go in with these horses that are further along than mine and get their heads handed to them.

its all well and good to knock a guy out like myself in this game, but people aren't that stupid, they have quit the game and you can't put to many new faces in the race tracks because they know whats going on and don't want to support this sport here any longer. for what its worth, i know of the some owner's that have quit running horses here and have gone overseas to run.As a foreman for a Kentucky Derby winning trainer and well respected in the industry, i was shocked on how he conducted his business. He would purchase bottles of bute and tribrissin pills from the vet as a set cost. He would then bill out individual owners every time i would put the meds in the feed tub at almost three times what he paid for. He also billed out daily doses of Lubrysin when we never had any in the barn. Talk about padding a bill...

[lamboguy]

I have to agree with you,I dont train on bute and yes my horses get the min amount of bute 24 hrs before a race...Why?..1 reason is to maybe soften the sting when they run on a hard track,My other reason is if I dont use it,Lots of my competition will always have the upper hand,As little bute as I use I hardly think its really hurting them,If you have a horse who needs a lot of bute,That wont help him and yes you are endangering the horse and jockey.Those horses should either be retired of put on the farm for rest...JMOlet me tell you something, you are one of the few guys out there that rely on good horsemanship and not chemistry and get a fairly decent result for what you are up against in a top circuit.

[Donttellmeshowme]

As a foreman for a Kentucky Derby winning trainer and well respected in the industry, i was shocked on how he conducted his business. He would purchase bottles of bute and tribrissin pills from the vet as a set cost. He would then bill out individual owners every time i would put the meds in the feed tub at almost three times what he paid for. He also billed out daily doses of Lubrysin when we never had any in the barn. Talk about padding a bill...



Oh please do tell us the name of this fine trainer

[chadk66]

who says that ibuprofen is any good for a human body when taken every day?it's been prescribed by physicians for 30 plus years to be taken on a daily basis. especially those with arthritic conditions, etc. some people have their creatanine levels go up while taking it. most don't. but I also don't know a trainer that gives every horse bute every day. In fact most don't give it to horses that don't have a reason to be on it. I didn't even keep a jar of it on hand. Like I said, it is only beneficial if used for certain ailments and those are usually short term issues.

[chadk66]

As a foreman for a Kentucky Derby winning trainer and well respected in the industry, i was shocked on how he conducted his business. He would purchase bottles of bute and tribrissin pills from the vet as a set cost. He would then bill out individual owners every time i would put the meds in the feed tub at almost three times what he paid for. He also billed out daily doses of Lubrysin when we never had any in the barn. Talk about padding a bill...those practices are not exclusive to the equine industry by any means. ever bought a soda or ice tea in a convenience store?:(

[Ruffian1]

let me tell you something, you are one of the few guys out there that rely on good horsemanship and not chemistry and get a fairly decent result for what you are up against in a top circuit.

Man oh man, I am really sorry for what you have been through. You deserved so much better and I mean that.
But saying that very few rely on good horsemanship and not chemistry is just not fair. Nobody can be more upset with the chemistry end of things than I was when I left the game for as much that reason as any other, but I cannot call out the masses as the problem or bash groups or stereotype as a whole.
It is not only unfair but it is not correct. I was there way too long to be naive on the subject.
If you don't believe me, several other trainers have chimed in as well and from my short time here, they know exactly whats what.
Hope that helps., and again, I'm sorry you went through hell with some knuckle headed trainer.

[horses4courses]

So, with all the contributions here from trainers who have first hand knowledge of this matter, I have some questions.

Is there a problem and, if so, what is it?
Can it be fixed?

I'm no expert, but I know that if there are problems,
the time for dealing with them is long overdue.

Maybe, I'm barking up the wrong tree?
Everything is as it should be in the sport of horse racing.

[RXB]

The fact that the HBPA, which has not exactly been a leader in medication reforms/reductions, put out an article about the dangers of bute-- that speaks volumes to me. No reason to believe that the HBPA would sensationalize on such a subject. But I guess people will believe what they want to believe.

Interesting how the timeframe when Lasix and Bute became widely adopted is precisely the timeframe in which the average number of starts per horse plunged by close to 50%.

[Ruffian1]

The fact that the HBPA, which has not exactly been a leader in medication reforms/reductions, put out an article about the dangers of bute-- that speaks volumes to me. No reason to believe that the HBPA would sensationalize on such a subject. But I guess people will believe what they want to believe.

Interesting how the timeframe when Lasix and Bute became widely adopted is precisely the timeframe in which the average number of starts per horse plunged by close to 50%.

Great subject. IMO it is not "interesting", it is the whole exact reason. But not just because of who is racing but the entire breeding industry who now breeds to bleeders both male and female that NEVER would have been bred too in the 60s before Lasix was legal. IMO bute has very little to do with who is bred too but Lasix created a breeding mess that could only be fixed with a very long term plan and it would be very painful for many owners and breeders.
What a mess.

As for the HBPA, I have zero respect for the organization. Where I stabled, in Md., we broke away and formed the MTHA decades ago, which was inclusive of Md. because the HBPA was such a mess and played to their own agenda. They do nothing for me but get my blood pressure up.

[Appy]

I have spent my entire life raising, training, and running horses. One thing that is clear to me is a horse who can will, on his own, run in fine style with no drugs whatsoever.

[Ruffian1]

So, with all the contributions here from trainers who have first hand knowledge of this matter, I have some questions.

Is there a problem and, if so, what is it?
Can it be fixed?

I'm no expert, but I know that if there are problems,
the time for dealing with them is long overdue.

Maybe, I'm barking up the wrong tree?
Everything is as it should be in the sport of horse racing.

A problem with Bute? I do not think so other than the usual small minority that do not deserve to have a license, but as I have said before, you get that in small degrees in any profession.
So IMO, nothing to fix. Now, with Lasix, yes, much can be done to try and restore a stronger breeding colony. But you can't destroy whoever owns a bleeder or a horse bred to a bleeding sire or mare, you have do set start times several years in advance so people can do their homework and weed out the weaker sires and mares over several years.
Nothing can be done overnight. It took 40 years to get here, can't fix it in 2 but you can fix it in 5-10 IMO.

As for positives. They happen. So what you need, IMO, is someone with no skin in the game, that knows what the hell is really going on, that can properly interpret what happened and make the punishment fit the crime. No two positives are exactly alike. No two drugs are exactly alike. Case by case and really mean it, not kitty touch it or grandstand. Ultimately, some trainers should get years out of the game. Same with riders. Or in the most obvious and severe cases, life.

Give everyone fair notice but when the time comes, act swiftly, fairly, and without hesitation. Do that and watch the %'s drop back to where they should be. And watch the crooks get forced out of the game.

It isn't rocket science and it can be done. No question about it.

[chadk66]

So, with all the contributions here from trainers who have first hand knowledge of this matter, I have some questions.

Is there a problem and, if so, what is it?
Can it be fixed?

I'm no expert, but I know that if there are problems,
the time for dealing with them is long overdue.

Maybe, I'm barking up the wrong tree?
Everything is as it should be in the sport of horse racing.Are you asking if there is a problem with Bute? If so, then No there isn't. Put your efforts where an effort is needed. Bute isn't one of them.

[chadk66]

The fact that the HBPA, which has not exactly been a leader in medication reforms/reductions, put out an article about the dangers of bute-- that speaks volumes to me. No reason to believe that the HBPA would sensationalize on such a subject. But I guess people will believe what they want to believe.

Interesting how the timeframe when Lasix and Bute became widely adopted is precisely the timeframe in which the average number of starts per horse plunged by close to 50%.The HBPA is a farce. I would love to read the article, hope you can provide a link. If I had to guess, they are wanting you to worry about bute because they could care less if it was banned. then you won't spend time worrying about drugs that really do cause issues/harm to horses. It's a classic deflection.

[Ruffian1]

A problem with Bute? I do not think so other than the usual small minority that do not deserve to have a license, but as I have said before, you get that in small degrees in any profession.
So IMO, nothing to fix. Now, with Lasix, yes, much can be done to try and restore a stronger breeding colony. But you can't destroy whoever owns a bleeder or a horse bred to a bleeding sire or mare, you have do set start times several years in advance so people can do their homework and weed out the weaker sires and mares over several years.
Nothing can be done overnight. It took 40 years to get here, can't fix it in 2 but you can fix it in 5-10 IMO.

As for positives. They happen. So what you need, IMO, is someone with no skin in the game, that knows what the hell is really going on, that can properly interpret what happened and make the punishment fit the crime. No two positives are exactly alike. No two drugs are exactly alike. Case by case and really mean it, not kitty touch it or grandstand. Ultimately, some trainers should get years out of the game. Same with riders. Or in the most obvious and severe cases, life.

Give everyone fair notice but when the time comes, act swiftly, fairly, and without hesitation. Do that and watch the %'s drop back to where they should be. And watch the crooks get forced out of the game.

It isn't rocket science and it can be done. No question about it.

As a follow up, vets would be very much included in the penalty discussion. People know who the risk takers are. They would be warned once prior too, and slammed hard if found guilty.
Instead of searching the trainers tack room and " just like that" finding a loaded syringe in the top middle drawer, ( you can't make up a more ridiculous scenario), and giving him 10 years for reasons that had nothing to do with the customer or the betterment of the game, search the vets, and all UPS deliveries to the stable gate.

All you have to do is WANT too and the game can be as great or as shady as each jurisdiction wants it too be.

[RXB]

The HBPA is a farce. I would love to read the article, hope you can provide a link. If I had to guess, they are wanting you to worry about bute because they could care less if it was banned. then you won't spend time worrying about drugs that really do cause issues/harm to horses. It's a classic deflection.

I did provide a link, earlier in the thread.

[Stillriledup]

A problem with Bute? I do not think so other than the usual small minority that do not deserve to have a license, but as I have said before, you get that in small degrees in any profession.
So IMO, nothing to fix. Now, with Lasix, yes, much can be done to try and restore a stronger breeding colony. But you can't destroy whoever owns a bleeder or a horse bred to a bleeding sire or mare, you have do set start times several years in advance so people can do their homework and weed out the weaker sires and mares over several years.
Nothing can be done overnight. It took 40 years to get here, can't fix it in 2 but you can fix it in 5-10 IMO.

As for positives. They happen. So what you need, IMO, is someone with no skin in the game, that knows what the hell is really going on, that can properly interpret what happened and make the punishment fit the crime. No two positives are exactly alike. No two drugs are exactly alike. Case by case and really mean it, not kitty touch it or grandstand. Ultimately, some trainers should get years out of the game. Same with riders. Or in the most obvious and severe cases, life.

Give everyone fair notice but when the time comes, act swiftly, fairly, and without hesitation. Do that and watch the %'s drop back to where they should be. And watch the crooks get forced out of the game.

It isn't rocket science and it can be done. No question about it.

I think these are noble suggestions, but the problem always comes down to tracks doing a cost analysis benefit see that the more people you suspend or even kick out, the more lawsuits you have to defend....and for what? Are people going to bet more money if you kick out a bad apple? Look at NY with Dutrow gone, are the betting handles rising because he's not there? Are people feeling they are betting on a more honest product and therefore are increasing wagering? I love your suggestions, but the "math" just makes no sense for tracks or the "game" to really clean it up.

As far as riders getting kicked out, they need to do a lot more "sniffing" to find out the jocks who need to be banned for life...not just make "examples" of buzzer guys and whatnut, get rid of the white collar criminals who are "Setting up" races and riding with larceny in their hearts.....but again, this would require tracks to put themselves in a position to defend lawsuits...and in order to get the "proof" that a jockey was really pulling white collar shenanigans, they would have to spend money to accumulate that proof...seems to them its not worth it or else they would be doing it.

[Ruffian1]

I think these are noble suggestions, but the problem always comes down to tracks doing a cost analysis benefit see that the more people you suspend or even kick out, the more lawsuits you have to defend....and for what? Are people going to bet more money if you kick out a bad apple? Look at NY with Dutrow gone, are the betting handles rising because he's not there? Are people feeling they are betting on a more honest product and therefore are increasing wagering? I love your suggestions, but the "math" just makes no sense for tracks or the "game" to really clean it up.

As far as riders getting kicked out, they need to do a lot more "sniffing" to find out the jocks who need to be banned for life...not just make "examples" of buzzer guys and whatnut, get rid of the white collar criminals who are "Setting up" races and riding with larceny in their hearts.....but again, this would require tracks to put themselves in a position to defend lawsuits...and in order to get the "proof" that a jockey was really pulling white collar shenanigans, they would have to spend money to accumulate that proof...seems to them its not worth it or else they would be doing it.

Yes, a superior product always costs more. That holds true in many areas. So it comes down to what is in your heart.
If I owned a track, I would not follow the standard , I would set it. I tried that as a trainer and I do that today as a home builder. The day I am only as good as some and not trying to be better than most, is the day I quit.

As for the lawyers, Md. always had a group on retainer . Frank, Marty, and the ownership way back were all lawyers.
It's nice to see Tim trying to clean up Md. racing. Too late for many but it's never too late to do the right thing.
Being private property, they can play that card and it's see you later.

Sometimes you can't worry about what might happen if you do the right thing, you need to ask yourself what might happen if you don't.

[Stillriledup]

Yes, a superior product always costs more. That holds true in many areas. So it comes down to what is in your heart.
If I owned a track, I would not follow the standard , I would set it. I tried that as a trainer and I do that today as a home builder. The day I am only as good as some and not trying to be better than most, is the day I quit.

As for the lawyers, Md. always had a group on retainer . Frank, Marty, and the ownership way back were all lawyers.
It's nice to see Tim trying to clean up Md. racing. Too late for many but it's never too late to do the right thing.
Being private property, they can play that card and it's see you later.

Sometimes you can't worry about what might happen if you do the right thing, you need to ask yourself what might happen if you don't.

I hear you, totally agree, the same things would be happening at my track, you have to spend the money in order to clean up the game.

Its a shame that big track owners aren't really in the forefront of taking the bull by the horns and kicking out the cheats. All you hear is talk and penned letter promising this and that and yet, when you open up the PPs you see the 'usual suspects" plying their trade...you can tell how serious a track owner is by the names of the trainers...we all know who's cheating and they do too and yet, nothing gets done...its just talk.

[chadk66]

tracks won't be involved in the lawsuits the racing commissions will be. tracks shouldn't have to even be doing the policing, the commissions should be.

[Ruffian1]

tracks won't be involved in the lawsuits the racing commissions will be. tracks shouldn't have to even be doing the policing, the commissions should be.

Your right Chad.

But I know first hand of commissioners that ran straight towards the cheaters with their horses when it was at it's height. Sad but true.

As I was told in my early years as a hot walker, the games on the level, it's the people in it that are not. So true Mr. Berry, so true.

[Stillriledup]

Your right Chad.

But I know first hand of commissioners that ran straight towards the cheaters with their horses when it was at it's height. Sad but true.

As I was told in my early years as a hot walker, the games on the level, it's the people in it that are not. So true Mr. Berry, so true.

R1, im not sure if you said this in another thread, i'm thinking it was you but not sure, that certain owners seem to always gravitate towards the cheats and how those owners should get "punished" somehow....we all know the owners who are the usual suspects that bounce from one cheater to another and yet, they get to play the "dumb" card and pretend they know nothing about it.

[VeryOldMan]

As a follow up, vets would be very much included in the penalty discussion. People know who the risk takers are. They would be warned once prior too, and slammed hard if found guilty.
Instead of searching the trainers tack room and " just like that" finding a loaded syringe in the top middle drawer, ( you can't make up a more ridiculous scenario), and giving him 10 years for reasons that had nothing to do with the customer or the betterment of the game, search the vets, and all UPS deliveries to the stable gate.

All you have to do is WANT too and the game can be as great or as shady as each jurisdiction wants it too be.

You're crushing it in this thread, Ruffian. Couldn't agree more as a very long time fan of the sport.

[chadk66]

Your right Chad.

But I know first hand of commissioners that ran straight towards the cheaters with their horses when it was at it's height. Sad but true.

As I was told in my early years as a hot walker, the games on the level, it's the people in it that are not. So true Mr. Berry, so true.yea that's a pretty interesting way to look at it. I know just what your saying regarding the commissioners. pretty sad when you can't trust the people you need to be able to trust.

[Ruffian1]

R1, im not sure if you said this in another thread, i'm thinking it was you but not sure, that certain owners seem to always gravitate towards the cheats and how those owners should get "punished" somehow....we all know the owners who are the usual suspects that bounce from one cheater to another and yet, they get to play the "dumb" card and pretend they know nothing about it.

Yes, I did. I don't think I want to post the exact details though. Too many people in high up places in politics so you will have to take my word for it on this one. It is a juicy story, and I promised you some, but I won't feel comfortable if I do it.
Here is the thing though. I was very fortunate when I started out. I started with about 10 horses after leaving a highly successful outfit , won my 1st start, 3 of my first 4 starts and within 3-4 years, won a leading trainer award in Md. when the big guys were around. I got a lot of horses from owners when I was the "new kid in town" in the late 70's. In hindsight, and it never crossed my mind when I was young and dumb, I have to think that I got some of those owners because they thought I was cheating. Maybe I got the future commish because of that, I don't know. However, not one time did an owner ask me if I cheated or anything close to that. And for the record, I NEVER considered it. I was taught by a highly successful trainer who dedicated his life to the game, never ever cheated,and had a very clean record. Being his asst., if anything cheating had gone on, I would have known all about it. My record was very clean as well and many other trainers that came up under his shed row had very clean records as well. I would guess, if I listed 10-12 trainers that came up under my mentor, they probably won 15,000 races and counting, and not one of them are "needle or vet" people. Customers might think they are, or have read B.S.garbage and concluded one or two are, but they are wrong and I would swear under oath to that. We were taught the right way, and over the years, it continues to show for the ones that still train.

I do know that when I was growing I had plenty of haters , mainly smaller outfits that I ran right past. I get that. Makes perfect sense.
So when the cheating really started to kick off into the mid 80's or thereabouts, when that guy leaves me for a known and caught cheater, HE is the "new kid in town" and he collects a bunch of owners. Plenty of them just want to win, but not all were necessarily hopeful they could cheat I assume. So it's hard to make a blanket rule about all owners, or all anything IMO. That takes me back to someone that would look at things on a case by case basis, not uniform rules.
Our justice system has multiple levels of charges for everything from murder down to petty thievery. Each case has it's own story and the same goes for positives.
I see the names of the trainers in Md.( another one today) that are getting days and so far there are no surprises as far as I am concerned. I will let you know when there is one but nobody on the backside is the least bit surprised I assure you.
So if you dig deep into each trainers record, they are all different. Yet, the same penalty. I don't buy it.
The public might need uniformity to make it feel fair, but going back to law, sometimes it seems as though an ADA is not charging someone with enough in the public's eyes. But we don't know the whole story. Yes, sometimes it is for a lack of evidence. But many times it is because they know the ins and outs of the case and we do not. So it is my opinion that case by case would be the best. By doing that, the owners playing " dumb" would be weeded out .

[Ruffian1]

yea that's a pretty interesting way to look at it. I know just what your saying regarding the commissioners. pretty sad when you can't trust the people you need to be able to trust.

That right Chad. It's one thing to be an owner. It's quite another to be appointed by the governor or elected into a position of that stature.
Like it or not, you are held to a higher standard . It comes with the position .

[CryingForTheHorses]

Yes, I did. I don't think I want to post the exact details though. Too many people in high up places in politics so you will have to take my word for it on this one. It is a juicy story, and I promised you some, but I won't feel comfortable if I do it.
Here is the thing though. I was very fortunate when I started out. I started with about 10 horses after leaving a highly successful outfit , won my 1st start, 3 of my first 4 starts and within 3-4 years, won a leading trainer award in Md. when the big guys were around. I got a lot of horses from owners when I was the "new kid in town" in the late 70's. In hindsight, and it never crossed my mind when I was young and dumb, I have to think that I got some of those owners because they thought I was cheating. Maybe I got the future commish because of that, I don't know. However, not one time did an owner ask me if I cheated or anything close to that. And for the record, I NEVER considered it. I was taught by a highly successful trainer who dedicated his life to the game, never ever cheated,and had a very clean record. Being his asst., if anything cheating had gone on, I would have known all about it. My record was very clean as well and many other trainers that came up under his shed row had very clean records as well. I would guess, if I listed 10-12 trainers that came up under my mentor, they probably won 15,000 races and counting, and not one of them are "needle or vet" people. Customers might think they are, or have read B.S.garbage and concluded one or two are, but they are wrong and I would swear under oath to that. We were taught the right way, and over the years, it continues to show for the ones that still train.

I do know that when I was growing I had plenty of haters , mainly smaller outfits that I ran right past. I get that. Makes perfect sense.
So when the cheating really started to kick off into the mid 80's or thereabouts, when that guy leaves me for a known and caught cheater, HE is the "new kid in town" and he collects a bunch of owners. Plenty of them just want to win, but not all were necessarily hopeful they could cheat I assume. So it's hard to make a blanket rule about all owners, or all anything IMO. That takes me back to someone that would look at things on a case by case basis, not uniform rules.
Our justice system has multiple levels of charges for everything from murder down to petty thievery. Each case has it's own story and the same goes for positives.
I see the names of the trainers in Md.( another one today) that are getting days and so far there are no surprises as far as I am concerned. I will let you know when there is one but nobody on the backside is the least bit surprised I assure you.
So if you dig deep into each trainers record, they are all different. Yet, the same penalty. I don't buy it.
The public might need uniformity to make it feel fair, but going back to law, sometimes it seems as though an ADA is not charging someone with enough in the public's eyes. But we don't know the whole story. Yes, sometimes it is for a lack of evidence. But many times it is because they know the ins and outs of the case and we do not. So it is my opinion that case by case would be the best. By doing that, the owners playing " dumb" would be weeded out .

I admire your integrity..Love the fact that you are like me and came up the hard and proper way,Lots of owners dont understand that a trainer must have a foundation under them just as a new horse starting his racing career.I say its only a matter of time before many of these guys are caught.

[Ruffian1]

I admire your integrity..Love the fact that you are like me and came up the hard and proper way,Lots of owners dont understand that a trainer must have a foundation under them just as a new horse starting his racing career.I say its only a matter of time before many of these guys are caught.

Thank you sir. I really appreciate it.

Do you race in Fla.?

If so, where and for how long if I may ask.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Thank you sir. I really appreciate it.

Do you race in Fla.?

If so, where and for how long if I may ask.

Yes I race at GP,I won a owner and trainer title at the end of the last Calder meet which will go down in history as the last trainer to do that as Calder has closed .I have been racing here steady since 1995,Im stabled at Calder (GPW)..I have been training horses since 1982 and my name is Thomas Schell

[Ruffian1]

Yes I race at GP,I won a owner and trainer title at the end of the last Calder meet which will go down in history as the last trainer to do that as Calder has closed .I have been racing here steady since 1995,Im stabled at Calder (GPW)..I have been training horses since 1982 and my name is Thomas Schell

Then you would know of one of my very closest friends from back in the day who is now probably Director of Racing at Pearly Gates Downs, Bobby Umphrey. What a piece of work he was. I miss that knucklehead.

Congrats on the leading trainer at the last meet. Pretty cool story.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Then you would know of one of my very closest friends from back in the day who is now probably Director of Racing at Pearly Gates Downs, Bobby Umphrey. What a piece of work he was. I miss that knucklehead.

Congrats on the leading trainer at the last meet. Pretty cool story.
l

LOL..Yes bless poor Bob..He was his worst enemy ..He was very good to me,Lots were afraid of him but he was a big softy...And Thank you!

[horses4courses]

Anyone know what this is about?
Looks like it's good humored, but I'm not sure.
Posted on Twitter not long ago by Zoe Cadman:

Zoe Cadman ‏@zoecadman 31m31 minutes ago Monrovia, CA
Metzie Hobby posted this on FB I had to share @MoquettRacing97 @cresran @Scott_Hazelton #lovethis @NancyUryHolthus

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9rygsUCEAA5_FZ.jpg