Scott Lake

[upthecreek]

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/shared_content.cfm?id=1906

[Stillriledup]

Those other guys got kicked out under the "its about the integrity of the game" but this guy Lake gets to serve a suspension and come back?

[chadk66]

the owners must be on board with this stuff or these guys wouldn't have horses. how about penalizing owners for staying with these trainers. or penalize them for having multiple infractions under the same or different trainers.

[Stillriledup]

the owners must be on board with this stuff or these guys wouldn't have horses. how about penalizing owners for staying with these trainers. or penalize them for having multiple infractions under the same or different trainers.

No doubt this is true. An owner who stays with a cheater wants to cheat himself because if he or she didnt want to cheat, they would transfer horses to someone with integrity. I agree with this point. owners need "Demerits" that add up if you are constantly in association with cheaters.

[onefast99]

Different rules for different folks!

[chadk66]

I had an owner once that wanted me to hold his horse back in a couple races so he could get a good price on him to bet. Within ten minutes his horse was being led out my barn to another trainer. true story.

[lamboguy]

I had an owner once that wanted me to hold his horse back in a couple races so he could get a good price on him to bet. Within ten minutes his horse was being led out my barn to another trainer. true story.how did he want you to hold his horse?

[chadk66]

how did he want you to hold his horse?have the jock hold him back. happens alot more than most would believe.

[Inner Dirt]

How many years ago was it that Lake was claiming horses and working magic, winning at a ridiculously high percentage? Now it is pretty obvious he was giving the horses more than just carrots.

Must of been 25 years ago or so can't remember the trainers name but he turned into a genius at claiming horses at Los Alamitos and running them in 870 yard races. He would claim a horse for $2,000 (bottom level at the time) and climb the class ladder until the horse would win at $20,000 (top price at that time) and then someone would claim it away from him. The horse in the hands of the new trainer would end up back in $2,000 races before long unable to win there. The guy's secret wasn't discovered for quite some time. He was shooting the horses full of heroin which at the time wasn't routinely tested for. Wonder how many trainers look at the horse as a meal ticket and could care less about sacrificing the horses long term health to win now?

[chadk66]

How many years ago was it that Lake was claiming horses and working magic, winning at a ridiculously high percentage? Now it is pretty obvious he was giving the horses more than just carrots.

Must of been 25 years ago or so can't remember the trainers name but he turned into a genius at claiming horses at Los Alamitos and running them in 870 yard races. He would claim a horse for $2,000 (bottom level at the time) and climb the class ladder until the horse would win at $20,000 (top price at that time) and then someone would claim it away from him. The horse in the hands of the new trainer would end up back in $2,000 races before long unable to win there. The guy's secret wasn't discovered for quite some time. He was shooting the horses full of heroin which at the time wasn't routinely tested for. Wonder how many trainers look at the horse as a meal ticket and could care less about sacrificing the horses long term health to win now?I can believe that happening back then. Nobody tested for Heroin because at that time when you tested for it you could only test for it. you used the whole sample just for that so you couldn't test for anything else.

[no breathalyzer]

What happened :confused: 3 for the last 72? ... 7% trainer at Parx :confused:
14/199. Did he forget how to train? or been getting bad hay and oats?

[magwell]

What happened :confused: 3 for the last 72? ... 7% trainer at Parx :confused:
14/199. Did he forget how to train? or been getting bad hay and oats?It's called a slump......

[Stillriledup]

What happened :confused: 3 for the last 72? ... 7% trainer at Parx :confused:
14/199. Did he forget how to train? or been getting bad hay and oats?

Hmmmm. Interesting and most likely coincidental. :liar:

[cbp]

He's at the point where he's probably actually considering getting them out of the barn for gallops and workouts. The days of shooting them up and not training them appear over. Sucks when you lose your pusher, I suppose

[onefast99]

the owners must be on board with this stuff or these guys wouldn't have horses. how about penalizing owners for staying with these trainers. or penalize them for having multiple infractions under the same or different trainers.It is very difficult to prove an owner had any knowledge of a trainer using an illegal substance on their horse(s). The trainer is first in line punishment wise until he or she blames it on the vet!

[Track Phantom]

It is very difficult to prove an owner had any knowledge of a trainer using an illegal substance on their horse(s). The trainer is first in line punishment wise until he or she blames it on the vet!
This may be true. However, if there were punishments for owners who have reached a certain threshold of violations for "their" trainers, it would force owners who want to run honestly to look for honest trainers. It could have a positive impact, longterm.

[NorCalGreg]

I had an owner once that wanted me to hold his horse back in a couple races so he could get a good price on him to bet. Within ten minutes his horse was being led out my barn to another trainer. true story.

Well aren't you just a noble little trooper. This entire game is played based on a horse's connections cashing tickets--it HAS to be this way. There isn't enough purse money in the lower ranks to even pay a horse's day to day bills, which you of all people chad, should know this.
This is the reason Finger Lakes, Zia, Charlestown, and at all the bush tracks in America run their horses 3 or 4 times a month, instead of showing workouts.

My entire handicapping is based on "trainer intent & deception". I can't 'cap the Derby, Breeder's Cup, Stakes Races, etc....because what you see is what you get with those races. They have no need to decieve anyone at that level--purses/ ancillary monies are enough to ensure an honest effort.

Cheap claimers are my game--if you were one of the extremely rare types in the lower claiming levels-- that was always on the up-and-up....and never considered cashing a ticket--you either never paid a bill--or didn't last long.

Just my opinion, chad. You have yours, I have mine.
later
-NCG☮

[Stillriledup]

It is very difficult to prove an owner had any knowledge of a trainer using an illegal substance on their horse(s). The trainer is first in line punishment wise until he or she blames it on the vet!

I'm suggesting that owners acquire 'demerits' for patronizing trainers who cheat. Most of these owners who stick with the cheats don't seem to be in a big hurry to replace a trainer with less than questionable morals because let's face it, cheating pays as the punishments are not strong enough deterrents.

If the punishment for robbing a bank was 6 months home confinement instead of actual prison, I'd be willing to bet a lot of money there would be a heck of a lot more people taking the shot.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

At most tracks, trainers operate under the absolute insurer rule. Basically, the trainer is responsible for the horse and its condition with respect to third parties. Under this rule, the owner of the horse isnt held responsible for anything. Very hard to prove otherwise.

[no breathalyzer]

It's called a slump......

presuming its a slump means you believe he will bounce back to old levels.. You might be waiting for a long time

[castaway01]

It's called a slump......

A few years back, Lake lost a lot of money to a crooked accountant and declared bankruptcy. His training operations never were the same after that. It's been since the 2000s when we really had the old "Lake off the claim", dangerous with any sprinter, 30% winning guy. This is a different trainer, run of the mill most of the time---though apparently not clean.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Well aren't you just a noble little trooper. This entire game is played based on a horse's connections cashing tickets--it HAS to be this way. There isn't enough purse money in the lower ranks to even pay a horse's day to day bills, which you of all people chad, should know this.
This is the reason Finger Lakes, Zia, Charlestown, and at all the bush tracks in America run their horses 3 or 4 times a month, instead of showing workouts.

My entire handicapping is based on "trainer intent & deception". I can't 'cap the Derby, Breeder's Cup, Stakes Races, etc....because what you see is what you get with those races. They have no need to decieve anyone at that level--purses/ ancillary monies are enough to ensure an honest effort.

Cheap claimers are my game--if you were one of the extremely rare types in the lower claiming levels-- that was always on the up-and-up....and never considered cashing a ticket--you either never paid a bill--or didn't last long.

Just my opinion, chad. You have yours, I have mine.
later
-NCG☮




I tend to disagree with you,I have always been on the up and up,Have always paid my bills and I dont gamble my money!..Ive always had cheap claimers and Im still going training 30+ years.I agree with Chad,I couldnt sleep at night if I was a cheat., You may cheat a few times and not get caught but sooner or later you get that know on your door! Ive never been to a bush track myself but I love to run my horses 3 times a month if I can! They only run if they are sound and mostly always make a good showing of themselves.

[chadk66]

It is very difficult to prove an owner had any knowledge of a trainer using an illegal substance on their horse(s). The trainer is first in line punishment wise until he or she blames it on the vet!that's exactly why owners are never questioned.

[no breathalyzer]

that's exactly why owners are never questioned.

that's why i handicap owners

[Stillriledup]

that's exactly why owners are never questioned.

You can't 'convict' an owner on an isolated incident, but owners stick with known cheats and their trainers rack up violations, at what point does the owner NOT get to play dumb?

[EMD4ME]

that's why i handicap owners

You have me thinking....

I've been annoyed for years that DRF formulator has Trainer/OWNER stats for almost every meet but NYRA.

I find that to be an interesting thing to look at and have had some very good prices uncovering owners and their tendencies.

I learned that from Dave Litfin back in the day. I would cut out the PP's of the winner's profile and paste it to a book. This helped me see who's doing what when etc.

I'm going to reach out to DRF and see why they "block" that filter for NYRA.

[NorCalGreg]

You have me thinking....

I've been annoyed for years that DRF formulator has Trainer/OWNER stats for almost every meet but NYRA.

I find that to be an interesting thing to look at and have had some very good prices uncovering owners and their tendencies.

I learned that from Dave Litfin back in the day. I would cut out the PP's of the winner's profile and paste it to a book. This helped me see who's doing what when etc.

I'm going to reach out to DRF and see why they "block" that filter for NYRA.

I do something similar, EMD. I'm not all fancy pasting them in a book, but I'm working on a maiden method, I clip out winners that meet the "profile", and can riffle through it when necessary.

[NorCalGreg]

I tend to disagree with you,I have always been on the up and up,Have always paid my bills and I dont gamble my money!..Ive always had cheap claimers and Im still going training 30+ years.I agree with Chad,I couldnt sleep at night if I was a cheat., You may cheat a few times and not get caught but sooner or later you get that know on your door! Ive never been to a bush track myself but I love to run my horses 3 times a month if I can! They only run if they are sound and mostly always make a good showing of themselves.

First off, thanks for not going off on me. A couple other horsemen took exactly what I posted just now----as a direct mortifying insult to God & Country.
I looked for an Ainslie book I have, but can't find it at the moment. He says appx 95% of all horseracing stables in America don't earn dime one. I've heard this same thing from Tom Worth, Henry Kuck, and others going back to the 40's. I don't know what's going on in FLA. MC,.....but all I have to do is open up the pp's at any track, and see the ridiculous class raises, distance switches, turf-to-dirt nonsense to know a horse is being manipulated.

Maybe not yours or chad's....but I and a lot of other handicappers see many trainer maneuvers and games every day. Have a good evening.

[no breathalyzer]

I tend to disagree with you,I have always been on the up and up,Have always paid my bills and I dont gamble my money!..Ive always had cheap claimers and Im still going training 30+ years.I agree with Chad,I couldnt sleep at night if I was a cheat., You may cheat a few times and not get caught but sooner or later you get that know on your door! Ive never been to a bush track myself but I love to run my horses 3 times a month if I can! They only run if they are sound and mostly always make a good showing of themselves.

Good luck tomarrow

[chadk66]

Well aren't you just a noble little trooper. This entire game is played based on a horse's connections cashing tickets--it HAS to be this way. There isn't enough purse money in the lower ranks to even pay a horse's day to day bills, which you of all people chad, should know this.
This is the reason Finger Lakes, Zia, Charlestown, and at all the bush tracks in America run their horses 3 or 4 times a month, instead of showing workouts.

My entire handicapping is based on "trainer intent & deception". I can't 'cap the Derby, Breeder's Cup, Stakes Races, etc....because what you see is what you get with those races. They have no need to decieve anyone at that level--purses/ ancillary monies are enough to ensure an honest effort.

Cheap claimers are my game--if you were one of the extremely rare types in the lower claiming levels-- that was always on the up-and-up....and never considered cashing a ticket--you either never paid a bill--or didn't last long.

Just my opinion, chad. You have yours, I have mine.
later
-NCG☮I rarely ever bet. Even on my own horses. Probably less then a couple dozen times over eight years. I did just fine on day rate and 10%. If you can't make it on that you are either a really bad trainer, are a very poor manager of money, or shouldn't be training.

[chadk66]

First off, thanks for not going off on me. A couple other horsemen took exactly what I posted just now----as a direct mortifying insult to God & Country.
I looked for an Ainslie book I have, but can't find it at the moment. He says appx 95% of all horseracing stables in America don't earn dime one. I've heard this same thing from Tom Worth, Henry Kuck, and others going back to the 40's. I don't know what's going on in FLA. MC,.....but all I have to do is open up the pp's at any track, and see the ridiculous class raises, distance switches, turf-to-dirt nonsense to know a horse is being manipulated.

Maybe not yours or chad's....but I and a lot of other handicappers see many trainer maneuvers and games every day. Have a good evening.I never played games with horses and refused to do that. Like I said, I fired an owner for even asking me. No other owner ever asked me to do that. I trained for some super good owners and a few pain in the asses. But only the one ever approached me about setting horses up so he could cash tickets. All my other owners weren't gamblers. They were in it for the joy of owning horses. Sure they bet a few bucks here and there but it was trivial money. I'm talking ten or twenty bucks on their horse. But all my owners knew I didn't run them unless I expected to win. I didn't give horses a race to give the horse a race. That wasn't my game. I was an athlete growing up and I treated the horses as athletes.

[NorCalGreg]

I never played games with horses and refused to do that. Like I said, I fired an owner for even asking me. No other owner ever asked me to do that. I trained for some super good owners and a few pain in the asses. But only the one ever approached me about setting horses up so he could cash tickets. All my other owners weren't gamblers. They were in it for the joy of owning horses. Sure they bet a few bucks here and there but it was trivial money. I'm talking ten or twenty bucks on their horse. But all my owners knew I didn't run them unless I expected to win. I didn't give horses a race to give the horse a race. That wasn't my game. I was an athlete growing up and I treated the horses as athletes.

Every horse you sent out--was ready to fire? On works alone? A full-bore all-out racing speed run.. start to finish?
We'll just have to agree we come from two different sides of the fence, chad

Thanks for responding. :)

[no breathalyzer]

that's why i handicap owners

prime example today ;)

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I never played games with horses and refused to do that. Like I said, I fired an owner for even asking me. No other owner ever asked me to do that. I trained for some super good owners and a few pain in the asses. But only the one ever approached me about setting horses up so he could cash tickets. All my other owners weren't gamblers. They were in it for the joy of owning horses. Sure they bet a few bucks here and there but it was trivial money. I'm talking ten or twenty bucks on their horse. But all my owners knew I didn't run them unless I expected to win. I didn't give horses a race to give the horse a race. That wasn't my game. I was an athlete growing up and I treated the horses as athletes.

I've had other trainers tell me that they had owners that would insist on running a horse over its head, usually so they didn't lose the horse. It can also be a way to darken form. What did you do when an owner insisted on running his horse in, say, allowance races instead of claimers with his reason being he didn't want to lose the horse even knowing the horse had no prayer?

[Donttellmeshowme]

I've had other trainers tell me that they had owners that would insist on running a horse over its head, usually so they didn't lose the horse. It can also be a way to darken form. What did you do when an owner insisted on running his horse in, say, allowance races instead of claimers with his reason being he didn't want to lose the horse even knowing the horse had no prayer?





i know some trainers that would tell the owner to come pick his horses up before he let them loose on the black top.

[chadk66]

Every horse you sent out--was ready to fire? On works alone? A full-bore all-out racing speed run.. start to finish?
We'll just have to agree we come from two different sides of the fence, chad

Thanks for responding. :)yep. why waste a trip. they only have so many in the tank.

[chadk66]

I've had other trainers tell me that they had owners that would insist on running a horse over its head, usually so they didn't lose the horse. It can also be a way to darken form. What did you do when an owner insisted on running his horse in, say, allowance races instead of claimers with his reason being he didn't want to lose the horse even knowing the horse had no prayer?had that happen a lot. it was a constant battle. I actually won a stakes race I had no business being in. But the owner was throwing a big party for a U.S. senator and wanted to take the whole brigade to the races. It was the only race written that day for a horse that was ready to run. So they made me enter it. I wanted to avoid the whole shit show so I entered another one in Chicago and left town lol. Left my wife to saddle it. Well needless to say he wins the darn thing at like 36 to 1. Blew my mind.

[onefast99]

I never played games with horses and refused to do that. Like I said, I fired an owner for even asking me. No other owner ever asked me to do that. I trained for some super good owners and a few pain in the asses. But only the one ever approached me about setting horses up so he could cash tickets. All my other owners weren't gamblers. They were in it for the joy of owning horses. Sure they bet a few bucks here and there but it was trivial money. I'm talking ten or twenty bucks on their horse. But all my owners knew I didn't run them unless I expected to win. I didn't give horses a race to give the horse a race. That wasn't my game. I was an athlete growing up and I treated the horses as athletes.So a "freebie" from the track wouldn't entice you to run a horse that you knew needed a work and you had the chance to pick up a check from the generosity of the track just for working the horse out in an actual race? You are probably amongst the .0001% of trainers who wouldn't do this....

[chadk66]

So a "freebie" from the track wouldn't entice you to run a horse that you knew needed a work and you had the chance to pick up a check from the generosity of the track just for working the horse out in an actual race? You are probably amongst the .0001% of trainers who wouldn't do this....semantics. If you knew the horse was gonna win it wouldn't be a workout, they call that racing. And then winning lol. contrary to popular belief there really are no freebies. way too many things happen that you can't control. When people "give" a horse a race it's usually because the owner wants the thing to run fit or not. Or the trainer has too damn many horses and can't get the horse fit unless he races him/her fit. And your right I'm probably amongst the .0001% trainers in many regards.

[no breathalyzer]

semantics. If you knew the horse was gonna win it wouldn't be a workout, they call that racing. And then winning lol. contrary to popular belief there really are no freebies. way too many things happen that you can't control. When people "give" a horse a race it's usually because the owner wants the thing to run fit or not. Or the trainer has too damn many horses and can't get the horse fit unless he races him/her fit. And your right I'm probably amongst the .0001% trainers in many regards.

I like betting trainers like you.. smaller operations that don't clown and always send them well ment

[chadk66]

I like betting trainers like you.. smaller operations that don't clown and always send them well mentthere are some of us that do that. not many but there sure are some. I don't know why people don't believe that. It's rather puzzling.

[onefast99]

semantics. If you knew the horse was gonna win it wouldn't be a workout, they call that racing. And then winning lol. contrary to popular belief there really are no freebies. way too many things happen that you can't control. When people "give" a horse a race it's usually because the owner wants the thing to run fit or not. Or the trainer has too damn many horses and can't get the horse fit unless he races him/her fit. And your right I'm probably amongst the .0001% trainers in many regards.When did a trainer ever listen to an owner especially when a horse may not be fit and that could result in the horse getting hurt? I'm sure you are a great trainer and do everything by the book, nothing wrong with that especially in a super competitive industry. What was your last stakes win?

[Saratoga_Mike]

semantics. If you knew the horse was gonna win it wouldn't be a workout, they call that racing. And then winning lol. contrary to popular belief there really are no freebies. way too many things happen that you can't control. When people "give" a horse a race it's usually because the owner wants the thing to run fit or not. Or the trainer has too damn many horses and can't get the horse fit unless he races him/her fit. And your right I'm probably amongst the .0001% trainers in many regards.

I suspect this assertion is completely false. If you measure the layoff stats of large stables versus small, I suspect the large stables have better layoff stats.

[NorCalGreg]

I suspect this assertion is completely false. If you measure the layoff stats of large stables versus small, I suspect the large stables have better layoff stats.

You're being kind, Mike. How many horseplayers, horsemen, ladies of horse racing, etc....think chad EVER trained a horse in his life?
The answer might be:

Yes....he trained "A" horse...that's it. Now quit telling fairy tales chad, please.
Unless you had Daddy's money to burn, you couldn't afford to do any of what you are saying. Whatever horses you claimed to start your "stable" would have quickly burned through your funds, with your noble ideals. Come back to reality, son.

[no breathalyzer]

You're being kind, Mike. How many horseplayers, horsemen, ladies of horse racing, etc....think chad EVER trained a horse in his life?
The answer might be:

Yes....he trained "A" horse...that's it. Now quit telling fairy tales chad, please.
Unless you had Daddy's money to burn, you couldn't afford to do any of what you are saying. Whatever horses you claimed to start your "stable" would have quickly burned through your funds, with your noble ideals. Come back to reality, son.


He's trained a lot of horses actually greg. i will leave that up to him if he wants it to be known or not.

[CryingForTheHorses]

have the jock hold him back. happens alot more than most would believe.


Very untrue statement..All I see you is degrade the game to turn people away.I dont care how long you trained horses,Posts like this piss me off.

[Stillriledup]

Very untrue statement..All I see you is degrade the game to turn people away.I dont care how long you trained horses,Posts like this piss me off.

I agree with you on this, Chad isn't correct.

I've watched tens of thousands of replays over decades and I'm specifically watching stretch headons to see horses who are far back off the screen and I can count on two hands how many times I've seen a jock ripping a live horse. In almost ALL cases, the jock ripping the horse was a starving jock who had very few mounts and was way down in the standings, the top jocks aren't holding back live runners. Also, ill add this, in the situations I've seen shenanigans, it was a lower rung jock who was closely affiliated with a barn known as a 'betting barn', so if you really pay attention how certain jocks ride for certain barns, you can find a golden nugget on occasion.

I can't remember the last time I was able to find a situation where a jock put a sleeper hold on a live runner and the horse came back to make me a profit.

[chadk66]

I suspect this assertion is completely false. If you measure the layoff stats of large stables versus small, I suspect the large stables have better layoff stats.you guys are the dudes with the stats. I'm sure you can look em up. however, there are only so many hours a day that the track is open for training. the more horses you have the harder it is to get them to the track on a regular basis. At a lot of tracks one rider can only get 6-8 horses tracked a day. With fifty head that would be five gallop boys on the payroll at a minimum to track these horses as much as they should be tracked. It's not a complicated math problem.

[chadk66]

When did a trainer ever listen to an owner especially when a horse may not be fit and that could result in the horse getting hurt? I'm sure you are a great trainer and do everything by the book, nothing wrong with that especially in a super competitive industry. What was your last stakes win?I believe it was the Edina Handicap. But that was sixteen years ago or so.

[chadk66]

You're being kind, Mike. How many horseplayers, horsemen, ladies of horse racing, etc....think chad EVER trained a horse in his life?
The answer might be:

Yes....he trained "A" horse...that's it. Now quit telling fairy tales chad, please.
Unless you had Daddy's money to burn, you couldn't afford to do any of what you are saying. Whatever horses you claimed to start your "stable" would have quickly burned through your funds, with your noble ideals. Come back to reality, son.not sure why the hate. I gave my name to breathalyzer because he asked for it in a PM. I shared quite a bit of information with him and answered his questions. If you don't think I've ever trained horses that's perfectly fine. your entitled to your opinion.

[no breathalyzer]

I agree with you on this, Chad isn't correct.

I've watched tens of thousands of replays over decades and I'm specifically watching stretch headons to see horses who are far back off the screen and I can count on two hands how many times I've seen a jock ripping a live horse. In almost ALL cases, the jock ripping the horse was a starving jock who had very few mounts and was way down in the standings, the top jocks aren't holding back live runners. Also, ill add this, in the situations I've seen shenanigans, it was a lower rung jock who was closely affiliated with a barn known as a 'betting barn', so if you really pay attention how certain jocks ride for certain barns, you can find a golden nugget on occasion.

I can't remember the last time I was able to find a situation where a jock put a sleeper hold on a live runner and the horse came back to make me a profit.

I'l give you a direct example cause i'm a nice guy :) Mr Rosenthal ..NYRA ..watch 8/26 race.. then watch the magic the next 2 races ;)

[NorCalGreg]

not sure why the hate. I gave my name to breathalyzer because he asked for it in a PM. I shared quite a bit of information with him and answered his questions. If you don't think I've ever trained horses that's perfectly fine. your entitled to your opinion.

I really don't want to nail you to the wall, chad. The man asked you for your last Stakes win...you give him the name of some Handicap race that doesn't exist.
Think we've beat this subject to death by now.
Anyway, I'm on a bit of a losing streak myself. Time to see if there's anything good @ Remington tonight.
take care
-NCG

[no breathalyzer]

I guess technically i'm not correct.. its really hard to strangle hold a horse off the screen. if hes truly live tho

[no breathalyzer]

also there are plenty of smaller barns that fire fresh off layoff and well meant

[Track Phantom]

You're being kind, Mike. How many horseplayers, horsemen, ladies of horse racing, etc....think chad EVER trained a horse in his life?
The answer might be:

Yes....he trained "A" horse...that's it. Now quit telling fairy tales chad, please.
Unless you had Daddy's money to burn, you couldn't afford to do any of what you are saying. Whatever horses you claimed to start your "stable" would have quickly burned through your funds, with your noble ideals. Come back to reality, son.
He trained horses for years and was a solid trainer. Didn't read the whole thread so not sure where all this is coming from.

[Chaka26]

I really don't want to nail you to the wall, chad. The man asked you for your last Stakes win...you give him the name of some Handicap race that doesn't exist.
Think we've beat this subject to death by now.
Anyway, I'm on a bit of a losing streak myself. Time to see if there's anything good @ Remington tonight.
take care
-NCG
Edina handicap was at canterbury park in shakopee mn

[chadk66]

Very untrue statement..All I see you is degrade the game to turn people away.I dont care how long you trained horses,Posts like this piss me off.you don't know what your talking about. at cheap tracks this happens a fair amount. your living in a fantasy land if you don't believe this.

[chadk66]

Edina handicap was at canterbury park in shakopee mnthank you, good to see most people know what they're talking about

[chadk66]

the first race I ever ran at old Balmoral park I won a stakes race. It was on the new track they built. That was a long time ago. won the thing for fun to. New track record at 7 furlongs lol. I don't think they had ran more than a half dozen races at that distance by the time the Stakes race was ran. The Jock that had been riding him in MN was supposed to fly in to ride him and the morning of the race I learned he wasn't coming. So I called Dean Kutz (he is also a native ND guy and a very good friend that rode many races for me) and he told me to put Randal Meier on him. So I did and he never showed him the stick. It was pretty surprising.

[chadk66]

Very untrue statement..All I see you is degrade the game to turn people away.I dont care how long you trained horses,Posts like this piss me off.I joined this site for one reason. To tell the truth about what happens in racing, both good and bad. I lurked here for awhile before I joined just to see what some of the discussions we're about. I was pretty amazed about all the misinformation there was out there regarding the goings on in racing. There are some amazingly good stories and unfortunately there are some not so good stories. I guess I haven't kept track of the good vs the bad stories in my regard. If you wish to hear more good stories I can certainly try to provide that. But just because what I say regarding races doesn't pertain to where you race doesn't mean it doesn't pertain to where I raced. I have nothing to gain or loose telling it like it is. I may or may not ever return to racing. I have no desire to burn any bridges in the industry nor do I have any reason to tell untruths to propel the industry. I think I've been pretty honest in that regard since I started posting here. There have been several people that have had some excellent private messages back and forth with me. I enjoyed them all. Some have been advice from owners. And some have been from people that work in the industry and desire to start training. I'm glad I was able to shed some light on things with them. I have numerous friends in the business still to this day. I get back to the track quite often and love going out there and kicking it around. I also own a mare and sell the foals. I would own running horses if I felt it made financial sense for me at this time but it doesn't. The young lad that was the best man in our wedding shoes horses and is an amazing farrier.
I have no reason or desire to say anything negative about the industry unless it's deserved. It is what it is.

[onefast99]

you guys are the dudes with the stats. I'm sure you can look em up. however, there are only so many hours a day that the track is open for training. the more horses you have the harder it is to get them to the track on a regular basis. At a lot of tracks one rider can only get 6-8 horses tracked a day. With fifty head that would be five gallop boys on the payroll at a minimum to track these horses as much as they should be tracked. It's not a complicated math problem. Jocks will come over all day long and work horses especially hungry ones who want your business. No need for payroll they work as independent contractors. Just last year at GP I saw where several jocks who were just coming back from injuries came over to our barn and asked to work horses. Isn't this the norm at every track?

[no breathalyzer]

the first race I ever ran at old Balmoral park I won a stakes race. It was on the new track they built. That was a long time ago. won the thing for fun to. New track record at 7 furlongs lol. I don't think they had ran more than a half dozen races at that distance by the time the Stakes race was ran. The Jock that had been riding him in MN was supposed to fly in to ride him and the morning of the race I learned he wasn't coming. So I called Dean Kutz (he is also a native ND guy and a very good friend that rode many races for me) and he told me to put Randal Meier on him. So I did and he never showed him the stick. It was pretty surprising.

excellent rider in his prime

[Donttellmeshowme]

Jocks will come over all day long and work horses especially hungry ones who want your business. No need for payroll they work as independent contractors. Just last year at GP I saw where several jocks who were just coming back from injuries came over to our barn and asked to work horses. Isn't this the norm at every track?




Yes......

[Saratoga_Mike]

you guys are the dudes with the stats. I'm sure you can look em up. however, there are only so many hours a day that the track is open for training. the more horses you have the harder it is to get them to the track on a regular basis. At a lot of tracks one rider can only get 6-8 horses tracked a day. With fifty head that would be five gallop boys on the payroll at a minimum to track these horses as much as they should be tracked. It's not a complicated math problem.

Chad,

Please show me all the low-percentage (with horses off layoffs or otherwise) large stables. They don't exist. Large stables may have losing streaks, but if the losing streaks last for long periods of time, the large stable becomes a mid-sized or small stable. I don't even understand your argument above. You simple hire more exercise riders. How many horses do Todd Pletcher and Chad Brown train? I'd guess between 100 to 200 each. Their horses are certainly sharp off layoffs.

The argument that a small stable will give a horse more personalized care and therefore a better shot of winning just isn't backed up by the numbers. When I owned horses, I used primarily small-stable trainers. Why? I liked the personalized interaction/the learning experience, which would not have been possible using a large-stable trainer. That's the argument to win over a potential owner as a small stable, not "we'll have your horses in better shape." Most small-stable trainers use your argument, though. It never bothered me, because I knew my reason for using a trainer with fewer horses.

[Stillriledup]

I'm thinking the 'personalized care' isn't necessarily that the horse will be treated better per se, but with a smaller barn, a hands on owner can have a conversation once in a while with his trainer and actually feel the trainer has heard of his horse!

Also, a trainer with a smaller barn might be able to 'enter better' and not get caught up in an assembly line of entering, if a trainer has hundreds of horses to enter, there might not be as much deep thought into the exact spot to run and how long to wait.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Also, a trainer with a smaller barn might be able to 'enter better' and not get caught up in an assembly line of entering, if a trainer has hundreds of horses to enter, there might not be as much deep thought into the exact spot to run and how long to wait.

No, this post is totally wrong. Large stables are large because they're successful. They're successful, especially the claiming outfits, by finding excellent spots for all of their horses.

[lamboguy]

No, this post is totally wrong. Large stables are large because they're successful. They're successful, especially the claiming outfits, by finding excellent spots for all of their horses.after i ran 2nd 8 times in a row to different Juan Carlos Gurero horses at Philly Park, i quit small trainers. try running against these guys without a big trainer and see how long it takes for you to go broke with good horses.

[Saratoga_Mike]

after i ran 2nd 8 times in a row to different Juan Carlos Gurero horses at Philly Park, i quit small trainers. try running against these guys without a big trainer and see how long it takes for you to go broke with good horses.

Putting aside the illegal advantage some might have/take, large stables have so many advantages over smaller stables: first call for top jocks, access to the top exercise riders, more sway with the racing office, less concern about losing one through the claiming box, resulting in better placement decisions.

[Stillriledup]

No, this post is totally wrong. Large stables are large because they're successful. They're successful, especially the claiming outfits, by finding excellent spots for all of their horses.

There's a difference between an excellent spot for owners and trainers. Sometimes the 'excellent spot' is to underclassifying an owners valuable asset so the trainer can keep his 33 pct win percentage in tact. Guys don't win 33 pct by entering horses actually worth 20k into 20k claimers.

[Saratoga_Mike]

There's a difference between an excellent spot for owners and trainers. Sometimes the 'excellent spot' is to underclassifying an owners valuable asset so the trainer can keep his 33 pct win percentage in tact. Guys don't win 33 pct by entering horses actually worth 20k into 20k claimers.

This is incorrect, too. An owner on the NYRA circuit spends approximately $40k/year to $45k/year to keep a horse in training/actively racing. Spotting a horse aggressively is in the interest of the owner and the trainer. However, if the large-stable trainer places his stock too aggressively and gives away the proverbial farm, he won't stay in business too long either. The large-stable trainers play this balancing act much better than most (not all) small stables.

[chadk66]

Jocks will come over all day long and work horses especially hungry ones who want your business. No need for payroll they work as independent contractors. Just last year at GP I saw where several jocks who were just coming back from injuries came over to our barn and asked to work horses. Isn't this the norm at every track?they will for awhile. but if you don't give them any mounts they won't be doing it for long. And honestly, jocks are the worst exercise riders on the track.

[chadk66]

Chad,

Please show me all the low-percentage (with horses off layoffs or otherwise) large stables. They don't exist. Large stables may have losing streaks, but if the losing streaks last for long periods of time, the large stable becomes a mid-sized or small stable. I don't even understand your argument above. You simple hire more exercise riders. How many horses do Todd Pletcher and Chad Brown train? I'd guess between 100 to 200 each. Their horses are certainly sharp off layoffs.

The argument that a small stable will give a horse more personalized care and therefore a better shot of winning just isn't backed up by the numbers. When I owned horses, I used primarily small-stable trainers. Why? I liked the personalized interaction/the learning experience, which would not have been possible using a large-stable trainer. That's the argument to win over a potential owner as a small stable, not "we'll have your horses in better shape." Most small-stable trainers use your argument, though. It never bothered me, because I knew my reason for using a trainer with fewer horses.your pointing out guys that train the best horses money can buy. There are a bunch of trainers that have 50 plus head of mediocre horses that rarely win off long layoffs. These aren't guys that are running at the premier tracks with a barn full of million dollar horses. These are middle of the road trainers with large barns. And 10-15 percent win percentages.

[Saratoga_Mike]

your pointing out guys that train the best horses money can buy. There are a bunch of trainers that have 50 plus head of mediocre horses that rarely win off long layoffs. These aren't guys that are running at the premier tracks with a barn full of million dollar horses. These are middle of the road trainers with large barns. And 10-15 percent win percentages.

Name them.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Stables grow large for one primary reason: success. Show me a small trainer who was consistently winning at an 8% clip who then turned his small stable into a large stable. There may be a few exceptions, but they're the exception to the rule.

By definition, a large-stable trainer wins at a higher clip than most (not all) small stables. Otherwise, he won't stay large for long. I can't believe we're debating this.

[Donttellmeshowme]

I dont know many jocks that will exercise horses. They want to breeze horses not gallop them.Especially at the bigger tracks i dont think you will find jocks that exercise horses.

[proximity]

after i ran 2nd 8 times in a row to different Juan Carlos Gurero horses at Philly Park, i quit small trainers. try running against these guys without a big trainer and see how long it takes for you to go broke with good horses.

what big or medium trainer was going to beat prime juan carlos guerrero at parx?????? :confused:

your trainer should've received a bonus and possibly a special eclipse award for those stats.

[CryingForTheHorses]

you don't know what your talking about. at cheap tracks this happens a fair amount. your living in a fantasy land if you don't believe this.

Im sorry,I dont live in a fantasyland and I still think this statement is untrue.

[chadk66]

Name them.Here's one to look. He's a good personal friend. It's just one such example. Bernell Rhone

[chadk66]

Im sorry,I dont live in a fantasyland and I still think this statement is untrue.great, you don't have to believe me. see how easy that was:cool:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Here's one to look. He's a good personal friend. It's just one such example. Bernell Rhone

He's an exception to the rule. Your whole argument is ridiculous. You don't become a large stable by not winning at a decent rate, a rate typically higher than small stables. As for Mr. Rhone, I read an article about him a few years ago. If I remember correctly, his owners love him. He puts a personal touch on the business. Anyway, think what you want Chad. Logic isn't on your side, but I doubt that will stop you.

[Stillriledup]

Wow Lake batting SEVEN pct at Parx.

Not much else needs be said, I think we all know what this means.

[chadk66]

He's an exception to the rule. Your whole argument is ridiculous. You don't become a large stable by not winning at a decent rate, a rate typically higher than small stables. As for Mr. Rhone, I read an article about him a few years ago. If I remember correctly, his owners love him. He puts a personal touch on the business. Anyway, think what you want Chad. Logic isn't on your side, but I doubt that will stop you.Bernell is a great guy and his owners do like him. And most of them don't take it too serious, it's more of a recreational thing for them. So they don't mind the low win percentages. I'll admit, I don't follow racing very close now or for the past ten to fifteen years. But I'd bet not much has changed in this regard. When I trained this was not uncommon. Smaller stable trainers often claimed off these large stables knowing the odds were pretty good you could improve the horse. Bernell actually trained for us for many years before I got into training. When I started I got a couple rejects of ours from his barn and made runners out of them. I watched this happen for years where people were claiming off these big barns and moving them up. I did the 40 head thing one year and that was enough for me to know I couldn't do the horses or the owners any justice. So I decided 18-20 was the max I was willing to take on because that was the point in which you loose touch of your horses and your help. And you owners quite frankly. But to each his own. It all depends on what your comfort level is with care for your horses.

The second year I trained I was involved in a breakdown study with the University of Minnesota Vet School. I knew the head at the school and the next two in line below him. They told me about the study and I said I wanted to be part of it. It was kind of a pilot study which would hopefully lead to funding for a large multi-year study. They installed sensors below the track surface in eight locations to monitor moisture content, temp. etc. Then they got ten trainers to put ten horses each into the study. At the start of the study they did x-rays of the front legs and ultrasounds of the front leg tendons. The horses all had to be sound to start the study. Then they had vet students visit the barns every day and take down all the information of the horses, training, food ate, water consumption, temp, etc. etc. Long story short at the end of the study I still had all ten of my horses racing and in the study. Another trainer had five and the rest had below that. Three had zero left in the study. That really surprised me so I asked the head vet why he thought that was. He indicated that there were two very obvious trends they noticed. One was the distance and frequency of training the horses received. And the other was the feed program they were on. I trained my horses dramatically more often and galloped further distances than any other trainer in the study. And it wasn't even close. There was an insane difference. And what was even more surprising was my horses were running more frequently. Most ran on a two week schedule pretty much like clock work. A couple were higher claimers that ran more like every three weeks due to not being able to fill races as frequently. Another obvious thing to them was the barn was so much less stressful than the others and the horses seemed far more content.

I also did a few years of research and development for the 3M corporation. They started out with five trainers doing development for them the first year they came out to Cby for this kind of stuff. Before the end of the summer I was the only guy they were working with because the others tired of the paperwork and interviews they had to do. So I spent a few years developing new products for them, most of which never saw the light of day. Several did. They had some pretty amazing and crazy things they were working on but just couldn't perfect. It was pretty cool to do but took alot of work. But I sure got alot of free product shipped to me at whatever track I was at.

[chadk66]

He's an exception to the rule. Your whole argument is ridiculous. You don't become a large stable by not winning at a decent rate, a rate typically higher than small stables. As for Mr. Rhone, I read an article about him a few years ago. If I remember correctly, his owners love him. He puts a personal touch on the business. Anyway, think what you want Chad. Logic isn't on your side, but I doubt that will stop you.The bottom line is this. You don't have to believe a damn thing I say. That's totally up to you. And this is my opinion and you don't have to accept or believe my opinion, once again that is up to you. All I've done is offer up information regarding what goes on with these horses as I see and/or understand it. My personal experiences and observations. I'm not quite sure why you have such distain for me. I obviously touched a nerve at some point. But that's ok I guess. If a person doesn't touch a nerve once in awhile they're not trying hard enough;) Life's not all Duckies and Bunnies

[thespaah]

I had an owner once that wanted me to hold his horse back in a couple races so he could get a good price on him to bet. Within ten minutes his horse was being led out my barn to another trainer. true story.
I don't blame you for doing that. Not one bit. I am a stickler for maintaining integrity. I don't care the reason.

[chadk66]

I don't blame you for doing that. Not one bit. I am a stickler for maintaining integrity. I don't care the reason.this guy bets a lot of money. Like $700-800 a race when he bets. So I can understand why he wants to do that. But I'm not going to get involved in that crap. He is a Grade A Jackass. He has now had that same trainer since 1991. That trainer is completely in the tank with this type of stuff.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The bottom line is this. You don't have to believe a damn thing I say. That's totally up to you. And this is my opinion and you don't have to accept or believe my opinion, once again that is up to you. All I've done is offer up information regarding what goes on with these horses as I see and/or understand it. My personal experiences and observations. I'm not quite sure why you have such distain for me. I obviously touched a nerve at some point. But that's ok I guess. If a person doesn't touch a nerve once in awhile they're not trying hard enough;) Life's not all Duckies and Bunnies

No disdain at all - just think you're incorrect on this matter.

[no breathalyzer]

this guy bets a lot of money. Like $700-800 a race when he bets. So I can understand why he wants to do that. But I'm not going to get involved in that crap. He is a Grade A Jackass. He has now had that same trainer since 1991. That trainer is completely in the tank with this type of stuff.

:D share the wealth i got all the time in the world to scope out a stiff and cash

[onefast99]

this guy bets a lot of money. Like $700-800 a race when he bets. So I can understand why he wants to do that. But I'm not going to get involved in that crap. He is a Grade A Jackass. He has now had that same trainer since 1991. That trainer is completely in the tank with this type of stuff.We had a similar type in our barn the guy was an owner of a few produce shops in lower Manhattan he was always walking around with 10-15k in his pocket. A few years ago he came to the Meadowlands on a Tuesday afternoon I had one in an allowance race she was 2/1 before he went to the window and made us 3-5. He then came into the winners circle and flashed the ticket to everyone including Joe Bravo, my trainer told him to take his horses elsewhere the following day. I guess some people just can't be discrete about throwing large sums of money around.

[chadk66]

We had a similar type in our barn the guy was an owner of a few produce shops in lower Manhattan he was always walking around with 10-15k in his pocket. A few years ago he came to the Meadowlands on a Tuesday afternoon I had one in an allowance race she was 2/1 before he went to the window and made us 3-5. He then came into the winners circle and flashed the ticket to everyone including Joe Bravo, my trainer told him to take his horses elsewhere the following day. I guess some people just can't be discrete about throwing large sums of money around.nope some just can't. This guy is one of em. One time we flew to Little Rock and drove on to Hot Springs to buy some horses. When we left the airport with the rental care the defrosters wouldn't work so we had a hell of a time driving, it was raining and just over freezing. Windows fogged up big time. So when we get back to the rental place he is giving the attendant some grief. Wanted a discount. The guy said he couldn't do that. They went round and round. We were late to begin with and it was going to be nip and tuck to make our flight and he is pissing around to get a $5 discount. I threw him $5 and said here's your discount let's get the hell out of here. He was a total tool

[Stillriledup]

We had a similar type in our barn the guy was an owner of a few produce shops in lower Manhattan he was always walking around with 10-15k in his pocket. A few years ago he came to the Meadowlands on a Tuesday afternoon I had one in an allowance race she was 2/1 before he went to the window and made us 3-5. He then came into the winners circle and flashed the ticket to everyone including Joe Bravo, my trainer told him to take his horses elsewhere the following day. I guess some people just can't be discrete about throwing large sums of money around.

I don't get the context of the story, he was the owner and bet his horse and gloated a bit and the trainer 'fired' him?

[NorCalGreg]

I don't get the context of the story, he was the owner and bet his horse and gloated a bit and the trainer 'fired' him?

LOL......"What??.....You bet $10 thousand dollars on your own horse??? Get the hell outta here"!!

[delayjf]

So I called Dean Kutz

Just Curious - I know Dean Kutz rode at AK-SAR-BEN, did you ever have a stable there?

[onefast99]

I don't get the context of the story, he was the owner and bet his horse and gloated a bit and the trainer 'fired' him?owned thse.

He was another owner who just couldn't keep his big mouth shut when it came to betting on the horses. He was a flashy bettor he always showed his large bets to people after the horse won. The trainer didn't think it was appropriate to show the jockey the ticket after the horse won the race and he told him to take a hike. Hope that clears things up.

[chadk66]

Just Curious - I know Dean Kutz rode at AK-SAR-BEN, did you ever have a stable there?Nope. I shipped in onced in the late 80's and won a 16 or 20K race though. Scott Baker rode him. Dean spent his last years riding at Cby.