Lets play guess the super.

[Stillriledup]

7 horse field. Results were 2-1 over 3-1 over 20-1 over 40-1. The 3 horses out of the super were: 6-5, 6-1 and 24-1.

What's a fair price for a buck.

Thanks.

[elhelmete]

7 horse field. Results were 2-1 over 3-1 over 20-1 over 40-1. The 3 horses out of the super were: 6-5, 6-1 and 24-1.

What's a fair price for a buck.

Thanks.

Pool size?

I'm gonna take a stab here and say $150 for a buck

[horses4courses]

Pool size?

I'm gonna take a stab here and say $150 for a buck

I say more than that, but not by much.
$200-220

[Stillriledup]

21k pool.

Is that your guess on what it DID pay or what is SHOULD pay?

[elhelmete]

21k pool.

Is that your guess on what it DID pay or what is SHOULD pay?

did

[Stillriledup]

did
thanks for playing.

Super paid 27.30 for a dime.

[horses4courses]

thanks for playing.

Super paid 27.30 for a dime.

Did you think the payoff was low?
In a seven horse field, those longshots will get
a lot more play in the 3rd/4th spots than
their win odds indicate.

20-1/40-1 shots in a field of 10+ runners will
pay much better if hitting the SUPR.
For a seven horse field, that payoff seems fine to me.

[Stillriledup]

Did you think the payoff was low?
In a seven horse field, those longshots will get
a lot more play in the 3rd/4th spots than
their win odds indicate.

20-1/40-1 shots in a field of 10+ runners will
pay much better if hitting the SUPR.
For a seven horse field, that payoff seems fine to me.

I thought it was a little low, i know what you're saying about the bombs being overbet underneath, so maybe it was a "Fair" price. its hard to get a lot of money with the 10 cent minimum when 2 of the top 3 contenders run 1-2 no matter what happens underneath.

[horses4courses]

I thought it was a little low, i know what you're saying about the bombs being overbet underneath, so maybe it was a "Fair" price. its hard to get a lot of money with the 10 cent minimum when 2 of the top 3 contenders run 1-2 no matter what happens underneath.

Okay....here's another game - a hypothetical one.

If the SFC pool was $21K for a dime minimum,
what do you think it would have been for a buck?

My guess is that it would be down at least 25%.

[Stillriledup]

Okay....here's another game - a hypothetical one.

If the SFC pool was $21K for a dime minimum,
what do you think it would have been for a buck?

My guess is that it would be down at least 25%.

I think that's possible in a huge field, but in a 7 horse field, i dont think as much.

Its funny how bettors don't realize how much more these things would pay on a 1 dollar minimum. You can box the entire field for under 100 with the dime option, for a buck, it would cost 840 to cover all the combos.. I know bettors are really in love with the dime option, but in shorter fields, it really kills the price, esp if you get bombs on top.

I dont mind a dime bet in a 14 horse field where the favorite is 7-2 and all 14 horses have some shot to hit the ticket, but there's really no reason to have a dime bet in a 7 horse field that's not even all that wide open.

I don't know, maybe that's just me.

[horses4courses]

I think that's possible in a huge field, but in a 7 horse field, i dont think as much.

Its funny how bettors don't realize how much more these things would pay on a 1 dollar minimum. You can box the entire field for under 100 with the dime option, for a buck, it would cost 840 to cover all the combos.. I know bettors are really in love with the dime option, but in shorter fields, it really kills the price, esp if you get bombs on top.

I dont mind a dime bet in a 14 horse field where the favorite is 7-2 and all 14 horses have some shot to hit the ticket, but there's really no reason to have a dime bet in a 7 horse field that's not even all that wide open.

I don't know, maybe that's just me.

The tracks have only one objective when they tweak these wagers.
That is to increase handle.
If that's not happening, they will go back to what they had before.

[Stillriledup]

The tracks have only one objective when they tweak these wagers.
That is to increase handle.
If that's not happening, they will go back to what they had before.

I suggested a 1 cent minimum....wouldn't that increase handle even more?

[moneyandland]

How much do you want that to pay? If you're gambling and like the 2, pitch the 6/5 and pick 2 horses for 2nd, and wheel the rest that's a $0.90 play for $27 return pretty good for a 2-1 winner, toss the 6/5 out completely it's only a $0.60 cent play... What did you expect $1,000 for $0.10? If I got $18 for $.10 I'd consider it fair without knowing any other factors at all of the race

You're looking at that 40-1 and seeing HUGE payoff, but by time you get to that spot in the super there's only 4 horses left that can hit the spot in a 7 horse field

[JohnGalt1]

Guess this super.

The year 1995. Hollywood Park. Twelve horse field. Favorite 7-2. Top 4 finishers--two at 6-1, two at 8-1 (I can't remember the exact order.)

Minimum bet one dollar.

Supers were relatively new to betting menu. So betters were learning how to structure their tickets and how much to spend.

I will report the payoff tomorrow.

[Ocala Mike]

There are 11,880 possibilities in a 12-horse field. I would guess that SF came back around $8K (but more wouldn't surprise me based on your caveats).

[Stillriledup]

There are 11,880 possibilities in a 12-horse field. I would guess that SF came back around $8K (but more wouldn't surprise me based on your caveats).

Good guess, its gotta be big, i'll guess 6,421.80 for a buck.

OR maybe its a trick question and there was no winners and there was a carryover or something. ;)

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Guess this super.

The year 1995. Hollywood Park. Twelve horse field. Favorite 7-2. Top 4 finishers--two at 6-1, two at 8-1 (I can't remember the exact order.)

Minimum bet one dollar.

Supers were relatively new to betting menu. So betters were learning how to structure their tickets and how much to spend.

I will report the payoff tomorrow.

Sounds like a maiden claimer, in which 4 of the top 5 betting interests were on the ticket, with perhaps the heavy chalk out? In theory, one could catch it by boxing the top 5 for $120, and assuming that the other 7 were hapless mules, perhaps not the worst bet in the world. I'll guess $3500.

The problem is that win odds are only part of the picture, at least with the more sophisticated wagering today. A horse that's 20-1 to win in a 7 horse field may actually be 6/5 to run somewhere in the super, if it's a herd animal, loves to hit the board, and getting a good pace and trip scenario.

The biggest ticket I ever cashed was a super around 1995 at Hollywood. Got up to the window to bet a $24 tri prt wheel, and found out there wasn't any tri wagering - only super. So, I rearranged my ticket quickly, cleverly played a $23 ticket with a 7/2 shot in 3rd place only (unintentionally) , and cackled when it came back with my key 15-1 shot on top, 11-1 second, 7/2 3rd, and a 9/2 horse 4th - 12 horse field, maiden claimer. At first I was excited just to reel in my $50 win place bet on the winner, then checked my other tickets and saw I had the super. Knew it was going to be big, and it was: $7700 for $1.

Came back the next day (was at Charles Town), quietly went up to the second floor to cash it at the IRS window, and didn't even get up to it before being accosted by a 10 percenter. That guy knew a guy with a strange mug a big grin must have signer, and zeroed in on me like a heat seeking missile. The only time I've ever had to get a check from the track....

[Stillriledup]

Sounds like a maiden claimer, in which 4 of the top 5 betting interests were on the ticket, with perhaps the heavy chalk out? In theory, one could catch it by boxing the top 5 for $120, and assuming that the other 7 were hapless mules, perhaps not the worst bet in the world. I'll guess $3500.

The problem is that win odds are only part of the picture, at least with the more sophisticated wagering today. A horse that's 20-1 to win in a 7 horse field may actually be 6/5 to run somewhere in the super, if it's a herd animal, loves to hit the board, and getting a good pace and trip scenario.

The biggest ticket I ever cashed was a super around 1995 at Hollywood. Got up to the window to bet a $24 tri prt wheel, and found out there wasn't any tri wagering - only super. So, I rearranged my ticket quickly, cleverly played a $23 ticket with a 7/2 shot in 3rd place only (unintentionally) , and cackled when it came back with my key 15-1 shot on top, 11-1 second, 7/2 3rd, and a 9/2 horse 4th - 12 horse field, maiden claimer. At first I was excited just to reel in my $50 win place bet on the winner, then checked my other tickets and saw I had the super. Knew it was going to be big, and it was: $7700 for $1.

Came back the next day (was at Charles Town), quietly went up to the second floor to cash it at the IRS window, and didn't even get up to it before being accosted by a 10 percenter. That guy knew a guy with a strange mug a big grin must have signer, and zeroed in on me like a heat seeking missile. The only time I've ever had to get a check from the track....

Great story, you're due to hit another one, its been 20 years!!

[raybo]

7 horse field. Results were 2-1 over 3-1 over 20-1 over 40-1. The 3 horses out of the super were: 6-5, 6-1 and 24-1.

What's a fair price for a buck.

Thanks.

In a 7 horse field, even with the favorite off the ticket, many tickets will have the top 2 favs on the win line, the top 3 favs on the place line, and everyone on the 3rd and 4th lines. I'm really surprised it paid as much as it did. The actual odds have little to do with the payout, it's the odds rankings, field size, and pool size that make the most impact on payouts.

[raybo]

How much do you want that to pay? If you're gambling and like the 2, pitch the 6/5 and pick 2 horses for 2nd, and wheel the rest that's a $0.90 play for $27 return pretty good for a 2-1 winner, toss the 6/5 out completely it's only a $0.60 cent play... What did you expect $1,000 for $0.10? If I got $18 for $.10 I'd consider it fair without knowing any other factors at all of the race

You're looking at that 40-1 and seeing HUGE payoff, but by time you get to that spot in the super there's only 4 horses left that can hit the spot in a 7 horse field

Personally, I want an estimated payout to be at least $30 for a dime, $300 for a buck, or I don't play it. I would not have played the super in the OP's first post, because of the short field and relative uncertainty of the public in the top 3 odds rankings. Lots of people would have put the 2nd ranked horse on the win line, and the 3rd ranked on the place line, over the rest. With that scenario there would be too many winning tickets to expect my minimum estimated payout to be met.

[Stillriledup]

In a 7 horse field, even with the favorite off the ticket, many tickets will have the top 2 favs on the win line, the top 3 favs on the place line, and everyone on the 3rd and 4th lines. I'm really surprised it paid as much as it did. The actual odds have little to do with the payout, it's the odds rankings, field size, and pool size that make the most impact on payouts.

But if "everyone" has the bombs in 3rd and 4th, how come supers with chalk on top and chalk on bottom don't show a "bump" in price? If an even money shot wins and the next 3 favorites are 2-3-4 the super pays bubkus.

[raybo]

But if "everyone" has the bombs in 3rd and 4th, how come supers with chalk on top and chalk on bottom don't show a "bump" in price? If an even money shot wins and the next 3 favorites are 2-3-4 the super pays bubkus.

When the favorite wins, regardless of odds, in a short field the prices will be low, period.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Great story, you're due to hit another one, its been 20 years!!

In the last few years I've hit small signers at Saratoga, the Naples dog track, and an OTB in Illinois. No need for a check though, but still a pain filling out the paperwork.

One of the nice things about ADW wagering is having a big day, and no paperwork to deal with until tax time. A few mouse clicks, and that money is transferred into the bank. No getting mugged in the parking lot.

[luisbe]

I think that's possible in a huge field, but in a 7 horse field, i dont think as much.

Its funny how bettors don't realize how much more these things would pay on a 1 dollar minimum. You can box the entire field for under 100 with the dime option, for a buck, it would cost 840 to cover all the combos.. I know bettors are really in love with the dime option, but in shorter fields, it really kills the price, esp if you get bombs on top.

I dont mind a dime bet in a 14 horse field where the favorite is 7-2 and all 14 horses have some shot to hit the ticket, but there's really no reason to have a dime bet in a 7 horse field that's not even all that wide open.

I don't know, maybe that's just me.

I agree that there should be a minimum of horses for dime super, 10?

[FrankieFigs]

In a 7 horse field, even with the favorite off the ticket, many tickets will have the top 2 favs on the win line, the top 3 favs on the place line, and everyone on the 3rd and 4th lines. I'm really surprised it paid as much as it did. The actual odds have little to do with the payout, it's the odds rankings, field size, and pool size that make the most impact on payouts.

This is a key that a lot of people don't take into account. I have a couple of friends that play supers and have the same issue when "short" prices are attached to their winning tickets. I have tried to explain this to them and they give me blank stares like I'm speaking Swahili or something... :bang:

[JohnGalt1]

The answer to the SA super payout.

It was not a maiden race. If I remember it was a $16 open claiming race.

The pay off was $19,328.40.

Again, it was a new bet, so no one knew how much of their bankroll to invest.

I think my ticket cost $48, so I'm guessing it was 2/4/4/6.

On December 2 the one dollar super paid $7863.60 that I hit, but I do not remember the odds, type of race, or the field size.

I seldom play supers anymore.

I find them too difficult to hit--that's good, since it is difficult and can be an expensive bet, as a percentage of my wagering handle.

And with the lower minimums the pay outs are relatively too low to play for the large payouts, except on big handle and big fields days for my wagering dollar.

Win and exacta bets keep me going.

Pick 3's and trifectas, when I play them can boost my bankroll.

Pick 4's, 5's 6's, and supers should put money in the bank---if fortunate enough to hit them.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

The answer to the SA super payout.

It was not a maiden race. If I remember it was a $16 open claiming race.

The pay off was $19,328.40.

Again, it was a new bet, so no one knew how much of their bankroll to invest.



Wow. That's quite the overlay. Nice profit on the new bet.

Back in 1987, the first (and only?) year the Birmingham Turf Club was open, it was not unusual to see quinellas pay more than exactas. I made quite a few hits on the Qs just keeping an eye on the hot combos in the exacta pool, but by the end of the 3rd meet that year the payouts were getting more in line with the Q paying roughly half of the Ex....

[Stillriledup]

3-1 over 3-1 over 55-1 over 27-1

That's all the info you get :lol:

[raybo]

But if "everyone" has the bombs in 3rd and 4th, how come supers with chalk on top and chalk on bottom don't show a "bump" in price? If an even money shot wins and the next 3 favorites are 2-3-4 the super pays bubkus.

In a 7 horse field, it's easy, and rather cheap at a dime or a dollar, to cover almost every possible combination, when the favorite is on top by itself.

1
234567
234567
234567

120 combinations at a dime equals $12, at a dollar equals $120. Lots of people can afford $120 on a single race, on a dollar base. Everyone can afford $12 for the dime super at a dime base.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

3-1 over 3-1 over 55-1 over 27-1

That's all the info you get :lol:

5 horse field in which the fav ran out.#cmonson. paid generous imo.

[Stillriledup]

5 horse field in which the fav ran out.#cmonson. paid generous imo.

The 3rd place horse paid 20 bucks to show.

Ok, it was generous. I usually love getting 12 bucks when I can get a 55-1 to finish 3rd beating the 1-2 shot. :D

[thespaah]

thanks for playing.

Super paid 27.30 for a dime.
so $273.00 for a buck...

[thespaah]

I thought it was a little low, i know what you're saying about the bombs being overbet underneath, so maybe it was a "Fair" price. its hard to get a lot of money with the 10 cent minimum when 2 of the top 3 contenders run 1-2 no matter what happens underneath.
And I imagine your contention is that the dime minimum "allows" too many people into the pool?
Sort of like, "they don't belong there"?..
Question....If the minimum was $1, do you think the pool amount would be
A. More
B. Same
C. Less

[thespaah]

I suggested a 1 cent minimum....wouldn't that increase handle even more?
Come on. Thats a straw man argument...

[Stillriledup]

And I imagine your contention is that the dime minimum "allows" too many people into the pool?
Sort of like, "they don't belong there"?..
Question....If the minimum was $1, do you think the pool amount would be
A. More
B. Same
C. Less

My beef is that if you lower the amounts, you make the bet easier to hit, there are plenty of easy to hit bets, why take a hard to hit bet and make it easier?

[Stillriledup]

Come on. Thats a straw man argument...

If the goal is to make the bet easy/easier to hit, why not make it 1 cent, that way, everyone can win, isn't that the goal of tracks who lower minimums, to get everyone to win?

[thespaah]

My beef is that if you lower the amounts, you make the bet easier to hit, there are plenty of easy to hit bets, why take a hard to hit bet and make it easier?
Concurring with another poster.....The lower minimum helps increase the handle...
Look, the pick 5 is a hard bet to hit. The min in some jurisdiction is $0.20.
At Meadowlands, the pick 5 rules allow for conso payoff and a carry over.
There are pools in that bet topping $500,000.. If hard to hit bets are your thing, bet those.

[thespaah]

My beef is that if you lower the amounts, you make the bet easier to hit, there are plenty of easy to hit bets, why take a hard to hit bet and make it easier?
Ok...its like playing a shorter golf course.
In order to score well, you still have to hit shots and make putts.
With the dime super, 50 cent pick 4's and 20 cent pick 5's, you still have to pick the correct horses.
Yeah, its "shot gun" wagering in that one can spread their wagers into many more combos.....Truthfully, there is less "handicapping" involved hitting multi horse vertical bets than hard hitting homework....
if the wager mins are more than the average budget can handle, they won't bet it.

[Dark Horse]

Cold 'cheating trainers' superfecta just now in R5 at SA. Not that hard with five red flagged in a field of nine.

[whodoyoulike]

I find this a very timely bump considering I've been recently thinking about this type of wager. Figures SRU would have thought about it before me and would be the one to bump it up.

Thanks JohnGalt1 for mentioning they started it in Cali around 1995, when I stopped betting exoticas I don't think they were offered which is the reason I've never paid any attention to them until now.

[InsideTheRaces.com]

7 horse field. Results were 2-1 over 3-1 over 20-1 over 40-1. The 3 horses out of the super were: 6-5, 6-1 and 24-1.

What's a fair price for a buck.

Thanks.

You should have played the .10 super race 8 at golden gate today $3,055.75

[Stillriledup]

You should have played the .10 super race 8 at golden gate today $3,055.75

Yikes! Great price considering winner was only 5-1

[NorCalGreg]

My beef is that if you lower the amounts, you make the bet easier to hit, there are plenty of easy to hit bets, why take a hard to hit bet and make it easier?

Point me in the direction of these "easy-to-hit" bets. I like the sound of that.

[Stillriledup]

Point me in the direction of these "easy-to-hit" bets. I like the sound of that.

Easy to hit bets pay Bubkis, that's the problem.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

My beef is that if you lower the amounts, you make the bet easier to hit, there are plenty of easy to hit bets, why take a hard to hit bet and make it easier?
I totally agree. Arapahoe Park (where super pools might be $1,400) tried the 10 cent super and found the pools were not only less than what they had been, but paltry. In a 10 horse race there are 5,040 combinations. A $1,400 pool of dollar bets covers AT MOST 1,400 combinations. Assume at 10 cents half the combinations are covered, or 2,520. The pool at least has to be $252 and will probably be a little more than that, but it is unlikely to approach $1,400. So maybe they are distributing a $500 pool, which means even if you snag the whole pool you get $375, which is a great ROI for a small investment but still - $375 for a pool shot? Needless to say, they went back to $1 supers.

One big difference between 10 cent and $1 minimums is that you often get payoffs to the "ALL" in 3rd or 4th at the smaller tracks with $1 minimums. I think the possibility of one of the low probability combos coming in can actually drive more investment in the pool. I hit a number of supers by playing ABC/ABC/ALL/(the two longest shots). Basically if I hit the quinella I was a guarantee to hit the super if nobody had the exact winning combo. I'd have passed the bet at 10 cents. I had a few pool shots this way.

I've talked to a number of professionals who have said the 10 cent super was the reason they've stopped putting money in the super pool. That makes sense when you think what they used to do was use their superior capitalization to overpower the pool. Can't do that anymore when anyone can buy a lot of combos cheaply.

[Stillriledup]

I totally agree. Arapahoe Park (where super pools might be $1,400) tried the 10 cent super and found the pools were not only less than what they had been, but paltry. In a 10 horse race there are 5,040 combinations. A $1,400 pool of dollar bets covers AT MOST 1,400 combinations. Assume at 10 cents half the combinations are covered, or 2,520. The pool at least has to be $252 and will probably be a little more than that, but it is unlikely to approach $1,400. So maybe they are distributing a $500 pool, which means even if you snag the whole pool you get $375, which is a great ROI for a small investment but still - $375 for a pool shot? Needless to say, they went back to $1 supers.

One big difference between 10 cent and $1 minimums is that you often get payoffs to the "ALL" in 3rd or 4th at the smaller tracks with $1 minimums. I think the possibility of one of the low probability combos coming in can actually drive more investment in the pool. I hit a number of supers by playing ABC/ABC/ALL/(the two longest shots). Basically if I hit the quinella I was a guarantee to hit the super if nobody had the exact winning combo. I'd have passed the bet at 10 cents. I had a few pool shots this way.

I've talked to a number of professionals who have said the 10 cent super was the reason they've stopped putting money in the super pool. That makes sense when you think what they used to do was use their superior capitalization to overpower the pool. Can't do that anymore when anyone can buy a lot of combos cheaply.

Totally agree.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79176&highlight=Evil+dime

[VigorsTheGrey]

One big difference between 10 cent and $1 minimums is that you often get payoffs to the "ALL" in 3rd or 4th at the smaller tracks with $1 minimums. I think the possibility of one of the low probability combos coming in can actually drive more investment in the pool. I hit a number of supers by playing ABC/ABC/ALL/(the two longest shots). Basically if I hit the quinella I was a guarantee to hit the super if nobody had the exact winning combo. I'd have passed the bet at 10 cents. I had a few pool shots this way.

I've talked to a number of professionals who have said the 10 cent super was the reason they've stopped putting money in the super pool. That makes sense when you think what they used to do was use their superior capitalization to overpower the pool. Can't do that anymore when anyone can buy a lot of combos cheaply.

Very interesting indeed! Thank you for sharing this important information with all of us...I did manage to hit a super at one of the South American tracks recently where my ticket looked like this: ab/abcde/abcde/abcdefgh for 10cents -cost me $12 in a 14 horse field.

Sure enough, one of the horses THAT I DID NOT HAVE IN THE 4th SPOT ran 4th....Thought "Of all the lousy luck!...My 14-1 wins, I get the place and show, have 8 horses to find their way to 4th...AND NO! The Horse Gods decide otherwise! A horse that I do not have runs 4th!...

...Disgusted, I lingered in seat for awhile, then got up to check my ticket just in case of a disqualification...My $12 voucher returns $500 for my $12 bet.

Nobody had the horse in 4th spot and that made it an "all" in the 4th spot...Since I had 8 horses in the forth spot, I actually had the 10cent super 4 times at $125 each! One never understands the will of the Horse Gods!

[JohnGalt1]

And I imagine your contention is that the dime minimum "allows" too many people into the pool?
Sort of like, "they don't belong there"?..
Question....If the minimum was $1, do you think the pool amount would be
A. More
B. Same
C. Less

My answer is C. Less

But more important is that the payoff for a dollar minimum is proportionally more than a fifty cent minimum which is proportionally more than the evil dime super, because of the total cost of the bet, and the fact that many have to leave more horses out.

The dollar minimum super may pay $1000, which may pay $450 for fifty cent minimum, which may pay $75 for a dime minimum.

In other words, if one did play a dollar super in the above race with a ten cent minimum, one would collect $750.

My money is seldom in superfecta pools anymore.

[appistappis]

9 horse race....3/5 misses.....it runs 6-1, 10-1, 6-1, 24-1

what does super pay.

[EMD4ME]

9 horse race....3/5 misses.....it runs 6-1, 10-1, 6-1, 24-1

what does super pay.

Can you tell us what the odds were all of all the horses?

I want to see the order of preference by the crowd.

Also, was the 3/5 a need the leader who might quit? Horse off a layoff? Major dropper?

[appistappis]

super pool was 35,000.....odds 6-1, 10-1, 6-1, 24-1, 12-1, 24-1, 10-1, 3/5

3/5 fave was fav thruout the betting, grass horse, race came off the grass.