Should Scott Zeron Go Back to Canada ?

[The Inside Scoop]

For months I have been telling everyone here that Zeron cannot compete in the USA and took a lot of flack for saying it. Someone even said he was a future hall of famer (I dont make this stuff up)

So months later here we are and the facts still do not lie. He currently has a .120 UDRS at The Meadowlands from 103 drives. Thats not a misprint its .120. His earnings for the year are at $121,644 from 114 total drives (11 at Yonkers)

I have mentioned that I am one that says he should admit failure and go back to Canada. Here are some Canadian stats you may be interested in. The list below are the top 10 money earners in Canada. All are ahead of Zeron in money earned, even a terrible driver like Anthony Macdonald. With the exception of the top 4 all have less drives then Zeron, yet still earned more money. His father with only 73 drives has earned more money. One would think a smart person would go back to Woodbine where he was successful and drove for live barns. They race 4 nights a week and race for better purses than The Meadowlands.

James Macdonald 295,476 (*WDB S)
Sylvain Filion 280,120 (*WDB S)
Trevor Henry 259,160 (*WDB S)
Simon Allard 210,120 (*WDB S)
Jonathan Drury 162,632 (*FLMD )
Jody Jamieson 156,510 (*WDB S)
Richard Zeron 147,210 (*WDB S)
Chris Christoforou 137,520 (*WDB S)
Anthony Macdonald 134,556 (*FLMD )
Douglas Mcnair 133,900 (*WDB S)


Please answer the follwing 4 questions:

Since he has failed to break into the upper echelon of drivers over a year period driving in the USA, should he admit failure and go back to Canada and drive?

Would you say his venture to the USA has been a successful one?

Would you be comfortable betting a $1,000 to win on him on a horse at the Meadowlands without blinking?

If you were an owner or a trainer would you make him your first call if you raced at the Meadowlands right now?

Once again, like me or not I tell it like it is.

[PaceAdvantage]

Once again, like me or not I tell it like it is.Who gives a ****?

Seriously...you're the harness equivalent of the two repetitive mopes over on the t-bred side of things here - Shemp Howard and Mineshaft (who I think is banned) - they have been posting for years about a certain hopeless trainer/syndicate out of Penn National...nobody likes to hear a broken record...

We get it man...you hate the guy...and he's not too good a driver...thanks for the stellar insight... :rolleyes:

[The Inside Scoop]

Somehow I knew this thread would get derailed. Why is it so difficult to answer 4 simple questions? Its not a matter of hatred. Its a matter of common sense after viewing factual information and asking posters to answer 4 questions regarding it to see what their opinion is.

Furthermore, I am not entitled to my opinion here? If I don't conform to what you want me to as a poster, I get ostrasized as I am not buddies buddies with you or the kewl crowd here.

I watch this forum sit idle for days with no topics and you have the audacity to jump on me when I ask posters to answer 4 questions. If they do not want to partcipate, nobody is forcing them to type anything.

I would not think a person i charge would get so offended with a post like mine. You need to come down off of your high horse and let the posters decide if they wish to answer 4 legitimate questions regarding a topic, instead of playing Judge and Jury and derailing my thread.

[PaceAdvantage]

Idle with no topics? You mean the harness section, correct? Since this is and always has been a thoroughbred racing board first and foremost, this should not be any surprise to you. So if you think you were "zinging" me by saying this, rest easy...I am unfazed...if you want to see new topics, come to the t-bred side.

With that said, I will repeat, who gives a flying ****?

You repeat yourself and repeat yourself and repeat yourself, like the two clowns I referenced earlier. That's what pisses me off...that's what bores me...

You're either one of two things. A spurned lover...someone who's lost a great deal of money on this guy...or some other personal involvement that went astray...sorry, that's three things...

Nothing else can possibly explain your obsession and constant need to continually degrade this man in public.

You made your point LONG AGO...MANY TIMES...now I, as admin, must point out the obvious to you...you've now officially crossed into the repetitive and boring zone. Stop beating this dead horse. It doesn't look pretty on you.

[pandy]

Who gives a ****?

Seriously...you're the harness equivalent of the two repetitive mopes over on the t-bred side of things here - Shemp Howard and Mineshaft (who I think is banned) - they have been posting for years about a certain hopeless trainer/syndicate out of Penn National...nobody likes to hear a broken record...

We get it man...you hate the guy...and he's not too good a driver...thanks for the stellar insight... :rolleyes:

Pace, don't let Scoop's posts fool you. Scott Zeron is one of the most successful harness drivers in the sport. He was the first driver in history to win 2,000 races, and the youngest driver to ever win the Little Brown Jug (one of the most prestigious races). In 2014, which was Zeron's first year driving in this country, he was in the top 4 at the Meadowlands and in the top 15 drivers in North America. His drives earned 5.7 million, which put him in the upper echelon of harness drivers.

Scoop keeps posting these silly UDRS stats and nitpicking the numbers but when you post something like the fact that only Gingras, Tetrick, and Dave Miller had better years at the Meadowlands last year, he seems to dismiss that. Zeron is 26 years old and in his first year driving at the number 1 harness track he had better stats than John Campbell, Ron Pierce, Andy Miller, Brett Miller, and Corey Callahan, and he finished 4th. And this guy thinks he is doing bad. We should all be doing that bad. From his driving alone Zeron had to earn at least a half million last year.

[wilderness]

His drives earned 5.7 million

From his driving alone Zeron had to earn at least a half million last year.

Bob,
I think perhaps the battery is getting weak on your calculator ;)

[pandy]

Bob,
I think perhaps the battery is getting weak on your calculator ;)

Let's see, I think they get 5%, so that would be around $300,000, but they also get a fee for each drive.

[lamboguy]

i think Scott Zeron is the best driver in the world, he brought me home a $190 horse to complete a pick 5 and was in the middle of a pick 4. that man can never do any wrong by me. the only reason why i stuck him in the tricks was because he was a driver change and i thought it was a positive one.

[The Inside Scoop]

Pandy

You make it sound like Zeron is a kid that's just starting out driving. He is in decline and his numbers show it. This year is an all time low to date. His numbers have dropped the past 5 years as I have posted before. He went from being ordained a hall of famer to being a guy driving 30-1 shots because nobody wants to throw him up first call on a live horse.

I challenge anyone here to refute what I have said. You can stick up for him as much as you wish but the stats never lie.

Pandy

I will go one further and leave you with this. Have you ever heard of the line "what have you done for me lately"? Nobody who owns or trains horses could care less what he did 6 years ago, it means nothing. They care only about what he does today.

To date this year his horses have earned a little more than 120,000 which equates to 6 Grand this month. He is on pace to make 72 grand this year. Hardly what people would call getting rich. If he sticks around he may get lucky and get some stakes drives when the babies come out so obviously his earnings will increase but I would venture to say that with 11 months left, this will be his worst year to date in both UDRS and in earnings since he has become a regular driver. I would further venture to say he will be replaced on Artspeak this year, if in fact that horse comes back sound.

I find it very interesting that nobody who has posted will answer any of my 4 questions. It's deflect, derail and refuse.

[pandy]

Scoop, this is January of 2015. In the year 2014, Zeron was the 4th leading driver at the Meadowlands, and that was his FIRST year driving in this country full time and first year driving at the Meadowlands. I'm not talking about 6 years ago. Anyone who finishes 4th at the Meadowlands is hard to knock and you sound nuts continuously knocking someone who is coming off a year that hundreds of harness drivers never had in their entire career.

You seem to dismiss the fact that he is coming off a year where only about a dozen drivers in the entire sport finished ahead of him and only 3 drivers at the Meadowlands had better years.

[The Inside Scoop]

Panda

You seem to forget he had a very low UDRS at The Meadowlands last year and that the driving colony was THE WORST EVER in the spring meet. He drove against guys like Ginsberg, Smith, Bonjourno, Marohn, Mike Lachance, Trace Tetrick etc. if he was a top driver one would think he should have dominated that group of drivers. The Meds today at this time has a group of drivers that tower over who he drove against most of the time last year. He has proven he cannot compete with a .120 UDRS against real drivers and that is fact. Upper echelon drivers do not drive 5, 50-1 shots a night, they are in demand and drive live horses because owners and trainers list the best as they give their horses a better chance because they are more talented. Is that so hard to understand?

[Tall One]

i think Scott Zeron is the best driver in the world, he brought me home a $190 horse to complete a pick 5 and was in the middle of a pick 4. that man can never do any wrong by me. the only reason why i stuck him in the tricks was because he was a driver change and i thought it was a positive one.


I thought I remembered you had that 95-1 shot couple Saturdays ago. I would've sent him a case of light beer for that one..:D

[LottaKash]

that so hard to understand?

Ok Scoop, we get it....

Why is it tho, that we never get to hear your opinions pertaining to other threads on topics that are offered in the harness section ?

We sure could use your wisdom concerning those topics, other than your denigrating other people ad nauseam, that is... :kiss:

[baconswitchfarm]

Please answer the follwing 4 questions:

Since he has failed to break into the upper echelon of drivers over a year period driving in the USA, should he admit failure and go back to Canada and drive?

Would you say his venture to the USA has been a successful one?

Would you be comfortable betting a $1,000 to win on him on a horse at the Meadowlands without blinking?

If you were an owner or a trainer would you make him your first call if you raced at the Meadowlands right now?

Once again, like me or not I tell it like it is.

Since no one else will answer I will take a shot. Although you do seem a bit obsessed. I think a bunch of guys stink but I don't waste time trashing them.
1-I do think he will eventually return within the next few years.
2 - I would say his initial move has been successful even though his popularity seems to be on the decline.
3- I wouldn't bet large win money on him there but that group would be really small right now at M1.
4-I don't think he is a first call guy but really only a few guys are.

With all that said I think he made his run . He came in with Gurals full support , was given a free property to live in if he committed to them as his home track. He was pushed by the race office to trainers because of this connection. After a while he has found his proper level at the bottom of the second group behind Brett and Corey but ahead of the also rans. He had every chance but has kind of settled in. Not terrible , just not great.

You have to agree with Pandys numbers because they are facts. But I would be willing to make a side wager on the over under this year for his earnings. My other observation is the way we all still worship M1. Saying a guy is 4th there isn't the accomplishment we all remember. 6th through 20th is now mostly a bunch of guys who couldn't get warm ups at 1980's M1.

[mrroyboy]

Answers

No 1 Maybe

No 2 Somewhat

No 3 No

No 4 No

Best answers I can give.

[Ray2000]

Any driver who can put up better numbers than Ron Pierce in 2014 for Win%, ROI% UDR(tie) is TOP flight IMO

Answers to the 4 Questions by OP

NO

Yes

N/A

N/A

[The Inside Scoop]

If top flight is a .120 UDRS I rest my case. Did I seriously just read that ? :lol: :lol:

[cmp92]

For months I have been telling everyone here that Zeron cannot compete in the USA and took a lot of flack for saying it. Someone even said he was a future hall of famer (I dont make this stuff up)

So months later here we are and the facts still do not lie. He currently has a .120 UDRS at The Meadowlands from 103 drives. Thats not a misprint its .120. His earnings for the year are at $121,644 from 114 total drives (11 at Yonkers)

I have mentioned that I am one that says he should admit failure and go back to Canada. Here are some Canadian stats you may be interested in. The list below are the top 10 money earners in Canada. All are ahead of Zeron in money earned, even a terrible driver like Anthony Macdonald. With the exception of the top 4 all have less drives then Zeron, yet still earned more money. His father with only 73 drives has earned more money. One would think a smart person would go back to Woodbine where he was successful and drove for live barns. They race 4 nights a week and race for better purses than The Meadowlands.

James Macdonald 295,476 (*WDB S)
Sylvain Filion 280,120 (*WDB S)
Trevor Henry 259,160 (*WDB S)
Simon Allard 210,120 (*WDB S)
Jonathan Drury 162,632 (*FLMD )
Jody Jamieson 156,510 (*WDB S)
Richard Zeron 147,210 (*WDB S)
Chris Christoforou 137,520 (*WDB S)
Anthony Macdonald 134,556 (*FLMD )
Douglas Mcnair 133,900 (*WDB S)


Please answer the follwing 4 questions:

Since he has failed to break into the upper echelon of drivers over a year period driving in the USA, should he admit failure and go back to Canada and drive?

Would you say his venture to the USA has been a successful one?

Would you be comfortable betting a $1,000 to win on him on a horse at the Meadowlands without blinking?

If you were an owner or a trainer would you make him your first call if you raced at the Meadowlands right now?

Once again, like me or not I tell it like it is.
1. Yes he should go back, but for other reasons. I think it was a bad idea to begin with. Regardless of the Slots program in Ontario, WEG has been a very competitive circuit with nice purses. Zeron was doing well up in Canada. He was getting lots of drives on contenders. Not to mention that the OSS and WEG put together a good stakes program. He would have had ample opportunity to make big money driving in those races. I know hindsight is 20/20, but Zeron didn't really make an impact in NYSS, PASS, or NJSS events either. Better to be the big fish in a small pond.

2. Maybe. I think one season is too soon. Outside of Artspeak, Zeron didn't really make an impact in stakes action. He did get the winning drive on Intimidate, but that seemed more like Zeron was a second choice (I believe Filion and Pierce were the primary drivers?). On the positive side, Zeron was hoping for a good stakes horse, and he seems to have found one in Artspeak. We'll have to wait and see how the stakes season plays out, but Zeron will get his chance in the big dances this year. What driver doesn't want a top notch 3yo pacing colt? Presumably the horse has a shot at the Meadowlands Pace, North America Cup, Breeders Crown, and of course, the LBJ. This year, at least in my opinion, might be the better indicator on Scotty Z. He'll have one of the early contenders in the 3yo division.

3. No, I really am not comfortable betting $1,000 on anyone.

4. No. As someone said, there are really only a few guys who are "first-call" caliber drivers. If I couldn't get Tetrick or Gingras then maybe I'd consider Zeron.

[The Inside Scoop]

Thanks to Roy for answering. As well, thanks to CMP and Bacon for answering the questions and giving a nice insight. It made for some great reading into what they see as far as Zeron goes as a driver and his future in the USA.

To Paceadvantage

It is my hope that you can now see that to have more action on the harness side of this forum, topics like the one I posted may offend some are still needed to have more people voice their opinion.


Some have chosen not to answer the questions which is their right. Others chose to defend Zeron for which they are entitled to their opinion (although I think they are way off in their assessment of his talents).

Pandy liked to go back at former years stats. I liken that to a once great baseball player who batted .300 and now is a washed up pinch hitter playing in Japan with 18 at bats with 12 strikeouts and 1 homerun. As someone who is supposedly a professional handicapper, would you tout Zeron as a driver to wager on, to paying clients, when hes batting .120 ? One would think that your credibilty would take a huge hit if that was the case.

[pandy]

Thanks to Roy for answering. As well, thanks to CMP and Bacon for answering the questions and giving a nice insight. It made for some great reading into what they see as far as Zeron goes as a driver and his future in the USA.

To Paceadvantage

It is my hope that you can now see that to have more action on the harness side of this forum, topics like the one I posted may offend some are still needed to have more people voice their opinion.


Some have chosen not to answer the questions which is their right. Others chose to defend Zeron for which they are entitled to their opinion (although I think they are way off in their assessment of his talents).

Pandy liked to go back at former years stats. I liken that to a once great baseball player who batted .300 and now is a washed up pinch hitter playing in Japan with 18 at bats with 12 strikeouts and 1 homerun. As someone who is supposedly a professional handicapper, would you tout Zeron as a driver to wager on, to paying clients, when hes batting .120 ? One would think that your credibilty would take a huge hit if that was the case.


This is only January 30th. Last year is not all that far off, that would be the year that Zeron won 5.7 million in purse money and finished 4th in the standings at the biggest harness track in North America. Your posts are absurd. I have more credibility in my pinkie than you'll ever have. You also have no idea how to bet horses. As I said in an earlier post, the only thing that matters when it comes to betting on drivers is how you do when you bet that driver, not the driver's overall record. If a driver wins 5 races in 90 starts but you bet him twice and he won one that paid $30, then you are way ahead on that driver. No one bets every horse a driver drives, you can't win betting any driver's drives.

The only reason why I waste my time debating you is because you posts are so ridiculous, and somehow you can't see it. You keep saying that a driver who just had an outstanding year didn't have an outstanding year, and this particular driver has already won more money and races than almost any driver in the sport's history did by the age of 27. You completely ignore these facts.

[The Inside Scoop]

I guess since I have no clue how to bet, I shouldn't have made one wager all night on Twin B Elite. Since I have no clue, I didn't spend any time to see her replay last start, so I just guessed that she was hung the mile uncovered from the 8 hole getting tortured and still hanging tough into a fast last 1/4 of 27.3. Furthermore I would never have known that a competent driver like Brett Miller would likely get her a nice cover trip and have her in a position to win at the head of the stretch. I totally guessed that she is a one move horse that needs to be covered as she has a tendency to hang late unless she gets totally tripped out, but then again since I havent a clue, that was just another guess from me and I havent ever saw her race in the past and hang at the wire when she looked like a winner. After all being clueless makes you unable to process information like that and store it.

You know something crazy happened and he did get her a cover trip (though the 2 in front of her were done at the head of the lane and he had to tip her a touch earlier than he might have wanted) and low and behold she won and paid $9.20. I so love not having a clue.

Just for shlitz and giggles I peaked to see if you had her in your horses to watch list on the DRF fishwrap and low and behold she was nowhere to be found. How was that possible that she didn't race good enough last week to be on a professional handicappers list of horses who raced well list? But then again what the hell would I know, I don't have a clue.

Before I forget, did you have her in your $2.50 picks you try to hock online? :lol:

[LottaKash]

But then again what the hell would I know, I don't have a clue.

:

You offer a "redboard " as a key to your argument..... ?

Next time be a dear would you, and give us a clue to your genius ahead of time...pretty please... :kiss:

[pandy]

The funny thing about this is, if someone took the time to do some research, I believe you'd fine that Zeron is one of the top 5 drivers in the history of the sport in both wins and money earnings at the age of 27. Many of these drivers didn't start making big money until their 30's. He's been driving for 8 years, has close to 2500 wins and he has over 35 million in earnings. Again, these are facts, not some goofy statements by a hater.

As a point of comparison, after his first 8 years, John Campbell, the all time leading driver, had about 2,000 wins and 27 million in earnings.

[badcompany]

Any driver who can put up better numbers than Ron Pierce in 2014 for Win%, ROI% UDR(tie) is TOP flight IMO

Answers to the 4 Questions by OP

NO

Yes

N/A

N/A

Ron Pierce is almost 60 years old.

Scott Zeron is nothing special and would not be a top driver at any B level harness track.

If Scott Zeron were to drive at Yonkers and the drivers picked their horses at random, Zeron would win less than 5% of his drives.

[pandy]

Ron Pierce is almost 60 years old.

Scott Zeron is nothing special and would not be a top driver at any B level harness track.

If Scott Zeron were to drive at Yonkers and the drivers picked their horses at random, Zeron would win less than 5% of his drives.


Uh, he was the leading driver in Canada, at A tracks, and he finished 4th in the standings at the Meadowlands last year, and that is certainly an A track since it handles roughly three times as much money per race than Yonkers does.

[badcompany]

Uh, he was the leading driver in Canada, at A tracks, and he finished 4th in the standings at the Meadowlands last year, and that is certainly an A track since it handles roughly three times as much money per race than Yonkers does.

Among this group, where would you put Zeron? I put him last. You might make a case for putting him ahead of Lachance, Patrick is primarily a trainer. IMO, he's still better than Zeron.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/2D5DB5BF-2668-43EC-A4FD-49DA40832904_zps2jidtfum.png (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/thinlizzy21/media/2D5DB5BF-2668-43EC-A4FD-49DA40832904_zps2jidtfum.png.html)

[badcompany]

Uh, he was the leading driver in Canada, at A tracks, and he finished 4th in the standings at the Meadowlands last year, and that is certainly an A track since it handles roughly three times as much money per race than Yonkers does.

Btw,

Meadowlands is not a A track anymore, as it doesn't run enough for the best drivers to make the most money there. That's why Sears and Brennan left.

[MutuelClerk]

1. He probably should go back to Canada. I wouldn't say he's a failure though. Like Pandy says his earning are pretty good especially for a guy his age.

2. Probably not. It isn't easy coming here and taking over the game. He has had success and some failures. Owner/trainers have go to guys and when you're the new guy you don't get first call like you may have at Woodbine/Mohawk.

3. Been in this game to long. Wouldn't bet 1000.00 on anyone. Besides that in most harness pools 1000.00 win bet would kill any kind of value.

4. I would not make him my first call. There are certainly better drivers out there. But like you said earlier Scoop the driving colony at the BIG M has really fallen off. So that in itself makes him one of the better drivers there.

I like Scoop as a poster here. I know I'm not a regular here but he brings something to the harness board. Maybe he is the jilted lover PA says. It's kind of like bad TV or radio, if you don't like what he has to say, you don't have to respond. Ignore him and move on. Any kind of talk, debate on a dying game can't be bad can it?

[Sea Biscuit]

You're either one of two things. A spurned lover...someone who's lost a great deal of money on this guy...or some other personal involvement that went astray...sorry, that's three things...



Pace: I think you have a point there. Scoop is a damn loser. Period.

Zeron is 14th in the driver standings in 2014. There are about 40 odd drivers who are below Scott in standings.

Question is why doesn't Scoop beat up on those drivers?

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/secretariat3/Scott_zps04764f8e.png (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/secretariat3/media/Scott_zps04764f8e.png.html)

[pandy]

That's what I don't understand. In both Canada and U.S. only 13 drivers had better years in the year just ended last month, and this guy keeps knocking him as if he is a bum. Another thing, as I've stated, I think that Zeron is actually one of the top 5 drivers of ALL TIME in terms of wins and money earnings by the age of 27. It's difficult to research but Zeron may actually be number 1 since he holds the record for the youngest driver to win 2,000 races and his lifetime earnings are already over 35 million, which might be the record for a 27 year old. Scoop's constant knocking of him made me look at Zeron's record and I was amazed at the numbers. Even last year, he was 26 when the year started and he had one of the best years that a 26 year old driver ever had in the history of the sport.

[badcompany]

I'd like to put this question to Brianjco:

Would Scott Zeron be the top driver at Buffalo without being given any special advantages?

[cmp92]

I'd like to put this question to Brianjco:

Would Scott Zeron be the top driver at Buffalo without being given any special advantages?
Yes. There's very little talent in that driving colony, with the exception of one or two guys. Place is a total dump.

[badcompany]

Yes. There's very little talent in that driving colony, with the exception of one or two guys. Place is a total dump.

Is he better than Billy Dobson or Shawn Gray?

I'm thoroughly unconvinced. :jump:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/3C411CC3-64E6-48B5-8061-AB3A694B4350_zpsygnc5xdy.png (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/thinlizzy21/media/3C411CC3-64E6-48B5-8061-AB3A694B4350_zpsygnc5xdy.png.html)

[cmp92]

Is he better than Billy Dobson or Shawn Gray?

I'm thoroughly unconvinced. :jump:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/3C411CC3-64E6-48B5-8061-AB3A694B4350_zpsygnc5xdy.png (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/thinlizzy21/media/3C411CC3-64E6-48B5-8061-AB3A694B4350_zpsygnc5xdy.png.html)
In my opinion, those are the two guys that are the exception. I think they both are solid drivers.

[pandy]

Btw,

Meadowlands is not a A track anymore, as it doesn't run enough for the best drivers to make the most money there. That's why Sears and Brennan left.

Are you for real?

The top 4 drivers in North America last year, Gingras, Tetrick, Pierce, Dave Miller. They are all Meadowlands regulars. Gingras earned more money than Sears and Brennan COMBINED.

The Meadowlands is not only an A track, it is far and away the NUMBER 1 track in North America. The problem with driving at Yonkers, yes, you get those big purses but the people that own stakes horses don't have the same respect for Yonkers so the Meadowlands drivers get most of the top horses to drive.

[badcompany]

Are you for real?

The top 4 drivers in North America last year, Gingras, Tetrick, Pierce, Dave Miller. They are all Meadowlands regulars. Gingras earned more money than Sears and Brennan COMBINED.

The Meadowlands is not only an A track, it is far and away the NUMBER 1 track in North America. The problem with driving at Yonkers, yes, you get those big purses but the people that own stakes horses don't have the same respect for Yonkers so the Meadowlands drivers get most of the top horses to drive.

Drivers drive for money and they make more of it at Yonkers:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/491502A0-F287-440B-B389-D05CCFE6CAA6_zps52m5nlx5.png (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/thinlizzy21/media/491502A0-F287-440B-B389-D05CCFE6CAA6_zps52m5nlx5.png.html)


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/DFC4AB79-3588-4FA3-B3BE-50E6B56B0EF7_zpsnvzayrh6.png (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/thinlizzy21/media/DFC4AB79-3588-4FA3-B3BE-50E6B56B0EF7_zpsnvzayrh6.png.html)

[pandy]

C'mon. Look at the stats. First of all, the fact is, the top 4 drivers in the country are Meadowlands regulars. That is a fact. Secondly, Yonkers runs more races, that's why Barlett won more money at Yonkers than Gingras won at the Meadowlands, he drove four times as many races. But, Gingras was still the number 1 driver in North America last year.

Are you a NY guy? You can't seriously think that Yonkers is the top track in harness racing.

[badcompany]

C'mon. Look at the stats. First of all, the fact is, the top 4 drivers in the country are Meadowlands regulars. That is a fact. Secondly, Yonkers runs more races, that's why Barlett won more money at Yonkers than Gingras won at the Meadowlands, he drove four times as many races. But, Gingras was still the number 1 driver in North America last year.

Are you a NY guy? You can't seriously think that Yonkers is the top track in harness racing.

You're talking about harness as though it's a legitimate sport. It's not.

It's being propped up by another industry, casino slots. Do you think Gural would've gotten involved in the Big M without the chance of a casino coming there?

So, any argument about whether this track or that track is better is silly. The drivers are doing what they have to in order to make the most money, before this thing collapses.

For Gingras, it's driving at harrahs and the meadowlands. For Sears, or Bartlett, it's Yonkers.

[mrroyboy]

The main problems with Meadowlands is they can only race 2 or 3 nights a week and they don't have stable facilities. That's why some horseman choose to enter or drive at other tracks. If Med had 5 day racing Sears and others might drive there full time.

[cmp92]

The main problems with Meadowlands is they can only race 2 or 3 nights a week and they don't have stable facilities. That's why some horseman choose to enter or drive at other tracks. If Med had 5 day racing Sears and others might drive there full time.
Even if they did race 4-5 nights a week, would they be able to pay out the purses that YR does?

I have no idea what the Meadowlands' purse account looks like, but a lot of the races are in the $8,000-$11,000 range. I suspect that they only race twice a week because that's all they can pay out and still make a profit. Unless a casino came along, the Meadowlands can't compete (in purse size) with tracks that have slots.

[badcompany]

Even if they did race 4-5 nights a week, would they be able to pay out the purses that YR does?

I have no idea what the Meadowlands' purse account looks like, but a lot of the races are in the $8,000-$11,000 range. I suspect that they only race twice a week because that's all they can pay out and still make a profit.

Or so that Gural loses as little as possible while waiting for a casino.

[The Inside Scoop]

Zeron drove at the following tracks last year

Tioga
Yonkers
Pocono
Philly
Meadowlands

At all of these tracks he struggled and at the end of the year he was abysmal in his production once trainers and owners realized he could not compete and no longer wanted his services. This bad spell has gone on for the past 4-6 months, not just the past 30 days. To me, that shows his lack of talent when competing against superior drivers.

Pandy says he was 4th in standings at The Meds and that's the only thing that should matter because it is the best track according to him. I say he needs a serious wake up call if he thinks that.

I would like someone here to throw up Zerons numbers at the Meds during both winter meets he has driven, when the top drivers in the sport drive there. Compare them to the Meds spring meet when the real drivers go elsewhere and the driving colony is putrid at best. I bet the facts will speak for themself?

The Meds are popular now but when Saratoga, Philly and Pocono open it will once again go back to being second fiddle to many barns unless the purse structure goes up. Thats why Sears left, that's why Brennan left. The fact is people want to race for the most money they can, while they can and who can blame them. Thats business.

I have stated numerous times here Zeron is now an afterthought. His time to prove himself in the USA has come and gone. It's been a year he has driven regularly in the USA and the past few months have been a disaster. Now he is what he is, has found his place as a 3rd tier driver and will continue to struggle no matter where he drives in the USA. That's just the way it is. The facts do not lie, they never do.

[badcompany]

In my opinion, those are the two guys that are the exception. I think they both are solid drivers.

I'm not not sure Zeron is better than either Kevin or John Cummings, or Jimmy Devaux, or Jay Randall, or Robert Merton, or Bruce Aldrich, or Jordan Derue who was much improved in the past year.

I'll give Zeron this much: He's better than Mike Baumeister :ThmbUp:

[The Inside Scoop]

Mike Baumeister :lol: :lol: :lol:

Updated stats this year for Zeron in North America

Money earned - ranked 47th in NA while driving at the best track according to Pandy but he was 4th in the standings at the Meds last year and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once :rolleyes:

Wins - unranked, unknown ranking, they don't go that low in the standings :eek:

UDRS - unknown ranking, no stats available for those who don't bat their weight :rolleyes:

I don't make this up ya know :jump: :jump: :jump:

[badcompany]

Mike Baumeister :lol: :lol: :lol:


I don't make this up ya know :jump: :jump: :jump:

Baumeister drives an old trotter at Bat/Buf, I'm blanking on the name of the horse, but it starts about 20 times a year and wins once. The once is when Morrill shows up for NYSS and picks up a drive on the horse. :lol:

[The Inside Scoop]

Baumeister drives an old trotter at Bat/Buf, I'm blanking on the name of the horse, but it starts about 20 times a year and wins once. The once is when Morrill shows up for NYSS and picks up a drive on the horse. :lol:

Please tell me he doesn't have a white helmet :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sea Biscuit]

I guess since I have no clue how to bet, I shouldn't have made one wager all night on Twin B Elite. Since I have no clue, I didn't spend any time to see her replay last start, so I just guessed that she was hung the mile uncovered from the 8 hole getting tortured and still hanging tough into a fast last 1/4 of 27.3. Furthermore I would never have known that a competent driver like Brett Miller would likely get her a nice cover trip and have her in a position to win at the head of the stretch. I totally guessed that she is a one move horse that needs to be covered as she has a tendency to hang late unless she gets totally tripped out, but then again since I havent a clue, that was just another guess from me and I havent ever saw her race in the past and hang at the wire when she looked like a winner. After all being clueless makes you unable to process information like that and store it.

You know something crazy happened and he did get her a cover trip (though the 2 in front of her were done at the head of the lane and he had to tip her a touch earlier than he might have wanted) and low and behold she won and paid $9.20. I so love not having a clue.

Just for shlitz and giggles I peaked to see if you had her in your horses to watch list on the DRF fishwrap and low and behold she was nowhere to be found. How was that possible that she didn't race good enough last week to be on a professional handicappers list of horses who raced well list? But then again what the hell would I know, I don't have a clue.

Before I forget, did you have her in y
our $2.50 picks you try to hock online? :lol:

I shouldn't have made one wager all night on Twin B Elite. Since I have no clue, I didn't spend any time to see her replay last start, so I just guessed that she was hung the mile uncovered from the 8 hole getting tortured and still hanging tough into a fast last 1/4 of 27.3. Furthermore I would never have known that a competent driver like Brett Miller would likely get her a nice cover trip and have her in a position to win at the head of the stretch. I totally guessed that she is a one move horse that needs to be covered as she has a tendency to hang late unless she gets totally tripped out

Brilliant Sherlock. Now try to do it before the races instead of redboarding.

You, sir, are a joke.

[badcompany]

C'mon. Look at the stats. First of all, the fact is, the top 4 drivers in the country are Meadowlands regulars. That is a fact. Secondly, Yonkers runs more races, that's why Barlett won more money at Yonkers than Gingras won at the Meadowlands, he drove four times as many races. But, Gingras was still the number 1 driver in North America last year.

Are you a NY guy? You can't seriously think that Yonkers is the top track in harness racing.

I meant to address this.

Number of starts is meaningless. It's about money. Would Bartlett trade his Yonkers earnings and starts for Gingras' earnings and starts at the Meadowlands? Of course, not.

It's a harness race. It only lasts two minutes, and it's not that strenuous.

The bottom line is that there is no top track. They're all on life support, including the Big M. The days of Campbell and O'Donnell and 20k in the stands are long gone.

[jtschmidt]

In response to that cheap shot of Pandys "handicapping" and posting chalk picks, I will say that Bob posts WAY more double digit M/L picks to hit the super ticket than Darin Zoccali does. It is just something I have noticed. Of course Pandy is also posting odds next to his picks and I have rarely seen him endorse a horse at 1/5 like you suggested ($2.50 winners).

Like he has said before, drivers like Zeron, Marcus Miller, Marohn...they may not have the greatest UDRS or stats in general at the Big M, but I would bet a $1,000 on them to win when a great overlay is present, which is often. Im a 20 year old student still trying to learn the game but I had no problem betting Zeron on Intimidate in the TVG when he was 13-1. Would I bet him at 5-1 because of Zeron? Hell no, but I saw 13-1 a slight overlay and loved the horse to begin with.

He should not leave because of a bad january. I would be trashing Bongiorno if you had to pick any semi-regular Big M pilot to pick on.

Joey

[pandy]

Last year I did very well with Marohn and Andrew McCarthy. Scoop is someone who only bets on certain drivers, and there is nothing wrong with that if that's what he feels he can win with.

But as I've said, no one bets on every horse a driver drives so the only driver stats that matter is how do you do when you bet on a particular driver. For me last year, Marohn was my top ROI driver because I hit him on a few longshots. I knew he was a good driver and that he could win when he has a horse that fits in the field on class and speed.

[baconswitchfarm]

In response to that cheap shot of Pandys "handicapping" and posting chalk picks, I will say that Bob posts WAY more double digit M/L picks to hit the super ticket than Darin Zoccali does. It is just something I have noticed. Of course Pandy is also posting odds next to his picks and I have rarely seen him endorse a horse at 1/5 like you suggested ($2.50 winners).

Joey


I think he was referring to selling picks for 2.50 not giving out 2.50 horses. I thought he meant it as a dig because successful professional players do not sell their picks. That is what I thought he meant.

[cmp92]

In response to that cheap shot of Pandys "handicapping" and posting chalk picks, I will say that Bob posts WAY more double digit M/L picks to hit the super ticket than Darin Zoccali does. It is just something I have noticed. Of course Pandy is also posting odds next to his picks and I have rarely seen him endorse a horse at 1/5 like you suggested ($2.50 winners).

Like he has said before, drivers like Zeron, Marcus Miller, Marohn...they may not have the greatest UDRS or stats in general at the Big M, but I would bet a $1,000 on them to win when a great overlay is present, which is often. Im a 20 year old student still trying to learn the game but I had no problem betting Zeron on Intimidate in the TVG when he was 13-1. Would I bet him at 5-1 because of Zeron? Hell no, but I saw 13-1 a slight overlay and loved the horse to begin with.

He should not leave because of a bad january. I would be trashing Bongiorno if you had to pick any semi-regular Big M pilot to pick on.

Joey
I would imagine the problem with Bongiorno is that he doesn't get any sort of attention or expectations that Zeron has. Bongiorno is primarily driving at Freehold and picking up scraps in C-2s. He's overmatched against the Big M regulars, but that's to be expected.

[cmp92]

Baumeister drives an old trotter at Bat/Buf, I'm blanking on the name of the horse, but it starts about 20 times a year and wins once. The once is when Morrill shows up for NYSS and picks up a drive on the horse. :lol:
He'll find his way to the winner's circle 3-4 times at Buffalo and then another 3-4 at Batavia.

[badcompany]

He'll find his way to the winner's circle 3-4 times at Buffalo and then another 3-4 at Batavia.

For his sake, I hope the guy has a day job ;)

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/2398d39b9e33650ef3880c98d9f394a0_zps8ea118d6.jpg

[badcompany]

Now, a second generation driver, who is the same age as Zeron, but is exponentially better is Ronnie Wrenn Jr.. That young man can drive :ThmbUp:

[mrroyboy]

Here is the thing. Scoop is entitled to his opinion. But I do think he should tone it down a little.
As far as Zeron he hasn't been doing so well lately but that's at Meadowlands which is a tough track. So there really isn't any right or wrong here.

[badcompany]

Here is the thing. Scoop is entitled to his opinion. But I do think he should tone it down a little.
As far as Zeron he hasn't been doing so well lately but that's at Meadowlands which is a tough track. So there really isn't any right or wrong here.

Yes, let's give Zeron some credit. He's most likely a better driver than Ray Baynes. :ThmbUp:

You guys need to concede to reality and recognize that Zeron is nothing special. I said it when Scoop started the first thread about the subject and I'm saying it, now. I saw him drive NYSS horses upstate and his performance was wholly unimpressive. I don't know Scoop, personally. I just call it as I see it.

And, so far this year the facts bear me out.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/5121ceaef355dabf831c5b48ace657e5_zps4bbed457.jpg

[Faceless Enemy]

19% itm from all those starts is pitiful. He just never seems to put a horse in position to win as of late. Just sits in, or can't get a horse off the gate good and has no chance from the onset. If this is just a slump it may be as bad as it can get for someone who is highly thought of in the industry. But reviewing some of the charts/replays he sure does seem lost out there.

[Ray2000]

Definitely a slump, but the reasons are unknown as far as I can find. He was hospitalized Dec 6?

I dropped my Twitter account but maybe some youngster here can follow him on Twitter and let us know..
Too many old geezers in this Forum :D

Just a aberration?
Drinking problem?
Eating problem?
Other personal problem?

Who knows, but that doesn't take away from his past performance.

Top flight Driver IMO

[The Inside Scoop]

I stand by my comments regarding Zeron. Any smart gambler who wagers regularly on horses can see he is lost at The Meds and has been for a long time. His time has already passed in the USA no matter what his fan club here says. The current slump is one that has been going on for the past 5 months, it didn't just start. Look it up for yourself, the stats never lie.

The buddy buddy system he had in effect at WEG with MCNair, his father and a few others is not in effect in the USA. His style of being non aggressive does not equate in the USA. If Alagna continues to make him his goto guy he will lose a bunch of owners, that you can take to the bank.

His week once again ended without winning a race. What is the ROI on that ?
UDRS at the Meds now .118. with a whopping 5.6 win %. Hardly hall of fame numbers and surely not top flight :rolleyes:

Listed on 3 drives this coming Thursday at the Meds, unless he picks up more. What's that tell you?

[badcompany]

I stand by my comments regarding Zeron. Any smart gambler who wagers regularly on horses can see he is lost at The Meds and has been for a long time. His time has already passed in the USA no matter what his fan club here says. The current slump is one that has been going on for the past 5 months, it didn't just start. Look it up for yourself, the stats never lie.

The buddy buddy system he had in effect at WEG with MCNair, his father and a few others is not in effect in the USA. His style of being non aggressive does not equate in the USA. If Alagna continues to make him his goto guy he will lose a bunch of owners, that you can take to the bank.

His week once again ended without winning a race. What is the ROI on that ?
UDRS at the Meds now .118. with a whopping 5.6 win %. Hardly hall of fame numbers and surely not top flight :rolleyes:

Listed on 3 drives this coming Thursday at the Meds, unless he picks up more. What's that tell you?

You can somewhat rationalize his low winning percentage by the fact that the top guys are monopolizing the winner's circle. However, if he were really an up and comer, he'd have a lot of 2nds and 3rds. He doesn't.

That tells me he's in over his head.

[badcompany]

Definitely a slump, but the reasons are unknown as far as I can find. He was hospitalized Dec 6?

Who knows, but that doesn't take away from his past performance.

Top flight Driver IMO

http://www.anarchyinthesandbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Taylor-Swift-Laughing-Gif-taylor-swift-30258989-500-245.gif

[cmp92]

I stand by my comments regarding Zeron. Any smart gambler who wagers regularly on horses can see he is lost at The Meds and has been for a long time. His time has already passed in the USA no matter what his fan club here says. The current slump is one that has been going on for the past 5 months, it didn't just start. Look it up for yourself, the stats never lie.

The buddy buddy system he had in effect at WEG with MCNair, his father and a few others is not in effect in the USA. His style of being non aggressive does not equate in the USA. If Alagna continues to make him his goto guy he will lose a bunch of owners, that you can take to the bank.

His week once again ended without winning a race. What is the ROI on that ?
UDRS at the Meds now .118. with a whopping 5.6 win %. Hardly hall of fame numbers and surely not top flight :rolleyes:

Listed on 3 drives this coming Thursday at the Meds, unless he picks up more. What's that tell you?
I believe Tetrick said that Alagna bought a lot of nice horses this past year. He then went on to say that he hopes (but did not say for certain) that he gets a chance to drive some of them. This was in an interview at the Big M I believe. Read into that what you will. I know TT always gives short and politically correct interviews, but maybe there is some truth to what Scoop is saying. Not trying to put words in Tetrick's, Alagna's, or owners' mouths. Just mere speculation.

[The Inside Scoop]

As an owner if you needed to choose between Tetrick and Zeron, oh nevermind that's not even funny.

[badcompany]

As an owner if you needed to choose between Tetrick and Zeron, oh nevermind that's not even funny.

More realistic would be:

As an owner if you needed to choose between Cedric Washington and Zeron... ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks to Roy for answering. As well, thanks to CMP and Bacon for answering the questions and giving a nice insight. It made for some great reading into what they see as far as Zeron goes as a driver and his future in the USA.

To Paceadvantage

It is my hope that you can now see that to have more action on the harness side of this forum, topics like the one I posted may offend some are still needed to have more people voice their opinion.


Some have chosen not to answer the questions which is their right. Others chose to defend Zeron for which they are entitled to their opinion (although I think they are way off in their assessment of his talents).

Pandy liked to go back at former years stats. I liken that to a once great baseball player who batted .300 and now is a washed up pinch hitter playing in Japan with 18 at bats with 12 strikeouts and 1 homerun. As someone who is supposedly a professional handicapper, would you tout Zeron as a driver to wager on, to paying clients, when hes batting .120 ? One would think that your credibilty would take a huge hit if that was the case.You just don't get it...which means now I have to take over...whatever man...

[PaceAdvantage]

I guess since I have no clue how to bet, I shouldn't have made one wager all night on Twin B Elite. Since I have no clue, I didn't spend any time to see her replay last start, so I just guessed that she was hung the mile uncovered from the 8 hole getting tortured and still hanging tough into a fast last 1/4 of 27.3. Furthermore I would never have known that a competent driver like Brett Miller would likely get her a nice cover trip and have her in a position to win at the head of the stretch. I totally guessed that she is a one move horse that needs to be covered as she has a tendency to hang late unless she gets totally tripped out, but then again since I havent a clue, that was just another guess from me and I havent ever saw her race in the past and hang at the wire when she looked like a winner. After all being clueless makes you unable to process information like that and store it.

You know something crazy happened and he did get her a cover trip (though the 2 in front of her were done at the head of the lane and he had to tip her a touch earlier than he might have wanted) and low and behold she won and paid $9.20. I so love not having a clue.

Just for shlitz and giggles I peaked to see if you had her in your horses to watch list on the DRF fishwrap and low and behold she was nowhere to be found. How was that possible that she didn't race good enough last week to be on a professional handicappers list of horses who raced well list? But then again what the hell would I know, I don't have a clue.

Before I forget, did you have her in your $2.50 picks you try to hock online? :lol:Oh, and now you're turning into a real super-dick...now you make my decisions MUCH EASIER.

[PaceAdvantage]

I stand by my comments regarding Zeron.For the record, I have no problem with your comments. I have a problem with REPEATING YOURSELF ad nauseam...that's the part you don't seem to get...

If I kept creating threads and posts stating "the sky is blue," I would think you would start to get sick of it after a while...and if I started posting "the sky is blue, see, I'M RIGHT" another dozen or so times, you'd REALLY start to get sick of it...right buddy?

[Stillriledup]

For months I have been telling everyone here that Zeron cannot compete in the USA and took a lot of flack for saying it. Someone even said he was a future hall of famer (I dont make this stuff up)

So months later here we are and the facts still do not lie. He currently has a .120 UDRS at The Meadowlands from 103 drives. Thats not a misprint its .120. His earnings for the year are at $121,644 from 114 total drives (11 at Yonkers)

I have mentioned that I am one that says he should admit failure and go back to Canada. Here are some Canadian stats you may be interested in. The list below are the top 10 money earners in Canada. All are ahead of Zeron in money earned, even a terrible driver like Anthony Macdonald. With the exception of the top 4 all have less drives then Zeron, yet still earned more money. His father with only 73 drives has earned more money. One would think a smart person would go back to Woodbine where he was successful and drove for live barns. They race 4 nights a week and race for better purses than The Meadowlands.

James Macdonald 295,476 (*WDB S)
Sylvain Filion 280,120 (*WDB S)
Trevor Henry 259,160 (*WDB S)
Simon Allard 210,120 (*WDB S)
Jonathan Drury 162,632 (*FLMD )
Jody Jamieson 156,510 (*WDB S)
Richard Zeron 147,210 (*WDB S)
Chris Christoforou 137,520 (*WDB S)
Anthony Macdonald 134,556 (*FLMD )
Douglas Mcnair 133,900 (*WDB S)


Please answer the follwing 4 questions:

Since he has failed to break into the upper echelon of drivers over a year period driving in the USA, should he admit failure and go back to Canada and drive?

Would you say his venture to the USA has been a successful one?

Would you be comfortable betting a $1,000 to win on him on a horse at the Meadowlands without blinking?

If you were an owner or a trainer would you make him your first call if you raced at the Meadowlands right now?

Once again, like me or not I tell it like it is.

Here's the problem with a thread like this.

Scott Zeron is what he is as a driver, whatever that may be. He's not the best guy and he's not the worst guy, he's somewhere in the middle. He's talented enough to win with the right horse in the right situation. Can he win without the best horse? Maybe, maybe not. Can he win WITH the best horse? Probably, but not always.

A thread like this is really detrimental to quality horse wagering and the reason is because its too personal and its too polarizing, its not about actual horse power, its about a human participant who is only a very small part of a very big picture. So who cares if Zeron is a 5% driver or a 25% driver, he's a young guy who has some talent and is trying his hardest to be the best he can be, he's had some nice moments...is he the next great harness driver? Maybe not, only one can be the best, maybe its him but most likely its not....none of that matters at all because it can never really help you to be overly passionate about the 10th leading driver (or wherever he is in the pecking order) and putting yourself in a position to never be able to wager on this driver no matter how much you like the horse or how much value the horse provides...because no matter how bad Scott Zeron is, there's always a price where he becomes a good bet.....and if you get this passionate about his lack of talent, you just hurt yourself by pinning this opinion into this corner to prove some point that nobody really cares about or wants to hear.

And, you hurt people who read this stuff because if you're handicapping a race and you are between two horses, you might exclude a Scott Zeron horse for unknown reasons and then realize that it was this thread that got stuck in your head and caused you to make a stupid handicapping decision because of some angry person on the internet who has some grudge or something like that.

Anyone who is reading this thread needs to really consciously address that Scott Zeron is an ok driver who can win in the right situation and can certainly finish 2nd or 3rd on a huge longshot....none of this banging on Zeron matters at all because its never going to help you cash tickets....Zeron is not driving 3-5 shots, he's on huge longshots quite often, he's a driver who blends into the backround and quietly does an ok job.....pretend he's Scott Jones and not some guy who's theoretically "supposed to be" great because he grew up as the son of a driver who's won a lot of races.

[pandy]

Again, let's make sure we set the record straight. Is Zeron in a slump now? Yes. But, to say that "maybe he's just an ok driver" is simply not fair. In 2014 Zeron finished 4th in the Meadowlands (number 1 harness track) and 14th in North America with 5.7 million in earnings and he won a Breeders Crown race. He was the youngest driver in history to reach 2,000 wins and the youngest driver to ever win the Little Brown Jug. And, at the age of 27, Zeron has won more races and more purse money than almost ANY DRIVER in the history of harness racing. Yes, in the history of Harness Racing. If you look at baseball stats you'll see that some of the best baseball players had slumps and even bad years.

Scoop's nasty posts about this record setting driver are not only mean spirited and unfair but extremely misleading. If he said something like, "Zeron has had a great career but now he is ice cold", that would be fine and accurate. But his posts make it sound like this Zeron is a bum when the reality is that he has already accomplished more at his age than almost every harness driver in the history of the sport. To impugn his accomplishments like this is shameful and a discredit to this forum.

[banacek]

Scott Zeron should go back to Canada if Scott Zeron wants to go back to Canada.

Now as a horseplayer, I would assume that The Inside Scoop would love for Scott to stay since he is cashing so much on horses that have a new driver instead of Zeron. And since this is such a great angle, it is good that The Inside Scoop is keeping this information under his hat to maximize his profit.

[badcompany]

Again, let's make sure we set the record straight. Is Zeron in a slump now? Yes. But, to say that "maybe he's just an ok driver" is simply not fair.

Sorry, Pandy, the "slump" argument holds no water. To be in a slump, you have to have an extended history of high level performance. Zeron doesn't. What he did in Canada is as meaningless as what a football player did in the CFL.

Until he proves otherwise, he is not a good driver. Can he take his driving to another level? Anything is possible, but that holds true for any young driver.

[pandy]

Sorry, Pandy, the "slump" argument holds no water. To be in a slump, you have to have an extended history of high level performance. Zeron doesn't. What he did in Canada is as meaningless as what a football player did in the CFL.

Until he proves otherwise, he is not a good driver. Can he take his driving to another level? Anything is possible, but that holds true for any young driver.

First of all, Canadian racing is not minor league racing, so you are wrong, and your football analogy is completely wrong as everyone knows. If you think that Canadian Harness racing is the minor leagues, you do not know much about the sport. Also, you conveniently left out the FACT that in his first full year driving in this country, he finished 14th in the standings with 5.7 million in earnings, which you apparently don't know or understand or want to gloss over.

He finished 4th at the Meadowlands and 14th in the sport, but in your opinion he is not a good driver. You, sir, are entitled to your opinion, but you do not have a good opinion. What you're saying is ridiculous.

As you probably know, I forgot more than you'll ever know about harness racing, so don't insult our intelligence with this nonsense.

[badcompany]

First of all, Canadian racing is not minor league racing, so you are wrong, and your football analogy is completely wrong as everyone knows. If you think that Canadian Harness racing is the minor leagues, you do not know much about the sport. Also, you conveniently left out the FACT that in his first full year driving in this country, he finished 14th in the standings with 5.7 million in earnings, which you apparently don't know or understand or want to gloss over.

He finished 4th at the Meadowlands and 14th in the sport, but in your opinion he is not a good driver. You, sir, are entitled to your opinion, but you do not have a good opinion. What you're saying is ridiculous.

As you probably know, I forgot more than you'll ever know about harness racing, so don't insult our intelligence with this nonsense.

No one is questioning your bonafides. You just happen to be wrong in this instance. Zeron is a driver who got a lot of breaks in his career because of his lineage. As you know, a mediocre driver with outstanding horses can appear better than he is. That's the case with Zeron. Now, he's being exposed.


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/f917a396bd702309ac0eb80f676ba26e_zpse864ccba.jpg

Btw,

Was he in a slump at Tioga, too? Do you see him all the way at the bottom, 2-37?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/04850371abce426fc35efda1403fcebe_zps178a2c7d.jpg

[baconswitchfarm]

.pretend he's Scott Jones and not some guy who's theoretically "supposed to be" great because he grew up as the son of a driver who's won a lot of races.


If his name was Scott Jones we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would still be at a B level track trying to get going. Billy Dobson, Brett Miller, Ronnie Wrenn, Josh Sutton and tons of other young drivers with equal or more talent sure wish their mom had got in bed With Rick Zeron . Then they would have received live drives on John Fielding stakes horses at age 21. If you don't think that matters. Ask Montrell Teague and Richie Silverman. Two professional stakes caliber drivers you wouldn't hire as valet parkers. :lol:

[pandy]

No one is questioning your bonafides. You just happen to be wrong in this instance. Zeron is a driver who got a lot of breaks in his career because of his lineage. As you know, a mediocre driver with outstanding horses can appear better than he is. That's the case with Zeron. Now, he's being exposed.


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/f917a396bd702309ac0eb80f676ba26e_zpse864ccba.jpg

Btw,

Was he in a slump at Tioga, too? Do you see him all the way at the bottom, 2-37?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/04850371abce426fc35efda1403fcebe_zps178a2c7d.jpg


Look, if you think he amassed all of those wins and earnings because he was lucky or something, that's fine with me, but that's subjective. You can pick out many drivers and knock their stats because of the connections they have.

I'm just stating the facts and the numbers, and by the numbers, his career from the start of it until December 31, 2014 was freakin' amazing, and better than almost any driver I've ever seen up until the age of 27. His year last year was the equivalent of a baseball player hitting :300 with 30 homers and 100 RBIs. As a racing journalist, I would be nuts to say that his stats should be looked at suspiciously because his father was a harness driver.

Now whether or not his success up to this point will continue, time will tell. He is certainly in a slump so far this year. But, by the numbers, he has had a brilliant career.

[Stillriledup]

If his name was Scott Jones we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would still be at a B level track trying to get going. Billy Dobson, Brett Miller, Ronnie Wrenn, Josh Sutton and tons of other young drivers with equal or more talent sure wish their mom had got in bed With Rick Zeron . Then they would have received live drives on John Fielding stakes horses at age 21. If you don't think that matters. Ask Montrell Teague and Richie Silverman. Two professional stakes caliber drivers you wouldn't hire as valet parkers. :lol:

Owners aren't using Zeron because of his father, especially trainers at the Meadowlands, its not like he's John Campbell's son.

Also, you wouldn't be having this conversation if you aren't holding Zeron to some higher standard than everyone else.

Interesting that in the trackmaster stats that are being shown, Zeron has a positive ROI.

I'm not sure why this incredible fascination with Zeron, if we all bow down and admit the OP is the greatest harness handicapping guru who's ever lived, can we move on? What's the difference if the guy is driving at 25% or has lost 1,000 races in a row, who cares, how is this going to help us make money at the windows?

[pandy]

It doesn't make a difference. The only thing that matters to a bettor, in regards to a driver's UDRS, win %, ROI, earnings, etc., is how you have done when betting that driver, not the driver's overall record. If a driver has 1 win in 20 starts for the year but you only bet him on that one win and he paid $40, then that driver will probably be your most profitable driver of the year.

[The Inside Scoop]

If his name was Scott Jones we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would still be at a B level track trying to get going. Billy Dobson, Brett Miller, Ronnie Wrenn, Josh Sutton and tons of other young drivers with equal or more talent sure wish their mom had got in bed With Rick Zeron . Then they would have received live drives on John Fielding stakes horses at age 21. If you don't think that matters. Ask Montrell Teague and Richie Silverman. Two professional stakes caliber drivers you wouldn't hire as valet parkers. :lol:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

POST OF THE YEAR !!

[badcompany]

Yonkers 2014. Lowest ITM% of any driver on the list, lower than Journeymen Shawn Vallee and Steve Smith. Austin Siegleman at the bottom is like 22 years old.

Zeron is not a top driver by a longshot: ;)

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/34756e8b4d6f8addcf4ff5cc1e83f6c2_zps1474b786.jpg

[The Inside Scoop]

Pandy

After reading these comments from an article you wrote in 2014. I wonder if you still stand behind them?


I think Zeron has the talent to be the leading driver at the Meadowlands some day.

He reminds me of John Campbell, Herve Filion and Brian Sears. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'd rate Zeron as one of the top 10 drivers in the sport today. :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm glad he's driving at the Meadowlands.

Some people comments regarding these statements at the time.

Please..... Zeron is not even close to a Sears, Campbell or Fillion. Zeron is average at the Big M probably 10 drivers better then him. He has had way more bad drives then good and his timing and aggression is still off....Come on now!!

give me a break...Zeron on Ccs Lover N sat 7th (4th horse on rail)...wow, that takes ability...he was able to make up the ground because of a ridiculously slow 58 last half...58 & 59 last halves at such a fast track are simply a sign of weak fields..and why bother checking Zeron's 'Alex Bullville' drive...parking a horse 1st over for the mile doesn't take talent...if Zeron was pulling the cart and 'Alex' was in the sulky, I'd give him some credit for that energy left at the end of the race...the guy 'may' be a very good driver but your examples are feeble...these are just 'if he wins for me he's great' or 'if he loses for me he's a bum'...comments you'd expect to hear around the grandstand from the general public...like I said...give me a break...

[badcompany]

Maybe Pandy was in the midst of a slump when he wrote that. ;)

[Stillriledup]

It doesn't make a difference. The only thing that matters to a bettor, in regards to a driver's UDRS, win %, ROI, earnings, etc., is how you have done when betting that driver, not the driver's overall record. If a driver has 1 win in 20 starts for the year but you only bet him on that one win and he paid $40, then that driver will probably be your most profitable driver of the year.

Another thing that matters to bettors is to be able to properly rate each driver as well as know how much drivers in general affect the handicapping process. In the current state of harness racing, if you are a catch driver who has hundreds and thousands of lifetime mounts with hundreds of lifetime wins and are also driving in horse races with other drivers who have hundreds and thousands of lifetime drives, the "driver factor" is very negligible and not worth really discussing as much of a handicapping factor.

A post like this turns Scott Zeron's effect on a horse racing from a very small insignificant part to some major handicapping factor when in real life, its not nearly that big and isn't even really worth discussing.

There's less than 20 drivers who have won over 5 million in purses in 2014 and Scott Zeron is one of them. Also, he's one of only 3 drivers with over 5 mil in purses who did it in less than 2,000 mounts. So, statistically, this is a pretty competent horse driver who is not even on most handicappers radar as any kind of handicapping factor at all and certainly not nearly as big of a factor as the Zeron bashers are making it out to be.

[pandy]

Pandy

After reading these comments from an article you wrote in 2014. I wonder if you still stand behind them?


I think Zeron has the talent to be the leading driver at the Meadowlands some day.

He reminds me of John Campbell, Herve Filion and Brian Sears. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'd rate Zeron as one of the top 10 drivers in the sport today. :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm glad he's driving at the Meadowlands.

Some people comments regarding these statements at the time.

Please..... Zeron is not even close to a Sears, Campbell or Fillion. Zeron is average at the Big M probably 10 drivers better then him. He has had way more bad drives then good and his timing and aggression is still off....Come on now!!

give me a break...Zeron on Ccs Lover N sat 7th (4th horse on rail)...wow, that takes ability...he was able to make up the ground because of a ridiculously slow 58 last half...58 & 59 last halves at such a fast track are simply a sign of weak fields..and why bother checking Zeron's 'Alex Bullville' drive...parking a horse 1st over for the mile doesn't take talent...if Zeron was pulling the cart and 'Alex' was in the sulky, I'd give him some credit for that energy left at the end of the race...the guy 'may' be a very good driver but your examples are feeble...these are just 'if he wins for me he's great' or 'if he loses for me he's a bum'...comments you'd expect to hear around the grandstand from the general public...like I said...give me a break...

I shouldn't have said he was one of the top 10, even though he almost proved me right. I did overstate that, simply because there are so many top drivers, it's very subjective and the top guys normally have the best connections and drive for the power stables, which is the most important factor to a driver's success. Keep in mind though, I wrote this last year, I said top 10, and last year he finished 4th at the Meadowlands and 14th in the sport last year, so I was pretty accurate in my prediction.

Your posts on Zeron are ridiculous, though, because for some reason you completely dismiss all of his wins and earnings, I guess because you think those wins somehow should not be counted because the first 7 years, including last year, that amazing success he's had was dumb luck.

[badcompany]

Pandy,

How do you explain this? If he really had the goods, shouldn't he have "Burst on to the scene" at a track with a strong driver colony?

If you want to cite his winning pct, that's almost solely as a result of having a few beasts in the NYSS.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/6a5b447e0bc16e66fcbb7d6fa37bb5a4_zpsd4f85afc.jpg

[pandy]

He finished 4th at the Meadowlands, no NY sire stakes. This is my last post on Zeron. I'm only going to get involved with threads that are beneficial and make sense. You guys take a small sampling of stats the ignore the last 7 years. Makes no sense. If you don't like this guy, fine. There are a lot of people on the internet that post negative stuff and knock people, I get it.

[badcompany]

He finished 4th at the Meadowlands, no NY sire stakes. This is my last post on Zeron. I'm only going to get involved with threads that are beneficial and make sense. You guys take a small sampling of stats the ignore the last 7 years. Makes no sense. If you don't like this guy, fine. There are a lot of people on the internet that post negative stuff and knock people, I get it.

It's nothing personal. The criticisms are strictly performance based. Just because he isn't a top harness driver doesn't make him a bad guy.

That said, unless he upgrades his skills, dramatically, he'll continue to belong to this group:


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/b054bd1f83542b546abc3ee0ada7e16d_zps1ad351ef.jpg

And not to this one:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/c1d2b799f51d7e68d51f96f1c1df4592_zps890ac8d5.jpg

[Sea Biscuit]

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/secretariat3/Scott_zps04764f8e.png (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/secretariat3/media/Scott_zps04764f8e.png.html)

This question is for Scoop and Bad Company.

If Scott Zeron is such a bad driver, how come he ended up 14th overall in North America standings with personal commissions earnings of $284,000 in 2014.

Would you like to be in his shoes?:D

[badcompany]

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/secretariat3/Scott_zps04764f8e.png (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/secretariat3/media/Scott_zps04764f8e.png.html)

This question is for Scoop and Bad Company.

If Scott Zeron is such a bad driver, how come he ended up 14th overall in North America standings with personal commissions earnings of $284,000 in 2014.

Would you like to be in his shoes?:D

Because he was over-hyped and got a lot of good horses. Harness racing is not like other sports. You don't have to be an exceptional driver to make a lot of money if you have the right horse(s).

Two word for ya: Mal Burroughs

And, I would like to be in his shoes, not for anything financial, but because he's 27. Then again, I'd like to be in ANY 27 year old's shoes. ;)

[banacek]

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/b054bd1f83542b546abc3ee0ada7e16d_zps1ad351ef.jpg

And not to this one:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/c1d2b799f51d7e68d51f96f1c1df4592_zps890ac8d5.jpg


Why would you rank drivers by ITM percent? If you change it to win percent, looks like he is right in the middle of the group you like with 14% wins..Tim Tetrick has 12%, Ron Pierce 15%..not a bad group to be with.

[Sea Biscuit]

Because he was over-hyped and got a lot of good horses. Harness racing is not like other sports. You don't have to be an exceptional driver to make a lot of money if you have the right horse(s).



Bad Company you're bad as it gets. You get good horses only because you're good.

Are you saying that the top 13 on top of Zeron won with bad horses?

Biased postings at its worst.

[badcompany]

Bad Company you're bad as it gets. You get good horses only because you're good.

Are you saying that the top 13 on top of Zeron won with bad horses?

Biased postings at its worst.

Why, because you say so?

You and the others here supporting Zeron just can't handle the fact that your compass was off. He's not a top driver and his performance is exposing this fact. That's why you all have to resort to pathetic excuses: He's in a slump :lol:
He was in the hospital two months ago. He was there visiting someone, but that's besides the point :lol:

What's next? The dog ate his harness program :lol:

[The Inside Scoop]

Some people have a hard time admitting they were wrong.

When one mentions Zeron in the same breath to the likes of Herve Filion, John Campbell and Brian Sears, that is a very bold statement. One can lose their credibility very quick especially as a handicapper making statements to that effect.

Comparing him to 3 of the greatest this sport has ever saw is comical at best and you inserted your foot very deep into your mouth by making it.

One would think that a simple "I was wrong about him" could go a long way on restoring some credibility to oneself who is in the public eye as a so called professional handicapper.

In baseball many pitchers begin their careers as if they will be the next 30 game winner only to fade into oblivion. They end up riding the buses in a semi pro league to pitch in a cornfield in Bumfuct Idaho.

Harness racing drivers are not that much different when you think about it. Drivers begin their careers well, make good money early and then fade away. Have a look at Greg Grismore. He dominated Ohio, then tried the bigtime, got first call on Burkes horses at Yonkers, proved he couldn't do the job over time and then was gone. After that, he became non existent driver at The Meadows and then finally he took his ball and went back to where he began in Ohio where he is just another driver.

Zeron has had plenty of time to prove himself in the USA and he has not. He is comparable to Marcus Miller, he did well in Illinois and then decided to come east and try his hand against the upper echelon and very quickly he became an auto-toss.

The stats do not lie, they never do. Like me or not I tell it like it is.

[LottaKash]

Why, because you say so?



Are you saying that politics and connections have nothing to do with winning drives ?

How long do you think that any of the top drivers, and we all know who they are, would last in the standings if all they got to drive were the hand me down horses that none of the others top pilots with first call, didn't want in the first place ?

You already alluded that Zeron had much success in Canada due to conncections, and yet you retort that connections had nothing to with anything in Jersey or NY....I don't get it...You can't have it both ways...

You know I am right, and anyone who has been playing this game as long as we have, all know this...Your argument is silly, I believe...Because without the right connections in horse racing, I have seen how quickly a driver can fade from glory..

As for me, I could care less about Zeron and how well he does....Sure I wish him well, but his fate is in his own hands and how he deals with the politics of horse racing... Hey, the kid jumped ship right in the middle of a nice young harness driver, success story....After learning here recently, that he was wooed away from Canada by Jeff Gural, it helped me better understand, why he would leave that place to begin with.....He is a kid, he was baited with "candy" and "pie in the sky", imo... :D

Early on, 2 or 3 threads before this one, because The Inside Scoop just wouldn't let this die, yes threads not posts, I had stated that Scott Zeron was a future hall of famer....Then, in a subsequent post I had alluded that I had been a bit "over zealous" about his talents....But, there was a reason for my declaration...Being a regular WEG player, I had, on more than a few occasions, wagered on what I thought to be great selections, only to get burned by horses driven by SZ that I had basically left out of the equation..... When I get burned by a driver that I consider to be weak(er), well, that always get's my attention, big time...He was driving like a talented bug-boy at Monmouth would ride....Well it wasn't before long that it seemed, that he was winning with everything after that...And even when he didn't win he almost always improved his horses odds, or he went down swinging... His problems started we he left a winning venue, not because he can't drive with authority, imo at least...

[badcompany]

Here's a radical idea:

How about you supporters of Zeron man up and admit you might have been wrong about him.

Conversely, if he turns it around and is a top driver by the Summer, I'll be willing to do the same.

On that note, I'm done. :ThmbUp:

[pandy]

Are you saying that politics and connections have nothing to do with winning drives ?

How long do you think that any of the top drivers, and we all know who they are, would last in the standings if all they got to drive were the hand me down horses that none of the others top pilots with first call, didn't want in the first place ?

You already alluded that Zeron had much success in Canada due to conncections, and yet you retort that connections had nothing to with anything in Jersey or NY....I don't get it...You can't have it both ways...

You know I am right, and anyone who has been playing this game as long as we have, all know this...Your argument is silly, I believe...Because without the right connections in horse racing, I have seen how quickly a driver can fade from glory..

As for me, I could care less about Zeron and how well he does....Sure I wish him well, but his fate is in his own hands and how he deals with the politics of horse racing... Hey, the kid jumped ship right in the middle of a nice young harness driver, success story....After learning here recently, that he was wooed away from Canada by Jeff Gural, it helped me better understand, why he would leave that place to begin with.....He is a kid, he was baited with "candy" and "pie in the sky", imo... :D

Early on, 2 or 3 threads before this one, because The Inside Scoop just wouldn't let this die, yes threads not posts, I had stated that Scott Zeron was a future hall of famer....Then, in a subsequent post I had alluded that I had been a bit "over zealous" about his talents....But, there was a reason for my declaration...Being a regular WEG player, I had, on more than a few occasions, wagered on what I thought to be great selections, only to get burned by horses driven by SZ that I had basically left out of the equation..... When I get burned by a driver that I consider to be weak(er), well, that always get's my attention, big time...He was driving like a talented bug-boy at Monmouth would ride....Well it wasn't before long that it seemed, that he was winning with everything after that...And even when he didn't win he almost always improved his horses odds, or he went down swinging... His problems started we he left a winning venue, not because he can't drive with authority, imo at least...

You can't argue with Scoop. He insists that Zeron didn't prove himself in this country even though the stats show that the first year in this country he was the 4th leading driver at the No. 1 harness track and 14th in the country with 5.7 million in earnings. He says the stats don't lie, but he ignores the stats. The guy is screwy. You can't reason with someone like that.

[The Inside Scoop]

Pandy

The Meadowlands last year was not the #1 harness track. Its a watered down version of the glory years the second the winter meet ends and the good drivers go elsewhere. How can you not see that?

The guy you mentioned in the same breath as Herve, Campbell and Sears is batting .118 this year but yet you still will not man up and admit you were wrong about him.

I will say this as blunt as I can. If you think that Zeron is in the upper echelon of drivers today in the sport of harness racing, you truly are not qualified to have a conversation with me.

You want stats. Here you go

USA - Last 3 years

2208 drives
248 wins
232 seconds
268 thirds
.190 UDRS
$5,206,350 earned

and you are comparing him to Herve Filion, John Campbell and Brian Sears. Is 2208 drives with a .190 UDRS not enough proof?

[badcompany]

Pandy

The Meadowlands last year was not the #1 harness track. Its a watered down version of the glory years the second the winter meet ends and the good drivers go elsewhere. How can you not see that?

The guy you mentioned in the same breath as Herve, Campbell and Sears is batting .118 this year but yet you still will not man up and admit you were wrong about him.

I will say this as blunt as I can. If you think that Zeron is in the upper echelon of drivers today in the sport of harness racing, you truly are not qualified to have a conversation with me.

You want stats. Here you go

USA - Last 3 years

2208 drives
248 wins
232 seconds
268 thirds
.190 UDRS
$5,206,350 earned

and you are comparing him to Herve Filion, John Campbell and Brian Sears. Is 2208 drives with a .190 UDRS not enough proof?

Their egos won't let them admit they were wrong, as doing so would be a tacit admission that they don't have a good eye for talent.

My assessment of Zeron was based on watching him drive NYSS horses, this past Summer. I didn't know his Canadian stats, as I barely follow that circuit. However, I had heard of him and knew his lineage. So, I paid extra attention to his drives and came to the conclusion that he was nothing special.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117433&highlight=Zeron

I stand by that statement until he proves me wrong.

[mrroyboy]

Here it is. He is a young average driver who is in a slump. It may be because he is in a tough market here so maybe he should go back to CAnada to regroup.
He should probably work on his game paying attention to detail etc. Maybe in a few years he will be up at the top. Right now he is average at best and that's about it.!!!!

[pandy]

Pandy

The Meadowlands last year was not the #1 harness track. Its a watered down version of the glory years the second the winter meet ends and the good drivers go elsewhere. How can you not see that?

The guy you mentioned in the same breath as Herve, Campbell and Sears is batting .118 this year but yet you still will not man up and admit you were wrong about him.

I will say this as blunt as I can. If you think that Zeron is in the upper echelon of drivers today in the sport of harness racing, you truly are not qualified to have a conversation with me.

You want stats. Here you go

USA - Last 3 years

2208 drives
248 wins
232 seconds
268 thirds
.190 UDRS
$5,206,350 earned

and you are comparing him to Herve Filion, John Campbell and Brian Sears. Is 2208 drives with a .190 UDRS not enough proof?

He's only driven 1 full year, last year, in the US. And everyone knows, except you, that he finished 14th in the country and earned 5.7 million last year. You can't just snap your fingers and erase that.

As for comparing to those drivers, Zeron is 27 years old and up to this point in his career he is ahead of where those guys were at 27, in both wins and earnings. You guys are weird. The guy won 5.7 million and finished 14th in the standings last year, plain and simple, facts. This nonsense that the Meadowlands doesn't count, his father helped him (bizarre), harness racing isn't a sport, yada yada, yada, all nonsense.

[pandy]

Here's a radical idea:

How about you supporters of Zeron man up and admit you might have been wrong about him.

Conversely, if he turns it around and is a top driver by the Summer, I'll be willing to do the same.

On that note, I'm done. :ThmbUp:


You're the same guy who said that Harness racing isn't a sport and the to be a top driver you have to drive at the Yonkers. Yannick Gingras, by the way, is not a Yonkers regular and he is the top driver. Where do you get this stuff?

This Scoop guy also says that the Meadowlands is not a big time track. Uh, they handle way more than any other harness track. But, yeah, I know, handle doesn't count. The fact that more people bet more money at the Meadowlands, that means nothing to you two. When guy wins 5.7 in earnings, that was a bad year!

[Stillriledup]

A pretty good way to "Rate" harness drivers is to look at their statistics. Wins, purse money, mount quality, etc. Every driver has "statistics" and those statistics put each driver in some sort of ranking. The argument here seems to be that Zeron is "higher up" statuswise than he should be. Others might be arguing that he's right where he should be.

Now, for those who are arguing that he's higher than he should be, Scoop and BC, what are you going on to suggest that Zeron is getting more "business" than he should be? Can't we invoke the "you are what your record says you are" here and whatever drives Zeron is securing he's deserving of?

As far as what "breath" Zeron is mentioned in, What's the difference? Scott is where he is, he drives what he drives, he gets business from who he gets business from, his stats are what they say he is, nothing more and nothing less.

It seems to be the argument is that he's not an "elite" driver, but who cares, nobody is saying he's anything more or less than what his drives say he is.

I think a lot of this debate centers around his last name and how some people are feeling he should be "better" than he his, or are mad that he's getting drives only because of his father...but that's a bunch of hogwash, owners arent using Scott Zeron because of his last name, they never have and they never will, all the mounts Zeron gets are because he's the best guy available for the drive......if there was another option for someone "better' those connections would opt for the better driver who didn't have a mount, they aren't using Zeron if someone is sitting in the drivers room with no mount that's more capable.

[badcompany]

You're the same guy who said that Harness racing isn't a sport and the to be a top driver you have to drive at the Yonkers. Yannick Gingras, by the way, is not a Yonkers regular and he is the top driver. Where do you get this stuff?

This Scoop guy also says that the Meadowlands is not a big time track. Uh, they handle way more than any other harness track. But, yeah, I know, handle doesn't count. The fact that more people bet more money at the Meadowlands, that means nothing to you two. When guy wins 5.7 in earnings, that was a bad year!

My statement about harness racing had nothing to do with the skill and talent of the drivers and everything to do with the fact that harness, to be sustainable at its current level, needs to be supported by slots. Does anyone disagree with that statement?

The driving skill of Scott Zeron is a completely separate issue.

Here's a suggestion for a future article:

"Zeron: Not Living Up to Expectations?"

[pandy]

A pretty good way to "Rate" harness drivers is to look at their statistics. Wins, purse money, mount quality, etc. Every driver has "statistics" and those statistics put each driver in some sort of ranking. The argument here seems to be that Zeron is "higher up" statuswise than he should be. Others might be arguing that he's right where he should be.

Now, for those who are arguing that he's higher than he should be, Scoop and BC, what are you going on to suggest that Zeron is getting more "business" than he should be? Can't we invoke the "you are what your record says you are" here and whatever drives Zeron is securing he's deserving of?

As far as what "breath" Zeron is mentioned in, What's the difference? Scott is where he is, he drives what he drives, he gets business from who he gets business from, his stats are what they say he is, nothing more and nothing less.

It seems to be the argument is that he's not an "elite" driver, but who cares, nobody is saying he's anything more or less than what his drives say he is.

I think a lot of this debate centers around his last name and how some people are feeling he should be "better" than he his, or are mad that he's getting drives only because of his father...but that's a bunch of hogwash, owners arent using Scott Zeron because of his last name, they never have and they never will, all the mounts Zeron gets are because he's the best guy available for the drive......if there was another option for someone "better' those connections would opt for the better driver who didn't have a mount, they aren't using Zeron if someone is sitting in the drivers room with no mount that's more capable.


Schrill, these guys don't look at long term stats, only short term. Nothing wrong with that from a handicapping perspective, okay, he's in a slump or off to a bad start this year, whatever. But from a statistical standpoint, this guy they hate, Zeron, has had an amazing career. I can't think of a single driver that ever won as many races or as much money by the age of 27 as he has. He literally was the youngest driver in the HISTORY of the sport to reach 2,000 wins. On top of this, he had an outstanding year in 2014, by any measure. None of this means anything to these guys for reasons that I can't fathom. They insist that his record last year doesn't count. They think that they have credibility but they say the Meadowlands isn't the number one track, which is NOT DEBATABLE.

[Stillriledup]

My statement about harness racing had nothing to do with the skill and talent of the drivers and everything to do with the fact that harness, to be sustainable at its current level, needs to be supported by slots. Does anyone disagree with that statement?

The driving skill of Scott Zeron is a completely separate issue.

Here's a suggestion for a future article:

"Zeron: Not Living Up to Expectations?"

WHO'S expectations? Why are there "Expectations"?

[badcompany]

WHO'S expectations? Why are there "Expectations"?

While I disagree with Pandy on this issue, I, as well as most who are familiar with Standardbreds, consider him one of the foremost authorities on harness in the world, and he believes Zeron has the talent to be the top driver at the Meadowlands. Moreover, you're kidding yourself if you think he didn't get many of his Meadowlands drives as a result of expectations.

[pandy]

While I disagree with Pandy on this issue, I, as well as most who are familiar with Standardbreds, consider him one of the foremost authorities on harness in the world, and he believes Zeron has the talent to be the top driver at the Meadowlands. Moreover, you're kidding yourself if you think he didn't get many of his Meadowlands drives as a result of expectations.

Thank you, that's very nice of you to say. I don't have a problem with Scoop's opinion that Zeron is off to a bad start, or in a bad slump, whatever. But, I don't think that erases his stats from 2014 and beyond, which are exceptionally good by any standards, and especially good for his age.

I don't believe in nitpicking a driver's record because of his connections. There are a lot of fans who feel that Gingras is overrated because he gets first call for Burke. Gingras is the leading driver last year and had a great year, that's all that matters. Top drivers always get good horses, that's how it works. Then when you get into a slump, you could start to lose some of those live horses, and it can really hurt.

[Stillriledup]

While I disagree with Pandy on this issue, I, as well as most who are familiar with Standardbreds, consider him one of the foremost authorities on harness in the world, and he believes Zeron has the talent to be the top driver at the Meadowlands. Moreover, you're kidding yourself if you think he didn't get many of his Meadowlands drives as a result of expectations.

He's not getting anything on his "name". He has THOUSANDS of drives, there's a lot of video and driving history to go on, anyone deciding to use Zeron on their horse is using him because they either like him as a driver, or he's better than anyone else available. People are not putting him down if there's a better option. Its possible that in the beginning of his career, people said "he's Rick's kid, i'll give him a shot" but that's not happening now, he's driven enough horses where he's getting shots on his own talent.

[The Inside Scoop]

I first commented about Zerons lack of production back in early October and "the slump" (as his defenders here like to call it) is now going on 5 months. The stats unequivocally back up what I have been saying. During that time his UDRS spiralled downward as his lack of production has continued.

Mercilessly his UDRS this year is a dismal .118 at The Meadowlands. Still some of his backers here refuse to admit that he is

(A) not a top driver
(B) will never be a hall of famer
(C) that he should not ever again be mentioned on the same breath as Sears, Herve and Campbell.

His style of driving is what has done it to him. His lack of aggression has taken him to his current non existence in the world of real drivers. When he was on live horses, he drove them like they were 50-1's, always ducking them , too hesitant to drive them like they were the best. Trainers saw it, owners saw it and thats the reason he is where he is today. I am quite sure his ego has taken a huge hit now that he has entered the bottom rung of the drivers colony.

[Stillriledup]

I first commented about Zerons lack of production back in early October and "the slump" (as his defenders here like to call it) is now going on 5 months. The stats unequivocally back up what I have been saying. During that time his UDRS spiralled downward as his lack of production has continued.

Mercilessly his UDRS this year is a dismal .118 at The Meadowlands. Still some of his backers here refuse to admit that he is

(A) not a top driver
(B) will never be a hall of famer
(C) that he should not ever again be mentioned on the same breath as Sears, Herve and Campbell.

His style of driving is what has done it to him. His lack of aggression has taken him to his current non existence in the world of real drivers. When he was on live horses, he drove them like they were 50-1's, always ducking them , too hesitant to drive them like they were the best. Trainers saw it, owners saw it and thats the reason he is where he is today. I am quite sure his ego has taken a huge hit now that he has entered the bottom rung of the drivers colony.

None of this matters, nobody is saying or cares whether or not he's a "top driver" nobody is mentioning hall of fame except you, nobody is mentioning him in any "breath" with anyone else. He is what he is, his stats are what they say he is, nothing more or nothing less.

As far as his "Defenders" go, i think some are defending why any of this matters and how any of it is productive analysis that will help us pick winners or make money going forward.

Why does ANY of this matter at all and why is there this huge discussion about Scott Zeron, what are you looking to get out of this, what's the point?

[badcompany]

None of this matters, nobody is saying or cares whether or not he's a "top driver" nobody is mentioning hall of fame except you, nobody is mentioning him in any "breath" with anyone else. He is what he is, his stats are what they say he is, nothing more or nothing less.

As far as his "Defenders" go, i think some are defending why any of this matters and how any of it is productive analysis that will help us pick winners or make money going forward.

Why does ANY of this matter at all and why is there this huge discussion about Scott Zeron, what are you looking to get out of this, what's the point?

Do you have any self-awareness?

You're a guy with 17k posts. You're not exactly picky about where you put your two cents.

If you don't like the thread, you're under no compulsion to participate. Go back to the thoroughbred board and chime in on the 800+ post Tampa Bay Announcer thread :

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101119&page=59&pp=15

ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Do you have any self-awareness?

You're a guy with 17k posts. You're not exactly picky about where you put your two cents.

If you don't like the thread, you're under no compulsion to participate. Go back to the thoroughbred board and chime in on the 800+ post Tampa Bay Announcer thread :ThmbUp:

What's with all the personal shots? Why not just answer the question, is what i asked too difficult to comprehend?

[badcompany]

What's with all the personal shots? Why not just answer the question, is what i asked too difficult to comprehend?

You're not contributing anything.

You're just whining about the thread. If you don't like it, leave. You won't be missed.

[Stillriledup]

You're not contributing anything.

You're just whining about the thread. If you don't like it, leave. You won't be missed.

Again, what's with all the personal shots? Why not just debate back and forth like an adult without the 5th grade tactics, its not that hard.

[Stillriledup]

Great horsemanship by Scotty Z in the 5th at M1 tonight, kept a trotter trotting who was extremely rough gated and trying to make a break all the way.

Kept him under a hold the entire lane without panic and got up at the end just barely.

[Sea Biscuit]

Great horsemanship by Scotty Z in the 5th at M1 tonight, kept a trotter trotting who was extremely rough gated and trying to make a break all the way.

Kept him under a hold the entire lane without panic and got up at the end just barely.

Just saw the replay. Did well holding the horse together and coming 1st over and nosing out Gingras horse at the wire.

Heres the replay. Click on Feb 5 race 5

http://www.thebigm.com/video.aspx?id=252

Thanks for the post SRU. Goes to show you can't keep a good driver from the winner's circle for too long.

[Sea Biscuit]

Here are the links to the Little Brown Jug elim and final which Scott Zeron won with Michael's Power in 2012. Scott Zeron was only 23 years old at the time. Fastest 1st qtr of 25:2 in LBJ history.

Ist elim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhP659N0sSc

Final

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KUrf6_Qu2o

Enjoy.

[Sea Biscuit]

Some more Scott Zeron's achivements.

The Real One upset at Meadowlands at 37-1

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/The-Real-One-Shocks-Free-For-All-Handicap-At-The-Meadowlands



Intimidate upsets in $500,000 TVG Trot Final

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/Intimidate-upsets-in-500-000-TVG-Trot-Final

DRIVER OF THE WEEK: SCOTT ZERON

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/Mohegan-Sun-at-Pocono-Downs-Week-in-Review--October-10-16--2014

Bluegrass Stakes 2014, Cee Bee Yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ7BGvPEe-8

There are two blind mice on this board who says the man can't drive.:D

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/secretariat3/Blindmice_zps988488d1.jpeg (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/secretariat3/media/Blindmice_zps988488d1.jpeg.html)

[badcompany]

The argument is whether he's a "Top" driver. He's not.

This is who he is. As I said, man up and admit you overestimated his ability:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/f917a396bd702309ac0eb80f676ba26e_zpse864ccba.jpg

[Stillriledup]

Some more Scott Zeron's achivements.

The Real One upset at Meadowlands at 37-1

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/The-Real-One-Shocks-Free-For-All-Handicap-At-The-Meadowlands



Intimidate upsets in $500,000 TVG Trot Final

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/Intimidate-upsets-in-500-000-TVG-Trot-Final

DRIVER OF THE WEEK: SCOTT ZERON

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/Mohegan-Sun-at-Pocono-Downs-Week-in-Review--October-10-16--2014

Bluegrass Stakes 2014, Cee Bee Yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ7BGvPEe-8

There are two blind mice on this board who says the man can't drive.:D

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/secretariat3/Blindmice_zps988488d1.jpeg (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/secretariat3/media/Blindmice_zps988488d1.jpeg.html)

I think the thread started out as more of "the guy is overrated" he's not "all that" and morphed into this downhill spiral that has nothing to do with anything. Zeron's stats and accomplishments are how good he is...he's not any better or worse than what the stats say he is.....so, all this "expectations" stuff is just people randomly deciding that because his last name is Zeron, he's supposed to be better ....or, something like that.

In reality, he's a winning driver who gets thousands of mounts and wins hundreds of races with no end in sight....so any kind of bashing of Zeron is just going to end badly for the bashers, Zeron will win hundreds of races this year, probably some decent races, he's also going to win and pay 50 dollars or 100 dollars on occasion and help his ROI and put bettors in a position to make nice scores as well as hitting the board on nice longshots in the 2nd and 3rd positions.

Why there would be a thread bashing on a guy who is destined to bring in a whole bunch of longshots in 2015 is beyond me....it just puts the naysayers in a worse position to have money on these live longshots, it overestimates Zeron's actual influence on the outcome of a harness race, he's a driver who's at the very worst competent and at very best, can do some special things.....why on earth would anyone put themselves in a position as handicappers to turn a driver into such a polarizing figure that it hurts their ability to bet on this guy when the situation calls for it?

[pandy]

The argument is whether he's a "Top" driver. He's not.

This is who he is. As I said, man up and admit you overestimated his ability:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/f917a396bd702309ac0eb80f676ba26e_zpse864ccba.jpg

So 5 weeks stats trumps all of 2014 (when he finished 14th in the country, 4th at the Meadowlands), and all of those amazing years he's had?

Sorry. It doesn't work like that. Again, you and Scoop want to totally ignore 5.7 million in earnings last year, number 14 in the sport (by the way, that means that only 13 drivers in North America had better years last year). Not to mention the fact that from the day he started driving to the end of last year, he had pretty much the best first 7 years of any harness driver in history...but, yeah, I know, that doesn't count.

[baconswitchfarm]

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/secretariat3/Scott_zps04764f8e.png (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/secretariat3/media/Scott_zps04764f8e.png.html)



I think what the real problem in this argument is this list itself. As stated early this really isn't much of a sport. In thoroughbreds the jockeys are the best athletes in the world and come here from all over the world to compete. So they are the best of a huge sample of athletes and you must be a true star to excel. Look at that list. In this game you just have to be a truly somewhat competent guy who can sit on a cart and not fall off. Every guy on the list is just the under 175 pounds son of someone already in the sport. So to be the 14th best driver in the game you are really only better than maybe 50 other people whose dads were also trainers. There are more high level curlers in this country than there are harness drivers. With such a small group to draw from a guy with mediocre talent looks ok. The phoney slots generated purses even make a guy like that a good living now. The game is too small, too exclusive, and once the slot money goes away will be forced to collapse on itself.

[banacek]

Ok..you win. Zeron is at the bottom of the pack:

[Sea Biscuit]

The argument is whether he's a "Top" driver. He's not.




BC Please read the title of thread again.

[badcompany]

BC Please read the title of thread again.


Now, you're trying to alter history.

This thread is an off shoot of this one:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117433

[badcompany]

I think what the real problem in this argument is this list itself. As stated early this really isn't much of a sport. In thoroughbreds the jockeys are the best athletes in the world and come here from all over the world to compete. So they are the best of a huge sample of athletes and you must be a true star to excel. Look at that list. In this game you just have to be a truly somewhat competent guy who can sit on a cart and not fall off. Every guy on the list is just the under 175 pounds son of someone already in the sport. So to be the 14th best driver in the game you are really only better than maybe 50 other people whose dads were also trainers. There are more high level curlers in this country than there are harness drivers. With such a small group to draw from a guy with mediocre talent looks ok. The phoney slots generated purses even make a guy like that a good living now. The game is too small, too exclusive, and once the slot money goes away will be forced to collapse on itself.

Well said.

As is often the case, you have to apply context to the numbers :ThmbUp:

[LottaKash]

I In this game you just have to be a truly somewhat competent guy who can sit on a cart and not fall off.

With all due respect of your opinions, this one not so much....I know you know things that many here may not, but not falling off a cart is not the same as winning while in a sulky going at a high rate of speed while in traffic...Not imo anyway...

Anyone can jog a horse, for sure, but not many can drive in a race and win with regularity and monetary success...

[wilderness]

Controversy generates participation, whether the end result is good or bad is the choice of the moderator.

[badcompany]

Rather than go back to Canada, Zeron should consider Saratoga Harness which opens in a month. While I don't think he would supplant Dobson or Aldrich, he should be able to win about 10%.

[Stillriledup]

Rather than go back to Canada, Zeron should consider Saratoga Harness which opens in a month. While I don't think he would supplant Dobson or Aldrich, he should be able to win about 10%.

So he should go to Saratoga to make much less money than he's making just so he can get his "win percentage" up there to appease the haters on message boards? Sounds like a plan, i'm sure you could contact him and let him know about this brilliant career path you have mapped out for him.

[lucpark]

he lost tony alagna ,,and losing more trainers with top quality horses,,fast

I saw scottie at bigm sale couple weeks back,,

he wasnt as cocky as usual

[badcompany]

So he should go to Saratoga to make much less money than he's making just so he can get his "win percentage" up there to appease the haters on message boards? Sounds like a plan, i'm sure you could contact him and let him know about this brilliant career path you have mapped out for him.

The Meadowlands, in March, races twice a week. At this point, Zeron is only getting 5-6 starts a night, and averaging about $900 a start. So, assuming he doesn't break out of his "slump," he'll be banking about 10k a week in purse money, 5% of which is $500.

In my neck of the woods, that's the monthly fee for a garage spot.

Conversely, Saratoga will be racing 4 days a week in March and the typical card has 12-13 races and 120-130k in purses up for grabs. The top drivers there all make over 1k per start.

How 'bout that Tampa Bay Announcer.? :lol:

[Sea Biscuit]

Rather than go back to Canada, Zeron should consider Saratoga Harness which opens in a month. While I don't think he would supplant Dobson or Aldrich, he should be able to win about 10%.

He is not going anywhere. He made good money last year and no reason to move.

Watch him make a quarter of a million this year as well.

Whether you like it or not.:D

[Sea Biscuit]

This thread has been a nonsensical one from the start with no end in sight.

Will the moderator do the honor of locking it for good, so that we may go on to something better and more productive threads than this one.

[badcompany]

This thread has been a nonsensical one from the start with no end in sight.

Will the moderator do the honor of locking it for good, so that we may go on to something better and more productive threads than this one.

It's a thread on a Harness board, about a Harness driver, with knowledgeable posters on both sides of the argument. Read Lucpark's post. He's an Owner.

he lost tony alagna ,,and losing more trainers with top quality horses,,fast

I saw scottie at bigm sale couple weeks back,,

he wasnt as cocky as usual


If you're not happy here. No need to go crying to the teacher like a third grader. Just stop posting.

[Stillriledup]

This thread has been a nonsensical one from the start with no end in sight.

Will the moderator do the honor of locking it for good, so that we may go on to something better and more productive threads than this one.

This thread made me think of THIS episode. :D

EQnaRtNMGMI

[The Inside Scoop]

If anyone wonders why I blocked Sea Biscuit 4 months ago his post I unfortunately read on someones quote, speaks for itself to his true character.

Zeron is his hero and him asking the moderator to lock this topic which has more posts and more reads than any post here in recent time is liken to a child throwing a hissy fit. Truly sad.

[Sea Biscuit]

If anyone wonders why I blocked Sea Biscuit 4 months ago his post I unfortunately read on someones quote, speaks for itself to his true character.

Zeron is his hero and him asking the moderator to lock this topic which has more posts and more reads than any post here in recent time is liken to a child throwing a hissy fit. Truly sad.

I look for quality not quantity. Same old repetitive stuff does not interest me one bit.

If this thread is locked it won't be the first time for you that one of your threads was locked.

You probably hold the record for most threads locked at PA.

Now this is a record which won't be broken for some time to come.:D

Anymore of your brilliant after the race is over analysis?

[Stillriledup]

If anyone wonders why I blocked Sea Biscuit 4 months ago his post I unfortunately read on someones quote, speaks for itself to his true character.

Zeron is his hero and him asking the moderator to lock this topic which has more posts and more reads than any post here in recent time is liken to a child throwing a hissy fit. Truly sad.

This thread having a lot of posts only means people love a good trainwreck.

I believe SB suggested a lock on this thread because it has zero educational value, in fact, it has negative value because it might convince someone to throw out a Zeron driven horse when there's no proof at all that doing that is profitable or recommended.

[The Inside Scoop]

If your a big gambler and bet Zeron at the Meadowlands, you will be living under a freeway bridge in no time. The stats do not lie, they never do.

As far as this thread being a trainwreck, I believe that I have shown by facts what I speak to be true. If thats a trainwreck then I am guilty of being the conductor.

Some here have selective reading and do not like when someone speaks the truth. They take offence to it and grab at straws to try and prove the opposite. No matter what those people do, they cannot change the stats that prove what I say.

Would it have been better if I told you Marcus Miller is an autotoss and stinks and couldn't be a top 10 driver at Monticello?

[Stillriledup]

If your a big gambler and bet Zeron at the Meadowlands, you will be living under a freeway bridge in no time. The stats do not lie, they never do.

As far as this thread being a trainwreck, I believe that I have shown by facts what I speak to be true. If thats a trainwreck then I am guilty of being the conductor.

Some here have selective reading and do not like when someone speaks the truth. They take offence to it and grab at straws to try and prove the opposite. No matter what those people do, they cannot change the stats that prove what I say.

Would it have been better if I told you Marcus Miller is an autotoss and stinks and couldn't be a top 10 driver at Monticello?

I think you are confusing fact with opinions.

If you want to try and make a case that Zeron is "not that good" or is "overrated" or whatever case you may be making, i would suggest that you cite specific examples of races where Zeron made a mistake and cost his horse from obtaining a better placing. Zeron wouldn't be the only driver out there who makes a tactical error, they all make mistakes on occasion, we could sit here for a long time and go over every drive from every driver and break it down and debate whether or not this particular driver makes a mistake.

Now, i'm guessing your points and argument is that Zeron is making MORE mistakes than other guys? I think it would be very helpful to break it down, race by race, drive by drive, that would be fair to Zeron too, anyone can just say "this guy is really bad" but going race by race is really a better way of explaining a case.

I've noticed that Zeron has been driving some REALLY slow horses at Meadowlands recently...he's been on some HUGE longshots...he did drive a great race last night on a trotter that was extremely rough gaited, it was great horsemanship, did you see the race? That would have given you a shot to show that you are an impartial observer if you would have said "great drive by Scott" keeping that horse from making a break. If you want to point out his bad drives, your points hold a lot more weight if you give credit too when its due.

As far as living under a freeway bridge, you don't have to have many winners at boxcar prices in order to show a profit....Scott could lose 24 in a row, but if he wins the 25th drive at 30-1, you're showing a profit and not under the bridge.

Its all relative, maybe you're not really mad at Zeron and you're mad that people think he's better than you think he is? Its ok though, its just an opinion, if Zeron really stinks and other people think he's great, that's just more money for you.

[badcompany]

The crowd seems to be catching on.

Zeron's horses were going off longer than their morning line odds, the exception being the race when he was the favorite and ended up in a dead heat for show.

His true talent seems to be for positioning his horses 4th on the rail at the top of the stretch, getting stuck behind a wall of horses, and finding an opening once the race is over.

This was the case in the race in which Trace Tetrick brought in the bomb. Zeron had a ton of horse, but didn't get out until it was too late.

[Stillriledup]

The crowd seems to be catching on.

Zeron's horses were going off longer than their morning line odds, the exception being the race when he was the favorite and ended up in a dead heat for show.

His true talent seems to be for positioning his horses 4th on the rail at the top of the stretch, getting stuck behind a wall of horses, and finding an opening once the race is over.

This was the case in the race in which Trace Tetrick brought in the bomb. Zeron had a ton of horse, but didn't get out until it was too late.

What should he have done differently?

[badcompany]

What should he have done differently?

Stayed in Canada :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Stayed in Canada :lol:

Good one. That's funny, i'll give you that one. :D

[The Inside Scoop]

If you need me to break it down then you have not been paying attention to my posts. The stats since I first began with the Lock Down Lindy drive have proved me right.

NOBODY HERE CAN DENY THAT IS THE TRUTH BECAUSE HE HAS STUNK SINCE AND HIS UDRS HAS NOT MATCHED HIS WEIGHT !!!!!!!!!

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116504&page=1&pp=15

http://216.92.33.211/forum/printthread.php?t=117433&page=2&pp=15

[The Inside Scoop]

Stayed in Canada :lol:

Echo

[badcompany]

Good one. That's funny, i'll give you that one. :D

I'll give you a serious answer.

He just doesn't seem to have a feel for getting into the outside flow. His instinct is to dart to the rail. At the BigM, with no passing lane, that's death.

There, you're better off being forth over than forth on the rail. With the former, if the front end collapses, at least you have a shot. With the latter, you have almost no shot, as the stopping horses are backing up into you.

[The Inside Scoop]

Cant figure out how to post the video so heres the link that sums it up to all living on past laurels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE

[badcompany]

Cant figure out how to post the video so heres the link that sums it up to all living on past laurels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE

How do you think he would do against this group?

I put him in the area of Beckwith and Randall:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/4abeb78b423342d4e40cc5ac01a336e9_zpsf193c06c.jpg

[Stillriledup]

I'll give you a serious answer.

He just doesn't seem to have a feel for getting into the outside flow. His instinct is to dart to the rail. At the BigM, with no passing lane, that's death.

There, you're better off being forth over than forth on the rail. With the former, if the front end collapses, at least you have a shot. With the latter, you have almost no shot, as the stopping horses are backing up into you.

Appreciate that BC, thanks.

In this particular race, my opinion is that he drove well. He had a tough spot from a bad post with a dusty track he had to take back...the option at that point was to sit in, or get into the flow. If he was in the flow, he would have lost a lot more ground, so his "kick" might not have been as strong as it was, harness horses have much more kick if they save ground on both turns. Maybe in this particular instance you could make the case that if he was in the flow with this horse in this race, he might have trotted over the field.

Up until late far turn, he could have angled wide and wider, but he stayed inside and never shook free, i dont know if he had the shot on the late far turn and into the lane to get behind the last horse on the outside and then swing around that horse, its a lot easier said than done, i won't pretend i know how to drive horses, especially trotters who have a recent break, its a lot harder to maneuver that trotter wide and wider, maybe he finished full of trot because he got the horse to relax and sat inside and saved ground.

[The Inside Scoop]

Please listen to Pandy's video answer when I ask him if he still reminds him of Herve, Sears and Campbell ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9c_KttvQPU

[Stillriledup]

Please listen to Pandy's video answer when I ask him if he still reminds him of Herve, Sears and Campbell ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9c_KttvQPU

I'd love to know how many lifetime drives and wins Brian Sears had before he moved his "Tack" to the Meadowlands and how old was he compared to Zeron and his drives/wins.

[AlBundy33]

I'd love to know how many lifetime drives and wins Brian Sears had before he moved his "Tack" to the Meadowlands and how old was he compared to Zeron and his drives/wins.

He was around 34 years old and had won around 3500 races, give or take.

[badcompany]

He was around 34 years old and had won around 3500 races, give or take.


He banged heads with Palone at the Meadows for many years. I remember watching him there and thinking he was something special, as was the case with Tetrick at Maywood. Gingras came to NY at a very young age and was immediately good, and eventually became great. I've yet to see that special quality from Zeron.

Is he a horrible driver? No.

Can he win a race with the right horse? Yes.

Is he an elite driver? Not even close.

[Sea Biscuit]

Here is a simple question for Badcompany and scoop.

Horse A is being driven by a top notch name driver like Gingras or Tetrick. He has poor performance lines and is clearly out of shape and not in form. He is going off at 6-1

Horse B is being driven by Scott Zeron, He has excellent performance lines and is in excellent shape and form. He is going off at 6-1.

Class and post positions are no factor with the 2 horses as both have good inside posts.

Which one are you gonna bet?

[badcompany]

Here is a simple question for Badcompany and scoop.

Horse A is being driven by a top notch name driver like Gingras or Tetrick. He has poor performance lines and is clearly out of shape and not in form. He is going off at 6-1

Horse B is being driven by Scott Zeron, He has excellent performance lines and is in excellent shape and form. He is going off at 6-1.

Class and post positions are no factor with the 2 horses as both have good inside posts.

Which one are you gonna bet?

It's a hard question to answer definitely without knowing the horse or trainer.

I'll put it another way.

Take a horse and clone it so that you have two identical horses and put them in a match race with Tetrick and Zeron as the drivers.

Tetrick wins 99 out of 100 times.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Here is a simple question for Badcompany and scoop.

Horse A is being driven by a top notch name driver like Gingras or Tetrick. He has poor performance lines and is clearly out of shape and not in form. He is going off at 6-1

Horse B is being driven by Scott Zeron, He has excellent performance lines and is in excellent shape and form. He is going off at 6-1.

Class and post positions are no factor with the 2 horses as both have good inside posts.

Which one are you gonna bet?

As you've described things, the answer is definitely horse B. YG and TT aren't miracle workers - they aren't going to win with "out of shape and not in form" horses. The only driver that ever mattered that much was Walter Case at Yonkers in the early 90s. To this day, I think he could improve a horse by 2 seconds.

[Sea Biscuit]

You have answered my question. You bet the driver instead of the horse like most fools do in racing.

You missed out of a good opportunity to cash a nice ticket. In 99 of 100 of the above scenarios Zeron would win hands down.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You missed out of a good opportunity to cash a nice ticket. In 99 of 100 of the above scenarios Zeron would win hands down.

I totally agree, but the scenario as you described it rarely exists - bettors just aren't that dumb.

[badcompany]

You have answered my question. You bet the driver instead of the horse like most fools do in racing.

You missed out of a good opportunity to cash a nice ticket. In 99 of 100 of the above scenarios Zeron would win hands down.

No, Dickhead, I'm saying there are other factors besides the driver.

Certain horses have a tendency to wake up even if they appear to be out of shape.

I'm saying everything else being equal I'd bet against Zeron every time.

Why is it so hard to admit that Zeron is clearly not in the same league as those other two? It's not big a deal.

[Sea Biscuit]

As you've described things, the answer is definitely horse B. YG and TT aren't miracle workers - they aren't going to win with "out of shape and not in form" horses. The only driver that ever mattered that much was Walter Case at Yonkers in the early 90s. To this day, I think he could improve a horse by 2 seconds.

You are a wise man Mike.:ThmbUp:

[badcompany]

You missed out of a good opportunity to cash a nice ticket. In 99 of 100 of the above scenarios Zeron would win hands down.

I totally agree, but the scenario as you described it rarely exists - bettors just aren't that dumb.

Exactly, it's a hypothetical that never happens. The horses wouldn't be the same odds, and if they were, you'd have to ask yourself why.

In a strong driver colony, the driver isn't a huge factor. In a colony where there is a huge disparity between the best and the worst, it is.

[Sea Biscuit]

You missed out of a good opportunity to cash a nice ticket. In 99 of 100 of the above scenarios Zeron would win hands down.

I totally agree, but the scenario as you described it rarely exists - bettors just aren't that dumb.

You're probably right Mike.

It was a hypothetical situation I created just for badcompany and he fell for it hook, line and sinker.


He says he will bet certain horses have a tendency to wake up even if they appear to be out of shape. I have never heard of such a foolish statement before.:lol:

What a loser.

[badcompany]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]

You're probably right Mike.

It was a hypothetical situation I created just for badcompany and he fell for it hook, line and sinker.


He says he will bet certain horses have a tendency to wake up even if they appear to be out of shape. I have never heard of such a foolish statement before.:lol:

What a loser.

Here's your question:

If Zeron is on Niatross and Tetrick is on a 4k claimer and they're the same odds, who do you bet?

It's idiotic and not surprising considering who came up with it.

[Sea Biscuit]

[QUOTE=Sea Biscuit]

Here's your question:

If Zeron is on Niatross and Tetrick is on a 4k claimer and they're the same odds, who do you bet?

It's idiotic and not surprising considering who came up with it.

Keep on betting those out of shape horses with a tendency to to wake up.

You sure you are not posting from a poorhouse?

[Stillriledup]

No, Dickhead, I'm saying there are other factors besides the driver.

Certain horses have a tendency to wake up even if they appear to be out of shape.

I'm saying everything else being equal I'd bet against Zeron every time.

Why is it so hard to admit that Zeron is clearly not in the same league as those other two? It's not big a deal.

Dickhead? Say it ain't so BC, say it ain't so!

As far as "Everything being equal" its pretty obvious that bettors gravitate towards drivers, trainers and jockeys as a handicapping factor, so all else being equal in the odds, Zeron would always have the better horse....if Zeron is 6-1 and Tetrick or YG is 6-1, it means by definition Zeron is on the better animal as those other guys would always get some money because of being a name driver.

[badcompany]

[QUOTE=badcompany]

Keep on betting those out of shape horses with a tendency to to wake up.

You sure you are not posting from a poorhouse?

Actually, I'm posting from the upper east side of Manhattan. Where are you?

I'm almost always in Saratoga for the entire week of the PA meet up and have met more than 20 PA members in person. How about you? Can we expect to see you up there?

Back to the topic:

The second race at the Big M was a perfect example of why Zeron isn't elite. Picture perfect trip with the rail. Has the entire stretch to get by a similarly priced horse, which had already been used and was being driven by a 60 year old man, and Zeron still couldn't get it done.

I'm sure he lost a few fans with that effort.

[Stillriledup]

[QUOTE=Sea Biscuit]

Actually, I'm posting from the upper east side of Manhattan. Where are you?

I'm almost always in Saratoga for the entire week of the PA meet up and have met more than 20 PA members in person. How about you? Can we expect to see you up there?

Back to the topic:

The second race at the Big M was a perfect example of why Zeron isn't elite. Picture perfect trip with the rail. Has the entire stretch to get by a similarly priced horse, which had already been used and was being driven by a 60 year old man, and Zeron still couldn't get it done.

I'm sure he lost a few fans with that effort.

Zeron is driving a lot of bad horses, everytime i look up, he's on something that can't go forward.

As far as him being "elite" nobody is saying he's elite, but in his defense, he isn't driving 3-5 shots for Ron Burke either.

[badcompany]

[QUOTE=badcompany]

Zeron is driving a lot of bad horses, everytime i look up, he's on something that can't go forward.

As far as him being "elite" nobody is saying he's elite, but in his defense, he isn't driving 3-5 shots for Ron Burke either.

I don't know if there's any truth to this, but there's a rumor going around that Tom Brady and Bill Belichick snuck into Meadowlands Paddock area and deflated the wheels on Zeron's sulky. :(

[Stillriledup]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]

I don't know if there's any truth to this, but there's a rumor going around that Tom Brady and Bill Belichick snuck into Meadowlands Paddock area and deflated the wheels on Zeron's sulky. :(

I wouldnt' put it past them.

[cmp92]

[QUOTE=badcompany]

Zeron is driving a lot of bad horses, everytime i look up, he's on something that can't go forward.

As far as him being "elite" nobody is saying he's elite, but in his defense, he isn't driving 3-5 shots for Ron Burke either.
Not really interested in the elite or not debate, but perhaps Zeron could help his case if he started driving elsewhere more frequently. Maybe give some trainers the incentive to put you down if you start driving more and more frequently. Maybe they'll owe you a favor for driving 5-6 nights a week for them.

A guy like Tim Tetrick was a machine back when he first moved out East. The guy drove everywhere doing doubleheaders and racing 7 nights a week.

I've seen Zeron drive a little at Pocono, Yonkers, Harrah's, but it looked like he was doing this sporadically. Even if it was a regular thing, he was only getting a few drives on those days.

Show trainers that you're hungry and they'll throw you a bone. Besides Alagna, I don't see Zeron going that extra mile for anyone. I don't stalk the guy, but does he really do much besides the Meadowlands on weekends?

The more you race, presumably you'll make new contacts and like I said, maybe they'll owe you a favor. Sounds like a good way to get some experience, earn trust, and get some live drives.

[Stillriledup]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]
Not really interested in the elite or not debate, but perhaps Zeron could help his case if he started driving elsewhere more frequently. Maybe give some trainers the incentive to put you down if you start driving more and more frequently. Maybe they'll owe you a favor for driving 5-6 nights a week for them.

A guy like Tim Tetrick was a machine back when he first moved out East. The guy drove everywhere doing doubleheaders and racing 7 nights a week.

I've seen Zeron drive a little at Pocono, Yonkers, Harrah's, but it looked like he was doing this sporadically. Even if it was a regular thing, he was only getting a few drives on those days.

Show trainers that you're hungry and they'll throw you a bone. Besides Alagna, I don't see Zeron going that extra mile for anyone. I don't stalk the guy, but does he really do much besides the Meadowlands on weekends?

The more you race, presumably you'll make new contacts and like I said, maybe they'll owe you a favor. Sounds like a good way to get some experience, earn trust, and get some live drives.

Good post, its possible he's not as hungry as he could be, i don't know why he isn't driving day and night 7 days a week, i know i would be if i was in that position.

I dont know much about Zeron personally or what his work ethic is like, my posts in this thread are just basically about his influence in the handicapping process and whether or not he's as bad as some think he might be.

[cmp92]

[QUOTE=cmp92]

Good post, its possible he's not as hungry as he could be, i don't know why he isn't driving day and night 7 days a week, i know i would be if i was in that position.

I dont know much about Zeron personally or what his work ethic is like, my posts in this thread are just basically about his influence in the handicapping process and whether or not he's as bad as some think he might be.
Corey Callahan is someone who also comes to mind. He's the perennial driving champ at Dover Downs. They race Sun-Thurs and Callahan is there most nights, if not all. Then he'll race Fri/Sat at the Meadowlands.

Pierce is another guy. He's getting older, but he still racks up the miles driving at DD and M1 5-6 nights a week. He has enough clout and respect that he could drive only weekends if he wanted to, but he still goes out and works for it.

If I were an owner/trainer, I'm looking for a guy like that. Racing on weekdays, racing in the cold and snow, racing the cheap horses, racing at the not so glamorous tracks is what gets you the respect and trust of trainers when it comes time for Grand Circuit action. The passive driving hoping for a ferocious rally from tenth, passing nine horses, and winning a close win photo is not what gets you those opportunities.

Just my two cents.

[Stillriledup]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]
Corey Callahan is someone who also comes to mind. He's the perennial driving champ at Dover Downs. They race Sun-Thurs and Callahan is there most nights, if not all. Then he'll race Fri/Sat at the Meadowlands.

Pierce is another guy. He's getting older, but he still racks up the miles driving at DD and M1 5-6 nights a week. He has enough clout and respect that he could drive only weekends if he wanted to, but he still goes out and works for it.

If I were an owner/trainer, I'm looking for a guy like that. Racing on weekdays, racing in the cold and snow, racing the cheap horses, racing at the not so glamorous tracks is what gets you the respect and trust of trainers when it comes time for Grand Circuit action. The passive driving hoping for a ferocious rally from tenth, passing nine horses, and winning a close win photo is not what gets you those opportunities.

Just my two cents.

No doubt, if you want to compare his work ethic to some other guys, it doesn't appear to stack up just like the Pierces, Tetricks and other guys who are driving around the Eastern Corridor racking up drives.

Zeron just finished 2nd at a huge price at M1....underneath the 6-5 shot, the exa was 113 for 2 bucks and the tri was over 800.......i think the main part of my discussions here are anything that bangs on Zeron, whether its deserved or not, can only hurt your chances to have a horse like this and make a nice score in an exa or tri if a person is backing himself into a corner arguing about Zeron's lack of talent.

As far as i'm concerned, all that matters is if we visit the cashiers window and it doesn't matter how you visit that window, we all want to cash tickets on nice longshots, makes no sense to beat up Zeron, even if the beating he's getting is legit it doesnt matter if all you care about is cashing in. How did all this Zeron critique from a lot of people here help pick that 22-1 he drove to a 2nd place finish in the 10th? It didnt help at all and could possibly have hurt.

[cmp92]

[QUOTE=cmp92]

No doubt, if you want to compare his work ethic to some other guys, it doesn't appear to stack up just like the Pierces, Tetricks and other guys who are driving around the Eastern Corridor racking up drives.

Zeron just finished 2nd at a huge price at M1....underneath the 6-5 shot, the exa was 113 for 2 bucks and the tri was over 800.......i think the main part of my discussions here are anything that bangs on Zeron, whether its deserved or not, can only hurt your chances to have a horse like this and make a nice score in an exa or tri if a person is backing himself into a corner arguing about Zeron's lack of talent.

As far as i'm concerned, all that matters is if we visit the cashiers window and it doesn't matter how you visit that window, we all want to cash tickets on nice longshots, makes no sense to beat up Zeron, even if the beating he's getting is legit it doesnt matter if all you care about is cashing in. How did all this Zeron critique from a lot of people here help pick that 22-1 he drove to a 2nd place finish in the 10th? It didnt help at all and could possibly have hurt.
You make good points that I don't disagree with. I have cashed tickets on Scott Zeron, not as many as other guys, but I've had some success. Perhaps I'm biased, but in my opinion, there's some guys that just don't come through for me. It's a weird thing about gambling, but I'm sure most of the posters here would agree that there seems to be one guy who always seems to beat them at the wire or throws down an anchor when you bet them. Everyone has that someone who just seems to have their number.

I'm going to bet a horse if I think he's the best in the field or fits into my handicapping. I'm not a huge fan of Zeron, I'll admit it. But I'll bet him if I handicap a race and think he's a winner. I understand the frustration of other posters who don't hold him in high regards either. I understand and don't disagree with those who say he's weak compared to the competition at M1. I'm trying to be as objective as possible and I don't keep as detailed notes as other posters here, but I notice that Zeron typically is stuck at the back of the pack trying to win races from the clouds. I'll see him take back and race from 7th and try to win fourth over rather than try to leave and get a spot in 4th or 5th. You have to be more aggressive to win.

More often than not, I find myself tearing up a ticket in frustration after betting on Zeron. But, as I said, I don't mind betting him if I think he's got a good shot....I just won't hold my breath during the race. :D

[Sea Biscuit]

[QUOTE=Sea Biscuit]

Actually, I'm posting from the upper east side of Manhattan. Where are you?

I'm almost always in Saratoga for the entire week of the PA meet up and have met more than 20 PA members in person. How about you? Can we expect to see you up there?

Back to the topic:

The second race at the Big M was a perfect example of why Zeron isn't elite. Picture perfect trip with the rail. Has the entire stretch to get by a similarly priced horse, which had already been used and was being driven by a 60 year old man, and Zeron still couldn't get it done.

I'm sure he lost a few fans with that effort.

The second race at the Big M was a perfect example of why Zeron isn't elite. Picture perfect trip with the rail. Has the entire stretch to get by a similarly priced horse, which had already been used and was being driven by a 60 year old man, and Zeron still couldn't get it done.

I'm sure he lost a few fans with that effort.

Here is a classic example of a shit biased post by badcompany.

No mention that Zerons horse was 11-1

No mention that he lost the race in a photo by a head.

No mention the Zeron's horse paid $9 to place.

No mention that the eventual winner got a perfect 2 hole trip at 10-1 and the 60 year old man was none other than John Campbell a hall of famer.

No mention that he beat name drivers like Tetrick, Gingras, Brett Miller, Pierce Callahan, and David Miller in the race.

Enough of this rubbish from BC.

How about you? Can we expect to see you up there?

Thanks for the invite but no thanks.

I only hang around with guys who know something about the game.

[The Inside Scoop]

2 wins in his past 100 drives now at the Meds

Shut out for the weekend

If thats a guy you should be wagering on, then please ask for crackers, when your eating at a soup kitchen.

I cannot even fathom as to why people here would even think that this guy belongs at any major track in the USA when his stats for the last 5 months jump out at you like a sore thumb, telling you he cannot compete with the upper echelon of drivers.

I have gave him more ink here than any other .123 UDRS driver in the history of the sport and those defending him without any merit or stats to rebuff what I have said and shown.

Bad and Bacon, 2 very astute posters here, have formed their own opinion of him, not by listening to me, but from watching him drive. They also have provided factual information to back up what they say.

CMP has his own opinion as well and stated that Zeron's lack of aggression, passiveness and always seeming to have horses in the wrong spot. This is why he doesn't hold him in high standards as a driver. He sees what many here see.

He should write Jeff Gural a nice farewell letter, thanking him for the opportunity, eat some humble pie and pack his belongings and head back to Canada and try to get a new start. He can drive at Flamboro, maybe Western Fair and see what other business he can pick up at WEG if there is any left. He will be better off going that route or he will totally fade into oblivion if he stays in the USA, where he will continue to struggle and pick up crumbs.

[Stillriledup]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]
You make good points that I don't disagree with. I have cashed tickets on Scott Zeron, not as many as other guys, but I've had some success. Perhaps I'm biased, but in my opinion, there's some guys that just don't come through for me. It's a weird thing about gambling, but I'm sure most of the posters here would agree that there seems to be one guy who always seems to beat them at the wire or throws down an anchor when you bet them. Everyone has that someone who just seems to have their number.

I'm going to bet a horse if I think he's the best in the field or fits into my handicapping. I'm not a huge fan of Zeron, I'll admit it. But I'll bet him if I handicap a race and think he's a winner. I understand the frustration of other posters who don't hold him in high regards either. I understand and don't disagree with those who say he's weak compared to the competition at M1. I'm trying to be as objective as possible and I don't keep as detailed notes as other posters here, but I notice that Zeron typically is stuck at the back of the pack trying to win races from the clouds. I'll see him take back and race from 7th and try to win fourth over rather than try to leave and get a spot in 4th or 5th. You have to be more aggressive to win.

More often than not, I find myself tearing up a ticket in frustration after betting on Zeron. But, as I said, I don't mind betting him if I think he's got a good shot....I just won't hold my breath during the race. :D

When you mention detailed notes, i'm assuming that these are notes on horses and not drivers, right?

Since this thread was started, i've been paying much closer attention to Zeron and i have to say, this guy is awesome. He drives huge longshots like you're supposed to, sit on the rail and try and get lucky. He got 4th tonight from post 10 on a 65-1 shot....super paid 500 for a buck with the two chalks running 1-2, another bomb 3rd and Zeron 4th. It was a fantastic drive, if he gets in the flow, he's not 4th, he drove a 65-1 shot like you're supposed to, save as much ground as possible and try and get lucky.

If a bettor is betting Tri's and supers at M1, its a bad idea to just blindly toss this guy no matter what the horse shows, if he's sitting in and saving ground, he can clunk up for 3rd or 4th and beat the bet...OR, you (not you personally) can make him your friend and actually bet ON him underneath in exotics.

Funniest thing about Zeron and all the naysayers is this.....if you see the M1 results and you just see the winning horses and prices and you see a horse pay 100 dollars and you had to guess who drove the winner, Zeron would be a smart guess.

[Stillriledup]

2 wins in his past 100 drives now at the Meds

Shut out for the weekend

If thats a guy you should be wagering on, then please ask for crackers, when your eating at a soup kitchen.

I cannot even fathom as to why people here would even think that this guy belongs at any major track in the USA when his stats for the last 5 months jump out at you like a sore thumb, telling you he cannot compete with the upper echelon of drivers.

I have gave him more ink here than any other .123 UDRS driver in the history of the sport and those defending him without any merit or stats to rebuff what I have said and shown.

Bad and Bacon, 2 very astute posters here, have formed their own opinion of him, not by listening to me, but from watching him drive. They also have provided factual information to back up what they say.

CMP has his own opinion as well and stated that Zeron's lack of aggression, passiveness and always seeming to have horses in the wrong spot. This is why he doesn't hold him in high standards as a driver. He sees what many here see.

He should write Jeff Gural a nice farewell letter, thanking him for the opportunity, eat some humble pie and pack his belongings and head back to Canada and try to get a new start. He can drive at Flamboro, maybe Western Fair and see what other business he can pick up at WEG if there is any left. He will be better off going that route or he will totally fade into oblivion if he stays in the USA, where he will continue to struggle and pick up crumbs.

It doesn't matter what you think or what i think or what Biscuit thinks or what BC thinks or what Bacon thinks...all that matters is what the owners and trainers think who put this guy down to drive their horses. As long as they use him to drive, than hes deserving of those drives whether any of us likes it or not.

There has already been discussion here in this thread about Zeron's work ethic and how he's not building up business by getting in his car and trying to hustle mounts at other places when M1 is closed or even driving in the daytime. Not sure why he wouldn't drive at Freehold in the daytime, the driving colony there isnt so great, he would become a top dog there and win races and build up some good will with those trainers down there, forge some relationships and that will no doubt help him get better mounts at meadowlands.

From a handicapping and betting standpoint, if he's viewed as a "2 percent" driver and nobody wants to bet on him, he becomes "your friend" and can provide incredible value, if he's driving big longshots, he doesn't have to win too many races, and if you handicap and bet correctly, you can make some scores if the guy finishes 2nd and 3rd.

Zeron isn't winning a lot of races, he's driving a ton of huge longshots, so right now you're looking really smart, you have probably saved some handicappers some money who have been blindly tossing Scott.

However, this is a funny game and things could change, Scott could win 10 or 15 of his next 100 including a bunch of bombs and show a Positive ROI...than what? Than you come here and admit you were wrong and he's winning now and people who have been betting him are crushing the windows on huge prices?

Its a pipe dream on your part to think the guy is going to only win 2 out of every 100 drives going forward...and when he wins, he's going to light up the board on some of them for sure...a guy who's "2 for 100" isnt going to be 6-5 too often.

lastly, he drove a trotter the other night who was almost making a break, he nursed the horse home with great horsemanship....yet, you never commented on that expert handling, maybe you forgot to give him credit? Horsemen at the track who saw that race all know that maybe Zeron is great with a trotter....if you get a good reputation as a trot driver, you might pick up some extra mounts because of that.

[The Inside Scoop]

Still

He does not exist in the world I am in when it comes to wagering. The last horse he drove that I wagered on was Lock Down Lindy at Mohawk on August 28 2014. I saw enough that night with a non aggressive drive when the horse layed over the field in a stakes race. After that race, I made him an autotoss on anything he drives. I have stuck to my guns and he has struggled mightily since, which makes my decision a smart one.

Owners and trainers have also saw enough of him to the point of where he drives mainly longshots, now at The Meadowlands. I can sit here all night and tell you what I think of him but the truth is in the owners and trainers of live horses who will not use him anymore. He was overhyped as a driver when he first came to the USA and as time has gone on its become very obvious he isn't anywhere near the talent some thought he was.

[baconswitchfarm]

[QUOTE=cmp92]



Since this thread was started, i've been paying much closer attention to Zeron and i have to say, this guy is awesome. He drives huge longshots like you're supposed to, sit on the rail and try and get lucky.


But that is his standard drive. He drives 4-5 shots in the same manner. He is like a pitcher with one pitch. When it isn't working he looks lost. But I hope he gets hot just to keep this thread alive.

[The Inside Scoop]

Bacon

Once again you are bang on. Thats what makes him an autotoss.

[Stillriledup]

Still

He does not exist in the world I am in when it comes to wagering. The last horse he drove that I wagered on was Lock Down Lindy at Mohawk on August 28 2014. I saw enough that night with a non aggressive drive when the horse layed over the field in a stakes race. After that race, I made him an autotoss on anything he drives. I have stuck to my guns and he has struggled mightily since, which makes my decision a smart one.

Owners and trainers have also saw enough of him to the point of where he drives mainly longshots, now at The Meadowlands. I can sit here all night and tell you what I think of him but the truth is in the owners and trainers of live horses who will not use him anymore. He was overhyped as a driver when he first came to the USA and as time has gone on its become very obvious he isn't anywhere near the talent some thought he was.

But if he's a very conservative driver, and he's on longshots and figures to be either last on the rail or 4th over, isnt there a great chance that since the horse was so conservatively driven the horse can kick into the tri or super and you can benefit by cashing tickets with Scott underneath with some creative wagering? Seems if you have an edge and you know the style of the drives and that style might lead to some big longshots who finish in the tri or super, aren't you only hurting yourself?

Its a really good idea to not let a driver or trainer "Get in your head" because that hampers your ability to be flexible.....it seems to me that the pain of your Aug 28th loss was so unbearable because you were 100% convinced that Zeron was the cause of your losing bet, that you don't want to revisit the pain again with him.....he let you down in a situation where there was no reason at all for him to have let you down and you are still angry, i know i'm angry at drivers too for stupid drives, but it happens all the time.

You bet a Zeron horse who layed over the field and he drove the horse like it was a 20-1 shot.....so, now that you know his "Style" of driving, i would suggest to only bet Zeron when he's a huge price...that way, if he drives conservatively and doesn't get there, or the horse stinks and can't do anything, you won't be so upset because 20-1 shots are 20-1 for a reason, they're not supposed to win, at that price, your hopes won't be so high and you won't take it so personal when a driver screws up a drive and costs you a bet.

Zeron drove bad that night (i'm taking your word for it) and he cost you money and you're angry as heck, but if you autotoss him on every horse in the win, place, show and 4th spots, especially tossing huge longshots, you're just putting yourself in a position to have Zeron beat you again by running over your money on a huge priced horse.

Try and cash tickets and try and not get too personal with the human participants, this game is all about horses, just start evaluating the horses and try and make Zeron your friend, he's out of favor now, bettors are ignoring him at the windows, but it only takes one huge longshot to set you free and this guy is driving more longshots in one week than some of these guys are driving in one year. Make him your friend on a big longshot, it only takes one to make your week or month or even your year.

[badcompany]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]


But that is his standard drive. He drives 4-5 shots in the same manner. He is like a pitcher with one pitch. When it isn't working he looks lost. But I hope he gets hot just to keep this thread alive.

He'll eventually have a night when he wins two races, as most 5% drivers do. His supporters here will get hot and bothered, but, as Scoop said, his time has come and gone.

In the end, this thread will fade away as it will become increasingly difficult to vilify and label as "biased" those of us who saw it from the start.

[Sea Biscuit]

yet, you never commented on that expert handling, maybe you forgot to give him credit?

Are you kidding me SRU. Guys like Scoop and BC are all about negativity. Even if Zeron wins the next 20 races. these two won't comment about it. Scoop had all praises for a driver like Roger Mayotte. He claims to have put $500 on a trotter driven by Mayotte at 5-1 to 1. This trotter showed 3 breaks in his last 3 parimutuel starts and was coming off a Qua. Of course the horse stayed flat and won and paid 12 and change. Only one thing wrong with this picture. Scoop announced his bet after the race was over. As a matter of fact the next day. When somebody asked why does he not put picks before the race, the standard red boarder reply came "oh I don't want anybody to hurt my prices".

BC's post about Zeron's 2nd race at Meds last night was a classic negative post of the year. His horse missed by a head at 11-1 and paid $9 to place and his stupid comment was and I quote "I'm sure he lost a few fans with that effort."

These 2 are all about negativism period. They probably breathe negative air too. They have nothing better to do but twiddle their thumbs and write long writeups and beat up on a driver. This is Scoop's 4 or 5th thread about Zeron and how bad he is. Maybe he should start a thread about Roger Mayotte and how great he is specially when he red boarded and said he bet 500 on him.

That would be a refreshing change for him.

Too much time has been wasted in this thread. My last post in this awful negative thread.

[badcompany]

Are you kidding me SRU. Guys like Scoop and BC are all about negativity. Even if Zeron wins the next 20 races. these two won't comment about it. Scoop had all praises for a driver like Roger Mayotte. He claims to have put $500 on a trotter driven by Mayotte at 5-1 to 1. This trotter showed 3 breaks in his last 3 parimutuel starts and was coming off a Qua. Of course the horse stayed flat and won and paid 12 and change. Only one thing wrong with this picture. Scoop announced his bet after the race was over. As a matter of fact the next day. When somebody asked why does he not put picks before the race, the standard red boarder reply came "oh I don't want anybody to hurt my prices".

BC's post about Zeron's 2nd race at Meds last night was a classic negative post of the year. His horse missed by a head at 11-1 and paid $9 to place and his stupid comment was and I quote "I'm sure he lost a few fans with that effort."

These 2 are all about negativism period. They probably breathe negative air too. They have nothing better to do but twiddle their thumbs and write long writeups and beat up on a driver. This is Scoop's 4 or 5th thread about Zeron and how bad he is. Maybe he should start a thread about Roger Mayotte and how great he is specially when he red boarded and said he bet 500 on him.

That would be a refreshing change for him.

Too much time has been wasted in this thread. My last post in this awful negative thread.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/trth.gif

[cmp92]

[QUOTE=cmp92]

When you mention detailed notes, i'm assuming that these are notes on horses and not drivers, right?

Since this thread was started, i've been paying much closer attention to Zeron and i have to say, this guy is awesome. He drives huge longshots like you're supposed to, sit on the rail and try and get lucky. He got 4th tonight from post 10 on a 65-1 shot....super paid 500 for a buck with the two chalks running 1-2, another bomb 3rd and Zeron 4th. It was a fantastic drive, if he gets in the flow, he's not 4th, he drove a 65-1 shot like you're supposed to, save as much ground as possible and try and get lucky.

If a bettor is betting Tri's and supers at M1, its a bad idea to just blindly toss this guy no matter what the horse shows, if he's sitting in and saving ground, he can clunk up for 3rd or 4th and beat the bet...OR, you (not you personally) can make him your friend and actually bet ON him underneath in exotics.

Funniest thing about Zeron and all the naysayers is this.....if you see the M1 results and you just see the winning horses and prices and you see a horse pay 100 dollars and you had to guess who drove the winner, Zeron would be a smart guess.
Mostly horses. I know some harness handicappers like to keep detailed trip notes. Since a lot of my time is tied up with school during the week, I don't get a chance to do that or watch many replays. All I have are the PPs and my own memory.

That being said, I also casually observe driver performance. To me it just seems like Zeron puts himself in awful positions to win from. I'm not an exotic bettor, mostly win and exacta. But I don't disagree with you. Someone playing tris and supers can make a big score if he brings in a bomb underneath. However, due to my bankroll, I'm not in a position to make those bets and spread out to cover some longshots.

In my handicapping and betting, there's fewer and fewer spots that I think of betting on him. Mostly because he's driving weak horses. If he looks like a winner, I'll make the bet. If there are other options that also have similar chances of winning, I'll probably look elsewhere. It goes back to a previous post, there's some guys that I cash on and other guys I have no luck with.

There's no personal animosity toward Scott. That's just how gambling goes IMO.

[Lose The Juice]

Has it occurred to anyone that the statistical performance of even the most talented driver, especially in this day and age, will be drastically affected by, like, which trainers he's getting his drives from? Anyone glance at the odds of most of the horses Zeron drives these days, and the records of the trainers he's driving for now?

[pandy]

For those of you who want to win, it's all about evaluating each horse's chances and looking for value. Below are my picks and my personal odds line for last night's 10th at Meadowlands, plus the results. I had no intention of betting this race initially but Spender Hanover went off at 22-1, a huge overlay, so I boxed the 3-7 in the exacta and it paid $113.20. I had expected this exacta to pay around $25.00.


1 3 SIR CARY'S Z TAM 5-2
2 7 SPENDER HANOVER 4-1
3 4 MAGIC TRICKS 4-1
4 9 JACK ATTACK 4-1

SIR CARY'S Z TAM had post 10, was wide from 4th over and finished strongly in last...SPENDER HANOVER classy sort has dangerous speed here...MAGIC TRICKS is in good form...JACK ATTACK showed speed leaving and just missed in last.

results

3 Sir Cary`s Z Tam David Miller 4.60 3.40 3.00
7 Spender Hanover Scott Zeron 12.60 5.60
2 Maxi Bon John Campbell 6.40




Exacta (3-7 $113.20)

[badcompany]

Here's the chart for the 2nd race:

There were two lukewarm favorites, one of which didn't show up at all, the other went first over, fell apart coming to the head of the stretch, and backed up the field but not before taking the starch out of the 3rd choice which had cut the mile.

This setup essentially created a match race between Campbell, on the 5, and Zeron, on the 1. They were similarly priced horses. However, Campbell had left from the 5 hole, while Zeron sat the rail the whole race. So, the 1 figured to be fresher animal.

Zeron had the entire BigM stretch to run down Campbell, but could not do so. John Campbell is an all-time great, but the man is 60 years old, and well past his prime.

Sorry, a "Rising Star" wins that race.


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/thinlizzy21/1f75379d0a5009b332f8042b2bbc4ac8_zps0ee2a313.jpg

[pandy]

Campbell's driving extremely well.

[The Inside Scoop]

Zeron - 149 drives - 5.4 win % - .121 UDRS
Is that a guy I should bet $1,000 to win on ?

Still

I am not the type of better that plays gimmicks. I could care less who finishes 2nd, 3rd or 4th so a guy who is not aggressive, doesn't apply to my wagering plans trying to get him into the bottom end of an ex, tri or super, because I don't bet them.

One of the largest bets I made this year was last night on Wiggle it Jiggleit and heres the reason. I watched him race last year at Pocono and he was a freight train, arguably one of the most impressive races you will ever see a 2 year old race and he did it under wraps. His last start I saw him drop 3 seconds off his qualifier at Dover and pace a hole in the wind the last piece blazing home in 54.3 and he looked the part once again of a serious serious horse. Being a big long gaited horse the Meds would even suit him more than a 5/8 track. When they put him into the Sonsam against older horses, I knew he wasn't coming up here to get stuck on the rail and that he would be put into play even though I am no fan at all of Montrell Teague as a driver. The connections were not coming here to give him a start so I figured the time to bet him was now when he was a decent price because not everyone figured he was the real deal. I knew he was quaility because I was familiar with the horse from last year after he caught my eye at Pocono. You will not get anywhere near the same price on him again and I likely will not bet him again because of that.

To each his own the way you wager. To each his own giving out picks here. I do my business the way I have for almost 40 years and I keep to myself in my thoughts on who I like. Some here can call me names and go on about me giving out horses when they win but if you put the time in, then you do not need me to tell you who to bet, you can figure it out yourself. It takes time and patience and each and every day there is a horse that jumps out at you at a price where you can make a decent score and thats the horse you should bet. Some will win and some will lose but overall you will come out ahead if you are willing to put the time in to find them.

[badcompany]

Has it occurred to anyone that the statistical performance of even the most talented driver, especially in this day and age, will be drastically affected by, like, which trainers he's getting his drives from? Anyone glance at the odds of most of the horses Zeron drives these days, and the records of the trainers he's driving for now?


Here's an interview with Ron Pierce who said the Meadowlands was pushing the young guys. If this is the case, Zeron not currently getting drives is based on the better Trainers finding his performance unsatisfactory, rather than the other way around.

http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/restricted/pdf/hru/hru020714.pdf

[Lose The Juice]

One, he generally doesn't drive for Burke, which puts him behind the eight-ball statistically. Two, he's generally driving longshots. If you look at the Meadowlands regulars for this meet, he's doing far better on long-priced horses than all the other drivers with at least 50 starts.

When Casie Coleman had a stable at the Meadowlands, people made a big fuss over Zeron. It's been a trainers' game now for a long time.

[LottaKash]

Zeron -
One of the largest bets I made this year was last night on Wiggle it Jiggleit and heres the reason. .

Another "REDBOARD" from the "Master".....Priceless :lol:

[mrroyboy]

No John
You are the undisputed master.

[LottaKash]

No John
You are the undisputed master.

HaHA Roy, that's not what my wife sez... :eek: , plus, you left out the bater part.... :D

[Sea Biscuit]

Another "REDBOARD" from the "Master".....Priceless :lol:

Love his red boarding techniques. He reminds me of the Monopoly game.

Like you said John, priceless.:jump:

[PaceAdvantage]

If your a big gambler and bet Zeron at the Meadowlands, you will be living under a freeway bridge in no time. The stats do not lie, they never do.

As far as this thread being a trainwreck, I believe that I have shown by facts what I speak to be true. If thats a trainwreck then I am guilty of being the conductor.

Some here have selective reading and do not like when someone speaks the truth. They take offence to it and grab at straws to try and prove the opposite. No matter what those people do, they cannot change the stats that prove what I say.

Would it have been better if I told you Marcus Miller is an autotoss and stinks and couldn't be a top 10 driver at Monticello?What you've shown is that you MAY be right, and that you love to repeat yourself, to the point of annoying the piss out of me, the moderator...

Good job.

[PaceAdvantage]

[QUOTE=baconswitchfarm]

He'll eventually have a night when he wins two races, as most 5% drivers do. His supporters here will get hot and bothered, but, as Scoop said, his time has come and gone.

In the end, this thread will fade away as it will become increasingly difficult to vilify and label as "biased" those of us who saw it from the start.For the record, I didn't label anyone biased...I labeled them god-awful repetitive...

[PaceAdvantage]

This thread is off the rails...now we have name calling and all sorts of nonsense going on...

Thread is now closed...don't start another one...it won't last long if you do, so you'll be wasting your time.