Pool manipulation Race 1 Charlestown jan 23

[Stillriledup]

Um, did someone refund a large win and place bet on the 3 at the very end of the betting? I didnt think that horse was 8-1 and i know he had a "large" place bet that went away.

[TucsonGreyhound]

Can someone explain to me the rules on canceling wagers?

Specifically, at what point are you NOT allowed to cancel a wager?

[luisbe]

Can someone explain to me the rules on canceling wagers?

Specifically, at what point are you NOT allowed to cancel a wager?

Where I bet I can cancel at any time.

[Stillriledup]

Can someone explain to me the rules on canceling wagers?

Specifically, at what point are you NOT allowed to cancel a wager?

I used to be under the impression that if you are at a live track and standing in front of a teller, that the teller had a certain amount of time to cancel even after the race starts. Now, in this CT race i dont know when this bet was cancelled, it was very late in the betting for sure because i didnt notice it until after the race was over. As far as cancelling on sam machines or with your ADW, that varies a lot i think, but the tellers on track have a cancel delay where they can cancel races after they start.

This was just a case of someone making a bet they never intended to keep right from the start, that bet was sitting in the pool for quite a bit and then came out at the last moment.

[TucsonGreyhound]

This was just a case of someone making a bet they never intended to keep right from the start, that bet was sitting in the pool for quite a bit and then came out at the last moment.

I'm very surprised this doesn't happen more often, especially at the smaller tracks.

What would prevent someone from placing 1,000 $100 win bets on a huge favorite then canceling 999 of them at post?

Is this actually illegal anywhere?

[banacek]

I don't know the rules in the US, but I made a fairly large win bet cancellation a while back and got an email a couple of days later:

"Cancellations, especially Win cancels, can change the odds. Pari-Mutuel Regulations permit the cancellation of bets, until stop betting, for reasons including:

1. A change in race surface, race distance, track condition or
jockey
2. A scratch of part of an entry and the cancel time limit expired
at a self-serve machine
3. A wrong ticket, even after you have left the mutuel window

If your reason for cancelling a bet is not listed above, you are not permitted to cancel and is against the Canadian Pari-Mutuel Agency’s (CPMA) regulations."

[Stillriledup]

I'm very surprised this doesn't happen more often, especially at the smaller tracks.

What would prevent someone from placing 1,000 $100 win bets on a huge favorite then canceling 999 of them at post?

Is this actually illegal anywhere?

I don't think its illegal and it might not even be against the rules per se, i dont think track are giving bettors the cancel option so people can make bets they don't really want just to manipulate the odds. I'm not sure what language is in the "racing rules" but i have to imagine its not an "approved" practice.

Altough, you can make the case that these types of bets spur betting action, a "Fake" place bet on a no hoper automatically gets extra bets from people trying to take advantage of that bet....only to see it disappear at the last second is kind of disheartening.

[lamboguy]

I'm very surprised this doesn't happen more often, especially at the smaller tracks.

What would prevent someone from placing 1,000 $100 win bets on a huge favorite then canceling 999 of them at post?

Is this actually illegal anywhere?
its not illegal to make a mistake and catch it and cancel the ticket.

[Stillriledup]

its not illegal to make a mistake and catch it and cancel the ticket.

:D

yes, but if you're making the mistake at 5 or 10 mins to post and "catching" the mistake at 1 second to post, that's kind of frowned upon behavior. Tellers shouldn't be granting cancels that late........i i was making the rules i would say once that clock hits 0 MTP, no more cancels.

[banacek]

This was just a case of someone making a bet they never intended to keep right from the start, that bet was sitting in the pool for quite a bit and then came out at the last moment.

Don't think so in this case:

[Stillriledup]

That possible B, i looked up at 1 mtp and thought i remembered seeing that 3 horse at low odds all throughout the betting.....i'm pretty sure that the money on the 3 was there for 2 full mins because the race didn't actually go off at 0, it was probably a minute to 2 mins after the clock hit 0.

[lamboguy]

:D

yes, but if you're making the mistake at 5 or 10 mins to post and "catching" the mistake at 1 second to post, that's kind of frowned upon behavior. Tellers shouldn't be granting cancels that late........i i was making the rules i would say once that clock hits 0 MTP, no more cancels.
some people are consistently slow to find their mistakes

[Robert Fischer]

Don't think so in this case:

good post.

probably was not Pool manipulation.
The pools were so small at that point. It is possible someone intended to dutch the 2 favorites in that race, and had a mastery of the pool and public behavior, but I doubt it.

[Stillriledup]

some people are consistently slow to find their mistakes

Well, i mean, this person made this wager very late in the betting.....and it was a sizeable wager, it was probably at least 500 WP.....i dont know of too many people who "make a mistake" by betting 1k on a charlestown race, esp 500 of it into the place pool at off time was 7100.

[thespaah]

Um, did someone refund a large win and place bet on the 3 at the very end of the betting? I didnt think that horse was 8-1 and i know he had a "large" place bet that went away.
How much was the bet? $500?

[thespaah]

Can someone explain to me the rules on canceling wagers?

Specifically, at what point are you NOT allowed to cancel a wager?
Looks like any ADW bettor can cancel their wager up to the bell.
I think it should be no closer than 3 mins to post.
That specifically to help in avoiding pool manipulation.

[Stillriledup]

Generally speaking, big bettors are smarter in racing matters, in betting, in placing bets, etc. than smaller bettors or novices. When a novice makes a mistake on a 20 dollar bet and cancels, nobody even sees it.. An expert gambler who is smart enough to be able to wager thousands of dollars isn't making "mistakes" these are manipulations and the reason they are manipulations is because the amount of money that gets cancelled doesn't show up on an other horse.

The more money you are betting the more careful are with making sure the amounts are correct and the horse numbers are correct.

To answer Spaah's question in post 15, the place money on the 3 horse that got cancelled was over 500 because the horse had over 1,000 to place and ended up with less than 500 total at off time. It was probably anwhere from 600 to 1,000 that got cancelled in the place pool on the 3 horse Teton Pass.

[davew]

Generally speaking, big bettors are smarter in racing matters, in betting, in placing bets, etc. than smaller bettors or novices. When a novice makes a mistake on a 20 dollar bet and cancels, nobody even sees it.. An expert gambler who is smart enough to be able to wager thousands of dollars isn't making "mistakes" these are manipulations and the reason they are manipulations is because the amount of money that gets cancelled doesn't show up on an other horse.

The more money you are betting the more careful are with making sure the amounts are correct and the horse numbers are correct.

To answer Spaah's question in post 15, the place money on the 3 horse that got cancelled was over 500 because the horse had over 1,000 to place and ended up with less than 500 total at off time. It was probably anwhere from 600 to 1,000 that got cancelled in the place pool on the 3 horse Teton Pass.

It still could gave been a mistake or error involving wrong race or wrong track. Usually pool manipulations actually involve a 'contender'.

[LottaKash]

Um, did someone refund a large win and place bet on the 3 at the very end of the betting? I didnt think that horse was 8-1 and i know he had a "large" place bet that went away.

Was it a good cancel ?....How did the #3 turn out ?...

[moneyandland]

Generally speaking, big bettors are smarter in racing matters, in betting, in placing bets, etc. than smaller bettors or novices. When a novice makes a mistake on a 20 dollar bet and cancels, nobody even sees it.. An expert gambler who is smart enough to be able to wager thousands of dollars isn't making "mistakes" these are manipulations and the reason they are manipulations is because the amount of money that gets cancelled doesn't show up on an other horse.

The more money you are betting the more careful are with making sure the amounts are correct and the horse numbers are correct.

To answer Spaah's question in post 15, the place money on the 3 horse that got cancelled was over 500 because the horse had over 1,000 to place and ended up with less than 500 total at off time. It was probably anwhere from 600 to 1,000 that got cancelled in the place pool on the 3 horse Teton Pass.

This is just something in you're head, I unfortunately can personally testify to it's falseness because I've made mistakes on big wagers, had teller give wrong track, or I click on wrong box online ADW's, etc.

If you're a small bettor and then all of the sudden switch to a big bet than yeah I'm sure you probably are going to quadruple check everything, but if you're just betting normal and the bet isn't out of your comfort zone you can get lazy and complacent expecting everything to go right.

I once had a $1000 win bet meant to be for Meadowlands and the teller gave me The Meadows, I'm sure someone watching The Meadows though they were onto a live horse, but it was just human error. Just another reason why the game is sooo hard to beat.

To say that no one makes mistakes just because they're betting more is a ridiculous assumption.

If you make 50 bets a day, that's 18250 bets a year, 1 error of 18250 is .005% thats low but it's not 0% it's going to happen

In this case it shows the evidence of someone betting between 1 and 0 MTP, and the being removed, If someone wanted to manipulate the odds why not bet it earlier say 10 mtp?

[Stillriledup]

This is just something in you're head, I unfortunately can personally testify to it's falseness because I've made mistakes on big wagers, had teller give wrong track, or I click on wrong box online ADW's, etc.

If you're a small bettor and then all of the sudden switch to a big bet than yeah I'm sure you probably are going to quadruple check everything, but if you're just betting normal and the bet isn't out of your comfort zone you can get lazy and complacent expecting everything to go right.

I once had a $1000 win bet meant to be for Meadowlands and the teller gave me The Meadows, I'm sure someone watching The Meadows though they were onto a live horse, but it was just human error. Just another reason why the game is sooo hard to beat.

To say that no one makes mistakes just because they're betting more is a ridiculous assumption.

If you make 50 bets a day, that's 18250 bets a year, 1 error of 18250 is .005% thats low but it's not 0% it's going to happen

In this case it shows the evidence of someone betting between 1 and 0 MTP, and the being removed, If someone wanted to manipulate the odds why not bet it earlier say 10 mtp?

Like the writeup, thanks for joining in.

I think the 64 dollar question is this. If you're betting large amounts on a small time track like Charlestown and the odds are swayed that the amounts you wager completely affect the toteboard, do you just eat the mistake or manipulate the pool? The other question is this. Even if its an honest mistake, it still affects other bettors who are reacting to that money so, to the other bettors, they could care less whether or not its an honest mistake because they have only a few seconds to react to this money, if they see cash like this they react and then when the mistake money gets refunded, that hurts honest bettors who expect to see that money remain.

Here's another thing.

There's a difference between making a mistake and making a mistake that does something to the pool to cause other bettors to react. Most bettors aren't betting 1k (or more) on Charlestown. Most bettors aren't betting 1k period...so there are a very small, select group of bettors who have the bankroll to even wager a grand on a race much less the desire, so this is not just Joe Blow "accidentally" betting 750 to place on an 8-1 shot at Charlestown into a 7k place pool. The place pool would have ended up even less had it not be for people who were betting the "right horses" to place to take advantage of the money on the 3.

Maybe i'm being a little harsh on this particular bettor and it was just an honest mistake, but i've seen too many "honest mistakes" that just happen to manipulate the board, so this is a sore subject with me and a lot of other bettors.

This particular bet was sitting on the board for at least 2 minutes and then came out so late that people weren't able to react and refund the bets that they made, so the "honest mistake" guy got his money back free and clear while bettors who bet against that money ended up riding out bets that they didn't want.

[thespaah]

This is just something in you're head, I unfortunately can personally testify to it's falseness because I've made mistakes on big wagers, had teller give wrong track, or I click on wrong box online ADW's, etc.

If you're a small bettor and then all of the sudden switch to a big bet than yeah I'm sure you probably are going to quadruple check everything, but if you're just betting normal and the bet isn't out of your comfort zone you can get lazy and complacent expecting everything to go right.

I once had a $1000 win bet meant to be for Meadowlands and the teller gave me The Meadows, I'm sure someone watching The Meadows though they were onto a live horse, but it was just human error. Just another reason why the game is sooo hard to beat.

To say that no one makes mistakes just because they're betting more is a ridiculous assumption.

If you make 50 bets a day, that's 18250 bets a year, 1 error of 18250 is .005% thats low but it's not 0% it's going to happen

In this case it shows the evidence of someone betting between 1 and 0 MTP, and the being removed, If someone wanted to manipulate the odds why not bet it earlier say 10 mtp?
You may be spot on, but I think the probability of pool manipulation is quite high.
Think about it.....A large volume bettor can plunk down a $1000 win bet in a small pool. The public is going to "follow" that bet thinking "there is something up"....Meanwhile that same bettor is slowly sinking money into the entrant he really thinks will win. The odds will creep downward. Or he may wait until a minute or so to post to place his legitimate bet. Then cancel his bet on the other horse.
Or....He can do the same thing on his exotics....
Trifectas and supers are the easiest to "hide" money because there are no probable pays nor do the amounts of money in bets placed on each entrant ever get displayed to the public.
I think pool manipulation can and does occur.

[Stillriledup]

You may be spot on, but I think the probability of pool manipulation is quite high.
Think about it.....A large volume bettor can plunk down a $1000 win bet in a small pool. The public is going to "follow" that bet thinking "there is something up"....Meanwhile that same bettor is slowly sinking money into the entrant he really thinks will win. The odds will creep downward. Or he may wait until a minute or so to post to place his legitimate bet. Then cancel his bet on the other horse.
Or....He can do the same thing on his exotics....
Trifectas and supers are the easiest to "hide" money because there are no probable pays nor do the amounts of money in bets placed on each entrant ever get displayed to the public.
I think pool manipulation can and does occur.

They can also manipulate in other ways..by sending a bet larger than the one they plan on making on the horse they LIKE...which sends bettors scurrying to adjust the market on the overlays in the race....and at the end, the bettor refunds a large portion of his bet and get better odds on the money that's left.

[moneyandland]

You may be spot on, but I think the probability of pool manipulation is quite high.
Think about it.....A large volume bettor can plunk down a $1000 win bet in a small pool. The public is going to "follow" that bet thinking "there is something up"....Meanwhile that same bettor is slowly sinking money into the entrant he really thinks will win. The odds will creep downward. Or he may wait until a minute or so to post to place his legitimate bet. Then cancel his bet on the other horse.
Or....He can do the same thing on his exotics....
Trifectas and supers are the easiest to "hide" money because there are no probable pays nor do the amounts of money in bets placed on each entrant ever get displayed to the public.
I think pool manipulation can and does occur.

I don't disagree that it occurs, I was just speaking of this particular incident and the facts that in this incident seem to point just a simple error

[moneyandland]

Like the writeup, thanks for joining in.

I think the 64 dollar question is this. If you're betting large amounts on a small time track like Charlestown and the odds are swayed that the amounts you wager completely affect the toteboard, do you just eat the mistake or manipulate the pool? The other question is this. Even if its an honest mistake, it still affects other bettors who are reacting to that money so, to the other bettors, they could care less whether or not its an honest mistake because they have only a few seconds to react to this money, if they see cash like this they react and then when the mistake money gets refunded, that hurts honest bettors who expect to see that money remain.

Here's another thing.

There's a difference between making a mistake and making a mistake that does something to the pool to cause other bettors to react. Most bettors aren't betting 1k (or more) on Charlestown. Most bettors aren't betting 1k period...so there are a very small, select group of bettors who have the bankroll to even wager a grand on a race much less the desire, so this is not just Joe Blow "accidentally" betting 750 to place on an 8-1 shot at Charlestown into a 7k place pool. The place pool would have ended up even less had it not be for people who were betting the "right horses" to place to take advantage of the money on the 3.

Maybe i'm being a little harsh on this particular bettor and it was just an honest mistake, but i've seen too many "honest mistakes" that just happen to manipulate the board, so this is a sore subject with me and a lot of other bettors.

This particular bet was sitting on the board for at least 2 minutes and then came out so late that people weren't able to react and refund the bets that they made, so the "honest mistake" guy got his money back free and clear while bettors who bet against that money ended up riding out bets that they didn't want.

DRFbets has a $250 daily cancel limit so it's possible for ADW's to combat pool manipulations if they want

At simulcast @ Saratoga Harness you have to show ID and sign the back of the ticket for cancellations over $50 I think

There's a simple way to alleviate all pool manipulation but it would cost money and time from the regulators of the game, if x number of dollars or % of pool is cancelled it would trigger a notification to check on where the bets/cancels came from and patterns/repeat offenders accounts could be prevented from cancelling, but that's just wishful thinking for a game that only responds to huge PR issues from outside forces and turns a deaf ear to the grumblings of the everyday customer

[moneyandland]

Also on my $1000 error I had to eat it because I didn't even notice it til I went to collect, that was a angry, :mad: :( sad ride home :bang:

[Stillriledup]

Also on my $1000 error I had to eat it because I didn't even notice it til I went to collect, that was a angry, :mad: :( sad ride home :bang:

Here's a question. If there was a no cancel policy under any circumstances, once the bet is made its locked in no matter what, do you think there would be more or less (or the same) 'mistakes' from bettors?

[MutuelClerk]

The track I work at once they lock, that's it. no 3-5 second rule for cancels. That ended many years ago when guys would bet " the off" in harness racing. And still have a luxury to cancel if there horses didn't leave the gate. When you get a customer at the window who doesn't really know what he's doing and my terminal is telling me zero minutes. I'm telling him how much the ticket will be before I pop it up. I'm not paying for a guy's ticket who has no clue what he wants and unfortunately he usually holding up a already understaffed line.

The most we can punch a bet for is 100.00. although you can repeat it three times and put 400.00 to win on one ticket. Amtote system. I do work a special window where I can punch 500.00 on one bet and 2000.00 on one punch for the one whale who comes to our track occasionally.

[Stillriledup]

The track I work at once they lock, that's it. no 3-5 second rule for cancels. That ended many years ago when guys would bet " the off" in harness racing. And still have a luxury to cancel if there horses didn't leave the gate. When you get a customer at the window who doesn't really know what he's doing and my terminal is telling me zero minutes. I'm telling him how much the ticket will be before I pop it up. I'm not paying for a guy's ticket who has no clue what he wants and unfortunately he usually holding up a already understaffed line.

The most we can punch a bet for is 100.00. although you can repeat it three times and put 400.00 to win on one ticket. Amtote system. I do work a special window where I can punch 500.00 on one bet and 2000.00 on one punch for the one whale who comes to our track occasionally.

Great info, thanks MC.

[MutuelClerk]

A lot of tracks, parlors these days let you cancel on SAM machines. That's where most of pool manipulation occurs.