Imagine there's no Heaven....

[Tom]

XLgYAHHkPFs

Of course, there is good and evil.
Doesn't take religion, or a god, to show me that.

[Tom]

H4C offered this in another thread.
But can there be good and evil without a God?

Is a shark evil for attacking a swimmer?
Is a crocodile evil for killing a younger croc?
Or a hippo?
Or a mother bird who pushed one from the next to ensure the other gets enough food?

Without a God, would it be evil for a man to kill another who tries to take his money, or his home?

Aren't we all under the same natural laws as all the other species, seeing how we are not the ultimate creations, but merely a step in evolution?

And, why did evolution stop with us?
Is there a better version coming, maybe with a warmer climate?:rolleyes:

Define evil so that it applies to all species.

[LottaKash]

Without a God, would it be evil for a man to kill another who tries to take his money, or his home?



Heck No !...

In the Bible, in the Hebrew, the commandment is "Thou shall Do No Murder"....Not, "Thou shall not Kill"...

There is a very big difference between killing for defense than premeditating a killing..

I am a Christian, not from a Religion, but from a "Living Reality", and I can tell you this, when it comes to defending Me and Mine, I am no 2d-Class Citizen in that regard...

[LottaKash]

XLgYAHHkPFs

Of course, there is good and evil.
Doesn't take religion, or a god, to show me that.


Tom, I believe that many people have been deluded into kinky thinking just based on the lyrics of that song...

For many years, there were some verses that had perplexed me...It seemed to me that something was missing and odd about all of the words from that song...I just couldn't put my finger onit..

In more recent years, it was revealed to me in bits and pieces....But I finally got it..

It turns out that Lennon (not Lenin, haha), was an avowed Commie, and he worshipped Satan as well...

I can picture some of you at this very moment spitting out their coffee, but if you need a little proof, check this out...

Check out the Album Cover from The Beatles "SGT PEPPERs LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND" vinyl....On that cover, you will see a bunch of photo's of people that had an influence on the Beatles lives.... in the upper left hand corner you will see a photo of "Aleister Crowley", the founder of the church of Satan, and you will also in that mix, see a photo of the Real "LENIN"...And, if you notice the signs that the Beatles are making with their hands, they are all Satanic Signs...

If you listen to the words again to that Imagine song, this time with a more open mind, you will hear and see that it is a "setup", a setup song for "The New World Order", and Satan....Imagine there's no heaven, haha (wouldn't Satan just love that)...And the world will live as one, haha (sounds like a propaganda song for the NWO, no ?)...

Paul in the Bible, stated that we will never, all get along....

[Tom]

But no God means no bible.
I am arguing this from your side, but I want to see if the lefts can explain it.

[thaskalos]

The vast majority of the people of this world SAY that they believe in "God", and yet, "evil" is EVERYWHERE...which leads me to believe that people only PRETEND to believe in God. Unless we are to believe that all the evil in the world is committed by the "atheists".

A question for YOU:

Those sexual predators of young children who are pretending to be Christian priests...do THEY believe in God? Are THEY afraid that they will have to answer to God for their heinous crimes? How can they preach the Gospel by day...and sexually abuse kids at night?

With words...EVERYBODY believes in "God". With actions...hardly anybody does.

The Christian God does not simply ask us to be "good people". He asks us to HATE this world, and sacrifice it for the world beyond. We don't like to hear this, of course...so we ignore it. And we become "Cafeteria Christians"... :rolleyes:

[Tom]

A question for YOU:

Those sexual predators of young children who are pretending to be Christian priests...do THEY believe in God? Are THEY afraid that they will have to answer to God for their heinous crimes? How can they preach the Gospel by day...and sexually abuse kids at night?

Let go of your bone.
This thread is not about believing in God, it is about if there was no God.
If there was no God, those priests did nothing wrong, because there is no wrong. There is only survival.

Where do you get we are supposed to hate this world?
I guess Mother Teressa missed a memo.

[thaskalos]

Let go of your bone.
This thread is not about believing in God, it is about if there was no God.
If there was no God, those priests did nothing wrong, because there is no wrong. There is only survival.

Where do you get we are supposed to hate this world?
I guess Mother Teressa missed a memo.

Where did I get it? Read the bible...and you'll find it.

[thaskalos]

Let go of your bone.
This thread is not about believing in God, it is about if there was no God.
If there was no God, those priests did nothing wrong, because there is no wrong. There is only survival.

Where do you get we are supposed to hate this world?
I guess Mother Teressa missed a memo.

Gee, Tom. That makes all the sense in the world. :rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

If there was no God, those priests did nothing wrong, because there is no wrong. There is only survival.

Nonsense. Then all the atheists would be criminals.

[MutuelClerk]

A question for YOU:

Those sexual predators of young children who are pretending to be Christian priests...do THEY believe in God? Are THEY afraid that they will have to answer to God for their heinous crimes? How can they preach the Gospel by day...and sexually abuse kids at night?

With words...EVERYBODY believes in "God". With actions...hardly anybody does.

The Christian God does not simply ask us to be "good people". He asks us to HATE this world, and sacrifice it for the world beyond. We don't like to hear this, of course...so we ignore it. And we become "Cafeteria Christians"... :rolleyes:

Well said. Great post.

[MutuelClerk]

Oops, poorly copied but still a great post.

[thaskalos]

I am a Christian, not from a Religion, but from a "Living Reality", and I can tell you this, when it comes to defending Me and Mine, I am no 2d-Class Citizen in that regard...

There is one small problem with your definition of "Christian", though. It conflicts with what Jesus instructed Christians to do. You believe in "defending what is yours"...and HE instructed Christians to "turn the other cheek".

You see the discrepancy?

[Tom]

Gee, Tom. That makes all the sense in the world. :rolleyes:

If you are not up to it intellectually, you are not forced to participate in this
thread.

[Tom]

Nonsense. Then all the atheists would be criminals.

Right and wrong is not the same as criminal.
Criminal is a legal event, not a religious one.
If child molestation was against a law, yes, they would be criminals who did nothing wrong. They did something illegal. Not the same.

[thaskalos]

If you are not up to it intellectually, you are not forced to participate in this
thread.

Ok...

[LottaKash]

.and HE instructed Christians to "turn the other cheek".

You see the discrepancy?

No discrepancy here, what he was trying to intimate was that, if you overload one's donkey with the truth of God's word, and they become angry by it, and they hit you, then turn the other cheek, because you had it coming...

[LottaKash]

But no God means no bible.
I am arguing this from your side, but I want to see if the lefts can explain it.

I got that Tom...I sincerely would not want you to believe otherwise.. ;)

The left most likely will never get it, because they are too smart for that nonsense....

[Stillriledup]

God exists, here's proof.

https://twitter.com/thetweetofgod

[Tom]

I got that Tom...I sincerely would not want you to believe otherwise.. ;)

The left most likely will never get it, because they are too smart for that nonsense....

They're batting 1000 so far. ;)

[Tom]

God exists, here's proof.

https://twitter.com/thetweetofgod

Is that you? :D

[Stillriledup]

Is that you? :D

Its probably THIS guy, tweeting from Heaven.

6RT6rL2UroE

[therussmeister]

I seem to have clicked the wrong thread. How did the religious thread shrink to only two pages? Or a better question; how long will out take for this thread to reach 16,000 replies?

[Tom]

This one was narrowly defined as a continuation of H4C's comments in another thread, so as not to go too far OT in that one.

I doubt it will go much longer.:rolleyes:

[Steve 'StatMan']

I seem to have clicked the wrong thread. How did the religious thread shrink to only two pages? Or a better question; how long will out take for this thread to reach 16,000 replies?

All depends on who see this and responds. ;)

Edit: Wow! That other thread started over 3 years ago, in Oct 2011 and has over 1100 pages. Too much for my stamina levels. Glad I dropped out about 1 1/2 years ago.

[boxcar]

I seem to have clicked the wrong thread. How did the religious thread shrink to only two pages? Or a better question; how long will out take for this thread to reach 16,000 replies?

If I abstain, it won't. :lol:

[therussmeister]

All depends on who see this and responds. ;)

Edit: Wow! That other thread started over 3 years ago, in Oct 2011 and has over 1100 pages. Too much for my stamina levels. Glad I dropped out about 1 1/2 years ago.
When I first saw that thread I asked myself if I should read the whole thing to catch up, but I figured it would be faster to just read the Bible.

[Robert Fischer]

"It’s simple. God has never made a mistake. That’s just who he is, you see. ... To the family, if you knew, if you really knew the way God works, he don’t use people who commits anything like that for his glory. No way. It’s the total opposite."
-Ray Lewis

[snickster]

Allah Akbar. lol.

[Clocker]

Wow! That other thread started over 3 years ago, in Oct 2011 and has over 1100 pages. Too much for my stamina levels. Glad I dropped out about 1 1/2 years ago.

I don't think you have missed anything. I have never posted, but I look in on that thread every 2 or 3 weeks just for amusement. It is always hard to tell if the latest posts are new or if they are the ones I saw 2 or 3 weeks ago.

[Robert Fischer]

Allah Akbar. lol.
He's African American, and shows those cultural influences in his evangelical style of speech, but he's definitely a Christian speaking of the Christian God.

[Tom]

When I first saw that thread I asked myself if I should read the whole thing to catch up, but I figured it would be faster to just read the Bible.

There ya go!~ :lol:

[dnlgfnk]

Hello, Tom.

The most intellectually honest atheist may have been Richard Rorty...

" There is no universally valid answer to moral questions such as, 'Why not be cruel?' Anybody who thinks that there are well-grounded theoretical answers to this sort of question . . . is still, in his heart, a theologian or a metaphysician. He believes in an order beyond time and change which both determines the point of human existence and establishes a hierarchy of responsibilities.”

There is a lot of borrowing from the Judeo-Christian ethic by most self-described atheists. But that's because "the law is written on the heart".

[PhantomOnTour]

Tom, I believe that many people have been deluded into kinky thinking just based on the lyrics of that song...

For many years, there were some verses that had perplexed me...It seemed to me that something was missing and odd about all of the words from that song...I just couldn't put my finger onit..

In more recent years, it was revealed to me in bits and pieces....But I finally got it..

It turns out that Lennon (not Lenin, haha), was an avowed Commie, and he worshipped Satan as well...

I can picture some of you at this very moment spitting out their coffee, but if you need a little proof, check this out...

Check out the Album Cover from The Beatles "SGT PEPPERs LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND" vinyl....On that cover, you will see a bunch of photo's of people that had an influence on the Beatles lives.... in the upper left hand corner you will see a photo of "Aleister Crowley", the founder of the church of Satan, and you will also in that mix, see a photo of the Real "LENIN"...And, if you notice the signs that the Beatles are making with their hands, they are all Satanic Signs...

If you listen to the words again to that Imagine song, this time with a more open mind, you will hear and see that it is a "setup", a setup song for "The New World Order", and Satan....Imagine there's no heaven, haha (wouldn't Satan just love that)...And the world will live as one, haha (sounds like a propaganda song for the NWO, no ?)...

Paul in the Bible, stated that we will never, all get along....
No you don't!
What a load of complete and total crap.
Mr. Crowley did not found the church of satan...where did you get that info? Google the man and do some reading....I did, and Anton LeVay is the founder of said church. It was formed years after Crowley's death (he died in the 1940's and LeVay founded his church in the mid 1960's).

Lennon was a commie who worshipped satan :lol:
Hilarious!

[MutuelClerk]

I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round....

[boxcar]

I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round....

Be sure to place your bet, then.

[horses4courses]

I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round....

I just had to let it go...... ;)

[Tom]

Imagine there's no wheels
It's easy if you try

[LottaKash]

No you don't!
What a load of complete and total crap.
Mr. Crowley did not found the church of satan...where did you get that info? Google the man and do some reading....I did, and Anton LeVay is the founder of said church. It was formed years after Crowley's death (he died in the 1940's and LeVay founded his church in the mid 1960's).

Lennon was a commie who worshipped satan :lol:
Hilarious!

Gee, I guess I had my Satanists mixed up...

So here is a little plagiarized info about all of this...enjoy !

===================================

Aleister Crowley's Influence in Music

Aleister Crowley: The Most Wicked Man in the World

To say that Satanist Aleister Crowley was an evil man would be an understatement. But before we get to who this man was and the influence he has had on this world, let us tell you a little bit about just where this guy stood morally. He said “I simply went over to Satan's side and I do not know why.” Crowley also said “I was not content to just believe in Satan, I wanted to be his chief of staff.” Crowley was once considered “The wickedest man on earth“ and was kicked out of almost every country he tried to make his home. The following overview of Crowley’s life is from Hungry for Heaven by Steve Turner:


“Born in 1875, Aleister Crowley had, like the Rolling Stones, rebelled against a regulated small-town background. He’d been raised in Leamington, Warwickshire, by parents who were members of the Strict Brethren, a fundamentalist Christian sect. From an early age young Aleister identified with the enemies of God in the Bible stories that were read to him. In particular he identified with the antichrist predicted in the book of Revelation. In 1898 he joined the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, a magical society.

“Most of Crowley’s adult life was dedicated to indulging in everything he believed God would hate: performing sex magic, taking heroin, opium, hashish, peyote and cocaine, invoking spirits, and even once offering himself to the Russian authorities to help destroy Christianity. He wrote volumes of books that he believed were dictated to him by a spirit from ancient Egypt called Aiwass. “To worship me take wine and strange drugs,” the spirit conveniently told him. “Lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture. Fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.” …

Aleister’s father Edward was a Brethren preacher, but he had inherited a fortune from his father, Crowley Ale. Edward who died when Aleister was eleven and the son inherited the fortune. From this inheritance, Aleister financed his satanic career. He began torturing and killing animals at age twelve. Crowley was a heroin addict and a sexual pervert. His Christian mother referred to him as “The Great Beast of Revelation whose number is 666,” and he was pleased with the title. He was convinced that he was the reincarnation of the magician Eliphas Levi, who died the year Crowley was born. Crowley also believed he had lived other lives, including that of Pope Alexander VI. Crowley claimed that dark powers gave him the words to his “Book of the Law.” His first wife, Rose, died in a mental asylum. His second wife also went insane. “Five mistresses committed suicide, and scores of his concubines ended in the gutter as alcoholics, drug addicts, or in mental institutions” (Hellhounds on Their Trail, p. 56).

In 1922, Crowley published Diary of a Drug Fiend, which was about the use of cocaine. He described the widespread use of cocaine among Hollywood stars, which he described as “cocaine-crazed sexual lunatics.”

As noted, Crowley died a wasted heroin addict given to rages and doubts. His last words were “I am perplexed…” Crowley worshipped the demon god Pan, the god of sexuality and lust. His “Hymn to Pan” was read at his funeral: “I rave and I rape and I rip and I rend/ Everlasting world without end!”

Crowley believed in human sacrifice and said "A made child of perfect innocence" is the most suitable victim.

The disturbing thing about all of this is the way many famous and influential people have embraced this man and his teachings. Guitarist Jimmy Page of Zeppelin is a devout follower of Satanist, Aleister Crowley, who proclaimed himself as "The Beast 666". Aleister Crowley was also a 33rd and 97th Degree Freemason and is recognized as the master Satanist of the 20th century. In 1971, guitarist Jimmy Page bought Crowley’s Boleskine House on the shore of Loch Ness where Crowley practiced his hellish, satanic sex-magick rituals, including human sacrifices. Guitarist Jimmy Page actually performed Crowley magical rituals during their concerts. Their song "Stairway to Heaven" carries the reference "May Queen," which is purportedly the name of a hideous poem written by Crowley. Page had inscribed in the vinyl of their album Led Zeppelin III, Crowley's famous "Do what thou wilt. So mete it Be.’ Page and Robert Plant claim some of Zeppelins' songs came via occultic "automatic handwriting," including their popular "Stairway to Heaven." Jimmy Page purchased Crowley's home in Scotland which overlooks Loch-ness which was once a church that burned to the ground with the congregation inside.

The cover of the Sergeant Pepper's album by the Beatles showed a background of, according to Ringo Starr, people "we like and admire" (Hit Parade, Oct. 1976, p.14). Paul McCartney said of Sgt. Pepper's cover, ". . . we were going to have photos on the wall of all our HEROES . . .

" (Musician, Special Collectors Edition, - Beatles and Rolling Stones, 1988, p.12). One of the Beatle's heroes included on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's was — the infamous Satanist, Aleister Crowley! Most people, especially in 1967, did not even know who Crowley was — but the Beatles certainly did. Crowley’s photo appeared on the Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper album cover(upper left hand corner).

The Beatles testified that the characters who appeared on the album were their “heroes.” Adolph Hitler was to be on the album but Lennon took it off at the last minute. John Lennon explained to Playboy magazine that “the whole Beatle idea was to do what you want … do what thou wilst, as long as it doesn’t hurt somebody” (Lennon, cited by David Sheff, The Playboy Interviews with John Lennon and Yoko Ono, p. 61). This was precisely what Crowley taught.

[classhandicapper]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Crowley

"Mr Crowley is one of two singles released from the Blizzard of Ozz album, with Crazy Train being the first. The song was inspired by a book about Aleister Crowley which Osbourne had read and a deck of tarot cards that were found in the studio as recording of the album was commencing. Crowley was an English occultist and ceremonial magician who had founded the Thelemite religion in the early 20th century."

Interesting. I didn't know any of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q97XUgGON4

Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head?
Oh, Mr. Crowley, did you talk to the dead?
Your life style to me seemed so tragic
With the thrill of it all
You fooled all the people with magic
Yeah, you waited on Satan's door

Mr. Charming, did you think you were pure?
Mr. Alarming, in nocturnal rapport
Uncovering things that were sacred
Manifest on this Earth
Conceived in the eye of a secret
And they scattered the afterbirth

Mr. Crowley, won't you ride my white horse?
Mr. Crowley, it's symbolic, of course
Approaching a time that is classic
I hear that maiden's call
Approaching a time that is drastic
Standing with their backs to the wall

Was it polemically sent
l want to know what you meant
I want to know, I want to know what you meant, yeah

[thaskalos]

Whoever calls Crowley a "Satanist" has never read his books.

[LottaKash]

Whoever calls Crowley a "Satanist" has never read his books.


Ok then, please give me another name for "his style"...

[mountainman]

"Imagine there's no heaven"...the man could not have been more clear, direct, or poetic. A moving anthem that takes no prisoners and suffers no fools, but still celebrates compassion and champions the human condition. Wow.

[LottaKash]

"Imagine there's no heaven"...the man could not have been more clear, direct, or poetic. A moving anthem that takes no prisoners and suffers no fools, but still celebrates compassion and champions the human condition. Wow.


Sure, "imagine no possessions"... How commie is that..?

[thaskalos]

Ok then, please give me another name for "his style"...
He was an "occultist".

Of course, Christianity makes no such distinctions. If you are not a Christian...then you worship Satan. :)

[LottaKash]

He was an "occultist".

Of course, Christianity makes no such distinctions. If you are not a Christian...then you worship Satan. :)


Occultist, semantics...Same brotherhood, all the same....Ultimately tho, Crowley was a very evil man, all the same.....

If you are not a Christian, then you worhsip satan, is a sweeping generalization, imo...

I am a Christian, and I don't believe that.... I'd say lost for the truth, maybe.. ;)

[HUSKER55]

going to church on sunday and screwing your neighbor on monday does not count as faith. Faith without action is no faith at all.

[Red Knave]

Sure, "imagine no possessions"... How commie is that..?
Man, I can't believe the free ride you're getting here. You spout such troll nonsense.

"No possessions" to me does not mean we shouldn't have toasters and iPhones. I think it means we shouldn't have a possessive relationship with things. That's not "commie". And 2 lines further on he says "a brotherhood of man". Every non-satanist religion has that at it's core. And sharing, being part of the whole, is an act of volition, not coercion like with communism etc.

And every religion has elements of the occult. Symbology like hexagrams, stars and crosses, calling on spirits whether part of a trinity or not. Divination and divinity have the same root meaning even though one is occultist and one is Christian. Not always to 'divine' the future but to be inspired by 'a' god (or God).

Not everything you read on the internet is true. Well, except that.

[LottaKash]

Man, I can't believe the free ride you're getting here. You spout such troll nonsense.

"

Free ride nothing...

If a guy like Fidel Castro said, there is no heaven, no religion, and you have no possessions, and created a song about it, what do you think Joe Average would have to say about that ?

Lennon hated God, hated religion, and loved Crowley, Hitler, and Lenin....You tell me what ?

I get your open mindedness and tolerance, just not in this instance...

[snickster]

I think Lennon was just writing a song with hypothetical situations but not necessarily stating anything definitive about his beliefs. He was just trying to make a good song and appeal to a certain liberal element. After all I don't think he every gave up any of his billions so he could be "free of possessions" and I believe he had certain religious beliefs himself about maybe Budda, and surely he was somewhat of an egotist working his butt off all his life in the music industry to get to the very top so he could be worship by the masses. He was just trying to write and intriguing song that would make people think, but he himself was just like those people that he imagined not to exists.

[mountainman]

Sure, "imagine no possessions"... How commie is that..?

I don't politicize the song, so my take away is different than yours. I suspect we differ on lots of things, and that's cool. Live and let live, brother.

[Tom]

He was an "occultist".

Of course, Christianity makes no such distinctions. If you are not a Christian...then you worship Satan. :)

Where do you get this nonsense?
Marvel Comics?
Bubble gum cads?

[acorn54]

I think Lennon was just writing a song with hypothetical situations but not necessarily stating anything definitive about his beliefs. He was just trying to make a good song and appeal to a certain liberal element. After all I don't think he every gave up any of his billions so he could be "free of possessions" and I believe he had certain religious beliefs himself about maybe Budda, and surely he was somewhat of an egotist working his butt off all his life in the music industry to get to the very top so he could be worship by the masses. He was just trying to write and intriguing song that would make people think, but he himself was just like those people that he imagined not to exists.


i think you articulated very well the whole thing about the song. just a song, his wife is certainly a "material girl" last i heard about her.

[Red Knave]

Lennon hated God, hated religion, and loved Crowley, Hitler, and Lenin....
You only have other people's opinions or statements without context that all those things are true.
I don't believe any of it.

Lennon I'm willing to give a pass to, Yoko, not so much.

[Tom]

Give Ireland back to the Irish,
Give Lapland back to the Laps,
Give China back to the Chinese,
And Yoko back to the.........

[TJDave]

You only have other people's opinions or statements without context that all those things are true.

Imagine could not have been written by someone who believes in a Christian God. The message is clear...and powerful.

All the rest, Satanism, communism, etc. is pure speculation.

[whodoyoulike]

XLgYAHHkPFs

Of course, there is good and evil.
Doesn't take religion, or a god, to show me that.

Thanks for providing link. I remember when the song first came out. I used to play it over and over. A lot of problems from the outside world attempting to intrude on everyone's lives. The song and sentiments kinda helped.

After all these years, nothing has changed.

[jballscalls]

this was an interesting thread to read Tom. Thanks for starting

[RunForTheRoses]

this was an interesting thread to read Tom. Thanks for starting

This song deserves a thread of its own:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5PQppudHc

[fast4522]

Well . . . . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1rDYB5rJXI&list=PL35976655EDF6176F

[Light]

This song deserves a thread of its own:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5PQppudHc

In that song Lennon says "I just believe in me, Yoko and me". That is after saying he doesn't believe in a lot of things including the Beatles.

That's because the Beatles are no longer. Now Lennon is no longer. So applying Lennon's own philosophy would equate to Lennon not believing in himself. And he would be right. That's because beliefs are superficial temporary illusions,not reality as history has proven.

A monk once said " I didn't believe in God until I realized I was God ". That is something Lennon did say once. That God is within. Once you realize that, you need no debate and reality is that. The rest is cosmetic.

[boxcar]

In that song Lennon says "I just believe in me, Yoko and me". That is after saying he doesn't believe in a lot of things including the Beatles.

That's because the Beatles are no longer. Now Lennon is no longer. So applying Lennon's own philosophy would equate to Lennon not believing in himself. And he would be right. That's because beliefs are superficial temporary illusions,not reality as history has proven.

A monk once said " I didn't believe in God until I realized I was God ". That is something Lennon did say once. That God is within. Once you realize that, you need no debate and reality is that. The rest is cosmetic.

Yeah...I bet he thought his mind was his kingdom, too, like Francis Quarles did.

[Tom]

You do remember John used massive amounts of hallucinogens? :rolleyes:

Wherever the music came from, it was the best out there.

[Light]

Yeah...I bet he thought his mind was his kingdom, too, like Francis Quarles did.

One's own mind is their master. We are all slaves to it. You can't fault him for that. The challenge we all face is to see that and transcend it. I think that was part of Lennon's message in "Imagine". But the answer was already given in previous Beatles songs.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'll never forget this scene from the movie "Imagine: John Lennon"

It fits here..."I'm just a guy...I write songs"

"I was just having fun with words..."

27Q_AG_nLIo

[boxcar]

One's own mind is their master. We are all slaves to it. You can't fault him for that. The challenge we all face is to see that and transcend it. I think that was part of Lennon's message in "Imagine". But the answer was already given in previous Beatles songs.

But not for a born again Christian. Christians are slaves of their Lord and Master, which is why scripture tells the saints that they are transformed by renewing of their minds (Rom 12:2) which is accomplished by having the Word of God dwell within them richly (Col 3:16) and by having their minds set on the things of the Spirit (Rom 8:6). In short only Truth transforms the mind and soul; but the source of all Truth is only Jesus Christ alone. "I am the Way, the Life and the Truth".

[Tom]

I thought that was Beyer figures?

[Light]

But not for a born again Christian. Christians are slaves of their Lord and Master, which is why scripture tells the saints that they are transformed by renewing of their minds (Rom 12:2) which is accomplished by having the Word of God dwell within them richly (Col 3:16) and by having their minds set on the things of the Spirit (Rom 8:6). In short only Truth transforms the mind and soul; but the source of all Truth is only Jesus Christ alone. "I am the Way, the Life and the Truth".

Yes, but rebirth takes place within one's heart. Jesus said "He who drinks from my mouth will become as I am and I shall be he". That transformation can only take place within, not externally.

[boxcar]

Yes, but rebirth takes place within one's heart. Jesus said "He who drinks from my mouth will become as I am and I shall be he". That transformation can only take place within, not externally.

The spiritual birth takes place from within and without. Did you cause yourself to be physically born? Then neither can you cause your own spiritual birth (c.f. Jn 3:3-8)

[Light]

The spiritual birth takes place from within and without. Did you cause yourself to be physically born? Then neither can you cause your own spiritual birth (c.f. Jn 3:3-8)

To awaken from one's animal nature into one's spiritual birth is the reason we are born in the first place. When the "student" (the individual) is ready, the master (spiritual teacher) will appear. The "master" will know you are ready because your heart will say so, not your head or your words. This will cause your rebirth.

[boxcar]

To awaken from one's animal nature into one's spiritual birth is the reason we are born in the first place. When the "student" (the individual) is ready, the master (spiritual teacher) will appear. The "master" will know you are ready because your heart will say so, not your head or your words. This will cause your rebirth.

Yeah, okay. Not exactly what the Master taught in John 3, but close enough, eh? :rolleyes:

[Light]

Yeah, okay. Not exactly what the Master taught in John 3, but close enough, eh? :rolleyes:


As I said in the "religious" thread, Jesus did not exist for 33 years on this planet only for those who were in the right place and time to privy a rebirth from a master. If you are reborn today, you don't see a man with a beard and robes nor do you see a physical being. It's all inside. If it's not inside, you are probably on acid. Even Jesus said back then, "nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is". He was referring to an internal Heaven which is what happens when you are reborn.

[horses4courses]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9r-8OfCAAEVINd.jpg:small

[snickster]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9r-8OfCAAEVINd.jpg:small

The only thing God hates are liars. Like Satan who was the father of lies. You are lying now with this propaganda so God hates you too.

[horses4courses]

The only thing God hates are liars. Like Satan who was the father of lies. You are lying now with this propaganda so God hates you too.

Thanks for passing that on.
Always good to hear from those in touch with him.
Or, is it her?

[Clocker]

You are lying now with this propaganda so God hates you too.

He is not lying. To lie, you have to understand the difference between truth and falsehood.

[snickster]

Thanks for passing that on.
Always good to hear from those in touch with him.
Or, is it her?

You tell me genius,

[thaskalos]

You tell me genius,

Of course there is a God. No doubt about it.

https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/

[JustRalph]

Of course there is a God. No doubt about it.

https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/

I'm not a religious man, but your photo link and the point of your post brought about a retort.

" God helps those who help themselves" came to mind. Of all people, this phrase should be familiar to you.

When observing your photo I was immediately emptied out of pity based on its location. No sane person could not feel immediate heartbreak when viewing that photo. I've seen it before. It tears at me, but if you get past the immediate stunning obvious implications you have to realize the bigger picture.

In fact I find myself having a hard time feeling sorrow for any country on the African continent. These are the oldest civilizations in the world. Trillions of dollars in aid has been poured into Africa over the last fifty years. Mostly from the west. Squandered. Corruption rules the day and a generalized and accepted culture that feeds on its own people keeps the continent in despair and poverty for many. Even the successful societies and countries are successful but for one reason. They sit atop oil reserves. Whether there is a God or not, I find that God can only reside where there are Godly people.

The next time someone denies American exceptionalism. Think of the African continent and compare. There may not be a God.......but Godliness exists.

[thaskalos]

I'm not a religious man, but your photo link and the point of your post brought about a retort.

" God helps those who help themselves" came to mind. Of all people, this phrase should be familiar to you.

When observing your photo I was immediately emptied out of pity based on its location. No sane person could not feel immediate heartbreak when viewing that photo. I've seen it before. It tears at me, but if you get past the immediate stunning obvious implications you have to realize the bigger picture.

In fact I find myself having a hard time feeling sorrow for any country on the African continent. These are the oldest civilizations in the world. Trillions of dollars in aid has been poured into Africa over the last fifty years. Mostly from the west. Squandered. Corruption rules the day and a generalized and accepted culture that feeds on its own people keeps the continent in despair and poverty for many. Even the successful societies and countries are successful but for one reason. They sit atop oil reserves. Whether there is a God or not, I find that God can only reside where there are Godly people.

The next time someone denies American exceptionalism. Think of the African continent and compare. There may not be a God.......but Godliness exists.

I understand the point that you are making, JR...but please try to understand the point that I am making. Those who believe in the existence of a "Heavenly God" also believe that this God is all-powerful and ever-loving...and that nothing occurs on this earth unless He WISHES it to take place. Can you imagine that? An all-powerful and ever-loving God...who allows something like this to take place...even though he has the ability to put a stop to it?

Can a God like this really exist?

[JustRalph]

I understand the point that you are making, JR...but please try to understand the point that I am making. Those who believe in the existence of a "Heavenly God" also believe that this God is all-powerful and ever-loving...and that nothing occurs on this earth unless He WISHES it to take place. Can you imagine that? An all-powerful and ever-loving God...who allows something like this to take place...even though he has the ability to put a stop to it?

Can a God like this really exist?

I am sure every one of us has pondered this question. In fact I believe I have endured through two different sermons on this topic. I have attended church from time to time. ;)

I understand your point and I also fall to what I believe would be your side of the equation. I did at one time think I was an atheist but as I have grown older and experienced things from a place that I have found to be unique in some ways, I favor the term agnostic with a very open mind.

I have witnessed terrible things. I have been around much more death and injury to both the human body and the spirit than most. It sobers a person and hardens them. But I have also witnessed the great comfort brought about by those who hold a belief in God. In the darkest of times I've seen people be lifted by their faith and relationship with their God. Whomever or whatever their God is, it's real in that sense.

We all find our own faith. Or not. I think the decision comes with age and maturity and enforced by our own personal experiences. There is no right or wrong answer. It comes from inside us.

[Clocker]

I understand the point that you are making, JR...but please try to understand the point that I am making. Those who believe in the existence of a "Heavenly God" also believe that this God is all-powerful and ever-loving...and that nothing occurs on this earth unless He WISHES it to take place. Can you imagine that? An all-powerful and ever-loving God...who allows something like this to take place...even though he has the ability to put a stop to it?


You are assuming that an all-powerful god has the same outlook on things that you do. If you had the power to stop the situation, you would. Maybe an all-powerful god doesn't care . Maybe an all-powerful god has other goals.

[thaskalos]

You are assuming that an all-powerful god has the same outlook on things that you do. If you had the power to stop the situation, you would. Maybe an all-powerful god doesn't care . Maybe an all-powerful god has other goals.
If the all-powerful God doesn't care...then why call him "benevolent", and "ever-loving"?

[Tom]

I understand the point that you are making, JR...but please try to understand the point that I am making. Those who believe in the existence of a "Heavenly God" also believe that this God is all-powerful and ever-loving...and that nothing occurs on this earth unless He WISHES it to take place. Can you imagine that? An all-powerful and ever-loving God...who allows something like this to take place...even though he has the ability to put a stop to it?

Can a God like this really exist?

No.
We are put here to prove ourselves worthy of the after life.
God is not a liberal. He is not going to take care of our every need. That is up to us.

[hcap]

No.
We are put here to prove ourselves worthy of the after life.
God is not a liberal. He is not going to take care of our every need. That is up to us.Now that I think of it, God must be compassionate, he allows conservatives to live. :lol: :lol:

Ascribing political views to mostly an unknown deity is kinda dumb

[Tom]

Analogy.
Look that up in your Funk&Wagnels.

[hcap]

Analogy???? :sleeping: :sleeping:
.You did say he was not "a liberal"

How would you or anyone know this?
Read it in Atlas Shrugged or did Rush tell you this?

[Tom]

Operative word is NOT.
What Task was suggesting was a liberal nanny take care of me God.
I said He was not that.

Slow poll day?:rolleyes:

[mountainman]

If the all-powerful God doesn't care...then why call him "benevolent", and "ever-loving"?

In summarizing how Christians knock themselves out to give God the credit when something good happens, yet hold him blameless when unspeakable horrors occur, Vince Bugliosi (the guy who prosecuted Manson), once wrote:'I want to know who God's press agent is.'

And no matter how true believers rationalize this inconsistency, they are still trying to have it both ways. And without shutting my brain down and abandoning all common sense, I could never buy into a deity that allows 3 year old toddlers to be raped and murdered. At that point, any notion of a loving, caring creator just can't pass the smell test.

This is merely my opinion, I could be completely mistaken, and no offense to believers is intended.

[classhandicapper]

I understand your point and I also fall to what I believe would be your side of the equation. I did at one time think I was an atheist but as I have grown older and experienced things from a place that I have found to be unique in some ways, I favor the term agnostic with a very open mind.


I don't really understand atheism. For me, atheism kind of implies proof that God does not exist. Atheism is fine for the tooth fairy because we have the explanation for everything associated with teeth, pillows, and money. ;) There is no reason to even consider the possibility that the tooth fairy exists.

We still need an explanation for the universe. But our understanding of the universe is so limited, the possibility that it was created or designed by some power, force, or different realm beyond our understanding seems quite feasible to me.

For me, it will always be faith vs. a healthy agnosticism.

[Greyfox]

Finally Shirley MacLaine has all of the answers.

https://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/kevin-carter-vulture.jpg?w=700&h=466

According to MacLaine when we see horrors in this life time, we are looking at too small a picture.
We have to look at the Karma that surrounds us and our ancestors.
That Karma will balance out over time.
So if something good or bad takes place in your life, it might or might not have something to do with you.
It's all about the balance of Karma in the Universe.:rolleyes:
Don't take misfortune or good luck personally.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2951513/Outcry-Shirley-MacLaine-asks-Holocaust-victims-paying-sins-past-lives-Comments-attacked-offensive-wrong-Jewish-campaigners.html

[Clocker]

If the all-powerful God doesn't care...then why call him "benevolent", and "ever-loving"?

People who call him that assume that an all-powerful God exists and that he/she/it thinks like they do and cares about people. Like the old line about God created man in his image, and man returned the favor. The God of most major religions is very human-like.

[FantasticDan]

The God of most major religions is very human-like.That's why I worship Cthulu. I like to shake things up. :ThmbUp:

[hcap]

Operative word is NOT.
What Task was suggesting was a liberal nanny take care of me God.
I said He was not that.

Slow poll day?:rolleyes:That is NOT what Gus was suggesting. He was pointing out the random violence of the natural world. An innocent child was being stalked by a vulture. The caption of that photo.

"a vulture preying upon an emaciated Sudanese toddler"

There is no political side to that photo, unless of course you are a misguided conservative who misapplies a rather poor understanding of Darwinian evolution as ONLY the "survival of the fittest" to economic theory, as some conservatives like you do.

The higher herd animals (and some not so high) also have evolved care for weaker members of the herd. In humans it is called empathy and compassion.

Why would your anthropomorphic God allow an innocent emaciated child to suffer so horrendously if he was truly all loving?

[Tom]

That is NOT what Gus was suggesting.


Give it up. You missed the point again.
I said it was an analogy - it was what I said not Gus.
RITF.

[hcap]

Give it up. You missed the point again.
I said it was an analogy - it was what I said not Gus.
RITF.You have no point. This was the interaction. Verbatim......

I understand the point that you are making, JR...but please try to understand the point that I am making. Those who believe in the existence of a "Heavenly God" also believe that this God is all-powerful and ever-loving...and that nothing occurs on this earth unless He WISHES it to take place. Can you imagine that? An all-powerful and ever-loving God...who allows something like this to take place...even though he has the ability to put a stop to it?

Can a God like this really exist?
No.
We are put here to prove ourselves worthy of the after life.
God is not a liberal. He is not going to take care of our every need. That is up to us.
YOUR nonsense is only begetting more nonsense. Bionically speaking of course :lol: :lol:

WTF is RTTF?

[TJDave]

Of course there is a God. No doubt about it.

https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/vulture-stalking-a-child/

Thanks. I don't know how I managed to miss this until now. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention.

[Tom]

See, you never pay attention.
I posted RITF, RTTF.

SIF2. :rolleyes:

[horses4courses]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-De5mxCAAIyNnL.jpg:medium

[Tom]

God tells to fight evil.

[classhandicapper]

I wouldn't call Jesus a liberal on matters of money. He was more of a libertarian. I think He would be in favor of rich people VOLUNTARILY giving their wealth to help the poor. I seriously doubt He would be in favor of corrupt politicians using the threat of arrest to take that wealth and then promising it to others in order to expand their power. He might tell the wealthy not to worry about it so much because there are more important things in life than worrying about how corrupt liberals are buying votes using their wealth inefficiently, but that's another issue.

[hcap]

Gc-LJ_3VbUA

WTF Tom RTTF?

RandTheTotalFool?

[Tom]

Was that supposed to a reply to something?

[Clocker]

Was that supposed to a reply to something?

Just sharing his nightly dread that John Galt is under his bed and Ayn Rand is in his bedroom closet.

[hcap]

Not a reply, but a question to some meaningless nonsense you said Tom
Just thought I would mention SSJ and AR

[sammy the sage]

Was that supposed to a reply to something?

about AS MEANingFUL as MOST of your replies ON ANY thread on ANY topic... :rolleyes: :lol: :faint:


Actually Tom...liked the way you STARTED this thread...it is an interesting topic...just thought a TASTE of your OWN medicine was due! ;)