Improving the Racing Experience

[Track Phantom]

I'm trying to gather ideas for an article I'm writing and this is the very best place to go for those ideas.

I'm looking for changes that would address the following:




Better experience on track for casual fans (example might be shorter durations between post times, live music between post times or less complicated ways to make a bet but still incorporate an opinion on a horse - see below)
Better experience on track for hardcore players (example might be showing the "live tickets" after each leg of a horizontal wager, VIP card for meeting an attendance threshold for regulars that provide unlimited coffee and soda, or on-track only contests)
Wider and bigger initiatives that have a significant impact to hardcore, everyday players (an example might be the modification of the archaic and unfair tax laws or lower takeout rates)
Ideally, I'm looking for things that would get a hardcore, everyday "home" player to the track on a regular basis and things that might get a 20-something couple to head to a night of live racing vs other entertainment options.

Any feedback here would be greatly appreciated!!


Regarding complicated betting: Most casual players I've been to the track with want to "pick a horse" but have no interest in trying to figure out how to bet. They may want to invest $10 in the race and like #4 but end up relegated to a win and/or show bet because they don't understand ticket construction. it would be nice if there was a bet option where a player can go to the window and bet a quickpick ticket keying the #4 with a budget of $10 and have it spit back a random combo weighted with the 4 running first and/or second. Just an idea.

[letswastemoney]

Free parking and admission.

The money can be spent on wagering, buying a program/DRF, or eating lunch at the track.

[Augenj]

Replace the tote board with a digital one that shows what a $1.00 bet will pay for any type of wager. Fractions are so 1930's and a lot of people just can't do 7/2 or 3-5. They can figure out multiples of $1.00.

[thaskalos]

In my opinion...the only way to induce the hardcore player to return to the track is to drastically reduce the takeout for on-track wagers. Anything less would be laughable to the regular bettor.

[Track Phantom]

In my opinion...the only way to induce the hardcore player to return to the track is to drastically reduce the takeout for on-track wagers. Anything else would be laughable to the regular bettor.

I actually agree with you quite a bit here. The only other thing that might get me to the track was a contest for on-track players only. When I was in MN and followed Canterbury, if they had a contest for CBY live racing for only on-track, I might be inclined to be there for that.

All other components of the on-track experience are, for me, negative in relation to what I have at home.

(A side note: Last time I went to the track in person was Belmont Day and drove to Retama Park.

I called in advance and said myself and another guy are coming early that day and wanted to reserve a table. They said they didn't "open" until 5PM for live racing. I explained the Belmont Stakes and loaded undercard. After numerous calls, they agreed to allow us to sit at our tables early.

Once there, we went to our seats, got things in order and started watching the Belmont undercard. A security guard came up and all but threw us out of the joint. After much back and forth, he agreed that the reservation manager had given me permission in advance but he was revoking it. I almost went to jail. Finally, after bursting blood vessels, we were able to stay in our seats.

They were feeding in the NBC audio about 2 hours before the Belmont and it was so loud, I couldn't hear the other guy speaking.

The TV's were off and on blurry, bad connection.

Couldn't get internet as it was a weak signal.

All in all, it was a horrid experience).

[Stillriledup]

Part of the experience for young people, and this might sound harsh, is to not have to look at LOTS of old people. Not that young people don't love their grandpa, but when seeking out entertainment options, people aren't usually wanting to go to places where everyone is "old".

I heard that from young people i've brought to the track for the first time....everyone says to me "everyone is old". Now i know that del mar has done a decent job at getting young people there, but when young people go out to a club, they usually go to clubs where everyone is in their 20s. Young people don't go to dance clubs where 80 percent of the people are 50 or older.

Another thing to help the ontrack experience is get rid of any teller who has a bad attitude. You all know who i'm talking about, these old geezers who slow pay change looking for tips and when you say "thank you" they NEVER respond with "your welcome" or "no, thank YOU" they seem to have this attitude that you didnt tip them or that you're using the SAM machine instead of them. Some are nice and friendly, but most of the "friendly" banter is designed to soak you for a tip at some point, maybe if you cash you'll go to their window and toss them a few bucks, its really disingenuous behavior and its pretty widespread...i've never gotten any good "vibe" from tellers, so i think that the teller attitudes need to change, getting young and attractive tellers in there with better attitudes wouldn't hurt either.

I know this would be tricky to pull off with state governments having their hand in things, but "sales on bets" would be a great promotion. When you walk into the track, why not see a sign that says "big sale today, 3rd race exacta bets only 5% for ontrack patrons only" or if that's not possible and the takeout has to be lowered for all, "3rd race exa bets just FIVE percent today". Tracks NEVER have a "Sale" on wagers.....you can get a shirt on sale at macys, but you can't ever, ever ever get a "sale" price on anything at the track.

Also, there's never a sale in the food court either. How about a "happy hour" from 2pm to 3pm where coffee is a buck? You never see a "sale" at the track, whether its an "admission sale", gift shop sales are few and far between, you rarely if ever see "half off on hamburgers from 1pm to 1:30" etc, all tracks want to do is soak you for every dime you have, they treat the customers as if they might not ever come back and they need to get every dollar TODAY. Its not really the best way to cultivate happy customers.

As far as SAM machines go, the track needs to have some machines cordoned off for privacy. If you go to a bank and are making a transaction, you don't have the next customer in line breathing on your neck looking at what you are doing.....same goes for the pharmacy at a drug store, there's a sign that says give the person in front of you some room, in other words BACK THE YOU KNOW WHAT UP!

I'd like to see Sam machines where you can essentially walk into a private area and make your bets without someone watching what you are playing or how much you are playing...so, i think they need to get into 2015, people like privacy, especially when they are investing hard earned money.

[Stoleitbreezing]

For causal fans/players:

I would try to make every signal in HD. The new generation the industry needs to survive primarily watches all their programming in HD.

Making betting simpler and having less time between posts would also help improve how they view the experience. The new generation isn't privy to waiting 30 minutes between posts for their "reward". Cut that down and add in some other entertainment between the shorter posts.

Regular players:

Require a lower take out to get back to the track.

Also need better membership/rewards programs. I am aware of players cards, but something like get a free program or free sandwich based on money spent or number of times you visit. Currently, the rewards are only for the amount of dollars you spend. Maybe If I go 5 times I get a free program or sandwich.

[whodoyoulike]

Free parking and admission.

The money can be spent on wagering, buying a program/DRF, or eating lunch at the track.

I'm thinking along the same lines except charge for parking (a reasonable price) but, allow free admission. Maybe include two free tickets at the turnstiles for salty popcorn. The customer savings will eventually be spent on drinks and/or wagering. The salty popcorn thing is what I believe movie theaters do or used to do when you have a captive audience. I've never understood charging for admission at the track.

And, if the tracks want to get bleeping about it, they can always try charging to use the restroom(s).

[andtheyreoff]

Twilight racing during the week.

[clocker7]

Figure out how minor league baseball, arena football, Las Vegas and Indian casinos are able to attract people to otherwise very unimportant time-wasting. And how they make it seem exciting.

[elhelmete]

Horse racing should not try to attract the 20-something crowd. It's a mistake, and not in line with racing's strengths.

Flame away, but I'm serious.

[jk3521]

Quote :"Part of the experience for young people, and this might sound harsh, is to not have to look at LOTS of old people. Not that young people don't love their grandpa, but when seeking out entertainment options, people aren't usually wanting to go to places where everyone is "old".

I heard that from young people i've brought to the track for the first time....everyone says to me "everyone is old". Now i know that del mar has done a decent job at getting young people there, but when young people go out to a club, they usually go to clubs where everyone is in their 20s. Young people don't go to dance clubs where 80 percent of the people are 50 or older." Unquote.

That's a good idea , ban old people from the track or give us a special seniors section so we won't chase the youngins' away. :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Horse racing should not try to attract the 20-something crowd. It's a mistake, and not in line with racing's strengths.

Flame away, but I'm serious.

I think the first problem and maybe the biggest one is that there's really no "racing". Racing is just a concept, what we really have is individual tracks and state governments acting in behalf of their own best interest. The fact that they all run horses in a circle is just a coincidence.

Rather than try and "Attract" an audience, they just need to really make the experience exciting and give customers and prospective customers a good bang for their buck. We know that the good bang for the buck is the problem. Tracks are only going to get so many customers the way they run things...lower prices on takeout, concessions, parking and admission and you get more people to show up, its just supply and demand, its not rocket science. Tracks seem to want to acquire these customers WITHOUT lowering prices, without lowering takeout or admission or parking or food. Its just not going to happen, people aren't stupid. They're not going to sit in piles of bird poo while drinking coffee that costs 4.50 so they can smell people burning drugs a few feet away.

[letswastemoney]

Racing needs to make people understand that studying horses can be a more rewarding experience than slot machines or cards, whether profitable or not (although it should be advertised as profitable).

Looking at past performances, using your mind to pick a horse, disagreeing with others and seeing your horse win ... you are going to feel good after all that work and pressing a button on a slot machine for a few dollars profit cannot duplicate working for the win and seeing your vision happen.

*then again, all of this can be done from home. I don't want to see tracks die, but there's little incentive to go when I can do this for free on my phone.

[duncan04]

Horse racing should not try to attract the 20-something crowd. It's a mistake, and not in line with racing's strengths.

Flame away, but I'm serious.

Wait, so don't focus on getting new young blood into the sport?? Dumbest thing I've ever heard. So what do you do when the "old" guys start dying off? Let the sport die with them? :bang:

[elhelmete]

Wait, so don't focus on getting new young blood into the sport?? Dumbest thing I've ever heard. So what do you do when the "old" guys start dying off? Let the sport die with them? :bang:

Getting them while they're 20 and broke is different than getting them when they're, say, 35 and not broke.

[Redboard]

Give 5 cents back on all $2 win tickets bought at the track that lost but didn’t finish last. I realize it’s essentially a 2.5% rebate. Casinos have learned a long time ago that if a bettor doesn’t completely lose his money, he feels like he’s won. This is why the slots machines are programmed not to bankrupt a player, not immediately anyway. If someone feels that he has a nickel left in his pocket, he’s more likely to make another bet.

[cnollfan]

Valento,

Your own post shows some simple things tracks can do not to drive away customers.

Be open for business on a big racing day like the Belmont.
Management and security on the same page.
Have working TV sets with volume controls.
Strong Wi-Fi signal.

How hard is that?

As for new blood, something that includes the energy of the horse/jockey, and something that makes the complicated wagering menu less intimidating. People can still fall in love with horse racing at the track and turn into simulcast bettors. I don't think anybody who is not first exposed to live racing can fall in love with simulcasting.

[dilanesp]

I don't think there are any magic bullets. But I do think that in general, you want to go in two contradictory directions-- (1) entice serious gamblers with widespread free simulcasting and ADW, lowered takeouts, big competitive fields, interesting wagering options, and benefits for people who bet a lot; and (2) making racetracks really nice and luxurious for the casual fan, and charging a premium price for live racing that can support the upkeep of the facility and keep out the riff-raff.

For the most part (takeout excepted), that's what Del Mar tries to do, and what NYRA tries to do at Saratoga, and it's the only business strategy anyone has found that really works.

[Stillriledup]

Getting them while they're 20 and broke is different than getting them when they're, say, 35 and not broke.

Also, if you spend money marketing to the 20 year olds, that's money you could have spent ignoring the 20 year olds and concentrating on the 35 year olds.

I like your thought process, concentrate on a target demographic as opposed to being all over the shop trying to get anyone you can get your hands on as a customer.

Racing's biggest issue is that they have a word of mouth problem, current customers are not generally a happy group so its really unlikely they're going to recommend their friends (or their worst enemies) to become "Racing fans".

Tracks need to work on the word of mouth part....seems like they have a LONG way to go.

[NJ Stinks]

I like to think I qualify as a "hardcore player". :jump:

And as such, the main thing that would bring me back on a regular basis is a place where I can get a seat at the track restaurant and smoke at that table. If the track or OTB can't even do that for me and the people I bring who want to smoke, we will continue to get together and play from somebody's home.

My last trip to Las Vegas included drinking, smoking, and betting in racebooks. The world didn't end as we know it.

[tanner12oz]

Tracks should follow the casino retention plan with player reward cards featuring free play and comps...get them on the list and then keep it coming with mail. Gotta have promotions and giveaways just like others sports. You see the people show up for the bobbleheads beer mugs or whatever other giveaways happen.

live music is a big winner with big numbers showing up at Sa for the summer shows no reason to not have it on a wider scale

gotta make the game more easily understandable. Dump the antique toteniard and simply show the payouts. I've been in the game for 10 years and I can't keep track of alot of the numbers appearing for a split second on loop. The signals and audio are awful at mist tracks..seriously its like 8mm threes company rerun quality...its terrible.

need to show the big payouts and super hot girls ( on big days) to lure people in. When giacomo won the derby every track on earth should have flooded the market with the super payout. Imo no other form of gambling offers the chance of the kinda payouts horse racing offers...

with some savvy marketing you can make anyone want to do anything...the issue is racing doesn't give a crap about attracting anyone. 100% convinced that probably 85% of tracks could careless if 1 person or 10k show up

[elhelmete]

Also, if you spend money marketing to the 20 year olds, that's money you could have spent ignoring the 20 year olds and concentrating on the 35 year olds.

I like your thought process, concentrate on a target demographic as opposed to being all over the shop trying to get anyone you can get your hands on as a customer.

Racing's biggest issue is that they have a word of mouth problem, current customers are not generally a happy group so its really unlikely they're going to recommend their friends (or their worst enemies) to become "Racing fans".

Tracks need to work on the word of mouth part....seems like they have a LONG way to go.

Sell 'em Coors Light at 25, Balvenie at 35.

[Dave Schwartz]

1. Reduce takeout to the point where horse racing is competitive with sports betting.

2. Make wagering at the track a better deal than wagering with an ADW.


I have had this conversation with track management on more than one occasion. They always say that they cannot afford to cut the take. Then I say, "That's because the basic business model doesn't work. Fix THAT first."

Then they ask how.

Then I say, "Get other revenue streams besides the gambler."

Then they say, "Like what?"

Then I say, "Television. Improve the product to the point where people want to watch."

Then they say, "How do we do that?"

Then I say, "Get more winning players by lowering the takeout to 7%."

Then the entire conversation starts over with why they can't afford that.


1. Lower the take.
2. Improve the product - not better horses - a better experience.
3. Get more winners.
4. Promote, promote, promote.

[Longshot6977]

This is really for new or casual fans that the OP was asking about. I have a few thoughts after reading some of the above posts, and i agree with many of them. If we are trying to get people in going TO the track (but really why go TO the track with home betting available?), then maybe these can be contemplated:

Regarding too many old people at the track; nothing wrong with that. But what about a little dress code for people. Some old people dress like bums (some do dress nice though). No sweatpants or cutoff shirts, no sweaty or dirty t-shirts etc.

But we have to think about the current state of mind when it comes to wagering. Horserace wagering lost out to 'dumb' casino games and slot machines etc that people liked and didn't have to do any work to win money. Handicapping takes work and people (old and new blood) don't want to do it. Why are we so obssessed with trying to figure out the winner after doing lots of work and spending time to do it? We had to do a lot of homework to win a few bucks. What about something 'dumbed down' for the average new blood like getting paid $3 for every $2 bet on any horse that is won by a jockey wearing blue or red etc? How about winning a little if the winning post position is odd, or even, in certain races? If the winning horse is white, you get 10-1 or something silly like that. Or bet a horse where you get 5-1 if it wins by 4 lengths or more. You've seen people bet the phone numbers, ages, birthdays etc, well this is kinda the same thinking where no work is involved.

People bet old horseraces at the American Legion, Knights of Columbus etc where they don't know the horses from years ago (well, some guys might) and just watch the old race and have fun betting/'winning some easy money. No work involved. Just buy a ticket on the 2 horse or whatever you like and watch the race. The tracks should rethink how wagering is done to facilitate the betting by new blood. They need to keep current with the times.

[tanner12oz]

My local otb which has since closed had a bar, restaurant, tvs and booze but couldn't get a soul to show up a watch a football game or sporting event other then racing...why is that? The local bar can get people in the door with the same booze, the same tvs, the same everything but for whatever reason that same customer won't step foot in the local otb. The whole operation that is racing, tracks, otbs etc etc cannot bring anyone in...everything about it is tired and only leads to further destruction

[Track Phantom]

Interesting ideas here. Some are great, some are too unrealistic but still might accomplish the goal. In order to really facilitate thoughts and ideas, you must first start with identifying what is broken and why.

I believe horse racing has two major hurdles (as it relates to non-serious players) and many smaller hurdles to overcome.

The two major hurdles:



Too complicated
Not enough stimulation
If racing could address JUST those two issues in the next year, you might see an increase in interest.

ISSUE:

TOO COMPLICATED.....The game is far too complicated for the casual fan. With all of the race conditions, betting options, differing payout listings, it's no wonder people stay away. Imagine how intimidating this must be for most people.

SOLUTION: Offer free abbreviated past performances with free scratch sheets to all who arrive on track. The PP's should list just the very basic information and a help sheet to identify what the data is and why it's important. Also, create "QuickPick" betting machines that allow the player to select the race, their budget for the race, their desired risk/reward (high, medium, low) and their key horse. Let the machine auto-pick the bet construction randomly but with the key horse winning. It's kind of lottery meets newbie horseplayer with at least a "chance" at winning big money.


ISSUE:

NOT ENOUGH STIMULATION....Tracks have between 26 minutes and 30 minutes between post times. If you're not digging into the PP's and constructing bets, this time is painful. If you go to an NBA game, you have roughly 25 minutes of actual "action" per hour, give or take. An NFL game might be a bit less. You go to a casino and play slots, you have a 1 to 1 ratio of action per minute. At the track, you have what amounts to about 3-4 minutes of "action" per hour. Over the course of the day, this gets looooong. I've seen it first hand.

SOLUTION: Reduce post times to 20 minutes between races. If you do this, you're able to cut out 6 to 10 minutes per race of down time. This amounts to roughly an hour to an hour and a half out of the day. This is a huge deal. Secondly, offer some promotions, giveaways between races. Maybe a drawing for $5 vouchers for 5 people between races. Maybe $5 after the 1st, 2nd and 3rd race. Up to $10 for the 4th, 5th and 6th, and $50 for the last couple. Keep people there for the duration and it keeps a few minutes of attention on something else. This is a small investment by the track per day (a few hundred bucks). Also, live music, large screen showings of NFL or key major league sporting events, onsite only contests that involve the live racing only or combined with big sporting events, and so on. All in all, the time between races have to be interesting and fun for the casual fan. Lots of cheap ways to do this. At the end of the last race, people should be saying "oh, that went quick", not "I can't wait to get out of here".

[Stoleitbreezing]

My local otb which has since closed had a bar, restaurant, tvs and booze but couldn't get a soul to show up a watch a football game or sporting event other then racing...why is that? The local bar can get people in the door with the same booze, the same tvs, the same everything but for whatever reason that same customer won't step foot in the local otb. The whole operation that is racing, tracks, otbs etc etc cannot bring anyone in...everything about it is tired and only leads to further destruction

Strange you mentioned one with a bar. The OTB I was located near was also a sit down restaurant and bar. They separated the two by designating an OTB side and a bar side. The patrons could go to each side through one of two doors and eat or wager. Tv's in the bar were showing the races and other sports. I guess the big difference from the other example mentioned above was a restaurant/bar area that did well with the 20's crowd and middle-class in the area.

[elhelmete]

Strange you mentioned one with a bar. The OTB I was located near was also a sit down restaurant and bar. They separated the two by designating an OTB side and a bar side. The patrons could go to each side through one of two doors and eat or wager. Tv's in the bar were showing the races and other sports. I guess the big difference from the other example mentioned above was a restaurant/bar area that did well with the 20's crowd and middle-class in the area.

The OTBs I visited in Australia (TAB) were like this. There was a full-fledged bar on one side and a modest sized OTB on the other. The two were connected and similarly furnished and maintained (i.e., both 'sides' were clean and comfortable).

[elhelmete]

(A side note: Last time I went to the track in person was Belmont Day and drove to Retama Park.

I called in advance and said myself and another guy are coming early that day and wanted to reserve a table. They said they didn't "open" until 5PM for live racing. I explained the Belmont Stakes and loaded undercard. After numerous calls, they agreed to allow us to sit at our tables early.

Once there, we went to our seats, got things in order and started watching the Belmont undercard. A security guard came up and all but threw us out of the joint. After much back and forth, he agreed that the reservation manager had given me permission in advance but he was revoking it. I almost went to jail. Finally, after bursting blood vessels, we were able to stay in our seats.

They were feeding in the NBC audio about 2 hours before the Belmont and it was so loud, I couldn't hear the other guy speaking.

The TV's were off and on blurry, bad connection.

Couldn't get internet as it was a weak signal.

All in all, it was a horrid experience).

I hear you on this one.

First off, a disclaimer...Santa Anita and Del Mar (and Los Al) are my home tracks, and IMHO they do a fantastic job with their on-track experience. They bend over backward. My dad, who's a horseman back east and plays mostly at Suffolk Downs, visits a couple times a year and his best comment ever was one day at SA when after an hour he said to me, "wow, nobody has told me to go **** myself."

There's still a couple little things that could be touched upon to improve the experience:

Tracks are by and large big ancient buildings cut up like rabbit warrens, and the way they handle actual seating (i.e., where can I go with my admission price) can be confusing. I'd be in favor of a pretty flat seat pricing structure that gives lots of seating options under the grandstand price, clubhouse price, and turf club price. Santa Anita is almost at the point where they're carving up too many areas for premium/a la carte pricing, I'm, not thrilled.

The best seats should not be reserved for horsemen in perpetuity. Look at the names on some of the boxes...may as well be headstones. I'm in favor of a system where seasons boxes for horsemen could be sub-rented out (owners would recoup the $) weekly so that regular people could have the best seats most of the racing days. I see plenty of empty horsemen boxes even at Santa Anita.

It's expensive, but TVs should be totally upgraded throughout the plant.

[biggestal99]

Getting them while they're 20 and broke is different than getting them when they're, say, 35 and not broke.

Lol. I went with my weekly paycheck when i turned 18 until i moved out of my parents house when 23. 5 stright years of saturday attendance. Imostly lost but had a whale of a time, meet touts, trainers, owners, hell everyone low and high and in between, i was highly amused and my clothes smelled like cigars, ah the good old days. Even now when i smell a cigar it harkens me backto the halcyon days of my youth.
Allan

[porchy44]

Racing don't care about casual fans or hard core players. They are fine with 100 people in attendance for live racing, and 50 people in attendance simulcast days. Slots will pay for the show and still make them a profit (at least for now).

[thespaah]

Horse racing should not try to attract the 20-something crowd. It's a mistake, and not in line with racing's strengths.

Flame away, but I'm serious.
Please elaborate....

[thespaah]

1. Reduce takeout to the point where horse racing is competitive with sports betting.

2. Make wagering at the track a better deal than wagering with an ADW.


I have had this conversation with track management on more than one occasion. They always say that they cannot afford to cut the take. Then I say, "That's because the basic business model doesn't work. Fix THAT first."

Then they ask how.

Then I say, "Get other revenue streams besides the gambler."

Then they say, "Like what?"

Then I say, "Television. Improve the product to the point where people want to watch."

Then they say, "How do we do that?"

Then I say, "Get more winning players by lowering the takeout to 7%."

Then the entire conversation starts over with why they can't afford that.


1. Lower the take.
2. Improve the product - not better horses - a better experience.
3. Get more winners.
4. Promote, promote, promote.
The shocking part is the fact they have to ask "how do we do that?"...
Assuming these are track "Suits' and also they are college educated with business and marketing degrees. And assuming they are being paid a pretty decent salary, how is it possible for these people to have the nerve to ask "how do we do that?".....If I was in charge, I'd fire the first person that said those words..

[thespaah]

My local otb which has since closed had a bar, restaurant, tvs and booze but couldn't get a soul to show up a watch a football game or sporting event other then racing...why is that? The local bar can get people in the door with the same booze, the same tvs, the same everything but for whatever reason that same customer won't step foot in the local otb. The whole operation that is racing, tracks, otbs etc etc cannot bring anyone in...everything about it is tired and only leads to further destruction
Funny you should mention that.....I have a friend in Upsatet NY that worked part time on Saturdays in a little sports bar right across the street from an OTB.....Here's the rub...Most of the bettors under the age of 60 would come to the bar with handicapping pubs in hand, drink and make their picks then walk across the street to the OTB or call in/bet on line and watch the races in the bar.
Now, the OTB is closed. But wait.....The owner of the bar decided to apply to have wagering machines in HIS other bar right up the street. Capital District OTB approved him for 5 SAM's.....He kicked out all the degenerates that used to hang out at the OTB all day.If they come to the bar and don't spend any money or bother the paying patrons, they are banned..As a result, the revenue through the bar's machines is greater than the handle at the old OTB.
The thing that sucks though is the tellers in the OTB who are really nice people lost their jobs. Several of them worked there for years.

[thespaah]

Lol. I went with my weekly paycheck when i turned 18 until i moved out of my parents house when 23. 5 stright years of saturday attendance. Imostly lost but had a whale of a time, meet touts, trainers, owners, hell everyone low and high and in between, i was highly amused and my clothes smelled like cigars, ah the good old days. Even now when i smell a cigar it harkens me backto the halcyon days of my youth.
Allan
Reminds me of ME....I was a regular at the Meadowlands all through the 80's where harness was where most of my action went.
When the Big M was holding 170 date meets for harness I was there 50 to 60 of them. During the 100 date T-Bred meet, i guess I went oh, 25 to 30 times each meet.
Did AQU and BEL as well. Occasionally went down to MTH and when GSP was rebuilt, I would head down there as well. Usually 5 or so times during each meet.

[mostpost]

Part of the experience for young people, and this might sound harsh, is to not have to look at LOTS of old people. Not that young people don't love their grandpa, but when seeking out entertainment options, people aren't usually wanting to go to places where everyone is "old".
I know what you mean. I hate it when I go to the track with my friends and have all those eighty year olds ruin the experience for us 73 year olds. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[rastajenk]

Make available (as in, for free) a program with simplified past performances. You can still have the current version, but also have one that doesn't have run-up distances, temperatures, hieroglyphic race conditions, and most of the other secret codes that clutter up a line. You guys as racing veterans might appreciate and exploit some of that minutiae, but new people don't, and their hit rate will still be about the same. Keep It Simple.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I agree that it is too complicated for your casual fan. I've taken a number of people to the track and their attention span just doesn't take to it like numbers people like myself.

Keno is a very popular game because it takes little thought. I would try to introduce some kind of Keno wagers to the game that allow for even penny wagers if possible.

Maybe something like an inside/outside Exacta or Trifecta in which you get the 2 or 3 inside horses and 2 or 3 outside horses? Or you can bet a single number throughout the entire card WPS in a single bet?

Maybe something like "Beat The Favorite" in an Exacta in which the player gets the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th odds on favorites at post time?

Just throwing around some crazy ideas, but you have to make the wagering simpler. People want to go up to the window and say: "I want to bet #10 right here in this Keno booklet...".

[turninforhome10]

All I would need to improve my racing experience would be 2 things
Set up all the handicapping just like the Hong Kong model
Allow me to have a streaming stick(ie firestick, chromecast) that would allow HDMI plug and have direct access to the streams without the middle man( dish and HRTV) RTN could sell it for 80 plus 35 a month for script.
That is seriously all I need. The truth that can be seen with my eyes and a "real" record of the horses ailments and workouts. And for all those potential owners out there, transparency to make successful claims. If I had the records that HJKC, It would be worth going to the track to check out the horses.
If the casual fan has access to better data, they might be apt to invest more money. The hook for the tracks would be to charge for all-access streaming. Allowing owners and trainers watch a horse work in the morning as well as cooling out in a regulated cooling out area.
Easy.....right?

[jahura2]

Agree with pretty all the suggested improvements. I have
one very simple observation.....keep the place clean, a freshly painted, scrubbed venue makes all of those old grouchy farts not look so old!
In my locale, Keeneland is clean-Turfway is not, Turfway's a dump-Keeneland is not.

[thaskalos]

Attracting new blood to the game is important...but it isn't likely to happen at a time when the game can't even hold on to the loyal, long-time fans that it currently has. Confirmed horseplayers are fleeing this game in droves...and those who remain wager only a fraction of what they formerly wagered. I read this board regularly...and can recount many posters here testifying that they have drastically reduced their betting action...but I can't remember even a single case where a member of this site has declared that he is wagering the same or more now than he did in the past. When even horseplayers like us lose interest...then the game is in big trouble indeed.

In a gambling game where there is a need for considerable at-home preparation...there must be a financial upside to warrant the sizable investment in time and effort. These "serious" gambling games are ultimately judged by the level of success that their best players are able to attain...and horse racing has nothing to offer in this regard. There is no real proof that there are ANY "successful" horseplayers out there...and very few have ever seen one. How do you distinguish the "real thing" from the legend and the rumors?

A young American guy with a bankroll and a gambling interest can go to Youtube, and search for the lifestyles of any of poker's best players...and he will likely be very impressed by what he finds. Beautiful homes...nice cars...and all the other trappings of wealth that the top players of a gambling game are supposed to possess. And then he does a similar search on the lifestyles of horse racing's best players, and all he finds is a Russian miilionaire player who is allowed to play a game vastly dissimilar to the one offered in this country.

Young athletes need role models...and young gamblers do, as well. And in horse racing, in THIS country at least...there AREN'T any.

[dilanesp]

Attracting new blood to the game is important...but it isn't likely to happen at a time when the game can't even hold on to the loyal, long-time fans that it currently has. Confirmed horseplayers are fleeing this game in droves...and those who remain wager only a fraction of what they formerly wagered. I read this board regularly...and can recount many posters here testifying that they have drastically reduced their betting action...but I can't remember even a single case where a member of this site has declared that he is wagering the same or more now than he did in the past. When even horseplayers like us lose interest...then the game is in big trouble indeed.

In a gambling game where there is a need for considerable at-home preparation...there must be a financial upside to warrant the sizable investment in time and effort. These "serious" gambling games are ultimately judged by the level of success that their best players are able to attain...and horse racing has nothing to offer in this regard. There is no real proof that there are ANY "successful" horseplayers out there...and very few have ever seen one. How do you distinguish the "real thing" from the legend and the rumors?

A young American guy with a bankroll and a gambling interest can go to Youtube, and search for the lifestyles of any of poker's best players...and he will likely be very impressed by what he finds. Beautiful homes...nice cars...and all the other trappings of wealth that the top players of a gambling game are supposed to possess. And then he does a similar search on the lifestyles of horse racing's best players, and all he finds is a Russian miilionaire player who is allowed to play a game vastly dissimilar to the one offered in this country.

Young athletes need role models...and young gamblers do, as well. And in horse racing, in THIS country at least...there AREN'T any.

Of course racing should do things for its existing fan base and for bettors and handicappers, but you shouldn't assume that serving that population is a precondition to obtaining new fans. Indeed, in many ways it can be antithetical.

Think of the Kentucky Derby. That's an AWFUL experience for a bettor and handicapper. Long lines, expensive admission, very hard to see the track and observe the races, no space to put your stuff or spread out and handicap, etc.

But it's a wonderful experience for many casual fans and, indeed, makes more money and draws more people than any other single card in American racing. Mint juleps, My Old Kentucky Home, beautiful women dressed to the nines and wearing distinctive hats, the roar of the crowds, celebrities and red carpets, etc.

The point is, the way to generate new fans, get young people, etc., is to deliver an entertainment experience. But that's NOT what existing bettors and handicappers want-- they want cheap admission, a place to spread out their stuff, and a good view of the track or the television screens. My experience with long-time horseplayers is that they tend to hate all the stuff that tracks do to bring in new customers. Certainly, a lot of people here hate Del Mar's approach to marketing the sport, given how they reacted when I defended it.

So I think in the long term you have to separate the two. A track that serves veteran horseplayers well is likely to be unattractive to the casual fan. But if you can get the veteran horseplayers to go to the simulcast outlets or bet online, you can do what Del Mar and Saratoga do and try to deliver a more upscale experience at the track.

[AndyC]

Of course racing should do things for its existing fan base and for bettors and handicappers, but you shouldn't assume that serving that population is a precondition to obtaining new fans. Indeed, in many ways it can be antithetical.

Think of the Kentucky Derby. That's an AWFUL experience for a bettor and handicapper. Long lines, expensive admission, very hard to see the track and observe the races, no space to put your stuff or spread out and handicap, etc.

But it's a wonderful experience for many casual fans and, indeed, makes more money and draws more people than any other single card in American racing. Mint juleps, My Old Kentucky Home, beautiful women dressed to the nines and wearing distinctive hats, the roar of the crowds, celebrities and red carpets, etc.

The point is, the way to generate new fans, get young people, etc., is to deliver an entertainment experience. But that's NOT what existing bettors and handicappers want-- they want cheap admission, a place to spread out their stuff, and a good view of the track or the television screens. My experience with long-time horseplayers is that they tend to hate all the stuff that tracks do to bring in new customers. Certainly, a lot of people here hate Del Mar's approach to marketing the sport, given how they reacted when I defended it.

So I think in the long term you have to separate the two. A track that serves veteran horseplayers well is likely to be unattractive to the casual fan. But if you can get the veteran horseplayers to go to the simulcast outlets or bet online, you can do what Del Mar and Saratoga do and try to deliver a more upscale experience at the track.

What does it say about racing when the only way to attract new customers is to appeal to the entertainment factor? Make the game more appealing from the gambling standpoint and everything else will take care of itself.

[thaskalos]

What does it say about racing when the only way to attract new customers is to appeal to the entertainment factor? Make the game more appealing from the gambling standpoint and everything else will take care of itself.
It says that the racing industry is reluctant to embrace the fact that they are in the GAMBLING business. They'd rather pretend that they are just "putting on a show"...a la "Hollywood". :rolleyes:

[whodoyoulike]

I agree that it is too complicated for your casual fan. I've taken a number of people to the track and their attention span just doesn't take to it like numbers people like myself.

Keno is a very popular game because it takes little thought. I would try to introduce some kind of Keno wagers to the game that allow for even penny wagers if possible.

Maybe something like an inside/outside Exacta or Trifecta in which you get the 2 or 3 inside horses and 2 or 3 outside horses? Or you can bet a single number throughout the entire card WPS in a single bet?

Maybe something like "Beat The Favorite" in an Exacta in which the player gets the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th odds on favorites at post time?

Just throwing around some crazy ideas, but you have to make the wagering simpler. People want to go up to the window and say: "I want to bet #10 right here in this Keno booklet...".

I think a beginner who spreads their bets with dd, tri's, pk3, 4, 5 and 6's is making it complicated for themselves and probably should expect the outcomes of their wagers. The tracks should provide race seminars and helpful info i.e., pamphlets, etc., on how to make the various wagers.

Again, the key to bring in newcomers and the more experienced fans to the track is free popcorn. I like popcorn. And, who wouldn't like it for free? But, I'll admit a downside could be pigeons which gives a literal meaning to being shit on by track mgmt. But, if tracks really cared about their customers, they can rent falcons and/or hawks to control their population (the pigeons not customers).

[Stoleitbreezing]

It says that the racing industry is reluctant to embrace the fact that they are in the GAMBLING business. They'd rather pretend that they are just "putting on a show"...a la "Hollywood". :rolleyes:

They neglected to cater to the younger generation for decades and will continue to see the same narrative until they make bigger changes for a younger market. I'm 31 and probably going to be one of the youngest posters on PA which says a lot for how they advertise or lack there of.

Get HD signals for all tracks, lower take out, get functioning tvs in these OTBs, I've read many threads regarding the buttons are missing, or the tv won't work and can tell you i've see the same issue too AT MULTIPLE Locations. Someone from hometrack should be monitoring these sites and making sure they repair and replace broken things.

[thaskalos]

They neglected to cater to the younger generation for decades and will continue to see the same narrative until they make bigger changes for a younger market. I'm 31 and probably going to be one of the youngest posters on PA which says a lot for how they advertise or lack there of.

Get HD signals for all tracks, lower take out, get functioning tvs in these OTBs, I've read many threads regarding the buttons are missing, or the tv won't work and can tell you i've see the same issue too AT MULTIPLE Locations. Someone from hometrack should be monitoring these sites and making sure they repair and replace broken things.

At the OTB that I frequent...they don't even bother to put all the available tracks up on the screens for the patrons to see. The customers usually have to point this out to them, on an everyday basis. Lousy customer service all-the-way-around...and then they hit you with a surcharge for the pleasure of being there.

[Stoleitbreezing]

At the OTB that I frequent...they don't even bother to put all the available tracks up on the screens for the patrons to see. The customers usually have to point this out to them, on an everyday basis. Lousy customer service all-the-way-around...and then they hit you with a surcharge for the pleasure of being there.

I've had that experience as well. It seemed to me that the "programming" duties were given to a cashier instead of someone who manages the daily activities of the OTB. The cashier is less likely to notice when racing at portland is cancelled or if you want to play northfield. Customer service has been an afterthought for many years its just sad. I've never really seen a manager type person in my many years at the OTB, seems like they are only around when there are problems.

[thaskalos]

I've had that experience as well. It seemed to me that the "programming" duties were given to a cashier instead of someone who manages the daily activities of the OTB. The cashier is less likely to notice when racing at portland is cancelled or if you want to play northfield. Customer service has been an afterthought for many years its just sad. I've never really seen a manager type person in my many years at the OTB, seems like they are only around when there are problems.

We must be frequenting the same OTB.

[Track Phantom]

Attracting new blood to the game is important...but it isn't likely to happen at a time when the game can't even hold on to the loyal, long-time fans that it currently has. Confirmed horseplayers are fleeing this game in droves...and those who remain wager only a fraction of what they formerly wagered. I read this board regularly...and can recount many posters here testifying that they have drastically reduced their betting action...but I can't remember even a single case where a member of this site has declared that he is wagering the same or more now than he did in the past. When even horseplayers like us lose interest...then the game is in big trouble indeed.

In a gambling game where there is a need for considerable at-home preparation...there must be a financial upside to warrant the sizable investment in time and effort. These "serious" gambling games are ultimately judged by the level of success that their best players are able to attain...and horse racing has nothing to offer in this regard. There is no real proof that there are ANY "successful" horseplayers out there...and very few have ever seen one. How do you distinguish the "real thing" from the legend and the rumors?

A young American guy with a bankroll and a gambling interest can go to Youtube, and search for the lifestyles of any of poker's best players...and he will likely be very impressed by what he finds. Beautiful homes...nice cars...and all the other trappings of wealth that the top players of a gambling game are supposed to possess. And then he does a similar search on the lifestyles of horse racing's best players, and all he finds is a Russian miilionaire player who is allowed to play a game vastly dissimilar to the one offered in this country.

Young athletes need role models...and young gamblers do, as well. And in horse racing, in THIS country at least...there AREN'T any.

I agree with a lot of this. No question that the "at home preparation" is a loser in 99% of the population today. Most people that "gamble" want to put no brain power into it. Even poker is much more dumb downed than horse racing is. For the most part, poker requires a knowledge of the game and additional nuances but not a 2 year crash course like racing does. This is a BIG problem.

I know loads of people that might like a day or night out at the races but have no clue what to do when they get there. For them, it is intimidating and they do not come back. These people need at least a fighting chance when they walk in the door. If not, why would they return?

I believe the game has appeal even to the mainstream public. It hooked me, you and the others on this board and it can do so to many more if exposed to it properly. If steps aren't taken to do it properly, there will be smaller and smaller generations of people interested and the game will basically go away. (Maybe with the closing of HOL, AC, SUF and many other tracks recently, it already is starting to shut down).

In my opinion, cutting edge marketing and presentation is the key, at least as it pertains to getting people in the facility. Find out what things can be done to make the overall experience more enjoyable. Some of it might be costly (i.e. HD video or upgraded facilities) and some of it might not cost a nickle.

There are a lot of holes. Got to start plugging them.

[dilanesp]

What does it say about racing when the only way to attract new customers is to appeal to the entertainment factor? Make the game more appealing from the gambling standpoint and everything else will take care of itself.

No, it won't. For two reasons:

1. There's tons of competition for the gambling dollar, much more than there used to be.

2. You need people to come back time and time again, and gambling is very Darwinian and tends to drive people away when they lose all their money. You can mitigate this and stretch it out somewhat with takeout reductions, but it's a reality.

Whereas if you can entertain people and make a track a fun place to be, they do come back. A few tracks, including Del Mar and Saratoga, have experienced this positive feedback loop. Las Vegas has experienced it big-time, and the most profitable properties are the ones who deliver an amazing experience with shopping, entertainment, luxuries, and personal services, and charge plenty for that experience, rather than the dingy gambling halls that serve a cadre of regulars and advertise their low takeouts and cheap buffets.

[thaskalos]

I agree with a lot of this. No question that the "at home preparation" is a loser in 99% of the population today. Most people that "gamble" want to put no brain power into it. Even poker is much more dumb downed than horse racing is. For the most part, poker requires a knowledge of the game and additional nuances but not a 2 year crash course like racing does. This is a BIG problem.

I know loads of people that might like a day or night out at the races but have no clue what to do when they get there. For them, it is intimidating and they do not come back. These people need at least a fighting chance when they walk in the door. If not, why would they return?

I believe the game has appeal even to the mainstream public. It hooked me, you and the others on this board and it can do so to many more if exposed to it properly. If steps aren't taken to do it properly, there will be smaller and smaller generations of people interested and the game will basically go away. (Maybe with the closing of HOL, AC, SUF and many other tracks recently, it already is starting to shut down).

In my opinion, cutting edge marketing and presentation is the key, at least as it pertains to getting people in the facility. Find out what things can be done to make the overall experience more enjoyable. Some of it might be costly (i.e. HD video or upgraded facilities) and some of it might not cost a nickle.

There are a lot of holes. Got to start plugging them.

Yeah...but who's going to plug them? :)

[dilanesp]

It says that the racing industry is reluctant to embrace the fact that they are in the GAMBLING business. They'd rather pretend that they are just "putting on a show"...a la "Hollywood". :rolleyes:

Do you think Las Vegas would be as profitable as it is if they viewed themselves as in the gambling business rather than putting on a show a la Hollywood?

There's far more money long term in presenting entertainment than there is in offering gambling, and the amazing fact is that is true despite the fact that gambling operations have a guaranteed house advantage. But it is true nonetheless.

[thaskalos]

Do you think Las Vegas would be as profitable as it is if they viewed themselves as in the gambling business rather than putting on a show a la Hollywood?

There's far more money long term in presenting entertainment than there is in offering gambling, and the amazing fact is that is true despite the fact that gambling operations have a guaranteed house advantage. But it is true nonetheless.
It's as unfair to compare Las Vegas with a racetrack, as it is to compare the book "Win more, Lose less" with the book "Exotic Wagering formulas". In both cases...the latter pales in comparison to the former.

With the limited budget that horse racing has at its disposal...what "entertainment" do you suppose they are capable of putting on?

[Stillriledup]

I've read in a few posts here that one of the reasons new people can't be attracted is the difficulty and learning curve of the game. I've always asked here why can someone bet the lottery and just toss money away on random numbers but when it comes to racing, all of a sudden they need to "know something" to bet? Just bet numbers like you do in the lottery, you don't have to know anything to bet, its not a requirement.

Sure, if you want to take this game seriously and do work, you're certainly permitted to d that. If you want to bet bingo numbers, you can do that too.

Why the need to knowledge when it comes to horse race betting?

I like Dilan extra sensory perception's point about hard core players don't want the same things as the newbie....the hard core players don't love the "calendar giveaways" because it brings out the once a year idiots who clog up the food lines and SAM machines and just get in the way, hard core players are used to 3 people being in the track and having a run of the place.

My view is that instead of giving away a free mug on one day a year, why not just treat current customers like gold....that way, the current customers will always have no qualms about introducing new blood into the game. That old bettor was young once and they were one of the young ones who broke thru all the 'giveaway crap' to really want to get deep into the game by studying PPs and the like. Cater to THEM and word gets around.

Unfortunately word is getting around the other way...and those words are STAY AWAY.

I wouldn't bring my worst enemy to the races and try and to introduce them to this game and i'm sure i'm not the only person who feels this way.

[thaskalos]

I've read in a few posts here that one of the reasons new people can't be attracted is the difficulty and learning curve of the game. I've always asked here why can someone bet the lottery and just toss money away on random numbers but when it comes to racing, all of a sudden they need to "know something" to bet? Just bet numbers like you do in the lottery, you don't have to know anything to bet, its not a requirement.

Sure, if you want to take this game seriously and do work, you're certainly permitted to d that. If you want to bet bingo numbers, you can do that too.

Why the need to knowledge when it comes to horse race betting?

I like Dilan extra sensory perception's point about hard core players don't want the same things as the newbie....the hard core players don't love the "calendar giveaways" because it brings out the once a year idiots who clog up the food lines and SAM machines and just get in the way, hard core players are used to 3 people being in the track and having a run of the place.

My view is that instead of giving away a free mug on one day a year, why not just treat current customers like gold....that way, the current customers will always have no qualms about introducing new blood into the game. That old bettor was young once and they were one of the young ones who broke thru all the 'giveaway crap' to really want to get deep into the game by studying PPs and the like. Cater to THEM and word gets around.

Unfortunately word is getting around the other way...and those words are STAY AWAY.

I wouldn't bring my worst enemy to the races and try and to introduce them to this game and i'm sure i'm not the only person who feels this way.

We are all creatures of habit, SRU...and this also applies to the management of this game. The racing industry has gotten used to taking the hardcore player for granted...and changing old habits is difficult --- as we all know.

[Stillriledup]

We are all creatures of habit, SRU...and this also applies to the management of this game. The racing industry has gotten used to taking the hardcore player for granted...and changing old habits is difficult --- as we all know.

I think one of the biggest problems that core players face is that they are "over" the novelty of the horses running in the circle, they're there to gamble and win. They don't want to be paying admissions, parkings and high food costs to do what they could do for free in Vegas. They want to keep their 20 dollars to bet, not get soaked for 20 before they get into door.

Now, the person who comes once a year won't mind getting soaked for 20, because its just part of that day's entertainment and the 20 is actually 20. If you are an everyday player, the 20 turns into 100 a week...nobody can afford that or should WANT to afford that even if they technically can.

[thaskalos]

I think one of the biggest problems that core players face is that they are "over" the novelty of the horses running in the circle, they're there to gamble and win. They don't want to be paying admissions, parkings and high food costs to do what they could do for free in Vegas. They want to keep their 20 dollars to bet, not get soaked for 20 before they get into door.

Now, the person who comes once a year won't mind getting soaked for 20, because its just part of that day's entertainment and the 20 is actually 20. If you are an everyday player, the 20 turns into 100 a week...nobody can afford that or should WANT to afford that even if they technically can.
The truth is that the hardcore player was never mesmerized by the spectacle of horses running in a circle. He was always there for the profit potential that he perceived in the game...and, as things unfolded, he eventually decided that there was more potential for profit somewhere else. You can't blame him.

[Stillriledup]

The truth is that the hardcore player was never mesmerized by the spectacle of horses running in a circle. He was always there for the profit potential that he perceived in the game...and, as things unfolded, he eventually decided that there was more potential for profit somewhere else. You can't blame him.

No doubt, people who have been going for a long time, the novelty of the random horse running in the circle left them a LONG time ago....yet, the price to enter the track, purchase past performances, pay to park is there for the person who is paying for the novelty of the sporting event. Tracks charge for the privilege of watching the horses run in the circle, but most people could care less, they're not getting any enjoyment out of that part of the "sport" they're just there to try and win money, no difference between them and the person who walks into 7.11 and purchases a lottery ticket....7.11 doesn't charge that person to park or to enter.

Anyone who goes to a live racing venue will see an area of the track where people aren't watching the live product. They are huddled in masses in rooms with no windows just looking at television sets. Tracks might be surprised at how many people attend a live racetrack and never actually watch a live race....but the parking and admission is set up as if they will.

[Poindexter]

No, it won't. For two reasons:

1. There's tons of competition for the gambling dollar, much more than there used to be.

2. You need people to come back time and time again, and gambling is very Darwinian and tends to drive people away when they lose all their money. You can mitigate this and stretch it out somewhat with takeout reductions, but it's a reality.

Whereas if you can entertain people and make a track a fun place to be, they do come back. A few tracks, including Del Mar and Saratoga, have experienced this positive feedback loop. Las Vegas has experienced it big-time, and the most profitable properties are the ones who deliver an amazing experience with shopping, entertainment, luxuries, and personal services, and charge plenty for that experience, rather than the dingy gambling halls that serve a cadre of regulars and advertise their low takeouts and cheap buffets.

The only reason racing has competition is that it chooses to compete rather than put itself at the head of the class. There is nothing per se entertaining about watching horses run around in circles unless the person watching has a personal investment in the outcome(emotionally as a owner/fan or financially through a bet). What could put horse racing in the forefront of the gambling world is that it is beatable. If the only forms of gambling that are beatable are Horses, Poker, sports betting/fantasy sports (I will exclude Blackjack), for the most part, than that is the competition. As mentioned previously in this thread, it is a lot to ask someone to go through all the work of fully handicapping a card, just to have a fighting chance of winning for the day but virtually no chance of winning long term. . I personally enjoy capping, but I think most consider it a lot of work and tedious and if the results are going to be that you lose at a faster and higher rate than you lose at your local casino, how long before you decide it is not worth the effort. Racing's customer is not the zombie who is tossing quarters in the slot machine for 5 hours straight. Racing has no appeal to that person. The person who would embrace racing is the person who likes to analyze data/stats and use his brain to establish an edge and capitalize on that edge(a lot of investors would probably become interested in racing if there was an upside). Of course in this day and age when people can do the same thing with sports betting and poker and fantasy sports...at a much cheaper price, why would they have any motivation to embrace racing unless they are already love with the game or have already acquired the enormous skill level to beat this game. Until racing realizes this on a broad scale(not limit the perks to a few) the results will be the same.

All this other stuff makes for nice discussion and hopefully the racetracks will make positive steps in all areas, but as long as they choose to feel that the average horseplayer does not deserve a reasonable chance to win there just will not be very many average horseplayers.

[thaskalos]

The only reason horse racing is losing out to its "competition" is because customers are dissatisfied with its product.

[Stillriledup]

The "process" of new fans being introduced to the game usually happens when an established fan brings a new fan to the track and shows them the ropes. Answers questions about what's going on, how to bet, how to look at the PPs and the like.

The funny part of all this is that if a person sees a tv commercial for his local track and decides that he or she wants to go to the races and learn a bit about it, there's nobody at the track to ask. How do you go about "learning the product" if you don't actually know an established racing fan? Who do you ask?

[AndyC]

No, it won't. For two reasons:

1. There's tons of competition for the gambling dollar, much more than there used to be.

2. You need people to come back time and time again, and gambling is very Darwinian and tends to drive people away when they lose all their money. You can mitigate this and stretch it out somewhat with takeout reductions, but it's a reality.

Whereas if you can entertain people and make a track a fun place to be, they do come back. A few tracks, including Del Mar and Saratoga, have experienced this positive feedback loop. Las Vegas has experienced it big-time, and the most profitable properties are the ones who deliver an amazing experience with shopping, entertainment, luxuries, and personal services, and charge plenty for that experience, rather than the dingy gambling halls that serve a cadre of regulars and advertise their low takeouts and cheap buffets.

Yes there is a ton of competition for the gambling dollar and the racetracks are losing. Why? Because they have an overpriced product that is slow-paced for the participants.

A good track experience is nice but 90% of the handle comes from off-track. The 90% aren't looking for a free hat or to hear the latest hip-hop group after the last race. They want competitive bettable races.

[AndyC]

The "process" of new fans being introduced to the game usually happens when an established fan brings a new fan to the track and shows them the ropes. Answers questions about what's going on, how to bet, how to look at the PPs and the like.

The funny part of all this is that if a person sees a tv commercial for his local track and decides that he or she wants to go to the races and learn a bit about it, there's nobody at the track to ask. How do you go about "learning the product" if you don't actually know an established racing fan? Who do you ask?

Who did you ask? Many tracks have people who are there to show people the basics of the game. Most people simply don't want to put the time in to become proficient as a player. The draw is simply not big enough.

[Stillriledup]

Who did you ask? Many tracks have people who are there to show people the basics of the game. Most people simply don't want to put the time in to become proficient as a player. The draw is simply not big enough.

There's nobody at any track that knows anything, if you showed up there as a first time customer, by yourself, you would probably have to ask a handful of people before you even got close to know who really knew anything. Do you ask the woman selling the programs at the gate? The security guard? The woman selling 4.50 coffee? There's no way any of them would know who you could ask and its a certainty that none of them would know a single thing about the horse racing product and the handicapping process.

[Robert Fischer]

Broadcast the game on TV and Internet.

Have wagering on those broadcasts.

the stuff we have that broadcasts either SUCKS (tvg etc...)

or COMICALLY! STUPIDLY requires extra effort or money to obtain (tvg etc..)

or COMICALLY! STUPIDLY requires extra effort or money to BET! (nbc, espn, etc..)


We should see horseracing on a free TV channel and webcast, several times a week and they should be harrasing us , tempting us and selling us to BET!

We should have ads on the fences silks and horses if need be for SPONSORS DUMMY.

We should pay people to stand and scream in a little section in front of the camera and then tell the camera and post social media stuff if we have to pay them to freaking do so.

MEDIA PSYCHOLOGY COMMON SENSE

the rest is silly. This post is silly. This thread isn't about making a difference it's about a chance for us to complain to each other in our small community and feel entertained.

and on-track preferential rebates?? are you serious?? You are really going to make whales "send a guy" and go through the extra trouble of sending a guy to the track to take even a bigger slice of the pie??

[Robert Goren]

98% of the people who go the track go there to make money. It is same reason people go the casinos. Stop making it hard for them. Free Parking and free admission are a must. Cheap PPs and cheap food are a must. Keep the place looking nice even if the customers look like er ..race track bums. Keep everything as simple as possible and as cheap as possible. People are not going to come more than once if they are $40 in the hole before they start. Hire very friendly people. There is a reason people go to a Starbucks stand alone shop in a strip mall and pay high prices.( Warning: stand alone shops are different than ones in Target, Barnes and Noble, etc.) That reason is the employees treat you like they like you instead of a nuisance. Sometime I think there are too many races to bet and I get confused. Cut down on the number of tracks you have betting on besides your own. They can run from 11am to midnight, keep it down to 2 or 3 tracks at same time is a good idea especially if they are running a live card. Give the bettors more space if they inside. Tables are a must. I hate those long tables with a line chairs before a big screen. From a screen at your table you should be able access odds, pools, Exacta payouts and DD payouts plus earlier in the day results for all tracks carried. Security, You should be able leave your stuff without some body running off with it. This stuff is for everybody. If you want to set aside a place for bigger bettors or people who are willing to pay to sit away from the masses, they have offer them even more. Their own betting terminal would be nice. Free Soda, lattes etc deliver to their table. A little extra.

[Stillriledup]

98% of the people who go the track go there to make money. It is same reason people go the casinos. Stop making it hard for them. Free Parking and free admission are a must. Cheap PPs and cheap food are a must. Keep the place looking nice even if the customers look like er ..race track bums. Keep everything as simple as possible and as cheap as possible. People are not going to come more than once if they are $40 in the hole before they start. Hire very friendly people. There is a reason people go to a Starbucks stand alone shop in a strip mall and pay high prices.( Warning: stand alone shops are different than ones in Target, Barnes and Noble, etc.) That reason is the employees treat you like they like you instead of a nuisance. Sometime I think there are too many races to bet and I get confused. Cut down on the number of tracks you have betting on besides your own. They can run from 11am to midnight, keep it down to 2 or 3 tracks at same time is a good idea especially if they are running a live card. Give the bettors more space if they inside. Tables are a must. I hate those long tables with a line chairs before a big screen. From a screen at your table you should be able access odds, pools, Exacta payouts and DD payouts plus earlier in the day results for all tracks carried. Security, You should be able leave your stuff without some body running off with it. This stuff is for everybody. If you want to set aside a place for bigger bettors or people who are willing to pay to sit away from the masses, they have offer them even more. Their own betting terminal would be nice. Free Soda, lattes etc deliver to their table. A little extra.

The reason this doesn't happen is because the track expects the customer to foot the bill to the participants to put on the show. People can make an NFL bet in Vegas and 0 cents of that bet goes to the NFL to "put on the show". People dont want to pay to put on the show. Racing industry wants to "put on the show" that's on them.

[Robert Goren]

The reason this doesn't happen is because the track expects the customer to foot the bill to the participants to put on the show. People can make an NFL bet in Vegas and 0 cents of that bet goes to the NFL to "put on the show". People dont want to pay to put on the show. Racing industry wants to "put on the show" that's on them.Don't get me started on the horsemen again!

[AndyC]

The reason this doesn't happen is because the track expects the customer to foot the bill to the participants to put on the show. People can make an NFL bet in Vegas and 0 cents of that bet goes to the NFL to "put on the show". People dont want to pay to put on the show. Racing industry wants to "put on the show" that's on them.

That's a ridiculous argument. The people paying for the show in the NFL are the TV networks. To say that the tracks should put on the show would indicate that they have another source of revenue other than the betting dollar. They don't.

[MJC922]

I would start with integrity, drug-free and an overall sense the races are fairly run contests, this (to an outside observer) means a lot. People aren't going to invest effort into learning about a game when they and their peers strongly suspect the game is fundamentally dishonest.

The other thing is lifestyle, a lot of people lead busy work / family lives but would like a way to get their action when they have the time for it. It means just sitting down at the PC at any time of day to handicap, much of the relevant information should be readily available to make INFORMED decisions, particularly visual info like replays etc. Right now you go to the HKJC site and without registering or anything it's all there. Go to Equibase and try the same, is it just that easy? Go to Twinspires after 9pm and try to look at / bet on tomorrow's races, forget it. So people need a way to look for investments which fits tightly into their schedule otherwise you'll only get them only on weekends - if you're lucky.

The follow-up to above is the thrill of the race, I've worked all day and I come home, eat dinner, I have 20 minutes, I'd like an easy way to see all of my bets that I placed either the night before or the morning of, with the replays all cued up and ready. At that point I want stealth mode, I don't want to login someplace and see my current balance, I want to experience a quick day at the track. The track will never be able to race when it's convenient for most people, it has to find a way to present the results while keeping the thrill intact. Maybe this is easy enough with the current offerings, I haven't found it to be so.

[elhelmete]

That's a ridiculous argument. The people paying for the show in the NFL are the TV networks. To say that the tracks should put on the show would indicate that they have another source of revenue other than the betting dollar. They don't.

Yup.

Anyone want to guess what your cable bill would be if pro sports wasn't televised?

[Stillriledup]

That's a ridiculous argument. The people paying for the show in the NFL are the TV networks. To say that the tracks should put on the show would indicate that they have another source of revenue other than the betting dollar. They don't.

That's not the point. The point is that i don't care and neither do most people. Consumers are just looking at the bottom line, they could care less who puts on the show, as long as its not them.

[AndyC]

That's not the point. The point is that i don't care and neither do most people. Consumers are just looking at the bottom line, they could care less who puts on the show, as long as its not them.

Consumers always put on the show. Race tracks aren't in business to provide free entertainment.

Have you paid for tickets to any sporting events or concerts lately? Who do you think is paying for the show?

[Robert Fischer]

Consumers always put on the show. Race tracks aren't in business to provide free entertainment.

Have you paid for tickets to any sporting events or concerts lately? Who do you think is paying for the show?
They are IMPORTANT points though.

racing will never be the NFL..


butt the points are IMPORTANT enough to ask why Racing doesn't use the mass media.

It's no secret that the TV is a great tool for business.

People are transformed into sheep when subject to the TV broadcast. Same goes for the internet and the mobile devices.
These things are so important that banks and corporations and governments would give us free TVs if they had to. They beg us to watch. They hire the geniuses of our time to think of smart ways to get the most out of it.

Yet racing doesn't use the TV at all.

Yeah yeah, we have the Derby on TV, but when the Derby is on TV we do this weird fake dance where we PRETEND that there is No Wagering. :confused:

And then the other times we have racing on TV for smaller races - we do this weird business model where the racing channel expects the money to come from customers who pay Extra to get their broadcast package.
Rather than begging, giving and practically forcing people to watch, these fools make people pay extra to watch. Someone really decided this was a good business model. :confused:

Racing will never be the NBA

butt not that long ago, the NBA was run by knuckleheads who didn't understand the media. They used to show playoff games on tape-delay replay.
Now their is so much BS spewing forth from all media orifices - because the guys who run the NBA now, are enlightened men.


Racing will never be Poker

butt Several years ago Poker's popularity exploded.
BECAUSE the game was broadcast on TV.
You had it on the stupid travel channel. That was a channel where you couldn't sleep and you were flipping through useless channels because you were half-insane, and you chose poker over some info-mercial for a juicer or diet plan or whatever low-quality worse-than-horseracing-or-poker thing.
So Espn copied it next because it got too big for the travel channel.
And the people involved with poker were not complete morons. Perhaps we should credit them for putting it on the Travel channel and building it, perhaps we should say it was pure luck, but regardless they had the common sense to sell online poker to people through those shows, as well as lots and lots of sponsors (to pay to put on the show).

Horse racing is like poker, except you can frickin play LIVE INTERFRICKITERACTIVE ALONG WITH THE FRICKIN SHOW. :mad::mad:
<SNIP>

You can sign up (you don't want to be left out? Do you??)
you can sign the F'UP! and that gives you the opportunity to play-along and to participate in the SOCIAL media experience on that LIVE PRIME TIME SHOW. Maybe if you are really frickin lucky Mike Beer will answer your @t twitter tweet, on the live show, and you will be made to feel SPECIAL.

What a high! Gambling on a great sport, and you are a part of the social media thing, and it's on your TV! or smart phone or computer. And since it's so popular at night in prime time, and adequately exploited by sponsors and has huge pools, running for high stakes, they have these really high quality races with the best horses from the Region!
And they have a smart geek like Serling, and they have a used car Salesman next to him telling us that the horse who we just saw run that 110 Beyer is GOD'S GIFT TO HORSEYS!


Almost better than sex. Not the NFL or NBA, but it's a player.


SO you have to ask why don't we have this??

There are only 2 possibly reasons
1. Horse Racing is incredibly stupid
2. There are draconian rules that we don't see as bystanders that are preventing Horse Racing from capitalizing.

[eqitec]

Everywhere I turn, I find that commercial entities which want to bring more customers through their portals, are blanketing their marketplaces with FREE training for existing and potential new customers, whether their businesses are brick and mortar, or on-line.

Just in our local papers, I've seen free classes in various vertical markets, on topics such as the ones below, held or sponsored on a regular basis, usually directly on-site where their businesses are conducted, or on-line, or both:

Food chains on how to cook.
Fabric and crafts chains on how to sew.
Financial services firms on how to invest.
Auto insurance firms on how to drive safely.
Health care providers on how to stay well.
Funeral directors on how to plan for death.
Spas on how to relax.
Software developers on how to use their programs.
Travel agencies on where to go.
Universities/colleges on how to choose one.
Camera shops on how to take pictures and videos.
Home improvement chains on how to "build it yourself."

Need I go on?

By contrast, what is being done by racetracks that approximates what's being done in other marketplaces?

[proximity]

signal fees. states. horsemen. contracts. red tape. the list goes on. and on and on.

point?? you just can't suddenly lower takeout. at least not without consequences and certainly not to levels that would make a discernible difference.

significant on track rebates would be much easier to implement than any takeout reduction and would simultaneously provide tangible benefits to the average customer with a player's card.

the "rebate" can't be 0.6% though. in fact it can't be in the single digits. eyebrows need to be raised. :eek: a lot of tracks are getting significant slots subsidies and still have takeouts of 18-30% on most bets. ten percent would be a good number for the rebate.

[Stillriledup]

signal fees. states. horsemen. contracts. red tape. the list goes on. and on and on.

point?? you just can't suddenly lower takeout. at least not without consequences and certainly not to levels that would make a discernible difference.

significant on track rebates would be much easier to implement than any takeout reduction and would simultaneously provide tangible benefits to the average customer with a player's card.

the "rebate" can't be 0.6% though. in fact it can't be in the single digits. eyebrows need to be raised. :eek: a lot of tracks are getting significant slots subsidies and still have takeouts of 18-30% on most bets. ten percent would be a good number for the rebate.

All the slots money goes to the trainers, owners and jocks. Helps keep them in new Mercedeses, new townhomes on Manhattan Beach and fancy steak dinners.

[Track Phantom]

I appreciate all of the responses in this thread. Some invaluable insight. In addition to gathering information here, I also solicited feedback elsewhere and had an amazing response rate. So many people are passionate about this question and have excellent ideas. It seemed that many are looking for the forum to pass along their ideas.

It got me thinking: Have any of you ever been asked by anyone in the racing industry for your ideas as it pertains to improving the game in any way?

I have been to a racetrack more times than I can count, handicapped and wagered on tens of thousands of races, followed the sport almost daily since 1986 and I've never been asked even ONCE for my opinion. I'm sure there are many others out there like me. I think that is the most shameful thing about this.

[CosmicWon]

I work in racing and one of the reasons I ever visited this site in the first place was to gain more insight into players' racing consumption when working on my thesis. So even though I didn't necessarily ask your opinion, I did get it through this type of crowdsourcing and that's a start.

Have you ever tried sending an email to ABR, Jockey Club, TOBA, Breeders' Cup etc to see what kind of response they give to your recommendations?

Never forget that handle is a proxy for the demand for a racing product and clearly that consumption is waning nationwide. Boggles my mind how McKinsey didn't even consider (much less present) any changes to the breeding side of the industry--you know, the industry segment where Jockey Club actually has power to affect change.

Likewise, the fact that it didn't even consider breeding/sales/book size etc makes me dubious of any of the McKinsey recommendations because clearly it lacks the insight or even back knowledge of the Thoroughbred industry to understand how much that tail wags the racing dog.

Someone though was clearly listening to players wanting more exotics linking together stakes nationwide, hence the new GP-SA P4 on Donn Day. Baby steps I guess but rest assured you're not in a communication vacuum and some industry people like me do care how gamblers are treated.

[Stillriledup]

Consumers always put on the show. Race tracks aren't in business to provide free entertainment.

Have you paid for tickets to any sporting events or concerts lately? Who do you think is paying for the show?

I'm just talking about sports bets vs horse bets. The horse racing industry wants to market themselves as a "sport" but the NFL doesn't ask the gamblers to pay the salaries of the participants. Sports bettors aren't paying a blended 20% to make a wager. Most people just care about value, bang for the buck and the like, they're not interested in who pays who. Also, as far as race tracks providing "entertainment" people are not interested in paying for the entertainment part of horse racing..they are not interested in being entertained, there's plenty of ways to entertain themselves for free or a much cheaper price....watching a random horse run in a circle, something that they've seen thousands if not tens of thousands of times isn't something that people want to pay for at this juncture.

If a person wants to see a horse race, they can hit up youtube for free and watch the most exciting races they can find....no need to pay 20% to see a much worse race when you can see a much more exciting race for free on the internet. Also, if it wasn't for the announcer, you wouldn't know one race from another...you wouldn't know if it was zenyatta in the breeders cup charging on the outside or a 5k claimer at Suffolk sloshing across the wire in 117 for 6 furlongs. its just misc horses running in a circle, people dont want to be "entertained" in that way, just give them cheaper bets, people are there for one reason, to try and win money.

[castaway01]

I'm just talking about sports bets vs horse bets. The horse racing industry wants to market themselves as a "sport" but the NFL doesn't ask the gamblers to pay the salaries of the participants. Sports bettors aren't paying a blended 20% to make a wager. Most people just care about value, bang for the buck and the like, they're not interested in who pays who. Also, as far as race tracks providing "entertainment" people are not interested in paying for the entertainment part of horse racing..they are not interested in being entertained, there's plenty of ways to entertain themselves for free or a much cheaper price....watching a random horse run in a circle, something that they've seen thousands if not tens of thousands of times isn't something that people want to pay for at this juncture.

If a person wants to see a horse race, they can hit up youtube for free and watch the most exciting races they can find....no need to pay 20% to see a much worse race when you can see a much more exciting race for free on the internet. Also, if it wasn't for the announcer, you wouldn't know one race from another...you wouldn't know if it was zenyatta in the breeders cup charging on the outside or a 5k claimer at Suffolk sloshing across the wire in 117 for 6 furlongs. its just misc horses running in a circle, people dont want to be "entertained" in that way, just give them cheaper bets, people are there for one reason, to try and win money.

That's because the NFL is already being paid billions of dollars---that's billions with a "b"---by television networks to pay the salaries of its participants. The rest of what you wrote is useless drivel when you ignore that key distinction. You're comparing a top-dollar steakhouse with two kids selling lemonade on a corner and asking why the kids don't run their business the same way. If your response is, as it seems to be, "Well I don't care I want it my way" then you're arguing at the level of a 3-year-old.

[AndyC]

I'm just talking about sports bets vs horse bets. The horse racing industry wants to market themselves as a "sport" but the NFL doesn't ask the gamblers to pay the salaries of the participants. Sports bettors aren't paying a blended 20% to make a wager. Most people just care about value, bang for the buck and the like, they're not interested in who pays who. Also, as far as race tracks providing "entertainment" people are not interested in paying for the entertainment part of horse racing..they are not interested in being entertained, there's plenty of ways to entertain themselves for free or a much cheaper price....watching a random horse run in a circle, something that they've seen thousands if not tens of thousands of times isn't something that people want to pay for at this juncture.

If a person wants to see a horse race, they can hit up youtube for free and watch the most exciting races they can find....no need to pay 20% to see a much worse race when you can see a much more exciting race for free on the internet. Also, if it wasn't for the announcer, you wouldn't know one race from another...you wouldn't know if it was zenyatta in the breeders cup charging on the outside or a 5k claimer at Suffolk sloshing across the wire in 117 for 6 furlongs. its just misc horses running in a circle, people dont want to be "entertained" in that way, just give them cheaper bets, people are there for one reason, to try and win money.

I am missing your point. Gamblers always pay to participate. Las Vegas wasn't built because of charitable donations. Racing cannot generate enough revenue to support the necessary infrastructure. Nobody is getting rich in the racing business. Making bets cheaper for the player is certainly great for the player but it won't pay the bills for the people who put on the races.

Outside of the triple crown races or the Breeder's Cup I don't find watching races, that I am not betting, the least bit entertaining.

[AndyC]

It got me thinking: Have any of you ever been asked by anyone in the racing industry for your ideas as it pertains to improving the game in any way?

Yes. I was a member of the NTRA Player's Panel where we spent much time and energy putting together a package of worthwhile recommendations which have been summarily ignored.

[ReplayRandall]

Yes. I was a member of the NTRA Player's Panel where we spent much time and energy putting together a package of worthwhile recommendations which have been summarily ignored.


Now I know who you are......I won't mention your last name, but you're a CPA from California, and these were some of the ideas presented:

Recommendations:

1. Reduce the final two cycles of data processing and odds changes to 10-15 seconds.

2. Totes should “force cycle” the win pool every 10 seconds after the pools close to update the final odds as quickly as possible and prevent delays from individual sites.

3. Eliminate the cancellation times at all tracks (hosts) and simulcast sites (guests).

4. Transmit the win-wagers from the hubs to the hosts prior to the aggregation and transmission of other pari-mutuel pools at the hubs.

5. Transmit the exacta-wager pools in priority to the other exotic pools, provided the transmission does not delay the calculation, transmission and posting of the win odds.

6. Post the odds-changes to the closed-circuit broadcasting system (i.e. simulcast signal) prior to posting the odds changes on the tote boards.

7. Post the final two cycles of wagering data at the host tracks and on the host tracks’ Web sites.

8. Require the totes to post reports of cancelled wagers during the final three cycles of wagering, including amounts, wagering sites and window numbers.

9. Inform the bettors as to how their wagers are being processed from the guests to the hubs to the hosts.

10. Do not merge simulcast pools at the host tracks more than 30 seconds after the off-time of any race

[Stillriledup]

That's because the NFL is already being paid billions of dollars---that's billions with a "b"---by television networks to pay the salaries of its participants. The rest of what you wrote is useless drivel when you ignore that key distinction. You're comparing a top-dollar steakhouse with two kids selling lemonade on a corner and asking why the kids don't run their business the same way. If your response is, as it seems to be, "Well I don't care I want it my way" then you're arguing at the level of a 3-year-old.

I'm not disputing any of that, i'm just saying that people dont care, all they're looking for is a good bet, sports bets offer 5% takeout, horse racing its 20%.

I don't care and i don't care i want it my way are two different things. Adding the "i want it my way" part is not something i've suggested.....any consumer has the ability to look at the takeout rates. If sports bets are charging 5% and horse racing is charging 20%, people can look at the numbers, do the math, and determine if paying 4X more in takeout is something they would be willing to do with their money.....how those numbers came to be is not something that matters all that much, the numbers are what the numbers are, how they got to 5% and 20% doesn't mean a heck of a lot to most people.

[Stillriledup]

I am missing your point. Gamblers always pay to participate. Las Vegas wasn't built because of charitable donations. Racing cannot generate enough revenue to support the necessary infrastructure. Nobody is getting rich in the racing business. Making bets cheaper for the player is certainly great for the player but it won't pay the bills for the people who put on the races.

Outside of the triple crown races or the Breeder's Cup I don't find watching races, that I am not betting, the least bit entertaining.

My point is that people don't care who pays the bills, all they are looking at is the takeout rate and making a determination if they want to pay it or not.

[Track Phantom]

Now I know who you are......I won't mention your last name, but you're a CPA from California, and these were some of the ideas presented:

Recommendations:

1. Reduce the final two cycles of data processing and odds changes to 10-15 seconds.

2. Totes should “force cycle” the win pool every 10 seconds after the pools close to update the final odds as quickly as possible and prevent delays from individual sites.

3. Eliminate the cancellation times at all tracks (hosts) and simulcast sites (guests).

4. Transmit the win-wagers from the hubs to the hosts prior to the aggregation and transmission of other pari-mutuel pools at the hubs.

5. Transmit the exacta-wager pools in priority to the other exotic pools, provided the transmission does not delay the calculation, transmission and posting of the win odds.

6. Post the odds-changes to the closed-circuit broadcasting system (i.e. simulcast signal) prior to posting the odds changes on the tote boards.

7. Post the final two cycles of wagering data at the host tracks and on the host tracks’ Web sites.

8. Require the totes to post reports of cancelled wagers during the final three cycles of wagering, including amounts, wagering sites and window numbers.

9. Inform the bettors as to how their wagers are being processed from the guests to the hubs to the hosts.

10. Do not merge simulcast pools at the host tracks more than 30 seconds after the off-time of any race

Is this a joke? If this is what was discussed, in total, wow!

[ReplayRandall]

Is this a joke? If this is what was discussed, in total, wow!

My bad Valento, I just listed Section A- Integrity of the Pari-mutuel Pools/Late Mergers......here's the complete list:

http://www.horse-races.net/library/article-ntrapanel.htm

[AndyC]

Is this a joke? If this is what was discussed, in total, wow!

You listed category "A" suggestions. There were categories "A" through "H" showing recommendations along with the analysis and discussion.

It certainly wasn't a joke. To a person, the participants were fully engaged in the process.

[ReplayRandall]

You listed category "A" suggestions. There were categories "A" through "H" showing recommendations along with the analysis and discussion.

It certainly wasn't a joke. To a person, the participants were fully engaged in the process.

Andy, see post #90........my bad.