Aqu cancels after R2 - more breakdowns

[RXB]

One horse snapped and went down on the turn in R2; don't know how the rider is. Another horse was also injured in the race but stayed up; don't know about its long-term prognosis.

This was only the 20th card of the meet yet already 11 racing fatalities, possibly 12 depending on the condition of the second injured horse. Not that I'm a big inner track player anyway, but I refuse to give any further attention/handle to that place until this BS comes to an end. Unacceptable.

[cutchemist42]

Mike Hünt
‏@TheRaiderFan
Last summer everyone was up in arms about the Del Mar Turf Course, three times as many horses have died at Aqueduct this winter and nothing

[PaceAdvantage]

Mike Hünt
‏@TheRaiderFan
Last summer everyone was up in arms about the Del Mar Turf Course, three times as many horses have died at Aqueduct this winter and nothingWhat does everybody want?

Here's the bottom line. If you want to eliminate racing related fatalities and injuries, shut down the sport.

It happens EVERYWHERE...no matter the season, no matter the temperature, no matter the condition of the track.

And it happens in CLUSTERS, again, often times unrelated to ANYTHING except random bad luck and statistics.

That's the cold hard FACT of this game. Take it or leave it.

[pandy]

I could be wrong, prior to last winter, I always thought that the inner track was one of the safest tracks and handled any kind of cold weather well. Now they have a problem. I wonder if they changed track superintendents in the past couple of years.

[PaceAdvantage]

I could be wrong, prior to last winter, I always thought that the inner track was one of the safest tracks and handled any kind of cold weather well. Now they have a problem. I wonder if they changed track superintendents in the past couple of years.I'll chalk it up to short sample statistical anomaly and leave it at that...until someone presents a compelling reason otherwise.

[PaceAdvantage]

Mike Hünt
‏@TheRaiderFan
Last summer everyone was up in arms about the Del Mar Turf Course, three times as many horses have died at Aqueduct this winter and nothingBTW, nice user name you quoted there...props to that...

Mike Hunt...with the umlaut no less...


Priceless.

[deathandgravity]

What the hell?
Only got refunded 1/2 my P4 ticket.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

What the hell?
Only got refunded 1/2 my P4 ticket.

i got partial refunds and partial payouts also, its the fair thing to do. split it amongst anyone still alive in the pools.

also, its small potatoes. 2 owners lost a horse today. They can't be refunded 1/2 a horse.

i don't fault NYRA for running today, its warmer than yesterday. In reality i applaud them for responding quick to what they thought was a dangerous situation.

[cutchemist42]

David Grening
‏@DRFGrening
A combination of jockey's concerns with the track (some ice) and the wind gusts prompted today's cancellation

Is it normal for the Aqu inner to have ice in it?

[Clocker]

I could be wrong, prior to last winter, I always thought that the inner track was one of the safest tracks and handled any kind of cold weather well. Now they have a problem. I wonder if they changed track superintendents in the past couple of years.

It seems like it was an unusually wet and warm November, and then it got unusually cold in a hurry. I wonder if the track got a really deep soak and then froze up before it could dry out.

Add to that the stables probably aren't running their top stock either.

[PaceAdvantage]

David Grening
‏@DRFGrening
A combination of jockey's concerns with the track (some ice) and the wind gusts prompted today's cancellation

Is it normal for the Aqu inner to have ice in it?Yes, but in that case, they usually require all runners to be wearing the special inner-track "Skate Shoes"

[Clocker]

Yes, but in that case, they usually require all runners to be wearing the special inner-track "Skate Shoes"

I thought I saw a Zamboni on the back stretch between races. That explains it.

[bello]

How about the jocks....You want to get on an unsafe track in their place.

Your comments are ridiculous. Of course there are times track conditions are simply unsafe to ride.

[cj]

Italian Rules injury in not expected to be life threatening. (from NYRA)

[wiffleball whizz]

BTW, nice user name you quoted there...props to that...

Mike Hunt...with the umlaut no less...


Priceless.

Just learned what a umlaut is.....learned something on this cold wintry day!!!

[Stillriledup]

BTW, nice user name you quoted there...props to that...

Mike Hunt...with the umlaut no less...


Priceless.

When i clicked on this thread, i never thought i would see Mike Hunt and Umlaut used in the same sentence. Separate maybe, but not together. :D

I'm with Whizz, thank you for the Umlaut lesson. ;)

[wisconsin]

I'll chalk it up to short sample statistical anomaly and leave it at that...until someone presents a compelling reason otherwise.


I will add that it's not always the track. Some horses are simply a step away from a breakdown, and there often is NO way to foresee that.

You can blame a track or a race, but horses that are going to break down are going to do so no matter where they run next.

[Stillriledup]

David Grening
‏@DRFGrening
A combination of jockey's concerns with the track (some ice) and the wind gusts prompted today's cancellation

Is it normal for the Aqu inner to have ice in it?

I'd be wondering if there were no concerns after Race 1, did the track suddenly change for race 2?

If the track had ice in it, why not cancel after race 1?

[cutchemist42]

I'd be wondering if there were no concerns after Race 1, did the track suddenly change for race 2?

If the track had ice in it, why not cancel after race 1?

Don't know, depends how many jockeys maybe relayed info back, a goggle was smashed from frozen kickback, but not sure how normal that is either for Aqu Inner.

[horses4courses]

Mike Hünt
‏@TheRaiderFan
Last summer everyone was up in arms about the Del Mar Turf Course, three times as many horses have died at Aqueduct this winter and nothing

Nobody wants tragedies, and it's not like they happen all the time.
However, certain people seem to love pointing out the deficiencies
of west coast racing.

[Stillriledup]

Don't know, depends how many jockeys maybe relayed info back, a goggle was smashed from frozen kickback, but not sure how normal that is either for Aqu Inner.

The one thing we know about the NY jockeys is that they are the hardiest bunch around....it takes them more to cancel than say, the Laurel jockey colony or the Penn National jockey colony or even the Charles Town jockey colony, so when THEY cancel, you know it must have been something really bad as they usually ride no matter what (kinda like postal workers) while these other tracks seem to cancel at the drop of a hat, you know, a little cold and they are cancelling..but not these guys, so when they DO cancel, you know, its kind of legit, that's probably why they waited until after the 2nd race to cancel, didn't want to make a snap judgment after one race.

[JustRalph]

Just learned what a umlaut is.....learned something on this cold wintry day!!!

I thought it was an eskimo

[therussmeister]

The one thing we know about the NY jockeys is that they are the hardiest bunch around....it takes them more to cancel than say, the Laurel jockey colony or the Penn National jockey colony or even the Charles Town jockey colony, so when THEY cancel, you know it must have been something really bad as they usually ride no matter what (kinda like postal workers) while these other tracks seem to cancel at the drop of a hat, you know, a little cold and they are cancelling..but not these guys, so when they DO cancel, you know, its kind of legit, that's probably why they waited until after the 2nd race to cancel, didn't want to make a snap judgment after one race.
I believe the Mahoning Valley jockeys are hardier, but maybe they are just poorer.

[PaceAdvantage]

How about the jocks....You want to get on an unsafe track in their place.

Your comments are ridiculous. Of course there are times track conditions are simply unsafe to ride.My comments are ridiculous?

Ok Mr. Urine. I mean, Mr. Genting... :lol:

The jocks are free to not ride...has happened many times when they considered conditions unsafe.

[Stillriledup]

I believe the Mahoning Valley jockeys are hardier, but maybe they are just poorer.

Interesting. I guess if you really need the money, you find a way to ride. The track becomes "less slippery" when you're not sure how you're going to pay your rent next month.

[VeryOldMan]

To get back on topic a bit - I just looked at the full chart for Race 2 and the comments actually include "euthanized" for Apex. "broke down, euthanized"

I don't recall seeing it said quite so expressly - but I don't look at as many charts as others here. Is this new, have I missed it being used in the past, or was this one so bad it was the only possible way to describe it?

Saw a friend's horse euthanized on the track and the chart said something like "took a bad step at 3/8th pole; vanned off". I'm all in favor of the truth, so I'm not complaining about it - just hadn't seen it before.

[cj]

To get back on topic a bit - I just looked at the full chart for Race 2 and the comments actually include "euthanized" for Apex. "broke down, euthanized"

I don't recall seeing it said quite so expressly - but I don't look at as many charts as others here. Is this new, have I missed it being used in the past, or was this one so bad it was the only possible way to describe it?

Saw a friend's horse euthanized on the track and the chart said something like "took a bad step at 3/8th pole; vanned off". I'm all in favor of the truth, so I'm not complaining about it - just hadn't seen it before.

I've seen euthanized used in charts for years. It isn't consistent, but it isn't new.

[devilsbag]

The New York Times is reporting that after they got done with the tent, three homeless patrons moved into it.

[Stillriledup]

To get back on topic a bit - I just looked at the full chart for Race 2 and the comments actually include "euthanized" for Apex. "broke down, euthanized"

I don't recall seeing it said quite so expressly - but I don't look at as many charts as others here. Is this new, have I missed it being used in the past, or was this one so bad it was the only possible way to describe it?

Saw a friend's horse euthanized on the track and the chart said something like "took a bad step at 3/8th pole; vanned off". I'm all in favor of the truth, so I'm not complaining about it - just hadn't seen it before.

You see it sometimes, but i think you might be right in that this is somewhat new. I don't remember seeing that way back in the day, it seems to be just in recent years (or months) they have been adding that.

[VeryOldMan]

I've seen euthanized used in charts for years. It isn't consistent, but it isn't new.
Got it - thanks.

[thespaah]

What does everybody want?

Here's the bottom line. If you want to eliminate racing related fatalities and injuries, shut down the sport.

It happens EVERYWHERE...no matter the season, no matter the temperature, no matter the condition of the track.

And it happens in CLUSTERS, again, often times unrelated to ANYTHING except random bad luck and statistics.

That's the cold hard FACT of this game. Take it or leave it.
I cannot agree more. Racing has its hazards. For anyone to imply there is negligence is ludicrous. These animals are very well cared for.
Breakdowns occur for more reasons that just track conditions.
soundness of the animal is a key ingredient. Hidden injuries which cannot be or are very difficult to detect even by the most astute of Vets.
Yes, exposure to extreme cold does on occasion have an adverse effect on living creatures. However, I believe precautions are taken.
No person in the horse racing business wishes their charges to become injured or experience breakdowns which are fatal.

[cj]

I cannot agree more. Racing has its hazards. For anyone to imply there is negligence is ludicrous. These animals are very well cared for.
Breakdowns occur for more reasons that just track conditions.
soundness of the animal is a key ingredient. Hidden injuries which cannot be or are very difficult to detect even by the most astute of Vets.
Yes, exposure to extreme cold does on occasion have an adverse effect on living creatures. However, I believe precautions are taken.
No person in the horse racing business wishes their charges to become injured or experience breakdowns which are fatal.


I agree with a lot of this, but I also think claiming races contribute and need to go away. With the purses today, it is too tempting to play games with horses and health.

[thespaah]

I'd be wondering if there were no concerns after Race 1, did the track suddenly change for race 2?

If the track had ice in it, why not cancel after race 1?
Well, I can surmise that it is difficult to examine one mile by 70 foot area all in one pass. Perhaps as the the jockeys were going across the track during warmups, they spotted problem areas. After they began the warmup period before the second, more riders spotted similar issues and called attention to the issues.
The patrol judges can do only so much. They rely on the jockeys to be extra sets of eyes

[thespaah]

I agree with a lot of this, but I also think claiming races contribute and need to go away. With the purses today, it is too tempting to play games with horses and health.
I had the same sentiment in mind, but decided to steer clear of it to avoid being flamed.
Thanks for the bailout...
I have a couple asbestos suits in the closet. Want to borrow one?

[Stillriledup]

I agree with a lot of this, but I also think claiming races contribute and need to go away. With the purses today, it is too tempting to play games with horses and health.

Many give into those temptations as they know they're playing musical horses, they know they won't own that runner except in the short term and they treat the horse as a disposable commodity. Why we still permit this in 2015 is anyone's guess.

[Robert Fischer]

Why we still permit this in 2015 is anyone's guess.

If we screened out horses that were unsound, and if we added safeguards to prevent the exploitation of claiming horses, then we couldn't afford to have cheap claiming races. We'd have to change something with the system in order to have both.

[FantasticDan]

NYRA considers trimming dates (http://www.drf.com/news/wake-breakdowns-nyra-officials-consider-trimming-schedule)

[jk3521]

[QUOTE=FantasticDan]NYRA considers trimming dates (http://www.drf.com/news/wake-breakdowns-nyra-officials-consider-trimming-schedule)[/QUOTE

Would be interesting to see that" list of 15-20 horses "that would not be allowed to race at Big A and their trainers and owners.

[aaron]

Aqueduct has cancelled Saturday 1/10/2015.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

What does everybody want?

Here's the bottom line. If you want to eliminate racing related fatalities and injuries, shut down the sport.

It happens EVERYWHERE...no matter the season, no matter the temperature, no matter the condition of the track.

And it happens in CLUSTERS, again, often times unrelated to ANYTHING except random bad luck and statistics.

That's the cold hard FACT of this game. Take it or leave it.

Violette: Horsemen ‘Deeply Concerned’ About Aqueduct Breakdowns
Hey Rick- please see above comments from the "big man" at Pace Advantage. It happens everywhere, in clusters and that's a fact. So take it or leave it. No need to investigate.

[Robert Goren]

Anybody who has read Bloodhorse 's coverage of the NYRA board's meetings over the last couple of years knows that NYRA knows they have a problem. They have a committee looking at options including installing an "artificial" surface at either Aqueduct or Belmont. They are not considering, from what I could gather, abandoning the winter dates.

[pandy]

I'll chalk it up to short sample statistical anomaly and leave it at that...until someone presents a compelling reason otherwise.


It's possible that it's just bad luck, but I don't believe in coincidences. Case in point, the year that Ruffian suffered her fatal breakdown, several horses broke down on the final turn at Belmont. Some horsemen even said that they were concerned and that there could be a problem at that point on the track. When they announced the match race, I was very worried that there would be a breakdown in the race.

Something may be wrong with the inner track. After a certain amount of years, all of these tracks need to be resurfaced. Remember the Del Mar dirt track the last few years they raced on it? It was dangerous.

The inner track has always been one of the safest tracks in the country, but I believe that had problems early in the meet last year, and now this. Something seems wrong.

[jballscalls]

BTW, nice user name you quoted there...props to that...

Mike Hunt...with the umlaut no less...


Priceless.

I got to meet Mike at Santa Anita last week. Really good dude, sharp handicapper, interesting name.

[Tom]

[QUOTE=FantasticDan]NYRA considers trimming dates (http://www.drf.com/news/wake-breakdowns-nyra-officials-consider-trimming-schedule)[/QUOTE

Would be interesting to see that" list of 15-20 horses "that would not be allowed to race at Big A and their trainers and owners.

I can see a law suit here- if NYRA actually has a list of horses like this and doesn't ban them nor reveal who they are, I thing a smart lawyer/whale combo could own themselves a race track by losing on one of them.

[Tall One]

Anybody who has read Bloodhorse 's coverage of the NYRA board's meetings over the last couple of years knows that NYRA knows they have a problem. They have a committee looking at options including installing an "artificial" surface at either Aqueduct or Belmont. They are not considering, from what I could gather, abandoning the winter dates.



A polytrack would do wonders for both tracks.

[bello]

Violette: Horsemen ‘Deeply Concerned’ About Aqueduct Breakdowns
Hey Rick- please see above comments from the "big man" at Pace Advantage. It happens everywhere, in clusters and that's a fact. So take it or leave it. No need to investigate.

You Betcha....Has nothing to do wit track conditions whatsoever....Just a statistical anomaly. Must be a Peta conspiracy keeping Aqueduct closed again today. Or maybe those SOB jocks want a day off again ( even though they don' get paid when they DON'T ride). Yeah, those winter jocks and apprentices trying to make a name for themselves on the NY winter circuit have more $$$$$ than they know what to do with. Unsafe track my ass.

BREADOWNS ARE A STATISITICAL ANOMALY....

Yeah, thats the ticket

Mr. Urine

[GatetoWire]

This isn't a NYRA issue.
It's an Owner and Trainer issue.

Stop running patched up horses looking to make extra $$ with one more start.

The winter at Aqueduct has less competition, good purses and active claiming.

There is a ton of incentive for Owners and Trainers to inject/patch up horses and run them, often 2-3 times a month.

The owners and trainers entered these horses not NYRA

[cj]

This isn't a NYRA issue.
It's an Owner and Trainer issue.

Stop running patched up horses looking to make extra $$ with one more start.

The winter at Aqueduct has less competition, good purses and active claiming.

There is a ton of incentive for Owners and Trainers to inject/patch up horses and run them, often 2-3 times a month.

The owners and trainers entered these horses not NYRA


Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Planned breaks from racing are out the window these days, horses just run until they can't below the stakes level.

[bello]

This isn't a NYRA issue.
It's an Owner and Trainer issue.

Stop running patched up horses looking to make extra $$ with one more start.

The winter at Aqueduct has less competition, good purses and active claiming.

There is a ton of incentive for Owners and Trainers to inject/patch up horses and run them, often 2-3 times a month.

The owners and trainers entered these horses not NYRA

The thread has taken a turn from track condition cancellation to other reasons horses break down. GTW you are partially correct. The Entry Box at Aquaduct, ( and it is worse this year than ever) is loaded with horses making up some of the worst field I have ever seen at ANY track. Slow horses do not necessarily mean lame or unhealthy horses, but most of the sturdy slow horses find themselves at the B and C tracks. What we have at Aquaduct this winter are a bevy of marginally healthy horses being entered into tiny fields for ridiculously inflated purses.

Key word above is tiny field. I am NOT saying this is the case, but one can make a case for NYRA, their vets and judges allowing horses to race to fill races. I hope that is NOT the case, but tey do have a responsibility to weed out unsound horses to the best of their abilities. And tat IS a NYRA responsibility.

Answer is to end this moronic winter meet in NY. Te Spa and Belmont have to much integrity and sizzle to be tarnished by this meet.

Sorry, having issues wit te HHH sticking on te keyboard

Mr Urine

[alydar]

The thread has taken a turn from track condition cancellation to other reasons horses break down. GTW you are partially correct. The Entry Box at Aquaduct, ( and it is worse this year than ever) is loaded with horses making up some of the worst field I have ever seen at ANY track. Slow horses do not necessarily mean lame or unhealthy horses, but most of the sturdy slow horses find themselves at the B and C tracks. What we have at Aquaduct this winter are a bevy of marginally healthy horses being entered into tiny fields for ridiculously inflated purses.

Key word above is tiny field. I am NOT saying this is the case, but one can make a case for NYRA, their vets and judges allowing horses to race to fill races. I hope that is NOT the case, but tey do have a responsibility to weed out unsound horses to the best of their abilities. And tat IS a NYRA responsibility.

Answer is to end this moronic winter meet in NY. Te Spa and Belmont have to much integrity and sizzle to be tarnished by this meet.

Sorry, having issues wit te HHH sticking on te keyboard

Mr Urine

I wouldn't even try to make any accusations along this line, but I have to admit it passes the "smell test" with me. I think that the high purses have a corrupting effect on things. As the years go by, watching winter racing in NY gets harder for me. It just doesn't feel right any more.

[Stillriledup]

I wouldn't even try to make any accusations along this line, but I have to admit it passes the "smell test" with me. I think that the high purses have a corrupting effect on things. As the years go by, watching winter racing in NY gets harder for me. It just doesn't feel right any more.

The question i have with this is would most of these horsemen, who are "Corrupted" by high purses, do the right thing if the purses were much lower? Or, would corrupt people just keep acting corruptly?

If you don't put the animals first for HUGE money, would you put them first for much smaller money?

[Robert Goren]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/89531/ny-officials-call-for-more-safety-vigilance?source=rss

[Robert Fischer]

There is a ton of incentive for Owners and Trainers to inject/patch up horses and run them, often 2-3 times a month.

The owners and trainers entered these horses not NYRA

When there's 'incentive' do to the wrong thing, maybe NYRA or whoever the governing bodies are should be questioned.

People are going to exploit situations when there are incentives.

Ideally, some bright people who have a clear insight into the system, sit down around the table, and they tweak the system so that the incentives line up with the "right behavior", and that things like running unsound horses become "disincentivized".

[Stillriledup]

This isn't a NYRA issue.
It's an Owner and Trainer issue.

Stop running patched up horses looking to make extra $$ with one more start.

The winter at Aqueduct has less competition, good purses and active claiming.

There is a ton of incentive for Owners and Trainers to inject/patch up horses and run them, often 2-3 times a month.

The owners and trainers entered these horses not NYRA

And without claiming races, this stuff wouldn't happen. Trainers and owners would know that if they ran a horse into the ground, its their horse and they're they ones who will pay the upkeep bills during the down time. Unless you have the actual worst horse in racing, there's always someone who will claim your horse, even if its for 2,500 at Los Alamitos, so you can run, run, run until you get to the bottom, and then its someone else's problem.

Things would be a lot different if the "rent a horse" program went away.

[Robert Goren]

One has to wonder how short the fields would be if they did not run the patched up horses. If you want to ban them, then please figure out where the horses are going to be coming from to take their place. We already know the horsemen will fight any attempt to run fewer races. If you do away with claiming races, the horses running in them will not suddenly become sound if they call the race an Allowance Race for NW of a race in 6 months. A couple decades ago, they used to run horses 2 or 3 times a month, 20-25 times a years and the bottom claiming ranks was packed with patched up horses and we did not have anything near this problem. The question should be what changed?

[Tom]

Not from Keeneland - they cancelled the spring sale due to lack of horses.
California had the bright ideas that the solution was artificial surfaces...that worked out well.

[NY BRED]

My friends in Forest Hills, about 7 miles from the Big A state there
was little wind/and or/ any wind issues yesterday morning.

I presume the closing was due to the track surface...

[Robert Goren]

The break downs whether a statistical anomaly or not, will eventually effect handle because no one wants to have money on a horse that goes down. Neither do they want to figure the odds of a horse going down. But then again that assumes somebody at NYRA is actually worried about handle anymore.

[Tom]

Any word on today yet?

[titans1127]

Any word on today yet?Nothing on the website or social media. So it looks like today is a go as of right now. I haven't had a chance to step outside just yet but yesterday it felt worse outside than it did on friday, so track conditions aside as long as it isn't too windy they should be okay to race.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

Any word on today yet?

warmer today compared to the other days down here....

scratches were posted as well as the track conditions, looks like we're good to go at the Big A :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[therussmeister]

warmer today compared to the other days down here....

scratches were posted as well as the track conditions, looks like we're good to go at the Big A :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:
For at least two races. :rolleyes:

[senortout]

Sorry, Mr. Urine but i sould ave tougt before now tat I tink you ave one of tose wee widdle keyboards, donca know?

[RXB]

A couple decades ago, they used to run horses 2 or 3 times a month, 20-25 times a years and the bottom claiming ranks was packed with patched up horses and we did not have anything near this problem.

Are there stats to back this up? I know horses run far fewer races than they did 40-50 years ago but I don't know if the breakdown rate per start has changed substantially or not over the years. I suspect that tracks didn't keep particularly detailed stats on breakdowns until the past couple of decades.

[mountainman]

What does everybody want?

It happens EVERYWHERE...no matter the season, no matter the temperature, no matter the condition of the track.

And it happens in CLUSTERS, again, often times unrelated to ANYTHING except random bad luck and statistics.

That's the cold hard FACT of this game. Take it or leave it.

A blunt truth perfectly summarized.

[Tom]

Can anyone point me to a track where there were 11 breakdowns in 20 days recently?

[Stillriledup]

One has to wonder how short the fields would be if they did not run the patched up horses. If you want to ban them, then please figure out where the horses are going to be coming from to take their place. We already know the horsemen will fight any attempt to run fewer races. If you do away with claiming races, the horses running in them will not suddenly become sound if they call the race an Allowance Race for NW of a race in 6 months. A couple decades ago, they used to run horses 2 or 3 times a month, 20-25 times a years and the bottom claiming ranks was packed with patched up horses and we did not have anything near this problem. The question should be what changed?


They won't become sound if you start calling the claiming race an allowance race, but what does happen is that the owners know that with no claiming races, "dumping" is not as easy as it used to be. If you own the horse, there's really no way to get rid of the horse unless someone buys it privately, which isn't going to happen nearly as much, especially since the new prospective owner will want to look the horse over before the purchase.

You would be more apt to do right by the horse if there was no claiming.

Also, i would have some type of program where every horse and there whereabouts are tracked. You can't just make horses "disappear" and you can't say i sold the horse to a nice amish fellow, that won't fly.

[dirty moose]

Drugs = lifetime ban.......

[nijinski]

Can anyone point me to a track where there were 11 breakdowns in 20 days recently?

We don't hear about them as much from minor tracks .
The sad fact is what happens to the horses at some minor
tracks when they are injured . It's too often kill buyer auction
or neglect .
I just saw a photo the other day of a recent runner from one of
these tracks , who was picked up suffering severe malnutrition ,
due to neglect . The owner -trainer is banned from several other
tracks .

Thankfully NYRA is watching the situation. I choose to believe NYRA and for
the most part and the local connections are better than that .

[Stillriledup]

Anyone thinking that Aqu might install a synthetic track, you know, in the name of safety?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64335&page=2&pp=15

[Robert Fischer]

Anyone thinking that Aqu might install a synthetic track, you know, in the name of safety?


I'd like to say that synthetic is unlikely because it makes no sense to change the surface before we


find out if deaths correlate to exploiting the claiming loopholes
change the incentives
However, I think synthetic is unlikely because there is a stigma towards it as a garbage surface, even to a significant extent beyond winterized dirt.

[Tom]

I doubt you will ever see another track go to an artificial surface in this country.

[thespaah]

A polytrack would do wonders for both tracks.
Nope. Other jurisdictions are removing the artificial surfaces.

[Robert Goren]

They won't become sound if you start calling the claiming race an allowance race, but what does happen is that the owners know that with no claiming races, "dumping" is not as easy as it used to be. If you own the horse, there's really no way to get rid of the horse unless someone buys it privately, which isn't going to happen nearly as much, especially since the new prospective owner will want to look the horse over before the purchase.

You would be more apt to do right by the horse if there was no claiming.

Also, i would have some type of program where every horse and there whereabouts are tracked. You can't just make horses "disappear" and you can't say i sold the horse to a nice amish fellow, that won't fly. What can you do with a race horse that can't race if you are owner who does not have a farm to send it to? Sure there are a few places, but there are far more horse than places. Like a 100 to 1. Charity can only do so much. Nobody is going to buy a race horse if they have to pay for 20 years of care.

[bello]

What can you do with a race horse that can't race if you are owner who does not have a farm to send it to? Sure there are a few places, but there are far more horse than places. Like a 100 to 1. Charity can only do so much. Nobody is going to buy a race horse if they have to pay for 20 years of care.
Is that a rhetorical question? In harness racing they are "amished". Owners give the horses over to the Amish and they either hitch a buggy to them or sell them to the slaughterers. Now you are not going to hitch a thoroughbred to a buggy, but I am sure most of them still find their way to the slaughterhouse.

Mountainman, I am sorry to put you on the spot here, but Mountaineer is the last leg for many racehorses. What happens to Mountaineer horses when they are done?

[Tom]

Finger Lakes.
We call 'em sharp shippers!

[RXB]

However, I think synthetic is unlikely because there is a stigma towards it as a garbage surface, even to a significant extent beyond winterized dirt.

Which is laughable.

[Tall One]

Nope. Other jurisdictions are removing the artificial surfaces.


Keeneland and Del Mar removed theirs because of BC aspirations, and I dont blame them. My reasoning for AQU & BEL( BEL especially) to consider poly as an alternate for the inner course, is for off-turf races where we could avoid 80% of a field scratching because of some rain.

I'm not a fan of synthetics, but I will applaud Woodbine for the quality of their surface though. Nice summer meet they hold up there, imo. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

My friends in Forest Hills, about 7 miles from the Big A state there
was little wind/and or/ any wind issues yesterday morning.

I presume the closing was due to the track surface...The expertise around here knows no bounds...

[PaceAdvantage]

Can anyone point me to a track where there were 11 breakdowns in 20 days recently?When they go for long periods of time without a breakdown, nobody posts about it here...why is that?

[Stillriledup]

When they go for long periods of time without a breakdown, nobody posts about it here...why is that?

Because long periods of no breakdowns is expected, tracks shouldn't get virtual message board pats on the back for not having breakdowns.

[Robert Fischer]

Because long periods of no breakdowns is expected, tracks shouldn't get virtual message board pats on the back for not having breakdowns.

Who expects no breakdowns?

That's unrealistic. Horses clip heels. Horses take a bad step or have an undetected problem and could have been running great otherwise.

[PaceAdvantage]

Because long periods of no breakdowns is expected, tracks shouldn't get virtual message board pats on the back for not having breakdowns.So sayeth the Lord...

[Stillriledup]

So sayeth the Lord...


O Come All Ye Faithful
Joyful and triumphant,
O come ye, O come ye to Parx in Bethlem, Pa.
Come and behold(er) Him,
Born the King (hollendorfer) of Angels (cordero);
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
(steve) Christ the Lord.

[Robert Fischer]

It's not clear that these breakdowns have anything to do with the track surface or unsound animals.

I would have to study the breakdowns and have specific information to come to either conclusion. Numbers alone are fairly meaningless.

We've already typed about issues with the claiming game and how the incentives don't line up with the behavior we claim to demand. That is an improvement that could be made separately and has a probability to at least slightly decrease the breakdown rate.

The track maintenance seems to be pretty good. That's an area where I have very little insight.

Is it possible to do our due diligence? Can logic rule or has emotion and agenda slain logic long ago?

[Stillriledup]

It's not clear that these breakdowns have anything to do with the track surface or unsound animals.

I would have to study the breakdowns and have specific information to come to either conclusion. Numbers alone are fairly meaningless.

We've already typed about issues with the claiming game and how the incentives don't line up with the behavior we claim to demand. That is an improvement that could be made separately and has a probability to at least slightly decrease the breakdown rate.

The track maintenance seems to be pretty good. That's an area where I have very little insight.

Is it possible to do our due diligence? Can logic rule or has emotion and agenda slain logic long ago?

Everytime there's a breakdown, the track in question doesn't ever view that as a compromised horse who shouldn't have been out there in the first place. Its viewed as either a sound horse taking a random bad step or something wrong with the track. In other words, its viewed as something that absolutely couldn't have been avoided.

[Robert Fischer]

Everytime there's a breakdown, the track in question doesn't ever view that as a compromised horse who shouldn't have been out there in the first place. Its viewed as either a sound horse taking a random bad step or something wrong with the track. In other words, its viewed as something that absolutely couldn't have been avoided.
It's not an easy thing to figure out. I wouldn't trust people to get it right, even if we had people trying to look at each breakdown.

That's why I suggest starting with fundamentals that align with the basic things we want (Track Maintenance and Sound horses).

[Stillriledup]

It's not an easy thing to figure out. I wouldn't trust people to get it right, even if we had people trying to look at each breakdown.

That's why I suggest starting with fundamentals that align with the basic things we want (Track Maintenance and Sound horses).

There's a reason that you don't see chain reaction spills in the Ky Derby or other big races all that often....the scrutiny is much higher than an average 5k claimer at a minor track. If every track had "ky derby type scrutiny" on the runners, we would see a heck of a lot less breakdowns.

[pandy]

As you know, there have been quite a few breakdowns during major events like the Breeders Cup and in Triple Crown races. There was that day in Dubai a few years ago where I believe three horses broke down in one turf race and a few others broke down over their beautiful new turf course.

[horses4courses]

As you know, there have been quite a few breakdowns during major events like the Breeders Cup and in Triple Crown races. There was that day in Dubai a few years ago where I believe three horses broke down in one turf race and a few others broke down over their beautiful new turf course.

What are you saying here?
That breakdowns happen as regularly in G1 stakes
races as they do in low level claiming events?

While it's regrettable that breakdowns occur during races
where millions of people can be watching, I tend to think
that they happen far less in those affairs than they do in
cheaper races (where few people are tuned in).

Reminds me of the Breeders' Cup where I lost all respect
for Charlsie Cantey as a racing commentator.
Somewhere back in the early 90s I think, she made the
comment that she regretted the breakdown of a high
quality turf horse which was likely, in her opinion,
due to the soft turf conditions, What utter nonsense.
Soft turf is generally kinder to horses joints than
firm turf is - especially very firm, dry, turf.
She should have known better.

[Stillriledup]

There have been some high profile breakdowns like Go For Wand and Prairie Bayou and the Filly in the Derby who broke down on the gallop out, but what it really comes down to isn't actual breakdowns, its the scrutiny that goes into determining who can race and who can not. I would imagine, but don't know for sure, if Churchill goes over the derby runners with a fine tooth comb, the last thing they want is a horse to break down on the lead at the top of the lane and cause a chain reaction...they have to be VERY vigilant at who they let run. That same type of scrutiny is not done with the average, everyday 5k claimer at B and C tracks.

[Robert Fischer]

It would be nice if we started with our "due diligence".

I propose that means Track Maintenance and Soundness, but there's room for more additions.

You can have the top maintenance, and strict veterinary examinations with built-in common sense safeguards, and still have a rash of breakdowns.
You can also have borderline maintenance and racing with incentive to exploit the animal and have hardly any breakdowns.

Some of it is luck. But it would be nice if we started with the fundamentals. They add quality to the sport regardless of breakdown statistics.

[Tom]

Who expects no breakdowns?

That's unrealistic. Horses clip heels. Horses take a bad step or have an undetected problem and could have been running great otherwise.

Good place to start - look at the 11 "breakdowns" and categorize them in terms of what type they were. I mentioned this on day 2 or 3 of the meet - when the Times wrote the hit piece lumping a freak accident and a heart attack in with breakdowns.

Clipping heels and a heart attack and an unsound horse breaking down can't be lumped together by anyone , unless they are a low-rent as the Times.

[Relwob Owner]

What can you do with a race horse that can't race if you are owner who does not have a farm to send it to? Sure there are a few places, but there are far more horse than places. Like a 100 to 1. Charity can only do so much. Nobody is going to buy a race horse if they have to pay for 20 years of care.

If you don't have a place to send a horse or have the funds to support taking care of the horse while finding the home, I don't think you should own horses in the first place. I owned for about five years and had a pretty small operation, owning about 3-5 claimers at a time. I always had a plan of what to do and where to send a horse if he/she couldn't race anymore and just feel like that is the right thing to do.

[Robert Fischer]

Good place to start - look at the 11 "breakdowns" and categorize them in terms of what type they were. I mentioned this on day 2 or 3 of the meet - when the Times wrote the hit piece lumping a freak accident and a heart attack in with breakdowns.

Clipping heels and a heart attack and an unsound horse breaking down can't be lumped together by anyone , unless they are a low-rent as the Times.
:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:


But then you get the vultures with AGENDAS swooping in.
And they don't care about actually trying to improve or learn about the situation it's all about their profit from the story. They would love to pervert the facts. It's the same as politics. It is politics.

I have thought about it a good bit Tom, and about as much as you can expect someone to do for free as a caring fan - And I've come to the conclusion that aside from the the really bad luck stuff (like we said about healthy horses clipping heels, healthy chain reactions, heart attacks etc...) where we can eliminate some of the breakdowns as not possibly being due to Maintenance nor to Unsound horses... that the rest are very very hard to draw any real conclusions about, and it tends to bring us back to square one.
"Focus on our Due Diligence - Take care of the track, Take care of the horses".

[lamboguy]

no one has said a word about the 24 breakdown's that occurred during the Keenland meet after they changed back to dirt. those breakdowns were a combination of morning and afternoon.
they originally replaced the dirt surface because it had a bias and wanted to get rid of it, so they went to all weather track. then no trainer's wanted to train there and no one wanted to bet there so they went back to dirt, and it was hard as a rock. now they have gone to work to straighten out their new track.

i don't want to blast Keenland because they certainly try hard and do some very nice things. they have a millitary appreciation raise money and have a day for unfortunate kids in make a wish day. in those aspects they are excellent. i certainly hope they get their racing back in order soon.

[dilanesp]

no one has said a word about the 24 breakdown's that occurred during the Keenland meet after they changed back to dirt. those breakdowns were a combination of morning and afternoon.
they originally replaced the dirt surface because it had a bias and wanted to get rid of it, so they went to all weather track. then no trainer's wanted to train there and no one wanted to bet there so they went back to dirt, and it was hard as a rock. now they have gone to work to straighten out their new track.

i don't want to blast Keenland because they certainly try hard and do some very nice things. they have a millitary appreciation raise money and have a day for unfortunate kids in make a wish day. in those aspects they are excellent. i certainly hope they get their racing back in order soon.

A lot of horsemen and handicappers hate artificial tracks, but when you get a good installation (which isn't guaranteed-- see Santa Anita's problems a few years ago), they really are safer.

The great long-term threat to racing is the animal rights movement. I suspect that at some point someone is going to revive the artificial track mandate that the CHRB imposed several years ago and then backed off on.

But it's definitely no surprise when places that switched to Poly due to breakdowns see breakdowns again when they switch back to dirt. Or that a track that runs race cards in freezing cold weather like Aqueduct does might see breakdowns.

And on the first of those two points, Del Mar was absolutely terrible with respect to its breakdown statistics before they put in the Polytrack. I'm very worried about what we see this summer when they switch back.

[cj]

A lot of horsemen and handicappers hate artificial tracks, but when you get a good installation (which isn't guaranteed-- see Santa Anita's problems a few years ago), they really are safer.

The great long-term threat to racing is the animal rights movement. I suspect that at some point someone is going to revive the artificial track mandate that the CHRB imposed several years ago and then backed off on.

But it's definitely no surprise when places that switched to Poly due to breakdowns see breakdowns again when they switch back to dirt. Or that a track that runs race cards in freezing cold weather like Aqueduct does might see breakdowns.

And on the first of those two points, Del Mar was absolutely terrible with respect to its breakdown statistics before they put in the Polytrack. I'm very worried about what we see this summer when they switch back.

I think a dirt track built from the ground up might be as safe, but we don't really know. Comparing relatively new artificial tracks to old dirt tracks is apples to oranges.

[Robert Fischer]

Comparing relatively new artificial tracks to old dirt tracks is apples to oranges.

good point.

[lamboguy]

A lot of horsemen and handicappers hate artificial tracks, but when you get a good installation (which isn't guaranteed-- see Santa Anita's problems a few years ago), they really are safer.

The great long-term threat to racing is the animal rights movement. I suspect that at some point someone is going to revive the artificial track mandate that the CHRB imposed several years ago and then backed off on.

But it's definitely no surprise when places that switched to Poly due to breakdowns see breakdowns again when they switch back to dirt. Or that a track that runs race cards in freezing cold weather like Aqueduct does might see breakdowns.

And on the first of those two points, Del Mar was absolutely terrible with respect to its breakdown statistics before they put in the Polytrack. I'm very worried about what we see this summer when they switch back.i had 3 2 year olds on the Santa Anita synthetic that came down with the exact same injury. of course i didn't know what i was doing out there and the track trainer knew less.

[RXB]

I think a dirt track built from the ground up might be as safe, but we don't really know. Comparing relatively new artificial tracks to old dirt tracks is apples to oranges.

Gulfstream had to install a new base when they expanded their dirt track in 2005, only a year or two before all of the synthetic surfaces appeared.

Gulfstream's dirt fatality rate from 2009-13 was a little lower than the national average for dirt tracks-- and yet, all of the Tapeta and Polytrack surfaces had a lower catastrophic injury rate than Gulfstream's dirt, most of them by a large margin. So did the Pro Ride at Santa Anita. The only synthetic surface with a higher fatality rate than the Gulfstream dirt was Hollywood Park's Cushion Track-- which, probably not coincidentally, was the most speed-favouring (read: dirt-like) of the synthetic surfaces.

When Santa Anita switched back to dirt for 2011 of course they had to install a new base. No matter-- the fatality rate on the new dirt track rocketed up compared to its synthetic years, basically back to the approximate level as the dirt years preceding the synthetic installation.

Keeneland had to re-make its base and drainage when they went back to dirt. The small sample size from the first meet yielded a fatality rate about the same as the Polytrack over the previous five years, but I'd be happy to take an even-money bet that as time goes along it won't be able to maintain that level.

[RXB]

no one has said a word about the 24 breakdown's that occurred during the Keenland meet after they changed back to dirt. those breakdowns were a combination of morning and afternoon.


24 breakdowns? What I read was that during the meet itself there were two racing fatalities and three training fatalities.

[Robert Goren]

If you don't have a place to send a horse or have the funds to support taking care of the horse while finding the home, I don't think you should own horses in the first place. I owned for about five years and had a pretty small operation, owning about 3-5 claimers at a time. I always had a plan of what to do and where to send a horse if he/she couldn't race anymore and just feel like that is the right thing to do.How many owners feel as you do? I suspect most don't. Especially owners of cheap claimers. What about the partnership owner groups? If the only owners were those who had a place to send washed up race horse, there would be a whole lot less owners. The problem of what to with race horses after they are done racing is something that plagues the industry. For most horses, they don't have an acceptable answer.

[Stillriledup]

If you don't have a place to send a horse or have the funds to support taking care of the horse while finding the home, I don't think you should own horses in the first place. I owned for about five years and had a pretty small operation, owning about 3-5 claimers at a time. I always had a plan of what to do and where to send a horse if he/she couldn't race anymore and just feel like that is the right thing to do.

Thats why they call it the sport of kings. Its not the sport of court jesters.