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EMD4ME
01-03-2015, 08:44 PM
Questions: who here has an ADW for rebates? Probably many. Need some feedback.

The past 5 years I've handled well over 400,000 (average). This year was a down year. Only bet 300,000. When does your ADW post your rebate?

How much do you get back for 35,000 a month?

Went to track today, expecting my NYRA rebates ($1300. Bet 55,000 to 60,000 this month). Money is usually in between the 2nd and 3rd of the month (regardless of if it's a racing day or not). Was told it might be in by the 6th. They advertise rebates to be paid within the first 3 racing days. Today was the third racing day and tomorrow the 4th.

I have friends who bet through capital otb and are given 7% regardless of bet type or track. NYRA doesn't provide that.

I have 1 p.m. from a nice gentlemen. Please give me other feedback. I am a NY state resident and I am annoyed.

My twin spires monthly bonus points are always available on every first of the month.

It's not a system issue because allllll month, nyra had an accurate total of my wagers.

I sincerely think it's an attempt to make an extra overnight sweep credit of the aggregate total, which is terrible.

ADW feedback please....

proximity
01-03-2015, 10:51 PM
with most adws you'll get rebates every morning and usually a lot more than 1300 for 55-60k of bets.

all of these new source market fees are making it tough for residents of states with live racing to join adws though and rising signal fees will further destroy the adw business.

however, as a ny resident betting 400k though that "nice gentleman" may be able to hook you up with one of the higher level xpressbet tiers????

good luck!!

Track Collector
01-04-2015, 01:46 AM
NY residents face a 5% surcharge on wagers made thru out-of-state ADWs.

Track Collector
01-04-2015, 01:58 AM
Check your latest p-m EMD4ME.

the little guy
01-04-2015, 08:55 AM
NY residents face a 5% surcharge on wagers made thru out-of-state ADWs.

This is a lie.

Robert Goren
01-04-2015, 09:05 AM
This is a lie.So the DRF was wrong when it report that.
http://www.drf.com/news/new-york-add-5-cent-fee-bets-made-out-state-companies

titans1127
01-04-2015, 10:42 AM
Twinspires has never taken any extra money from a winning bet from me ever nor have they ever notified me of ever eventually doing so.

SchagFactorToWin
01-04-2015, 11:19 AM
That is true. For instance, I was receiving a 10.5% rebate. It was reduced to 5.5.

ReplayRandall
01-04-2015, 11:27 AM
This is a lie.


TLG, where is your response to numerous posters telling you, that you are in error? Notice how much more civil my response is to you, versus your response to TC, "This is a lie".......

the little guy
01-04-2015, 11:32 AM
TLG, where is your response to numerous posters telling you, that you are in error? Notice how much more civil my response is to you, versus your response to TC, "This is a lie".......

Once again, that person lied. Frankly, around here, an error is the truth.

lamboguy
01-04-2015, 11:35 AM
TLG, where is your response to numerous posters telling you, that you are in error? Notice how much more civil my response is to you, versus your response to TC, "This is a lie".......he happens to be right, its not a surcharge, its a "market origin fee". i learned that from him with day rates, its not how much your total daily bill is, its how its broken down.

ReplayRandall
01-04-2015, 11:35 AM
Once again, that person lied. Frankly, around here, an error is the truth.

I see proof from them and not from you. Your response is unfounded and crude, to say the least.......Proof is on you to back up what you stated.

ReplayRandall
01-04-2015, 11:38 AM
he happens to be right, its not a surcharge, its a "market origin fee". i learned that from him with day rates, its not how much your total daily bill is, its how its broken down.

Those are semantics Lambo, and you know it. You know these players are getting CHARGED, so why the splitting of hairs?

cj
01-04-2015, 12:40 PM
Isn't it out of state ADWs being charged, not customers? If correct, ADWs set the rebate levels and could have chosen to leave them as is, or at least not reduce them by the full 5%.

Alwaysonpoint36
01-04-2015, 12:48 PM
Went to track today, expecting my NYRA rebates ($1300. Bet 55,000 to 60,000 this month). Money is usually in between the 2nd and 3rd of the month (regardless of if it's a racing day or not). Was told it might be in by the 6th. They advertise rebates to be paid within the first 3 racing days. Today was the third racing day and tomorrow the 4th.


see, the way NYRAs bank account is set up...is they got a checkin an a savings. but all the money is in the savings...so they gotta switch it to the checking, and that takes 3 business days..... [/kevin hart] :lol::lol:

ReplayRandall
01-04-2015, 12:58 PM
ADWs set the rebate levels and could have chosen to leave them as is, or at least not reduce them by the full 5%.


That's a good one, CJ........:lol:

cj
01-04-2015, 01:02 PM
That's a good one, CJ........:lol:

I'm actually being serious, unless you believe ADWs are operating on razor thin margins already. I don't believe that, but I could be wrong.

taxicab
01-04-2015, 03:00 PM
Isn't it out of state ADWs being charged, not customers? If correct, ADWs set the rebate levels and could have chosen to leave them as is, or at least not reduce them by the full 5%.

Correct.
The ADWs are taking the hit.
Not the customers.

Track Collector
01-04-2015, 05:28 PM
NY residents who wager with an out-of-state ADW and who receive a rebate with that ADW will more than likely be negatively impacted by a 5% fee imposed on subject ADWs.

This is a correction to my previous, erroneously-worded statement.

proximity
01-04-2015, 07:23 PM
TLG, where is your response to numerous posters telling you, that you are in error? Notice how much more civil my response is to you, versus your response to TC, "This is a lie".......

this.

track collector's post may not have been 100% accurate but to imply that he intentionally lied about something is much worse.

the little guy
01-04-2015, 08:42 PM
this.

track collector's post may not have been 100% accurate but to imply that he intentionally lied about something is much worse.

I will stick with the liar being worse than the person who calls him for it...but around here very little surprises me.

proximity
01-04-2015, 09:34 PM
I will stick with the liar being worse than the person who calls him for it...but around here very little surprises me.

there's a big difference between being wrong (or in this case not 100% right) and being intentionally deceptive.

and at least track collector tried to help the op.

you know or are in a position to get his answers and just offer up criticism.

lamboguy
01-04-2015, 10:20 PM
this is the absolute truth on NY 5% surcharge from a guy that knows.



Any out-of-state bet taker must pay a 5% source market fee to the New York state on the dollar amount of wagers accepted from N.Y. residents. e.g., you live in Saratoga and you bet $1,000 with Acme Bet during the year, Acme must pay NY State $50 for the privilege of having accepted those bets. Applies to ALL breeds, ALL tracks.



This 5% obviously reduces the spread on wagers Acme accepts from NYS residents. For most rebaters, the lionís share of the spread is being paid back to the players in the form of rebates. The amount held, commonly called the Ďholdí by rebaters ranges from 6% to smaller players to as little as 1% on whales. In most cases it isnít possible for the rebate shop to absorb all of the 5% they must pay. Practically speaking what most did was reduce the rebates paid to their NY customers by 3-4% and reduce their hold by 1-2%. Clearly thatís not possible on the whales that were playing with 1-3% holds. In their case, the ADW typically reduced their rebates by 4% to account for the 5% surcharge.



Make no mistake, the 5% is a tax, any way you cut it and like with all taxes will typically end up coming out of the customers' pockets. This fee isnít the only reason NYRAís handle has gotten clobbered but it is certainly a factor.

dirty moose
01-05-2015, 12:12 AM
I will stick with the liar being worse than the person who calls him for it...but around here very little surprises me.

Guys like you really don't help the image of racing or NYRA specifically.
You should be an ambassador, someone to help guys out around here, especially this guy who is putting 300k a year thru NYRA's windows. That 300k helps pay your salary. Instead you just try to be too cool for the room.... Get over yourself...

dirty moose
01-05-2015, 12:23 AM
And if you don't want to help (which is perfectly fine, in my opinion) maybe you should just keep your mouth shut...?

Track Collector
01-05-2015, 01:48 AM
I will stick with the liar being worse than the person who calls him for it...but around here very little surprises me.

Why are you making this something personal? I corrected my initial statement, and after that you still felt the need to call me a liar.

I know you are very sensitive about criticisms and negative comments regarding NYRA, and I know you do handicapping shows for Aqu/Bel/Sar. Many of your responses are terse, attacking, and confrontational. What is it that you are not telling us? Is it a professional thing, like protecting a business relationship you have that is not generally known by the public, or is it a personal thing, like you are generally unhappy with the direction of your life, or have been burdened physically and/or emotionally with something like a long serious illness of a loved one/family member?

Regardless, the 5% fee (to out-of-state ADWs) is a reality which hurts players in their already difficult task of making a profit with a game that already has too high of a takeout rate when compared to alternative forms of gaming.

ronsmac
01-05-2015, 05:49 PM
Once again, that person lied. Frankly, around here, an error is the truth.
He didn't lie, just used the wrong terminology. You're vicious response was out of line.

P Matties Jr
01-05-2015, 06:51 PM
See lamboguy's post. It couldn't be explained better.

Stillriledup
01-05-2015, 07:22 PM
See lamboguy's post. It couldn't be explained better.

I'm not following his post. Serling says the 5% is not true and never happened...unless he's not and i'm not getting all this liar liar pants on fire stuff?

elhelmete
01-05-2015, 07:58 PM
I'm not following his post. Serling says the 5% is not true and never happened...unless he's not and i'm not getting all this liar liar pants on fire stuff?

I think the "difference" is the 5% isn't applied immediately to the player, it's to the bet TAKER (ADW) which can choose to eat it in whole or in part or not at all.

Stillriledup
01-05-2015, 08:04 PM
I think the "difference" is the 5% isn't applied immediately to the player, it's to the bet TAKER (ADW) which can choose to eat it in whole or in part or not at all.

I see. So, some people are being impacted and some are not. So, there IS a 5%, its just that not everyone is impacted "5 percents worth".

ReplayRandall
01-05-2015, 08:07 PM
See lamboguy's post. It couldn't be explained better.

We all see and read the posts here Mr. Matties. Why don't you go back and read them all before chiming in with your insignificant post.......I couldn't have explained my point to YOU any better....

Stillriledup
01-05-2015, 08:08 PM
We all see and read the posts here Mr. Matties. Why don't you go back and read them all before chiming in with your insignificant post.......I couldn't have explained my point to YOU any better....

Aww, cmon RR, we want Matties to post more, don't shoo him away! :D

proximity
01-05-2015, 08:27 PM
We all see and read the posts here Mr. Matties. Why don't you go back and read them all before chiming in with your insignificant post.......I couldn't have explained my point to YOU any better....

i think he was responding to an sru post that was directly above his but is now missing? :confused:

elhelmete
01-05-2015, 08:29 PM
I see. So, some people are being impacted and some are not. So, there IS a 5%, its just that not everyone is impacted "5 percents worth".

Just my guess.

Stillriledup
01-05-2015, 08:32 PM
i think he was responding to an sru post that was directly above his but is now missing? :confused:

Must have been a glitch in the board, i'm pretty sure my post was respectful and within the guidelines TOS of this site, hey, "Stuff happens" and sometimes things vanish into outer space.

You're right, there was a post above that and he was responding to me. Darn glitches.

P Matties Jr
01-05-2015, 09:02 PM
We all see and read the posts here Mr. Matties. Why don't you go back and read them all before chiming in with your insignificant post.......I couldn't have explained my point to YOU any better....


My response was to a question that was asked (that has since been removed). It was my fault for not including in the quotes. It was not intended towards anybody else. Being a very important topic to me, I had intended to answer it myself but because I have read the whole link, I concluded I couldn't answer the question better than lamboguy did.

P Matties Jr
01-05-2015, 09:39 PM
I'm not following his post. Serling says the 5% is not true and never happened...unless he's not and i'm not getting all this liar liar pants on fire stuff?

Like some of the other guys explained, I'm sure Little Andy was upset that it looked like NYRA was charging a 5 percent tax to all players, and maybe they were using this misinformation in a harmful way towards NYRA and in a way to steal players from NYRA Rewards, especially with the comments of the original poster. To some of us, it's hard not to look at this state imposed fee as nothing more than a tax on the players because it effects us that way, but I can also understand Little Andy's thinking. When you have a topic like this that impacts people so intensely, it's not surprising passions might run high, but I will never doubt Little Andy's integrity or blame NYRA for this fee. For years, NYRA was the one holding this back, as they knew that this would hurt them in the long run.

ReplayRandall
01-05-2015, 09:54 PM
My response was to a question that was asked (that has since been removed). It was my fault for not including in the quotes. It was not intended towards anybody else. Being a very important topic to me, I had intended to answer it myself but because I have read the whole link, I concluded I couldn't answer the question better than lamboguy did.


Was totally unaware of the post disappearing. My apologies to you....

Stillriledup
01-05-2015, 10:13 PM
Like some of the other guys explained, I'm sure Little Andy was upset that it looked like NYRA was charging a 5 percent tax to all players, and maybe they were using this misinformation in a harmful way towards NYRA and in a way to steal players from NYRA Rewards, especially with the comments of the original poster. To some of us, it's hard not to look at this state imposed fee as nothing more than a tax on the players because it effects us that way, but I can also understand Little Andy's thinking. When you have a topic like this that impacts people so intensely, it's not surprising passions might run high, but I will never doubt Little Andy's integrity or blame NYRA for this fee. For years, NYRA was the one holding this back, as they knew that this would hurt them in the long run.

I got it, thanks.

I think that a lot of the confusion stems from using the "Nyra" letters in posts. Most bettors just know the big 3 tracks in ny as "nyra" that separates them from Finger Lakes and other tracks, people putting nyra lets other posters know they're talking about Aqu, Bel and Sar and not something else.

As far as the technicalities of whether or not its NYRA, most don't care who's responsible, obviously its not all NYRA's fault when things go wrong just as they don't get all the credit if things go right, the state is involved with this stuff too, but people don't like to have to type "nyra, the state, and other factions, etc" so they just stick it under the NYRA umbrella for posting purposes.

Most could care less who's responsible for what, all they know is that when they watch races from the big NY tracks, there's a "nyra logo" in the upper right of the tv...so, that's what most people go on, to them, its all the same.

You're right, passions run high on these issues, they're really sensitive and affect a lot of people.

Thanks again for the info.

proximity
01-05-2015, 11:05 PM
uhh? no one in the thread blamed nyra for the source market fee, sru. :confused:

and track collector never even mentioned nyra in his first post.

Stillriledup
01-05-2015, 11:10 PM
uhh? no one in the thread blamed nyra for the source market fee, sru. :confused:

and track collector never even mentioned nyra in his first post.

I was responding to PMJ's post, he mentions NYRA in there. Is what he posted incorrect?

proximity
01-05-2015, 11:47 PM
I think that a lot of the confusion stems from using the "Nyra" letters in posts.....

a lot of whose confusion? who exactly in the thread was confused by this? :confused:

this "little andy" person gets upset about people attacking nyra?

well if that's his thing, then that's his thing.

but in this thread, ONLY the op was upset at nyra and that had nothing to do with source market fees. he was mad because his nyra rebates didn't enter his account fast enough.

now i'm sure his account will be fine in a day or two if it already isn't..... so to me it's not worth getting upset about. or worth getting upset about him being upset about it.

drib
01-06-2015, 12:42 AM
Like some of the other guys explained, I'm sure Little Andy was upset that it looked like NYRA was charging a 5 percent tax to all players, and maybe they were using this misinformation in a harmful way towards NYRA and in a way to steal players from NYRA Rewards, especially with the comments of the original poster. To some of us, it's hard not to look at this state imposed fee as nothing more than a tax on the players because it effects us that way, but I can also understand Little Andy's thinking. When you have a topic like this that impacts people so intensely, it's not surprising passions might run high, but I will never doubt Little Andy's integrity or blame NYRA for this fee. For years, NYRA was the one holding this back, as they knew that this would hurt them in the long run.


Your observation about NYRA's reluctance refers to the "old" regime. Check out this thread http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114034
It sure seems to me that NYRA president Kay is awfully supportive of the new (unconstitutional) tax on out of state ADW's.
I should add that this position, given Cuomo's profit mandate, is reflective of the "new" NYRA's attempts to squeeze out every penny they can; witness the attempt to double rates charged Nevada, and large ticket price increases for the Belmont and Saratoga.

acorn54
01-06-2015, 01:22 AM
call the extra monies taken by n.y. from adw's anything you want, the adw's pass thru the added expense and the n.y. bettors take the hit on their bottom line.

P Matties Jr
01-06-2015, 03:21 AM
call the extra monies taken by n.y. from adw's anything you want, the adw's pass thru the added expense and the n.y. bettors take the hit on their bottom line.


I'm with you guys. They're definitely hitting me. If you told me 18 months ago after this law was passed, I'd still be a New York resident in 2015, I wouldn't have believed it. For the past year, I've spent more time thinking about this than anything else. It alone has caused a crossroads in my life, and I have constantly contemplated quitting and finding something else to do. To look at the figures at the end of the year, it's heart breaking. I have been lucky to make a few adjustments, and lucky enough to have made some personal non-financial choices that have worked for the time being, but you worry how long you can keep going... And it's not just about me. I have always felt and said that rebates were an effective way of lowering the takeout for regular players and that every regular player regardless of their handle deserves them (at the same rate), especially in this age where the CAW (computer assisted) players have every advantage in the world. I'm not sure they realize it, but they keep attacking the regular player with every move they make and it's not going to work. I just keep thinking if that if this industry could force a guy like me to think about quitting, there has to be lots of guys out there that already have, and that should be scary to some of the people in charge out there.


Drib, Thanks for the link and I agree with you and the ThoroBros that the law is unconstitutional and am shocked that New York was not the tipping point that caused them to fight it. However, I don't believe the current NYRA is behind it or is thinking this is some great revenue generator for them. Like you said, they didn't stop it like the last regime did but it's not NYRA's or the horsemen's fault for letting it get through. It is my opinion it was the OTBs who kept at it with the legislature as some back end gratuity for not challenging the casinos (and not getting slot machines), but at this point it doesn't really matter.

To proximity and still, the last thing I was trying to do is to stir anything up. I was asked a question and answered it. Little Andy (the little guy) definitely doesn't need me to speak for him, but I do know him to be an extremely honorable guy, and he must've felt something for him to react that way. Even though I know he won't agree with some of what I said above, I have much respect for what he's trying to do at NYRA and what he thinks (except for that last time was the time handicapping theory he has. I don't know where he came up with that one.)

ronsmac
01-06-2015, 08:19 AM
I'm with you guys. They're definitely hitting me. If you told me 18 months ago after this law was passed, I'd still be a New York resident in 2015, I wouldn't have believed it. For the past year, I've spent more time thinking about this than anything else. It alone has caused a crossroads in my life, and I have constantly contemplated quitting and finding something else to do. To look at the figures at the end of the year, it's heart breaking. I have been lucky to make a few adjustments, and lucky enough to have made some personal non-financial choices that have worked for the time being, but you worry how long you can keep going... And it's not just about me. I have always felt and said that rebates were an effective way of lowering the takeout for regular players and that every regular player regardless of their handle deserves them (at the same rate), especially in this age where the CAW (computer assisted) players have every advantage in the world. I'm not sure they realize it, but they keep attacking the regular player with every move they make and it's not going to work. I just keep thinking if that if this industry could force a guy like me to think about quitting, there has to be lots of guys out there that already have, and that should be scary to some of the people in charge out there.


Drib, Thanks for the link and I agree with you and the ThoroBros that the law is unconstitutional and am shocked that New York was not the tipping point that caused them to fight it. However, I don't believe the current NYRA is behind it or is thinking this is some great revenue generator for them. Like you said, they didn't stop it like the last regime did but it's not NYRA's or the horsemen's fault for letting it get through. It is my opinion it was the OTBs who kept at it with the legislature as some back end gratuity for not challenging the casinos (and not getting slot machines), but at this point it doesn't really matter.

To proximity and still, the last thing I was trying to do is to stir anything up. I was asked a question and answered it. Little Andy (the little guy) definitely doesn't need me to speak for him, but I do know him to be an extremely honorable guy, and he must've felt something for him to react that way. Even though I know he won't agree with some of what I said above, I have much respect for what he's trying to do at NYRA and what he thinks (except for that last time was the time handicapping theory he has. I don't know where he came up with that one.)TLG may be an honorable guy, but he disgraced and embarrassed himself for attacking Track Collector. Calling someone a liar when they didn't lie is far from honorable. Maybe TC didn't explain his thoughts properly the first time, but he corrected himself. I knew exactly what TC was trying to convey from his first message, even though TLG obviously did not.

lamboguy
01-06-2015, 10:23 AM
i met the Track Collector, real nice man. we all make mistakes because at times we are very passionate, i am positive this is the case with TC. when i met him he just couldn't do enough for me and looked like the type of guy that doesn't have a bad bone in his body.

OTM Al
01-06-2015, 10:33 AM
i met the Track Collector, real nice man. we all make mistakes because at times we are very passionate, i am positive this is the case with TC. when i met him he just couldn't do enough for me and looked like the type of guy that doesn't have a bad bone in his body.

I would second this. If all horse players were more like him, I guarantee you the sport would be held in high regard.

the little guy
01-06-2015, 11:07 AM
TLG may be an honorable guy, but he disgraced and embarrassed himself for attacking Track Collector. Calling someone a liar when they didn't lie is far from honorable. Maybe TC didn't explain his thoughts properly the first time, but he corrected himself. I knew exactly what TC was trying to convey from his first message, even though TLG obviously did not.


Track Collector recruits ( a nice word ) for rebate shops. He even did it in this thread with his " check your latest p-m EMD4ME " post. Now, that's OK. There's nothing wrong with that, except for a couple of things that pertain to this thread. One....he ( in the midst of an almost incoherent and nasty post to me ) accused me of essentially hiding something ( what, I would have no idea given my position in the industry is extremely public ) while in fact HE is the one not being completely upfront about his position with rebate shops. Now, that's OK, except given that, and his vast knowledge about rebates and such, makes it virtually impossible that he didn't know his first post here was a misrepresentation of the truth. In fact, he was quickly able to correct that once called on it. My guess is that he was whipped into a frenzy after that by some of his supporters in this thread, and then made his irreverent post to me, against his apparently good nature. That's OK, I'm used to it.

I really love some of the righteous indignation from you and Proximity in this thread. I mean, it's nice to have friends support friends. But, you've gone so over the top that it's kind of hard to take you seriously. Track Collector likely is a very nice guy, as I am sure are most of you here, but that doesn't change that he misrepresented a truth that he understands extremely well and got called out for it. That's all that happened here. The rest is just posturing by you and Proximity. Get over it...I deal with far nastier crap on a daily basis.

The sandbox is yours now. Try to hold yourself up to the standards you apparently set for others.

acorn54
01-06-2015, 11:24 AM
to the TLG i feel for you. you have a job i would not want, when you pick a winner your a hero and when you pick a loser that people put money on because of your analysis they call you a bum. besides that , you have to be a diplomat for nyra, warts and all, to encourage people to bet the horses racing at the nyra tracks, with nyra.
the people on this board (alot of them anyway), are sophisticated and seasoned horseplayers, that call nyra out on their warts.

thaskalos
01-06-2015, 11:39 AM
to the TLG i feel for you. you have a job i would not want, when you pick a winner your a hero and when you pick a loser that people put money on because of your analysis they call you a bum. besides that , you have to be a diplomat for nyra, warts and all, to encourage people to bet the horses racing at the nyra tracks, with nyra.
the people on this board (alot of them anyway), are sophisticated and seasoned horseplayers, that call nyra out on their warts.
I think most people here would LOVE to have TLG's job. How good they would be at it is another matter...but nothing beats getting paid to do something that you are passionate about.

acorn54
01-06-2015, 12:16 PM
I think most people here would LOVE to have TLG's job. How good they would be at it is another matter...but nothing beats getting paid to do something that you are passionate about.


thaskalos, i can tell you from my personal experience being involved in the thoroughbred handicapping end of the business it is not all that it is cracked up to be, or appears to be.
i was for a year working for the racing paper Sports Eye, back in its heyday in 83-84, until the court battle, jack cohen, publisher of the paper had with the drf, was lost and i was laid off, with the rest of the thoroughbred staff.
anyway the handicapping and picking the ponies for the public to bet was only a small part of the workday, almost 90% of the workday was doing mundane things, like dealing with the publics complaints, or need for information of one sort or another, or getting the production of the paper ready for publication by proofreading the chartcallers charts of races and sending info back and forth to other racetracks.

PaceAdvantage
01-06-2015, 02:35 PM
A lot of you guys need to dial it back a few notches.

I used to be a much bigger hard ass in terms of moderating back in the day. It's probably way past due that I bring some of that old-school style back here.

Everybody's a freakin' expert. Everybody has an axe to grind. Everybody is right. Jeez it gets freakin' ponderous.

Heck, this thread isn't even in the right section...we DO have an ADW sub-forum on here...