Is Phil Jackson overrated?

[Stillriledup]

Is he a fraud? Is he the Glen Sather of the NBA, built his reputation on the backs of the greatest of the greats when in reality, a monkey could have won with those players and teams?

[cj]

Is he a fraud? Is he the Glen Sather of the NBA, built his reputation on the backs of the greatest of the greats when in reality, a monkey could have won with those players and teams?

No, I don't buy that. All great coaches have great players. The Knicks just stink right now, but after decades of mismanagement he can't fix them overnight.

Also, he was only a coach before, no way to know if he knows how to build a team. It won't change his coaching legacy.

[Stillriledup]

He has a legacy, and someone has to be the top dog in title wins, but, would you say that Jackson is better than Popovich? Or, equal?

As far as him as a front office manager goes, i personally believe that keeping Carmelo was him not being too smart, that guy, Carmelo, isn't a player you built a team around, yet, Jackson obviously didn't know that....so, he still has work to do in the GM'ing dept.

[JustRalph]

The man can put a championship ring on each finger and still have one in a drawer at home. Including thumbs!

Impossible to be over-rated

[thaskalos]

If Phil Jackson is overrated...then "great coaching" is totally unnecessary. Just put some great players together...and get ANYBODY to coach them.

[Stillriledup]

If Phil Jackson is overrated...then "great coaching" is totally unnecessary. Just put some great players together...and get ANYBODY to coach them.

I think Phil's strength isn't necessarily COACHING, its managing the egos and keeping everyone on the same page. Great coaches might get players to play better as a team, but Phil was able to just keep the great players from underachieving.

[cj]

I think Phil's strength isn't necessarily COACHING, its managing the egos and keeping everyone on the same page. Great coaches might get players to play better as a team, but Phil was able to just keep the great players from underachieving.

That is coaching in the NBA.

[thaskalos]

I think Phil's strength isn't necessarily COACHING, its managing the egos and keeping everyone on the same page. Great coaches might get players to play better as a team, but Phil was able to just keep the great players from underachieving.

When Jackson was with the Bulls...I was always of the opinion that the "real" coach of the Bulls was MJ. But I changed my mind about Jackson when he went to the Lakers.

[Stillriledup]

That is coaching in the NBA.

But its only effective if you have great players. Its pretty much what Torre did with the great Yankees teams in the late 90s and early 2000s, he just had to keep it together and get out of the way.

[ronsmac]

No.

[headhawg]

That is coaching in the NBA.+1

One championship -- he's overrated. But 11 with two teams? Count 'em. 11. If you believe that he wasn't a great coach then you're just clueless. Phil Jackson >>> Erik Spoelstra.

[reckless]

It's the players, always the players.

And right now, the Knickerbockers are not only horrible but uncoachable (and even more unwatchable).

Dennis Rodman was asked 3-4 weeks back about the Knicks and if he thought Phil Jackson's Triangle Offense was basically too complicated to use.

Rodman said: 'Complicated? I learned the Triangle Offense in 15 minutes. It isn't complicated, it's just a triangle.'

[Stillriledup]

It's the players, always the players.

And right now, the Knickerbockers are not only horrible but uncoachable (and even more unwatchable).

Dennis Rodman was asked 3-4 weeks back about the Knicks and if he thought Phil Jackson's Triangle Offense was basically too complicated to use.

Rodman said: 'Complicated? I learned the Triangle Offense in 15 minutes. It isn't complicated, it's just a triangle.'

Let me add to my original thought on the overratedness.

If it IS the players, and Jackson's Championships have mostly been won with Jordan and Kobe on his teams, why is HE getting the credit? Seems fair that he would take some of the blame here too. While hes not the coach of the Knicks, he's essentially coaching the team on the floor, if he watches a game and doesn't like what he sees, he's in the ear of the actual coach giving advice, so his fingers are all over this mess.

Here's what has gotten me a bit concerned. Its this entire Melo situation. I don't know if i was critical right on these boards about melo, i'm pretty sure i've discussed this at one time or another, but while Melo is a gifted physical player, he's a mental midget, he's a real softie with a bad attitude, a guy like that isn't going to win a title as the centerpiece of the team, yet, Jackson didn't know this and signed this guy to huge money and huge years anyway.

No way i would have done that, Melo is on another team if i'm in the Phil Jackson role, we could be 5 and a million without him and the karma wouldn't be nearly as terrible.

[Poindexter]

Lakers were going nowhere and badly underachieving when Phil Jackson took over as their coach(and I followed them closely back then). Not saying another very good coach could not have done well, but he transformed Shaq, Kobe and company mentally into winners and I believe ultimately the great players they became(Shaq and Kobe). The number of times those Laker teams pulled out great wins when they looked to be beat, by what appeared to be better or at least equal teams at the time(Sacramento, Portland, I think San Antonio 1 year even the Celtics on the last Championship run) the number of Clutch shots by ordinary players, D Fish, Horry, Rick Fox I believe.......so much random stuff happens in NBA basketball yet the Lakers always found a way to finish on top. He did a very special job with the Lakers. Were they good, yes, but he made them as good as they were and certainly gave them that mental fortitude to always get the job done. No doubt in my mind. When they lost to Detroit, the party was over for them. Did not follow the NBA during the initial Jordan titles, but I know on the last 3 they were so dominant offensively and defensively(something the Lakers did not have) that it is hard for me to say. I just assume that he molded them just like he molded the Lakers.

[reckless]

Let me add to my original thought on the overratedness.

If it IS the players, and Jackson's Championships have mostly been won with Jordan and Kobe on his teams, why is HE getting the credit? Seems fair that he would take some of the blame here too. While hes not the coach of the Knicks, he's essentially coaching the team on the floor, if he watches a game and doesn't like what he sees, he's in the ear of the actual coach giving advice, so his fingers are all over this mess.

Here's what has gotten me a bit concerned. Its this entire Melo situation. I don't know if i was critical right on these boards about melo, i'm pretty sure i've discussed this at one time or another, but while Melo is a gifted physical player, he's a mental midget, he's a real softie with a bad attitude, a guy like that isn't going to win a title as the centerpiece of the team, yet, Jackson didn't know this and signed this guy to huge money and huge years anyway.

No way i would have done that, Melo is on another team if i'm in the Phil Jackson role, we could be 5 and a million without him and the karma wouldn't be nearly as terrible.

As we all must have noticed these past 100 years or so, the media just loves gurus, and Jackson is perfect at it. I don't buy into the 'genius' label that's all too easily hung on the latest coach or manager.

A truly great coach IMO, Larry Brown, has had numerous issues per Jackson over the years about this zen mystique. I don't believe anyone who follows basketball thinks Larry Brown could not have won championships with the Bulls teams or Lakers teams that Phil coached. Brown did what Jackson never has done ... build a team from scratch and win with scrubbinis.

As per Melo... there's only one reason why he is still with the Knicks. With all the salary cap money the Knicks are freeing up they will make a big effort to bag Durant or even LeBron in a year or two. Would any truly great player want to play for the Knicks if they have a bunch of slugs playing? No. But they would come to NY with Melo there. Melo gives the team credibility.

[Robert Fischer]

What the hell more was he supposed to do?
Win by more points?
Win more games? He already has the wins,titles marks or near to them...

He did his job.

Was he the greatest coaching mastermind of all time??
I don't know... Probably not.

You get to a certain point of success and 'more' almost becomes wasteful and certainly unaesthetic.

He did a nice job with his role, and his role was prominent. Give him credit for what he did. No more, no less.

[Stillriledup]

What the hell more was he supposed to do?
Win by more points?
Win more games? He already has the wins,titles marks or near to them...

He did his job.

Was he the greatest coaching mastermind of all time??
I don't know... Probably not.

You get to a certain point of success and 'more' almost becomes wasteful and certainly unaesthetic.

He did a nice job with his role, and his role was prominent. Give him credit for what he did. No more, no less.

Should he get more credit for winning, or for being the lucky coach who happened to have Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, etc?

Do you think guys like George karl, Popovich, Sloan etc would have lost titles with the same teams? Do you think one or more of Phils rings are rings that he was the only coach who could have won with that team in that year?

[Stillriledup]

Children were weeping after the 4th pick was thrown away. Jackson officially a fraud?

Can you spin it any other way?

[ReplayRandall]

Children were weeping after the 4th pick was thrown away. Jackson officially a fraud?

Can you spin it any other way?

Just like in horse racing, stocks and sports, you ARE what your RECORD is......

[Stillriledup]

Just like in horse racing, stocks and sports, you ARE what your RECORD is......

Sometimes it's not though. And his team just got the 4th pick n tossed it away. His record as a coach is pretty good thanks to Michael, Scotty, Kobe and Shaq.

Now he has a shot to be a 'genius basketball guy', seems like he's the laughing stock of the NBA tonight.

[ReplayRandall]

Sometimes it's not though. And his team just got the 4th pick n tossed it away. His record as a coach is pretty good thanks to Michael, Scotty, Kobe and Shaq.

Now he has a shot to be a 'genius basketball guy', seems like he's the laughing stock of the NBA tonight.

Time will tell the story, not some knee-jerk reaction on draft night. His RECORD gives him the respect and authority to make the call, not opinions of those who don't have the inside skinny.......

[Stillriledup]

Time will tell the story, not some knee-jerk reaction on draft night. His RECORD gives him the respect and authority to make the call, not opinions of those who don't have the inside skinny.......

There's nothing he knows that fans who watch the players dont know. This guy is going to be some kind of bust, he will be injured and he's getting tossed into the fire as the savior. Phil wants to show you that he's smarter than the "pundits" by not picking the guy you are 'supposed to pick'. Whoever was the 4th or 5th player among the consensus of draft experts is who should have been picked, why get cute?

[Valuist]

Just like in horse racing, stocks and sports, you ARE what your RECORD is......

Except when that record is fraudulent, and that happens in all 3 of the above mentioned areas. And it certainly isn't unusual.

That wasn't meant as a barb toward Jackson. I've just seen a lot of win loss records and stock prices that truly didn't reflect reality.

[Robert Fischer]

this whole thread is goofy as shit and the recent posts pile on in a steamy/stinky fashion for sure...


1. Jackson is proven as a competent coach of a face-of-nba top-quality team. On multiple occasions he coached an NBA team that had been configured to be the leading revenue vehicle for the NBA. While there were a number of coaching skills that he wasn't even asked to use in that capacity, he was very competent in what he was asked. The league is more than satisfied with his body of work. While there are teams like the Spurs and Warriors who build through good fortune and brilliant management, Stern Silver & co. have realized a better model for consistent revenue, and Phil did a fine job in all of that.

2. Jackson is currently a gimmick. The Knicks sloppily paid him some money for association and image and the ability to use phrases like 'triangle offense' , mainly because they are entering a period where the team is awful and their superstar is losing luster. The extent of his input, and the degree of team-changing moves may actually be fairly limited. The NYK franchise is not a 'real' NBA franchise in the sense that they assemble great basketball minds and build a franchise over several years that contends. Instead their role is to take advantage of their wonderful market position, sign guys like 'melo and 'amare who can do enough to sell seat-license packages and cable subscriptions, and otherwise be a steaming pile of dung similar to this thread.

[Robert Goren]

Since when do 10 year old kids know more the talent of a basketball player than a former coach with 11 rings.
Somebody made sure the kid took a selfie so in few years the kid will have a picture himself looking like a fool. ESPN will no doubt give him a copy of their video clip, so he can bask in his 15 seconds of fame too.

[ReplayRandall]

Except when that record is fraudulent, and that happens in all 3 of the above mentioned areas. And it certainly isn't unusual.

That wasn't meant as a barb toward Jackson. I've just seen a lot of win loss records and stock prices that truly didn't reflect reality.

My point was in reference to the record of winners/losers on a seasonal or yearly compiled basis. Example, SRU had a winning record for the 2014-2015 basketball season. His plays were posted and is a matter of public record.

I cashed out of the stock market in totality in April(posted in April in another thread) and my real net gain is now a factual record, subject to IRS scrutiny and taxes.(High probability of not re-entering market this year)

John O'Neil won the 2015 NHC in January, winning $800K, even though his record shows he didn't win a single tournament in the year leading up to the NHC. However, John shows a net profit on his records for the year and will pay taxes, accordingly.

Bottom-line, your RECORD is the definitive measuring stick of all investing/gambling/sports endeavors, and that IS reality, win or lose.....

[Stillriledup]

Its a what have you done for me lately kind of world. The fact that you used to be a winner doesnt matter much now. Phil used to be good at something, now hes good at nothing, do we keep giving him passes for being a good-for-nothing bozo because he used to win?

[ronsmac]

Is he a fraud? Is he the Glen Sather of the NBA, built his reputation on the backs of the greatest of the greats when in reality, a monkey could have won with those players and teams?No.

[ReplayRandall]

Its a what have you done for me lately kind of world. The fact that you used to be a winner doesnt matter much now. Phil used to be good at something, now hes good at nothing, do we keep giving him passes for being a good-for-nothing bozo because he used to win?

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Jackson was a failure.....Admit it SRU, you're a die-hard Clippers fan who has always detested the Lakers multiple Championships, and thus you are a Phil Jackson hater.......

[Stillriledup]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Jackson was a failure.....Admit it SRU, you're a die-hard Clippers fan who has always detested the Lakers multiple Championships, and thus you are a Phil Jackson hater.......

C'mon, that has nothing to do with anything. I don't dislike the lakers and I don't root against them, I'm just calling Phil out for the mess that he didn't fix in Ny, resigned melo when everyone but him knew that guy is a cancer and won't ever be the leader of a title team due to being soft, I don't like or dislike Phil, but a spade is a spade, right now the Knicks are a mess and he's done nothing at all to fix it, he's a clown as a GM or overseer or whatever his official title happens to be, just doing a horrible job, and he got called out because of it (I'm certainly not the only one calling him out)

[Valuist]

My point was in reference to the record of winners/losers on a seasonal or yearly compiled basis. Example, SRU had a winning record for the 2014-2015 basketball season. His plays were posted and is a matter of public record.

I cashed out of the stock market in totality in April(posted in April in another thread) and my real net gain is now a factual record, subject to IRS scrutiny and taxes.(High probability of not re-entering market this year)

John O'Neil won the 2015 NHC in January, winning $800K, even though his record shows he didn't win a single tournament in the year leading up to the NHC. However, John shows a net profit on his records for the year and will pay taxes, accordingly.

Bottom-line, your RECORD is the definitive measuring stick of all investing/gambling/sports endeavors, and that IS reality, win or lose.....

Getting back to the infamous Bill Parcells quote, it applied to him... and his players. To coaches and players, it doesn't matter if a team with a worse record would be favored over them because they only care about the bottom line.

Now to anybody who bets on games, the single greatest deceptions are teams who are much better or worse than their record reflects. A pure win loss record doesn't reflect strength of schedule, margin of victory, or the number home games played relative to the number of road games. Its just the mere snapshot at the end of a game which may, or may not truly reflect the relative strengths and weaknesses of a team.

[Stillriledup]

Getting back to the infamous Bill Parcells quote, it applied to him... and his players. To coaches and players, it doesn't matter if a team with a worse record would be favored over them because they only care about the bottom line.

Now to anybody who bets on games, the single greatest deceptions are teams who are much better or worse than their record reflects. A pure win loss record doesn't reflect strength of schedule, margin of victory, or the number home games played relative to the number of road games. Its just the mere snapshot at the end of a game which may, or may not truly reflect the relative strengths and weaknesses of a team.

Was Secretariats record after his first lifetime start an accurate reflection of "who he was"?

good post.