Ben Johnson and Spygate

[Stillriledup]

So, i'm watching this documentary about Ben Johnson and the question i need to ask is this. Johnson was DQ'd THREE days later, his medals taken away and was essentially disgraced. End of story, have a nice day.

Spygate on the other hand, nothing really happened to the cheaters. No Super Bowls were stripped, the NFL really did nothing to "get the truth" and essentially permitted these guys to cheat their way to wins and did nothing about it. Heck, the NCAA strips teams of wins and awards if a player takes an airline ticket, Reggie Bush had to return his Heisman, and yet the NFL did nothing at all when its quite possible the super bowl in 2002 was won by cheating.

I know part of some arguments is that "they all do it" but i want to ask this. Why are we coming down so hard on Ben Johnson, A Rod, Bonds, Lance, Pete Rose and others and yet, here are the Patriots, who obviously cheated in some capacity, not having any of their wins rescinded, no super bowls taken away, it was quietly brushed under the rug and get this, the American sports fan is "ok with" this, we are crushing A Rod and Bonds and a few other star athletes for "cheating" but its ok to cheat in the NFL?

A Rams player filed a 100 M lawsuit and the suit was dismissed because this guy Walsh wouldn't testify.

Is there really much difference between the NFL and Pro Wrestling?

Spygate aside, has any team in the history of the NFL been forced to give up a trophy or have their games stricken from the record for ANY conduct whatsoever? If you don't ever have to worry that your games and wins will be voided and your Super Bowl trophies will be taken away, i find this "Sport" to be more of a form of entertainment than a true sporting contest. True sport takes away Johnsons medals 3 days later...the NFL, an entertainment organization, does nothing of the sort.

[Robert Fischer]

business decisions

[Robert Fischer]

another NFL thing = the way things have become so pass happy...

Are NFL general managers 'overpaying' their defensive players??

You have 8-10 guys throwing 4,000 yards and 30some touchdowns...

Then on Defense we had JJ Watt have a crazy year.
20.5 Sacks 5TDs(2 defensive), 47hurries/qb hits!, 25 tackles for loss!, 10 pass deflections, 3forced fumbles, 5 recovered fumbles, 78tackles, etc.. etc...

and Houston squeaks by Jacksonville to go 9-7 on the year...

Is JJ Watt even a serious MVP candidate? He was probably the best at his position by furthest distance of any position, yet if given a hypothetical average NFL team, and the choice of either a healthy Watt or Rodgers for one year, I think 90% of NFL gms take Rodgers.

A guy would need 30 sacks to impact the games as much as a top Quarterback! :D

And yet... the average NFL team spends just $2,317,699 more on offense than defense.


There are 24 defensive players who make more than $10Million a season, yet half the teams (16) do not spend $10M on their entire QB position.


The packers are interesting in that they spend $15Million more on Defense than Offense, but also have the 4th most expensive QB.

The Steelers have the most expensive QB position and spend $6Million more on Defense.

Interesting pattern there (Elite QB + Spend more on D)


The Broncos on the other hand spend almost 17Million more on OFFENSE and have an elite QB.

lot's of time to waste playing moneyball ...

[PhantomOnTour]

I have a friend who is a big NFL bettor and stat guy.
And by 'stat guy' I mean he is absolutely obsessed with numbers.

His simple formula?
QB + Defense...he weighs those two factors and basically takes the team that rates the best.

[Robert Fischer]

I have a friend who is a big NFL bettor and stat guy.
And by 'stat guy' I mean he is absolutely obsessed with numbers.

His simple formula?
QB + Defense...he weighs those two factors and basically takes the team that rates the best.

Maybe that is one of the winning formulas.

It certainly is not about investing in Running Backs
5 highest RB-spenders:
Vikings, Eagles, Panthers, Chiefs, Bills

You've got the great "Shady" McCoy and "All Day" Adrian Peterson... but you aren't getting much value.

[Robert Fischer]

QBs= overlays
RBs=underlays
DefensiveBacks=help stop the pass??

Salary Equation
(QB-RB + DB)
Steelers
Packers
Giants
Broncos
Cardinals
Cowboys
Patriots
Bengals
Colts

Not a bad top 10 list at all.

Seahawks are the main outlier.

[_______]

another NFL thing = the way things have become so pass happy...

Are NFL general managers 'overpaying' their defensive players??

You have 8-10 guys throwing 4,000 yards and 30some touchdowns...

Then on Defense we had JJ Watt have a crazy year.
20.5 Sacks 5TDs(2 defensive), 47hurries/qb hits!, 25 tackles for loss!, 10 pass deflections, 3forced fumbles, 5 recovered fumbles, 78tackles, etc.. etc...

and Houston squeaks by Jacksonville to go 9-7 on the year...

Is JJ Watt even a serious MVP candidate? He was probably the best at his position by furthest distance of any position, yet if given a hypothetical average NFL team, and the choice of either a healthy Watt or Rodgers for one year, I think 90% of NFL gms take Rodgers.

A guy would need 30 sacks to impact the games as much as a top Quarterback! :D

And yet... the average NFL team spends just $2,317,699 more on offense than defense.


There are 24 defensive players who make more than $10Million a season, yet half the teams (16) do not spend $10M on their entire QB position.


The packers are interesting in that they spend $15Million more on Defense than Offense, but also have the 4th most expensive QB.

The Steelers have the most expensive QB position and spend $6Million more on Defense.

Interesting pattern there (Elite QB + Spend more on D)


The Broncos on the other hand spend almost 17Million more on OFFENSE and have an elite QB.

lot's of time to waste playing moneyball ...

95% of the increase in passing stats has to do with rule changes for player safety that has effectively neutered defenses. The other 5% is the emergence of the pass catching tight end.

There is simply no way to compare stats between eras. Offensive linemen couldn't even extend their arms or open their hands in pass protection before 1978. And they had to defend while getting slapped in the helmet until 1980. You could take a WR out of a play by chucking him out of bounds until 1995. We haven't even touched on roughing, helmet to helmet contact, and hitting "defenseless" receivers.

Defenses are as important as they ever were but expectations have changed. Great modern defenses will get scored on by great modern offenses. It isn't really possible to consistently "stop" even average offenses given the rule changes.

[Stillriledup]

business decisions

If the NFL isn't stripping titles and handing out asterisks like free bagels, aren't you essentially obligated to view the NFL as professional wrestling? Can the NFL have it both ways?

[Robert Fischer]

If the NFL isn't stripping titles and handing out asterisks like free bagels, aren't you essentially obligated to view the NFL as professional wrestling? Can the NFL have it both ways?
In terms of rule-enforcement?
Yes of course.

When a major infraction occurs, some very intelligent people decide upon the best course of action FOR THE LEAGUE, not for the word of the rule, or whatever you seem to be asking. (The rules are not absolute.)

Then they inform commissioner Goodell and he publicly levys the punishment.
And eventually when Goodell retires, the same group of intelligent people will continue to do a superb job of running the league with a new commissioner.

[_______]

The largest fine against an individual the league could levy and the first time ever a team had a first round draft pick taken away and it isn't enough.

It's particularly enlightening to be debating this 7 years after the practice was uncovered. We can see how New England completely fell apart when they didn't have this advantage.

[Stillriledup]

The largest fine against an individual the league could levy and the first time ever a team had a first round draft pick taken away and it isn't enough.

It's particularly enlightening to be debating this 7 years after the practice was uncovered. We can see how New England completely fell apart when they didn't have this advantage.

But that's only if you assume they stopped cheating.

[EMD4ME]

So, i'm watching this documentary about Ben Johnson and the question i need to ask is this. Johnson was DQ'd THREE days later, his medals taken away and was essentially disgraced. End of story, have a nice day.

Spygate on the other hand, nothing really happened to the cheaters. No Super Bowls were stripped, the NFL really did nothing to "get the truth" and essentially permitted these guys to cheat their way to wins and did nothing about it. Heck, the NCAA strips teams of wins and awards if a player takes an airline ticket, Reggie Bush had to return his Heisman, and yet the NFL did nothing at all when its quite possible the super bowl in 2002 was won by cheating.

I know part of some arguments is that "they all do it" but i want to ask this. Why are we coming down so hard on Ben Johnson, A Rod, Bonds, Lance, Pete Rose and others and yet, here are the Patriots, who obviously cheated in some capacity, not having any of their wins rescinded, no super bowls taken away, it was quietly brushed under the rug and get this, the American sports fan is "ok with" this, we are crushing A Rod and Bonds and a few other star athletes for "cheating" but its ok to cheat in the NFL?

A Rams player filed a 100 M lawsuit and the suit was dismissed because this guy Walsh wouldn't testify.

Is there really much difference between the NFL and Pro Wrestling?

Spygate aside, has any team in the history of the NFL been forced to give up a trophy or have their games stricken from the record for ANY conduct whatsoever? If you don't ever have to worry that your games and wins will be voided and your Super Bowl trophies will be taken away, i find this "Sport" to be more of a form of entertainment than a true sporting contest. True sport takes away Johnsons medals 3 days later...the NFL, an entertainment organization, does nothing of the sort.


It's all about the gambling with the NFL. If you reverse a win or a championship, what do the bookies and casinos do? Call back their clients and give them / take their money back? Without the gambling, the NFL would be 20% of the sport that it is. So, any wrong doing on that level is squashed to a certain degree.

[thaskalos]

I have a friend who is a big NFL bettor and stat guy.
And by 'stat guy' I mean he is absolutely obsessed with numbers.

His simple formula?
QB + Defense...he weighs those two factors and basically takes the team that rates the best.
Now...if only we could agree on the best way to measure the effectiveness of the QB and the Defense. :)

[Stillriledup]

It's all about the gambling with the NFL. If you reverse a win or a championship, what do the bookies and casinos do? Call back their clients and give them / take their money back? Without the gambling, the NFL would be 20% of the sport that it is. So, any wrong doing on that level is squashed to a certain degree.

This is an interesting take, the gambling part of their success is so vital, that the league is managed, with accurate injury reports and all, for the bettor. I just think that fans of the NFL who want to believe in the "purity" of this sport can't have that belief unless the sport strikes phony records from the game, takes back trophies and rings and treats players and coaches who cheat as criminals.

[Robert Fischer]

Now...if only we could agree on the best way to measure the effectiveness of the QB and the Defense. :)

IF we say QB effectiveness = QB passer rating

AND Defensive effectiveness = ALLOWED QB passer rating

Then top 5 teams
Team Passer rating - Allowed Passer rating
Green Bay (+27.9)
Dallas (+22.4)
Denver (+19)
Seattle (+14.7)
New England (+13.5)

[Stillriledup]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3226770/Spygate-worse-previously-reported-New-England-Patriots-staff-stealing-playbooks-opposing-teams-Roger-Goodell-helping-cover-up.html