NYRA to Vegas: Pay us double

[Stillriledup]

Looking like the NYRA signal in Vegas (starting on Jan 1) is a longshot at this point. NYRA wants to double the fee from approx 5-6 percent to 10-12 percent.

[Robert Goren]

I would hazard a guess that Vegas is not the only ones.

[grimm7]

It's never ending nonsense for the player. Do they realize they are ruining the game with greed?

[alydar]

Just curious if anyone can provide recent handle numbers, has the drop off continued?

[jballscalls]

I was told a long time ago that vegas charges much more to take the signal than most everyone else. was told by former GM but this was in 2006

[Saratoga_Mike]

Looking like the NYRA signal in Vegas (starting on Jan 1) is a longshot at this point. NYRA wants to double the fee from approx 5-6 percent to 10-12 percent.

Do you have a link for these stats? Thx

[ReplayRandall]

Do you have a link for these stats? Thx

Just happened to have that info, Mike....


http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/betting/battle-over-fees-could-bite-local-horse-players

[Saratoga_Mike]

Just happened to have that info, Mike....


http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/betting/battle-over-fees-could-bite-local-horse-players

Thank you - NYRA (and other tracks) never should have sold their signal at such bargain-basement prices to begin with, to state the obvious

[burnsy]

New "Futures" wager in Vegas:

Which track entity and region receiving the signal will have the next shut down?

Vegas, NYRA even money favorite

Field, 8-5 second choice

[therussmeister]

It's never ending nonsense for the player. Do they realize they are ruining the game with greed?
Are you talking about LV's greed wanting NYRA's signal for only 5-6%, or NYRA's greed wanting 10-12%

Personally, I think 10-12% is about right for a bet taker that is not using simulcast revenue to subsidize live racing purses.

[cj]

Are you talking about LV's greed wanting NYRA's signal for only 5-6%, or NYRA's greed wanting 10-12%

Personally, I think 10-12% is about right for a bet taker that is not using simulcast revenue to subsidize live racing purses.

If you've been getting 5-6%, and business is down, who with any sense would RAISE prices? This goes against everything taught in every business school in the world.

But, this is horse racing...

[JustRalph]

If you've been getting 5-6%, and business is down, who with any sense would RAISE prices? This goes against everything taught in every business school in the world.

But, this is horse racing...

you might even offer a cut........ but

This is horse racing............

[Saratoga_Mike]

If you've been getting 5-6%, and business is down, who with any sense would RAISE prices? This goes against everything taught in every business school in the world.

But, this is horse racing...

I understand exactly where you're coming from, but it's always bothered me that the entity "putting on the show" was paid so little for the effort. In most businesses, the OEM (i.e., the manufacturer/creator of the product) earns a richer margin than the distributor of the product.

[Saratoga_Mike]

you might even offer a cut........ but

This is horse racing............

Let's say NYRA agreed with you and cut the signal price to 2.5% to Vegas casinos. What would the casinos do for their horse book customers?

[cj]

I understand exactly where you're coming from, but it's always bothered me that the entity "putting on the show" was paid so little for the effort. In most businesses, the OEM (i.e., the manufacturer/creator of the product) earns a richer margin than the distributor of the product.

I totally understand what they are trying to do, and I don't disagree the product was priced too low. Of course, racing is the ones that priced it at 3% to begin with so they get a lot of the blame.

It just seems an odd time to try to boost prices given that handle is in the tank. Vegas also isn't really the smartest target, they don't need racing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I totally understand what they are trying to do, and I don't disagree the product was priced too low. Of course, racing is the ones that priced it at 3% to begin with so they get a lot of the blame.

It just seems an odd time to try to boost prices given that handle is in the tank. Vegas also isn't really the smartest target, they don't need racing.

Are ADWs legal in Nevada?

[cj]

Are ADWs legal in Nevada?

No idea.

[Tom]

Lots of tracks out there.
No one needs to be held hostage any one of them.
Just bet another.

Stupid decisions made years ago are not my problem.
Greed today isn't either.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Lots of tracks out there.
No one needs to be held hostage any one of them.
Just bet another.

Stupid decisions made years ago are not my problem.
Greed today isn't either.

Why is it greed? They want a decent return on their employed capital. I say the casinos are greedy - they should pay more for the signal. You, the player, should not be impacted by the casinos' higher costs. For the past 25 years, the signal buyers have earned the fattest part of the margin in the value chain. It doesn't make sense.

[Saratoga_Mike]

There was approximately $10.9 billion wagered on racing in the US in 2013. For the twelve months ended 10/31/14, $53.1 mm was wagered on horse racing in Nevada and $52.8 mm was wagered on basketball.

[Tom]

For the past 25 years, the signal buyers have earned the fattest part of the margin in the value chain. It doesn't make sense.

And I don't really care.
I am the customer - I want to bet races.
Anyone who prevents me from doing that is greedy in my opinion.
And with all the tracks out there, I don't have to care.
When I go out to dinner, I don't care what problems the dishwashers have - I want a good steak and nothing more.

For decades, I have been held hostage on betting this race or that race of this track or that track - I no longer care about ANYONE's problems. The tracks were stupid - tough nuggies. I will never suffer the internal problems of stupid race tracks - there will always be someone else to give me a track to play. THEY are who I am loyal to, for as long they continue to do it. Those that can't get a good deal can close up. Buh bye.

Whatever deals they iron out, the players will get nothing out of them.

[Saratoga_Mike]

And I don't really care.
I am the customer - I want to bet races.
Anyone who prevents me from doing that is greedy in my opinion.
And with all the tracks out there, I don't have to care.
When I go out to dinner, I don't care what problems the dishwashers have - I want a good steak and nothing more.

For decades, I have been held hostage on betting this race or that race of this track or that track - I no longer care about ANYONE's problems. The tracks were stupid - tough nuggies. I will never suffer the internal problems of stupid race tracks - there will always be someone else to give me a track to play. THEY are who I am loyal to, for as long they continue to do it. Those that can't get a good deal can close up. Buh bye.

Whatever deals they iron out, the players will get nothing out of them.

Where do you find all these perfectly run businesses outside of racing? I'm serious - you're always referencing businesses outside of racing, and you always intimate that you get exactly what you want. Maybe you could make a Tom's Preferred List - start with airlines, hotels and restaurants.

[alydar]

While I agree anyone that sells a product should attempt to get as much as possible, I think NYRA may be pushing a little too hard. If you look at the trend at casinos over the last 20 years, they have been backing off of pari-mutuel wagering. In AC only one casino offers it. It is a loser for casinos relative to other games, they can offer. Many keep it to just have a nice portfolio of options. Doubling the fee effectively makes it a breakeven product at best. I think that the trend will continue and you will see more casinos just drop the product all together.

It is fine to squeeze your customers, but if you go too far you may find that you lose it all, and that is the risk that NYRA is taking.

[alydar]

I would be curious to see what the December handle numbers are compared to 2013. It seems to be becoming clear that NYRA is getting very aggressive in their pricing strategy. It will be interesting to see how it is going so far, and how it will go in the coming months. They may be overplaying their hand. Time will tell.

[Stillriledup]

Why is it greed? They want a decent return on their employed capital. I say the casinos are greedy - they should pay more for the signal. You, the player, should not be impacted by the casinos' higher costs. For the past 25 years, the signal buyers have earned the fattest part of the margin in the value chain. It doesn't make sense.

Its a hard argument to make that they're NOT greedy asking the fee to be doubled overnight.

[thaskalos]

Why is it greed? They want a decent return on their employed capital. I say the casinos are greedy - they should pay more for the signal. You, the player, should not be impacted by the casinos' higher costs. For the past 25 years, the signal buyers have earned the fattest part of the margin in the value chain. It doesn't make sense.

If the Nevada casinos stop offering the NYRA's races, who loses out...the casinos, or the NYRA? Isn't 6% better than 0%? Whose idea was it to undersell the signal in the first place?

In business, everything else is secondary to learning how to properly price the products or services that you are selling. If you don't know how to price your products, then you won't remain in business for long...and the argument can be made that you didn't belong in business to begin with.

A true businessman knows the intrinsic value of his product in the marketplace, otherwise he doesn't deserve the name.

[horses4courses]

If the Nevada casinos stop offering the NYRA's races, who loses out...the casinos, or the NYRA? Isn't 6% better than 0%? Whose idea was it to undersell the signal in the first place?

In business, everything else is secondary to learning how to properly price the products or services that you are selling. If you don't know how to price your products, then you won't remain in business for long...and the argument can be made that you didn't belong in business to begin with.

A true businessman knows the intrinsic value of his product in the marketplace, otherwise he doesn't deserve the name.

Thask, I hate to point this out but it's reaching the point where
Nevada casinos could care less about race signals altogether.

5-10 years ago I wouldn't have said that, and certainly not just
over 20 years ago when pari-mutuel wagering came to Nevada.

Sports wagering is a much more valuable marketing tool.
They don't make all that much money from it, but it attracts
the under-30s like a magnet. Their books wouldn't skip a
beat if they stopped taking horse wagers tomorrow.

It pains me to say that, too. :ThmbDown:

[horses4courses]

Are ADWs legal in Nevada?

Nope

[thaskalos]

Thask, I hate to point this out but it's reaching the point where
Nevada casinos could care less about race signals altogether.

5-10 years ago I wouldn't have said that, and certainly not just
over 20 years ago when pari-mutuel wagering came to Nevada.

Sports wagering is a much more valuable marketing tool.
They don't make all that much money from it, but it attracts
the under-30s like a magnet. Their books wouldn't skip a
beat if they stopped taking horse wagers tomorrow.

It pains me to say that, too. :ThmbDown:
It has long been reported that racing lags far behind the other gambling games in Vegas, as far as betting interest is concerned...and that's what makes the timing of this increase so questionable. The NYRA isn't exactly bargaining from a position of strength in this case.

[horses4courses]

It has long been reported that racing lags far behind the other gambling games in Vegas, as far as betting interest is concerned...and that's what makes the timing of this increase so questionable. The NYRA isn't exactly bargaining from a position of strength in this case.

No, they are not.

As long as Nevada keeps taking horse wagers -
and they will for the foreseeable future,
they will definitely want the NYRA product.
They will work out a deal before too long.
Could there come a day when the plug
is pulled? It's more likely than it used to be.

On a side note, glad to see that Patty Jones
still heads the Nevada Pari-Mutuel Assoc.
Very nice woman who has been in plenty
of battles with the tracks over the years.

[JustRalph]

Let's say NYRA agreed with you and cut the signal price to 2.5% to Vegas casinos. What would the casinos do for their horse book customers?

Completely different subject. Not relevent to this discussion.

Of course they would do nothing :jump: :bang:

But that's a different issue. When you are losing revenue, and your product is in decline, raising prices is a sure way to the poor house.

But........

[Stillriledup]

Why is it greed? They want a decent return on their employed capital. I say the casinos are greedy - they should pay more for the signal. You, the player, should not be impacted by the casinos' higher costs. For the past 25 years, the signal buyers have earned the fattest part of the margin in the value chain. It doesn't make sense.

Vegas gives comps on horse bets, the player would be impacted.

[SandyW]

Are ADWs legal in Nevada?

NO !!

[Rex Phinney]

I spend a lot of time in Vegas. I assure you the only sport they give two craps about is football. It makes them all their money.

If you are selling anything but football and asking for more $$$ out of the casino pocket you better be prepared for the casino to cut the cord.

[Robert Goren]

Are you talking about LV's greed wanting NYRA's signal for only 5-6%, or NYRA's greed wanting 10-12%

Personally, I think 10-12% is about right for a bet taker that is not using simulcast revenue to subsidize live racing purses.Give me a break! 10-12% is too high for even the suckers who bet at the track with no rebate of any kind. 5-6% may be the optimal takeout rate to generate the most revenue. But, alas, we will never know, because the tracks and the horsemen will never ever try it. They would rather go out of business than try attract gamblers to the game. The only thing keeping racing alive is online betting and the OTBs/simulcast centers and now they seem intent on killing them off. Horse racing seems intent on committing suicide and this move is yet another sleeping pill mixed with gin.

[Tom]

Where do you find all these perfectly run businesses outside of racing? I'm serious - you're always referencing businesses outside of racing, and you always intimate that you get exactly what you want. Maybe you could make a Tom's Preferred List - start with airlines, hotels and restaurants.
Your post makes no sense, other than being a A****** reply.
I made no references to any perfect businesses - I used a diner as an example of having the same expectations I do of a race track.

Try to work on your reading comprehension before you work on being clever.

[JustRalph]

There are no perfect businesses. but there are some that run very very well and are famous for taking care of their customers and providing a great product

[grimm7]

Any successful business wants their product to reach as many customers as possible. Withholding signals doesn't accomplish this. Racing would rather have nothing instead of something.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Your post makes no sense, other than being a A****** reply.
I made no references to any perfect businesses - I used a diner as an example of having the same expectations I do of a race track.

Try to work on your reading comprehension before you work on being clever.

You really are a petulant child at times; it's a shame b/c you're obviously a very smart guy. Someone disagrees with you, though, and you go off on emotional and/or ad hominem rants. No offense, but I think know as much or more about running a business than you. And I said you "intimate" other businesses are run perfectly. Re-read my post. In any case, I enjoy your knee-jerk/visceral reactions - very entertaining.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Completely different subject. Not relevent to this discussion.

Of course they would do nothing :jump: :bang:

But that's a different issue. When you are losing revenue, and your product is in decline, raising prices is a sure way to the poor house.

But........

Depends on the lifecycle of the business. The vast, vast majority of the time I agree with your statement, of course.

My point is relevant, though, imo. I want the OEM (producer of the product) to capture the most value. I want the distributor to capture the least value. I'm not making radical suggestions or anything that is inconsistent with classic micro-economic analysis. No one on this board is allowed to side with the tracks, it seems (postings are allowed of course; that isn't the point). Tracks are viewed as inherently bad, and ADWs/other distributors are viewed as inherently good. To me, those views are incorrect.

In the mid to late 80s as simulcast started to take hold, the tracks underpriced their product. I think most agree with that statement. Many posters say, "tough, they were stupid." No, they didn't correctly see into the future. Honestly in 1985, who would have predicted many tracks would produce 90% of their revenue off-track? Not many. Many want the tracks to live with this incorrect prediction forever. I say no. I say the ADWs/simulcast outlets extract too much value. They should absorb higher fees; they should not pass along the higher fees to customers.

[Tom]

And I said you "intimate" other businesses are run perfectly.

No I did not say this. Learn to read.
I compare two situations, not businesses.

[Saratoga_Mike]

No I did not say this. Learn to read.
I compare two situations, not businesses.

Intimate - implied. Anyway, let's not argue over that point. If it makes you happy, I'll say you didn't imply anything and I'm an idiot.

I just think the tracks underpriced their signal about 30 yrs ago (see my response to Ralph). Should the tracks have to live with that bad decision forever? Other businesses misprice their goods and services and make adjustments.

[classhandicapper]

It sounds like a lot of this is just posturing.

Without seeing everyone's books, it's hard to know the price where both sides can make an adequate and fair return on their investment (assuming there is one).

Generally though, I don't see how it can be a good idea to ask for more from anyone when your product is losing market share to other forms of gambling. It's kind of like when politicians raise taxes to balance the budget when the economy is in the crapper. That's a bad idea. You ask for more when you are in a position of strength and can easily absorb any potential downside from taking more. I think racing needs to focus on expanding the pie, not figuring out how to get a bigger piece of a shrinking one.

[Dave Schwartz]

Are ADWs legal in Nevada?

There are two that will take NV residents that I am aware of.

Anyone interested in knowing which two should email (not message) me privately.

[thaskalos]

Depends on the lifecycle of the business. The vast, vast majority of the time I agree with your statement, of course.

My point is relevant, though, imo. I want the OEM (producer of the product) to capture the most value. I want the distributor to capture the least value. I'm not making radical suggestions or anything that is inconsistent with classic micro-economic analysis. No one on this board is allowed to side with the tracks, it seems (postings are allowed of course; that isn't the point). Tracks are viewed as inherently bad, and ADWs/other distributors are viewed as inherently good. To me, those views are incorrect.

In the mid to late 80s as simulcast started to take hold, the tracks underpriced their product. I think most agree with that statement. Many posters say, "tough, they were stupid." No, they didn't correctly see into the future. Honestly in 1985, who would have predicted many tracks would produce 90% of their revenue off-track? Not many. Many want the tracks to live with this incorrect prediction forever. I say no. I say the ADWs/simulcast outlets extract too much value. They should absorb higher fees; they should not pass along the higher fees to customers.

The ADW issue and the Las Vegas issue are two separate things, Mike. The tracks are right when they go after the ADWs for their fair share...because the ADWs are taking money out of the track's pocket. If I choose to wager with an ADW instead of heading out to the track...then the track is LOSING MONEY. But Las Vegas is catering to a group of bettors who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing ceased to exist there. There in no "negative" side to selling the track signal to Nevada...because the track only GAINS by doing so. If you don't sell the signal there, then you just lose the customers...plain and simple. Withholding your signal will not entice anyone in Las Vegas to wager on your races in any other way.

Raise your price slightly if you feel that you are undercharging...but don't get ridiculous and end up shooting yourself in the foot.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The ADW issue and the Las Vegas issue are two separate things, Mike. The tracks are right when they go after the ADWs for their fair share...because the ADWs are taking money out of the track's pocket. If I choose to wager with an ADW instead of heading out to the track...then the track is LOSING MONEY. But Las Vegas is catering to a group of bettors who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing ceased to exist there. There in no "negative" side to selling the track signal to Nevada...because the track only GAINS by doing so. If you don't sell the signal there, then you just lose the customers...plain and simple. Withholding your signal will not entice anyone in Las Vegas to wager on your races in any other way.

Raise your price slightly if you feel that you are undercharging...but don't get ridiculous and end up shooting yourself in the foot.

Why do you make the above statement? Are you saying most racebook players stumble in from playing table games or slots? How do you know this? I have no idea. It's an important point if true.

[Dave Schwartz]

But Las Vegas is catering to a group of bettors who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing ceased to exist there.

I would have to disagree with that. In fact, I would say it is just the opposite: maybe 85-90% of racebook players are everyday horse players. Years ago, many actually moved to Las Vegas just (or mostly) to bet horses.

[thaskalos]

Why do you make the above statement? Are you saying most racebook players stumble in from playing table games or slots? How do you know this? I have no idea. It's an important point if true.

The racebook patron has only one way to bet the horses...and that's through the racebook. If there is no race signal...then the racebook patron doesn't bet, PERIOD. By withholding the signal...you are not trying to entice the racebook patron to come to your track and bet live, so you can make the lion's share of the profit. You are just leaving him out in the cold...and you are costing yourself money in the process.

6% is a lot better than 0%.

[thaskalos]

I would have to disagree with that. In fact, I would say it is just the opposite: maybe 85-90% of racebook players are everyday horse players. Years ago, many actually moved to Las Vegas just (or mostly) to bet horses.

That's not what I meant, Dave. Read my post after that.

[RXB]

6% is a lot better than 0%.

But 10% is a lot better than 6%. And if the 0% is just the short-term pain for the long-term 10%, it's a no-brainer.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The racebook patron has only one way to bet the horses...and that's through the racebook. If there is no race signal...then the racebook patron doesn't bet, PERIOD. By withholding the signal...you are not trying to entice the racebook patron to come to your track and bet live, so you can make the lion's share of the profit. You are just leaving him out in the cold...and you are costing yourself money in the process.

6% is a lot better than 0%.

Without ADWs, I can't argue your point. The casinos have a monopoly on racing action. That should bother you.

[traynor]

This is one of those situations in which it seems (to a casual observer) that some may know less than it seems about the situation they (attempt to) describe. How many actually bet in Las Vegas? How many actually bet regularly in Las Vegas? I know Dave understands what is going on, but some comments seem more based on conjecture than first-hand knowledge.

[thaskalos]

But 10% is a lot better than 6%. And if the 0% is just the short-term pain for the long-term 10%, it's a no-brainer.

And if you can't get the 10%...what do you do then? Stick to your demands and lose a "sure thing"? This is free money that the tracks are getting from those Nevada racebooks. The only reason that the casinos continue to offer racing there is because they like the idea of a one-stop gambling spot. The game could go away tomorrow in Vegas...and no one would miss it.

The NYRA is overplaying its hand there...if you ask me.

[Saratoga_Mike]

This is one of those situations in which it seems (to a casual observer) that some may know less than it seems about the situation they (attempt to) describe. How many actually bet in Las Vegas? How many actually bet regularly in Las Vegas? I know Dave understands what is going on, but some comments seem more based on conjecture than first-hand knowledge.

I look forward to your insights on the matter?

[thaskalos]

Without ADWs, I can't argue your point. The casinos have a monopoly on racing action. That should bother you.

It should bother RACING...not me. If the signal goes out in Nevada...then it's going to be the NYRA who is going to lose money -- not me.

[Saratoga_Mike]

And if you can't get the 10%...what do you do then? Stick to your demands and lose a "sure thing"? This is free money that the tracks are getting from those Nevada racebooks. The only reason that the casinos continue to offer racing there is because they like the idea of a one-stop gambling spot. The game could go away tomorrow in Vegas...and no one would miss it.

The NYRA is overplaying its hand there...if you ask me.

The casinos are in an enviable position b/c of a monopoly granted by the state (this assumes Dave S's estimates on handle generated from locals is correct), not b/c of anything else.

[thaskalos]

This is one of those situations in which it seems (to a casual observer) that some may know less than it seems about the situation they (attempt to) describe. How many actually bet in Las Vegas? How many actually bet regularly in Las Vegas? I know Dave understands what is going on, but some comments seem more based on conjecture than first-hand knowledge.

The typical, crystal-clear, Traynor posting. He says exactly what's on his mind.

[Saratoga_Mike]

It should bother RACING...not me. If the signal goes out in Nevada...then it's going to be the NYRA who is going to lose money -- not me.

I support free markets. The fact that ADWs aren't legal in NV is outrageous. As you've outlined, it gives too much negotiating power to the casinos. NYRA and CD should sue the state (along with several others) based on the Commerce Clause.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The typical, crystal-clear, Trainor posting. He says exactly what's on his mind.

Cleared everything up for me, too.

[thaskalos]

I support free markets. The fact that ADWs aren't legal in NV is outrageous. As you've outlined, it gives too much negotiating power to the casinos. NYRA and CD should sue the state (along with several others) based on the Commerce Clause.

Nevada is a state like no other. Around the time that John Kennedy was shot...the dealers in Nevada were fighting a battle in the courts with the IRS over some tax issue concerning the dealers' tips. The headline on the front page of the Las Vegas Sun the day after the Kennedy shooting read, in large letters:

"DEALERS WIN LANDMARK CASE AGAINST THE IRS"...while in a remote corner of the page, in much smaller print, it stated..."John Kennedy shot...Lyndon Johnson new prez."

[SandyW]

But 10% is a lot better than 6%. And if the 0% is just the short-term pain for the long-term 10%, it's a no-brainer.

There is not one chance in a million that Nevada will pay anywhere near 10% to greedy NYRA.
The race books will house book every signal long before agreeing to these outrageous demands.
The one thing that these tracks seem not to understand is that Nevada casinos don't need race books and would just put more slot machines in a smaller sports book to make up for any lost of revenue from racing.
These race tracks are playing with the big boys when they threaten casinos that will only be pushed so far.
Casinos will give up any part of their revenue and make it up somewhere else if they can't continue to give top notch customer service to any of their patrons.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Legalize ADWs in NV, then let the casinos shutdown their race books. But would the greedy casino lobby allow ADWs in the state? Given the casinos are the good guys, I'm sure they would lobby to change the state's laws regarding ADWs.

[SandyW]

Legalize ADWs in NV, then let the casinos shutdown their race books. But would the greedy casino lobby allow ADWs in the state? Given the casinos are the good guys, I'm sure they would lobby to change the state's laws regarding ADWs.

I don't think that there is any chance that the casino lobby will let there be any change in the no outside the state ADWs law any time in the near or far future.

[Tom]

Should the tracks have to live with that bad decision forever? Other businesses misprice their goods and services and make adjustments.

They be able to whatever they can to get more money for their signals - short of dissing their customer by denying them the ability to bet their races.
If they can't do that, they do not deserve the increase.
Customers come first.

[Robert Fischer]

myopic incompetence

[ronsmac]

I support free markets. The fact that ADWs aren't legal in NV is outrageous. As you've outlined, it gives too much negotiating power to the casinos. NYRA and CD should sue the state (along with several others) based on the Commerce Clause.
If they win that suit, then NY should be sued for the source market fees they charge other adws .

[Dave Schwartz]

This is really a great thread for discussing this stuff.


I know Dave understands what is going on, but some comments seem more based on conjecture than first-hand knowledge.

They are VERY ADMITTEDLY based upon conjecture; my opinion of the situation and experience from what I gathered (again, admittedly, years ago) that the racebook margins were well under 5% after expenses.


That's not what I meant, Dave. Read my post after that.

Thask,

Did not mean to offensively disagree, only disagree. However, if I have misunderstood please, explain as I do not understand.



Without ADWs, I can't argue your point. The casinos have a monopoly on racing action. That should bother you.

Mike,

I can tell you that it bothers me, but then, the entire gaming industry bothers me. Everything from how the employees are treated, to the low taxe revenue they contribute. (How is it possible that NV cannot be #1 in the country in casino tax revenue?)

Note: In fairness, re: treatment of employees - that is from my personal experience which is (I am glad to say) 25 years in my past. Although I still have friends in gaming who say that things have not changed much.


The casinos are in an enviable position b/c of a monopoly granted by the state (this assumes Dave S's estimates on handle generated from locals is correct), not b/c of anything else.

Not handle but business model. Think of it this way... if they are receiving 11-12% commission, certainly "gross profit" must far less than 6%. Not with labor costs, simulcast fees, gaming licenses, and keeping the lights on, etc. If 12% becomes 6% then there is no profit and probably loss.

But, of course, your point is well-taken: monopolies never work out well for the customer.


Nevada is a state like no other. Around the time that John Kennedy was shot...the dealers in Nevada were fighting a battle in the courts with the IRS over some tax issue concerning the dealers' tips. The headline on the front page of the Las Vegas Sun the day after the Kennedy shooting read, in large letters:

"DEALERS WIN LANDMARK CASE AGAINST THE IRS"...while in a remote corner of the page, in much smaller print, it stated..."John Kennedy shot...Lyndon Johnson new prez."

LOL - Seriously, thou doest speaketh the truth, Thask. Nothing like it.

I recall a Reno newspaper front page from a couple of decades ago where the big headline was about a California man winning a $200k jackpot on a penny machine at Harold's Club. It was like there was just no news in the world that was as important as that! LOL


Legalize ADWs in NV, then let the casinos shutdown their race books. But would the greedy casino lobby allow ADWs in the state? Given the casinos are the good guys, I'm sure they would lobby to change the state's laws regarding ADWs.

As I have deduced (perhaps incorrectly; always open to that) in the last few months, despite laws to the contrary being approved, the casino industry is pretty much in agreement that online casinos (or any other form of gambling online) are just "bad for business." The gaming lobby is working hard to squash that.

[thaskalos]

Thask,

Did not mean to offensively disagree, only disagree. However, if I have misunderstood please, explain as I do not understand.



Both you and Saratoga Mike have misunderstood what I said, so the fault must be mine for not phrasing my point correctly. When I said that Vegas caters to a group of horseplayers who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing wasn't offered there...I didn't mean to imply that those players weren't serious, everyday bettors. What I meant was that those players have no other choice but to bet through the sportbooks...so they would be left out in the cold if the racing signal is withheld from the Nevada racebooks. These players don't have the option of wagering using a different method of play, like the rest of the country is able to.

When the AWDs stopped taking wagers from Illinois bettors last January, due to some kind of "political oversight"...the Illinois horseplayers still had the option of wagering at the state tracks and the OTBs. The Nevada horseplayers are entirely dependent on the racebooks for their horserace wagering...and they would stop betting altogether if the racing signal is withheld from the racebooks there.

With the current agreement, the NYRA gets 6% of money that would NEVER be wagered if the agreement didn't exist. This money that the NYRA gets is FREE MONEY, that would otherwise be bet on another sport or casino game. If the signal is withheld from the Nevada casinos, then this income source dries up for good...and the only loser in this scenario will be the NYRA. 6% is a lot better than 0%.

[Dave Schwartz]

I didn't mean to imply that those players weren't serious, everyday bettors. What I meant was that those players have no other choice but to bet through the sportbooks...so they would be left out in the cold if the racing signal is withheld from the Nevada racebooks. These players don't have the option of wagering using a different method of play, like the rest of the country is able to.

Thask,

You are correct. I missed your point completely.

:ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Both you and Saratoga Mike have misunderstood what I said, so the fault must be mine for not phrasing my point correctly. When I said that Vegas caters to a group of horseplayers who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing wasn't offered there...I didn't mean to imply that those players weren't serious, everyday bettors. What I meant was that those players have no other choice but to bet through the sportbooks...so they would be left out in the cold if the racing signal is withheld from the Nevada racebooks. These players don't have the option of wagering using a different method of play, like the rest of the country is able to.

When the AWDs stopped taking wagers from Illinois bettors last January, due to some kind of "political oversight"...the Illinois horseplayers still had the option of wagering at the state tracks and the OTBs. The Nevada horseplayers are entirely dependent on the racebooks for their horserace wagering...and they would stop betting altogether if the racing signal is withheld from the racebooks there.

With the current agreement, the NYRA gets 6% of money that would NEVER be wagered if the agreement didn't exist. This money that the NYRA gets is FREE MONEY, that would otherwise be bet on another sport or casino game. If the signal is withheld from the Nevada casinos, then this income source dries up for good...and the only loser in this scenario will be the NYRA. 6% is a lot better than 0%.

I knew what you meant. 100% in agreement. Anything they make from Vegas casinos is "found money".

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Smart move from NYRA to ask for 12%

They now need to do the same with all ADWs that take their signal

[Stillriledup]

Smart move from NYRA to ask for 12%

They now need to do the same with all ADWs that take their signal

We will see how smart it looks as the days dwindle into January and they're losing daily handle from Vegas that they won't be being bet into their pools in other ways. Its money lost forever.

Vegas might accept a small raise, maybe like a quarter point or half point tops, but they're not getting anything close to double, especially since this is no skin of Vegases nose. In fact, Vegas might actually MAKE money by not taking the NYRA signal because people will be betting Parx and higher takeout tracks instead. Vegas has no reason to make a deal like this.

[EMD4ME]

Aren't there players who moved to Vegas from NY just for the insane rebates that a casino gave them (Paul Cornman for one, I believe) ? If Vegas takes this hit, the big player's rebates drop and there goes the big player's handle on NYRA races.

The source Market fee and these signal increases are each track focusing on eating a bigger piece of the small pie and NOT focusing on getting a bigger pie.

STUPID

[dirty moose]

Does nyra think Vegas will do anything but laugh at them?

[classhandicapper]

When I said that Vegas caters to a group of horseplayers who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing wasn't offered there...I didn't mean to imply that those players weren't serious, everyday bettors. What I meant was that those players have no other choice but to bet through the sportbooks...so they would be left out in the cold if the racing signal is withheld from the Nevada racebooks. These players don't have the option of wagering using a different method of play, like the rest of the country is able to.



I agree with your major point, but I don't think 100% of that Vegas revenue would be lost to NYRA.

I've heard of a few full time horses players that moved to Vegas to play horses. If they were cut off, I assume they'd have to move back to NY, CA, or wherever they originally came from so they could continue playing.

[Stillriledup]

I agree with your major point, but I don't think 100% of that Vegas revenue would be lost to NYRA.

I've heard of a few full time horses players that moved to Vegas to play horses. If they were cut off, I assume they'd have to move back to NY, CA, or wherever they originally came from so they could continue playing.

The 64 dollar question is what percent of the dollars bet on Aqu in Vegas would find their way into the pools anyway and in what WAY would they find their way there?

If you're a Vegas resident and don't have an ADW account and the only way you can bet is to bet via the racebook, none of their money is going to find its way to NYRA. If you're a tourist who's in vegas once in a while, you're not going to care one way or the other as the money you bet when you're in the race book is just going to be on the tracks they're showing.

Doesn't seem like too many dollars are going to find their way onto NYRA races and if those dollars do find their way, a high percentage of the small amount of dollars aren't going to find their way to the actual live track, its going to be another ADW who is also paying NYRA 5/6 percent.

It would be in NYRA's best interest to get reasonable and settle this thing today or tomorrow because the longer they wait, the more money they cost themselves. Waiting isn't going to get them 2 or 3 more percent, they're only getting a small raise, if any, they may as well just ask for a 1/4 point raise and be done with it.

[thaskalos]

I agree with your major point, but I don't think 100% of that Vegas revenue would be lost to NYRA.

I've heard of a few full time horses players that moved to Vegas to play horses. If they were cut off, I assume they'd have to move back to NY, CA, or wherever they originally came from so they could continue playing.
Yes...but those full-time players moved to Vegas during the pre-simulcast days...to take advantage of the plethora of racing action that Vegas was the first to offer. Alas...the vast majority of them ended up driving taxicabs for a living (not that I have anything against cab drivers).

Today...whatever a professional horseplayer can find in Vegas, he can just as easily find someplace else.

[classhandicapper]

In the end I think there's going to be an agreement that both sides can live with. I have no idea what's going at NYRA or in Vegas, but negotiations usually end up with reasonable compromises.

[SandyW]

In the end I think there's going to be an agreement that both sides can live with. I have no idea what's going at NYRA or in Vegas, but negotiations usually end up with reasonable compromises.

This time it may be different because the politicians and Gov. are now running the NYRA show.
I don't think they are lovers of race tracks. Racinos yes, horse racing, who cares.

[alydar]

I am curious if the decline in handle that was discussed here earlier is still happening. If it is, I think there is connection between these higher signal fee demands and the lower handle. If in fact NYRA is demanding a 10-12% fee from Nevada, which to me seems almost unbelievable, I suspect there will be at least a period where Nevada will not take the signal. I would like to see what that does to the handle numbers.

If the handle numbers are in fact still way down, this seems to be a flawed strategy on NYRA's part.A bigger slice of a smaller pie may in the end be a smaller piece.

[RXB]

In the end I think there's going to be an agreement that both sides can live with. I have no idea what's going at NYRA or in Vegas, but negotiations usually end up with reasonable compromises.

I agree. Highball/lowball tactics are common in negotiations. Usually they meet somewhere in the middle.

[Dave Schwartz]

If you're a Vegas resident and don't have an ADW account and the only way you can bet is to bet via the racebook, none of their money is going to find its way to NYRA. If you're a tourist who's in vegas once in a while, you're not going to care one way or the other as the money you bet when you're in the race book is just going to be on the tracks they're showing.

Why would you say that?

Are you under the impression that the LV books are not parimutuel?

[Stillriledup]

Why would you say that?

Are you under the impression that the LV books are not parimutuel?

No, i know they're all parimutuel, sans the house Qs that get booked, the reason i say this is because under what process can a vegas bettor, who bets in the racebook, get his money into NYRA if Vegas doesn't take the signal?

They are going to need an ADW, but if they're betting in the racebook to begin with, i'm going to assume they don't have one. Can Nevada residents even GET an outside ADW to bet?

Tell me how these displaced NYRA bettors who bet in casino's are going to "Get down" on NYRA? I don't see it.

[Some_One]

Does NYRA really need Vegas? Any chance of long term survival of NY racing depends on getting more of the 20 million people who live within 100km of NYC to a NYRA track.

[Dave Schwartz]

Oh, now I understand. I must have my dense-ometer turned up to high these days.

LOL

Thanks.

[alydar]

Does NYRA really need Vegas? Any chance of long term survival of NY racing depends on getting more of the 20 million people who live within 100km of NYC to a NYRA track.

You are correct that the most profitable customer is one that goes to the track. A good marketing campaign is certainly worth a try. According to 2013 numbers 62% of the handle came from out of state, but only 36%, which was only 36% of total revenue. However, in the world we live in today tracks live and die through simulcast wagering. NYRA is obviously trying to improve the contribution of out of state handle. Just not sure how much more they can get from existing markets. I would think that international expansion offers some potential.

[castaway01]

Does NYRA really need Vegas? Any chance of long term survival of NY racing depends on getting more of the 20 million people who live within 100km of NYC to a NYRA track.

Since everyone else is speculating, I'm speculating that this is exactly true and NYRA is trying to make a stand with a big name (Vegas) which is a very, very small part of their handle. Get Vegas casinos to take the 12% and you set a precedent you can use in other negotiations; get turned down and even if they stop taking your signal it's virtually no financial loss.

[ronsmac]

Since everyone else is speculating, I'm speculating that this is exactly true and NYRA is trying to make a stand with a big name (Vegas) which is a very, very small part of their handle. Get Vegas casinos to take the 12% and you set a precedent you can use in other negotiations; get turned down and even if they stop taking your signal it's virtually no financial loss.That's why I hope Nevada says no. This will lead to more and more raises in signal prices.

[ReplayRandall]

NYRA is starting to stink like CDI, beached whales leaving the pools every day. As far as Vegas is concerned, good luck holding back nationalized on-line poker, football, basketball, baseball and NASCAR wagering. The Point-man ushering in the change will be NBA Commish Adam Silver. You'll see many casino owners/Corps. jump ship, going over to the other side, and the first will be Steve Wynn......

[Some_One]

You are correct that the most profitable customer is one that goes to the track. A good marketing campaign is certainly worth a try. According to 2013 numbers 62% of the handle came from out of state, but only 36%, which was only 36% of total revenue. However, in the world we live in today tracks live and die through simulcast wagering. NYRA is obviously trying to improve the contribution of out of state handle. Just not sure how much more they can get from existing markets. I would think that international expansion offers some potential.

Tracks that depends on off track wagering have zero chance for long term survival.

[Stillriledup]

Since everyone else is speculating, I'm speculating that this is exactly true and NYRA is trying to make a stand with a big name (Vegas) which is a very, very small part of their handle. Get Vegas casinos to take the 12% and you set a precedent you can use in other negotiations; get turned down and even if they stop taking your signal it's virtually no financial loss.

This is exactly right. If tracks keep screaming "12%, 12%" at some point, it won't seem as unreasonable as it does now.

[Stillriledup]

That's why I hope Nevada says no. This will lead to more and more raises in signal prices.

No doubt. If Vegas caves, its bad for everyone else and will eventually bad for the player, they'll be next in line to get squeezed.

[ReplayRandall]

No doubt. If Vegas caves, its bad for everyone else and will eventually bad for the player, they'll be next in line to get squeezed.

The powers that be in Vegas laugh at the NYRA rate hike and will give them the boot, just like they would any small-time punk. Who do you think runs Las Vegas anyway? This is going to be hilarious, as the NYRA will have nothing left but to beg William Hill to take their signal........:bang: :lol:

[Stillriledup]

The powers that be in Vegas laugh at the NYRA rate hike and will give them the boot, just like they would any small-time punk. Who do you think runs Las Vegas anyway? This is going to be hilarious, as the NYRA will have nothing left but to beg William Hill to take their signal........:bang: :lol:

I think them asking for double is a punk move. But, that's just me.

Hopefully you're right.

[mamaluke]

I went to the "Big A" Friday December 26th
Haven't been there in over 10 years
What a shock
I went to the clubhouse third floor and entered the Equestris
There was a sign that the buffet was $57 during the week and $61 on weekends
Here are some of the other prices I saw and why people do not attend

Cup ofCoffee $4.50
Small bottle of water $4.50
Hamburger $11.95- one slice of cheese extra $3
Three pieces of chicken $14.95
Some of the 50 to 70 people there had brought their own lunches and coffee
Went to the Casino to poke around and prices were the same
I did not see anyone getting free water or cocktails so not sure if they give them comp
Now in Las Vegas horse rooms every player is offered at least free water and coffee unless things are different now
If Vegas can do this on the small percentage of take why cant NYRA have prices that do not insult the customer
It is as if NYRA does not want fans there and punishes those that do attend the races

[EMD4ME]

I went to the "Big A" Friday December 26th
Haven't been there in over 10 years
What a shock
I went to the clubhouse third floor and entered the Equestris
There was a sign that the buffet was $57 during the week and $61 on weekends
Here are some of the other prices I saw and why people do not attend

Cup ofCoffee $4.50
Small bottle of water $4.50
Hamburger $11.95- one slice of cheese extra $3
Three pieces of chicken $14.95
Some of the 50 to 70 people there had brought their own lunches and coffee
Went to the Casino to poke around and prices were the same
I did not see anyone getting free water or cocktails so not sure if they give them comp
Now in Las Vegas horse rooms every player is offered at least free water and coffee unless things are different now
If Vegas can do this on the small percentage of take why cant NYRA have prices that do not insult the customer
It is as if NYRA does not want fans there and punishes those that do attend the races

As a NYRA regular, I hear your pain however, it is not NYRA's 100% doing. They receive a commission from the evil partner and the evil partner is in control of concessions. You want to blame someone, blame Genting. If I had to eat at the track, my pocket would starve. It's crazy. Up in the VIP players lounge, we all order from outside the track and have the food delivered from a local eatery. Where else could you see that happen at a sporting event lol

[ReplayRandall]

I went to the "Big A" Friday December 26th
Haven't been there in over 10 years
What a shock
I went to the clubhouse third floor and entered the Equestris
There was a sign that the buffet was $57 during the week and $61 on weekends
Here are some of the other prices I saw and why people do not attend

Cup ofCoffee $4.50
Small bottle of water $4.50
Hamburger $11.95- one slice of cheese extra $3
Three pieces of chicken $14.95
Some of the 50 to 70 people there had brought their own lunches and coffee
Went to the Casino to poke around and prices were the same
I did not see anyone getting free water or cocktails so not sure if they give them comp
Now in Las Vegas horse rooms every player is offered at least free water and coffee unless things are different now
If Vegas can do this on the small percentage of take why cant NYRA have prices that do not insult the customer
It is as if NYRA does not want fans there and punishes those that do attend the races

Thank you for your post Mamaluke, it says it all.......BTW, there's that CUP OF COFFEE FOR $4.50 AGAIN! What a moronic joke, indefensible and simply beyond asinine....

[Stillriledup]

Thank you for your post Mamaluke, it says it all.......BTW, there's that CUP OF COFFEE FOR $4.50 AGAIN! What a moronic joke, indefensible and simply beyond asinine....

4.50 for coffee, oh my. Its cheaper to fly to Columbia, pick your own beans and fly back.

[Tom]

You used buffet and $57 in the same sentence????? :confused:
That is a season ticket to it, right?

[Stillriledup]

You used buffet and $57 in the same sentence????? :confused:
That is a season ticket to it, right?
Yes, that buffet they have for 57 is called the "Warren Buffet" .

You have to be as rich as WB to afford it.

[ReplayRandall]

You used buffet and $57 in the same sentence????? :confused:
That is a season ticket to it, right?
From the NYRA website:


The Equestris Restaurant

Currently, our famous buffet is open available on Saturdays and Sundays for $29.95/person (including tax) and $17.99/child three to twelve years of age. Soda, Coffee and Tea are included in the buffet.

There is a break from Live Racing from December 15th to December 25th in which the Equestris will be closed to the public.

December 31st: Equestris Closed
January 1st: Special Buffet Featured for $84/person
January 2nd: Buffet Featured for $57/person
Going forth in the new year, Equestris will still be open on Saturday and Sunday. The price of the buffet will be $61/person.

[Dave Schwartz]

Holy crap! For $57 do you get crab and lobster?

[RXB]

Crab & lobster is the $84 job on New Year's. You get deep-fried prawns on the $57 days.

I remember when Ron Kittle was in his early halcyon years with the White Sox, 30+ years ago, and they asked him what was the biggest disappointment of his rookie season. He said it was having to pay $20 for an omelette in New York.

[Some_One]

I went to the "Big A" Friday December 26th
Haven't been there in over 10 years
What a shock
I went to the clubhouse third floor and entered the Equestris
There was a sign that the buffet was $57 during the week and $61 on weekends
Here are some of the other prices I saw and why people do not attend

Cup ofCoffee $4.50
Small bottle of water $4.50
Hamburger $11.95- one slice of cheese extra $3
Three pieces of chicken $14.95
Some of the 50 to 70 people there had brought their own lunches and coffee
Went to the Casino to poke around and prices were the same
I did not see anyone getting free water or cocktails so not sure if they give them comp
Now in Las Vegas horse rooms every player is offered at least free water and coffee unless things are different now
If Vegas can do this on the small percentage of take why cant NYRA have prices that do not insult the customer
It is as if NYRA does not want fans there and punishes those that do attend the races

I've had people berate me because my primary wagering is done through Betfair (and Pinnacle when it was around years ago), people say that I'm not compensating the track for the show they put on, well the reason they charge those amount of prices for food is the profits of wagering doesn't compensate the track enough for the show they put on. That's why people, who we would sterotype of degen gamblers, two dollars everyday punters, are no good for the track. If our betting was enough for the track, 95% of the tracks in North America wouldn't be dependent on slots/instant racing to survive as is the case today.

[the little guy]

I've had people berate me because my primary wagering is done through Betfair (and Pinnacle when it was around years ago), people say that I'm not compensating the track for the show they put on, well the reason they charge those amount of prices for food is the profits of wagering doesn't compensate the track enough for the show they put on. That's why people, who we would sterotype of degen gamblers, two dollars everyday punters, are no good for the track. If our betting was enough for the track, 95% of the tracks in North America wouldn't be dependent on slots/instant racing to survive as is the case today.

Out of curiosity, how is it that EMD4ME explained that NYRA doesn't set the prices for food ( this has also been explained numerous times on this board ), yet you and three other posters, immediately after his post, have completely ignored this?

I hope it's not because you all have him on ignore. That wouldn't be nice. He's a very nice guy.

[Stillriledup]

Out of curiosity, how is it that EMD4ME explained that NYRA doesn't set the prices for food ( this has also been explained numerous times on this board ), yet you and three other posters, immediately after his post, have completely ignored this?

I hope it's not because you all have him on ignore. That wouldn't be nice. He's a very nice guy.

Its similar to a head coach or manager getting blamed for losses when the blame really lies with the GM for not acquiring players good enough to win in the first place.

Sometimes blame and credit are misassigned. If the state of NY lowered takeout for example, NYRA would get the credit for being horseplayer friendly, doing right by the game, etc. people wouldn't be crediting the state. So, it works both ways on occasion.

[thaskalos]

Out of curiosity, how is it that EMD4ME explained that NYRA doesn't set the prices for food ( this has also been explained numerous times on this board ), yet you and three other posters, immediately after his post, have completely ignored this?

I hope it's not because you all have him on ignore. That wouldn't be nice. He's a very nice guy.
Is EMD4ME a "very nice guy", all the time...or just occasionally? :)

[Tom]

Understand NYRA doesn't set the prices, but I do not understand a $57 buffet. I thought it was a an exaggeration for emphasis!:eek:

Note to self - bring a baloney sammy.

[davew]

I am pretty sure 30 years ago Nevada was just a book, paying the same as they pay the football, basketball, other sports events. When they went pari-mutual, they no longer had to put maximums on pay-offs or worry about pools manipulated at small pool tracks.

They also got people betting big tickets on Pick 6's, Pick 4's, Pick 3's and other exotics that bettors were reluctant to bet. The books rules were you got track pay-offs, and sometimes the bettor would have had taken the entire track pool, and did not get it.

I suspect the Nevada operators like the parimutual model better because they no longer have to limit bets taken on horses/combinations nor do they have to worry about negative/losing races by 'smart money' getting laid off in Nevada where it did not affect the pools. The northern CA circuit hit Reno ?4 hr drive? and the southern CA circuit hit Las Vegas ?6 hr drive?

Since the track take-outs have risen with more exotics, the cost of the feed probably should raise as well. Whether this needs to come all at once, or gradually over a few years is up to the negotiators.

[Cholly]

I am pretty sure 30 years ago Nevada was just a book, paying the same as they pay the football, basketball, other sports events. When they went pari-mutual, they no longer had to put maximums on pay-offs or worry about pools manipulated at small pool tracks.
I forget which casino it was, but those were the days when one Sports Book Manager said, "I'll start taking bets on professional wrestling before I'll accept any action on Golden Gate Fields"

[Tall One]

Note to self - bring a baloney sammy.



P.S. Don't forget to bring the cheese...:ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

P.S. Don't forget to bring the cheese...:ThmbUp:

Bring some extra......they're getting 3 bucks a slice .... :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

Is EMD4ME a "very nice guy", all the time...or just occasionally? :)

Please :blush: , respectfully, leave me out of the controversy Thaskalos ! lol

I'm just tickled we now have complimentary coffee :jump: :jump: :jump: , seriously.

[thaskalos]

Please :blush: , respectfully, leave me out of the controversy Thaskalos ! lol

I'm just tickled we now have complimentary coffee :jump: :jump: :jump: , seriously.

No controversy...I'm just kidding around.

I have already been told that you are a really nice guy...and I think the same of TLG. A healthy and joyous New Year to both of you. :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

No controversy...I'm just kidding around.

I have already been told that you are a really nice guy...and I think the same of TLG. A healthy and joyous New Year to both of you. :ThmbUp:

I know you were kidding pal. Healthy and prosperous one to you too pal. Be well!

[PaceAdvantage]

Understand NYRA doesn't set the prices, but I do not understand a $57 buffet. I thought it was a an exaggeration for emphasis!:eek:

Note to self - bring a baloney sammy.Somebody is paying those prices, or else they wouldn't be able to charge those prices and remain viable.

[dirty moose]

Is the food any good?

[JustRalph]

Somebody is paying those prices, or else they wouldn't be able to charge those prices and remain viable.

I would love to hear how many a day are paying that price? Anybody on this board? Chime in.....and was it any good?

I don't flinch paying $57 bucks a head for dinner. But it better be pretty damn good for lunch at the track

[SandyW]

I would love to hear how many a day are paying that price? Anybody on this board? Chime in.....and was it any good?

I don't flinch paying $57 bucks a head for dinner. But it better be pretty damn good for lunch at the track

Come to Las Vegas, some of our lunch buffets are around the $10 mark at the casinos frequented by the locals. Big variety and good food.

[Stillriledup]

Somebody is paying those prices, or else they wouldn't be able to charge those prices and remain viable.

The Yankees charge 8 billion for seats behind home plate, and there's never anyone sitting in them, so, the supply and demand market isn't always in harmony.

I guess the main question is this. Is the price they're charging creating optimal profit? They're either charging not enough, too much or the exact amount.

Also, maybe the goal isn't to sell as many "dinners" as possible?

[EMD4ME]

The Yankees charge 8 billion for seats behind home plate, and there's never anyone sitting in them, so, the supply and demand market isn't always in harmony.

I guess the main question is this. Is the price they're charging creating optimal profit? They're either charging not enough, too much or the exact amount.

Also, maybe the goal isn't to sell as many "dinners" as possible?

Great point

Great point

What do you mean by the last point?

[Stillriledup]

Great point

Great point

What do you mean by the last point?

I know in grocery (Gus's specialty) there's something called a loss leader, which means you price an item lower than its optimal price point for reasons other than selling as many items as possible. I was just thinking there maybe something that's essentially opposite of a loss leader and you price an item MORE than its worth. Not sure why they would do that, maybe Gus has some theories.

[Tom]

I bitch about $3.00 hot dogs at Finger Lakes!

[EMD4ME]

I bitch about $3.00 hot dogs at Finger Lakes!

The horses you bet? :D or we bet ? :D

[EMD4ME]

I know in grocery (Gus's specialty) there's something called a loss leader, which means you price an item lower than its optimal price point for reasons other than selling as many items as possible. I was just thinking there maybe something that's essentially opposite of a loss leader and you price an item MORE than its worth. Not sure why they would do that, maybe Gus has some theories.

Maybe to shoo away the remaining decent people who visit the NYRA tracks?

Doubt that's the case....

I think it's because Mr. Toys r us has absolutely no clue wtf he's doing and thinks the people in attendance are there for an event, like people who attend the stupid bowl, oops, super bowl. Hence, will pay anything.

He doesn't realize 95% of your on track attendance is repeat and I mean repeat and I mean repeat and I mean repeat clientele.

[Stillriledup]

Maybe to shoo away the remaining decent people who visit the NYRA tracks?

Doubt that's the case....

I think it's because Mr. Toys r us has absolutely no clue wtf he's doing and thinks the people in attendance are there for an event, like people who attend the stupid bowl, oops, super bowl. Hence, will pay anything.

He doesn't realize 95% of your on track attendance is repeat and I mean repeat and I mean repeat and I mean repeat clientele.

Its a good question.

[BlueShoe]

Understand NYRA doesn't set the prices, but I do not understand a $57 buffet. I thought it was a an exaggeration for emphasis!:eek:

Note to self - bring a baloney sammy. In California you could not do this. State law forbids outside food or drinks being brought in. A couple of guys I know have tried and have gotten in major beefs over this. Good friend got kicked out when he threw a punch at a a track security guard when informed that he had to toss away his McDs awful burgers, fries, and coffee.

[Stillriledup]

In California you could not do this. State law forbids outside food or drinks being brought in. A couple of guys I know have tried and have gotten in major beefs over this. Good friend got kicked out when he threw a punch at a a track security guard when informed that he had to toss away his McDs awful burgers, fries, and coffee.

No coolers on big days for the infield?

[Tom]

The horses you bet? :D or we bet ? :D

I always buy one early in the card.
Got one after the feature one day.....whip marks on it! :eek:

[EMD4ME]

I always buy one early in the card.
Got one after the feature one day.....whip marks on it! :eek:

Doubt they were on the left hand side!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Most pin heads are right handed and dont use their brain when riding, hence no left hand whip lmao :lol:

[Robert Goren]

Very few places that sell food will let you bring your own food or drink. It is a liability matter. It only seems to be problem for some people at sporting events. Try bring in your own booze at bar sometime and see what happens. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[davew]

I know in grocery (Gus's specialty) there's something called a loss leader, which means you price an item lower than its optimal price point for reasons other than selling as many items as possible. I was just thinking there maybe something that's essentially opposite of a loss leader and you price an item MORE than its worth. Not sure why they would do that, maybe Gus has some theories.


Seating space, food prep area size, serving area size, specialty food availability, .....

[Dave Schwartz]

In California you could not do this. State law forbids outside food or drinks being brought in. A couple of guys I know have tried and have gotten in major beefs over this. Good friend got kicked out when he threw a punch at a a track security guard when informed that he had to toss away his McDs awful burgers, fries, and coffee.

Didn't they used to allow picnics in the Santa Anita infield or am I remembering wrong?

[traynor]

I think the complaints about high meal costs are from those who don't get out much. At most restaurants in Tokyo, Paris, or (especially) Oslo, the price of a NYRA buffet would be considered meager as a tip, much less as the price for dinner. A typical price for a bowl of ramen noodles (yes, ramen noodles) from a street vendor in Tokyo is $10--and that is considered cheap. A dinner for four with a little sake can easily run over $1000.

If it is good food, it's worth the price. There are MANY restaurants in New York that are much more expensive, and that definitely do not provide meals commensurate with their prices. Not many complain--they consider it economical Darwinism in action. Those who fancy they are "doing well" are only those who stay close to home and hoard their hoards. Pay the prices and sharpen your handicapping pencils a bit to compensate. It keeps the economy moving in the right direction.

[Robert Goren]

If you go to a race track to eat then you have no business being there. I expect overpriced coffee, soda and beer because you always overcharged in any closed environment whether it be a sporting event or movie theater. You are at the track to make money not to spend it. If you feel you need a drink while there expect to pay through the nose. Eat before you go or after you leave. You can get better and cheaper food else where.

[Canarsie]

Somebody is paying those prices, or else they wouldn't be able to charge those prices and remain viable.

Since they have complete control of food and it's pricing at the Big A and the casino it becomes a no brainer. Their customers would bitch and moan if it was priced lower right next door. I have no idea if Genting is allowed to comp but if they are question answered.

Even if they gave customers half off (if allowed as a comp) it becomes reasonable to the public. Like previously stated it's supply and demand a company like Genting isn't a novice when it comes down to an issue like this.

[davew]

If you go to a race track to eat then you have no business being there. I expect overpriced coffee, soda and beer because you always overcharged in any closed environment whether it be a sporting event or movie theater. You are at the track to make money not to spend it. If you feel you need a drink while there expect to pay through the nose. Eat before you go or after you leave. You can get better and cheaper food else where.

That is why we go to the track. Some people go to the track to see their horse(s) run and hopefully get into the winner circle. I suspect most racehorse owners have more discretionary income and willing to pay $70 for a meal.

[lamboguy]

the cost of the buffet is the least of our problems as horse player's. the main problem i have is finding winner's.

happy New Year to all the horse players throughout the world, i hope you all have many winners and even more good times

[grimm7]

No agreement was reached between Vegas and NYRA but they agreed to continue showing signal while negotiations continue. Sensiable solution and good for the player! See how easy it is Monarch and Mid-Atlantic Coop. Angering and frustrating on the player is not the solution.

[Stillriledup]

No agreement was reached between Vegas and NYRA but they agreed to continue showing signal while negotiations continue. Sensiable solution and good for the player! See how easy it is Monarch and Mid-Atlantic Coop. Angering and frustrating on the player is not the solution.

So Aqu will be on the big screens around racebooks in Vegas?

[Cratos]

I think the complaints about high meal costs are from those who don't get out much. At most restaurants in Tokyo, Paris, or (especially) Oslo, the price of a NYRA buffet would be considered meager as a tip, much less as the price for dinner. A typical price for a bowl of ramen noodles (yes, ramen noodles) from a street vendor in Tokyo is $10--and that is considered cheap. A dinner for four with a little sake can easily run over $1000.

If it is good food, it's worth the price. There are MANY restaurants in New York that are much more expensive, and that definitely do not provide meals commensurate with their prices. Not many complain--they consider it economical Darwinism in action. Those who fancy they are "doing well" are only those who stay close to home and hoard their hoards. Pay the prices and sharpen your handicapping pencils a bit to compensate. It keeps the economy moving in the right direction.
You make excellent points and is not horse racing called "the sport of kings"?

[cj]

I think the complaints about high meal costs are from those who don't get out much. At most restaurants in Tokyo, Paris, or (especially) Oslo, ...

Could you possibly be any more pretentious?

[thaskalos]

Could you possibly be any more pretentious?
What...you don't spend over $1,000 on dinner for four? :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

Could you possibly be any more pretentious?

Be patient

[SandyW]

I think the complaints about high meal costs are from those who don't get out much. At most restaurants in Tokyo, Paris, or (especially) Oslo, the price of a NYRA buffet would be considered meager as a tip, much less as the price for dinner. A typical price for a bowl of ramen noodles (yes, ramen noodles) from a street vendor in Tokyo is $10--and that is considered cheap. A dinner for four with a little sake can easily run over $1000.


This is what runaway inflation looks like.

[Tom]

What...you don't spend over $1,000 on dinner for four? :)

I wouldn't even buy them all a cup of Joe for $18! :lol:

[NTamm1215]

No agreement was reached between Vegas and NYRA but they agreed to continue showing signal while negotiations continue. Sensiable solution and good for the player! See how easy it is Monarch and Mid-Atlantic Coop. Angering and frustrating on the player is not the solution.

Noticed that. Great quote from Phil O'Hara in this story: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/89384/simulcast-fee-dispute-enters-second-month

[cj]

Noticed that. Great quote from Phil O'Hara in this story: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/89384/simulcast-fee-dispute-enters-second-month

"We've continued to speak weekly but have made little progress," Phil O'Hara, administrator for the MidAtlantic Cooperative, said Jan. 1.

[grimm7]

Funny! Like to know what they talk about? Monarch asking for 20%. Is there a middle ground? This could go on forever? What a mess!

[Saratoga_Mike]

If Monarch is charging 5% for their signal now, they want 6%. To me, that's reasonable. They put on the show. Let the distributor (Midatlantic cartel) eat the higher fees.

[Stillriledup]

Funny! Like to know what they talk about? Monarch asking for 20%. Is there a middle ground? This could go on forever? What a mess!

I wouldn't budge to Monarch because if you budge, they will just keep raising prices as the weeks, months and years go on.....better off now just learning to live without their tracks on your menu. Forget they exist and move on.

[grimm7]

Article says Monarch want 20%. That not fair. No one is going to pay that amount.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I wouldn't budge to Monarch because if you budge, they will just keep raising prices as the weeks, months and years go on.....better off now just learning to live without their tracks on your menu. Forget they exist and move on.

Why side with the Midatlantic cartel? You automatically assume (in every case) that higher fees must come out of the bettors' pockets. No, let the distributors eat the higher fees.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Article says Monarch want 20%. That not fair. No one is going to pay that amount.

It's isn't 20%. It's a 20% increase. If it's 5% now, it would go to 6%.

[Stillriledup]

Why side with the Midatlantic cartel? You automatically assume (in every case) that higher fees must come out of the bettors' pockets. No, let the distributors eat the higher fees.

Its not siding with anyone, its a "stronach fade", i'd be on the other side no matter who they were.

[whodoyoulike]

I think the complaints about high meal costs are from those who don't get out much. At most restaurants in Tokyo, Paris, or (especially) Oslo, the price of a NYRA buffet would be considered meager as a tip, much less as the price for dinner. A typical price for a bowl of ramen noodles (yes, ramen noodles) from a street vendor in Tokyo is $10--and that is considered cheap. A dinner for four with a little sake can easily run over $1000.

If it is good food, it's worth the price. There are MANY restaurants in New York that are much more expensive, and that definitely do not provide meals commensurate with their prices. Not many complain--they consider it economical Darwinism in action. Those who fancy they are "doing well" are only those who stay close to home and hoard their hoards. Pay the prices and sharpen your handicapping pencils a bit to compensate. It keeps the economy moving in the right direction.

I believe people are willing to pay those prices is because of the ambiance experience.

What's the ambiance like at NY tracks or any track?

[whodoyoulike]

Could you possibly be any more pretentious?

Just when I think he can't, he ends up surprising me.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

What's the ambiance like at NY tracks or any track?

AQU watch your wallet and surroundings....

BEL better, yet dated

SAR....i love saratoga, what great atmosphere. Whether on a Wednesday afternoon or on Travers day what great atmosphere.

[JustRalph]

I think the complaints about high meal costs are from those who don't get out much. At most restaurants in Tokyo, Paris, or (especially) Oslo, the price of a NYRA buffet would be considered meager as a tip, much less as the price for dinner. A typical price for a bowl of ramen noodles (yes, ramen noodles) from a street vendor in Tokyo is $10--and that is considered cheap. A dinner for four with a little sake can easily run over $1000.

If it is good food, it's worth the price. There are MANY restaurants in New York that are much more expensive, and that definitely do not provide meals commensurate with their prices. Not many complain--they consider it economical Darwinism in action. Those who fancy they are "doing well" are only those who stay close to home and hoard their hoards. Pay the prices and sharpen your handicapping pencils a bit to compensate. It keeps the economy moving in the right direction.

Wow........ ! How much is a gallon of jet fuel for your private ride?

[whodoyoulike]

AQU watch your wallet and surroundings....

BEL better, yet dated

SAR....i love saratoga, what great atmosphere. Whether on a Wednesday afternoon or on Travers day what great atmosphere.

What I meant was, how much of the $57 buffet meal would you assign to ambiance of the meal and/or surroundings? If $0 then the meal had better be fantastic, if $56 then the restaurant setting and/or service had better be worth it.

Btw, I do understand what you're saying.

[dirty moose]

You're being kind to both AQ and Belmont. I do love Belmont but it's a dump.

[Tom]

Wow........ ! How much is a gallon of jet fuel for your private ride?

I think he relies more on the wind in his sails. ;)

[Dave Schwartz]

I think the complaints about high meal costs are from those who don't get out much. At most restaurants in Tokyo, Paris, or (especially) Oslo...

LOL - I have just the opposite problem. I live in Reno. We have (perhaps) the cheapest reasonably good food in the country.

The most expensive place in town is around $45 for filet mignon. (No, I do not mean the most expensive I have been to.)

[RXB]

I think he relies more on the wind in his sails. ;)

More like a hot air balloon.

[traynor]

LOL - I have just the opposite problem. I live in Reno. We have (perhaps) the cheapest reasonably good food in the country.

The most expensive place in town is around $45 for filet mignon. (No, I do not mean the most expensive I have been to.)

I don't mind spending money if I get something worthwhile in exchange. I seriously object to a process common in this part of country (especially among the Yuppie IT crowd and MBA students) of considering any trip to a local sushi palace wasted unless it costs more than $150 or so a head with more (often much more) considered better. The amusing thing is that many could be eating catfish or shark and not know the difference. Their sense of value is a marketer's dream come true--if it costs more, it must be better.

At that price, I can have lunch at Bellagio's--plane fare included. As long as there are places like Reno and Las Vegas, there is still hope for the world.

[PaceAdvantage]

Signals to stay on:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/betting/no-agreement-place-race-books-stay-open

[Tom]

Horse racing considers the customers....... :faint:

[thespaah]

Tracks that depends on off track wagering have zero chance for long term survival.
HUH?.....I would like someone to produce handle figures on any North American track where on track handle exceeds off track handle.

[thespaah]

Could you possibly be any more pretentious?
I asked myself the same general question.
The OP is comparing prices for upscale/fine dining in cities that have costs of living comparable to NYC.
However, Equestris is NOT fine dining or upscale.
It's an apples to oranges comparison.

[thespaah]

I don't mind spending money if I get something worthwhile in exchange. I seriously object to a process common in this part of country (especially among the Yuppie IT crowd and MBA students) of considering any trip to a local sushi palace wasted unless it costs more than $150 or so a head with more (often much more) considered better. The amusing thing is that many could be eating catfish or shark and not know the difference. Their sense of value is a marketer's dream come true--if it costs more, it must be better.

At that price, I can have lunch at Bellagio's--plane fare included. As long as there are places like Reno and Las Vegas, there is still hope for the world.
I cannot stand these pretentious pricks who look down on others who try to economize.
I remember the upstart of the yuppie movement. These nouveau riche jerks would look down their noses at those who paid for their restaurant meals with cash or the "wrong" credit card.
:mad:

[traynor]

I cannot stand these pretentious pricks who look down on others who try to economize.
I remember the upstart of the yuppie movement. These nouveau riche jerks would look down their noses at those who paid for their restaurant meals with cash or the "wrong" credit card.
:mad:

The same mindset exists in betting. Those who wager hundreds a race believe themselves in some way "superior" to those who bet 10s and 20s. They--in turn--are considered irrelevant dilettantes by those who wager thousands on the turn of a card--50 times or so an hour.

"Conspicuous consumption" and the trappings of an "affluent lifestyle" are facts of life, but not necessarily as impressive to others as they are to those doing the displays in the hope of impressing someone that they are "better" in some way. They are not. That's why they stick close to home, doing the same old same old day after day, year after year. Fear that a new crowd in a new place may not find them as impressive or important as they believe themselves to be.

[alydar]

HUH?.....I would like someone to produce handle figures on any North American track where on track handle exceeds off track handle.

Agreed

[thespaah]

The same mindset exists in betting. Those who wager hundreds a race believe themselves in some way "superior" to those who bet 10s and 20s. They--in turn--are considered irrelevant dilettantes by those who wager thousands on the turn of a card--50 times or so an hour.

"Conspicuous consumption" and the trappings of an "affluent lifestyle" are facts of life, but not necessarily as impressive to others as they are to those doing the displays in the hope of impressing someone that they are "better" in some way. They are not. That's why they stick close to home, doing the same old same old day after day, year after year. Fear that a new crowd in a new place may not find them as impressive or important as they believe themselves to be.
Well said...I experienced the 80's in all of its nonsense. Watching as 'new money' people found it necessary to flash their cash in public in a most pretentious and annoying manner.
I've always thought that achievement and success are things to be accepted in a quiet manner.
I once heard a quote in a movie that went something like this
"Class?...Class is when one achieves success he does not cheer loudly. When one experiences disappointment, they do not cry loudly"...
It's the difference between winning a bet with a quiet fist pump and the loud guffaw of one who thinks everyone should acknowledge his good fortune.

[ReplayRandall]

"Class?...Class is when one achieves success he does not cheer loudly. When one experiences disappointment, they do not cry loudly"...
It's the difference between winning a bet with a quiet fist pump and the loud guffaw of one who thinks everyone should acknowledge his good fortune.

Sounds terribly "British" to me......We are AMERICANS after all....:cool:

[traynor]

Sounds terribly "British" to me......We are AMERICANS after all....:cool:

Indeed. For those familiar with such doings, the "Birkenhead drill" is considered the epitome of courage. And a behavioral pattern many willingly (and quite unpretentiously) strive to emulate. It is the antithesis of the philosophies of the "Me generation" and those who believe themselves somehow at the center of the universe, and their lives (and petty doings, pleasures, pains, "successes." and failures) of paramount importance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Birkenhead_(1845)

[ReplayRandall]

Indeed. For those familiar with such doings, the "Birkenhead drill" is considered the epitome of courage. And a behavioral pattern many willingly (and quite unpretentiously) strive to emulate. It is the antithesis of the philosophies of the "Me generation" and those who believe themselves somehow at the center of the universe, and their lives (and petty doings, pleasures, pains, "successes." and failures) of paramount importance.


When you read my post Traynor, think of Teddy Roosevelt and the way he viewed those who were neither hot nor cold, but the hated lukewarm of nothingness......