Jocks and instructions from trainers/owners

[Stillriledup]

Watching the new episode of Stable Wars, Scott Kaplan from Great Friends Stable was "giving instructions" to Tyler Baze.....they weren't really specific instructions other than to save some ground (which should be obvious). So, It didnt' appear that tyler saved one inch of ground and then got off the horse and was really mad that some owner "dared" tell him what to do and there was an 'exchange' of words between Scott and Tyler. (not sure if they played it up for the show, but Tyler seemed genuinely mad). Now, i know its a tv show, but i have to imagine this happens in real life and i know from my own experience that giving jocks instructions is almost a "no no" especially top jocks.

I thought this was pretty funny thinking back to EDM's thread in the handicapping section about bad rides, jocks make SO many mistakes and yet, there they are, getting highly offended if anyone dare tell them some "Strategy".

Are jocks right to get offended if an owner is telling them what to do, or does the owner have a right to put in his 2 cents and the jock should just shut up and say thank you for the mount and do what he's told?

[Hambletonian]

Dude, have you ever given dog racing a try?

You really think being a jockey is easy? Have you ever ridden a horse, even at a dude ranch? You have a 110 pound human perched atop 1100 pounds of animal, an animal which is seemingly comprised of 1097 pounds of pure instinct and 3 pounds of brain matter, and you complain endlessly on how things don't always work out. Add nine or ten other horses, all with their own plans, and it can really be surprising when a race works out in real life like it was supposed to on paper.

Each race is a dynamic entity, and few jockeys know every mount inside and out. Crud happens.

Do some jockeys have a bad attitude? Sure, just like some trainers, owners and handicappers. But jockeys have the toughest job at the track, and literally risk their lives every time they get a leg up. I would cut the some slack in general, and treat them with a little more respect.

[biggestal99]

An owner telling a jock what to do.
Lol

I can,t blame the jock at all

Owners should know their place

Allan

[Stillriledup]

An owner telling a jock what to do.
Lol

I can,t blame the jock at all

Owners should know their place

Allan

The owner is the boss and the jock is the employee, is the bosses "place" to just do whatever the employee says? :jump:

[chadk66]

An owner telling a jock what to do was the end of the road for me getting out of the training business. I had thought about giving it up until my kids were grown up because I didn't want to raise them in the barn. I was stabled in MN and one weekend I took a horse to Chicago to run and had a two year old that was making his third start back in MN. My wife was there taking care of the barn in MN. The rider of the two year old had ridden him his previous two starts and breezed him numerous times. He was stretching out to a mile and it wasn't a question of if he was going to win but by how far. He was just begging to go a distance. Could run all day. His race was on a sat. My chicago horse was in for sunday. So we run this two year old and the jock opens up like ten lengths on the field up the back side. Well needless to say he gets beat a nose at the wire and runs second. That night the owner flies to chicago. The minute she gets off the plane she is in my face for telling the jockey to open up ten on the field. I was flabbergasted. The jock and I had the discussion before I left. He was to use his best judgement because running a two year old around two turns for the first time never goes as planned anyway. Well I was so pissed she would even think that I would tell a jockey to do that I plain and simply told her to stuff it and find a new trainer because in two weeks I was packing my crap and calling it quits. When I got back to MN I talked to the jock to see what the deal was. He said when he was in the paddock the owner and her husband were both telling him what to do and both had their own idea on how it should be. So basically he got pissed and showed em who was boss lol. So that is essentially what the catalyst was for me to throw in the towel. Although I had been really contemplating it. I sincerely miss the horses but I don't miss the seven days a week, eighteen hours a day bit. Nor do I miss dealing with the majority of the owners I had. I had some amazing owners and some not so much. They all want a professional trainer but too few will consider being professional owners.

[chadk66]

The owner is the boss and the jock is the employee, is the bosses "place" to just do whatever the employee says? :jump:not really. it appears that's how it should be but the reality of the matter is the jock doesn't look at it that way. not on a large scale anyway. If your a jock your going to listen to the trainer not the owner because you know the trainer is the guy who puts you on the other horses in the barn. Unless your some super big owner with tons of horses. but that's not the norm. Now, the owner through the trainer can tell a jock how he wants his horse ridden. But those orders need to come from the trainer to the jock. Or it's a recipe for disaster.

[Stillriledup]

not really. it appears that's how it should be but the reality of the matter is the jock doesn't look at it that way. not on a large scale anyway. If your a jock your going to listen to the trainer not the owner because you know the trainer is the guy who puts you on the other horses in the barn. Unless your some super big owner with tons of horses. but that's not the norm. Now, the owner through the trainer can tell a jock how he wants his horse ridden. But those orders need to come from the trainer to the jock. Or it's a recipe for disaster.

I know this to be true, at least from my experience, the owner can't tell the jock what to do and its even hard for the trainer to tell the jock anything, especially if the jock feels that the instructions are coming from the owner.

Jocks are really sensitive to getting instructions, and some owners are sensitive at not being able to GIVE instructions. Tricky dynamic for sure.

[lamboguy]

the only instructions i ever gave a rider was for him to ride the horse like he owned him.

the real good riders study the pace of the race ahead of time and guess the way its going to turn out. they also have an idea who the horse is that they think can beat him is and he will either try to pin him on the rail or carry him out wide if he gets his chance to do that.

[Ruffian1]

When a perspective owner asked me how much I charged per day and I knew that the owner was that type of owner, I would tell them that if I train them it's one price but if you train them , it's double that price.:D

[castaway01]

I know this to be true, at least from my experience, the owner can't tell the jock what to do and its even hard for the trainer to tell the jock anything, especially if the jock feels that the instructions are coming from the owner.

Jocks are really sensitive to getting instructions, and some owners are sensitive at not being able to GIVE instructions. Tricky dynamic for sure.

You've mentioned "from your experience" several times in this thread. What exactly is your experience as an owner giving jockeys riding instructions?

[EMD4ME]

Dude, have you ever given dog racing a try?

You really think being a jockey is easy? Have you ever ridden a horse, even at a dude ranch? You have a 110 pound human perched atop 1100 pounds of animal, an animal which is seemingly comprised of 1097 pounds of pure instinct and 3 pounds of brain matter, and you complain endlessly on how things don't always work out. Add nine or ten other horses, all with their own plans, and it can really be surprising when a race works out in real life like it was supposed to on paper.

Each race is a dynamic entity, and few jockeys know every mount inside and out. Crud happens.

Do some jockeys have a bad attitude? Sure, just like some trainers, owners and handicappers. But jockeys have the toughest job at the track, and literally risk their lives every time they get a leg up. I would cut the some slack in general, and treat them with a little more respect.

I'm not disagreeing with you, it can be very hard to control a situation. A situation being an 1100 pound animal with a 3 pound brain amongst 8 others.

However, the great jockeys, (I can only name 2 in the last decade) made it look like they were playing gallop racer and toyed with their pin head brain mental midget peers.

I actually hate jocks who need instructions. 1) there are many variables and if you carry out your instructions at any cost, you might not leverage the chaotic change in events that can happen in a nanosecond at the gate break. 2) they are simply not intelligent enough to carry them out. 3) if there isn't buy in from a human, they don't carry out the task as well as if it's their own idea.

I'll never forget the hundreds and I mean hundreds of times that I watched Ramón take advantage of an unexpected situation because he 1) had studied the form for his race 2) knew exactly how the track was playing 3) he knew who was breaking from where and WHY that mattered 4) he watched thousands of replays to prepare for his mounts.

How could his horse ALWAYS look calm, unrank, fluid in stride & how could he always look prepared for the unexpected but alllllllllll these other 'big name' pinheads consistently be exposed for their ineptitude by having the opposite happen???

Information for the jock is vital (the horse hates the rail, the horse hates a left hand whip, the horse has only an 1/8 of a mile burst-time it well etc.)

Full instructions are stupid. Why? 1) because if you have to tell the pinhead what to do from gate to wire, they obviously are unprepared and you're doomed and 2) see above about unexpected changes/chaos/variables.

[EMD4ME]

the only instructions i ever gave a rider was for him to ride the horse like he owned him.

the real good riders study the pace of the race ahead of time and guess the way its going to turn out. they also have an idea who the horse is that they think can beat him is and he will either try to pin him on the rail or carry him out wide if he gets his chance to do that.

Great point. I'll never forget being at Penn in the paddock when they were building the new and hideous grandstand in 2007 or 2008. I loved the rail horse in a turf route. Jock shows up, trainer says : ride him like you own him, when you hit the lead, RIDE HIM LIKE YOU STOLE HIM.

I was betting him anyway. I unloaded. Paid 9.00 bucks.

Great advice by the trainer. Kept it simple and you could tell from his words, the intent to go was there.

[EMD4ME]

I know this to be true, at least from my experience, the owner can't tell the jock what to do and its even hard for the trainer to tell the jock anything, especially if the jock feels that the instructions are coming from the owner.

Jocks are really sensitive to getting instructions, and some owners are sensitive at not being able to GIVE instructions. Tricky dynamic for sure.

I can't speak for all NYRA jocks but there is one specific veteran pinhead who despite what he is told to do, always does things his way, which is choke the horse down till the poor thing can't breathe. Shoot your load 4-5 wide in the next to last quarter as the dynamics are against you (for example slow first & second quarter with no flow, next to last quarter is fast and last quarter is fast so no closers have a shot). Spin your wheels in the latter part of a boat race and waste a good run with little to no purse money. Can't tell you how many times his trainer wants to put a hammer to his head for not listening and always does things his way.

Ironic thing is these guys are all soooooo bad, there equal incompetency allows them to each have decent winning (or should I say 'win by accident') percentages. Hard to convince him the trainer's advice is better as he'll shout back: I'm winning at 18%!

How f'n ironic is that..... :bang: :bang: :bang:

[EMD4ME]

Watching the new episode of Stable Wars, Scott Kaplan from Great Friends Stable was "giving instructions" to Tyler Baze.....they weren't really specific instructions other than to save some ground (which should be obvious). So, It didnt' appear that tyler saved one inch of ground and then got off the horse and was really mad that some owner "dared" tell him what to do and there was an 'exchange' of words between Scott and Tyler. (not sure if they played it up for the show, but Tyler seemed genuinely mad). Now, i know its a tv show, but i have to imagine this happens in real life and i know from my own experience that giving jocks instructions is almost a "no no" especially top jocks.

I thought this was pretty funny thinking back to EDM's thread in the handicapping section about bad rides, jocks make SO many mistakes and yet, there they are, getting highly offended if anyone dare tell them some "Strategy".

Are jocks right to get offended if an owner is telling them what to do, or does the owner have a right to put in his 2 cents and the jock should just shut up and say thank you for the mount and do what he's told?

You KNOW how to rile me up SRU, don't you???? :D :D :D

[ReplayRandall]

I can't speak for all NYRA jocks but there is one specific veteran pinhead who despite what he is told to do, always does things his way, which is choke the horse down till the poor thing can't breathe. Shoot your load 4-5 wide in the next to last quarter as the dynamics are against you (for example slow first & second quarter with no flow, next to last quarter is fast and last quarter is fast so no closers have a shot). Spin your wheels in the latter part of a boat race and waste a good run with little to no purse money. Can't tell you how many times his trainer wants to put a hammer to his head for not listening and always does things his way.

Ironic thing is these guys are all soooooo bad, there equal incompetency allows them to each have decent winning (or should I say 'win by accident') percentages. Hard to convince him the trainer's advice is better as he'll shout back: I'm winning at 18%!

How f'n ironic is that..... :bang: :bang: :bang:


No matter the identity of the jockey you described in your post, from watching thousands of replays, your description fits Julien Leparoux to the nth degree........

[mountainman]

You guys might find it interesting that the late Dale Baird had one simple instruction for his riders: Go to the front and improve your position. Even with deep-closers. The man didn't flatter jocks as thinkers or tacticians.

[EMD4ME]

No matter the identity of the jockey you described in your post, from watching thousands of replays, your description fits Julien Leparoux to the nth degree........

Lmfao!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :lol: :ThmbUp:

And the crazy part is, no that's not him but darn right!!!! Sure does sound like that mental soft midget.

[EMD4ME]

You guys might find it interesting that the late Dale Baird had one simple instruction for his riders: Go to the front and improve your position. Even with deep-closers. The man didn't flatter jocks as thinkers or tacticians.

I don't blame him..... sadly. Got rest his soul.

[onefast99]

Two schools of thought apply here. A jock that works the horse in the morning will know the horse well, a jock getting up on a horse for the first time who is 30-1 may take a different approach to the race unless the TRAINER tells him specifics like the horse is doing well in the am keep him off the rail keep him covered up etc etc. Jocks look at the pp's they see how a horse runs they know where to be in a race but what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily play out on the track. An owner may chime in from time to time, Carlos Marquez Jr. always asked me what I thought and if we won he always came back to the winners circle and say "just like you told me boss" and in reality I didn't say anything but be safe.

[ReplayRandall]

Two schools of thought apply here. A jock that works the horse in the morning will know the horse well, a jock getting up on a horse for the first time who is 30-1 may take a different approach to the race unless the TRAINER tells him specifics like the horse is doing well in the am keep him off the rail keep him covered up etc etc. Jocks look at the pp's they see how a horse runs they know where to be in a race but what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily play out on the track. An owner may chime in from time to time, Carlos Marquez Jr. always asked me what I thought and if we won he always came back to the winners circle and say "just like you told me boss" and in reality I didn't say anything but be safe.

Made a lot of money on "C.H." Marquez's mounts at 5-1 and up.....:ThmbUp:

[chadk66]

the best thing I could tell my jockeys in regard to racing strategy was nothing. If I had a rider on the horse that I felt needed to be told how to ride it he probably isn't a jock that I wanted on my horse. That being said, occasionally how a horse is placed during a race can get changed as an attempt to try something different with the horse. But that is something that I always discussed and hashed over with that horses normal rider. and it usually was a mutual decision. example would be a horse you normally send to or near the lead and then you decide to try him from off the pace a ways.

[cj]

the best thing I could tell my jockeys in regard to racing strategy was nothing. If I had a rider on the horse that I felt needed to be told how to ride it he probably isn't a jock that I wanted on my horse. That being said, occasionally how a horse is placed during a race can get changed as an attempt to try something different with the horse. But that is something that I always discussed and hashed over with that horses normal rider. and it usually was a mutual decision. example would be a horse you normally send to or near the lead and then you decide to try him from off the pace a ways.

Would this be true for a first time starter or a horse trying something different, i.e. routing or turf?

[chadk66]

Would this be true for a first time starter or a horse trying something different, i.e. routing or turf?about the only thing anybody wants to do with a first time starter is get them out of the gate the best you can and try to lay close to the lead and keep the horse out of trouble. You try doing anything special and your asking for trouble. there are exceptions but they're rare. first time routes are a crap shoot. it depends on the horse whether you want to lay up front or off the pace more. If the horse has a few outs you can generally tell what he wants to do.

[Stillriledup]

You've mentioned "from your experience" several times in this thread. What exactly is your experience as an owner giving jockeys riding instructions?

My "experience" comment just has to do with my experiences in the game. You don't have to give a jock an instruction as an owner to find out that jocks hate being told what to do.

[Stillriledup]

When a perspective owner asked me how much I charged per day and I knew that the owner was that type of owner, I would tell them that if I train them it's one price but if you train them , it's double that price.:D

Were you sensitive to owners telling you how they want specific horses ridden and pass along instructions to jocks? Did it also depend on the instruction and or how much the owner knew about the game?

[Robert Fischer]

Are you in the game to win?
or are you in the game to mess around with tactics?

Because 90% of us aren't going to earn a penny more micromanaging our horses.

You can certainly take measures to gain more control of tactics. If you are making a living as an owner and are significant enough, you have more of an opportunity to develop a relationship with a flexible trainer, and jockey. You can even bring in your own personal jockey.

95% of the time it is better to go with the flow, and focus your expertise on selecting quality horses and trainers within that flow. Use your 'elite jockey tactics insight' -in the claim-box ... not in the jock instructions.

[thespaah]

Watching the new episode of Stable Wars, Scott Kaplan from Great Friends Stable was "giving instructions" to Tyler Baze.....they weren't really specific instructions other than to save some ground (which should be obvious). So, It didnt' appear that tyler saved one inch of ground and then got off the horse and was really mad that some owner "dared" tell him what to do and there was an 'exchange' of words between Scott and Tyler. (not sure if they played it up for the show, but Tyler seemed genuinely mad). Now, i know its a tv show, but i have to imagine this happens in real life and i know from my own experience that giving jocks instructions is almost a "no no" especially top jocks.

I thought this was pretty funny thinking back to EDM's thread in the handicapping section about bad rides, jocks make SO many mistakes and yet, there they are, getting highly offended if anyone dare tell them some "Strategy".

Are jocks right to get offended if an owner is telling them what to do, or does the owner have a right to put in his 2 cents and the jock should just shut up and say thank you for the mount and do what he's told?
First, your notion that jocks "make SO many mistakes" is based on what?
Now, so called instructions are not for journeyman riders. If a trainer has anything to say to the rider before hand, it is likely a discussion about race strategy. If the rider is on the horse for the first time, the trainer may have other advice. Such as, "don't hit the horse too many times because she loses interest."...."or, don't ask him to run until the three eighths."...Or, "this one doesn't like being on the fence"...
If any rider takes umbrage to that, it will probably be their last job for that barn....Jockey's have to be professionals. As do trainers. No trainer, unless he's on the level of a Mott, Pletcher, etc, should ever rip into a rider in front of others. And to be frank, most of the top trainers would not take their frustrations out on a rider like that anyway....

[thespaah]

An owner telling a jock what to do.
Lol

I can,t blame the jock at all

Owners should know their place

Allan
I'm unaware of owners who may try to add in their two cents. it's probably not common.
I don't think the trainer would be pleased with such meddling either.
But, trainers have pre race chats with their riders all the time.

[Stillriledup]

First, your notion that jocks "make SO many mistakes" is based on what?
Now, so called instructions are not for journeyman riders. If a trainer has anything to say to the rider before hand, it is likely a discussion about race strategy. If the rider is on the horse for the first time, the trainer may have other advice. Such as, "don't hit the horse too many times because she loses interest."...."or, don't ask him to run until the three eighths."...Or, "this one doesn't like being on the fence"...
If any rider takes umbrage to that, it will probably be their last job for that barn....Jockey's have to be professionals. As do trainers. No trainer, unless he's on the level of a Mott, Pletcher, etc, should ever rip into a rider in front of others. And to be frank, most of the top trainers would not take their frustrations out on a rider like that anyway....

I see plenty of mistakes on tape and while watching the races live, you can read the "subtle" threads in the handicapping section, there are a few rides in there that are discussed.

[thespaah]

The owner is the boss and the jock is the employee, is the bosses "place" to just do whatever the employee says? :jump:
Beg to differ. No matter what the owner says, the trainer is the conditioner responsible for the horse, for performance and the well being of the animal.
The owner may be the Flag Admiral. The trainer is the Captain of the ship.
Few trainers would put up with such meddling.

[thespaah]

An owner telling a jock what to do was the end of the road for me getting out of the training business. I had thought about giving it up until my kids were grown up because I didn't want to raise them in the barn. I was stabled in MN and one weekend I took a horse to Chicago to run and had a two year old that was making his third start back in MN. My wife was there taking care of the barn in MN. The rider of the two year old had ridden him his previous two starts and breezed him numerous times. He was stretching out to a mile and it wasn't a question of if he was going to win but by how far. He was just begging to go a distance. Could run all day. His race was on a sat. My chicago horse was in for sunday. So we run this two year old and the jock opens up like ten lengths on the field up the back side. Well needless to say he gets beat a nose at the wire and runs second. That night the owner flies to chicago. The minute she gets off the plane she is in my face for telling the jockey to open up ten on the field. I was flabbergasted. The jock and I had the discussion before I left. He was to use his best judgement because running a two year old around two turns for the first time never goes as planned anyway. Well I was so pissed she would even think that I would tell a jockey to do that I plain and simply told her to stuff it and find a new trainer because in two weeks I was packing my crap and calling it quits. When I got back to MN I talked to the jock to see what the deal was. He said when he was in the paddock the owner and her husband were both telling him what to do and both had their own idea on how it should be. So basically he got pissed and showed em who was boss lol. So that is essentially what the catalyst was for me to throw in the towel. Although I had been really contemplating it. I sincerely miss the horses but I don't miss the seven days a week, eighteen hours a day bit. Nor do I miss dealing with the majority of the owners I had. I had some amazing owners and some not so much. They all want a professional trainer but too few will consider being professional owners.
If training horses has a component of customer service, I can tell you that if you think it was bad then, it's worse now.
I have been dealing with the public, working in people's homes for over 20 years. In general, the frequency at which I have to deal with high maintenance people is at an all time high. They have become demanding. They want top shelf liquor on a beer budget.
The worst are what I call "new money" people....These people have the attitude that "I have money, I know everything.
But for my skills at knowing how to "handle people", I'd be working in some other occupation. It takes a lot of patience and diplomacy.
Based on your account, it appears you were "up to here" with the BS and were already out of the door.

[Ruffian1]

Were you sensitive to owners telling you how they want specific horses ridden and pass along instructions to jocks? Did it also depend on the instruction and or how much the owner knew about the game?

Overall, I had a great relationship with most if not all of my owners. Darn near all of them realized that we all are pretty good at what we specialize in. And I always respected their opinion. Anytime an owner wanted to talk about riding tactics, I was open to a discussion. But not in the paddock. That discussion needs to take place in the morning, not in the afternoon.

I never had an owner ask to give instructions as I recall . I was always open to discussion about what we were trying to achieve in terms of instructions . But the 1st thing that I explained to all of my owners is that rarely does a race unfold exactly the way we think it will, or should. Too much happens. Horses get left, or stumble, or catch flyers. And as most here know, the list of that stuff is endless.

What I would ALWAYS strive for when giving instructions, although in most cases I had talked to the rider earlier, maybe in the tack room, or on the rail training in the AM, or whatever, was the horses mouth, if it was light, or if the horse wore a particular bit, and more importantly, WHY that horse wore that bit. Too me, that was crucial. Also, likes and dislikes. Some horses do not like the whip. Show it to them, fine. ( Sunday Silence comes to mind with big name horses. Ever watch Chris ride him?) Hit them, and they sulk and probably flatten out. Happens more than most would think. Or loafing when they make the lead, or won't run inside horses through the lane, must be outside or loves running inside. Blind in one eye. How many times have you seen a jock showing the stick to a horse in it's blind eye? You would be amazed. Gate tendencies, like don't touch her ears or don't tail her ( grab her tail to make her break downward.) Only has 3/8's mile run in them. Not long sustained. Etc.
The list is endless. Also for me, it was always showing where the speed was, If things went the way they should as well as likes and dislikes. As much as I wanted to draw them a map, you can't because you have no clue what will actually happen. You have to rely on them making the best possible decision in an instant. When they don't, and you lose, the instinct is to be pissed at the rider and question why they did what they did. But if you are going to question their decision making, you should have thought about that when you named them, not at the 1/8th pole. Blame yourself, not the instant decision. Chances are they have reacted similarly in the past when faced with the same problem and that was on me to see previously when they rode other horses.
Watching replays and doing jockey homework was key. If you know who you are giving a leg up to, and their tendencies as well as your horses, you were probably in better shape than most others in your race. You needed to be sure that the rider fit the horse. Speed riders on speed horse, patient riders on closers, finesse riders on those certain finicky types. Without the proper rider, what are you doin, right?

Training is about the little things not the big things IMO. And it was my opinion that the proper rider for the proper horse was huge.

Hope I answered that well enough and didn't get carried away. Thought I was back in the paddock for a minute. Lol.

[Ruffian1]

If training horses has a component of customer service, I can tell you that if you think it was bad then, it's worse now.
I have been dealing with the public, working in people's homes for over 20 years. In general, the frequency at which I have to deal with high maintenance people is at an all time high. They have become demanding. They want top shelf liquor on a beer budget.
The worst are what I call "new money" people....These people have the attitude that "I have money, I know everything.
But for my skills at knowing how to "handle people", I'd be working in some other occupation. It takes a lot of patience and diplomacy.
Based on your account, it appears you were "up to here" with the BS and were already out of the door.

So true !

I deal with all that as well in my line of work.

[Tall One]

Great post, Ruffian. Thanks for sharing in this thread..you and Chad both. :ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

No matter the identity of the jockey you described in your post, from watching thousands of replays, your description fits Julien Leparoux to the nth degree........
Leparoux.....Unless he is on what appears to be a horse that jumps off the page, I avoid betting his mounts..
If were a hockey player he'd be the guy who gets the puck with the goalie down and "misses the garage door"....During my playing days we called "no finish".

[Stillriledup]

Beg to differ. No matter what the owner says, the trainer is the conditioner responsible for the horse, for performance and the well being of the animal.
The owner may be the Flag Admiral. The trainer is the Captain of the ship.
Few trainers would put up with such meddling.

Depends on the power of the owner or trainer. If its a top trainer in the country, they're calling the shots almost all the time. If its a very influential owner, they certainly have more pull to make suggestions. Pecking order is huge in who can tell who what to do.

[Stillriledup]

Overall, I had a great relationship with most if not all of my owners. Darn near all of them realized that we all are pretty good at what we specialize in. And I always respected their opinion. Anytime an owner wanted to talk about riding tactics, I was open to a discussion. But not in the paddock. That discussion needs to take place in the morning, not in the afternoon.

I never had an owner ask to give instructions as I recall . I was always open to discussion about what we were trying to achieve in terms of instructions . But the 1st thing that I explained to all of my owners is that rarely does a race unfold exactly the way we think it will, or should. Too much happens. Horses get left, or stumble, or catch flyers. And as most here know, the list of that stuff is endless.

What I would ALWAYS strive for when giving instructions, although in most cases I had talked to the rider earlier, maybe in the tack room, or on the rail training in the AM, or whatever, was the horses mouth, if it was light, or if the horse wore a particular bit, and more importantly, WHY that horse wore that bit. Too me, that was crucial. Also, likes and dislikes. Some horses do not like the whip. Show it to them, fine. ( Sunday Silence comes to mind with big name horses. Ever watch Chris ride him?) Hit them, and they sulk and probably flatten out. Happens more than most would think. Or loafing when they make the lead, or won't run inside horses through the lane, must be outside or loves running inside. Blind in one eye. How many times have you seen a jock showing the stick to a horse in it's blind eye? You would be amazed. Gate tendencies, like don't touch her ears or don't tail her ( grab her tail to make her break downward.) Only has 3/8's mile run in them. Not long sustained. Etc.
The list is endless. Also for me, it was always showing where the speed was, If things went the way they should as well as likes and dislikes. As much as I wanted to draw them a map, you can't because you have no clue what will actually happen. You have to rely on them making the best possible decision in an instant. When they don't, and you lose, the instinct is to be pissed at the rider and question why they did what they did. But if you are going to question their decision making, you should have thought about that when you named them, not at the 1/8th pole. Blame yourself, not the instant decision. Chances are they have reacted similarly in the past when faced with the same problem and that was on me to see previously when they rode other horses.
Watching replays and doing jockey homework was key. If you know who you are giving a leg up to, and their tendencies as well as your horses, you were probably in better shape than most others in your race. You needed to be sure that the rider fit the horse. Speed riders on speed horse, patient riders on closers, finesse riders on those certain finicky types. Without the proper rider, what are you doin, right?

Training is about the little things not the big things IMO. And it was my opinion that the proper rider for the proper horse was huge.

Hope I answered that well enough and didn't get carried away. Thought I was back in the paddock for a minute. Lol.

Wow, fantastic writeup, thanks for this contribution, very informative, even a know it all like me learned some things. :D

All the best trainers are amazing politicians and know how to deal with jocks who have the biggest egos, very fine line for sure, and it also helps to have a relationship with a rider who respects you as a great horsemen, theyre more apt to want to have a discussion to get on the same page with the specific horse and the specific situation.

Me and EDM are pretty hard on jocks here and there's no doubt its harder to ride a perfect race than meets the eye, it looks pretty easy sitting on the couch lol.

I've found that most of the time jocks get me mad is when they have opportunities to save ground and just stay wide, that drives me crazy. I know that some horses like to race wide, i hate being hung out there.

The other main criticism i have for most jocks is they don't "adjust" on the fly and they dont seem to be aware of the heavy favorite most times. Jocks from gate 2 or 3 who step around the 3-5 shot from post one who gets off a length or two slow almost never move over to the 1 path and kick dirt on the chalk, they stay in their lane and let the fave rush up the rail.....i'm not betting too many 3-5s from post 1 so when the 2 and 3 horse outbreak the rail they don't get around that guy at the start and then don't quickly move over, it makes me unhappy.

[thespaah]

I see plenty of mistakes on tape and while watching the races live, you can read the "subtle" threads in the handicapping section, there are a few rides in there that are discussed.
Ok..Is a reaction to a particular event during a race that may cost a horse a placing always considered a 'mistake'?

[Stillriledup]

Ok..Is a reaction to a particular event during a race that may cost a horse a placing always considered a 'mistake'?

It depends on who you ask but no, to me that's not a mistake, its just lack of caring, a bad attitude, etc. I dont consider that a tactial mistake, i just think its lack of effort. In other words, if i criticize a jock for not riding thru the wire costing his mount a board spot, i won't classify that as a "bad ride" in the conventional sense.

[thespaah]

Wow, fantastic writeup, thanks for this contribution, very informative, even a know it all like me learned some things. :D

All the best trainers are amazing politicians and know how to deal with jocks who have the biggest egos, very fine line for sure, and it also helps to have a relationship with a rider who respects you as a great horsemen, theyre more apt to want to have a discussion to get on the same page with the specific horse and the specific situation.

Me and EDM are pretty hard on jocks here and there's no doubt its harder to ride a perfect race than meets the eye, it looks pretty easy sitting on the couch lol.

I've found that most of the time jocks get me mad is when they have opportunities to save ground and just stay wide, that drives me crazy. I know that some horses like to race wide, i hate being hung out there.

The other main criticism i have for most jocks is they don't "adjust" on the fly and they dont seem to be aware of the heavy favorite most times. Jocks from gate 2 or 3 who step around the 3-5 shot from post one who gets off a length or two slow almost never move over to the 1 path and kick dirt on the chalk, they stay in their lane and let the fave rush up the rail.....i'm not betting too many 3-5s from post 1 so when the 2 and 3 horse outbreak the rail they don't get around that guy at the start and then don't quickly move over, it makes me unhappy.
Odd. You don't like it when your betting selections race off the rail( wide)...
I cannot stand it when my betting interests are on the fence. IMO, it's much easier to get out of trouble or avoid tiring horses if a horse has room to get out.
Too many times I have bets and I can see I have a ton of horse and the jock gets him stuck carving his initials into the rail.....GRRRRR!!!!!

[Stillriledup]

Odd. You don't like it when your betting selections race off the rail( wide)...
I cannot stand it when my betting interests are on the fence. IMO, it's much easier to get out of trouble or avoid tiring horses if a horse has room to get out.
Too many times I have bets and I can see I have a ton of horse and the jock gets him stuck carving his initials into the rail.....GRRRRR!!!!!

Let me clarify. There are certain situations where i would prefer my jock to go wide and not rush up the inside, but most times, i'm ground-save sensitive, i'd rather save the ground and take my chances that the horse can function inside.

One of my peeves is when a jock has an opportunity in the stretch to go outside or inside of the leader and he tries to go up the rail only to find that his horse just stops gaining and is refusing to pass inside. My logic is always angle out if you can, don't "choose" the inside if both options are equally available.

[mountainman]

Darn near all of them realized that we all are pretty good at what we specialize in.

No offense, sir, I enjoy your posts and respect your opinions. But there IS no profession on earth with more incompetent posers than thoroughbred horse-training.

[Saratoga_Mike]

No offense, sir, I enjoy your posts and respect your opinions. But there IS no profession on earth with more incompetent posers than thoroughbred horse-training.

...making friends and influencing people, I see :)

[Stillriledup]

No offense, sir, I enjoy your posts and respect your opinions. But there IS no profession on earth with more incompetent posers than thoroughbred horse-training.

Lets name names, who at Mountaineer goes under this list? :D

[chadk66]

If training horses has a component of customer service, I can tell you that if you think it was bad then, it's worse now.
I have been dealing with the public, working in people's homes for over 20 years. In general, the frequency at which I have to deal with high maintenance people is at an all time high. They have become demanding. They want top shelf liquor on a beer budget.
The worst are what I call "new money" people....These people have the attitude that "I have money, I know everything.
But for my skills at knowing how to "handle people", I'd be working in some other occupation. It takes a lot of patience and diplomacy.
Based on your account, it appears you were "up to here" with the BS and were already out of the door.I guess you'd have to know all the intimate details regarding this particular owner. But yea I had my fill by that time. But I know what your saying with about how bad it is now. I was a general contractor for fifteen years. Got my fill of that too.

[chadk66]

No offense, sir, I enjoy your posts and respect your opinions. But there IS no profession on earth with more incompetent posers than thoroughbred horse-training.worlds full of incompetent posers now. from politicians to car salesman. they're all over.

[v j stauffer]

Dude, have you ever given dog racing a try?

You really think being a jockey is easy? Have you ever ridden a horse, even at a dude ranch? You have a 110 pound human perched atop 1100 pounds of animal, an animal which is seemingly comprised of 1097 pounds of pure instinct and 3 pounds of brain matter, and you complain endlessly on how things don't always work out. Add nine or ten other horses, all with their own plans, and it can really be surprising when a race works out in real life like it was supposed to on paper.

Each race is a dynamic entity, and few jockeys know every mount inside and out. Crud happens.

Do some jockeys have a bad attitude? Sure, just like some trainers, owners and handicappers. But jockeys have the toughest job at the track, and literally risk their lives every time they get a leg up. I would cut the some slack in general, and treat them with a little more respect.

Being a jockey is a very difficult profession. They are finely tuned athletes performing at a level of expertise that very few of us could ever imagine.

They risk their lives each and every time they mount one of the 1100 lb. flighty missiles you speak of.

Horses are very unpredictable thereby sometimes making instructions very difficult to follow. Split second decisions must me made and audible's called in the heat of the battle.

HOWEVER. A jockey is an independent contractor who is HIRED by the owner who pays for his services. While the majority of owners entrust and defer the trainer to do the hiring, firing and instructing. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong if an owner wishes to give instructions. Explicitly as he sees fit. Furthermore, absent something unforeseen, he has every right to expect those orders be followed to a tee. He is also completely justified in getting very angry if those tactics, again absent something unforeseen, are ignored.

Think of a racing horse like a sports franchise.

Grooms: Office staff.

Trainer: General Manager.

Horse and Jockey: Players on the field.

Owner: CEO of all operations. The man that signs the checks and makes final decisions. Period.

You also alluded to how dangerous race riding is. That's a decision jockeys must reconcile for themselves before becoming available to be contracted. To suggest an owner shouldn't be involved in strategy because it's very dangerous is not fair to the owner.

Of all the people we should be most indebted to it's the people who invest their money in this game. They know upfront it's nearly impossible to be successful yet still choose to participate. Action? Ego? Camaraderie? Diversion? Who cares?

My only response to them is. THANK YOU!

To deny them the FUN of being involved 100% all the way, in every aspect, is CRAZY.

[cj]

I agree, an owner should be able to give direction. I always laugh at trainers that say an owner should just let them handle it all, that is comical to me. I know darn well as an owner I'd be selecting which races the horse is going to run in at a minimum.

[Ruffian1]

No offense, sir, I enjoy your posts and respect your opinions. But there IS no profession on earth with more incompetent posers than thoroughbred horse-training.

No offense taken. What I meant was that I fully respected my owners as competent to run their businesses and I expected the same in return. This was discussed prior to training for them. Being a young guy and all my owners were older, it was important to me to have ground rules laid out so we were all on the same page from day one. Because of this, I rarely had problems with owners. For the most part, we got along great and again, they could contribute any time they wanted . My door , for them, was always open. I mean, what the heck, it was their horse.

I had many conversations with owners about how to ride, where to run, etc. when I trained. Many, many conversations. But my point was that the time for those conversations was not in the paddock but prior too.

Someone posted about jockeys egos and needing to be a bit of a politician in here or something to that effect. That was spot on. It was very important IMO that the jockey was part of the team for that day. The horse, me, the owner, the groom, all of us. If a rider was unsure of the outfit, he was unsure of the horse, plain and simple.

So again, any owner that wanted to discuss anything about their horse with me had every right too. And that happened a lot. But it happened at the proper time and place. Not in the paddock.

As for incompetent posers , you are so right!!

I was a low to mid level claiming trainer most of the time in Md. and if not for those pretending to know but had no clue incompetent posers, I would not have lasted very long. If you knew what you were doing and had learned from a true horseman along the way, spotting the phonies was easy. They stood out from the crowd and if they had a horse with any ability whatsoever, that horse was in my barn the 1st time it ran for a price I could pay. I had a library of horses leg problems, warm up habits, pull up habits and replays at my disposal from watching races every day and documenting things about them on my programs, all saved from meet to meet. when I was thinking about claiming a horse, I go back through the programs and see when and if anything changed from race to race, so as to put together a history of what I had seen over the last 5-6 races. This was my livelihood and I tried to create an edge by having this info. All this info was collected by me, only. No one else.

Believe me, I was no Ben Jones. Just a guy that took mismanaged horses and tried to manage them better.

And posers, oh yeah, wear a trainers badge and you must be the real deal right? :D Nah.

[chadk66]

I agree, an owner should be able to give direction. I always laugh at trainers that say an owner should just let them handle it all, that is comical to me. I know darn well as an owner I'd be selecting which races the horse is going to run in at a minimum.you and stauffer make good points. but in probably the majority of the cases with owners they really don't know how to read the condition book. It's a trainers job to work with the owner in regards to picking races. And for the most part there are few choices. either there is a race or two at the right time or there isn't. The tough decisions arise with stakes caliber horses in picking which stakes races are best for that particular horse. Stauffer your post was pretty solid. The one thing that I would add to your post is that in the NFL for example, you don't see the owner sitting in the booth with the head phones on calling the plays. He entrusts the head coach to assume those responsibilities whether himself or by designation. The owner/trainer relationship for the most part is similar to that scenario.

[chadk66]

No offense taken. What I meant was that I fully respected my owners as competent to run their businesses and I expected the same in return. This was discussed prior to training for them. Being a young guy and all my owners were older, it was important to me to have ground rules laid out so we were all on the same page from day one. Because of this, I rarely had problems with owners. For the most part, we got along great and again, they could contribute any time they wanted . My door , for them, was always open. I mean, what the heck, it was their horse.

I had many conversations with owners about how to ride, where to run, etc. when I trained. Many, many conversations. But my point was that the time for those conversations was not in the paddock but prior too.

Someone posted about jockeys egos and needing to be a bit of a politician in here or something to that effect. That was spot on. It was very important IMO that the jockey was part of the team for that day. The horse, me, the owner, the groom, all of us. If a rider was unsure of the outfit, he was unsure of the horse, plain and simple.

So again, any owner that wanted to discuss anything about their horse with me had every right too. And that happened a lot. But it happened at the proper time and place. Not in the paddock.

As for incompetent posers , you are so right!!

I was a low to mid level claiming trainer most of the time in Md. and if not for those pretending to know but had no clue incompetent posers, I would not have lasted very long. If you knew what you were doing and had learned from a true horseman along the way, spotting the phonies was easy. They stood out from the crowd and if they had a horse with any ability whatsoever, that horse was in my barn the 1st time it ran for a price I could pay. I had a library of horses leg problems, warm up habits, pull up habits and replays at my disposal from watching races every day and documenting things about them on my programs, all saved from meet to meet. when I was thinking about claiming a horse, I go back through the programs and see when and if anything changed from race to race, so as to put together a history of what I had seen over the last 5-6 races. This was my livelihood and I tried to create an edge by having this info. All this info was collected by me, only. No one else.

Believe me, I was no Ben Jones. Just a guy that took mismanaged horses and tried to manage them better.

And posers, oh yeah, wear a trainers badge and you must be the real deal right? :D Nah.outstanding post. pretty much knocked it out of the park.

[Ruffian1]

worlds full of incompetent posers now. from politicians to car salesman. they're all over.

When I left the track, I went into the building business. Custom homes, new construction. I always figured that when I left the track the real world would be different. It's not. More phonies and scam artists than ever.

[Ruffian1]

Odd. You don't like it when your betting selections race off the rail( wide)...
I cannot stand it when my betting interests are on the fence. IMO, it's much easier to get out of trouble or avoid tiring horses if a horse has room to get out.
Too many times I have bets and I can see I have a ton of horse and the jock gets him stuck carving his initials into the rail.....GRRRRR!!!!!

Very true. It does depend on where you race, or where you are a customer. If you play races in Md. , saving ground is important if the opportunity presents itself. At least 9 out of 10 times, there will be ample opportunity to get out when needed if the rider is competent because the jocks as a colony are not all talented enough to all ride tight and keep the better horse boxed. Sure, it happens sometimes but most often it is luck, or a lack thereof.

But if you are a customer in NY or Calif. it's a different story. Those jocks can bury you down inside and never let you out. THAT, is terribly frustrating, and over the years we have all felt that pain.

[Ruffian1]

outstanding post. pretty much knocked it out of the park.

Hey, thanks Chad.

If I may ask, where and when did you train?

[chadk66]

When I left the track, I went into the building business. Custom homes, new construction. I always figured that when I left the track the real world would be different. It's not. More phonies and scam artists than ever.I went into the same business and found the same thing. It's just the way the world works.

[chadk66]

Hey, thanks Chad.

If I may ask, where and when did you train?spent the summers in MN, and had a breeding farm there. Then went various places in the fall. Have raced at Thistledown, Hawthorn, AP, Balmoral, Birmingham the first year it opened, Aksarben, Assiniboi for a few stakes, Keeneland and CD. Quite a few places.

[Ruffian1]

spent the summers in MN, and had a breeding farm there. Then went various places in the fall. Have raced at Thistledown, Hawthorn, AP, Balmoral, Birmingham the first year it opened, Aksarben, Assiniboi for a few stakes, Keeneland and CD. Quite a few places.

Well then I guess we never crossed paths. I was Md. and surrounding tracks my whole career. That seems like my loss. You seem to be the type of trainer that I would have wanted to have a coffee and a laugh with on the rail .

Just saw your other post about your broodmare offer. Good for you. It sounds like an amazing offer. I hope it works out for you.

[chadk66]

Well then I guess we never crossed paths. I was Md. and surrounding tracks my whole career. That seems like my loss. You seem to be the type of trainer that I would have wanted to have a coffee and a laugh with on the rail .

Just saw your other post about your broodmare offer. Good for you. It sounds like an amazing offer. I hope it works out for you.i once sent one of our good home bred mares to laurel/pimlico on fall/winter with a trainer buddy of mine. U might know him. Neil Simms. Haven't talked to him in a gazillion years. Not sure if he is even training anymore.

[Ruffian1]

i once sent one of our good home bred mares to laurel/pimlico on fall/winter with a trainer buddy of mine. U might know him. Neil Simms. Haven't talked to him in a gazillion years. Not sure if he is even training anymore.

Purely on memory but didn't he work for the Helen Pollinger on their farm?

[mountainman]

No offense taken. What I meant was that I fully respected my owners as competent to run their businesses and I expected the same in return. This was discussed prior to training for them. Being a young guy and all my owners were older, it was important to me to have ground rules laid out so we were all on the same page from day one. Because of this, I rarely had problems with owners. For the most part, we got along great and again, they could contribute any time they wanted . My door , for them, was always open. I mean, what the heck, it was their horse.

I had many conversations with owners about how to ride, where to run, etc. when I trained. Many, many conversations. But my point was that the time for those conversations was not in the paddock but prior too.

Someone posted about jockeys egos and needing to be a bit of a politician in here or something to that effect. That was spot on. It was very important IMO that the jockey was part of the team for that day. The horse, me, the owner, the groom, all of us. If a rider was unsure of the outfit, he was unsure of the horse, plain and simple.

So again, any owner that wanted to discuss anything about their horse with me had every right too. And that happened a lot. But it happened at the proper time and place. Not in the paddock.

As for incompetent posers , you are so right!!

I was a low to mid level claiming trainer most of the time in Md. and if not for those pretending to know but had no clue incompetent posers, I would not have lasted very long. If you knew what you were doing and had learned from a true horseman along the way, spotting the phonies was easy. They stood out from the crowd and if they had a horse with any ability whatsoever, that horse was in my barn the 1st time it ran for a price I could pay. I had a library of horses leg problems, warm up habits, pull up habits and replays at my disposal from watching races every day and documenting things about them on my programs, all saved from meet to meet. when I was thinking about claiming a horse, I go back through the programs and see when and if anything changed from race to race, so as to put together a history of what I had seen over the last 5-6 races. This was my livelihood and I tried to create an edge by having this info. All this info was collected by me, only. No one else.

Believe me, I was no Ben Jones. Just a guy that took mismanaged horses and tried to manage them better.

And posers, oh yeah, wear a trainers badge and you must be the real deal right? :D Nah.

Tx for the response. I'm sure you were a good trainer. A brief attempt at hands-on horsemanship proved beyond doubt that I had no knack for it. My failings, in fact, at conditioning and campaigning a couple of t-breds led me to find other work, which, ironically enough, has uniquely positioned me to size up trainers.

merry xmas! (please insert cool icon of choice)

[onefast99]

I agree, an owner should be able to give direction. I always laugh at trainers that say an owner should just let them handle it all, that is comical to me. I know darn well as an owner I'd be selecting which races the horse is going to run in at a minimum.
Maybe I am one of the few owners that don't ever want to give a professional jockey instructions I never will. I am not a jockey and what the jockeys do when the gate opens is based on the uncertainty of how the race unfolds. How can I tell the jockey what or where he should be or how I think the race will unfold? I can't, but the trainer can tell him what the horse likes or dislikes, keep him in the second tier, keep dirt out of his face don't pin him on the rail etc etc. If any owner thinks he knows how his horse trains in the morning or what he likes and dislikes thats near an impossibility the trainer lives and breathes that horses work routine.

[Dark Horse]

Of all the people we should be most indebted to it's the people who invest their money in this game. (...)

My only response to them is. THANK YOU!



Thanks so much Vic. On behalf of all the bettors who make the sport of kings possible.

[Dark Horse]

I agree, an owner should be able to give direction. I always laugh at trainers that say an owner should just let them handle it all, that is comical to me. I know darn well as an owner I'd be selecting which races the horse is going to run in at a minimum.

Unless the owner knows more than the trainer, which would be an absurd proposition in a sport as football (barring the Dallas Cowboys), I believe the most effective order of things is:

- owner can discuss race with trainer, but final decisions are up to trainer.
- trainer can instruct jockey, and expect him to ride accordingly, while leaving the door open to the unexpected and trusting the jockeys instincts.

If an owner would discuss things with the jockey, without the trainer's knowledge, that would be a big no-no in my book. Such an owner would undermine the very structure that he's financing.

[horses4courses]

Unless the owner knows more than the trainer, which would be an absurd proposition in a sport as football (barring the Dallas Cowboys), I believe the most effective order of things is:

- owner can discuss race with trainer, but final decisions are up to trainer.
- trainer can instruct jockey, and expect him to ride accordingly, while leaving the door open to the unexpected and trusting the jockeys instincts.

If an owner would discuss things with the jockey, without the trainer's knowledge, that would be a big no-no in my book. Such an owner would undermine the very structure that he's financing.

I agree.

Obviously, owners vary with regard to their knowledge
of horses and racing. However, as a general rule, trainers
are more knowledgeable on those subjects.

I would have a question for cj, if he wanted to have a role
in deciding which races his horse would run in.

Example: Your horse ran today, and you have your eye
on a race in 3 weeks. Trainer tells you that it's highly unlikely
that the horse can be ready by then. What do you do?

[Valuist]

I believe owners should have a say in where the horse is entered but I'd probably draw the line there. Giving riding instructions, unless to an absolute useless apprentice, is an insult to the rider. As you can see from Chad's example earlier, the rider basically said screw you, I'll show you who's boss. I remember my friend who I owned with and I would talk to the trainer earlier about the race. If the race had a lack of speed, or multiple speedballs, we'd bring it up, just to make sure the trainer had looked at the race. But to sit there in the paddock or walking ring and telling the rider "I want you to sit 3rd in the garden spot" is micromanaging.

How do things go over when Jerry Jones or the late Al Davis were on the sidelines? Not well at all. In any form of the workplace, micromanaging is a big negative.

[EMD4ME]

I believe owners should have a say in where the horse is entered but I'd probably draw the line there. Giving riding instructions, unless to an absolute useless apprentice, is an insult to the rider. As you can see from Chad's example earlier, the rider basically said screw you, I'll show you who's boss. I remember my friend who I owned with and I would talk to the trainer earlier about the race. If the race had a lack of speed, or multiple speedballs, we'd bring it up, just to make sure the trainer had looked at the race. But to sit there in the paddock or walking ring and telling the rider "I want you to sit 3rd in the garden spot" is micromanaging.

How do things go over when Jerry Jones or the late Al Davis were on the sidelines? Not well at all. In any form of the workplace, micromanaging is a big negative.

Micromanaging is a poor way to impact results, I totally agree.

It's super important to create buy in, to build camaraderie with the jock and to let them think they came up with the plan (by asking the right pinpoint questions to steer them where you want them to go mentally but by playing stupid while you do it).

If job is done correctly, thank them graciously, tell them how smart they were. REPEAT.

That's my 2 cents on this.

[thespaah]

The owner is the boss and the jock is the employee, is the bosses "place" to just do whatever the employee says? :jump:
Unless the owner has consulted with the trainer prior to speaking with the jock, or the owner is an experienced horseman/woman, he or she should stay out of the competition end of the business. Just write the checks and go sit in the owners' boxes..
One of my pet peeves is sports team owners who insist on being part of the show by interfering with the work of the professionals on the payroll.
One of the reasons why I cannot stand Jerry Jones....His teams haven't won diddly poo for a long time, yet he still feels compelled to meddle in on field affairs.

[thespaah]

When a perspective owner asked me how much I charged per day and I knew that the owner was that type of owner, I would tell them that if I train them it's one price but if you train them , it's double that price.:D
When I was doing a lot of side work in the satellite/comm wiring business I had this sign I made up as a joke and kept in my truck....
here's my price list...
Hourly rates...
Regular labor rate $40/hr
If you watch, $50/hr
If you make suggestions, $60 per hour.
If you help, $100 per hour

[Donttellmeshowme]

I know some trainers that will tell owners who want to give instructions and want to pick the races that they might as well go get there trainers license if they think they know how to train. Some owners dont know the head from the azz of the horse and there giving instructions on how to ride the horse.



Im alright with owners picking a race with help from the trainer but to give instructions to the jock is a no-no in my book.

[Stillriledup]

Unless the owner has consulted with the trainer prior to speaking with the jock, or the owner is an experienced horseman/woman, he or she should stay out of the competition end of the business. Just write the checks and go sit in the owners' boxes..
One of my pet peeves is sports team owners who insist on being part of the show by interfering with the work of the professionals on the payroll.
One of the reasons why I cannot stand Jerry Jones....His teams haven't won diddly poo for a long time, yet he still feels compelled to meddle in on field affairs.

But Jones isnt in the business of winning, he's in the business of making money.

FANS are in the 'winning' business because that's all they have.

[Ruffian1]

When I was doing a lot of side work in the satellite/comm wiring business I had this sign I made up as a joke and kept in my truck....
here's my price list...
Hourly rates...
Regular labor rate $40/hr
If you watch, $50/hr
If you make suggestions, $60 per hour.
If you help, $100 per hour

Very good . :D

[onefast99]

I know some trainers that will tell owners who want to give instructions and want to pick the races that they might as well go get there trainers license if they think they know how to train. Some owners dont know the head from the azz of the horse and there giving instructions on how to ride the horse.



Im alright with owners picking a race with help from the trainer but to give instructions to the jock is a no-no in my book.Last Sunday I was at MP my trainer had just received a horse from a NY based trainer, the jock came over to discuss the race it was quite simple, stay off the leaders and get him to the outside at the top of the stretch. The gate opened and the horse went right to the lead, got caught up in a speed duel at the 1/2 mile marker and was done by the 3/4 pole. The jock came back and said the horse was tough to handle and was sorry he couldn't rate him. Sometimes it isn't the jock, it's the horse!

[cbp]

99% of all trainer/owner instructions go as follows:

Take him outside because he doesn't like running a) behind b) between c) inside of horses.

Jock

So you want me to have him run 10 lengths more than necessary and then beat the shit out of him when he gets tired, effectively requiring a month to recover, all because you're too lazy/stupid to teach him how to run more efficiently.

Trainer

Exactly

[Brogan]

Last Sunday I was at MP my trainer had just received a horse from a NY based trainer, the jock came over to discuss the race it was quite simple, stay off the leaders and get him to the outside at the top of the stretch. The gate opened and the horse went right to the lead, got caught up in a speed duel at the 1/2 mile marker and was done by the 3/4 pole. The jock came back and said the horse was tough to handle and was sorry he couldn't rate him. Sometimes it isn't the jock, it's the horse!
Sometimes the best laid plans go up in smoke two jumps out of the gate. That's why its so nuts to give anything but the most general of instructions to the jock.

[Stillriledup]

Last Sunday I was at MP my trainer had just received a horse from a NY based trainer, the jock came over to discuss the race it was quite simple, stay off the leaders and get him to the outside at the top of the stretch. The gate opened and the horse went right to the lead, got caught up in a speed duel at the 1/2 mile marker and was done by the 3/4 pole. The jock came back and said the horse was tough to handle and was sorry he couldn't rate him. Sometimes it isn't the jock, it's the horse!

But most times its the jock. ;)

[v j stauffer]

Sometimes the best laid plans go up in smoke two jumps out of the gate. That's why its so nuts to give anything but the most general of instructions to the jock.

As much as trying to win the race today. Jocks tend to think more about the overall body of business with a trainer if that barn has many horses.

No rider wants to get fired out of a barn by messing up a 12-1 in a 5k claimer and miss out on three allowance horses.

Rare indeed is the day that any rider will just blow off instructions. They understand they're employees of the owner and trainer for the next 13 minutes and the boss is always right even when he's wrong.

Of course in the heat of battle good jocks have the instinct to improvise if they're sure it's the best course of action. Only a trainer or owner that's a dick wouldn't recognize this rare occasion.

I strongly believe jocks do want instructions and as detailed as possible. Takes the pressure off them.

Another way to alleviate pressure is to own the tactics good or bad.

I would say something to the effect of. " I don't care come hell or high water do not leave the rail. If you get stopped three times don't worry I won't blame you and you'll ride him back and the others I've given you calls for. If you choose to leave the rail, that's on you but you better be right"

When it comes to giving instructions the Golden Rule applies.

Those with the GOLD make the rules.

[Valuist]

But Jones isnt in the business of winning, he's in the business of making money.

FANS are in the 'winning' business because that's all they have.

The results have played out that way. But owners of most sports teams have more money than they know what to do with. Winning is what drives the ego. And not many have bigger egos than Jerry Jones. If winning a Super Bowl costs him $20 million, I'm sure he'd gladly take that.

[SuperPickle]

As much as trying to win the race today. Jocks tend to think more about the overall body of business with a trainer if that barn has many horses.

No rider wants to get fired out of a barn by messing up a 12-1 in a 5k claimer and miss out on three allowance horses.

Rare indeed is the day that any rider will just blow off instructions. They understand they're employees of the owner and trainer for the next 13 minutes and the boss is always right even when he's wrong.

Of course in the heat of battle good jocks have the instinct to improvise if they're sure it's the best course of action. Only a trainer or owner that's a dick wouldn't recognize this rare occasion.

I strongly believe jocks do want instructions and as detailed as possible. Takes the pressure off them.

Another way to alleviate pressure is to own the tactics good or bad.

I would say something to the effect of. " I don't care come hell or high water do not leave the rail. If you get stopped three times don't worry I won't blame you and you'll ride him back and the others I've given you calls for. If you choose to leave the rail, that's on you but you better be right"

When it comes to giving instructions the Golden Rule applies.

Those with the GOLD make the rules.


I think Vic is right here. I think jockey's like to cover their butts and ask for input.

I always thought the term "instructions" to be a little narrow. Most jockey's will say something like "what do you want me to do with him/her" or "what are we doing here." Or if they've never gotten on a horse before "tell me about her."

Soliciting feedback doesn't always mean a requirement to take it. All bets are off once the gates open.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I have jocks that I like to ride even if nobody else does. Guys and gals who may not be the mechanically soundest or perhaps well past their peak. But, I trust their judgment and have enough of a history that they know even if I hate the ride I get, I won't jump their shit until I watch it a few times, certainly not on the apron after the race or on the walk back to the room. I like my jocks to be willing to adapt after a few dozen thousand practice runs before this one to figure out how its done.

My instructions are usually nonexistent. I stand with the horse as long as possible and hope that my rider is the last out of the room and into the paddock so we don't have to stand there pretending to have some meaningful conversation. If I have anything worth saying - usually something about the horse itself or maybe some other horse in the race to follow or look out for or whatever - we've usually already had that conversation before this point in time. And it seems almost a certainty that if you are telling the rider that "there's a lot of speed in here, so don't send..." that so is almost every trainer in the paddock with you.

The only conversation worth having more often than not is the one after the race. And the only time its worth having is if you haven't given a bunch of directives beforehand or blown your top marching to the apron. Then these guys are willing to tell you something worthwhile, even something you don't want to hear but need to hear. Sometimes even something they'd rather not admit, but they know if they come clean about a failed strategy you trust that they won't repeat it and improve upon it next time.

Contrary to some here, I don't think all jocks are inept and more likely than not to get you beat. Many are, but that's the goal. There's lots of them. You can ride the good ones or the ones that you work well with. Give me the latter.

[cj]

I agree.

Obviously, owners vary with regard to their knowledge
of horses and racing. However, as a general rule, trainers
are more knowledgeable on those subjects.

I would have a question for cj, if he wanted to have a role
in deciding which races his horse would run in.

Example: Your horse ran today, and you have your eye
on a race in 3 weeks. Trainer tells you that it's highly unlikely
that the horse can be ready by then. What do you do?

I would trust the trainer on that one. Then I'd tell him the next one I'd be interested in.

[GatetoWire]

The biggest issue I have with rides is being in the wrong section of the field.
Most races are pretty set within the first 1-2 furlongs.

The biggest errors I see daily are pressers falling too far behind in paceless races. Speed horses being choked back and come from behind horses falling way too far off the pace.

The best riders can anticipate the pace and be able to take advantage. Too many riders I see just don't play an active enough role in the first 2 furlongs and they get into places that make it impossible to win.

The instructions don't have to be a road map. Just a idea of where you should be. On the lead, stalking, mid pack or at the back.

At Saratoga, especially on the Inner Turf there were many races when a horse was eliminated in the first few strides because they were just too far back.

[onefast99]

99% of all trainer/owner instructions go as follows:

Take him outside because he doesn't like running a) behind b) between c) inside of horses.

Jock

So you want me to have him run 10 lengths more than necessary and then beat the shit out of him when he gets tired, effectively requiring a month to recover, all because you're too lazy/stupid to teach him how to run more efficiently.

Trainer

Exactly
Your scenario happens very rarely the jock knows how to read the pp's and most owners just say hello to the jockey, wishes them good luck and a safe ride.

[no breathalyzer]

I would tell the jockey... You ride em i'll revive em. :)

[SuperPickle]

I would trust the trainer on that one. Then I'd tell him the next one I'd be interested in.

CJ hit it on the head. All good trainers know the condition book better than anyone else on earth.

Does anyone watch Ron Ellis on TVG? He's awful at handicapping but here's where he's super valuable. He's the only one on the channel who knows the condition book. So for example he'll point out that while a horse appears to be taking a massive drop in class that two of the conditions in between were not written at this distance in this book so the drop is actually much minor. He knows every race in the book. So when he's on air he's able to tell you what options they really had for a horse.

[GatetoWire]

Perfect example of a dumb ride in the last race at Belmont today.
Maybe the MTO - Wrought was just inferior but who knows because Elvis Trujillo forgot that El Genio likes to go fast early and stop.

Instead of stalking Elvis goes 22.42 and 45.94 trying to out run El Genio.
He could have been in a perfect spot just off a front runner who always stops.

I can't imagine how you could look at the PP's and decide that this was the best way to win. Just stupid

[Ruffian1]

CJ hit it on the head. All good trainers know the condition book better than anyone else on earth.

Does anyone watch Ron Ellis on TVG? He's awful at handicapping but here's where he's super valuable. He's the only one on the channel who knows the condition book. So for example he'll point out that while a horse appears to be taking a massive drop in class that two of the conditions in between were not written at this distance in this book so the drop is actually much minor. He knows every race in the book. So when he's on air he's able to tell you what options they really had for a horse.

:ThmbUp:

[cbp]

Perfect example of a dumb ride in the last race at Belmont today.
Maybe the MTO - Wrought was just inferior but who knows because Elvis Trujillo forgot that El Genio likes to go fast early and stop.

Instead of stalking Elvis goes 22.42 and 45.94 trying to out run El Genio.
He could have been in a perfect spot just off a front runner who always stops.

I can't imagine how you could look at the PP's and decide that this was the best way to win. Just stupid


Yeah, the ride beat that horse. If he stalks, he wins by 10.

Really?

[v j stauffer]

Perfect example of a dumb ride in the last race at Belmont today.
Maybe the MTO - Wrought was just inferior but who knows because Elvis Trujillo forgot that El Genio likes to go fast early and stop.

Instead of stalking Elvis goes 22.42 and 45.94 trying to out run El Genio.
He could have been in a perfect spot just off a front runner who always stops.

I can't imagine how you could look at the PP's and decide that this was the best way to win. Just stupid

He made the lead without any trouble in pedestrian fractions. He was in front of a horse that in 6 prior starts had NEVER passed a horse in the stretch.

He ended up beaten 11 1/4 lengths. Do you actually think if he'd sat 2nd or 3rd he'd have done anything significant?

Classic example of a person who was flat out wrong not taking ownership and blaming it on the "stupid" jockey.

Handicap Better! :bang:

[ultracapper]

CJ hit it on the head. All good trainers know the condition book better than anyone else on earth.

Does anyone watch Ron Ellis on TVG? He's awful at handicapping but here's where he's super valuable. He's the only one on the channel who knows the condition book. So for example he'll point out that while a horse appears to be taking a massive drop in class that two of the conditions in between were not written at this distance in this book so the drop is actually much minor. He knows every race in the book. So when he's on air he's able to tell you what options they really had for a horse.

Those guys on TVG are "conditions clueless".

[onefast99]

He made the lead without any trouble in pedestrian fractions. He was in front of a horse that in 6 prior starts had NEVER passed a horse in the stretch.

He ended up beaten 11 1/4 lengths. Do you actually think if he'd sat 2nd or 3rd he'd have done anything significant?

Classic example of a person who was flat out wrong not taking ownership and blaming it on the "stupid" jockey.

Handicap Better! :bang:
The best quote I ever heard from a jockey..."even if I had a gun I wouldn't have won the race". Second best..."see if my agent can get you another rider next time out". It isn't always the jockey sometimes it's the horse.

[v j stauffer]

The best quote I ever heard from a jockey..."even if I had a gun I wouldn't have won the race". Second best..."see if my agent can get you another rider next time out". It isn't always the jockey sometimes it's the horse.

Best I ever heard was. Boss he started making the strangest noise around the far turn. Never heard anything like it. Trainers asked what did it sound like. Jock says " eee haw eee haw "

[no breathalyzer]

Best I ever heard was. Boss he started making the strangest noise around the far turn. Never heard anything like it. Trainers asked what did it sound like. Jock says " eee haw eee haw "

:lol:

[GatetoWire]

He made the lead without any trouble in pedestrian fractions. He was in front of a horse that in 6 prior starts had NEVER passed a horse in the stretch.

He ended up beaten 11 1/4 lengths. Do you actually think if he'd sat 2nd or 3rd he'd have done anything significant?

Classic example of a person who was flat out wrong not taking ownership and blaming it on the "stupid" jockey.

Handicap Better! :bang:

You should actually watch some replays before you comment. Look at the horses previous start.
Pedestrian fractions? not for that class and for yesterday.

Now I know where the dumb riders get there instructions. For even stupider jock agents.

[GatetoWire]

Yeah, the ride beat that horse. If he stalks, he wins by 10.

Really?

Not saying he wins by 10 but a novice reading the PP's could see that the El Genio would push him through fast fractions.
As soon as he went to the lead he was cooked.

[therussmeister]

You should actually watch some replays before you comment. Look at the horses previous start.
Pedestrian fractions? not for that class and for yesterday.

Now I know where the dumb riders get there instructions. For even stupider jock agents.
Get where instructions?

Oh! There instructions!

As long as they don't get their instructions there, they're all right.

[EMD4ME]

Get where instructions?

Oh! There instructions!

As long as they don't get their instructions there, they're all right.

Rosario took Castellano to school today in Race 3. Ripped off his pants and had the entire school laught at him....

Dead rail. Joel set the trap from the gate till the 1/2 mile pole. Great ride suckering Castellano up the dead rail and then bursting clear.

Loved the winner but the ride was extra sweet. Great Job Joel.

Those are instructions you can't teach or give.

[v j stauffer]

You should actually watch some replays before you comment. Look at the horses previous start.
Pedestrian fractions? not for that class and for yesterday.

Now I know where the dumb riders get there instructions. For even stupider jock agents.

Their you go. You gaat me! Fromgive my ignerence.

[v j stauffer]

Rosario took Castellano to school today in Race 3. Ripped off his pants and had the entire school laught at him....

Dead rail. Joel set the trap from the gate till the 1/2 mile pole. Great ride suckering Castellano up the dead rail and then bursting clear.

Loved the winner but the ride was extra sweet. Great Job Joel.

Those are instructions you can't teach or give.

Why couldn't one give those instructions?

Why couldn't one teach those instructions?

A 2-1 shot in a 4 horse field.

Nice score!

[EMD4ME]

Why couldn't one give those instructions?

Why couldn't one teach those instructions?

A 2-1 shot in a 4 horse field.

Nice score!

1) Hilarious Vic. You speak as if there are hundreds of "GENIUS" rides a day. I got news for you, there are not.

2) Jockeys are not great at "IF, THEN" scenarios. I knew the rail was dead. I knew 3 was in raging form, I could only hope the jockey on my horse does. 9/10 out of 10 times, they screw it up somehow. So, when the jock rides an awesome race, I do come on here AND I give props when it's due. Getting back to my point, an agent could in theory teach and coach like crazy. If I was one, I would. But there are so many variables in a race, that you can't possibly teach a jock to make the right decision every time. So, when a jock does make multiple smart decisions in a race, I credit the jock 70% 80% or something close to that as the agent can't be in his brain the entire 13 FURLONG trip.

3) Yes, I made one bet Friday. I bet the 8 in race 3 to win. Paid $2.80. That's a nice 40% stock in one minute 9 seconds.

4) I played the 3 to win today and I singled him in the pick 5. My bet cost $42 and I collected $1,813.

Something wrong with that?

Don't make fun of anyone who you think shot a fish in a barrell (2/1 in a 4 horse field).

You never know how they leveraged their single.

[no breathalyzer]

1) Hilarious Vic. You speak as if there are hundreds of "GENIUS" rides a day. I got news for you, there are not.

2) Jockeys are not great at "IF, THEN" scenarios. I knew the rail was dead. I knew 3 was in raging form, I could only hope the jockey on my horse does. 9/10 out of 10 times, they screw it up somehow. So, when the jock rides an awesome race, I do come on here AND I give props when it's due. Getting back to my point, an agent could in theory teach and coach like crazy. If I was one, I would. But there are so many variables in a race, that you can't possibly teach a jock to make the right decision every time. So, when a jock does make multiple smart decisions in a race, I credit the jock 70% 80% or something close to that as the agent can't be in his brain the entire 13 FURLONG trip.

3) Yes, I made one bet Friday. I bet the 8 in race 3 to win. Paid $2.80. That's a nice 40% stock in one minute 9 seconds.

4) I played the 3 to win today and I singled him in the pick 5. My bet cost $42 and I collected $1,813.

Something wrong with that?

Don't make fun of anyone who you think shot a fish in a barrell (2/1 in a 4 horse field).

You never know how they leveraged their single.


You hit that pick 5 too.. good job :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[chenoa]

1) Hilarious Vic. You speak as if there are hundreds of "GENIUS" rides a day. I got news for you, there are not.

2) Jockeys are not great at "IF, THEN" scenarios. I knew the rail was dead. I knew 3 was in raging form, I could only hope the jockey on my horse does. 9/10 out of 10 times, they screw it up somehow. So, when the jock rides an awesome race, I do come on here AND I give props when it's due. Getting back to my point, an agent could in theory teach and coach like crazy. If I was one, I would. But there are so many variables in a race, that you can't possibly teach a jock to make the right decision every time. So, when a jock does make multiple smart decisions in a race, I credit the jock 70% 80% or something close to that as the agent can't be in his brain the entire 13 FURLONG trip.

3) Yes, I made one bet Friday. I bet the 8 in race 3 to win. Paid $2.80. That's a nice 40% stock in one minute 9 seconds.

4) I played the 3 to win today and I singled him in the pick 5. My bet cost $42 and I collected $1,813.

Something wrong with that?

Don't make fun of anyone who you think shot a fish in a barrell (2/1 in a 4 horse field).

You never know how they leveraged their single.

Valid points.......nice hit.

Don't see anything wrong with collecting on a 2/1 in a 4 horse field, all the more power to you. Usually means the 2/5 in the field took a bath. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EMD4ME]

You hit that pick 5 too.. good job :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

Thank you pal. Didn't feel like partaking too much, so played a cold ticket. Wish I went in like I normally do. That would've been punched 5x.

I'll take it though, made the day even better.

BTW, another awesome ride by Rosario got the ticket home in race 4. Had the 5 singled, he rode the outside bias excellently in that race. 1 was best, so I got a bit lucky...

[EMD4ME]

Valid points.......nice hit.

Don't see anything wrong with collecting on a 2/1 in a 4 horse field, all the more power to you. Usually means the 2/5 in the field took a bath. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hated V E Day. Suck up off form fav. Wish these kind would run every day. :jump:

[v j stauffer]

How is it that everyone is a genius and makes huge scores but we only hear about them after the fact?

I can analyze the balls off any race after it's been run.

Nice hit. BTW.

[Kash$]

How is it that everyone is a genius and makes huge scores but we only hear about them after the fact?

I can analyze the balls off any race after it's been run.

Nice hit. BTW.

Emd text me about the 3 horse Wednesday night....Emd is the real deal believe it..

[v j stauffer]

Emd text me about the 3 horse Wednesday night....Emd is the real deal believe it..

Ok. I believe it.

[no breathalyzer]

Ok. I believe it.


:lol::lol::lol::lol:... ok i belive you too

[v j stauffer]

Emd text me about the 3 horse Wednesday night....Emd is the real deal believe it..

He texted you on Wednesday about a horse running in 72 hours in a 4 horse field that was 7/5 on the morning line?

That's advance preparation Holmes! :ThmbUp:

Nice hit.

[no breathalyzer]

He texted you on Wednesday about a horse running in 72 hours in a 4 horse field that was 7/5 on the morning line?

That's advance preparation Holmes! :ThmbUp:

Nice hit.


You want to win you gonna work hard pops :)... you don't at least look at pp's days in advance Vic?

[v j stauffer]

You want to win you gonna work hard pops :)... you don't at least look at pp's days in advance Vic?

Of course. Immersed in tomorrow right now.

[v j stauffer]

A tournament you participated in has ended, here are your results

Tournament: NHC FRIDAY QUALIFIER (1 SPOT) 8/14


Entry 1: Finished in 1st place and earned a payout of $500.00

If you feel there is an error, please feel free to contact us.

See Full Results See More Tournaments

Thanks,
The DerbyWars Team
www.derbywars.com

Need help? Have feedback? Free free to contact Derby Wars!

[EMD4ME]

How is it that everyone is a genius and makes huge scores but we only hear about them after the fact?

I can analyze the balls off any race after it's been run.

Nice hit. BTW.

I commented on a ride. You mocked that it was a 4 horse field and the horse was 2/1. I defended why it mattered to me.

I don't know....If I bet $42 to win, I would've received $126.10. I think I did well betting to win and hitting the pick 5 on 1 singular $42 ticket (for $1,813).

That's how it came up. If you didn't critique why it mattered to me, I never would've mentioned the pick 5.

To be blunt, $1813 is a drop in the bucket winning wager to me. I don't need to come on here and gloat about a $1813 ticket.

[v j stauffer]

I commented on a ride. You mocked that it was a 4 horse field and the horse was 2/1. I defended why it mattered to me.

I don't know....If I bet $42 to win, I would've received $126.10. I think I did well betting to win and hitting the pick 5 on 1 singular $42 ticket (for $1,813).

That's how it came up. If you didn't critique why it mattered to me, I never would've mentioned the pick 5.

To be blunt, $1813 is a drop in the bucket winning wager to me. I don't need to come on here and gloat about a $1813 ticket.

I would. It's a great hit.

BTW if it's a drop in the bucket and meaningless. Why did you make the wager at all? Why not focus on one's that fill the bucket?

[EMD4ME]

I would. It's a great hit.

BTW if it's a drop in the bucket and meaningless. Why did you make the wager at all? Why not focus on one's that fill the bucket?

If you're sincere, thank you Vic.

I was talking about gloating or redboarding or whatever anyone wants to call it. I will never come on here and gloat for a ticket worth $1813. It's just not worth it. I came on to discuss Rosario's great ride.

Heck, I didn't say a word for $30,000 plus in my pocket earlier this year.

To answer your question, I bet $200 on the winner, paid $6.10. Was looking to play small and get value as my mind was elsewhere today, hence the $42 Pick 5 in addition to the win bet. I had to make the win bet as this horse stood out to me and was 1-2 in my world.

Congrats on those Derby War wins as well.

May the horse be with you.

[v j stauffer]

If you're sincere, thank you Vic.

I was talking about gloating or redboarding or whatever anyone wants to call it. I will never come on here and gloat for a ticket worth $1813. It's just not worth it. I came on to discuss Rosario's great ride.

Heck, I didn't say a word for $30,000 plus in my pocket earlier this year.

To answer your question, I bet $200 on the winner, paid $6.10. Was looking to play small and get value as my mind was elsewhere today, hence the $42 Pick 5 in addition to the win bet. I had to make the win bet as this horse stood out to me and was 1-2 in my world.

Congrats on those Derby War wins as well.

May the horse be with you.

Thanks.

I'm always sincere. Get accused of not being so but have no time for that.

Keep up the good work.

See you in the trenches.

[Stillriledup]

Other link in post #119 didn't seem to work.

http://www.paulickreport.com/horseplayers-category/streiff-earns-103484-in-del-mar-handicapping-challenge/

Congrats! Great job, it's hard to hit the board in those tourneys, you gotta be great and just get hot at the right time. Well done!