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Racey
12-19-2014, 08:13 PM
Any updates on this...sucks not being able to play so many tracks due to this.

grimm7
12-19-2014, 09:26 PM
What a mess! We get no updates. A manager at local turf club said no bargaining talks are schedule until after holidays. Does Monarch and Midatlantic Coop know what effect this is having on peoples lives. At my local turf club attendance is like a ghost town. People are not buying racing forms, programs and food. Not many tracks to bet Fairgrounds, Hawthorne and Sunland. Tellers and service staff are being sent home dued to lack of business. Is there any regard to human element in this or is it greed and stupidity? Ready to give this game up I been playing for 42 years.

Tom
12-19-2014, 09:55 PM
Frank Stronach - looking out for the little guy.

:rolleyes: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Stillriledup
12-19-2014, 10:20 PM
Frank Stronach - looking out for the little guy.

:rolleyes: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Uncle Francis is looking out for Himself and "de horsemen". The horsemen get put first with him, after all, its a horsemen's game, bettors and fans are just a sometimes necessary evil.

Racey
12-19-2014, 10:36 PM
with Fairgrounds on Sat...Hawthorne and Parx look like shit ...oh well

NTamm1215
12-19-2014, 11:34 PM
If what has been reported about this impasse is accurate, why is Stronach necessarily in the wrong here? First and foremost, it was reported by both Matt Hegarty of DRF and in an article on Paulick Report that Monarch offered to allow the sites to continue showing the races during negotiations. The Mid-Atlantic Coop declined. This would have been done at the old rate. That seems highly irresponsible of the Mid-Atlantic Coop.

This impasse is ridiculous and highlights another huge problem in an industry loaded with them. Tomorrow is a day where Gulfstream would handle very significant money, but a group of racetracks that collectively take in roughly $5-$8 million on Saturdays are cut out. If it is indeed true that they have abandoned negotiations until after the holidays, then the situation is even more regrettable. It's also not a good sign that basically no reporting on the issue has occurred in the last 10 days. Should be a slow opening week at Santa Anita.

grimm7
12-19-2014, 11:57 PM
Good points! Both sides are wrong in this dispute. Stronach [the man who would be king] for asking for more money in a shrinking racing ecomony and Midatlantic Coop for not accepting the signal while negotiations continued. Midatlantic disputed allegations in Paulick report that they were not offered to keep signal. Heard Parx was offer a descent deal by stronach because they race all year but declined. They want the same prices for signal for all 23 Midatlantic sites because of strenght in numbers. Don't know who is telling the truth? Both sides are being stubborn. Thay have to meet somewhere in the middle to resolve this mess. My point is the customer is caught in the middle with no say while the powers to be are ruining this game that i love. I believe this could take a long time to resolve. Might be a long winter betting wise but things will improve in spring when no one will care. Hope I am wrong! Very frustrated right know. No freedom of choice to bet the track of my choice.

andtheyreoff
12-20-2014, 12:38 AM
The weird thing is that handle at both Gulfstream and Tampa, the two largest tracks impacted by the impasse, was up today from last year (albeit with no Aqueduct). Gulfstream was up about 3.5%, while Tampa skyrocketed 41.6%. Tampa's handle on Wednesday was also up from the comparable day last year.

It'll be interesting to see handle figures for those places tomorrow.

ronsmac
12-20-2014, 01:04 AM
The weird thing is that handle at both Gulfstream and Tampa, the two largest tracks impacted by the impasse, was up today from last year (albeit with no Aqueduct). Gulfstream was up about 3.5%, while Tampa skyrocketed 41.6%. Tampa's handle on Wednesday was also up from the comparable day last year.

It'll be interesting to see handle figures for those places tomorrow.They'll be up again with no Aqueduct and Los al running instead of Hollywood.

the little guy
12-20-2014, 07:10 AM
The weird thing is that handle at both Gulfstream and Tampa, the two largest tracks impacted by the impasse, was up today from last year (albeit with no Aqueduct). Gulfstream was up about 3.5%, while Tampa skyrocketed 41.6%. Tampa's handle on Wednesday was also up from the comparable day last year.

It'll be interesting to see handle figures for those places tomorrow.

Compare Gulfstream to two years ago.

Gulfstream is currently in the beneficial situation of comparing to last year's numbers which were down considerably from the previous year for the first month, or even two, of the meet.

grimm7
12-20-2014, 09:24 AM
If this is true, I haven't seen anything reported. Then they don't need the handle from the 23 tracks in Mid-Atlantic Coop. So this may never be resolved? Withholding signals accomplishes nothing and not good for racing over the long haul.

Tom
12-20-2014, 09:41 AM
Has Stornach ever cared about anything but Stronach?

NTamm1215
12-20-2014, 10:48 AM
The weird thing is that handle at both Gulfstream and Tampa, the two largest tracks impacted by the impasse, was up today from last year (albeit with no Aqueduct). Gulfstream was up about 3.5%, while Tampa skyrocketed 41.6%. Tampa's handle on Wednesday was also up from the comparable day last year.

It'll be interesting to see handle figures for those places tomorrow.

GP's number is actually horrendous when you consider they had Aqueduct to compete with last year but not this year. Some might argue that the steadfast Aqueduct players are out of circulation this year, but GP should still be seeing a 10-15% increase on days like this. The Mid-Atlantic Coop flap is hurting for sure.

rrpic6
12-20-2014, 11:22 AM
This in the front of our program at Mahoning Valley Race Course:

MIDATLANTIC COOPERATIVE, L.L.C. STATEMENT TO MEMBERS
December 17, 2014

The Mid Atlantic Cooperative member racetracks wanted to provide its wagering guests an update as to the status of the ongoing negotiations with Monarch Content Management Company.

Unfortunately, we cannot report any significant progress. A thoughtful, comprehensive proposal was delivered by the Mid Atlantic Cooperative to Monarch on December 8 countering their proposal of December 5. Our proposal addressed Monarch's publicly stated requests-to recognize specific premium content with above market rates. The Mid Atlantic proposal was for multiple years, to ensure stability and deter future disruptions for our simulcast guests.

We are disappointed that Monarch has chosen to not even respond with any counter offer or engage in any meaningful negotiations since our last proposal 9 days ago. In addition, the Mid Atlantic asked Monarch to specify, in writing, the terms of an extension during this negotiation period; despite repeated public claims Monarch would offer such an extension, non has been offered in writing to date.

The Mid Atlantic Cooperative member racetracks are focused on one goal, restoring wagering on the Monarch signals in an expedited manner. The Cooperative has made fair and realistic proposals recognizing Monarch's premium signals, but despite these efforts, we cannot report Monarch shares our desire to resolve this matter.

The Mid Atlantic Cooperative remains committed to be available at any time Monarch wishes to engage in serious discussions on this issue.

For more information contact
Phil O'Hara
(859) 305-0630
pohara@ptoharajr.com

RR

grimm7
12-20-2014, 11:34 AM
Thanks for the update!

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 11:46 AM
Uncle Francis is looking out for Himself and "de horsemen". The horsemen get put first with him, after all, its a horsemen's game, bettors and fans are just a sometimes necessary evil.


Sure. You mean like in Maryland where he promised for YEARS , to bid for slots ON SITE and then when it was time, he "FORGOT" to put the check in with the submission, so he was disqualified?

So slots go off site and the horsemen lose millions in purse revenue.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 11:49 AM
Has Stornach ever cared about anything but Stronach?

Well put.

lamboguy
12-20-2014, 11:58 AM
Sure. You mean like in Maryland where he promised for YEARS , to bid for slots ON SITE and then when it was time, he "FORGOT" to put the check in with the submission, so he was disqualified?

So slots go off site and the horsemen lose millions in purse revenue.not getting slots is probably the very best thing that ever happened to Maryland racing.

now they are getting slot aided purses without having the slots onsite and very little chance of the state ever taking away those revenues unlike what is going on now in Delaware, Pennsylvania and West Virginia.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 12:18 PM
not getting slots is probably the very best thing that ever happened to Maryland racing.

now they are getting slot aided purses without having the slots onsite and very little chance of the state ever taking away those revenues unlike what is going on now in Delaware, Pennsylvania and West Virginia.

Yes, they are trying to reduce the amount but look how much they have received so far as compared to what the Md. horsemen have received.

Horsemen will get there nibble, but never their fair share in which to enhance the product to make it better for the gambler.

Horsemen have been jerked around in Md. by management since probably before 1975 but I will start there because I lived it. The break came when Frank DeFrancis bought the track. But before he could really get it rolling, he passed away. It was well on it's way.

After that,it slowly fell. There was only one Frank, and he knew the legislature better than anyone. It had a real chance to be something great but we will never know.

Once the legislature turned on Joe De. , there was nothing left to do but sell. So enter Stronach. Glad I am not a part of that. His shallow promises to horsemen across the U.S. is well documented. He goes back on his word every chance he gets.

cj
12-20-2014, 12:26 PM
Horsemen will get there nibble, but never their fair share in which to enhance the product to make it better for the gambler.



I agree with a lot you've said here, but not this. When has that even happened when slots came about?

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 12:36 PM
I agree with a lot you've said here, but not this. When has that even happened when slots came about?

I apologize but can you rewrite your question. I am not sure of it. Thanks.

cj
12-20-2014, 01:00 PM
I apologize but can you rewrite your question. I am not sure of it. Thanks.

... to enhance the product to make it better for the gambler..


Never once has this come to fruition as long as I can remember. Purses are enhanced for horsemen, nothing changes for the bettor. Takeout doesn't drop and often rises. Field sizes shrink. A few supertrainers that take advantage of these enhanced purses dominate every circuit in the country. None of that is better for the bettor.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 01:31 PM
Well I just typed a very full explanation but my 15 minutes were up so it vanishes.

No way to retrieve it I guess.

lamboguy
12-20-2014, 01:47 PM
Never once has this come to fruition as long as I can remember. Purses are enhanced for horsemen, nothing changes for the bettor. Takeout doesn't drop and often rises. Field sizes shrink. A few supertrainers that take advantage of these enhanced purses dominate every circuit in the country. None of that is better for the bettor.those super trainer's only scare bettor's and owner's away from the game. but the people that don't wager 6 cents love them.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 02:28 PM
Slots were in the works in Md. for decades before they finally came. That said, horseman's groups worked for years to try and get it right if ever given the chance.

Please don't see the lack of effort from Del., C.T. or others and assume that it was going to be that way in Md. Maybe it would have been, but an awful lot of us spent a lot of free time working and planning for that to not be the case.

The idea was to raise the bottom price for claimers and maidens as well as the n/w of 2 and 3. The thought was that the cheapest horses could go to C.T. or Penn or whatever. We would offer higher claiming price open, beaten and maiden races that would attract horses of better quality away from C.T., Penn or whoever. With purses higher than surrounding tracks, more ship ins would occur. More stabling was to be added. A training track across the street from Laurel was planned and the land already bought.

Promises were made that long time supporters of Md. racing( the smaller outfits ) would not be bumped for the big guys to roll in after decades of support at sometimes disgraceful purse offerings.

All this was up to 1999. That is when I started to give less of my time as I was leaning towards leaving and starting a new career. Not that these talks did not continue , but I was not a part of them.

So higher purses would mean larger fields. Horsemen were asked to allow a few less dates per year . That would help recovery of the horses as well as the tracks bottom line. The track promised to pass along added revenue to the bettor by either lowering the takeout, free admission, free parking, or whatever. That helped the gambler who was now wanting to wager in Md. on the bigger fields. In theory, it was a win for management, horsemen and bettors. Everyone would benefit.

These thoughts were in process for years. Now I can't speak as to what exactly happened after that and I left the game in 2001. What I can speak to is that Md. really had a chance to be different . But they blew it. With purses where they are now and for the foreseeable future, all they have is the same old same old. Nobody wins. Everybody loses. It's a darn shame.

When I talk to my friends that are still at the track they all say the same thing. Man did you get out at the right time. Yeah, I guess I did. But what a shame. It did not have to be like that. Too bad.

I hope that better explains why I said what I said.

cj
12-20-2014, 02:41 PM
Slots were in the works in Md. for decades before they finally came. That said, horseman's groups worked for years to try and get it right if ever given the chance.

Please don't see the lack of effort from Del., C.T. or others and assume that it was going to be that way in Md. Maybe it would have been, but an awful lot of us spent a lot of free time working and planning for that to not be the case.

The idea was to raise the bottom price for claimers and maidens as well as the n/w of 2 and 3. The thought was that the cheapest horses could go to C.T. or Penn or whatever. We would offer higher claiming price open, beaten and maiden races that would attract horses of better quality away from C.T., Penn or whoever. With purses higher than surrounding tracks, more ship ins would occur. More stabling was to be added. A training track across the street from Laurel was planned and the land already bought.

Promises were made that long time supporters of Md. racing( the smaller outfits ) would not be bumped for the big guys to roll in after decades of support at sometimes disgraceful purse offerings.

All this was up to 1999. That is when I started to give less of my time as I was leaning towards leaving and starting a new career. Not that these talks did not continue , but I was not a part of them.

So higher purses would mean larger fields. Horsemen were asked to allow a few less dates per year . That would help recovery of the horses as well as the tracks bottom line. The track promised to pass along added revenue to the bettor by either lowering the takeout, free admission, free parking, or whatever. That helped the gambler who was now wanting to wager in Md. on the bigger fields. In theory, it was a win for management, horsemen and bettors. Everyone would benefit.

These thoughts were in process for years. Now I can't speak as to what exactly happened after that and I left the game in 2001. What I can speak to is that Md. really had a chance to be different . But they blew it. With purses where they are now and for the foreseeable future, all they have is the same old same old. Nobody wins. Everybody loses. It's a darn shame.

When I talk to my friends that are still at the track they all say the same thing. Man did you get out at the right time. Yeah, I guess I did. But what a shame. It did not have to be like that. Too bad.

I hope that better explains why I said what I said.

I'm from Baltimore, got involved with racing before joining the Air Force. I know the history even after I left.

Maybe Maryland would have gotten it right, but I have no faith that would have happened. I've seen all the promises everywhere else and it never helps bettors in the end. Maybe Maryland would have been the exception, but we'll never know.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 02:55 PM
I'm from Baltimore, got involved with racing before joining the Air Force. I know the history even after I left.

Maybe Maryland would have gotten it right, but I have no faith that would have happened. I've seen all the promises everywhere else and it never helps bettors in the end. Maybe Maryland would have been the exception, but we'll never know.

Well CJ, you sure could be right. I can't blame you if you have been in Md. for years and been let down as often as bettors have. I promise you that I really did fight for you back in my day.

If you attended often, I am sure I would recognize you. I was there every day for 27 years and trained plenty along the way. I seemed to know everybody. Did you follow racing there in the 70s , 80's or 90's?

cj
12-20-2014, 03:00 PM
Well CJ, you sure could be right. I can't blame you if you have been in Md. for years and been let down as often as bettors have. I promise you that I really did fight for you back in my day.

If you attended often, I am sure I would recognize you. I was there every day for 27 years and trained plenty along the way. I seemed to know everybody. Did you follow racing there in the 70s , 80's or 90's?

I left when I was 18, but I was there often from 81-85. First trip for racing was going to Bowie with Larry Collmus. I almost always went when home on leave too, and was stationed at Andrews from 96-98 and was at Laurel many times.

Sadly, I can't recall the last time I've been to a Maryland track. Probably Pimlico a few times when visiting.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 03:34 PM
I left when I was 18, but I was there often from 81-85. First trip for racing was going to Bowie with Larry Collmus. I almost always went when home on leave too, and was stationed at Andrews from 96-98 and was at Laurel many times.

Sadly, I can't recall the last time I've been to a Maryland track. Probably Pimlico a few times when visiting.

I have to admit it is hard for me to go back. So many memories.

If you were around in 83 maybe you remember jockey Mike Hunter.

I was the trainer that taught him how to ride. He won his 1st race in 83 at Pimlico on my horse. His mom was my pony girl and I gave him a chance to learn from the ground up. It worked out pretty well for him. He is the only jock I ever worked with. Quit while I was ahead. Lol.

cj
12-20-2014, 03:41 PM
I have to admit it is hard for me to go back. So many memories.

If you were around in 83 maybe you remember jockey Mike Hunter.

I was the trainer that taught him how to ride. He won his 1st race in 83 at Pimlico on my horse. His mom was my pony girl and I gave him a chance to learn from the ground up. It worked out pretty well for him. He is the only jock I ever worked with. Quit while I was ahead. Lol.

Sure, I remember him. Bill Passmore was a big rider when I first started, as was Donnie Miller. This was all before Kent and then Edgar dominated.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 03:55 PM
Sure, I remember him. Bill Passmore was a big rider when I first started, as was Donnie Miller. This was all before Kent and then Edgar dominated.

Do you have the last day at Bowie key chain with some track sand in it? Lol.

I still have mine.

JustRalph
12-20-2014, 03:57 PM
Sure. You mean like in Maryland where he promised for YEARS , to bid for slots ON SITE and then when it was time, he "FORGOT" to put the check in with the submission, so he was disqualified?

So slots go off site and the horsemen lose millions in purse revenue.

I sat in on meetings of the committee that eventually got the slots at the mall. For over a year before the vote. My wife's business was invited to participate in the discussion. When the talk of Laurel and Stronach came up, that rich guy who ended up winning the slots deal (can't remember his name) laughed out loud and told us Stronach didn't have the cash. He didn't think for a minute Frankie would pony up.

A few meetings later the guy that ran the "anti-slots" neighborhood group was cussing because they had spent 6k on flyers etc that Laurel had promised to pay for. He told us Frankie sent them a check for $600 :lol:

cj
12-20-2014, 04:02 PM
Do you have the last day at Bowie key chain with some track sand in it? Lol.

I still have mine.

No, sounds familiar but I don't have it now. I do have an Xtra Heat bobblehead from Laurel though.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 04:04 PM
I sat in on meetings of the committee that eventually got the slots at the mall. For over a year before the vote. My wife's business was invited to participate in the discussion. When the talk of Laurel and Stronach came up, that rich guy who ended up winning the slots deal (can't remember his name) laughed out loud and told us Stronach didn't have the cash. He didn't think for a minute Frankie would pony up.

A few meetings later the guy that ran the "anti-slots" neighborhood group was cussing because they had spent 6k on flyers etc that Laurel had promised to pay for. He told us Frankie sent them a check for $600 :lol:

Wow ! Thanks for sharing that. It was probably good I left before that dope took over. Have to think I would have said something that would have lost my stalls over.
Promised 6k , got 600. Sounds about right with that guy.:D

ronsmac
12-20-2014, 07:10 PM
Yes, they are trying to reduce the amount but look how much they have received so far as compared to what the Md. horsemen have received.

Horsemen will get there nibble, but never their fair share in which to enhance the product to make it better for the gambler.

Horsemen have been jerked around in Md. by management since probably before 1975 but I will start there because I lived it. The break came when Frank DeFrancis bought the track. But before he could really get it rolling, he passed away. It was well on it's way.

After that,it slowly fell. There was only one Frank, and he knew the legislature better than anyone. It had a real chance to be something great but we will never know.

Once the legislature turned on Joe De. , there was nothing left to do but sell. So enter Stronach. Glad I am not a part of that. His shallow promises to horsemen across the U.S. is well documented. He goes back on his word every chance he gets.
It may have been a little better if Frank Defrancis hadn't passed away, but it was never going to be something great. He received a huge break in the states cut of the take when he bought the tracks and made some improvements. I still remember all the trees he planted outside of Pimlico , and in the early 90s Glendening took millions from the lottery and put it into purses. That didn't improve the product much, and takeout was eventually raised when that money was taken away. Other than the players card , which got you free admission of Friday and Sunday, not much was given to the bettors.

Ruffian1
12-20-2014, 07:55 PM
It may have been a little better if Frank Defrancis hadn't passed away, but it was never going to be something great. He received a huge break in the states cut of the take when he bought the tracks and made some improvements. I still remember all the trees he planted outside of Pimlico , and in the early 90s Glendening took millions from the lottery and put it into purses. That didn't improve the product much, and takeout was eventually raised when that money was taken away. Other than the players card , which got you free admission of Friday and Sunday, not much was given to the bettors.

Huge? Really. It barely kept us where we were. Purses stayed the same if I am not mistaken and they were already lacking.

Those wonderful amounts of money given kept the doors open and thats about it. How could he have given more when there was nothing to give?

And to say it might not have been great tells me you knew something that I did not about Franks vision and plan. Can you enlighten me?

NTamm1215
12-20-2014, 07:56 PM
This in the front of our program at Mahoning Valley Race Course:

MIDATLANTIC COOPERATIVE, L.L.C. STATEMENT TO MEMBERS
December 17, 2014

The Mid Atlantic Cooperative member racetracks wanted to provide its wagering guests an update as to the status of the ongoing negotiations with Monarch Content Management Company.

Unfortunately, we cannot report any significant progress. A thoughtful, comprehensive proposal was delivered by the Mid Atlantic Cooperative to Monarch on December 8 countering their proposal of December 5. Our proposal addressed Monarch's publicly stated requests-to recognize specific premium content with above market rates. The Mid Atlantic proposal was for multiple years, to ensure stability and deter future disruptions for our simulcast guests.

We are disappointed that Monarch has chosen to not even respond with any counter offer or engage in any meaningful negotiations since our last proposal 9 days ago. In addition, the Mid Atlantic asked Monarch to specify, in writing, the terms of an extension during this negotiation period; despite repeated public claims Monarch would offer such an extension, non has been offered in writing to date.

The Mid Atlantic Cooperative member racetracks are focused on one goal, restoring wagering on the Monarch signals in an expedited manner. The Cooperative has made fair and realistic proposals recognizing Monarch's premium signals, but despite these efforts, we cannot report Monarch shares our desire to resolve this matter.

The Mid Atlantic Cooperative remains committed to be available at any time Monarch wishes to engage in serious discussions on this issue.

For more information contact
Phil O'Hara
(859) 305-0630
pohara@ptoharajr.com

RR

This letter feels a little disingenuous.

ronsmac
12-20-2014, 08:32 PM
Huge? Really. It barely kept us where we were. Purses stayed the same if I am not mistaken and they were already lacking.

Those wonderful amounts of money given kept the doors open and thats about it. How could he have given more when there was nothing to give?

And to say it might not have been great tells me you knew something that I did not about Franks vision and plan. Can you enlighten me?Yes, in the 70s the state took 5.34% of a 15% takeout, leaving less than 10 for track and horseman, late 70s state took 4.09% of a blended take of approx. 18.5% take , leaving 14-14.5% for track and horseman. When Frank bought the track the state agreed to lower their cut to 0.5% and more 25% triples were added, increasing the blended take to the 20% range, leaving 19 - 19.5% to tracks and horseman. In 1997 a bill added 5 million to purses to be split 70% to throughbreds 30% to harness, or it may have been 80% to thoroughbreds.

proximity
12-20-2014, 09:26 PM
Sure. You mean like in Maryland where he promised for YEARS , to bid for slots ON SITE and then when it was time, he "FORGOT" to put the check in with the submission, so he was disqualified?

So slots go off site and the horsemen lose millions in purse revenue.

after frank's energy drink and the horse wizard you could say we shoulda seen this coming, but really uncle frank missed an easy layup on a lowered basket here. sad.

proximity
12-20-2014, 09:42 PM
A few meetings later the guy that ran the "anti-slots" neighborhood group was cussing because they had spent 6k on flyers etc that Laurel had promised to pay for. He told us Frankie sent them a check for $600 :lol:

:lol: indeed!!

when you lay with dogs you're gonna get fleas and when you lay down with uncle frank you're gonna get @#$%^&.

sad thing is that those slots are so far around the back of the mall that there should be a maryland state rest area halfway between the exit and the casino. poor slots hater didn't have that much to worry about.

Ruffian1
12-21-2014, 09:12 AM
Yes, in the 70s the state took 5.34% of a 15% takeout, leaving less than 10 for track and horseman, late 70s state took 4.09% of a blended take of approx. 18.5% take , leaving 14-14.5% for track and horseman. When Frank bought the track the state agreed to lower their cut to 0.5% and more 25% triples were added, increasing the blended take to the 20% range, leaving 19 - 19.5% to tracks and horseman. In 1997 a bill added 5 million to purses to be split 70% to throughbreds 30% to harness, or it may have been 80% to thoroughbreds.

While those numbers sound like a windfall profit for horsemen and management, these cuts were necessary because of a dwindling handle do to a horse shortage as well as massive competition from Penn, N.J. Del., etc.
The purses were disgraceful.

In 1979, with a 4.09 state take , leaving approx. 14% for horsemen and management, the purse for an "A other than" allowance race in Md. was 6,000. Open claimers for 14.5k were 5,300 . Not to the winner, that was the full purse. 3,180 to the winner, gross of course. The net would be at least 20% less. One daily double, an exacta in races 3-8 and one triple race in the last was what was offered.

As that revenue started to come in, amounts were earmarked for certain projects. The purses were bumped up, but only to barely keep up with or be within striking distance of other jurisdictions. And of course, everyone wanted a piece of it. The mutual clerks, valets, gate crew, parkers, etc. demanded higher wages, as did everyone. They were forcing strikes and shutting down racing, then signing 5 year contracts . As the money went up, so did everything else. Blacksmiths shoeing prices doubled in about 10-12 years. As did oats, hay, straw, and backstretch workers salaries, etc. So in actuality , what it did was give everyone a little bit more, but not nearly what was required .

Frank spent what was earmarked for facilities on the sports palace, replay booths, and trying to upgrade the tracks so a fan might think about wanting to be there. But the bottom line was and is, that it was not nearly enough to anything more than hang around and keep the doors open. Nobody prospered . Certainly not horsemen, and I can promise you that.

When racing received money from the lottery, it was because other states had slots and were killing us. Smaller fields and horses leaving for better purses. Owners were leaving the game in droves and the breeding industry in Md. was on life support. Too many slots opponents to get that passed so the " millions" that the track received were nothing more than a band aid on a bullet wound.

The bottom line is, what you showed me was true and accurate , but it was not Frank's vision for what he hoped to achieve. And we could go around and around about who got screwed the most and solve nothing.

The reason I defend him is because years before he bought Laurel, he and I would sit and sit and sit on medication committee's, horseman's committee's for nights and plenty of weekends trying to do something right for Md. racing. I was very young back then and he befriended me when few older trainers or owners would. He taught me quite a bit about many things. I admired him and most importantly, he was a friend. Because of that, I will defend him all day long.

If you or any gamblers feel cheated or abused because of what has happened in Md. racing, join the club because I do as well. But please don't think that I am trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes by going on and on about this. I am not.

All this started with a thread about a track owner that seems to do everything he can for self gain and very little for horsemen and gamblers except promise and fail to produce on those promises. Frank Defrancis's name does not even belong in the same thread as this clown IMO.

So if I have helped you see how things were from another angle, than this was worth while as I truly want to help people see a side of the game few get to see. But anyone reading this has to want to believe a former horseman in order to trust one word of this. Hopefully , that is you or someone else that reads this. If not, than all this was a waste of time because no matter what I said, skepticism and distrust would reign. That part, is out of my control. Best of luck to you in the future.

ronsmac
12-21-2014, 03:08 PM
While those numbers sound like a windfall profit for horsemen and management, these cuts were necessary because of a dwindling handle do to a horse shortage as well as massive competition from Penn, N.J. Del., etc.
The purses were disgraceful.

In 1979, with a 4.09 state take , leaving approx. 14% for horsemen and management, the purse for an "A other than" allowance race in Md. was 6,000. Open claimers for 14.5k were 5,300 . Not to the winner, that was the full purse. 3,180 to the winner, gross of course. The net would be at least 20% less. One daily double, an exacta in races 3-8 and one triple race in the last was what was offered.

As that revenue started to come in, amounts were earmarked for certain projects. The purses were bumped up, but only to barely keep up with or be within striking distance of other jurisdictions. And of course, everyone wanted a piece of it. The mutual clerks, valets, gate crew, parkers, etc. demanded higher wages, as did everyone. They were forcing strikes and shutting down racing, then signing 5 year contracts . As the money went up, so did everything else. Blacksmiths shoeing prices doubled in about 10-12 years. As did oats, hay, straw, and backstretch workers salaries, etc. So in actuality , what it did was give everyone a little bit more, but not nearly what was required .

Frank spent what was earmarked for facilities on the sports palace, replay booths, and trying to upgrade the tracks so a fan might think about wanting to be there. But the bottom line was and is, that it was not nearly enough to anything more than hang around and keep the doors open. Nobody prospered . Certainly not horsemen, and I can promise you that.

When racing received money from the lottery, it was because other states had slots and were killing us. Smaller fields and horses leaving for better purses. Owners were leaving the game in droves and the breeding industry in Md. was on life support. Too many slots opponents to get that passed so the " millions" that the track received were nothing more than a band aid on a bullet wound.

The bottom line is, what you showed me was true and accurate , but it was not Frank's vision for what he hoped to achieve. And we could go around and around about who got screwed the most and solve nothing.

The reason I defend him is because years before he bought Laurel, he and I would sit and sit and sit on medication committee's, horseman's committee's for nights and plenty of weekends trying to do something right for Md. racing. I was very young back then and he befriended me when few older trainers or owners would. He taught me quite a bit about many things. I admired him and most importantly, he was a friend. Because of that, I will defend him all day long.

If you or any gamblers feel cheated or abused because of what has happened in Md. racing, join the club because I do as well. But please don't think that I am trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes by going on and on about this. I am not.

All this started with a thread about a track owner that seems to do everything he can for self gain and very little for horsemen and gamblers except promise and fail to produce on those promises. Frank Defrancis's name does not even belong in the same thread as this clown IMO.

So if I have helped you see how things were from another angle, than this was worth while as I truly want to help people see a side of the game few get to see. But anyone reading this has to want to believe a former horseman in order to trust one word of this. Hopefully , that is you or someone else that reads this. If not, than all this was a waste of time because no matter what I said, skepticism and distrust would reign. That part, is out of my control. Best of luck to you in the future. I wasn't comparing the two, I was just saying Md was never going to be "great".Larger and larger chunks went to purses , and it never improved the product much from a gambling perspective. That's just my opinion.

thespaah
12-21-2014, 03:53 PM
I agree with a lot you've said here, but not this. When has that even happened when slots came about?
:ThmbUp:

thespaah
12-21-2014, 03:57 PM
Well I just typed a very full explanation but my 15 minutes were up so it vanishes.

No way to retrieve it I guess.
Post the bullet points then.
Oh, next time you sense the time out is close and you don't think you can finish your thought, "copy" what you have typed. Then finish up after the time out.

Ruffian1
12-21-2014, 04:57 PM
Post the bullet points then.
Oh, next time you sense the time out is close and you don't think you can finish your thought, "copy" what you have typed. Then finish up after the time out.

I did in post 25.

I will copy so as to be able to paste next time if I am editing. I did not realize the clock was running.

The original was much more detailed but that's ok.

Thanks for the heads up though. When it comes to computer stuff, I need all the help and advise I can get.

thespaah
12-21-2014, 06:07 PM
I did in post 25.

I will copy so as to be able to paste next time if I am editing. I did not realize the clock was running.

The original was much more detailed but that's ok.

Thanks for the heads up though. When it comes to computer stuff, I need all the help and advise I can get.
Ahh...No worries.
I enjoyed your insight into the situation.
It was an eye opener.
I am usually pretty quick to jump on the horsemen because it always seems they are the party that is blocking this or that.
Part of that is because for a short period in my life I was a backstretch worker on the harness side. I heard all the carping from horsemen. I also learned that horsemen generally have a particular disdain for bettors.
I could be descriptive in the language they used when referring to the bettors but PA won't like it too much. Use your imagination.
Let's just say the trainers I knew used "colorful metaphors"....A LOT.

AndyC
12-21-2014, 06:18 PM
To me slot revenue is the equivalent of welfare for the racetracks. What does it say about the business model of racing when people are complaining because the tracks did not get their "fair share" of slot revenue?

cj
12-21-2014, 06:23 PM
To me slot revenue is the equivalent of welfare for the racetracks. What does it say about the business model of racing when people are complaining because the tracks did not get their "fair share" of slot revenue?

The argument was always that tracks deserve some for allowing slots to be legalized. I never bought that for a second. Tracks didn't get a cut of the lottery. Your welfare characterization is spot on, been saying the exact same thing for years.

Ruffian1
12-21-2014, 07:46 PM
Ahh...No worries.
I enjoyed your insight into the situation.
It was an eye opener.
I am usually pretty quick to jump on the horsemen because it always seems they are the party that is blocking this or that.
Part of that is because for a short period in my life I was a backstretch worker on the harness side. I heard all the carping from horsemen. I also learned that horsemen generally have a particular disdain for bettors.
I could be descriptive in the language they used when referring to the bettors but PA won't like it too much. Use your imagination.
Let's just say the trainers I knew used "colorful metaphors"....A LOT.

Any horseman that has a disdain for the customer is simply showing their ignorance. I was not a 2nd generation horseman, just a guy that took a year off to work on the backside. It turned into a half a lifetime.
Maybe it was because I was a customer prior to being a backstretch employee and on up through the ranks. But as a rule, I always seemed to see things differently than my older fellow horsemen. Back then it was rare to be in your 20's and train much less 21.

Either way, for a trainer to say something like that just shows how dumb they are. And there were plenty of them around, especially way back in my day.

ronsmac
12-21-2014, 07:48 PM
The argument was always that tracks deserve some for allowing slots to be legalized. I never bought that for a second. Tracks didn't get a cut of the lottery. Your welfare characterization is spot on, been saying the exact same thing for years.
Maryland tracks got lottery money for 3 or 4 years until the politicians woke up.

Ruffian1
12-21-2014, 07:49 PM
To me slot revenue is the equivalent of welfare for the racetracks. What does it say about the business model of racing when people are complaining because the tracks did not get their "fair share" of slot revenue?

Absolutely !

NTamm1215
12-22-2014, 08:03 PM
Looks unlikely that this will get cleared up before SA starts on Friday. Absolutely ridiculous.

SoCalCircuit
12-22-2014, 08:16 PM
It really is getting absurd. I'd like to know which side is lying about Monarch offering to extend the current rates during the contract negotiations. Whichever side is lying to the public about that really couldn't care less about the horseplayer and it's very unfortunate.

NTamm1215
12-22-2014, 08:51 PM
It really is getting absurd. I'd like to know which side is lying about Monarch offering to extend the current rates during the contract negotiations. Whichever side is lying to the public about that really couldn't care less about the horseplayer and it's very unfortunate.

Agreed. When one side says, "we offered it" and the other side says "we never got it in writing" both sides just look dumb.

Stillriledup
12-22-2014, 08:58 PM
It really is getting absurd. I'd like to know which side is lying about Monarch offering to extend the current rates during the contract negotiations. Whichever side is lying to the public about that really couldn't care less about the horseplayer and it's very unfortunate.

To me, it doesn't matter who's lying, Monarch is at fault because they're the ones trying to raise the price. None of this would be happening if they werent greedy and trying to squeeze blood out of a stone, what they are doing is not helping the industry its the actions of a company that aren't putting the game first.

thespaah
12-22-2014, 09:06 PM
The argument was always that tracks deserve some for allowing slots to be legalized. I never bought that for a second. Tracks didn't get a cut of the lottery. Your welfare characterization is spot on, been saying the exact same thing for years.
For a time, I was drinking the slots kool-aid. I thought slots money would go to purses and the result would be larger and more competitive fields.
STOOOOOOOPID.....
With the proliferation of slots states with these middle of the road and low rung race tracks paying $15k purses to $7,500 claimers and $40k MSW, outfits have so many places to race. So the pool of horses is spread too thinly. The result is
5-6 horse fields with one or two of them getting hammered to odds on. Yeah, unless one has a five figure & up bankroll, those are real fun to bet....I'd rather go to the dentist. "Screw the novacaine, Doc. I was gonna bet the 4th at Penn National."
The horsemen? Oh they HAVE to love these small fields because 5 or 6 in a race dramatically increases their chances of scoring a big check.....

Tall One
12-22-2014, 09:37 PM
I have to admit it is hard for me to go back. So many memories.

If you were around in 83 maybe you remember jockey Mike Hunter.

I was the trainer that taught him how to ride. He won his 1st race in 83 at Pimlico on my horse. His mom was my pony girl and I gave him a chance to learn from the ground up. It worked out pretty well for him. He is the only jock I ever worked with. Quit while I was ahead. Lol.


Off topic for a second, but by chance did Hunter move his tack out to California? I ask because David Hoffmans gave a leg up to a Mike Hunter on several of his charges including my first "big" hit on a 3yo colt, Oakhurst, breaking his maiden back in 96..horse was owned by the Kasters and Nathan Fox out at Wafare Farm just outside of town here. Horse went off at 8-1 and won from me to you.

Ruffian1
12-23-2014, 08:26 AM
Off topic for a second, but by chance did Hunter move his tack out to California? I ask because David Hoffmans gave a leg up to a Mike Hunter on several of his charges including my first "big" hit on a 3yo colt, Oakhurst, breaking his maiden back in 96..horse was owned by the Kasters and Nathan Fox out at Wafare Farm just outside of town here. Horse went off at 8-1 and won from me to you.

Yes, he did for a while. He moved around to several places across the U.S. in his time. That was him. I also saw him in the gate on another horse in either the Seabiscuit movie or the Secretariat movie. Can't remember which one. He had that same look he always had . I really did laugh out loud when I saw him.

He was a real nice kid . And he saved his money and did very well for himself. Something worth mentioning these days as so many seem to get lost along the way.

Thanks for asking.

Tall One
12-23-2014, 08:59 AM
Yes, he did for a while. He moved around to several places across the U.S. in his time. That was him. I also saw him in the gate on another horse in either the Seabiscuit movie or the Secretariat movie. Can't remember which one. He had that same look he always had . I really did laugh out loud when I saw him.

He was a real nice kid . And he saved his money and did very well for himself. Something worth mentioning these days as so many seem to get lost along the way.

Thanks for asking.


Good stuff, Ruffian...:ThmbUp:

Horse was well regarded by his connections (which one isn't) but he'd sprinted twice on the dirt and hadnt really "showed much"..and then Hoffmans entered him in a MSW grassy mile at Hollywood with Hunter up for the third time. Trainer called the connections that morning, and said "Bet him". I wanna say his m/l was 12 or 15-1...and off at the afforementioned 8-1.

Hoffmans called after the race and said "GD'it, Fox...who didnt you tell about him.." :D

Ruffian1
12-23-2014, 09:11 AM
Good stuff, Ruffian...:ThmbUp:

Horse was well regarded by his connections (which one isn't) but he'd sprinted twice on the dirt and hadnt really "showed much"..and then Hoffmans entered him in a MSW grassy mile at Hollywood with Hunter up for the third time. Trainer called the connections that morning, and said "Bet him". I wanna say his m/l was 12 or 15-1...and off at the afforementioned 8-1.

Hoffmans called after the race and said "GD'it, Fox...who didnt you tell about him.." :D

Great story !

Love it.

Mike sounds like he was a perfect fit for that horse. He was a patient type rider that got a horse to relax within themselves, so a long on the grass off 2 sprints was tailor made for a jock like Mike.
Mike was tall, so a long hold and a deep seat was his forte. He got pretty low on a horse for his height as well with his back being parallel to the ground .

NTamm1215
12-23-2014, 11:33 AM
To me, it doesn't matter who's lying, Monarch is at fault because they're the ones trying to raise the price. None of this would be happening if they werent greedy and trying to squeeze blood out of a stone, what they are doing is not helping the industry its the actions of a company that aren't putting the game first.

This is proof anyone who supports Monarch properly pricing their signals is correct. The members of the Mid-Atlantic Coop would reportedly still retain two-thirds of every dollar in takeout, yet this is Monarch's fault?

SoCalCircuit
12-23-2014, 06:40 PM
To me, it doesn't matter who's lying, Monarch is at fault because they're the ones trying to raise the price. None of this would be happening if they werent greedy and trying to squeeze blood out of a stone, what they are doing is not helping the industry its the actions of a company that aren't putting the game first.

I agree to an extent - and I don't know all the details about who is demanding what during these negotiations. But if Monarch really did offer to extend the current rates during negotiations, then I do think it is very irresponsible of them to turn this down especially when Mid Atlantic is barely offering any tracks worth betting this time of year. My OTB (a parx affiliate turf club) was literally dead the two times I stopped by this week.

Stillriledup
12-23-2014, 07:04 PM
This is proof anyone who supports Monarch properly pricing their signals is correct. The members of the Mid-Atlantic Coop would reportedly still retain two-thirds of every dollar in takeout, yet this is Monarch's fault?

Properly pricing? Seems like greed is coming before the health of the game itself. They get blamed for that.

proximity
12-23-2014, 08:03 PM
My OTB (a parx affiliate turf club) was literally dead the two times I stopped by this week.

the whole thing is basically dead to me and that is sad.

i remember anxiously looking forward to the opening of the center city otb down on market st during my formative years before later returning to penn national and "inventing" pace figures.

then the excitement of going to an actual brick and mortar bookstore and finding beyer on speed and even quinn's figure handicapping!

omg!! these guys make pace figures too!! :D

i understand there are robots on here that enjoy sitting around with a computer and a tv or two and possibly not leaving the house for a few days.

maybe the term "robot" is overly critical because if they truly enjoy this life, then who am i to judge? but pure handicapping and betting was never what the whole experience was about to me. the travel to and from the tracks and even otbs, the friendships formed, and the camaraderie with the other players and even staff of the tracks. seeing the horses live and seeing players swear at tvs showing a race 1,000 miles away.

it's all over now.

a dozen miserable smokers jammed in a windowless afterthought of a room with undersized desks. a half dozen program readers sitting 35 yards apart in the clubhouse. and tonyk@hsh overlooking the wire in the dining room like dr seuss's the once-ler character peering out over what was once a beautiful valley of truffula trees.

this describes too many nights at my home track today.

PaceAdvantage
12-24-2014, 02:40 PM
Well I just typed a very full explanation but my 15 minutes were up so it vanishes.

No way to retrieve it I guess.15 minutes? Not sure what you mean by that...this board doesn't automatically log you out after 15 minutes...so I'm not sure why or how you lost your reply.

Now I see someone else offered you a way to avoid this happening in the future. I had no idea my board only gives you 15 minutes to compose a post. Weird...after 15 years of doing this, I'm still learning things... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ruffian1
12-24-2014, 02:59 PM
15 minutes? Not sure what you mean by that...this board doesn't automatically log you out after 15 minutes...so I'm not sure why or how you lost your reply.

Now I see someone else offered you a way to avoid this happening in the future. I had no idea my board only gives you 15 minutes to compose a post. Weird...after 15 years of doing this, I'm still learning things... :lol: :lol: :lol:


It was apparently 15 minutes to edit. Because I finally understood the question of another poster, I hit edit to delete my question back and spent waaay to long writing an answer. So I try and send it and a box comes up saying 15 minutes to edit. I started to edit before the deadline but must have gone way past putting it together. When I tried to retrieve it, it was gone. My mistake. Didn't know about the edit time frame.

No problem, I will know next time. Thanks for answering about it.

I am a knucklehead with computers anyway. Lucky I figured out how to post .:D

burnsy
12-24-2014, 03:03 PM
Properly pricing? Seems like greed is coming before the health of the game itself. They get blamed for that.

People don't like to agree with him.....but SRU is rolling lately. Who gives a shit about details? When does racing start caring about racing, and the customers? That's the point. Every time this happens, can horse racing afford it regardless of whose at fault? While people squabble among each other over money others shake their heads, laugh or walk away disgusted with horse racing. You would think someone with half a brain could smooth this over........before a signal is closed. Instead, it becomes almost an annual deal somewhere. Happy holidays, merry Christmas. Have fun betting on a cockroach race.........that draws them in like the mall on Christmas Eve..........Did you see the one where the Three Stooges invest in a race horse?... :)

elhelmete
12-24-2014, 03:44 PM
People don't like to agree with him.....but SRU is rolling lately. Who gives a shit about details? When does racing start caring about racing, and the customers? That's the point. Every time this happens, can horse racing afford it regardless of whose at fault? While people squabble among each other over money others shake their heads, laugh or walk away disgusted with horse racing. You would think someone with half a brain could smooth this over........before a signal is closed. Instead, it becomes almost an annual deal somewhere. Happy holidays, merry Christmas. Have fun betting on a cockroach race.........that draws them in like the mall on Christmas Eve..........Did you see the one where the Three Stooges invest in a race horse?... :)

Take a look at the members of the Mid Atlantic group and tell me they ALL care about the sport equally and have invested in the product accordingly.

I bet the cartel cracks within 18 months.

PaceAdvantage
12-24-2014, 04:21 PM
It was apparently 15 minutes to edit. Because I finally understood the question of another poster, I hit edit to delete my question back and spent waaay to long writing an answer. So I try and send it and a box comes up saying 15 minutes to edit. I started to edit before the deadline but must have gone way past putting it together. When I tried to retrieve it, it was gone. My mistake. Didn't know about the edit time frame.

No problem, I will know next time. Thanks for answering about it.

I am a knucklehead with computers anyway. Lucky I figured out how to post .:DAhhh...yes...I didn't realize you were editing...I thought you were talking about your initial composition.

Yes, there is a 15 minute time window on editing...thanks for clearing that up.

grimm7
12-24-2014, 06:35 PM
That is exactly my point. There comes a time when customers will get digusted and walk away from this game. Can racing afford that? I am past trying to figure out who is right or wrong and honesty do not care anymore. Both sides just are giving out lip service. It's one side wanting more money and the other side not wanting to pay more money. Again, the customer is stuck in the middle with no say. Oh well! Santa Anita starting and another track I will not be able to play.

Stillriledup
12-24-2014, 06:58 PM
People don't like to agree with him.....but SRU is rolling lately. Who gives a shit about details? When does racing start caring about racing, and the customers? That's the point. Every time this happens, can horse racing afford it regardless of whose at fault? While people squabble among each other over money others shake their heads, laugh or walk away disgusted with horse racing. You would think someone with half a brain could smooth this over........before a signal is closed. Instead, it becomes almost an annual deal somewhere. Happy holidays, merry Christmas. Have fun betting on a cockroach race.........that draws them in like the mall on Christmas Eve..........Did you see the one where the Three Stooges invest in a race horse?... :)

The product of horse racing is SO great that tracks can just open the doors and they'll have fans, customers. The bettors they currently have and the handles they currently see are a product of the product, which is the greatest game on earth.

You said "can horse racing afford it" and the problem is that each track owner is working on his best interest only, nobody is really caring about the game, they care about THEM.

The ship is taking on water, but instead of trying to stop the ship from sinking, they're trying to grab an extra lawn chair or two from the deck instead.

SoCalCircuit
12-30-2014, 05:43 PM
Sorry to bump this but FWIW I spoke with someone at parx today and he seemed pretty convinced that we're not too close to any resolution.

Racey
12-30-2014, 11:42 PM
the same...a guy told me mid Feb ....who knows it sucks.

proximity
12-31-2014, 01:02 AM
the same...a guy told me mid Feb ....who knows it sucks.

racey, we're almost at the point where the co-op should pull out the big guns and send in ross and vitale to straighten this thing out with uncle frank! :)

Racey
12-31-2014, 08:11 PM
yea let the lounge lizard and the twitch get in on this.....two boobs :D

grimm7
01-01-2015, 02:58 PM
Dispute entering 2nd month with no end in site according to bloodhorse. Monarch asking for 20%. Manager at Parx told me Mid-Atlantic Coop will not pay this much and are sticking together. Parx was offered a decent deal but will not take it because they want same for 22 other tracks in Coop. I like to know what goes on at these talks? It looks like no middle can be reached. I believe this can go into the spring when people will stop caring or if someone from Mid-Atlantic Coop withdraws to make own deal. What bugs me is the contract between Monarch and Vegas racebooks expired but signal is continuing while negotiations are ongoing. Why not same here?

Stillriledup
01-01-2015, 03:09 PM
Dispute entering 2nd month with no end in site according to bloodhorse. Monarch asking for 20%. Manager at Parx told me Mid-Atlantic Coop will not pay this much and are sticking together. Parx was offered a decent deal but will not take it because they want same for 22 other tracks in Coop. I like to know what goes on at these talks? It looks like no middle can be reached. I believe this can go into the spring when people will stop caring or if someone from Mid-Atlantic Coop withdraws to make own deal. What bugs me is the contract between Monarch and Vegas racebooks expired but signal is continuing while negotiations are ongoing. Why not same here?
Vegas shouldn't show the signal if they're not taking bets on it.

mabred
01-02-2015, 07:45 AM
Suffolk Downs part of that mid atlantic group has all

tracks all year.

Plainridge /pen national still dark

Go figure!!

Rise Over Run
01-23-2015, 09:33 AM
Has anybody heard anything on this? It's as if there isn't even any negotiating going on about a resolution. The most recent thing I can find is a statement from the Mid-Atlantic Coop on December 17th. I really can't believe how ridiculously stupid the people in positions of power in this industry can be. Oh wait, actually I can and it's fully expected. :bang: :bang:

SoCalCircuit
01-23-2015, 10:59 AM
I think I heard mid-Feb. but who knows at this rate with the way negotiations seem to be going.

grimm7
01-23-2015, 12:06 PM
Players get no information or updates on negotiations. This could go on for a long time. From what I hear both sides are not budging. I believe maybe in the spring when some major tracks start running. Monarch may lower price because they will not have the clout they have with major winter tracks running. As a player who is affected by this impasse it's getting to be very frustrating to play horses.

Stillriledup
01-23-2015, 03:29 PM
Players get no information or updates on negotiations. This could go on for a long time. From what I hear both sides are not budging. I believe maybe in the spring when some major tracks start running. Monarch may lower price because they will not have the clout they have with major winter tracks running. As a player who is affected by this impasse it's getting to be very frustrating to play horses.

They can't budge, thats too big a "precedent" to set. There's a reality to the situation and the "askers" seem to be asking for too much.

RunDustyRun
01-23-2015, 03:41 PM
called Retama Park last week to get an update and vented a little bit at the employee...felt terrible when she responded that they have laid off half of their staff due to decreased attendance....put it in perspective

grimm7
01-23-2015, 05:26 PM
Same at Parx and their turf clubs. Employees are having hours cut because of decreasing attendance. Peoples lives are starting to be affected. Do Monarch and Mid-Atlantic Coop really care if facilities close or employees are laid off? How is this helping racing?

bks
01-23-2015, 06:31 PM
That is exactly my point. There comes a time when customers will get digusted and walk away from this game. Can racing afford that? I am past trying to figure out who is right or wrong and honesty do not care anymore. Both sides just are giving out lip service. It's one side wanting more money and the other side not wanting to pay more money. Again, the customer is stuck in the middle with no say. Oh well! Santa Anita starting and another track I will not be able to play.

It's ONE MONTH into Santa Anita's meet, the meet that's produced two of the last three Derby winners, and we here on the EC are completely shut out.

And that's the real point: when grimm says customers will get disgusted and "walk away from this game," well, at least if I walked away it would be an action I took as a player. But I haven't walked anywhere: I'm right where I was in December, looking forward to another TC season. Instead, I've had the rug pulled out from under me, essentially snatching the game away. That's way worse than having customers walking away: this is customers being told: drop dead.

I'm listening.

grimm7
01-23-2015, 07:23 PM
Right with you buddy! I haven't walked away yet either. I enjoy the social interaction of going to my local turf club but they are taking this away because no one is attending. Finally opened an online betting account but am betting much less. They are slowly losing me after 42 years of playing horses. We are not being given freedom of choice to bet track of choice.

SoCalCircuit
01-23-2015, 10:59 PM
I was on mid-atlantic's "side" for a while, but playing exclusively few tracks that Parx and these other East Coast tracks simulcast really puts into perspective how poor the Mid-atlantic's product is compared to the Stronach tracks at the moment...

Stillriledup
01-23-2015, 11:02 PM
I was on mid-atlantic's "side" for a while, but playing exclusively few tracks that Parx and these other East Coast tracks simulcast really puts into perspective how poor the Mid-atlantic's product is compared to the Stronach tracks at the moment...

I've found that tracks like Parx (when they decide to run) and Penn nat, Delta and Laurel seem to provide value to the way i like to handicap....

SoCalCircuit
01-23-2015, 11:16 PM
Well Laurel's under the Stronach brand. But I do agree that there can be decent value in those tracks in particular instances. I only play pick 5s and 6s so I'm left with little choice aside from NYRA. It's gotten a little better with Oaklawn but I've really come to appreciate the full fields and large pools at Gulfstream this past month. :bang:

Stillriledup
01-23-2015, 11:19 PM
Well Laurel's under the Stronach brand. But I do agree that there can be decent value in those tracks in particular instances. I only play pick 5s and 6s so I'm left with little choice aside from NYRA. It's gotten a little better with Oaklawn but I've really come to appreciate the full fields and large pools at Gulfstream this past month. :bang:

True, Laurel is Stronach. I like the way the races "play" at that place, closers can win, wide moves can win, that's the way i like it.

SoCalCircuit
01-23-2015, 11:24 PM
Laurel is a great track. I also like the way that they designed their jackpot pick 5. The only thing they need to fix is the odd camera angles they use in the stretch.

Rise Over Run
01-28-2015, 10:43 AM
So with the cancellation of racing at Aqueduct today the racing menu at the mid-Atlantic Co-op tracks this afternoon is:

Monticello Harness
Mahoning Valley TB
Meadows Harness
Dover Harness
Buffalo Harness

I'm not sure which is more appropriate. :lol: :lol: , or :bang: :bang:

SoCalCircuit
01-28-2015, 05:03 PM
http://www.drf.com/news/gulfstream-santa-anita-offer-two-track-pick-four

You think mid-atlantic will respond with a Monticello/Meadows cross track pick four? :lol:

reckless
01-28-2015, 07:15 PM
So with the cancellation of racing at Aqueduct today the racing menu at the mid-Atlantic Co-op tracks this afternoon is:

Monticello Harness
Mahoning Valley TB
Meadows Harness
Dover Harness
Buffalo Harness

I'm not sure which is more appropriate. :lol: :lol: , or :bang: :bang:

Both work Rise Over Run, sad but true.

FWIW, every negative thing ever said against Parx for the past 30 years is basically accurate. I truly hate to say it but they've earned every knock hurled at them. This is just the latest. They want to 'kill' the horse racing business so that they could become a casino only business, mark my words.

grimm7
01-28-2015, 07:43 PM
Parx is my home track and everything you said is true. Bob Green is more interested in his casino than racing. This is the result of Monarch & Mid-Atlantic Coop impasse. Same racing menu is being offered at 22 other facilities. I am at the point that whatever happens to racing they get what they deserve.