NY Horsemen are balking at a 59 percent increase in the premium

[LAP_520]

This could put a big wrinkle into things ......

http://www.drf.com/news/new-york-racing-jeopardy-over-workers-compensation-dispute

[Robert Goren]

What a joke. One more thing for the horsemen to bitch about. The purses for NYRA races have jump so much in the last few years that they can easily absorb this cost. Will the greed of the horsemen ever find a limit? Probably not until they kill off the sport entirely.

[EMD4ME]

Oh boy.... this could get real ugly

[Rex Phinney]

LOL at the guys claiming to be "in charge of securing the insurance". Sounds like they are only working with one insurer. Why didin't they go checkout the rest of the market long ago.

Lots of places sell Workers Comp Insurance, go find them.

[JustRalph]

Is this increase just for horseman? Not other businesses?

[Dave Schwartz]

I did not read the article. I am assuming it is about workmen's comp.

This happened in California and has all but ruined racing in the last couple of decades.

[Cholly]

What a joke. One more thing for the horsemen to bitch about. The purses for NYRA races have jump so much in the last few years that they can easily absorb this cost. Will the greed of the horsemen ever find a limit? Probably not until they kill off the sport entirely. Jeez, Robert--they're already paying ninety five cents a day for their stalls...How much overhead do you think they can afford when N1X allowance races only have a $67,000 purse?

[Robert Fischer]

What a joke. One more thing for the horsemen to bitch about. The purses for NYRA races have jump so much in the last few years that they can easily absorb this cost. Will the greed of the horsemen ever find a limit? Probably not until they kill off the sport entirely.

You seem to have deep insight on this topic.

To be honest, I really don't know enough about it to comment.

[Tom]

Oh boy.... this could get real ugly

No it can't....TAMPA BAY is open. :D

[EMD4ME]

No it can't....TAMPA BAY is open. :D

Hilarious :D....

[Ruffian1]

How about the jocks throw in a buck, being as they enjoy the purse hikes as well. Or management, or the agents or concessions, or anyone.

Oh wait, if management gets involved the takeout or parking might rise.

So the horsemen eat it, which means the owners eat it.

Why don't the jocks pay for their own insurance. They are after all, independent contractors.

The trainers have to carry it for all their employees.

Do the riders carry it for their employees, like their agent, valet, and favorite gate crew member? No, they don't.

There goes a portion of that lavish life style I guess.

[Robert Goren]

How about the jocks throw in a buck, being as they enjoy the purse hikes as well. Or management, or the agents or concessions, or anyone.

Oh wait, if management gets involved the takeout or parking might rise.

So the horsemen eat it, which means the owners eat it.

Why don't the jocks pay for their own insurance. They are after all, independent contractors.

The trainers have to carry it for all their employees.

Do the riders carry it for their employees, like their agent, valet, and favorite gate crew member? No, they don't.

There goes a portion of that lavish life style I guess.Gee that means they can only pay $247k instead of a quarter of million for a yearling. Lets all have a good cry for the owners. Boohoo Boohoo.......

[castaway01]

You seem to have deep insight on this topic.

To be honest, I really don't know enough about it to comment.

Goren has deep insight on every NYRA topic...just none of it is correct. It's deep though.

[OTM Al]

Just so people can at least consider laying blame where it belongs, in New York, and I wouldn't be surprised everywhere else, by law, the employer is required to pay worker's compensation. This is not health insurance.

[Ruffian1]

Gee that means they can only pay $247k instead of a quarter of million for a yearling. Lets all have a good cry for the owners. Boohoo Boohoo.......

Many more owners lose money each year rather than win money. While this might not hurt the very wealthy owners, it really does hurt the smaller owners or those that can barely afford to be in the game but do so because they love the game.

Back to my last post, this one sentence is the one you choose to pick out?

Fact is, when the owners say let's have a good cry for the gamblers, boo hoo, everyone gets their shorts in a twist. But it's ok to bash " the owners".

Therein lies the problem. Very few give a rats rear end about anything at the track except for themselves. It is a massive pool of selfish arrogance and ignorance, along with wildly off base assumptions about others entities within the game, that pulls each group that makes up horse racing and betting against one another for the betterment of themselves only, instead of the betterment of the game.
Otherwise known as a vicious cycle, it just never ends.

[Ruffian1]

Just so people can at least consider laying blame where it belongs, in New York, and I wouldn't be surprised everywhere else, by law, the employer is required to pay worker's compensation. This is not health insurance.

Trainers cannot get their license renewed each year without proof of workman's comp for their employees.

The jockeys started getting workman's comp through the horsemen and or the track a few decades ago.

What bugs me is that they are independent contractors with no taxes withheld by trainers. Yet, the trainers are supposed to pay for the jocks workman's comp AND the workman's comp for their salaried employees?

Why don't the jockeys have their own coverage? Simple. Because they have a lobby and a union rep and the horsemen do not. They threatened a work stoppage years ago across the U.S. unless others paid for their insurance.
They got what they wanted and over the years the prices have gone crazy.

That, is what really happened.

So back to the topic at hand, who should pay for it? Trainers? Really?

[Tom]

So back to the topic at hand, who should pay for it? Trainers? Really?

Owners. Part of doing business.

[onefast99]

In NY we do not pay for the workmans comp on our day rate, in Fla we pay a portion of the WC based on the amount of horses we have with the trainer most trainers send a seperate bill to the owners. In NY we pay $840.00 per year to NYRA for jockey insurance. This year the bills went out late and I just got mine on Thursday. In the past the insurance was pro rated, say you raced there 1x NYRA would send a check back to you for the unused portion of the jockey insurance, this has now changed if you race 1x or 50x its the same cost, that needs to be changed!

[onefast99]

Gee that means they can only pay $247k instead of a quarter of million for a yearling. Lets all have a good cry for the owners. Boohoo Boohoo.......
You continue your assault of the owners while having little or no idea what the actual costs are associated with a horse on a daily monthly or yearly basis. Once again you show your lack of knowledge when it comes to this sport based on the owners outlay. Horses aren't machines they need time off and plenty of attention, those that don't receive the much needed attention end up having short careers. Most owners lose money, most enjoy the game because it is an escape from the stressful jobs and careers they have. Much like you or anyone else heading to the simulcast room to bet a few ponies,you do it for the enjoyment factor. Owners go through emotional roller coaster rides every race season whether it is a $5k claimer or a Grade 1 stakes race they are part of. Thats why we all keep coming back the possibility of winning and thats the common denominator for everyone involved!

[Ruffian1]

You continue your assault of the owners while having little or no idea what the actual costs are associated with a horse on a daily monthly or yearly basis. Once again you show your lack of knowledge when it comes to this sport based on the owners outlay. Horses aren't machines they need time off and plenty of attention, those that don't receive the much needed attention end up having short careers. Most owners lose money, most enjoy the game because it is an escape from the stressful jobs and careers they have. Much like you or anyone else heading to the simulcast room to bet a few ponies,you do it for the enjoyment factor. Owners go through emotional roller coaster rides every race season whether it is a $5k claimer or a Grade 1 stakes race they are part of. Thats why we all keep coming back the possibility of winning and thats the common denominator for everyone involved!

Obvious that you were or are in the game.

Well said. And true, every word of it.

I think there are a few posters in here that need a hug.:D

If the game was the focus of trying to fix, everyone could prosper.

But when it's an each man for himself mentality, nothing ever gets fixed and the tension of each entity just festers.

It is indeed tough to read posts that are so incredibly off target, yet posted as though they are absolutely the way it is.

Big difference between perception and reality.

Nice to know that some posters here really get it.

[Cholly]

Obvious that you were or are in the game.

Well said. And true, every word of it.

I think there are a few posters in here that need a hug.:D

I'm not signing up to do any hugging, but I am a bettor who appreciates that the Owners make huge financial contributions to make the show go...and am grateful for their sportsmanship.

[Vinman]

I'm not signing up to do any hugging, but I am a bettor who appreciates that the Owners make huge financial contributions to make the show go...and am grateful for their sportsmanship.


:ThmbUp:

[foregoforever]

From the article (emphasis mine):

Workers’ compensation is funded in three ways. First, there is a premium horsemen pay, which in 2014 was $940 but which could double in 2015. A second component is a percentage of purses, which currently is at 0.95 percent. There is a 1 percent cap on purse money that can go to workers’ compensation, so only 0.05 percent more could be taken from purses. Third, trainers pay 95 cents a day per stall allotted, a fee that could almost double in 2015.

Does anyone know the source of this cap?

[onefast99]

Obvious that you were or are in the game.

Well said. And true, every word of it.

I think there are a few posters in here that need a hug.:D

If the game was the focus of trying to fix, everyone could prosper.

But when it's an each man for himself mentality, nothing ever gets fixed and the tension of each entity just festers.

It is indeed tough to read posts that are so incredibly off target, yet posted as though they are absolutely the way it is.

Big difference between perception and reality.

Nice to know that some posters here really get it.
Still very much involved since 2003. Mostly breeding now and that's not a revenue stream until and if you sell a horse in the sales or they are in the gate running in a race. Most of our horses go to Tony Everhard to get broken, he is great with the babies and has been a pleasure to work with. Lamboguy got me to him and as lg knows I appreciate the introduction. I also have 2 NY breds who race in NY 3/4 of the year. The costs associated with these horses is high. I never thought anything could cost more than Woodbine but NY has passed them by! NYRA does offer great purses for the NY Bred program so a win and a couple of ITM's gets you a break even for the year.

[Robert Goren]

I stand by my statement. When yearling prices are at record levels and rising but handle is falling. Something is wrong with the sport. If owning a horse was as bad a deal as they claim, yearling prices would be falling, not rising. We all know what the horsemen are angling for here. They want tack a bit more on to the takeout to pay the rising workman's comp. They just have not come out and said it yet. But you can be sure it won't be long before they will be wanting a hike again because of rising expenses.

[Ruffian1]

I stand by my statement. When yearling prices are at record levels and rising but handle is falling. Something is wrong with the sport. If owning a horse was as bad a deal as they claim, yearling prices would be falling, not rising. We all know what the horsemen are angling for here. They want tack a bit more on to the takeout to pay the rising workman's comp. They just have not come out and said it yet. But you can be sure it won't be long before they will be wanting a hike again because of rising expenses.

Well , all I can say is WOW!

I suppose that would be fine if the horsemen had anything whatsoever to do with the takeout. But they do not.

Do you mean management?? They control and collect the takeout not horseman.

Either you are saying the wrong thing by mistake, which is fine, or you are horribly misinformed.

[lamboguy]

many of those horses in those sales are going to places like South Korea, Singapore, Viet Nam and many other country's where racing is on the upswing.

[Jeff P]

Well , all I can say is WOW!

I suppose that would be fine if the horsemen had anything whatsoever to do with the takeout. But they do not.

Do you mean management?? They control and collect the takeout not horseman.

Either you are saying the wrong thing by mistake, which is fine, or you are horribly misinformed.


re: The bolded part of the above quote.

I can't speak for New York - but based on first hand experience - it's become crystal clear to me that in California the TOC (Thoroughbred Owners of California) has EVERYTHING to do with high takeout.


-jp

.

[burnsy]

Trainers cannot get their license renewed each year without proof of workman's comp for their employees.

The jockeys started getting workman's comp through the horsemen and or the track a few decades ago.

What bugs me is that they are independent contractors with no taxes withheld by trainers. Yet, the trainers are supposed to pay for the jocks workman's comp AND the workman's comp for their salaried employees?

Why don't the jockeys have their own coverage? Simple. Because they have a lobby and a union rep and the horsemen do not. They threatened a work stoppage years ago across the U.S. unless others paid for their insurance.
They got what they wanted and over the years the prices have gone crazy.

That, is what really happened.

So back to the topic at hand, who should pay for it? Trainers? Really?

Like Tom said the owners............people crack me up. Jockey is no 9-5 gig. Most of those trainers and all of the owners would never do what a jockey does once. My son realized that when he was 10 for crying out loud. I brought him to Saratoga and Belmont all the time. He said to me when he was like 10.........Those jockeys are small but they are either the bravest or craziest athletes around. Forget the union which I believe in because my job was dangerous but nothing like a jockey. People cry the blues when they get hurt or die but they don't expect someone else to pony up the insurance money when they get chased around by an ambulance? You must be kidding? Exercise rider is probably even statistically more dangerous and they don't make as much. When you make that kind of loot in NY (purses) with your ass in a warm, safe, seat. You really can't bitch about workman's comp for your help. What???? If a guy breaks his neck and can't move at age 20 something...which has happened...he should be covering himself to entertain (and possibly profiting) everyone else involved.....Gee, that's a sweet deal......What else? Free hay too? I dare anyone here that isn't a jock or a rider to do what these people do. No coverage, pay for your own and no crying like a bitch.... Even the grooms and walkers get kicked or bit...sometimes trampled and they make squat.

[thaskalos]

Trainers cannot get their license renewed each year without proof of workman's comp for their employees.

The jockeys started getting workman's comp through the horsemen and or the track a few decades ago.

What bugs me is that they are independent contractors with no taxes withheld by trainers. Yet, the trainers are supposed to pay for the jocks workman's comp AND the workman's comp for their salaried employees?

Why don't the jockeys have their own coverage? Simple. Because they have a lobby and a union rep and the horsemen do not. They threatened a work stoppage years ago across the U.S. unless others paid for their insurance.
They got what they wanted and over the years the prices have gone crazy.

That, is what really happened.

So back to the topic at hand, who should pay for it? Trainers? Really?

Why should the trainers pay for it...when the customers have already proven to be exceedingly generous?

[Robert Goren]

[QUOTE=Ruffian1]Well , all I can say is WOW!

I suppose that would be fine if the horsemen had anything whatsoever to do with the takeout. But they do not.

Do you mean management?? They control and collect the takeout not horseman.

Either you are saying the wrong thing by mistake, which is fine, or you are horribly misinformed.[/QUOTE In Nebraska, the NHBPA has a lobbyist on it payroll and have had for over 30 years. They used to an office next to the city parking office. It was abuzz with state senators when the legislature was in session. You better believe they were not arguing for a smaller cut of the betting dollar for themselves by lowering takeout. I find it hard to believe that other state horsemen's group don't have lobbyist too. .

[Ruffian1]

Like Tom said the owners............people crack me up. Jockey is no 9-5 gig. Most of those trainers and all of the owners would never do what a jockey does once. My son realized that when he was 10 for crying out loud. I brought him to Saratoga and Belmont all the time. He said to me when he was like 10.........Those jockeys are small but they are either the bravest or craziest athletes around. Forget the union which I believe in because my job was dangerous but nothing like a jockey. People cry the blues when they get hurt or die but they don't expect someone else to pony up the insurance money when they get chased around by an ambulance? You must be kidding? Exercise rider is probably even statistically more dangerous and they don't make as much. When you make that kind of loot in NY (purses) with your ass in a warm, safe, seat. You really can't bitch about workman's comp for your help. What???? If a guy breaks his neck and can't move at age 20 something...which has happened...he should be covering himself to entertain (and possibly profiting) everyone else involved.....Gee, that's a sweet deal......What else? Free hay too? I dare anyone here that isn't a jock or a rider to do what these people do. No coverage, pay for your own and no crying like a bitch.... Even the grooms and walkers get kicked or bit...sometimes trampled and they make squat.


Let me say this again.

Workmans comp MUST BE CARRIED for ALL employees and proof of such must be shown before a trainer can have their license renewed.

So for as long as I trained, I paid for EVERY damn employee, including exercise riders, every day that I was there.

You don't need to go off on me or scold me because I paid for it EVERYDAY !
Is that clear enough for you??

As for the jocks, once that was put into effect, I paid for that every day as well Is that clear to you???

So when the premiums go up 59% in one year, just keep piling it on everyone else ? Sure . Why not.

Maybe we should ALL pitch in. You think it would be OK if admission was raised a buck a day to help support it??

See, it's easy to tell others how much they should spend when you have no clue how much they already spend.

You said this: Those jockeys are small but they are either the bravest or craziest athletes around.

I completely agree. The toughest athletes pound for pound in the world IMO. And I have great respect for them for what they do.

You said this: People cry the blues when they get hurt or die but they don't expect someone else to pony up the insurance money when they get chased around by an ambulance? You must be kidding? Exercise rider is probably even statistically more dangerous and they don't make as much.

Again, everyone has for years. And to be clear, you are talking about N.Y. Most states do not include exercise riders in this. That is covered by each trainer that they work for. I think this came about because so many ex. riders wanted to become freelance independent contractors. Not sure though.

You said this: When you make that kind of loot in NY (purses) with your ass in a warm, safe, seat.

I left the game 13 years ago and only raced a few horses in N.Y. so you are talking to the wrong person. As far as my ass in a warm, safe seat is concerned, that comment clearly shows me that you do not know the ins and outs of what you speak so harshly too me about. I have no interest in entertaining your internet rants so you can feel better about yourself.

You said: You really can't bitch about workman's comp for your help. What???? If a guy breaks his neck and can't move at age 20 something...which has happened...he should be covering himself to entertain (and possibly profiting) everyone else involved.....Gee, that's a sweet deal..

Nice rant but I have no clue what you are talking about.


You said: Free hay too? I dare anyone here that isn't a jock or a rider to do what these people do. No coverage, pay for your own and no crying like a bitch.... Even the grooms and walkers get kicked or bit...sometimes trampled and they make squat.[/QUOTE]

I never said that. You are ranting away and trying to say that I said that. Go attack someone else .

Man are you bitter.

End of discussion with you.

[Ruffian1]

[QUOTE=Ruffian1]Well , all I can say is WOW!

I suppose that would be fine if the horsemen had anything whatsoever to do with the takeout. But they do not.

Do you mean management?? They control and collect the takeout not horseman.

Either you are saying the wrong thing by mistake, which is fine, or you are horribly misinformed.[/QUOTE In Nebraska, the NHBPA has a lobbyist on it payroll and have had for over 30 years. They used to an office next to the city parking office. It was abuzz with state senators when the legislature was in session. You better believe they were not arguing for a smaller cut of the betting dollar for themselves by lowering takeout. I find it hard to believe that other state horsemen's group don't have lobbyist too. .

Horsemen have a lobby in most states , yes, but they do not control the takeout. At least no state that I ever stabled at did.

On a side note, if I may ask.

Do you also have a total disdain for trainers? I seem to have fallen into a pool of sharks just waiting to feed on a former trainer.

I came here after hearing about this website to help answer a question about the small chute at Pimlico. Several people had answered and they were not correct. I was trying to help . Fast forward about 3-4 weeks and a lot of what I say seems to be inflaming a core group of posters that are bettors. Seems to me that all they want to do is argue on the internet about how the horsemen get this and that and all they get is screwed.

I am sorry that some feel that way but I am quickly growing tired of trying to shed light on something only to be attacked. I mean, what the hell ?

Seems to me that those that attack have no real interest in discussing a topic and seeing it from another viewpoint. All they want to do is go off the deep end on a rant. Their minds are already made up and nothing I say can do anything but further frustrate them. If that is the case, so be it I guess.
But I am not into that at all .

[Tom]

Ruffian1, forgive me if I missed it, but are you an owner or a trainer? I am thinking trainer? In either case, kudos to you for paying.

Of everyone who goes to the track every day, the one group that might not come home, at least on their own two feet, is the jockeys.

I believe the owners should be responsible, but if they pay the trainers enough, then they can take on the costs.

But the race tracks should be kicking in a good share of it too.

[JustRalph]

Is this rate increase part of an annual review? We're other businesses hit with a similar increase? Not clear on how they came up with a whopping 59%? That's a huge increase

[Ruffian1]

Ruffian1, forgive me if I missed it, but are you an owner or a trainer? I am thinking trainer? In either case, kudos to you for paying.

Of everyone who goes to the track every day, the one group that might not come home, at least on their own two feet, is the jockeys.

I believe the owners should be responsible, but if they pay the trainers enough, then they can take on the costs.

But the race tracks should be kicking in a good share of it too.

Thanks for the kudos Tom,

Yes, I was a trainer on the Md. circuit for 25+ years. Had as few as 2 horses and had as many as 70 horses. during that time. I was a leading trainer once ( even surprised myself being as it was the Delp, Dutrow, Leathbury, Tammaro show at the time), leading owner , leading percentage trainer multiple times( no, I only had one positive for a picogram( one trillionth of a gram of procain that was in an antibiotic my vet was giving a horse for a rat bite she sustained at Pimlico while in her stall at night.It was a " no race for 7 days after giving it drug and I ran 13 days later, finished second, and had that positive. Rule was changed to 14 days after that. Just call me lucky! Lol.) I ran over 7,000 horse and won over 1,000 races.

What I am saying is that the trainers should not be responsible over and above what they have already agreed to contribute . My main reason is because contrary to some posters who think they sit their asses in warm, safe seats, trainers get injured or killed as well. Who pays for their Workmans comp? They do.
Del Carroll died from head injuries sustained while training, Jeff Lukas was severely injured as we all remember, Nancy Alberts was almost killed from being kicked and countless others are hurt. Maybe one of them fell out of that warm chair the OP was referring too. But trainers pay for their own if they can afford it, as well as pay for all there stable help, which they should do, and have done at least since 1976 when I started training.
It irks me to no end when someone attacks something I gave my life to for decades when they no what what they actually speak of. Assumption and reality are two different things as we all know.
I find it ironic that as a gamblers advocate inn Md. for as long as I was, and as much as I tried to mingle with, and help any way I could, the fan base, I have a guy attack me telling me his warped perception of what he thinks I am and what he thinks I represent .

Again, thanks for the kind words and I truly respect your opinion and somewhat agree with it. I try to bend not break because I do understand the plight of the gambler when it comes to sensitive topics that gamblers have to live within every day. But I reach a point when enough is enough.

[Ruffian1]

Is this rate increase part of an annual review? We're other businesses hit with a similar increase? Not clear on how they came up with a whopping 59%? That's a huge increase

Yes. It is an annual review for workmans comp. I have dealt with it in two different businesses so I can assume it works that way for all, but I am not positive.

[lamboguy]

the insurance company's have decided to charge higher rates, but i am sure their benefits have not gone up at all.

that is the way banker's and insurance company's work. its their job to take as much money away from as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time.

[thaskalos]

Thanks for the kudos Tom,

Yes, I was a trainer on the Md. circuit for 25+ years. Had as few as 2 horses and had as many as 70 horses. during that time. I was a leading trainer once ( even surprised myself being as it was the Delp, Dutrow, Leathbury, Tammaro show at the time), leading owner , leading percentage trainer multiple times( no, I only had one positive for a picogram( one trillionth of a gram of procain that was in an antibiotic my vet was giving a horse for a rat bite she sustained at Pimlico while in her stall at night.It was a " no race for 7 days after giving it drug and I ran 13 days later, finished second, and had that positive. Rule was changed to 14 days after that. Just call me lucky! Lol.) I ran over 7,000 horse and won over 1,000 races.

What I am saying is that the trainers should not be responsible over and above what they have already agreed to contribute . My main reason is because contrary to some posters who think they sit their asses in warm, safe seats, trainers get injured or killed as well. Who pays for their Workmans comp? They do.
Del Carroll died from head injuries sustained while training, Jeff Lukas was severely injured as we all remember, Nancy Alberts was almost killed from being kicked and countless others are hurt. Maybe one of them fell out of that warm chair the OP was referring too. But trainers pay for their own if they can afford it, as well as pay for all there stable help, which they should do, and have done at least since 1976 when I started training.
It irks me to no end when someone attacks something I gave my life to for decades when they no what what they actually speak of. Assumption and reality are two different things as we all know.
I find it ironic that as a gamblers advocate inn Md. for as long as I was, and as much as I tried to mingle with, and help any way I could, the fan base, I have a guy attack me telling me his warped perception of what he thinks I am and what he thinks I represent .

Again, thanks for the kind words and I truly respect your opinion and somewhat agree with it. I try to bend not break because I do understand the plight of the gambler when it comes to sensitive topics that gamblers have to live within every day. But I reach a point when enough is enough.

I've been reading your posts Ruffian, and I find them very impressive. Please understand that when we are criticizing the trainers whenever some controversial issue comes up...we are not attacking ALL the trainers out there. We readily acknowledge that many -- maybe even most -- of the trainers out there are honest people, who do things as they should be done. But we want you honest trainers to understand that we also know that there are plenty of trainers out there who are an EMBARRASSMENT to this game. And prior experience tells us that you honest trainers cannot be counted upon to publicly criticize the dishonest ones yourselves when they deserve to be criticized...so, we figured that WE have to do it. Somebody has to expose these crooks...right?

And one other rather minor observation:

I've had occasion to listen to some of the top trainers talk whenever a controversial issue comes up (like illegal drugs, or mutuel takeouts), and they seem to like using the word "gamblers" when describing the loyal fan base which has kept them in business all these years. Bob Baffert does this all the time: "The 'gamblers' can always find another game to play if this game goes belly-up, but the trainers are fully invested in this game...so we deserve extra protection"...Baffert likes to say whenever he finds a microphone in front of his face. Why is it that the word "gambler" has suddenly become the word of choice when racing fans are being referred to?

Haven't you guys ever heard of the word "customer"?

[Robert Goren]

The horsemen always seem to miss the point that if the gamblers keep moving to some place else, they are not going to have a job. They can't keep getting money from other sources of gambling forever.

[Ruffian1]

The horsemen always seem to miss the point that if the gamblers keep moving to some place else, they are not going to have a job. They can't keep getting money from other sources of gambling forever.

This former horseman never did. Without you, the bettor ( customer) , there is ne game. I was aware of that before I ever started training at age 21.

I too was a bettor or customer from age 16 . I took an economics class in high school and used the track as my subject. The Jesuits did not take to kindly to that.

[davew]

The horsemen always seem to miss the point that if the gamblers keep moving to some place else, they are not going to have a job. They can't keep getting money from other sources of gambling forever.


There are many horse trainers making a living with horses that have nothing to do with parimutual wagering.

People receiving subsidized insurance always think it is great when other people pay/help pay for it.

[Ruffian1]

I've been reading your posts Ruffian, and I find them very impressive. Please understand that when we are criticizing the trainers whenever some controversial issue comes up...we are not attacking ALL the trainers out there. We readily acknowledge that many -- maybe even most -- of the trainers out there are honest people, who do things as they should be done. But we want you honest trainers to understand that we also know that there are plenty of trainers out there who are an EMBARRASSMENT to this game. And prior experience tells us that you honest trainers cannot be counted upon to publicly criticize the dishonest ones yourselves when they deserve to be criticized...so, we figured that WE have to do it. Somebody has to expose these crooks...right?

And one other rather minor observation:

I've had occasion to listen to some of the top trainers talk whenever a controversial issue comes up (like illegal drugs, or mutuel takeouts), and they seem to like using the word "gamblers" when describing the loyal fan base which has kept them in business all these years. Bob Baffert does this all the time: "The 'gamblers' can always find another game to play if this game goes belly-up, but the trainers are fully invested in this game...so we deserve extra protection"...Baffert likes to say whenever he finds a microphone in front of his face. Why is it that the word "gambler" has suddenly become the word of choice when racing fans are being referred to?

Haven't you guys ever heard of the word "customer"?

It is great to hear that people see the difference between trainers. Maybe it is tough for active trainers to publicly criticize other trainers but I have no problem with it. Never did.Trying my whole career to be honest and play the game fairly, nothing pissed me off more than losing to a guy that I knew cheated. Did I know because I saw him? A few times yes, but mostly no. But did I know that he or she was? Absolutely. So if you want to have that discussion I will be happy to help all I can.

Yes, for sure, someone has to expose the crooks. Drugs and cheating was on a short list of reasons why I left the game.

Gamblers: I do not know why and it's funny that if I was to look back at my posts I would bet that I used the word bettor more often than not. Seems as though when I started getting upset, I started tossing gambler around. Is that Freudian or what? I apologize for that. However, I like the word customer, as it seems more respectful, and I will try and remember to use it for now on. I appreciate your insight about that.

Anything that Baffert says is not something I want to be associated with anyway. Guy has never impressed me. While I never raced on the same circuit as him, I was at plenty of sales with him and asked plenty of people about him. The answers were not very flattering overall.

Too me, there are many others that deserve praise in this game, not just the chosen handful of heads that always seem to pop up during the classic's.

Lastly, yes, trainers are fully vested in the game, but as long as serious daily customers are playing the game, so are they. I strongly disagree with Baffert on that statement he made.

Thanks for the observations and response. It was a pleasure to talk with you.

[thespaah]

How about the jocks throw in a buck, being as they enjoy the purse hikes as well. Or management, or the agents or concessions, or anyone.

Oh wait, if management gets involved the takeout or parking might rise.

So the horsemen eat it, which means the owners eat it.

Why don't the jocks pay for their own insurance. They are after all, independent contractors.

The trainers have to carry it for all their employees.

Do the riders carry it for their employees, like their agent, valet, and favorite gate crew member? No, they don't.

There goes a portion of that lavish life style I guess.
Independent contractors that pay for their own WC insurance get KILLED...
For example. When I was a contractor in the satellite tv business, I looked at buying WC insurance to cover myself. My insurance agent ran the numbers. Based on the amount of gross income I averaged, my nut for WC would have been just over $7k per year or nearly $600 per month. I went without.
I would imagine the "damage" for a jockey would be much higher. Let's say a typical rider in NY grosses $100k. Considering the this is a high risk occupation, I can only guess that WC insurance would run 35 or 40% of their gross income.
NYRA employs the gate crews, track maintenance staff, valets...Trainers employ the hot walkers, grooms and assistant trainers.
Employers are required to carry WC insurance for their employees. Period.
I am not going to ignore the fact that this increase is a shock to the system. If I were a horseman, I'd be pretty pissed about it.
However, instead of carping, I'd do something about it. That something would be to go find an insurance company willing to write me a policy that charged me a reasonable premium. Those insurers DO exist.

[thespaah]

Just so people can at least consider laying blame where it belongs, in New York, and I wouldn't be surprised everywhere else, by law, the employer is required to pay worker's compensation. This is not health insurance.
New York certainly has some labor laws that create a high cost of doing business. Hence the reason why so many businesses have left the state and more than likely why NY now has this new program where a business entering the state for the first time pays no corp income tax for the first ten years.
NY labor law makes it very expensive and highly restrictive on business owners.
This premium increase is par for the course.
And it's typical. Instead of rooting out the incredible fraud and abuse of the WC system, they just jack up the premiums. Politicians going for the low hanging fruit

[thespaah]

Trainers cannot get their license renewed each year without proof of workman's comp for their employees.

The jockeys started getting workman's comp through the horsemen and or the track a few decades ago.

What bugs me is that they are independent contractors with no taxes withheld by trainers. Yet, the trainers are supposed to pay for the jocks workman's comp AND the workman's comp for their salaried employees?

Why don't the jockeys have their own coverage? Simple. Because they have a lobby and a union rep and the horsemen do not. They threatened a work stoppage years ago across the U.S. unless others paid for their insurance.
They got what they wanted and over the years the prices have gone crazy.

That, is what really happened.

So back to the topic at hand, who should pay for it? Trainers? Really?
I must raise a point here. Every racing jurisdiction has a Horsemen's Benevolent Protective Association. That in my opinion is a defacto union.
In most states HBPA's are very powerful. These associations can, with the stroke of a pen, essentially shut down all racing and wagering on out of town racing as well.
And as for your proposal that jocks buy their own WC insurance, such a cost would be prohibitive given the premiums assigned due to riding race horses being a high risk occupation. And because jockeys are independent contractors, they cannot form a group to pool their funds to buy a group policy. The riders would have to form a corporation that would then be their employer. Where riders would draw a paycheck, etc.....At that point they could as employees, have WC insurance.
Of course this is as I understand how the process works.
Perhaps it is time for the system to be reexamined.

[thespaah]

You continue your assault of the owners while having little or no idea what the actual costs are associated with a horse on a daily monthly or yearly basis. Once again you show your lack of knowledge when it comes to this sport based on the owners outlay. Horses aren't machines they need time off and plenty of attention, those that don't receive the much needed attention end up having short careers. Most owners lose money, most enjoy the game because it is an escape from the stressful jobs and careers they have. Much like you or anyone else heading to the simulcast room to bet a few ponies,you do it for the enjoyment factor. Owners go through emotional roller coaster rides every race season whether it is a $5k claimer or a Grade 1 stakes race they are part of. Thats why we all keep coming back the possibility of winning and thats the common denominator for everyone involved!
In my work and travels, I have met people who are owners.
I did a job in the home of a husband and wife who owned a few that raced in KY.....We got into a pretty in depth chat about what it takes and the commitment to being an owner.
They both said it wasn't for the money, although the occasional large check they got to keep some of was nice. No, they said it was...And he opened a door into another room, pointed and on the wall were several of those winners circle photos.....he said "THAT is why we own these horses". "For the thrill and fun of getting ours and our horse's picture taken."

[thespaah]

I stand by my statement. When yearling prices are at record levels and rising but handle is falling. Something is wrong with the sport. If owning a horse was as bad a deal as they claim, yearling prices would be falling, not rising. We all know what the horsemen are angling for here. They want tack a bit more on to the takeout to pay the rising workman's comp. They just have not come out and said it yet. But you can be sure it won't be long before they will be wanting a hike again because of rising expenses.
There are fewer owners spending more money. Simple.
And most horses sold are for prices less than 5 figures.
There are far more low rung tracks running claiming races for inexpensive horses than major facilities running grade 1's for half a million or more.
In fact, the chances of an owner ever even possessing a graded stakes horse are about as low as the probability of a high school baseball player making it to the Major Leagues.
In other words, for every Grade 1 owner, there are thousands of owners with a $5k claimer in their stable.

[thespaah]

Well , all I can say is WOW!

I suppose that would be fine if the horsemen had anything whatsoever to do with the takeout. But they do not.

Do you mean management?? They control and collect the takeout not horseman.

Either you are saying the wrong thing by mistake, which is fine, or you are horribly misinformed.
Don't the horsemen have a say in the percentage rates of takeout?
I can recall occasions where horsemen have made their voices loud and clear that if a the takeout was not" whatever" they would not make some kind of agreement with the track.

[thespaah]

Like Tom said the owners............people crack me up. Jockey is no 9-5 gig. Most of those trainers and all of the owners would never do what a jockey does once. My son realized that when he was 10 for crying out loud. I brought him to Saratoga and Belmont all the time. He said to me when he was like 10.........Those jockeys are small but they are either the bravest or craziest athletes around. Forget the union which I believe in because my job was dangerous but nothing like a jockey. People cry the blues when they get hurt or die but they don't expect someone else to pony up the insurance money when they get chased around by an ambulance? You must be kidding? Exercise rider is probably even statistically more dangerous and they don't make as much. When you make that kind of loot in NY (purses) with your ass in a warm, safe, seat. You really can't bitch about workman's comp for your help. What???? If a guy breaks his neck and can't move at age 20 something...which has happened...he should be covering himself to entertain (and possibly profiting) everyone else involved.....Gee, that's a sweet deal......What else? Free hay too? I dare anyone here that isn't a jock or a rider to do what these people do. No coverage, pay for your own and no crying like a bitch.... Even the grooms and walkers get kicked or bit...sometimes trampled and they make squat.
I concur..As I found out first hand( wanna see the scar on my knee?) that working with racehorses can be a hazardous occupation.
I once saw a girl get cow kicked by her horse( she was a groom) while in the stall rubbing her horse. Almost broke her leg. She was taken by ambulance to hospital.
Once saw a guy walking between barns with a bandage on his arm....He was bitten. It's a tough place to work.
I got kicked in the knee and suffered a pretty decent cut. Fortunately the hoof kind of brushed by. Broke the skin. Nothing I could not clean and bandage myself. Had the first aid kit in the tack box.....

[thespaah]

[QUOTE=Robert Goren]

Horsemen have a lobby in most states , yes, but they do not control the takeout. At least no state that I ever stabled at did.

On a side note, if I may ask.

Do you also have a total disdain for trainers? I seem to have fallen into a pool of sharks just waiting to feed on a former trainer.

I came here after hearing about this website to help answer a question about the small chute at Pimlico. Several people had answered and they were not correct. I was trying to help . Fast forward about 3-4 weeks and a lot of what I say seems to be inflaming a core group of posters that are bettors. Seems to me that all they want to do is argue on the internet about how the horsemen get this and that and all they get is screwed.

I am sorry that some feel that way but I am quickly growing tired of trying to shed light on something only to be attacked. I mean, what the hell ?

Seems to me that those that attack have no real interest in discussing a topic and seeing it from another viewpoint. All they want to do is go off the deep end on a rant. Their minds are already made up and nothing I say can do anything but further frustrate them. If that is the case, so be it I guess.
But I am not into that at all .
Please do not leave over the comments of one or two people.
It is good that fans, horsemen, announcers, handicappers professional and amateur, writers, etc can share comments on here..
So please, stick around.

[thespaah]

the insurance company's have decided to charge higher rates, but i am sure their benefits have not gone up at all.

that is the way banker's and insurance company's work. its their job to take as much money away from as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time.
Insurance companies that are publicly traded are usually the worst or most difficult to deal with when it comes to paying claims.
Unfortunately, the insurance industry has gone from one that assigned premiums based on risk to being concerned for only the bottom line.
That line being....keeping the stock holders happy.
The customers? They are the runt puppy in the litter.

[onefast99]

In my work and travels, I have met people who are owners.
I did a job in the home of a husband and wife who owned a few that raced in KY.....We got into a pretty in depth chat about what it takes and the commitment to being an owner.
They both said it wasn't for the money, although the occasional large check they got to keep some of was nice. No, they said it was...And he opened a door into another room, pointed and on the wall were several of those winners circle photos.....he said "THAT is why we own these horses". "For the thrill and fun of getting ours and our horse's picture taken."
My living room was converted into our horse room where everyone of our 55 wins over the past 11 years hangs, including our Breeders Cup memorabilia from 2007 and a few nice pieces of hardware from stakes races we won. That is what keeps me in this game those great pics!

[davew]

Does anyone know if the New York workman compensation is run by an actual insurance company, or is it a state of New York operation?

[hyipro]

under NYS law and NYSIF policy provisions, a sole shareholder can claim
exemption from WC and would not have to pay into the fund. Would NYRA
allow the Jockeys to incorporate I have no idea, but the point being there is
a way around it.

[Robert Goren]

My living room was converted into our horse room where everyone of our 55 wins over the past 11 years hangs, including our Breeders Cup memorabilia from 2007 and a few nice pieces of hardware from stakes races we won. That is what keeps me in this game those great pics!And the people who made those memories possible are the people who bets on the races. Without them, there would be no BC or TC or even race tracks. There might be a few races a year, probably less than 100.

[onefast99]

Yes RG everyone plays a big part in making racing happen, no one gets top billing everyone is a supporting entity. No matter how much you like the horsemans approach to things everyone wants one thing, the betterment of this sport.

[LAP_520]

Does anyone know if the New York workman compensation is run by an actual insurance company, or is it a state of New York operation?

Workers' Compensation Coverage


State Insurance Fund (SIF) Information

This information is provided by the New York State Workers' Compensation Board to give small businesses quick and direct access to workers' compensation information. It is not intended to serve as an endorsement of the State Insurance Fund or any other insurance carrier. The Workers' Compensation Board, State Insurance Fund and Compensation Insurance Rating Board are three separate and distinct entities.

The State Insurance Fund is a not-for-profit agency of the State of New York that was established in 1914 to provide a guaranteed source of workers' compensation insurance coverage at the lowest possible cost to employers within New York State. Despite its State agency status, SIF is a self-supporting insurance carrier that competes with private insurers.



More Info at:
http://www.wcb.ny.gov/content/main/Employers/SIFinfo.jsp

[hyipro]

.......................And is also one of the largest source of revenues for the NYS budget I think last year, the Gov had them turn over $350 million in
surplus................

[davew]

.......................And is also one of the largest source of revenues for the NYS budget I think last year, the Gov had them turn over $350 million in
surplus................


That would make sense, premiums pay for all costs and reserve in pool. The state cannibalizes the pool and premiums go up for everyone. Higher risk/higher pay-out industries end up with huge premium increases. Repeat cycle every year or two...

[NY BRED]

.......................And is also one of the largest source of revenues for the NYS budget I think last year, the Gov had them turn over $350 million in
surplus................


In 1992 ,the Governor took down 1.2 BILLION from NYSIF to
balance the state budget.