Battle of the Big 3s

[lansdale]

OKC vs. Cavs game tonight brings up a question that I think will become a perennial for NBA fans for years if these two groups stay together, since they seem to have the two best Big 3s in the game right now, and will likely be battling for titles at some point. Which group is better?

I'd give OKC a slight edge right now based on the difference between WB and Irving - the latter really is a liability on D. Durant and LBJ nearly on par, and for me Love, slight edge (rbs and scoring) over Ibaka (much better D). I'm sure cj agrees w/me about Love. As Kyrie develops though, the edge could move East.

Re tonight's game - line is OKC -3, but at home, at LBJ with bad knee, think the final score will be closer to OKC/110-CAVS/100.

[lansdale]

OKC vs. Cavs game tonight brings up a question that I think will become a perennial for NBA fans for years if these two groups stay together, since they seem to have the two best Big 3s in the game right now, and will likely be battling for titles at some point. Which group is better?

I'd give OKC a slight edge right now based on the difference between WB and Irving - the latter really is a liability on D. Durant and LBJ nearly on par, and for me Love, slight edge (rbs and scoring) over Ibaka (much better D). I'm sure cj agrees w/me about Love. As Kyrie develops though, the edge could move East.

Re tonight's game - line is OKC -3, but at home, at LBJ with bad knee, think the final score will be closer to OKC/110-CAVS/100.

LBJ AWOL tonight. Should be OKC blowout 110/90.

[Robert Fischer]

Kevin Love finding his range.

I just turned this on, tied @ 57.

Something to watch.:ThmbUp:

[Robert Fischer]

Irving doing a really poor job of setting the table for Kevin Love.

He's feeding him slow passes. Bad bounce passes in-between-hops...
Giving him the ball out of rhythm.

Love was in position to carry the offense for a while, but they have not worked well together.

93-86 OKC now.

In defense of Irving, he did slightly hyper-extend his knee earlier in the game.

[lansdale]

Irving doing a really poor job of setting the table for Kevin Love.

He's feeding him slow passes. Bad bounce passes in-between-hops...
Giving him the ball out of rhythm.

Love was in position to carry the offense for a while, but they have not worked well together.

93-86 OKC now.

In defense of Irving, he did slightly hyper-extend his knee earlier in the game.

Happy to see that someone has finally noticed this. Irving has basically been sabotaging Love like this since the beginning of the season. Not that he's shutting him out of games - he can't afford to - but limits his shot totals, and even when he does get him the ball, it's often when he's out of position or covered. He's obssessed with making sure that he always gets more fga and points than Love. This is much more blatant when LBJ is out.

As you noticed, as soon as Love gets on a roll, Irving stops giving him the ball. Tonight's game was surprisingly winnable for Cavs down the stretch, but Love barely got a touch after the middle of the third quarter. All Irving had to do was continue to go to Love, who has always killed OKC, and the Cavs had a good shot at winning. Instead, he goes ball hog - a terrible 7/20 performance in which he was badly outplayed by Westbrook.

This became clearer to me tonight: nobody has control over Irving, he really does have low hoops IQ, and I predict they'll never win an NBA title, and maybe not even a conference title with him at point.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't know how conscious Irving was of it, or his intent, but he really played poorly. He did appear to be selfish.

I did see Love get going several times, and then he wouldn't get the ball, or he'd be open and the pass would be poor, costing him the shot.
If I hadn't seen the game and only looked at the box score, I would have thought that Love didn't show up tonight, and that maybe Irving did the best he could to carry the team.

It was a discouraging game from Irving, and it certainly does cast a lot of doubt on their championship odds.

[cj]

OKC vs. Cavs game tonight brings up a question that I think will become a perennial for NBA fans for years if these two groups stay together, since they seem to have the two best Big 3s in the game right now, and will likely be battling for titles at some point. Which group is better?

I'd give OKC a slight edge right now based on the difference between WB and Irving - the latter really is a liability on D. Durant and LBJ nearly on par, and for me Love, slight edge (rbs and scoring) over Ibaka (much better D). I'm sure cj agrees w/me about Love. As Kyrie develops though, the edge could move East.

Re tonight's game - line is OKC -3, but at home, at LBJ with bad knee, think the final score will be closer to OKC/110-CAVS/100.

Pretty close on the final score.

A few thoughts, trying not to be biased much...

Irving is a very good player, but Westbrook is on another level. It is not a small gap.

Love plays absolutely no defense whatsoever. I don't care how good he shoots, that is tough to overcome. In a close game down the stretch he just let Durant dunk without even contesting. It was so weak, and says all I need to know about Love. I know he rebounds a lot, but he should since he just basically stands near the basket not guarding anyone the majority of the time.

KD is getting back, didn't play well last night, but was clutch down the stretch as he usually is.

I found it odd Lebron didn't sit on the bench even if sitting out. Why stay in the locker room? An OKC player would never do that, I know that much.

I saw two guys on their last legs last night, Anderson Varejao and Nick Collison. Collison will probably be out of the rotation soon anyway, got a DNP-Coach's Decision the last game. Perry Jones and Mitch McGary are capable. Cleveland doesn't have that kind of depth and will need to be active in the trade market to be a real contender.

[cj]

Love is not a guy that can make his own opportunities. He either hits 3s or scores on put backs for the most part. I'm not sure I can blame Irving for that any more than I would blame Westbrook for not getting the ball to Morrow more. Everybody knows why he is out there, so of course they defend against it when possible.

[Stillriledup]

Love is not a guy that can make his own opportunities. He either hits 3s or scores on put backs for the most part. I'm not sure I can blame Irving for that any more than I would blame Westbrook for not getting the ball to Morrow more. Everybody knows why he is out there, so of course they defend against it when possible.

Love accumulated a lot of his stats when the other team's just moved out of the way and let him have uncontested shots and rebounds. Teams essentially "took the night off" vs Minny because they knew they weren't in much danger of actually losing. Or, so they thought.

[cj]

Love accumulated a lot of his stats when the other team's just moved out of the way and let him have uncontested shots and rebounds. Teams essentially "took the night off" vs Minny because they knew they weren't in much danger of actually losing. Or, so they thought.

I don't buy that, Love is obviously really good at what he does. He rebounds well and shoots 3s well. Outside of that though, he's just meh as far as I'm concerned.

[Stillriledup]

I don't buy that, Love is obviously really good at what he does. He rebounds well and shoots 3s well. Outside of that though, he's just meh as far as I'm concerned.

My point was that if he was on a better team, he wouldnt be as good because people would actually defend him. When teams shoot vs Minny (or, used to when he was on that team) they would just vacate the area after the shot was launched and head back on defense...so love would be standing there by himself grabbing a rebound.

Im not saying the guy is a bad player, but he's way overrated.Until you actually perform at a high level on a winning team, i'm not going to buy into the hype. Same with Anthony Davis, when he starts winning some games and continues to play at high level, i'll buy in. Lot easier to look great when you're the only real talent on the team and other teams aren't taking you or your team seriously.

[Robert Fischer]

Love is kind of like a poor-man's Dirk Nowitzki.

He isn't a Dirk Nowitzki, and he was broadcast to the public as a Dirk Nowitzki while in Minnesota. Yet, he did a fine job. He drove a lot of revenue. He played at the superstar level at times. Yes, teams occasionally put it in 'cruise-control' when facing the Wolves. Once in a while he was at a disadvantage, due to his team's weakness, but in general he profited.

Last night however, Irving just played a horribly disappointing game.

To be fair, I am about as nerdy an "x's and o's sport's nerd" as can be, as well as a grump. I am also a bitter ex-basketball player (someone who is the same height as Kevin Love, and someone who catastrophically tore their aorta lifting weights in his last attempt to play college ball).

I watch sports, and I probably complain about things that few others will agree with or even care about.
When I go to a social media site and see the comments about a game, their "LeBron sux" stuff seems foreign to me in the same way my nerd stuff would be to them.

Last night there were several times when Love appeared to get it going on offense.
He finished 2-5 from 3 point land. He could have easily been 5 for 10 from downtown.
I don't claim that Irving was necessarily malicious or anything like that in his intent...

When a guy like Love is getting into a zone, and then the players are into their rotations and the pass comes slow and off-target and loses the opportunity, the coach also has to be assertive.

nobody has control over Irving
Similar words have been spoken about Russell Westbrook(although questionable imo as Durant and Westbrook clearly have each other's backs).
We didn't see any presence from the Cleveland coach David Blatt.

After seeing that game, I'd consider betting against Cleveland for the Championship.

Yes, LeBron is tremendous. I think there are legit questions and 3/1 or thereabouts is too low. Would be interesting to 'lay' against that price...

[lansdale]

I don't know how conscious Irving was of it, or his intent, but he really played poorly. He did appear to be selfish.

I did see Love get going several times, and then he wouldn't get the ball, or he'd be open and the pass would be poor, costing him the shot.
If I hadn't seen the game and only looked at the box score, I would have thought that Love didn't show up tonight, and that maybe Irving did the best he could to carry the team.

It was a discouraging game from Irving, and it certainly does cast a lot of doubt on their championship odds.

Yep.

[lansdale]

Pretty close on the final score.

A few thoughts, trying not to be biased much...

Irving is a very good player, but Westbrook is on another level. It is not a small gap.

Love plays absolutely no defense whatsoever. I don't care how good he shoots, that is tough to overcome. In a close game down the stretch he just let Durant dunk without even contesting. It was so weak, and says all I need to know about Love. I know he rebounds a lot, but he should since he just basically stands near the basket not guarding anyone the majority of the time.

KD is getting back, didn't play well last night, but was clutch down the stretch as he usually is.

I found it odd Lebron didn't sit on the bench even if sitting out. Why stay in the locker room? An OKC player would never do that, I know that much.

I saw two guys on their last legs last night, Anderson Varejao and Nick Collison. Collison will probably be out of the rotation soon anyway, got a DNP-Coach's Decision the last game. Perry Jones and Mitch McGary are capable. Cleveland doesn't have that kind of depth and will need to be active in the trade market to be a real contender.

Don't think this is anything new. K. Love is bad defender. Check. Kind of comic that you think he could do anything to stop KD in that scenario, one of the half-dozen or so best scorers in NBA history, that didn't involve a 2x4.

I know you must be aware of this, but some great players in the league have just not been much on D. - Barkeley, Bird, Magic, Nowitzki, S. Nash - the list could go on. I'm not putting Love in that class...yet, but I'm waiting to see what happens in the post-season.

Neither team played up to par. KD not fully back and Ibaka seemed possibly under the weather - 0 boards? Only WB was himself. Don't know the deal with LBJ as a no-show. Actually I didn't watch the entire game, but Varejao has generally been playing well. But, I agree, as I have said that they're going to have to make a deal for some D. - tonight's game was just more evidence. Hope Waiters is on the block.

Re your comments on Irving/Love below - as RF says, you have to watch a few games to notice it, but it is a real thing. Irving clearly wants to make sure that he, and not Love is the second option, and he often takes too many shots to get there. Tonight e.g., Irving 7/19 - 17 pts. Love 5/11 - 21 pts.. If you switched the fga, the Cavs would likely have won the game. I think the same vs. OKC.

I think that sideshow though is less important that the stupidity and selfishness that seems clear in Irving at this point. I've never really followed his game before, just glanced at his stats. As you say, he's not close to WB's HOF level - he's somewhere between a low to mid-level All Star. He's only 22, but he's not headed in the right direction, and it does appear that he's not listening to anyone. It's really on the organization - he could never get away with taking all these shots if Pop, Reilly, PJax, et. al. had anything to say about it. He'd be on the bench. I don't know if I'm reading LBJ right, but it seems to me that he's seeing the same thing and isn't happy. Wondering if a clash is on the horizon.

Re Love's ability to get his shot - that's a little harsh. He certainly doesn't have the same mobility with the ball as LBJ or Irving, but he's also not just a spot-up shooter - he's capable of putting the ball on the floor and beating his man off the dribble. But I think like any big man, he benefits from getting the ball in his best spots. In MINN, he was accustomed to getting clearouts and ISOs and having his number called often, so getting a shot was not a problem. And now, he has to play without the ball - a new experience for him, which will require some adjustment. And in addition, Irving, as we have said, isn't really doing much to make this process any easier. That said, he's playing well despite getting only 13 shots a game: 17 pts. and 10 rb pg. Compare this with C. Bosh who was in the same situation when he went to Miami in 2010. His averages for the past four years there: 17 pts. and 7 rb pg..

I'm not going to make any more calls on the Cavs until they make some kind of deal, which may be soon.

[lansdale]

Today's game seems like a good time to bump this old thread. Both these teams on the upswing after the recent deal. Waiters seems to be getting more time in OKC than with Cavs so maybe positive deal both ways. And, although OKC still has the best Big 3, with the addition of Mozgov, who has been better than anyone expected, Cleveland may have the best Big 4. Line has moved from -2 to -3.5 Cavs, but that's little more than HCA. So, I think linesmaker viewing these teams as basically equal. Interesting to see if Mozgov will be able to change or deflect some of WB's shots, usually unstoppable by almost anyone when he drives.

[cj]

Today's game seems like a good time to bump this old thread. Both these teams on the upswing after the recent deal. Waiters seems to be getting more time in OKC than with Cavs so maybe positive deal both ways. And, although OKC still has the best Big 3, with the addition of Mozgov, who has been better than anyone expected, Cleveland may have the best Big 4. Line has moved from -2 to -3.5 Cavs, but that's little more than HCA. So, I think linesmaker viewing these teams as basically equal. Interesting to see if Mozgov will be able to change or deflect some of WB's shots, usually unstoppable by almost anyone when he drives.

I personally don't think the Thunder are playing very well. Teams have figured out to sag in the paint and just give up jumpers, even 3s, to anyone but KD. The team can't capitalize. Morrow has just been OK, Ibaka has been good but teams don't mind him leaving the paint, and the rest are just bad shooters.

[lansdale]

Take your point re OKC shooting, but that's always been true of their offense - they live and die by their outside shooting. And with Durant and WB, this has always taken them pretty far. If you look at the numbers, OKC defense is slightly better than last year and only the scoring is off - down from 106 to 100. But that is almost entirely to attributable, first to Durant and WB's down time, and even now to Durant's limited minutes. He averages .8 pts. per minute. If he was back to playing 40 min. per game, per last year, rather than 32 min., OKC would be scoring another 6 pts. per game. I still think Durant and SB are playing very well - just watched Wiz game the other night. Durant's 2p% is an astounding 59% - highest of his career.

I think both of these teams are still a notch below the best - Dubs and Hawks, but think this still should be good game. Actually should go watch now!

[cj]

Take your point re OKC shooting, but that's always been true of their offense - they live and die by their outside shooting. And with Durant and WB, this has always taken them pretty far. If you look at the numbers, OKC defense is slightly better than last year and only the scoring is off - down from 106 to 100. But that is almost entirely to attributable, first to Durant and WB's down time, and even now to Durant's limited minutes. He averages .8 pts. per minute. If he was back to playing 40 min. per game, per last year, rather than 32 min., OKC would be scoring another 6 pts. per game. I still think Durant and SB are playing very well - just watched Wiz game the other night. Durant's 2p% is an astounding 59% - highest of his career.

I think both of these teams are still a notch below the best - Dubs and Hawks, but think this still should be good game. Actually should go watch now!

People think that, but they score way more on Durant and Westbrook driving than on jumpshots. The rest of the team just can't shoot and teams know it. It was so evident today again. They just give up wide open threes to anyone not named Durant. The Thunder shoot a poor percentage and they are mostly wide open shots. That allows teams to shut off the driving lanes even more than in the past. I mean, they could have done it before, but for some reason it took a while to catch on.

[Robert Fischer]

People think that, but they score way more on Durant and Westbrook driving than on jumpshots. The rest of the team just can't shoot and teams know it. It was so evident today again. They just give up wide open threes to anyone not named Durant. The Thunder shoot a poor percentage and they are mostly wide open shots. That allows teams to shut off the driving lanes even more than in the past. I mean, they could have done it before, but for some reason it took a while to catch on.

Yup. These teams are sagging in and begging OKC's supporting cast to shoot from the outside.

That 2-headed monster of Jackson and Waiters can go through some ugly stretches.

Waiters is advertised as a guy who adds some offense, but he sucks. The only thing he adds to a half-court set is 'more misses'.

[cj]

Yup. These teams are sagging in and begging OKC's supporting cast to shoot from the outside.

That 2-headed monster of Jackson and Waiters can go through some ugly stretches.

Waiters is advertised as a guy who adds some offense, but he sucks. The only thing he adds to a half-court set is 'more misses'.

I think Waiters is fine in some roles, but not the spot up shooter role.

[Robert Fischer]

I think Waiters is fine in some roles, but not the spot up shooter role.

Yea. He's pretty good driving to the hoop. He's made the game highlights a few times, even when he's had bad nights, so there is some underlying talent there.

It's amazing that these guys can't hit an open 25 footer one out of three times...

[lansdale]

People think that, but they score way more on Durant and Westbrook driving than on jumpshots. The rest of the team just can't shoot and teams know it. It was so evident today again. They just give up wide open threes to anyone not named Durant. The Thunder shoot a poor percentage and they are mostly wide open shots. That allows teams to shut off the driving lanes even more than in the past. I mean, they could have done it before, but for some reason it took a while to catch on.

This is true, but their 3-pt. shooting was better last year and used to be much better. And it's become clear that, the game really is now about shooting the 3. When they were playing for the title, OKC, had four guys shooting ca. 40% from downtown - Durant, Harden, Sefolosha, and Fisher. In recent years, they had players like K. Martin and Caron Butler who shot over 40%. Now the only guys on the team who can really shoot it are Durant, somewhat bizarrely Ibaka, and Morrow. I had thought Waiters was shooting better for OKC (since scoring his really the only skill of this very limited player) but it's obvious that both he and R. Jackson have really declined with the 3-shot, and WB could never shoot it. These players have proven skills around the basket and a better coach would ways to create scoring opportunities for them.

As a team, it seems to me that OKC is still very good, but they've declined slightly while many others - Dubs, Mavs, Blazers, Hawks, Cavs, etc. have improved, and the top tier of the league has become more competitive. I would still love to see Durant and Westbrook make a run at the title and still believe Brooks is not the guy to lead them to it.

[Robert Fischer]

This is true, but their 3-pt. shooting was better last year and used to be much better. And it's become clear that, the game really is now about shooting the 3. When they were playing for the title, OKC, had four guys shooting ca. 40% from downtown - Durant, Harden, Sefolosha, and Fisher. In recent years, they had players like K. Martin and Caron Butler who shot over 40%. Now the only guys on the team who can really shoot it are Durant, somewhat bizarrely Ibaka, and Morrow. I had thought Waiters was shooting better for OKC (since scoring his really the only skill of this very limited player) but it's obvious that both he and R. Jackson have really declined with the 3-shot, and WB could never shoot it. These players have proven skills around the basket and a better coach would ways to create scoring opportunities for them.

As a team, it seems to me that OKC is still very good, but they've declined slightly while many others - Dubs, Mavs, Blazers, Hawks, Cavs, etc. have improved, and the top tier of the league has become more competitive. I would still love to see Durant and Westbrook make a run at the title and still believe Brooks is not the guy to lead them to it.

Durant is still one of the top players. And Westbrook is still a legit all-star.

I can see the potential for a lineup with Durant and Westbrook and Morrow(but he has to SPECIALIZE in that open 3) on the court at the same time it's not that bad. In fact Ibaka has been fairly solid in this adversity. Then you have Waiters and Jackson providing energy within their roles.

Unfortunately, I don't trust the coach to see this, nor do I trust the players to find these roles on their own.

We can probably be sure to at least see Durant and Westbrook work together, which will be fun.

[cj]

As I mentioned earlier, the Thunder are just not good right now. KD or no KD, they should not be losing to the Knicks. They need a new coach in the worst way (been saying that for three years now) and they need guys that can shoot the ball.