Senate Investigation of CIA Interrogation Techniques

[Ocala Mike]

What, no thread on this yet? Will go ahead and start one with this news report:

http://www.sunjournal.com/news/nation/2014/12/09/senate-report-accuses-cia-illegal-torture/1629208?utm_source=Sun+Journal+List&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=9a2fd54af8-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_term=0_c59a67ec86-9a2fd54af8-195820246

Not a supporter of McCain, but I believe he has the handle on this (and the credentials to speak on it). So what happens, next - pardons for the CIA operatives (just following orders) or charges against them?

[Tom]

Next up?
American will dies, as well as some of our allies.
Obama knows this and doesn't care.
Today, Gruber testifies and Obama needs to blunt the news cycle with this.
No matter who dies.

'casue that's what your president does.

[Greyfox]

What is the Obama Administration's end goal in releasing this report?

Assuming the charges raised are true, the Administration should have quietly gone about correcting and penalizing those involved.
Releasing the findings raises the distinct possibiliy that U.S. Embassies, Soldiers, and Citzens abroad will be placed at heightened risk.

The release of the report is a decision that can have horrible consequences internationally.
Whoever made the decision to release it is either stupid, or has an agenda operating that wants to increase distrust of America throughout the world.
Ruling out stupid, my gut tells me the latter is in place.

[Ocala Mike]

So, it's all about Obama again? At least you guys are sticking to your playbook.

The report concerns activities under another administration (I dare not speak its name). Obama corrected the practice on his second day in office.

[Greyfox]

So, it's all about Obama again? At least you guys are sticking to your playbook.

The report concerns activities under another administration (I dare not speak its name). Obama corrected the practice on his second day in office.

Tell us what the end goal is in releasing this report.
Some things should remain classified information in the sake of security at home and abroad.

[Ocala Mike]

I'll hang my hat on what McCain said.

I suppose the opposite view is expressed by this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA

[Clocker]

What is the Obama Administration's end goal in releasing this report?

The administration disclaimed any connection to the report. Their position is that this is a Senate report, specifically Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.

[FantasticDan]

Obama regarding the release:

Seeking to walk a fine line, Obama said it's important to remember the "enormous pressure" that law enforcement officials were under after the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

"It's important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had," Obama said. "And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots — but having said all that, we did some things that were wrong."

[JustRalph]

How many Gitmo guys will be let out while the news cycle churns?

Who cares.......ho hum.......

[horses4courses]

The late James Foley, and likely other ISIS detainees, were tortured
by "water boarding". Using such techniques brings us down to their level.

The United States is supposed to be better than that.
Popular opinion throughout the world regarding the US
has declined during this century. Conservatives blame Obama.
Not surprisingly, that's far from the truth.
The damage was done well before that, although he hasn't
done enough to rectify the situation.

When we behave like terrorists do, what can we expect?

[thaskalos]

Tell us what the end goal is in releasing this report.
Some things should remain classified information in the sake of security at home and abroad.

Isn't this another way of saying that the citizens of a country don't deserve to know the truth about what their "leaders" are doing? Isn't one of the main problems that we face during times of political unrest that the "authorities" label every incriminating document that they can find as "classified"...in order to keep it out of public view? Do the people want to play a role in the running of their country...or don't they? "Democracy" suggests that they do...

[Clocker]

The United States is supposed to be better than that.

Says who? :D

Read some history.

The Brits condemned colonists during the Revolution for violating accepted standards of conduct by using guerrilla style warfare and (gasp :eek: ) purposely trying to kill British officers.

And that was far from the end of it. The only thing that saved us from war crimes trials over the years was winning.

[horses4courses]

Says who? :D

Read some history.

The Brits condemned colonists during the Revolution for violating accepted standards of conduct by using guerrilla style warfare and (gasp :eek: ) purposely trying to kill British officers.

And that was far from the end of it. The only thing that saved us from war crimes trials over the years was winning.

Here's a small sample of current UK opinion, and they're an ally.
The front page of tomorrow's Guardian:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4cjfrmCQAIJz6h.jpg

[PhantomOnTour]

So, it's all about Obama again? At least you guys are sticking to your playbook.

The report concerns activities under another administration (I dare not speak its name). Obama corrected the practice on his second day in office.
For many on this board it is ALWAYS about Obama...all day, every day.
They can't even wipe their own asses after having a dump, because of Obama.

Some folk are just miserable by nature.

[horses4courses]

I'm taking it for granted that conservatives will side with the CIA.
Hearing the rousing crescendo of "We don't give a ratz" already.

In a nutshell, here are the findings of the 6,000 page report:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/us-senate-panel-s-findings-on-cia-torture-1.2031931

The use of “enhanced interrogation” was ineffective and never produced intelligence that helped to foil an imminent threat.
* The CIA’s 20 most frequently cited examples of successes are wrong in many details and information gained played little or no role in the counter terrorism success.
* The CIA was far more brutal than policymakers were told. The first CIA detainee, Abu Zubaydah, and many others were subjected to coercive interrogation in near non-stop fashion for days or weeks at a time. Zubaydah’s interrogation was allowed to take precedence over his medical care, resulting in the infection and deterioration of a bullet wound he sustained on capture. At one point during waterboarding he became “completely unresponsive with bubbles rising through his open full mouth,” the report said.
* The waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the September 11th, 2001 attacks, evolved into a “series of near drownings,” it said.
* The CIA inaccurately described the conditions under which some prisoners were held, denying they resembled those at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. In fact, detainees at one location were kept in complete darkness and constantly shackled in isolated cells with loud noise or music and only a bucket for human waste.
* Lack of heat at one facility likely contributed to the death of a detainee. Some prisoners were walked around naked with their hands shackled above their heads, while others sometimes were hooded while naked and dragged down corridors while being slapped and punched.
* Prisoners later exhibited psychological problems, including hallucinations, paranoia and attempts at self-injury.
* The CIA provided inaccurate information about the program and its effectiveness to policymakers, including the White House, Congress and the Justice Department. After being briefed, several lawmakers objected.
* Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a Vietnam war prisoner, told the CIA he believed waterboarding and sleep deprivation were torture. Other senators also objected in writing. But the CIA, while seeking to use the techniques against prisoners, told the Justice Department no senators had objected.

[Clocker]

Here's a small sample of current UK opinion, and they're an ally.
The front page of tomorrow's Guardian:


So?

You are dodging the issue. You said, "The United States is supposed to be better than that." I say that is seriously at odds with reality, and I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy surrounding this issue.

[horses4courses]

So?

You are dodging the issue. You said, "The United States is supposed to be better than that." I say that is seriously at odds with reality, and I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy surrounding this issue.

So, behaving like war criminals throughout history is okay by you.
I get it.

[thaskalos]

So?

You are dodging the issue. You said, "The United States is supposed to be better than that." I say that is seriously at odds with reality, and I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy surrounding this issue.

Are you suggesting that the American citizens are not under the impression that their country is "better than that", when it comes to the treatment of its "prisoners of war"?

[Clocker]

So, behaving like war criminals throughout history is okay by you.
I get it.

Obviously you don't get it. (Where is my shocked face?) I pointed out the hypocrisy of your platitude. I pointed out the historic inaccuracy of your platitude. No where, in no way, did I condone what we have done.

[Clocker]

Are you suggesting that the American citizens are not under the impression that their country is "better than that", when it comes to the treatment of its "prisoners of war"?

I am suggesting that American citizens are under that impression, and that they are sadly ignorant of their own history.

[thaskalos]

I am suggesting that American citizens are under that impression, and that they are sadly ignorant of their own history.

Then...I couldn't agree with you more. :ThmbUp:

[horses4courses]

Obviously you don't get it. (Where is my shocked face?) I pointed out the hypocrisy of your platitude. I pointed out the historic inaccuracy of your platitude. No where, in no way, did I condone what we have done.

Semantics.
All you are doing is twisting words and making implications.

There were no war crimes in the 18th century.
Read some history......

[Tom]

So, it's all about Obama again? At least you guys are sticking to your playbook.

The report concerns activities under another administration (I dare not speak its name). Obama corrected the practice on his second day in office.

Of course it is the traitor Feinstein, many she burn in Hell, behind this.
Obama did nothing to stop it.

Playbook?
We are talking about people dying for this political BS. We are talking about our allies not trusting us again. We are talking about this being a recruiting tool for decades to come.

And why?

So Obama can change the news cycle and the lame duck senate dems can insult Bush one more time.

Yes, you are correct, Obama stopped this. Stupid to do, as it was effective.
Since we no longer get intel, Al Qeda has regrown - remember, Obama himself said they were dead. We also now have ISIS, and videos of beheadings.
Good plane by Barry the liar.

But we continue to murder targets with drones.
So illegal murder is preferable to water boarding and loud music?

There is no rational reason to release this crap.
And there is no rational reason to stop doing it.

[Clocker]

There were no war crimes in the 18th century.
Read some history......

There were generally accepted principles of warfare in the 18th century, and the colonists rejected them.

What about WWII? Where there war crimes then? Did the US commit any?

[Tom]

How many Gitmo guys will be let out while the news cycle churns?

Who cares.......ho hum.......

6 to Uruguay this week.

An October opinion poll showed 58% of Uruguayans were opposed to bringing in the prisoners.

[Tom]

When we behave like terrorists do, what can we expect?

But you are OK with illegal drone murders?
Some of these animals were exposed to loud music and kept awake for over 100 hours.

How many of these in the two towers would trade places with them?

Water boarding is done on our own people as training.
The big lie is that WB is somehow a bad thing.
It is not.

[Clocker]

An October opinion poll showed 58% of Uruguayans were opposed to bringing in the prisoners.

No worries. I'm sure they will be just passing through.

[Tom]

For many on this board it is ALWAYS about Obama...all day, every day.
They can't even wipe their own asses after having a dump, because of Obama.

Some folk are just miserable by nature.
When you are the top guy, you take the heat.

Who are we supposed to blame this on......Jimmy Durnate?
This is Obama not doing his job.
And Feinstein committing treason.

[thaskalos]

But you are OK with illegal drone murders?
Some of these animals were exposed to loud music and kept awake for over 100 hours.

How many of these in the two towers would trade places with them?

Water boarding is done on our own people as training.
The big lie is that WB is somehow a bad thing.
It is not.

Then, how is it effective as an "interrogation technique"? If it isn't "bad"...then why are prisoners afraid of it?

[boxcar]

Miserable like this, Phantom? This pic tells me Bam Bam might have missed his daily constitution for a few days.

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/Barack%20and%20Michelle/obama_wut_AP.jpg

[thaskalos]

When you are the top guy, you take the heat.

Who are we supposed to blame this on......Jimmy Durnate?
This is Obama not doing his job.
And Feinstein committing treason.

And Tom defending the indefensible. Telling people the truth is "treason". :rolleyes:

[Tom]

It is not as bad as a drone strike.
Obama murders people.
Water boarded people walk away from it with no permanent injuries.

They are afraid of it because it is terrorizing to them.
That is why it is effective.

[Tom]

And Tom defending the indefensible. Telling people the truth is "treason". :rolleyes:

Learn to read, Gus.
Releasing this benefit no one here and benefits our enemies.

You know, those animals that flew airplanes into the WTC and Pentagon?
And now behead innocent people.

People are going to die because of this.
But that is not your problem, is it?

[thaskalos]

It is not as bad as a drone strike.
Obama murders people.
Water boarded people walk away from it with no permanent injuries.

They are afraid of it because it is terrorizing to them.
That is why it is effective.

That's not what you said before. You said that "WB isn't bad. We do it to our own people as training". Of course, it isn't quite the same when we "do it to our own people as training"...is it? I mean...I'm pretty sure that our own people, who are being trained, know that they are not really going to drown.

[horses4courses]

There were generally accepted principles of warfare in the 18th century, and the colonists rejected them.

What about WWII? Where there war crimes then? Did the US commit any?

I can look up the history as easily as you.
Yes, war crimes were committed in WWII,
and Americans were found guilty.

For some Americans, the rules should have changed after 9-11.
Rounding up every Muslim who was deemed to be responsible
was cathartic. Hanging them upside down by the gonads was
a means to an end - we had to get to the bottom of that heinous
crime committed in September, 2001 - and we had to have justice.

You can't consider yourself to be civilized if you condone animal tactics.
Yes, I believe that America is better than that, and that we could get
justice for crimes committed against us without becoming terrorists ourselves.

[thaskalos]

Learn to read, Gus.
Releasing this benefit no one here and benefits our enemies.

You know, those animals that flew airplanes into the WTC and Pentagon?
And now behead innocent people.

People are going to die because of this.
But that is not your problem, is it?

That's what governments ALWAYS say when they want to suppress the truth, Tom. But the people have the right to know ANYWAY. That's how it is when you live in a "democracy". Who decides what gets released to the people...and what gets suppressed? Don't we WANT to know what really happens? Do we really like to keep our heads stuck in the sand?

[Native Texan III]

What is the Obama Administration's end goal in releasing this report?

Assuming the charges raised are true, the Administration should have quietly gone about correcting and penalizing those involved.
Releasing the findings raises the distinct possibiliy that U.S. Embassies, Soldiers, and Citzens abroad will be placed at heightened risk.

The release of the report is a decision that can have horrible consequences internationally.
Whoever made the decision to release it is either stupid, or has an agenda operating that wants to increase distrust of America throughout the world.
Ruling out stupid, my gut tells me the latter is in place.

The rest of the World has known about this for years and holds USA in contempt for it. Not just the doing of it in contempt of USA law but wilfully lieing about it to the American public. Publishing the report makes the wilder suspicions of how low the CIA sunk maybe a little more balanced. So don't expect much reaction terror-wise, but politically it will be used to damn USA as hypocrites for decades.

[Tom]

That's not what you said before. You said that "WB isn't bad. We do it to our own people as training". Of course, it isn't quite the same when we "do it to our own people as training"...is it? I mean...I'm pretty sure that our own people, who are being trained, know that they are not really going to drown.

Weak.
very weak.

[Greyfox]

That's what governments ALWAYS say when they want to suppress the truth, Tom. But the people have the right to know ANYWAY.

Information that puts the general public at serious risk at home or abroad should not be released until such a time that the risk is diminished.
Then, they have a right to know.

[thaskalos]

Information that puts the general public at serious risk at home or abroad should not be released until such a time that the risk is diminished.
Then, they have a right to know.

People should not have to wait 50 years to find out that their governments are lying to them.

[Greyfox]

People should not have to wait 50 years to find out that their governments are lying to them.

Governments don't need to lie.
They don't need to say or publish anything until the risk is reduced, be that 5 years or 65 years.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by thaskalos
People should not have to wait 50 years to find out that their governments are lying to them.

Been longer than that for Kennedy.
You leading the charge for full disclosure on that one?

[horses4courses]

No surprise, but Dick Cheney is heavily featured at key points in the report.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/12/dick-cheney-cia-torture-report

Cheney blew off Senate leaders investigating the CIA interrogation program as early as 2005.

Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.)—a senior member of the Senate Intelligence Committee at the time—called for a formal investigation of torture, but Cheney clearly wasn't interested.

[Clocker]

Information that puts the general public at serious risk at home or abroad should not be released until such a time that the risk is diminished.
Then, they have a right to know.

Suspicious minds (certainly not I :rolleyes: ) suggest that the timing of the release might be slightly tinged with politics. :eek:

The immediate trigger on the release was the November elections. The report was done by the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) is the chair of that committee. This report is her baby. In January, Feinstein looses the chair, and therefore, control of the report. If she didn't release it now, the Republicans in the new Senate would gain control of it and its release.

The administration was against the release before it was in favor of it. John Kerry tried to talk Feinstein into a delay, supposedly to better prepare our allies for it. When that didn't happen, Obama's press secretary said that they were in favor of it.

By making the release entirely Feinstein's choice, the administration keeps its hands clean as far as conducting or releasing the report, but can use it for the next two years to bash Bush, Cheney, and friends, and to try to associate it with the next GOP candidate.

[horses4courses]

Now he's in prison for espionage.

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/blog/torturer-whistleblower-reporter-spy-john-kiriakou?utm_source=mbtwitter

[PhantomOnTour]

Miserable like this, Phantom? This pic tells me Bam Bam might have missed his daily constitution for a few days.

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/Barack%20and%20Michelle/obama_wut_AP.jpg
Thx for making my point, you obsessed zealot.
Went straight to the web to find a picture of Obama making a sad face, then posted it here with the usual childish innuendo and speculation that has become the calling card of the desperate right.

Now hop back upon that high horse and resume your Bible studies.

[JustRalph]

For many on this board it is ALWAYS about Obama...all day, every day.
They can't even wipe their own asses after having a dump, because of Obama.

Some folk are just miserable by nature.

Some of us are enjoying watching him crash and burn. It was predicted. It's like picking a winning horse that strolls past the 3/5 favorite who is fading to last in the last 1/16th.

Many tearing up their Obama tickets.......

[thaskalos]

Some of us are enjoying watching him crash and burn. It was predicted. It's like picking a winning horse that strolls past the 3/5 favorite who is fading to last in the last 1/16th.

Many tearing up their Obama tickets.......
Who was that "winning horse" that you guys "picked', who strolled past the fading 3/5 favorite?

[PhantomOnTour]

Some of us are enjoying watching him crash and burn. It was predicted. It's like picking a winning horse that strolls past the 3/5 favorite who is fading to last in the last 1/16th.

Many tearing up their Obama tickets.......
It used to be that Obama was destroying the country and yada yada.
Now you're trying to tell me you find this enjoyable?

Okie dokie :D

If this is how y'all act when "enjoying" something, I'd hate to be around you when you really get upset

[davew]

So, it's all about Obama again? At least you guys are sticking to your playbook.

The report concerns activities under another administration (I dare not speak its name). Obama corrected the practice on his second day in office.


Obama has done well with the unjustly held detainees, but it has taken quite a few years. I am shocked that he did not just let them all go (in first couple weeks) and ask them to be nice (not that they would become terrorists or political assassins or anything).

[horses4courses]

Who was that "winning horse" that you guys "picked', who strolled past the fading 3/5 favorite?

You know, thask....it's part of that multi-horse entry.
The one with the shady connections, who have a hard
time winning back to back races. ;)

[JustRalph]

Who was that "winning horse" that you guys "picked', who strolled past the fading 3/5 favorite?

His name is history, or legacy.......you choose.

Think back to those Foolish teachers who taught their students to sing about "Barack Hussein Obama !" How about the "Obama girl" or the people who cheered and cried in the park on election night? Investing so much of themselves in a man with not one accomplishment on his record. Evangelizing to the world about a man Who had done nothing.

We heard how smart he was in spite of him hiding his college transcripts etc from the world. We heard how well he was going to perform abroad. That he would charm the world. Instead he stepped back and a lack of leadership has allowed most of the world to crumble. When he did step in, he backed the evil. The Muslim brotherhood he backed, Morsi et al. He screwed up on Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Putin has made him look like Willie Loman.

Congrats Obama voters. You've given us a lost decade. And in the long run, a lost generation. Look around at your kids and grand kids. Explain to them, your vote.

[JustRalph]

Liberal news outlets were provided a copy of this report weeks ago. They promised not to reveal anything until today. "Other" news outlets were denied access.

This should be a crime

[JustRalph]

http://www.ciasavedlives.com/

CIA side of things

[thaskalos]

His name is history, or legacy.......you choose.

Think back to those Foolish teachers who taught their students to sing about "Barack Hussein Obama !" How about the "Obama girl" or the people who cheered and cried in the park on election night? Investing so much of themselves in a man with not one accomplishment on his record. Evangelizing to the world about a man Who had done nothing.

We heard how smart he was in spite of him hiding his college transcripts etc from the world. We heard how well he was going to perform abroad. That he would charm the world. Instead he stepped back and a lack of leadership has allowed most of the world to crumble. When he did step in, he backed the evil. The Muslim brotherhood he backed, Morsi et al. He screwed up on Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Putin has made him look like Willie Loman.

Congrats Obama voters. You've given us a lost decade. And in the long run, a lost generation. Look around at your kids and grand kids. Explain to them, your vote.

I would suggest that you guys look around at the list of GOP presidential candidates...so you can explain to your kids your vote in the next presidential election. :)

[FantasticDan]

Liberal news outlets were provided a copy of this report weeks ago. They promised not to reveal anything until today. "Other" news outlets were denied access.Please substantiate this.

[JustRalph]

Please substantiate this.

It's been tweeted and verified by reporters.

[Tom]

No surprise, but Dick Cheney is heavily featured at key points in the report.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/12/dick-cheney-cia-torture-report

Dick Cheney is more of an American than Obama will ever be.
God forbid we had some ass clown like Kerry the WH back then.

[JustRalph]

http://twitchy.com/2014/12/09/overlooked-in-torture-report-how-many-terrorists-were-forced-to-burn-alive-or-jump-to-their-deaths/?utm_source=autotweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter

Interesting comment

[Tom]

Some people think this is preferable to a few scumbags getting their heads wet.
And they live among us.
Sad.

[FantasticDan]

It's been tweeted and verified by reporters.I figured. :rolleyes:

[Tom]

Waiting for Colbert to verify it?

[JustRalph]

I figured. :rolleyes:

Here, take it up with Bloomburg news and CNN

Stephen Hayes at Fox et al was denied the report when he made the same request

[delayjf]

Isn't all of this old news? It's been no secret that the CIA water boarded some terrorist. Heck sleep deprivation and water boarding, sounds like a typical day of a Navy Seal going thru BUDS training.

[JustRalph]

Isn't all of this old news? It's been no secret that the CIA water boarded some terrorist. Heck sleep deprivation and water boarding, sounds like a typical day of a Navy Seal going thru BUDS training.

Seals don't get there dinner shoved up their ass. That's a little different......

[Tom]

Dinner up my ass, burn alive, jump off the top of WTC.......

You decide.
I have no problem with it.
None at all. I would help administer it if I could.

[newtothegame]

People should not have to wait 50 years to find out that their governments are lying to them.
Care to explain why the Kennedy Files were locked down for ...ummmm yeah like 50 years!

How about the NSA and its spying on its OWN people????

How about all the diversion away from Benghazi......"It doesn't matter".......??????

This was nothing more then a political stunt to get at the right side of the aisle and divert attention away from gruber.....(who was by pure coincidence I am sure :bang: ) going to be all over the news if there wasn't some "other" story released!

[thaskalos]

Care to explain why the Kennedy Files were locked down for ...ummmm yeah like 50 years!

How about the NSA and its spying on its OWN people????

How about all the diversion away from Benghazi......"It doesn't matter".......??????

This was nothing more then a political stunt to get at the right side of the aisle and divert attention away from gruber.....(who was by pure coincidence I am sure :bang: ) going to be all over the news if there wasn't some "other" story released!

I believe in full transparency in government. The politicians are civil servants...and they work for the PEOPLE. But the people have fallen asleep at the wheel...and the politicians have taken advantage of the situation, and have assumed the role of our LEADERS. Instead of representing our best interests, they look out only for themselves and their cronies...and act as if they are our PARENTS...passing ridiculous laws which bully us, and take away our freedoms.

Of COURSE this is just a clever diversion...this is how things are done whenever smokescreens are employed in order to confuse the people and divert their attention from the real issues. Wasn't the Monica Lewinsky saga another political stunt, meant to divert people's attention away from the legal mess that the Clintons were submerged into at that time? These diversions are employed because they WORK. Give the people a sexy little topic to chew on for a while...and they'll forget about everything else.

Oldest trick in the book.

[Tom]

Had Roosevelt told the 100% truth, we probably would have lost WWII.
you are aware of the multitude of lies Obama has told - how has that improved your life?

[Spiderman]

Had Roosevelt told the 100% truth, we probably would have lost WWII.
you are aware of the multitude of lies Obama has told - how has that improved your life?

Wrong, again and again.

FDR had to deal with isolationists who are akin to people like you. Try reading and understanding American history. A recommended starter book is "Roosevelt and Hopkins"

[JustRalph]

Tom, I didn't say I cared that they shoved their dinner up their asses...... :lol:

I default back to my old position. I don't care at all what we do to them. I put myself in the place of those people who had to choose to jump from the Twin Towers......... what would they decide? Would they care? I doubt it.

[Tom]

Wrong, again and again.

FDR had to deal with isolationists who are akin to people like you. Try reading and understanding American history. A recommended starter book is "Roosevelt and Hopkins"

And he dealt with them by lying to them.
No one wanted to go to war, but he planned on it and lied that we were not.

[Hank]

His name is history, or legacy.......you choose.

Think back to those Foolish teachers who taught their students to sing about "Barack Hussein Obama !" How about the "Obama girl" or the people who cheered and cried in the park on election night? Investing so much of themselves in a man with not one accomplishment on his record. Evangelizing to the world about a man Who had done nothing.

We heard how smart he was in spite of him hiding his college transcripts etc from the world. We heard how well he was going to perform abroad. That he would charm the world. Instead he stepped back and a lack of leadership has allowed most of the world to crumble. When he did step in, he backed the evil. The Muslim brotherhood he backed, Morsi et al. He screwed up on Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Putin has made him look like Willie Loman.

Congrats Obama voters. You've given us a lost decade. And in the long run, a lost generation. Look around at your kids and grand kids. Explain to them, your vote.

I hate to break the news to you Ralph, but what you assert here is nonsense.You point out that Obama was essentially a Blank canvas, true enough, but if this indicates that his backers were foolish to think he would succeed because of too many unknowns, then those predicting his failure were equally foolish.

[Spiderman]

[QUOTE=Tom]And he dealt with them by lying to them.
No one wanted to go to war, but he planned on it and lied that we were not.[/QUOTE

FDR made end runs around the isolationist opposition to garner production capabilities that proved to be the winning ingredient for winning the war. That, and the resolve and determination of a great fighting force. Isolationists wanted to only protect American shorelines and were still uncomfortable with the loss of American lives on foreign land in WWI.

Those isolationists, pro-Nazi supporters are today's conservative wing.

[Greyfox]

Those isolationists, pro-Nazi supporters are today's conservative wing.

Your arguments had some credibility until that point. :ThmbDown:

[Spiderman]

Your arguments had some credibility until that point. :ThmbDown:
When dealing with Tom, below the belt punches are in order.

[Tom]

When you are an ass clown, that is how you act.
Thank you for being consistent.

I took your advice and did little reading on history....seems you have the wrong party goose-stepping around. Not surprising, ass clowns frequently get it backwards, what with their heads so far up there in the dark.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329556/How-JFK-secretly-ADMIRED-Hitler-Explosive-book-reveals-Presidents-praise-Nazis-travelled-Germany-Second-World-War.html

[JustRalph]

I hate to break the news to you Ralph, but what you assert here is nonsense.You point out that Obama was essentially a Blank canvas, true enough, but if this indicates that his backers were foolish to think he would succeed because of too many unknowns, then those predicting his failure were equally foolish.

we can disagree. Past accomplishments mean something. Obama had none. Especially in the real world.

[Tom]

The only ones dumber than Obama are the ones who thought he had a shot at success! :lol:

His failure was inevitable.

[Spiderman]

When you are an ass clown, that is how you act.
Thank you for being consistent.

I took your advice and did little reading on history....seems you have the wrong party goose-stepping around. Not surprising, ass clowns frequently get it backwards, what with their heads so far up there in the dark.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329556/How-JFK-secretly-ADMIRED-Hitler-Explosive-book-reveals-Presidents-praise-Nazis-travelled-Germany-Second-World-War.html

The link for The Daily Mail, a truly hard-nosed journalistic endeavor, has the wrong Kennedy as pro-Germany. It was his dad, Joe, who wanted appeasement with Germany in WWII

[ArlJim78]

this report was pure partisan grandstanding and a timely distraction for the lame duck shenanigans going on.
al Qaeda wishes they could damage the US as effectively as the democrat party does.

[Clocker]

this report was pure partisan grandstanding and a timely distraction for the lame duck shenanigans going on.


They had to get the report out this month because Feinstein and the Dems lose control of the committee next month. If the report was not out by then, the Republicans would have taken charge of the investigation.

Preliminary reports in the media are that the committee did not interview or take testimony from any of the CIA people involved.

[JustRalph]

Don't forget. This report cost 40 million bucks to produce

[FantasticDan]

Preliminary reports in the media are that the committee did not interview or take testimony from any of the CIA people involved.Six million pages of CIA internal documents were reviewed. There were no interviews because the CIA program was under criminal investigation and CIA staff were not likely (or willing) to talk.

[Clocker]

There were no interviews because the CIA program was under criminal investigation and CIA staff were not likely (or willing) to talk.

The CIA people involved say that excuse is nonsense.

The following is from a WSJ response to the report written by former CIA Directors George J. Tenet, Porter J. Goss and Michael V. Hayden (a retired Air Force general), and former CIA Deputy Directors John E. McLaughlin, Albert M. Calland (a retired Navy vice admiral) and Stephen R. Kappes.

The Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on Central Intelligence Agency detention and interrogation of terrorists, prepared only by the Democratic majority staff, is a missed opportunity to deliver a serious and balanced study of an important public policy question. The committee has given us instead a one-sided study marred by errors of fact and interpretation—essentially a poorly done and partisan attack on the agency that has done the most to protect America after the 9/11 attacks.

...

How did the committee report get these things so wrong? Astonishingly, the staff avoided interviewing any of us who had been involved in establishing or running the program, the first time a supposedly comprehensive Senate Select Committee on Intelligence study has been carried out in this way.

The excuse given by majority senators is that CIA officers were under investigation by the Justice Department and therefore could not be made available. This is nonsense. The investigations referred to were completed in 2011 and 2012 and applied only to certain officers. They never applied to six former CIA directors and deputy directors, all of whom could have added firsthand truth to the study. Yet a press account indicates that the committee staff did see fit to interview at least one attorney for a terrorist at Guantanamo Bay.

We can only conclude that the committee members or staff did not want to risk having to deal with data that did not fit their construct. Which is another reason why the study is so flawed. What went on in preparing the report is clear: The staff picked up the signal at the outset that this study was to have a certain outcome, especially with respect to the question of whether the interrogation program produced intelligence that helped stop terrorists. The staff members then “cherry picked” their way through six million pages of documents, ignoring some data and highlighting others, to construct their argument against the program’s effectiveness.

In the intelligence profession, that is called politicization.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644

[horses4courses]

Tom, I didn't say I cared that they shoved their dinner up their asses...... :lol:

I default back to my old position. I don't care at all what we do to them. I put myself in the place of those people who had to choose to jump from the Twin Towers......... what would they decide? Would they care? I doubt it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4iQo1HCcAAFwxO.jpg

[horses4courses]

You know, I respect W at least 100% more than I do his VP.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4gW-TCCcAA1FoQ.png


Here's the guy:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4a_GWaIUAAPgHy.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4iUdbaCQAEXxT2.jpg

[davew]

The drone program is much more effective - blow-up everyone within 50 feet of 'possible target' including innocents, women and children. Just a waste of time interrogating people when the best and brightest are scanning the internet to detect stuff like the video on youtube that caused the Benghazi riots...

[Clocker]

You know, I respect W at least 100% more than I do his VP.

Like him or not, Cheney at least expresses his own opinions in his own words, without resorting to prepackaged, low information, low class agitprop.

You have to respect him for that. :cool:

[Tom]

and CIA staff were not likely (or willing) to talk.

Who refused?
Who was asked?

[Tom]

So H4C, when does your Holiday school beak begin?

[JustRalph]

I love Dick Cheney.....

[horses4courses]

So H4C, when does your Holiday school beak begin?

That your best shot?
You're slipping, chimp.......

[Clocker]

I love Dick Cheney.....

Cheney did an interview with Bret Baier on Fox tonight. He told it like it was.

Later in the show during the panel section, Jonah Goldberg referred to it as a Jack Nicholson moment: "You're god damn right I ordered a Code Red."

[JustRalph]

I am holding an expensive bottle of champagne for the day he finally dies. But, as they say...only the good die young.

I think he received the heart of a 43 yr old if I remember right. He might outlive many of us

[horses4courses]

I think he received the heart of a 43 yr old if I remember right. He might outlive many of us

That man has no heart - never had, never will.

[thaskalos]

Easily the most despicable man to ever hold political office. :ThmbDown:

[FantasticDan]

Very interesting Vanity Fair article on a couple psychologists run amok:

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/12/psychologists-cia-torture-report

[Tom]

That your best shot?
You're slipping, chimp.......

You aren't worth my A game.
Low hanging fruit is just for warm ups.

[ArlJim78]

This country could use more Dick Cheney's. He's one of the most solid individuals to hold high office in my lifetime. vastly misunderstood and under appreciated.

[Tom]

Dittos.
On the old PA board, I posted that Bush was the right man for the job in 2000, mainly because he had a winning team with experience, led by Cheney.
I was not disappointed.


In this world, we need more like him and far less like Doofus Obama.

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[delayjf]

then those predicting his failure were equally foolish.
IMO, It's hardly a stretch and in fact more probable to predict that someone with Obama's resume would fail as the leader of the free world.

[delayjf]

Easily the most despicable man to ever hold political office.

Really? So Chaney's got it all over Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, I could go on and on.

I get a kick out of how much the left despises Chaney. :lol:

[Greyfox]

Dittos.
On the old PA board, I posted that Bush was the right man for the job in 2000, mainly because he had a winning team with experience, led by Cheney.
I was not disappointed.


In this world, we need more like him and far less like Doofus Obama.

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

Yes....and by 2008 there are posts by you here that are screaming that he was a traitor too or words to that effect.

[Tom]

True, and he probably deserved it, too.
But the fact is, his influence saved many lives.
A man can be doing good and bad things at the same time.

Cheney of Kerry......who do you want on your side when the going gets tough?

Iron Man or Mr. Damp Trousers

[Greyfox]

Cheney of Kerry......who do you want on your side when the going gets tough?

Iron Man or Mr. Damp Trousers

Good one. :ThmbUp: :lol:

[Clocker]

Maybe that is who we are. A Rasmussen poll asked if we should use waterboarding and other techniques. 47% said yes, 33% said no, and 20% said they weren't sure.

Article. (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/december_2014/despite_report_voters_still_see_value_in_cia_inter rogation_tactics)

[ReplayRandall]

Maybe that is who we are. A Rasmussen poll asked if we should use waterboarding and other techniques. 47% said yes, 33% said no, and 20% said they weren't sure.

Article. (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/december_2014/despite_report_voters_still_see_value_in_cia_inter rogation_tactics)


Imagine for a moment, if this poll is accurate, how many thousands of innocent Americans will die NEEDLESSLY, because we won't force info out of an enemy combatant to save those lives? How many more 9/11's do we need to see before we all say "OK, do whatever it takes"? How do you like living in a country where 53% of the population are nothing but unpatriotic dumbasses? How quickly you cowards forget those already murdered.......Guess who's next?

[Tom]

So far, everyone has walked out of GITMOl
How many walked of the WTC?

I say, use hot water!

[horses4courses]

Physical torture has been proved to be largely ineffective.
All it really achieves is to make the armchair Rambos feel better about life.

Helps their cocoa slip down a little easier on a winter's night
when they envisage Ahmed having his nails pulled out by a pliers,
or increasing the voltage on that rectal cattle prod.

Time for another log on the fire........

[ReplayRandall]

Physical torture has been proved to be largely ineffective.
All it really achieves is to make the armchair Rambos feel better about life.

Helps their cocoa slip down a little easier on a winter's night
when they envisage Ahmed having his nails pulled out by a pliers,
or increasing the voltage on that rectal cattle prod.

Time for another log on the fire........


H4C, I served my country to protect the freedom of speech you currently have. It's been my pleasure to read your ASININE post.......I'm sure you'll keep them coming. That's how I SLEEP well at night........BTW, سأقول لكم شيئا

[Clocker]

Physical torture has been proved to be largely ineffective.

You know this from personal experience?

Six former Directors and Deputy Directors of the CIA fired back at the Senate Intelligence Committee with a vehemence almost never seen in the intelligence world.
...

The former directors argue that the CIA interrogation program “saved thousands of lives” by helping lead to the capture of top al Qaeda operatives and disrupting their plotting.
...

This is the first opportunity for these former intelligence chiefs to respond to the allegations made in the report: None of them — in fact no current or former CIA officials — were interviewed by the Senate Intelligence Committee for their report.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cia-directors-interrogation-program-saved-thousands-lives/story?id=27470215

[thaskalos]

H4C, I served my country to protect the freedom of speech you currently have. It's been my pleasure to read your ASININE post.......I'm sure you'll keep them coming. That's how I SLEEP well at night......

May I ask you a question without upsetting you, Randall? How would you expect to get treated by the enemy, if you yourself happened to be captured while serving your country? Is this "do whatever it takes" attitude recommended for our enemies too?

Whoever opposes torture is not being "patriotic", all of a sudden?

[thaskalos]

You know this from personal experience?



http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cia-directors-interrogation-program-saved-thousands-lives/story?id=27470215

How did you expect the former CIA directors and deputy directors to respond?

[ReplayRandall]

May I ask you a question without upsetting you, Randall? How would you expect to get treated by the enemy, if you yourself happened to be captured while serving your country? Is this "do whatever it takes" attitude recommended for our enemies too?

Whoever opposes torture is not being "patriotic", all of a sudden?

I knew the consequences going in Gus, it's called Sacrifice......

[horses4courses]

H4C, I served my country to protect the freedom of speech you currently have. It's been my pleasure to read your ASININE post.......I'm sure you'll keep them coming. That's how I SLEEP well at night........BTW, سأقول لكم شيئا

Thank you for serving our country.

I would venture to guess that the US military involved in the campaign
in which you served treated prisoners better than we have at Gitmo.

[Clocker]

May I ask you a question without upsetting you, Randall? How would you expect to get treated by the enemy, if you yourself happened to be captured while serving your country? Is this "do whatever it takes" attitude recommended for our enemies too?

Do you think that if we stopped water-boarding, ISIS would reciprocate and stop beheading western prisoners?

[Clocker]

How did you expect the former CIA directors and deputy directors to respond?

I would expect the CIA to have stopped using interrogation methods that didn't work.

Which is moot, because the CIA officials were not given the opportunity to respond.

[thaskalos]

Do you think that if we stopped water-boarding, ISIS would reciprocate and stop beheading western prisoners?

The USA is the leader of the free world, not a renegade terrorist group...so a higher standard of conduct is expected...IMO.

Let me ask you a question, Clocker:

If these torture techniques were indeed as effective as the CIA is making them out to be...then why did the CIA agree to disallow these techniques to begin with? Was it because they knew that they would continue to employ them, even as the President vowed that they would never again be allowed to take place?

[Clocker]

The USA is the leader of the free world, not a renegade terrorist group...so a higher standard of conduct is expected...IMO.

I agree. You have to admit that water-boarding is a much higher standard of conduct than beheading. :cool:

[thaskalos]

I knew the consequences going in Gus, it's called Sacrifice......

I noticed that you accused the 20% who were undecided on the torture issue of being unpatriotic too, Randall. Just because you "served your country" doesn't mean that you can dictate to people what true patriotism is. How do you know what those who oppose torture have done for their country?

[ReplayRandall]

How do you know what those who oppose torture have done for their country?

Neither one of us truly knows the answer to the question you've just posed.......I have a better frame of reference than 99% of the population that hasn't served in the military. It still doesn't suffice, even though I had the second highest security clearance in the Armed Forces. The world we both grew up in, under the Geneva Convention, no longer exists, but I'm sure you're already aware of that. My question to you is, How do you erase what you've seen and can't forget?

[thaskalos]

Neither one of us truly knows the answer to the question you've just posed.......I have a better frame of reference than 99% of the population that hasn't served in the military. It still doesn't suffice, even though I had the second highest security clearance in the Armed Forces. The world we both grew up in, under the Geneva Convention, no longer exists, but I'm sure you're already aware of that. My question to you is, How do you erase what you've seen and can't forget?
You cannot erase what you've seen and can't forget. But what you can do is realize who your enemies and who your friends are. We all see things differently, even if we've shared the same experiences...so we are liable to have differences of opinion between us. Am I really an "unpatriotic coward", just because I don't share your opinion on the CIA "enhanced interrogation techniques"? One belief that I might hold is enough for you to make such a hasty judgement about me...without you even knowing me?

You've seen things that you can't forget...and so have I. Does that mean that we can't have respect for each other's opinion...even if our opinions clash? The mere fact that someone disagrees with you about something doesn't mean that he isn't your friend. We are all a lot deeper than that.

[Tom]

Cheney on Meet the Press this morning - GREAT interview.
Tells it like it is, including jabs at both the UN and the Senate Dems.

He would be the best choice for 2106 of anyone out there.
Discuss among yourselves! :eek:


byw, who is the lightweight idiot of a host for that show theses days?
I've seen better in high school debates. NBC looking to keep cost low by hiring the inept? :lol: :lol:

[horses4courses]

Cheney on Meet the Press this morning - GREAT interview.
Tells it like it is, including jabs at both the UN and the Senate Dems.

He would be the best choice for 2106 of anyone out there.
Discuss among yourselves! :eek:


byw, who is the lightweight idiot of a host for that show theses days?
I've seen better in high school debates. NBC looking to keep cost low by hiring the inept? :lol: :lol:

Bring him on.....he has more skeletons in his cupboard than Ted Bundy

[ReplayRandall]

Does that mean that we can't have respect for each other's opinion...even if our opinions clash? The mere fact that someone disagrees with you about something doesn't mean that he isn't your friend. We are all a lot deeper than that.


Gus, Καλά Χριστούγεννα και ευτυχισμένο το νέο έτος!

[delayjf]

Physical torture has been proved to be largely ineffective.
All it really achieves is to make the armchair Rambos feel better about life.

If that's actually true, then why do you think the CIA does it?

[FantasticDan]

eym6adS_rfY

[horses4courses]

If that's actually true, then why do you think the CIA does it?

They're trying to obtain information. That's the objective, right?
If we're not succeeding in doing that, what other benefits to torture are there?
The "feel good" factor. The sense of comfort in humiliating an enemy
that has inflicted pain on you, and your people, through cruel actions.

The report showed that some CIA agents had no training in interrogation.
Why?
Modern interrogation techniques are more effective than physical torture.
Any useful information obtained was likely achieved this way.

Resorting to inhuman torture tactics makes us no better than ISIS.

[woodtoo]

I like you a lot more than ISIS, does that make me better or worse? :)

[horses4courses]

I like you a lot more than ISIS, does that make me better or worse? :)

Thank you, sir.

All of us here are better human beings than those ISIS animals.
We should hold ourselves to higher standards.

[Clocker]

If we're not succeeding in doing that, what other benefits to torture are there?
The "feel good" factor.

Speaking from personal experience?

Or personal fantasy? :D

[reckless]

Bring him on.....he has more skeletons in his cupboard than Ted Bundy

Typical low-rent response comparing a great American patriot with a serial killer. Are you really that much of an idiot or do you act this way for affect?

I'll enlighten you just a bit on some of Cheney's accomplishments.

Vice-president of the United States

Secretary of Defense

Minority Whip, House of Representatives

U S Congressman

White House Chief of Staff

CEO of a major Fortune 500 international corporation, Haliburton.

This country will be blessed if Dick Cheney ran in 2016 President against the Democrat Party roster of failures, phonies and dopes.

Imagine this once-great country having to choose between Dick Cheney and any of the following:

Hillary Clinton, sex deviant enabler and chronic failure; faux squaw Elizabeth Warren; plagarist, lifetime dope and world-wide fool, Joe Biden; spoiled incoherent sissy boy, Andrew Cuomo and many other left wing clowns, too many to list.

[Greyfox]

Modern interrogation techniques are more effective than physical torture.
.

I don't agree with torture, but I'd be surprised if "modern interrogation techniques" are more effective in obtaining information.
Can you point us to any studies which demonstrate that assertion?

In the meanwhile, I'd say there are a lot of countries who are more skilled than America at obtaining information through torture.
What we in North America consider to be torture, is nowhere near the degree of cruelty that some foreign regimes have been capable of throughout history.

[Tom]

If we're not succeeding in doing that, what other benefits to torture are there?

Because it did work.You keep ignore the truth, as always.
The senate report is a comic book. It says what a bunch of lame duck, rejected democrats want it to say. They know that fools like you will buy it all.

If we did water board, Bin Laden would be alive today.

[Clocker]

The senate report is a comic book.

It's worse than that, it is a witch hunt. As has been pointed out, any "real" legislative report would document problems in the government structure or processes, and would recommend changes in rules and regulations or needed changes in the law. There is no attempt to do anything constructive here. It is a smear, period.

A comic book would at least show the bad guys, and have the good guys doing battle with them. How can you investigate people without ever talking to them? Talk about "that's not who we are". We pride ourselves on being a system that never finds people guilty without giving them an opportunity to defend themselves.

[horses4courses]

Typical low-rent response comparing a great American patriot with a serial killer. Are you really that much of an idiot or do you act this way for affect?

I'll enlighten you just a bit on some of Cheney's accomplishments.

Vice-president of the United States

Secretary of Defense

Minority Whip, House of Representatives

U S Congressman

White House Chief of Staff

CEO of a major Fortune 500 international corporation, Haliburton.

This country will be blessed if Dick Cheney ran in 2016 President against the Democrat Party roster of failures, phonies and dopes.

Imagine this once-great country having to choose between Dick Cheney and any of the following:

Hillary Clinton, sex deviant enabler and chronic failure; faux squaw Elizabeth Warren; plagarist, lifetime dope and world-wide fool, Joe Biden; spoiled incoherent sissy boy, Andrew Cuomo and many other left wing clowns, too many to list.

I'll grant you this much - he was the most influential VP in modern times.
That is not a commendation.
The man is a liar - and much of his personal success
has been built on deception.

That being said, I would love to see him run in 2016.
He stands for everything that right-minded Americans would vote against.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B41VrZgCcAAHDqW.jpg

[Clocker]

The "Senate report" does not confirm, it alleges without proof. And does so without talking to CIA officials that assert facts to the contrary. The "report" is a joke. As is that graphic.

[ArlJim78]

Former CIA official. Feinstein and Pelosi were briefed on waterboarding, they didn't object.

On "Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace," Jose Rodriguez, the former director of the National Clandestine Service of the CIA said members of Congress where briefed dozens of times on the enhanced interrogation techniques including Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), and Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) and they did not voice any objection.
Rodriguez said, "I remember very clearly briefing Nancy Pelosi in September of 2002. The Congress had been on break, as soon as they got back from break in September, the first thing I did is I went to brief her and the Chairman of the House Select Committee on intelligence at the time. We briefed her, and I was not the only one who came from the agency. I had my lawyers with her. We briefed her specifically on the use of the enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubeta. She knew back in September of 2002 every one of our enhanced interrogation [techniques]."
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/12/14/Former-CIA-Official-Pelosi-Feinstein-Rockefeller-all-Briefed-and-Didnt-Object-to-Waterboarding

[JustRalph]

I'll grant you this much - he was the most influential VP in modern times.
That is not a commendation.
The man is a liar - and much of his personal success
has been built on deception.

That being said, I would love to see him run in 2016.
He stands for everything that right-minded Americans would vote against.



The man is a liar - and much of his personal success
has been built on deception.

Let's explore this one? show us where? How? etc

His personal success? Get on it...........

[horses4courses]

The man is a liar - and much of his personal success
has been built on deception.

Let's explore this one? show us where? How? etc

His personal success? Get on it...........

Here's a little history on Cheney's dealings at Halliburton,
which is foremost in his financial success:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/LEO304B.html

Kellogg Brown & Root, the company chosen last month by the Pentagon to extinguish oil well fires in Iraq, has a long history of supporting the same terrorist regimes vilified by the Bush administration and on at least one occasion defrauded the United States government to the tune of $2 million, according to public documents.

Halliburton, headed by Dick Cheney before he became vice president, and it’s KBR subsidiary did business with some of the world's most notorious governments and dictators - in countries such as Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Libya and Nigeria. The company has routinely skirted U.S. sanctions placed on these countries and lobbied the U.S. government to lift sanctions so it could set up new partnerships and create new business opportunities in these countries.

Still, the Pentagon awarded the Iraqi oil well contract to KBR without competitive bidding; a move that some Democratic lawmakers in Congress said was based on favoritism because of Cheney’s ties to the company.

Charges of cronyism led the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers on Monday to open the job of putting out Iraqi oil well fires to other firms that will now bid for the multibillion -dollar and KBR would have to compete with other companies for the right to finish the job. The Army Corps of Engineers said it would seek new bidders to rebuild Iraq's oil infrastructure, considered the key to reviving that country's economy.

KBR and Halliburton have broken U.S. laws on numerous occasions while Cheney was chief executive and as far back as 1978. Moreover, the company inflated the price of some of its military contracts and defrauded the government.

Last year, KBR agreed to pay the U.S. government $2 million to settle allegations it defrauded the military while Cheney was chief executive of parent company Halliburton. KBR was accused of inflating contract prices for maintenance and repairs at Fort Ord, a now-shuttered military installation near Monterey, Calif. The lawsuit, filed in Sacramento, alleged KBR submitted false claims and made false statements in connection with 224 delivery orders between April 1994 and September 1998.

KBR and Halliburton has also paid out settlements to end investigations and lawsuits on half-a-dozen other occasions.

In 1978, a grand jury indicted KBR on charges that it colluded with a competitor on marine construction work. KBR paid a $1 million fine to settle the charges. In 1995, the U.S. fined Halliburton $3.8 million for violating a ban on exports to Libya. Four years later, a Halliburton subsidiary opens an office in Iran, despite a U.S. ban on doing business in that country. In 2001, Halliburton shareholders lash out at company executives for its pipeline project in Burma, citing that country's human-rights abuses.

Also in 2001, watchdog groups blast Cheney for placing 44 Halliburton subsidiaries in foreign tax havens.

Halliburton's dealings in six countries - Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Libya and Nigeria - show that the company's willingness to do business where human rights are not respected is a pattern that goes beyond its involvement in Burma. A May 2001 report in the Multinational Monitor identified the following countries in which Halliburton and its KBR unit did business with, despite U.S. sanctions and charges of human rights abuses.

Azerbaijan. Dick Cheney lobbied to remove Congressional sanctions against aid to Azerbaijan, sanctions imposed because of concerns about ethnic cleansing. Cheney said the sanctions were the result only of groundless campaigning by the Armenian-American lobby. In 1997, Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root bid on a major Caspian project from the Azerbaijan International Operating Company.

Indonesia. Halliburton had extensive investments and contracts in Suharto's Indonesia. The post-Suharto government during a purging of corruptly awarded contracts canceled one of its contracts. Indonesia Corruption Watch named Kellogg Brown & Root (Halliburton's engineering division) among 59 companies using collusive, corruptive and nepotistic practices in deals involving former President Suharto's family.

Iran. Dick Cheney has lobbied against the Iran-Libya Sanctions Act. Even with the Act in place, Halliburton has continued to operate in Iran. It settled with the Department of Commerce in 1997, before Cheney became CEO, over allegations relating to Iran for $15,000, without admitting any wrongdoing.

Iraq. Dick Cheney cites multilateral sanctions against Iraq as an example of sanctions he supports. Yet since the war, Halliburton-related companies helped to reconstruct Iraq's oil industry. In July 2000, the International Herald Tribune reported, "Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll-Dresser Pump Co., joint ventures that Halliburton has sold within the past year, have done work in Iraq on contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq's oil industry, under the United Nations' Oil for Food Program." A Halliburton spokesman acknowledged to the Tribune that the Dresser subsidiaries did sell oil-pumping equipment to Iraq via European agents.

Libya. Before Cheney's arrival, Halliburton was deeply involved in Libya, earning $44.7 million there in 1993. After sanctions on Libya were imposed, earnings dropped to $12.4 million in 1994. Halliburton continued doing business in Libya throughout Cheney's tenure. One Member of Congress accused the company "of undermining American foreign policy to the full extent allowed by law."

Nigeria. Local villagers have accused Halliburton of complicity in the shooting of a protester by Nigeria's Mobile Police Unit, playing a similar role to Shell and Chevron in the mobilization of this 'kill and go" unit to protect company property. Dick Cheney has been a strong advocate for preventing or eliminating federal laws that place limits on Halliburton's ability to do business in these countries. Before it awards the contract this time around, the Pentagon ought to consider that KBR, which the Army Corps of Engineers says is most qualified to extinguish Iraq’s oil well fires, supports the same terrorist regimes we’re at war with.

Copyright J Leopold 2003. For fair use only/ pour usage équitable seulement .

[home]

[Tom]

Smart businessman! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

In keeping with the holiday spirit....."sing These are a few of my favorite things!" :D

[Greyfox]

Cheney is probably a rich successful liar who played GW Bush Jr. like a fiddle.

Having said that Cheney is exactly the type of individual who is needed to counter balance the growing threats from Putin and China.
A younger clone of him would do just fine in the Presidency.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Cheney is probably a rich successful liar who played GW Bush Jr. like a fiddle.

Having said that Cheney is exactly the type of individual who is needed to counter balance the growing threats from Putin and China.
A younger clone of him would do just fine in the Presidency.

Yes, we need a president with horrible judgment.

[Greyfox]

Yes, we need a president with horrible judgment.

One's in there now.

[Saratoga_Mike]

One's in there now.

Hard to disagree with that!

[FantasticDan]

NOHjMwPTCXQ

[fast4522]

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/dick-cheney-white-house-113566.html


It is quite easy to be a critic when you really have never amounted to anything in life, but much harder to be someone who is qualified to do what the job requires.

[Tom]

I'd have like to see him water board the little puke who hosts MTP...who is that lightweight dweeb anyways? Someone's nephew? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[TJDave]

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Former Vice-President Dick Cheney on Tuesday called upon the nations of the world to “once and for all ban the despicable and heinous practice of publishing torture reports.”

“Like many Americans, I was shocked and disgusted by the Senate Intelligence Committee’s publication of a torture report today,” Cheney said in a prepared statement. “The transparency and honesty found in this report represent a gross violation of our nation’s values.”

“The publication of torture reports is a crime against all of us,” he added. “Not just those of us who have tortured in the past, but every one of us who might want to torture in the future.”

Saying that the Senate’s “horrifying publication” had inspired him to act, he vowed, “As long as I have air to breathe, I will do everything in my power to wipe out the scourge of torture reports from the face of the Earth.”

Cheney concluded his statement by calling for an international conference on the issue of torture reports. “I ask all the great nations of the world to stand up, expose the horrible practice of publishing torture reports, and say, ‘This is not who we are,’ ” Cheney said.

[PaceAdvantage]

I love Dick Cheney.....I get all giddy and warm inside when the left-leaners go apeshit over Cheney...

[PaceAdvantage]

Physical torture has been proved to be largely ineffective.By whom? How?

They don't tell you all the shit they've stopped from happening. They never will.

Your data (if it exists at all) is seriously flawed, at best.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thank you, sir.

All of us here are better human beings than those ISIS animals.
We should hold ourselves to higher standards.We do. And always have.

[FantasticDan]

Good article:

http://www.providencejournal.com/writers/edward-fitzpatrick/20141213-edward-fitzpatrick-ineffective-and-unreliable-torture-is-a-stain-on-national-honor.ece

[horses4courses]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B48Au7UCIAAJlvQ.jpg:large

[horses4courses]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4rJIn1CYAEl6DF.jpg

[Tom]

Your "Hannity is exactly right.

[horses4courses]

I get all giddy and warm inside when the left-leaners go apeshit over Cheney...

The man is delusional.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/12/cheney-torture-report-lying

"We did the right thing," Cheney told Todd. But for more than a decade now, Cheney has been peddling false information to the American public: Saddam was amassing WMDs to use against the United States, Iraq had obtained aluminum tubes so it could create a nuclear weapon, a 9/11 ringleader met with an Iraqi intelligence officer. And now: Torture wasn't torture, and it worked. After all that—though he's still afforded elder statesman status by much of the media—he probably deserves derision more than rebuttal.

[Tom]

To be fair, Obama will likely be treated as a statesman, too.
As utterly ridiculous as that is.

[horses4courses]

To be fair, Obama will likely be treated as a statesman, too.
As utterly ridiculous as that is.

Funny how that happens.
Time heals most wounds.

I doubt there is a person in this country, conservative or liberal,
who wouldn't jump at the chance of going to a BBQ down at W's ranch.
He would definitely be the best president to knock back a cold one with.
Clinton would be pretty entertaining too, though.

[Clocker]

He would definitely be the best president to knock back a cold one with.
Clinton would be pretty entertaining too, though.

W's no fun. He quit drinking many years ago. Clinton would be at his best if Hillary wasn't around. From what I saw of the White House beer summit, I'd rather drink with Biden than Obama. Or the cop. Or the Harvard prof.

[horses4courses]

W's no fun. He quit drinking many years ago. Clinton would be at his best if Hillary wasn't around. From what I saw of the White House beer summit, I'd rather drink with Biden than Obama. Or the cop. Or the Harvard prof.

You mean he didn't have a beer cracked when he choked on that pretzel?
Damn.....should be a law against that. ;)

Obama would take a bit of livening up most likely.
You're right about that.

[Clocker]

Obama would take a bit of livening up most likely.
You're right about that.

In pictures of him with a beer in his hand, he always looks like he is afraid Michelle will catch him drinking.

[PaceAdvantage]

The man is delusional.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/12/cheney-torture-report-lyingHe's not delusional. Many prominent Democrats were telling us that Saddam was amassing WMD to use against the US and our allies WELL BEFORE Bush and Cheney EVER stepped foot into the White House as Prez and Vice Prez.

Here's the video proof:

N5p-qIq32m8

[LottaKash]

In pictures of him with a beer in his hand, he always looks like he is afraid Michelle will catch him drinking.

"Man am I in DeepChit now"...

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp137/lottakash/obama-beer-thumbs-up_zpsdb4d92bc.jpg (http://s405.photobucket.com/user/lottakash/media/obama-beer-thumbs-up_zpsdb4d92bc.jpg.html)

[JustRalph]

He's not delusional. Many prominent Democrats were telling us that Saddam was amassing WMD to use against the US and our allies WELL BEFORE Bush and Cheney EVER stepped foot into the White House as Prez and Vice Prez.

Here's the video proof:

N5p-qIq32m8

Oh no you didnnnnn'ttttt!!! Break out that video!!!

[Clocker]

Oh no you didnnnnn'ttttt!!! Break out that video!!!

I'm sure that a resident lib will quickly come up with an inane graphic or a Daily Show video showing that the Dems in that video didn't really mean what they appear to be saying.

[Tom]

PA with that video is like Lex Luthor with kryptonite! :lol::lol:

[horses4courses]

"Man am I in DeepChit now"...

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp137/lottakash/obama-beer-thumbs-up_zpsdb4d92bc.jpg (http://s405.photobucket.com/user/lottakash/media/obama-beer-thumbs-up_zpsdb4d92bc.jpg.html)

I've said that many times drinking Guinness.
I was in my 20s, though, and on about my sixth pint. :lol:

[Tom]

You know, you could easily water board yourself with a pint.
Ask me how I know.....

[HUSKER55]

OK!

how do you know! :D