Mid Atlantic Coop/Stronach contracts

[SoCalCircuit]

Does anyone know what the deal with this is? I haven't been able to find too much online other than they haven't reached an agreement for simulcast yet. Does anyone know any status updates or anything?

[Brogan]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/monarch-issues-statement-on-mid-atlantic-simulcast-signal-dispute/

Of course, this is from the Stronach side and will be biased towards their position.

[grimm7]

We as the betting public are not privy to any information about what is going on. How much is Monarch asking? How far apart are they? It would be nice to know. All I am is asking for is to go to my local turf club and wager on the tracks of my choice. This sport I love is unbelieveable. I do not care anymore who is right or wrong.

[Tom]

Bottom line - customers don't count to either side.
Find tracks that are supporting you today and stop playing those that are not.

[grimm7]

Someone told me Monarch is seeking an increase from 3% to 9% from Midaltantic Coop tracks. This was from a manager at a local turf club. Without hearing anything official do not know if its true. My gut feeling is this could take awhile to settle. Right now Monarch has the upper hand with Gulfstream & Santa Anita. Hope cooler heads prevail with this impasse

[alydar]

Someone told me Monarch is seeking an increase from 3% to 9% from Midaltantic Coop tracks. This was from a manager at a local turf club. Without hearing anything official do not know if its true. My gut feeling is this could take awhile to settle. Right now Monarch has the upper hand with Gulfstream & Santa Anita. Hope cooler heads prevail with this impasse

In the past, this time of year has always been when the Stronach group goes for new pricing. It is when they are strongest and an obvious time to play their hand.Their contract renewals all come up at this time. They also try to package their weaker products as part of the deal. What they are seeking now must be a substantial increase or we would not be seeing this impasse.

I am surprised a little that tracks battle each other. Rate increases for rebate operations is one thing, but these tracks are all facing the same cost pressures. I understand that some in the group are not really operating tracks anymore, like Rockinham, but I guess they are sticking together.

[Racey]

which sucks for the bettor like the gulfstream card on Sat that we could not bet on....bad for the game

[grimm7]

Good point! If Monarch was negotiating the contract in April no one would care.

[lamboguy]

i find it interesting that they took over the Calder meet and stuck a lot of money in the place. they put a bunch of money into Santa Anita that is underperforming the real estate value by about 10 miles. they were also one of the bidders for New York racing before it was awarded to NYRA. it seems like they have some type of master plan going on where they want control over the majority of race tracks. i know they were also interested in Rockingham but that place is already locked up by another gaming group.


along with owning and operating Xpressbet, they also own breeding farms in Florida, Kentucky and Canada. it looks like they went all in and are willing to go further in the racing game while other large operator's want to back away.

it certainly looks like they have the upper hand in this contract negotiation's. i don't know how far they are going with it this time around, because it doesn't look like the tracks can survive with the amounts that they want.

[GatetoWire]

It's an insane business model. If some of the customers bet the races at Gulfstream yesterday via Xpressbet instead of going to one of these blacked out simulcast facilities then Strochach made more money.

This increase is just a slow move to eliminating this business model but it sure sucks that in many cases less handle equals more profit.
Not exactly a model that promotes growth of racing

[castaway01]

i find it interesting that they took over the Calder meet and stuck a lot of money in the place. they put a bunch of money into Santa Anita that is underperforming the real estate value by about 10 miles. they were also one of the bidders for New York racing before it was awarded to NYRA. it seems like they have some type of master plan going on where they want control over the majority of race tracks. i know they were also interested in Rockingham but that place is already locked up by another gaming group.


along with owning and operating Xpressbet, they also own breeding farms in Florida, Kentucky and Canada. it looks like they went all in and are willing to go further in the racing game while other large operator's want to back away.

it certainly looks like they have the upper hand in this contract negotiation's. i don't know how far they are going with it this time around, because it doesn't look like the tracks can survive with the amounts that they want.

Stronach doesn't have any "master plan". He wildly overspent on a variety of properties and renovations a decade ago and has floundered ever since. He did defeat Calder though, so he has one success to go with 78 failures. The only question will be what happens to those tracks when Frank eventually passes on, if any will actually stay open or if they all go to real estate developers.

[mabred]

FWIW

Heard they want to double the fee 3% to 6% from the midatlantic

tracks.Both are holding firm.

mabrb

[JustRalph]

Bottom line - customers don't count to either side.
Find tracks that are supporting you today and stop playing those that are not.

I guess we quit then.

[cj]

FWIW

Heard they want to double the fee 3% to 6% from the midatlantic

tracks.Both are holding firm.

mabrb

I'd be VERY surprised if the fee was 3%, seems low.

[alydar]

I'd be VERY surprised if the fee was 3%, seems low.

I would guess that Santa Anita and Gulfstream were already priced considerably higher than 3%, maybe Portland Meadows was at that level.

[proximity]

Does anyone know what the deal with this is?...

idk, I stopped caring a long time ago but I seem to remember these two crawling into bed together about 4-5 years ago. someone wanted to stop what would become Maryland live! and someone else was brewing energy drinks. it was a brief affair. the business equivalent of a one night stand that left both partners unsatisfied.

[TonyK@HSH]

I'd be VERY surprised if the fee was 3%, seems low.

Not all tracks are 3%, some of the higher class and volume tracks my be 4.5-5%. Kind of an upside down business model.

Let's assume a patron at Penn National makes a $1 wager on GP. For example we will use a takeout of 20% for the race at GP. This is how the take is split.

Total take 20%
GP gets 4.5 cents
PEN gets the remaining 15.5% split in the following manner:
Tax and fee 2.2 cents
Penn horseman 4.44 cents
Penn track 8.88 cents

While these numbers may not be 'perfect' they are very close.

[alydar]

Not all tracks are 3%, some of the higher class and volume tracks my be 4.5-5%. Kind of an upside down business model.

Let's assume a patron at Penn National makes a $1 wager on GP. For example we will use a takeout of 20% for the race at GP. This is how the take is split.

Total take 20%
GP gets 4.5 cents
PEN gets the remaining 15.5% split in the following manner:
Tax and fee 2.2 cents
Penn horseman 4.44 cents
Penn track 8.88 cents

While these numbers may not be 'perfect' they are very close.

Keep in mind that the track has additional expenses associated with the signal. There are decoder and tote fees and other link fees. If GP wants 6 cents instead of 4.5, the margin will be down to 6 cents or slightly less. Taxes and horsemen fees vary by track as well.

[Stillriledup]

Keep in mind that the track has additional expenses associated with the signal. There are decoder and tote fees and other link fees. If GP wants 6 cents instead of 4.5, the margin will be down to 6 cents or slightly less. Taxes and horsemen fees vary by track as well.

Their theory is take the money now and ask questions later.

At what point is there going to be nothing left to take?

[grimm7]

Good point! Every month I read handle is down. How much can they take from a shrinking handle? Just seen on the Paulick report The Midatlantic Coop reply to Monarch demands. What a mess! Both side believe they are justified. Not good for the players who just want to wager on the the tracks of their choice.

[proximity]

Total take 20%
GP gets 4.5 cents
PEN gets the remaining 15.5% split in the following manner:
Tax and fee 2.2 cents
Penn horseman 4.44 cents
Penn track 8.88 cents


as much as it pains me to defend an operation that's too cheap to put paper towels in a casino bathroom, uncle frank should consider the reverse of this if he wants to talk about what's fair. as i alluded to in the other thread about this, santa anita wouldn't even show penn national for most of the history of simulcasting so pen never even had a chance to get the 3.0 cents per dollar of what the california players would have bet on their cards.

[MYKE]

I have had twelve years of stronach and don't believe his interest is in promoting horseracing to be a better sport for the bettors. His only concern is making money for stronach's pocket. I don't play stronach race tracks except when breeder's cup is at santa anita.

[alydar]

I am not sure but I think California simulcast rules limit how much Santa Anita
or any track can show. What does Gulfstream provide at their facility? I agree with much of your point, it is not a level playing field, not even close.

[alydar]

I have had twelve years of stronach and don't believe his interest is in promoting horseracing to be a better sport for the bettors. His only concern is making money for stronach's pocket. I don't play stronach race tracks except when breeder's cup is at santa anita.

There isn't enough time to discuss Stronach and his inept management of racetracks. The turnover of employees and ownership of tracks show how shortsighted he has been. He has lost a few fortunes, and screwed more than a few people along the way. Meanwhile he seems no worse off. Why Tampa or anyone else chooses to work with them is a mystery to me.

[castaway01]

I have had twelve years of stronach and don't believe his interest is in promoting horseracing to be a better sport for the bettors. His only concern is making money for stronach's pocket. I don't play stronach race tracks except when breeder's cup is at santa anita.

Stronach was a big topic here years ago, back when he tore down Gulfstream and was on a buying frenzy. I have no problem with him trying to make money for himself, but not only have his ideas never helped horse racing, but they've mostly been spectacular financial failures for Stronach himself, to the point he had to reorganize his primary business to keep the racing side going. For a while he also found a way to lose money with his casino, though I assume he turned that around or the casino would not be open. From those old threads, I think those who didn't feel Stronach was a visionary or genius were proven correct.

[NJ Stinks]

I have had twelve years of stronach and don't believe his interest is in promoting horseracing to be a better sport for the bettors. His only concern is making money for stronach's pocket. I don't play stronach race tracks except when breeder's cup is at santa anita.

Here's a few rather important points in Stronach's defense:

1. Laurel has a fantastic new turf course

2. Gulfstream has fantastic new turf and dirt courses

3. Pimlico's dirt track has a great cushion today because of Stronach. IMO, Pimlico is currently the fairest dirt track to all running styles in the country.

The improvements above make the sport much better for this bettor.

[Tall One]

Here's a few rather important points in Stronach's defense:

1. Laurel has a fantastic new turf course

2. Gulfstream has fantastic new turf and dirt courses

3. Pimlico's dirt track has a great cushion today because of Stronach. IMO, Pimlico is currently the fairest dirt track to all running styles in the country.

The improvements above make the sport much better for this bettor.


I thought it looked like there was an upgrade done on their lawn..did they add an inner course or just make it wider, NJ?

[cj]

I thought it looked like there was an upgrade done on their lawn..did they add an inner course or just make it wider, NJ?

This isn't really that new, been at least a few years. It was widened, not sure what else was done.

[gheuks]

It was widened and has 5 different courses that can be utilized by different rail placements. It's similar to gulfstreams set up.

[proximity]

there is no defense of mr stronach's mishandling of the whole maryland racino situation. laurel has an improved turf course? is pen gaming good for racing because penn national has had a great turf course for years? NO.

mr stronach could have reached out to the thousands of poker players (as well as dealers) at marylandlive! with great on-track "rewards" but instead of trying to create new players he instead likes to make it harder for existing players to put down a bet. that this man has so much power is troubling.

[Stillriledup]

Here's a few rather important points in Stronach's defense:

1. Laurel has a fantastic new turf course

2. Gulfstream has fantastic new turf and dirt courses

3. Pimlico's dirt track has a great cushion today because of Stronach. IMO, Pimlico is currently the fairest dirt track to all running styles in the country.

The improvements above make the sport much better for this bettor.

Improvements aren't worth it if you have to pay thru the nose to get them.

One thing about uncle frank, you want to play, you gotta pay.

[Stillriledup]

Question for the masses:

If Stronach hardballs his signal, and it doesn't affect you at this point because the takeout is the same and then things get settled and you don't care if he hardballed someone else because he didn't hardball you, but, what happens when he hardballs you next year and raises the takeout a few points?

After all, if he plans on raising revenue month after month and year after year, at some point he's going to squeeze all he can out of other tracks and simo outlets taking his signal, guess what, you're next with a big takeout raise, the revenue has to come from somewhere, right?

[cj]

Question for the masses:

If Stronach hardballs his signal, and it doesn't affect you at this point because the takeout is the same and then things get settled and you don't care if he hardballed someone else because he didn't hardball you, but, what happens when he hardballs you next year and raises the takeout a few points?

After all, if he plans on raising revenue month after month and year after year, at some point he's going to squeeze all he can out of other tracks and simo outlets taking his signal, guess what, you're next with a big takeout raise, the revenue has to come from somewhere, right?

The simulcast model is unfair to racetracks that have a more desirable signal and I have no problem with them trying to get more of the money for themselves.

The problem arises when they raise the fees on ADWs and cut into rebates. The model may not have been fair to begin with to racetracks, but unlike deals between tracks, the signal fee has a direct impact on bettors. People are simply not going to bet as much at a higher effective takeout. Maybe it will be good for players long term as whales leave the game, but I don't see how it will be good for horse racing overall to be honest.

[proximity]

The simulcast model is unfair to racetracks that have a more desirable signal and I have no problem with them trying to get more of the money for themselves.


i do have a problem with that because main co-op players like parx and pen are providing 200+ cards a year for monarch tracks to take bets on. and at the higher rate since the signals aren't as "desirable." so a lot more cards and races than what your typical monarch track is giving back in return and at a higher rate.

[Stillriledup]

The simulcast model is unfair to racetracks that have a more desirable signal and I have no problem with them trying to get more of the money for themselves.

The problem arises when they raise the fees on ADWs and cut into rebates. The model may not have been fair to begin with to racetracks, but unlike deals between tracks, the signal fee has a direct impact on bettors. People are simply not going to bet as much at a higher effective takeout. Maybe it will be good for players long term as whales leave the game, but I don't see how it will be good for horse racing overall to be honest.

No doubt, if they cut into price sensitive bettors who could take it or leave it, they'll leave it and handle will go down.

[foregoforever]

i do have a problem with that because main co-op players like parx and pen are providing 200+ cards a year for monarch tracks to take bets on. and at the higher rate since the signals aren't as "desirable." so a lot more cards and races than what your typical monarch track is giving back in return and at a higher rate.

Here's the list of M-A Cooperative tracks: Parx Racing, Penn National, Freehold Raceway, Atlantic City Race Course, Delaware Park, Charles Town, Colonial Downs, Pocono Downs, Harrah's Philadelphia, Dover Downs, Harrington Raceway, Ocean Downs, Suffolk Downs, Rockingham Park, Rosecroft, Sam Houston, Thistledown, Mahoning Valley Race Course, Dayton Raceway, Northfield Park, Retama Park, Belterra Park and Plainridge Race Course.

Yes, there are a few on the list that run a fair amount of thoroughbred races, but there are also a lot that run zero.

Also, if memory serves, the cooperative only purchases signals from other tracks. The members sell their own signals individually.

[elhelmete]

Here's the list of M-A Cooperative tracks: Parx Racing, Penn National, Freehold Raceway, Atlantic City Race Course, Delaware Park, Charles Town, Colonial Downs, Pocono Downs, Harrah's Philadelphia, Dover Downs, Harrington Raceway, Ocean Downs, Suffolk Downs, Rockingham Park, Rosecroft, Sam Houston, Thistledown, Mahoning Valley Race Course, Dayton Raceway, Northfield Park, Retama Park, Belterra Park and Plainridge Race Course.

Yes, there are a few on the list that run a fair amount of thoroughbred races, but there are also a lot that run zero.

Also, if memory serves, the cooperative only purchases signals from other tracks. The members sell their own signals individually.

3 maybe 4 run no live racing at all.

[elhelmete]

I'm not the most knowledgeable person on how this works but...

I almost wonder if there was a way to tie signal fees to simo handle? Could that make it a bit more fair and is it even feasible? There's something that just seems inherently wrong with, say, Parx having the same deal as Rockingham.

[lamboguy]

I'm not the most knowledgeable person on how this works but...

I almost wonder if there was a way to tie signal fees to simo handle? Could that make it a bit more fair and is it even feasible? There's something that just seems inherently wrong with, say, Parx having the same deal as Rockingham.Rockingham probably handles 5 times more than Parx on those signals, i don't think that's a good reason to charge them less than Parx that puts on a live product.

[elhelmete]

Rockingham probably handles 5 times more than Parx on those signals, i don't think that's a good reason to charge them less than Parx that puts on a live product.

That's sort of my point...balancing the signal fee with how much handle any given venue is adding to the tote (I haven't been to the Rock in 15 years). I suppose it wouldn't matter whether there's live racing or not but I would probably count that factor for something.

[Stillriledup]

I'm not the most knowledgeable person on how this works but...

I almost wonder if there was a way to tie signal fees to simo handle? Could that make it a bit more fair and is it even feasible? There's something that just seems inherently wrong with, say, Parx having the same deal as Rockingham.

A pretty simple way would be have a sliding scale where the more revenue you bring in, the better rate you get and it doesn't matter if you're running live racing or not.

[Stillriledup]

That's sort of my point...balancing the signal fee with how much handle any given venue is adding to the tote (I haven't been to the Rock in 15 years). I suppose it wouldn't matter whether there's live racing or not but I would probably count that factor for something.

I think the gut feeling is that live racing will bring more actual people to the plant and therefore, there will be more people in the house....BUT, those people are there for live racing and even the degenerates will probably bet less simo than they would if there was ONLY simo available.

Some of these simo centers get crowded, people don't care if there's live racing, as long as they open the SAM machines and let them bet, they're happy as clams.

[elhelmete]

I think the gut feeling is that live racing will bring more actual people to the plant and therefore, there will be more people in the house....BUT, those people are there for live racing and even the degenerates will probably bet less simo than they would if there was ONLY simo available.

Some of these simo centers get crowded, people don't care if there's live racing, as long as they open the SAM machines and let them bet, they're happy as clams.

Something tells me that if we put the tech/CFO types from, say, Uber, AirBNB, and a couple others in a room, and with the right data, they could figure out an equitable market solution.

[proximity]

Here's the list of M-A Cooperative tracks: Parx Racing, Penn National, Freehold Raceway, Atlantic City Race Course, Delaware Park, Charles Town, Colonial Downs, Pocono Downs, Harrah's Philadelphia, Dover Downs, Harrington Raceway, Ocean Downs, Suffolk Downs, Rockingham Park, Rosecroft, Sam Houston, Thistledown, Mahoning Valley Race Course, Dayton Raceway, Northfield Park, Retama Park, Belterra Park and Plainridge Race Course.

Yes, there are a few on the list that run a fair amount of thoroughbred races, but there are also a lot that run zero.

Also, if memory serves, the cooperative only purchases signals from other tracks. The members sell their own signals individually.

i'm just focused on main players like pen and parx that run a lot of live cards and take a lot of signals..... and have for years as well as having two of the oldest (maybe the oldest?) account wagering operations in the country in telebet (pen) and phonebet (parx). and i'd suggest that mr stronach focus on these relationships as well, but if he wants to worry about sucking the maximum out of the six people that go to pocono.....

[proximity]

Rockingham probably handles 5 times more than Parx on those signals, i don't think that's a good reason to charge them less than Parx that puts on a live product.

i find that hard to believe with the otbs parx has as well as phonebet....? :confused:

[cj]

i do have a problem with that because main co-op players like parx and pen are providing 200+ cards a year for monarch tracks to take bets on. and at the higher rate since the signals aren't as "desirable." so a lot more cards and races than what your typical monarch track is giving back in return and at a higher rate.

The problem is nobody bets those races from Penn and Parx.

[cj]

i'm just focused on main players like pen and parx that run a lot of live cards and take a lot of signals..... and have for years as well as having two of the oldest (maybe the oldest?) account wagering operations in the country in telebet (pen) and phonebet (parx). and i'd suggest that mr stronach focus on these relationships as well, but if he wants to worry about sucking the maximum out of the six people that go to pocono.....

But it isn't Stonach that has decided they will all be priced the same, that is the Co-op.

[lamboguy]

The problem is nobody bets those races from Penn and Parx.that's true, otherwise they would go up in their signal fees with the other guys.

[proximity]

But it isn't Stonach that has decided they will all be priced the same, that is the Co-op.

the complaint i was addressing with that post was the monarch concerns about co-op tracks that are freeloading by running extremely abbreviated live schedules or none at all. this certainly doesn't describe tracks like pen or parx that run 200+ cards a year.

i see lamboguy is suggesting that one of these places (rockingham) does indeed do tremendous volume but most of these places are so small that i don't see it being worth frank's time to even worry about.

[grimm7]

This is great. Since I retired I usually go to the local turf club 4 to 5 days a week. Dued to Monarch and Midatlantic coop impasse I can only play Aqueduct and Mahoney Valley. I guess I will go Christmas shopping. Is this what they want for players to stay home?

[proximity]

as a reminder of who exactly we're dealing with, in Maryland we are coming up on the 10th anniversary of uncle Frank wheeling out the famous horse wizard machines that would save racing everywhere!! :rolleyes:

TEN YEARS AGO he was that far gone. :faint:

[Stillriledup]

as a reminder of who exactly we're dealing with, in Maryland we are coming up on the 10th anniversary of uncle Frank wheeling out the famous horse wizard machines that would save racing everywhere!! :rolleyes:

TEN YEARS AGO he was that far gone. :faint:

The wonderful wizard of oz!!
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17461 :D

[SoCalCircuit]

I did enjoy that magna pick 5 from a couple years ago.